Doing my best to reclaim some value out of my banned cards haha.
@CoilingSliver
16 сағат бұрын
@@BoshNRollyou could've included "adressing the drama" to appease the algorithm even more
@amazingpeptobismol
15 сағат бұрын
'the commander situation is insane...' would make the algo go crazy tbh
@Kryptnyt
10 сағат бұрын
@@amazingpeptobismol Red arrows on the thumbnail pointing at things!!!
@emerson685
16 сағат бұрын
22:36 in my experience, rule zero really doesn’t work. It’s not even that people are disingenuous (though that can be the case), it’s that people are not honest with themselves or are delusional or just have a bias with their own deck construction. Basically, I’ve had a lot of failed rule 0 conversations, and I’m not a person who is scared of conflict or tough conversations or anything. I’m a freakin lawyer, I do that stuff all day. But Rule 0 requires all parties to have a consistent view of the target power, a shared view of the power of a certain deck, and an honest representation of a deck by the deck’s constructor. I just think it’s an unrealistic system and it harkens back to a time of commander when it was a small, kitchen table format. But that’s not what it is anymore. As always. Thanks for the great content!
@villanx1
14 сағат бұрын
I agree. Rule 0 works great if you're playing with a consistent play group. But that doesn't seem to be the norm anymore. Most people playing EDH are doing it at LGSs, college clubs, Magic Cons, or other public gathering like that (or online) and that's where R0 breaks down. And like you said, it's not always because of "Spike the Pubstomper Jerk" rolled up, sometimes it's just people not realizing their 7/10 deck is a lot worse or better than the other 7/10 decks at the table.
@frankthomas2410
14 сағат бұрын
@@villanx1I hate how players can’t threat assess powerful cards, vs powerful synergies. Being targeted by the table because a has turn 1 mana crypt or sol ring but greedy kept and has no land drops makes 0 sense. Target the snowballers lol😂, not the player discarding to hand size
@gabecastillo1634
14 сағат бұрын
@@villanx1 I highly highly doubt most people playing edh are doing it at an lgs and think that’s a very far fetched assumption. Usually people have friends that play or their own pods, not to mention thinks like spelltable and mtgo exist
@Dhips.
13 сағат бұрын
My normal pod does not rule zero the way I've seen elsewhere. We've all played together at the same table for 5-10 years, rotating a player or two depending on who's busy or whatever. We know what decks everyone in the pod plays. We have an understanding when a new deck is built it will have been as highly tuned as it can be. Our "rule zero" comes down to "Okay what deck you playing?" Other regulars to the store knows what our table is about and joins with no issue, they pull out their high powered deck. Sometimes a new player joins and I do feel bad when they say "upgraded pre-con." and we try and power down or pull punches, but they've always been good sports about it and just want to play a game caring little if they win. The only time we've seen a person rage on us; we learned he does that in EVERY store in the county. tl;dr My pod is mostly friends who like to play level 9-10 decks together on Fridays for a few hours.
@laurelkeeper
13 сағат бұрын
Yeah, it's pretty clear rule zero just... doesn't work unless you have a consistent, close playgroup. For a myriad of reasons.
@Crimmando
16 сағат бұрын
This is such a thoughtful, comprehensive video. Thank you for doing this Brian.
@Cowter4
13 сағат бұрын
It sucks that the people that need to hear this most are the people that turned the video off when Brian was laying the ground rules
@BoshNRoll
13 сағат бұрын
FWIW this video has a lot of comments and I've only banned 2 people today. :)
@bradcallahan3546
Минут бұрын
Anyone that supports this ban doesn’t belong in the commander community. End of story.
@85mcarnold
16 сағат бұрын
Just listening to BoshNRoll laying down the ground rules for the conversation I just want to stand and applaud. Way to encourage respect and civility in this crazy internet world.
@probably_a_human
11 сағат бұрын
Not all kings wear a crown
@Lux.Ferrous136
7 сағат бұрын
Bosh is the best. That's why we're all here!
@neenee-bs3jc
33 минут бұрын
Imagine getting robbed and then some cucked nerd giving rules to you on how to voice your frustrations.
@danielbechelli9428
15 сағат бұрын
Hey Brian, long time lurker here. Just wanted to say that I could not be more grateful for your maturity and levelheadedness when addressing the community. Your videos are a treat to watch, gameplay, commentary and humour alike. Thanks! And, of course, smoke em if you got'em bosh pack
@deli_9697
17 сағат бұрын
Ban pack sell them if you got em
@martinschafer6002
16 сағат бұрын
First 3-4 minutes already show why yours is the best MtG channel. Only you could say this and open a video like this. Dry, sober and rational and yet funny.
@jamiebruner8463
10 сағат бұрын
@@martinschafer6002 I want to be more like Brian, and want to associate with more people like Brian.
@flusterfluff
15 сағат бұрын
Two things: 1) I'm genuinely glad you're getting so much content out of this. The shorts were hilarious 2) Setting ground rules like that in the start is a good idea. Lets keep all discussion about it civilized, regardless of if we agree on things or not.
@ItsKeb
16 сағат бұрын
Brian, thank you for being such a reasonable human. Even with these bans hitting you personally, im glad you weren't one of the reactionary people who let that alone decide their thoughts. Seriously a pillar of, at least my, magic experience and community
@davediplock1273
14 сағат бұрын
Bang on. Two weeks ago my 16 yr old had just liquidated his Pokeman collection and bought an Ixalan Mana Crypt. He’s left sour on the game. Tough lesson for a kid on portfolio diversification. WoTC has lost us as collectors and now we will treat cards as game pieces only. Proxies for expensive cards are now our go to.
@samwhite360
6 сағат бұрын
agree!
@darthsnarf
5 сағат бұрын
ive decided to sell anything over 10 and order proxies of those ones i have in decks, not worth getting burned, even though they say they plan no more bans
@MrBurrito
3 сағат бұрын
welcome to investing, kid.
@obsid2h888
16 сағат бұрын
20:00 'nobody asked for black lotus but just your commander' i've seen several custom cards to that effect, i think lots of people have thought of every version of 'black lotus but'. and wizards should have known from all the historical examples not to print black lotus. you can talk about the 'clarity of designing the game for thirty years' but they're printing more format breakers every year - it seems like what they're clear on is how to get money from whales, not how to make the game enjoyable. of course rule 0 doesn't work and never worked, especially in public settings. the notion of rules is to solve disputes between players and not create more of them. it's not a 'rule' if what it says is that everyone at the table has to come to an arbitrary agreement about which otherwise similar cards are morally acceptable or not.
@alecwoodard9464
13 сағат бұрын
It's been up and down. I know this take is ice-cold, but I think the supplemental product is the problem. Pioneer, for example, has been extremely stable and fair to such a degree as to be lackadaisical since the combo banning, but it seems like every other format has been constantly on fire throughout this entire period. The main distinction, I think, is the supplementary product.
@obsid2h888
8 сағат бұрын
@@alecwoodard9464 i don't think jumpstart or battlebond were problems, i know conspiracy created some controversies but is now a valued part of eternal formats... lotr, pushed to hell, has approximately one objectionable card, at least that i can think of... nothing from fallout or warhammer is close to taking a ban... i want to finely delineate, there are big problems with wotc design which is cropping up in sets designed specifically for modern and commander, or for the 'power level' of those formats. i think having to live in standard helps keep some bad design tendencies in check, but does exacerbate, for example, the amount of text on cards.
@LibertyMonk
4 сағат бұрын
@@obsid2h888 when they say "supplemental product", they actually mean "specifically designed to be attractive (more than pushed, hopefully not broken enough to get banned, but it's ok if it eventually is) to commander players, so they'll buy and open pack." Warhammer and Fallout are both sealed decks with known lists, then collectors boosters for alternate treatments only, no chase mythic rules text. LotR only needed exactly one pushed card to sell packs, exactly how only Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus will sell packs of the sets they're in. And LotR also has Orcish Bowmasters, in addition to The One Ring. Set-deck-list products don't have chase cards in them, there's no chase if you can just buy the product.
@derekcline950
17 сағат бұрын
10 minutes in and already love this video. Lots of truth that needs to be reiterated every couple of years
@Phnxkon
15 сағат бұрын
Cards designed specifically for commander should have never happened. Commander should never be a consideration for WotC. It was far better before they started meddling
@zanewarner8372
15 сағат бұрын
On the bit about rule 0: I think there's tension between talking about how rule 0, not bannings, is the place for fast mana to be handled, and also talking about this taking money out of people's collections. I do agree that rule 0's where this ought to be handled-- in an ideal world every game would play that stuff solely by the players involved's preferences, and the ban list wouldn't even matter for anything but cEDH. But in that world, prices wouldn't be affected by a banning except to whatever extent they're affected by cEDH, since casual players wouldn't have any different level of demand for the card at all. We'll see how things shake out, but it seems to me like prices are going to drop in a type of way that indicates people in practice really just don't follow rule 0 all that much, and banning with respect to casual gameplay actually is a good move, even if maybe in an ideal world it wouldn't be. So I guess I'm squaring this circle by saying "yep, rule 0 is basically fake, it's good advice but not advice people are good at taking"
@domotoro3552
11 сағат бұрын
I might add: rule 0 is only not helpful when playing ‘in the wild’. if you have a consistent playgroup, it is a great idea and worth exploring.
@alecwoodard9464
11 сағат бұрын
It would be really nice if Rule 0 was effective, but it is in practice pretty exclusionary. Like I've said across the thread, expecting discussions like this to be resolved at the table makes it difficult for women, people in marginalized groups, and even white guys who don't like conflict to feel able to engage in the discussion. I think as enfranchised Magic players who are generally reasonable and empathetic people - and used to arguing over triggers - it can be difficult to see those problems, but it doesn't make them less important to the game's long term health.
@alecwoodard9464
11 сағат бұрын
@@domotoro3552 For sure! It's not a helpful idea for game stores and larger events, but it's a great idea if you have a consistent and/or lightly rotating pod.
@brysonsmith1523
16 сағат бұрын
holy was not aware the extent to how based brian is
@ZoltarDeathNnja
17 сағат бұрын
I had one deck that was devastated by the JLo and Mana Crypt bans. I don't even really play them unfairly - I just love my big, dumb colorless artifact deck with an Eldrazi top end.
@atmaximum
16 сағат бұрын
aaaawwwhhhhh, poor you
@ZoltarDeathNnja
16 сағат бұрын
@@atmaximum I mean, I was annoyed at the announcement, but not financially. I can recover. I can modify the deck. I was given one of my mana crypts. I opened the others in packs. I bought my Jeweled Lotus when it was first released and wasn't yet all that expensive.
@pascalraskal9347
13 сағат бұрын
Everybody likes diverent stuff stay on path brother and stomp people like atmaximum with Eldrazi 😂
@Jeremy-gy7me
21 минут бұрын
@@atmaximum wow, you are the exact person bosh was roasting in his intro.
@michaelkierum42
15 сағат бұрын
The bans dont break any of my decks but fast mana has never been the annoying factor of explosive decks. id much rather weather a mana crypt explosive start than 1 more thassa oracle dexk that goldfishes for 30 min looking for its line.
@jmanwild87
16 сағат бұрын
17:20 I think what happened with Voja is that commander players play wraths, but they don't normally play that many and Voja if they got off to a good start without lotus basically required a wrath on turn 4. so, in the casual mindset if you saw Voja across the table you had to hope you drew one of your 3ish wraths by then. However, Voja never really played lotus. they just played elfball. Really, I think where jeweled lotus was a problem however was in decks like Niv Mizzet Parun or tatyova or any of the hundreds of value engine commanders in casual circles. Where you could take advantage of the fact that plenty of casual decks are removal light and get tons of advantage. Basically, in casual, jeweled lotus helped power out a lot of nongames thanks to bad deckbuilding practices.
@hasky3183
16 сағат бұрын
22:00 Hey. We have a small community here in Prague about 50 people and even here the Rule 0 doesn't work. There's always some salty people. And it's not like we don't know each other and yet, Rule 0 doesn't work for us. "you didn't tell me you do this thing", "this isn't this power level", "I can't deal with this and you didn't tell me". Used to own many commander decks but this got me out now I have one just for occasions.
@Omniczech
15 сағат бұрын
Reasonable adult has to remind magic players to be normal for just once in their life, film at 11.
@tsimehcMTG
17 сағат бұрын
As a noted freak, even I won't have the gall to type "Cry harder" ... oops.
@viviblue7277
12 сағат бұрын
Oh my gosh THATS how nadu got printed!?! That’s an atrocity. Hearing they actually brought pros in to test the set gives me renewed hope and hearing that the commander team is breaking design that much makes me understand why this commander design break is such a trend in magic lately.
@33elk
15 сағат бұрын
I talked about these bans in a twitter thread, a bit on my podcast with Trinket Mage, and also I'm releasing a video today about Sol Ring about why it dodged a ban (at least from a casual lens). But I suppose I'll drop a thing here because I legit find these bans so interesting to talk about. I am not into using proxies much like you, for much the same reason! Also not anti-proxy, I don't like money being a gate for people to have a reason to get out and play games with others. It is no secret that losing money SUCKS, we've surely all felt it before, so don't take this as me rubbing salt in a wound but I am legitimately very happy to see people say "this has shaken my confidence in collecting" as a "gotcha." It honestly makes me happy to hear this. I think it's not a good mindset to have an expectation of a "cash out" about a card game. All money you put into magic cards you should consider GONE, you should not spend money you don't have expecting to have the chance to "break the piggy bank" as it were. I will still buy magic cards even after this ban, multi-hundred dollar decks, I've always been buying cards with the expectation that I would not get the money I spent back. Money out of the way, these bans make me a little scared for cEDH since remora/rhystic already owns the format and these accelerators (especially dockside) being banned makes rhystic/remora that much stronger. From a casual perspective I love these bans as someone who would see crypt/lotus every 5 games or so to much groaning of the table. "What about sol ring?" Sol ring is stronger than crypt, but is also the cheaper card as you said it is super cheap. Also the point of the ban as they mentioned wasn't to ERADICATE the games where 5 mana happens on turn 2-3 but to reduce the frequency. They literally say "we aren't trying to eliminate fast starts." Anyway, the rule 0 argument also goes both ways, you can just rule 0 crypt back into your coinflip deck or your cedh deck and its honestly better that way than the rule 0 it out argument. Honestly, all in all, I hope that this means we'll get less jeweled lotuses. I hope people spend more carefully. I can't really comment on the tinfoil hat stuff besides the fact that it certainly doesn't look good that mana crypt was banned same year we got a chase reprint of it RC connected to wotc or not. Overall though I am happier than I am sad about the bans, also play cube.
@gabrote42
14 сағат бұрын
Got any comments on Jaws of the Conclave and why it was a menace?
@Pyroshax
13 сағат бұрын
I would reconsider whether one should celebrate the loss in confidence. In commander's defining philosophy document, they clearly state that a core tenet of the format is to be STABLE. I think in a way, these high card prices were not intended to be some sort of lower risk parallel to building a stock portfolio, but a vote of confidence in how the format was maintained, and its stability as a projected long-term hobby. Just because a card is expensive does not mean people also associate it with a confident investment, as is clearly seen in other formats. Players do not cite a confidence in collecting regarding powerful cards just because they view magic as an investment, but moreso that the confidence that the community no longer feels used to be part of commander's brand and identity.
@TheTurophile
12 сағат бұрын
Elk, the point which Boshnroll raises in the video is that the collectors and store owners who are affected monetarily by this ban are subsidizing the game. He asks, how can you consider yourself a member of the community if you are happy at the misfortune of the stakeholders and LGS's who prop the game up? I don't think your comment properly addresses this but I'm eager to hear your full thoughts in your upcoming video. Personally, I have a lot of problems with his rationalization here because he's leading towards the argument that "you are not allowed to be uncomfortable with capitalism if you participate in it." It's a fallacious false equivalency. And it's the kind of argument a person who is heavily monetarily invested would make.
@domotoro3552
11 сағат бұрын
cannot agree more that people shouldn’t be expecting to make money back out of their hobby. I would even extend this to tournament entry fees: I personally pay them expecting the fee to be a price to play a few rounds in a fun tournament setting, and if I win it’s gravy.
@gabrote42
11 сағат бұрын
@@domotoro3552 My rationale is that of they wanted to cash out, they had a shot already. If the ban had happened later, the same thing would have been said. It's like the parable of the horseowning farmer. It went that the farmer was poor and wanted to feed his horse as little as possible to dave money, so he cuts the rice portion slightly every day until he's feeding the horse like a fistful of rice, then the horse drops dead and the farmer says "Darn, just as I was about to find out the right amount". The farmer here should have stopped when the horse started looking worse for wear, or he had cut the rations in half, before he was left with no horse. This is the same. If they wanted to cash out, they should have.
@aribdis
17 сағат бұрын
4 minutes in and BoshnRoll makes a reference to the BBC World Service. Whether it’s pop culture references, music references, or a reference to one of my primary sources of news, I find myself, time and again, thinking BoshnRoll is just a really cool dude. Thanks for being an awesome steward of the MTG community man!
@alecwoodard9464
12 сағат бұрын
If only Normal Island Domestic was half as based as World Service. I usually listen to DemoNow or NPR, because of how much the World Service team has to toe the transphobia line due to domestic UK issues, but it's a good station all around.
@tellable9425
14 сағат бұрын
>:( WHAT IS THIS BOSH!? I thought you were the united nations? Can't you just use swords to plowshares to end all world conflict?
@ohno5559
15 сағат бұрын
I don't like this idea in the community where high card prices are justified by the presumed ability to resell for as much or more. Best case scenario it leads to drama around ban decisions like this and a high barrier of entry into the community, worst case scenario it could lead to an actual economic bubble type situation.
@nimblent
17 сағат бұрын
This has to been one of the best videos about this topic, level-headed arguments and opinions. I really appreciate your vision in this kind of topics (as someone pretty new into magic), thanks for all your work!
@dave-kt7sj
16 сағат бұрын
I don't own an sol ring. I do own earthcraft though...
@BoshNRoll
15 сағат бұрын
The authorities are on their way to collect you.
@christopherlundgren1700
10 сағат бұрын
@@BoshNRollSurely the authorities are simply on the way to deliver a small pile of Sol Rings. What am I paying taxes for if not that.
@Conspirachu
16 сағат бұрын
It's wild online discourse has gotten to a place where ban list updates in Magic need disclaimers like this.These updates have occurred for longer than most of the people trolling have been alive.
@BasilPappas
16 сағат бұрын
Great video, great intro. Sorry you have had to deal with people hating in the comments. keep doing what you do man. We all need to be just a little bit nicer in the world.
@simonteesdale9752
15 сағат бұрын
Honestly, all the "just rule 0 it" talk has me wanting to put out a video/write an essay on when/where rule 0 works and what it is. Rule 0 is for established playgroups to customise the game to suit them. IT DOES NOT WORK FOR PICK-UP GAMES AT LGS'S OR CONVENTIONS. The role of the commander banlist is to facilitate better pick-up games by banning the cards players fail to self-select to the appropriate powerlevel. This is why Golos is banned, but Thoracle + Consult is legal. Mana/Value cards tend to be underestimated by casual players, while win the game cards tend to be overestimated.
@laurelkeeper
13 сағат бұрын
This. Doesn't work for online play, either.
@Ivan-Kh
12 сағат бұрын
That's a good summary of the situation with Rule 0. (Casual) EDH is, at its core, a playgroup construction game, like D&D. If you assemble a good playgroup, you will have success playing casual EDH (which is to say you'll have fun). If you don't, you won't. All of that is essentially regardless of the relative power levels of the decks involved. Once you've assembled a good playgroup, Rule 0 is there so you can further tailor the experience to suit the desires/tastes/collections of the group. Sitting down with some random strangers is leaving the core aspect of the format (which, again, is the construction of a good playgroup) to chance. It might work out by chance, and it might not. Rule 0 doesn't change that, it just might make the game a bit more balanced in power level. But it's vastly, vastly more fun to get blown out by one cEDH deck stomping a bunch of precons among a close group of friends who can enjoy the spectacle than it is to play in a pod of four perfectly balanced decks where the opponents don't know how to be reasonable people.
@awesomesauceaaron
11 сағат бұрын
This. Rule 0 only really works for those lucky enough to have a dedicated playgroup full of reasonable people that think similarly to you. What if you can't reliably find 4 people to play with and have to play with people at your LGS? What if you actually have friends to play with, but some people want a high power level and some want low? What if you dont play regularly enough to hammer out a rule 0 banlist?
@bradleytinney6969
17 сағат бұрын
Its fun and interesting to listen to Brian's inter monolog.
@andrewpalella9923
16 сағат бұрын
As a every once in awhile at my local shop edh player I can attest to mixed results with rule 0. I think rule 0 works when youre at a table with people who want to have fun first and winning is a happy occassion. Some of my best memories playing edh are games where i lost. Unfortunately i think a lot of people tie their self worth to winning
@YaRr1707
16 сағат бұрын
Some people sadly just have shitty lives and shitty jobs and just enjoy pubstomping new players and winning every game is how they feel good about themselves
@the_enamelator
17 сағат бұрын
Oh man, just from the intro, it's obvious the negativity and harassment thrown around. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, even when you weren't involved with the decision. I can't imagine how much hate the people involved have received. Hope they are doing okay.
@PinkPajamas464
5 сағат бұрын
I read the comments on Hareruya's video on this to see what Japanese people thought about it. It was certainly a lot less chaotic. One major point that they brought up is the optics argument for why the power 9 were banned. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt were seen as expensive staples needed in order to buy onto the format, and this ban would make the format more accessible to newer players. The sentiment of lost value was there, but nowhere near the level of not wanting to play the game anymore.
@NormalTheBand
16 сағат бұрын
Jeweled Lotus should have never been printed, full stop. It was clearly broken, it was printed to be clearly broken, and the RC should have banned the card before it saw the light of day
@poolfuhrer
15 сағат бұрын
it existed to move packs, bad design and unhealthy for the state of the game.
@calebporter6237
14 сағат бұрын
Jeweled is not broken brother
@calebporter6237
14 сағат бұрын
Is dark ritual broken ?
@gregorybeemer428
14 сағат бұрын
@@calebporter6237Never played a game of EDH or cEDH, but even I know Jeweled Lotus doesn't just make black mana AND it costs zero making this comparison mute.
@laurelkeeper
14 сағат бұрын
@@calebporter6237 yes lol, and this is vastly better if you're in a deck that wants it
@viviblue7277
11 сағат бұрын
I’m big on the benefit of the doubt. Slightly suspicious timing is not enough to make me suspect the rules committee put off banning these cards. If anything the reprints were likely a large part of the cause for the ban as they introduced more copies of these cards into casual play.
@dakodastevens8972
15 сағат бұрын
I think the bans, in general, make the format better, purely from a quality of games perspective (for tables below high power or cEDH). But these cards have caused issues in the format for collective decades, and after more or less taking the "rule 0 will fix it" approach, it's pretty unacceptable to nuke 400$ with of cardboard from orbit, imo. If you are going to ban these sorts of cards they really need to be banned early, before people and stores invest so much money into them, otherwise you just need to accept them as part of the format. This also undermines consumer confidence massively, my group doesn't really play with fast mana beyond sol ring so I lost a single dockside (I did open a full art double masters vault though a couple years ago so go me), but I do own a lot of the really good tutors, smothering tithes, rhystics and things like that, and I personally worry they might ban them, and I don't even know if I want to buy more of them at this point. They aren't as expensive but I still have hundreds of dollars (probably more) tied up in them.
@weatoria
16 сағат бұрын
Im having a kid soon and I was considering what card they should hold first @13:17 I now know what card to use.
@BoshNRoll
16 сағат бұрын
You really don't get a choice.
@thedoh.
15 сағат бұрын
There is one other nuance that you maybe overlooked (due to your privilege har har har): For someone like myself who is looking to enter the edh/cedh space, I see these prominent cards that were staples of the format for years getting banned and so I wonder "Wow, maybe this format isn't so stable? Why should I invest into this format when the important cards tend to be expensive, and the rules group has shown they're willing to ban staples? I'd be buying high - not low - and that's a lot of financial risk to enter the format." I'm one of the unlucky ones who finally pulled the trigger on a jewelled lotus two weeks ago because, after months of dithering, it appeared to be a reasonable investment because the banlist seemed to be stable.
@chillaxbro107
16 сағат бұрын
Disregarding all the other arguments because I think they are valid reason to disagree with this ban, I really do not think price of a card should affects its legality. If a card is $0.01 or $1000 it still affects the format the same. If a card costs a lot but makes the format not fun to play, it should still be banned for the health of the format. I get that it sucks to lost a lot of money on a card, but the rules committees job is to balance the format, not to maintain collection prices
@JohnFromAccounting
16 сағат бұрын
Unban Library of Alexandria!
@raymondhorn1052
16 сағат бұрын
I agree. I love my local games stores. I try to play every weekend, but card prices cannot and should not determine if a card is ban worthy. This is a game first. I personally believe card prices like these should have never gotten to this point in the first place. Reprint these to the ground. I agree with a lot of bosh's points (ie: bans all at once, out of nowhere, the double standard on fast mana), but I also I think that someone will always be left holding the bag. Someone is going to lose money on things like this no matter what.
@devilbhrothesavage2807
16 сағат бұрын
You are definitely right though a card simply shouldn't cost that much. A version of that card obviously can and should but absurd prices simply gatekeep the game. I think what I and a lot of people complain about is that people get super touchy about the commander banlist in the first place. Rule 0 is clearly not enough to balance the game and as somebody that only plays commander as an alternative to my main formats limited and pauper, I enjoy a format that for once isn't entirely competitive and allows for much more player expression. Banning absurdly strong cards like mana crypt will probably lead to more and not less expression so I can't really be unhappy about this. Also played a lot of Centurion/Duel Commander in the past and that format has to ban a lot of cards for the formats health especially with how many absurd cards WotC is printing.
@dylanbersano9488
16 сағат бұрын
I agree but I believe you also need to look at outside factors jeweled lotus being the prime example. You have a card that people paid 100+ dollars on (for the people who didn’t pull or proxy) and now it’s quite literally unable to played anywhere else in the game, it’s essentially a 100+ dud card. Every other card on this ban list is played in atleast 1 other format. People also knew that jeweled lotus was a problem when it first came out if they wanted to ban it at any time it shouldn’t have been years later after thousands of people bought or pulled the card when other cards like Nadu were banned within 3-6 months.
@raymondhorn1052
16 сағат бұрын
@@devilbhrothesavage2807 100% you can have your 100+ dollar shiny foil alt art borderless thing, but just make sure that the normal plain one for us not rolling in cash. This is an amazing game. I love modern and legacy, but I have so many friends that literally can't play the game because of the price.
@nickh5302
15 сағат бұрын
I will just comment quickly on card prices. I agree that cards need to have value, but we have to admit that card values have become kind of obscene. Im a US resident who has a hard time spending 200$ on a card when i have a house and kids. WOTC has recently figured out a better solution and they need to continue in the trend of High end promos or alt art treatments for expensive cards in my opinion. We shouldn't be expected as players to Pay to Win, when something like Pokemon TCG which is very successful has top tier standard decks for 30-50$. It's honestly insane that one copy of Sheoldred is 75$ for a base printing. They've made the active effort for fetch lands to be affordable while still having high end versions, i just have a hard time stomaching that certain cards are locked behind a pay wall. This wouldn't have been such a big deal imho if something like Crypt or lotus was a 50$ card rather than 100-200. Yes you still lose your value on the premium version, but collectors are still collectors, and if you splurged your 500$ on a crypt it wont lose as much as a normal would do to scarcity. Love your content bosh.
@Martin-qb2mw
10 сағат бұрын
Paying to win is not the issue. The problem is paying to keep up. If one guy decides that legacy banned and vintage restricted Mana Crypt is suitable for your pod then you also have to buy it otherwise he will dunk on you. If people had some common sense and didn't bring cEDH cards into casual pods or random pickup games there wouldn't be any problem.
@nickh5302
9 сағат бұрын
@@Martin-qb2mw i don't disagree that some people can't seem to grasp the idea that some cards were not made for casual play. Pregame conversations/ rule 0 needs an overhaul, it's crazy how every commander podcast/ show says "we don't play sol ring because it isn't balanced" but you still see one every single game in the real world, not to mention the people who play MLD despite the social stigma.
@alecwoodard9464
13 сағат бұрын
Commander has never really appealed to me. I'm a very spikey player, my neurodivergency loves the competition and, due to a combination of that neurodivergence and being trans in a conservative area, I don't really like playing with randos, especially the loud obnoxious bros that typically dominate Commander tables. One of my go-to stories is getting slurred at for Zenithing x=2 for Collector Ouphe, and I was the one who had to leave the table. That said, I'm really glad for these bans. Having a productive rule zero discussion requires that the table all have a nuanced understanding of what makes a card or deck powerful, and all able to stick up for themselves, neither of which could be relied upon in any shop I've played at in fifteen years playing different card games [my pfp is old I have dysphoria leave me alone]. If the RC continues to hit stuff like this, and tries to actually balance EDH - hitting ThOracle is something I'm really excited about, and I'd like to see several other hits - I and other people like me might be able to come back to the space and actually enjoy themselves, which would be really nice. Being excluded from 2/3rds or more of product released annually really sucks, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't like conflict or gets drowned out by men in Rule 0 discussions that these changes will really help. I'm sorry to everyone who lost a bunch of money on these hits - besides the finance people with boxes of Jeweled Lotuses and Sheoldreds molding in their garages - but this is a change that will help people who are marginalized and/or conflict averse be more comfortable and have more fun playing Commander, to say nothing of the great improvements for cEDH. At least for me, the good outweighs the bad, and I'm really glad to see this change from the Rules Commitee.
@adamjones2299
14 сағат бұрын
There are downsides to banning things outside of just regulating power level. I'm glad you covered those. Decisions that are going to cause LGS, the player base's confidence to erode do pose risk to people's places to play, pickup cards, or game at large. I'm far from quitting the game, but I wholeheartedly disagree with decisions made in the manner as banning crypt(even as someone who hardly plays it) or jeweled lotus. I want this game to continue, and my frustration here isn't that I don't get to play these cards, it's that the hobby takes a hit as people leave because they cannot trust the decisionmaking process of wotc or RC. Maybe it's because I solve problems and analyze things for a living, and live in a world of exploring what ifs and caveats, but it's a tough look for those involved this week. Life goes on, this is cardboard. Hopefully people learn from this and we'll keep playing magic.
@Zero_The_Crow
15 сағат бұрын
I think cEDH needs a separate bannlist with Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, and possibly Dockside Extortionist unbanned. If Rule 0 failure was part of why these bans were needed, then there should be a format where the basic concept is doing these very powerful things.
@jontrumble5315
14 сағат бұрын
My casual playgroup has none of the banned cards available to them. We only play at the kitchen table where its more comfortable. We buy from tcgplayer marketplace without differentiating one store from another. None of us thought of owning any one of the banned cards either given how expensive they were (and remain.) We are not some unenfrancised players either. Most of us having played for over a decade. We collect cards in most smaller quantities and at lower prices and power levels. What I am saying is, these rules changes were not for us and won't affect us in the slightest.
@brandonharris3237
16 сағат бұрын
Proxies are an interesting problem. Personally I buy a card and then print and play with proxies so that my actual card is not accidentally lost or damaged. That said if people are in financial duress I think proxies are a great solution. Overall the game is just too expensive. I agree with you though. If you can it’s good to support the game and LGS’s though.
@brandonharris3237
15 сағат бұрын
For me the thing about rule zero is that it’s easier to allow an exception than enforce a local ban. Almost every week I play against a unique lineup from a pool of around 40 commander players. With that many players it is really hard to rule 0 bans but very easy to rule 0 exceptions. No one wants to sit down at the table and tell people what they can’t play and organizing that many people to get an official band list together is unrealistic and overly time consuming. It also puts added friction on players joining the group or learning Magic. Now they have to be informed of secondary LGS or pod bannings. There is also the question of what to do if they don’t adhere to or agree with the ban? I think it just leads to socially awkward situations. It’s much easier to have a conversation saying “I’m playing this banned card. Is that OK?”. Most of the time people will be fine with it and also it can give an indication of the table about the power level of your deck. I think these bans are super great for the health of the format. So appreciative of the RC for taking action.
@curtisspivey234
16 сағат бұрын
Loved your intro i have seen so many people cover this topic and not remind so many people just to be a good human
@hunterstrong3318
16 сағат бұрын
Im gonna be watching upcoming 5 mana commanders to see why that number is scary
@Phnxkon
15 сағат бұрын
Phyrexian mana mox when?
@YaRr1707
16 сағат бұрын
It's crazy that you're having to preface a statement with "I like owning things"
@Jordan-dg8tp
16 сағат бұрын
People get weird about it. Personally, I don't care if you proxy. I would play super expensive formats with proxies if I could because I want the experience without the financial stake. But if you want to collect the card game, that's awesome. If you want to only play the card game, that's also awesome. But if either side ridicules the other for wanting to exist, that is something completely different. I think the hardest part is that proxy doesn't really support stores, unless there's a tournament involved.
@YaRr1707
15 сағат бұрын
@@Jordan-dg8tp I think most people who don't proxy really care about other people proxying, but there is a strange group of "Proxy everything" people who play the game even though they also won't shut up about how much they hate the game, and are on a moral crusade to bankrupt wizards of the coast by getting everyone to Proxy cards.
@zeroisnine
15 сағат бұрын
I'm actually a Delta marine that makes Rambo look like Homer Simpson, and when I'm not covered in sexy naked models that crave my man-meat or dishing out extreme violence in the name of preserving freedom, I ridicule MTG players in very specific and informed ways, not that I play MTG, but nonetheless I mock their lack of manliness
@BoshNRoll
15 сағат бұрын
Thank you for your service.
@squee147
15 сағат бұрын
Jeweled lotus was designed to print money, not because it was good for the format. I will not miss it. The volatility in magic prices is a result of wotc's policies, not the rule committee. Bans should be rare and the result of a mistake, not because power level is pushed right to the bleeding edge.
@damonlouis6536
4 сағат бұрын
jewel is also an example of a card that the RC asked to not be printed ie elesh. It's on wotc for all the "chase card" takes in this video. I'm looking forward to less nOn-games
@Aiviymatoc
16 сағат бұрын
love your professionallism. very based. W takes
@brianhinkle6721
15 сағат бұрын
I sympathize with the money people lost in this but there is a big problem. If people are treating, probably correctly so, magic cards as an investment then you can’t have your cake and eat it too. All investments go up and down and crash and if we’re treating cards like stocks we can’t be mad when the issues with stocks happen. There are people very heavily impacted by this banning but if we use the excuse to never ban expensive cards then we are forfeiting gameplay for people who just want numbers to go up.
@Belena711
13 сағат бұрын
Hanging onto this for a year in communication with Wizards DOES let select individuals offload their copies. Heck, even Jake and Joel are Magic said that they got a rumor that Mana Crypt was going to be banned "At the end of September" a few months ago. Some people knew - and deciding who knows isn't noble.
@MrAvatarzan
13 сағат бұрын
Hey Bosh, great video..I think the second half of the video really highlights the predatory reprint policy of Wizards, because if the RC made it clear to Wizards that these valuable cards could be banned and they included them anyway to move product and make margins that should say something about the current state of MTG to the Consumer. If anyone should be angry at someone its the Consumers vs Wizards/Hasbro.
@gilburtfilburt8779
13 сағат бұрын
Gonna be honest, I thought mana crypt was the easiest ban the RC could make all the way back in 20... 13 or 14 back when I started playing. The card was maybe 100 dollars back then, I think less, but it felt absolutely mind-blowing that the 5 P9 moxen were sitting on the ban list while a card that was on paper twice as good but effectively much more than that just due to the non-linear nature of the ratio of card power to mana costs and the nature of compounding advantage in the game was totally fine and acceptable. And the RC has always maintained that the power, uh, eight I suppose, were a hybrid of availability and power level bans since the start of the format, which the at the time promo-exclusive crypt also would easily fall under. Especially back in the era of the old partial paris, I'm amazed that the RC was okay with having that density of mana velocity in their decks. I do agree that lotus is a bad ban, but only in the sense that wow someone should have put their foot down and never printed it in the first place. And as far as financials go, uh, I know eternal guys (of which I am one now) have a different view on card value, but I was a standard grinder of basically no fame for probably 8 years total and to me, MTG finance was just a constant treadmill of buying high and selling low. No cards held value, and nothing appreciated sitting in a sleeve or a trade binder. Unless you were at events tapping mana to play them, they would radiate their value straight into the atmosphere, never to be seen again. It feels awful, I do agree-- which is why I got out-- but those stories about buying or trading for spendy cards only to wake up with uncomfortable toilet paper one day, that was-- IS the MTG experience.
@MattCorrales
13 сағат бұрын
Bingo. You described exactly my financial situation. I hustled for my jeweled lotuses and crypts and did the “trade up” from my tournament wins. I own duals now and there’s something about losing those mid-level “big trade ups” that crushes my soul this week that people who just took out a credit card don’t seem to get. 😢
@dralokad5862
14 сағат бұрын
This is the best KZitem video I’ve watched in the last few days about the bans (and I watched a lot of them). I particularly enjoyed your ground rules (reason is in short supply these days). Thank you for your balanced perspective (both casual, cEDH, and collector’s perspectives). The stories behind Nadu and Olivia from the Rules committee were also very interesting so thanks for sharing!
@maxmustermann1111
12 сағат бұрын
Considering cedh i think you are right with kinnan and RogSi. I think yuriko is in the same group and going to see a rise in ranking. Lotus and dockside are fully irrelecant to her. Mana crypt doesnt hit her that hard. And she still plays thoracle. And thoracle is actually my biggest concern. The biggest plus of dockside was that it gave thoracle run for their money in terms of being an efficient wincon. With this gone there is even more incentive to include dimir colors in your cedh deck. And dimir is arguably already the best colors to include.
@Torch_of_Sin
14 сағат бұрын
Make Cedh Great Again! ✊️ I recommend everyone to hold on to Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus, if you see yourself playing Cedh in the future. It's interesting to think that Cedh might be its own official format. If that happens, the ban cards prices should correct and also mana vault will also stay expensive because it's edh demand.
@cjwauer4730
15 сағат бұрын
So it’s interesting. You both agree with all four bans but don’t. I am actually glad about these bans overall. I’ve been hating Jeweled lotus since day 1 and I had 1 since day 1. The fast mana in commander is both fun and horrible. Being a 4 player multiplayer game is rough. I think maybe they should have done it one card at a time, and I think the RC should offer a ‘watchlist’ moreso than the general whispers.
@Jordan-dg8tp
16 сағат бұрын
I'm happy for such a reasonable take. I'm happy that the meta shakeup will affect all decks, make some cEDH decks viable and make others not. Making decks less homogenous is a net positive to me. I think it's silly that the lotus got removed, especially because it was specifically designed for the format that it got banned in. I can potentially see crypt because T1 3 mana is more scary to me than t1 sol ring only having two colorless. Both are scary on T2 with 4-5 mana available, but is simply because the game is so ingrained around mana being sacred and hard to get and jumping mana positive rocks will rocket you ahead of the table. I think my most controversial stance is on the MtG finance portion where I hold the stance of "If a card becoming worthless would cause you financial stress, you shouldn't purchase that card." Downside of that is that many stores cannot take that stance. I won't ignore the financial implications, especially considering they were staples similar to brainstorm in legacy and power nine in vintage. At the end of the day, I am excited to see where the format goes post banning, but I do feel for those that are chuffed because of all the hype surrounding chase cards pushed out of the format. The biggest takeaway from me is the mention of knowing WotC had to have known about the rumblings of banning these cards and they were still pushed to sell packs, then the bannings removed them after the sales were mostly complete - as a consumer, that totally sucks.
@patrickmcathey7081
13 сағат бұрын
EDH was a grassroots format, somehow its only fitting for CEDH to gain its own life the same way. 10 to 15 years ago no one knew what commander was everyone played standard and limited. CEDH could take its own home.
@gabrote42
14 сағат бұрын
2:00 Not unreasonable. 2:41 French Baguette Intelligence or TA-RP are good for that 6:20 Very well explained 17:51 Idk, is there a changeling manadork? I'd expect to see a white or red player deal with that, or someone to have a Daze up. I'd love to read a comment on that
@paperskate654
15 сағат бұрын
Your level-headedness and clarity in what you want to say in your videos is why you've become my favourite MtG content creator. The reaction some people have had to the ban has been appalling and, as I stopped playing commander myself a long time ago, I'm glad to get such a well-measured explanation of the situation from someone who is deeply invested in it. You also make a very good point in why this is upsetting for non-cedh players as well; Jeweled Lotus must be the most pump-and-dump card printed so far and sets an awful precedent.
@nugoo7687
15 сағат бұрын
I'm not done the video yet, just reacting to the beginning of the Mana Crypt section. I totally agree that banning Crypt and not Sol Ring makes very little sense, and I'm extra salty about it because I've got a Gyruda companion deck that runs Crypt and can't run Sol Ring.
@gabeanderson9509
14 сағат бұрын
1:05:41 the idea that magic players couldn't handle the reserve list being removed is disappointing. I'm in the camp of get rid of it. I'm cool with my expensive cards being reprinted, but i buy to collect because i like exactly that version, and i like it at that price. I'll feel bad if that version goes down because there is a new cheaper/cooler version, but thats just collecting
@viviblue7277
12 сағат бұрын
11:31 Sol ring is mentioned right there! On screen! They talked about it!
@VoidGivenForm
5 сағат бұрын
He means in direct correlation with the whole “5 mana on turn 2” play patterns, and that the card is so obviously just 1 mana mana crypt and the whole format is supported by a “slightly” worse mana crypt
@sadieroms
16 сағат бұрын
I used to work at a mox boarding house and their long term business plan as the outlets for card kingdom is to someday be the big box version of that third type of LGS. Franchising out locations as much as they can everywhere they can if things go right. To me it always felt like they wanted to be the Walmart of game stores and end locality. When you were talking about your position as a collector versus teenagers I was thinking of their inventory versus the average store and feeling as though its a similar relationship. Every time a competitor is hit harder then them financially by something like this they get closer to replacing them imo. I'm not saying this is some conspiracy where they are involved in any way that'd be insane, I just feel like the lack of care over the way these bans are going to effect the finances of local game stores is in line with a financial future for the game where LGSs don't matter in the grand scheme of magics monetization. A decision like this isn't the end of the world but its a cut that they made not care to protect customer confidence and store inventories because I'm not sure they need to?
@alexparsons3295
15 сағат бұрын
Been playing since Mana Crypt was originally printed and i think the printing of Jewelled Lotus was around the time i started answering their surveys with "i won't tell you what formats i play because I'm worried you will try to monetize it like Commander"
@tobomy
14 сағат бұрын
21:58 Sorry, that's not what everyone at a table when power levels didn't match was doing. People were stomping, and sometimes I think they were genuinely unaware of the power of what they were doing.
@Viryn
17 сағат бұрын
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level.
@daltonwood8881
16 сағат бұрын
Just want to say that the intro to this video is probably the most level headed and respectable response to this situation. Thank you for being a voice of reason with what, at the end of the day, is just cardboard. Much love.
@CoreySarsfield
14 сағат бұрын
Thanks for being one of the most level-headed responses out there. I only agree with about half of the opinions here, but I appreciate how you presented all of them.
@Mando0Melkor
17 сағат бұрын
This is good advice, having an opinion on their decisions is natural, going to them directly and making threats is just not acceptable. There is a big difference on disagreement and threats.
@tateallen9972
12 сағат бұрын
I love the ground rules. I'm here for a silly card game, not to think about the horrors of the world and to harass people
@GamiHQ
16 сағат бұрын
There's been so much chaos over the last few days,. It's really nice to sit down and hear someone have a considered reasonable opinion, rather than just screaming into the void.
@jamiebruner8463
17 сағат бұрын
I appreciate the transparency.
@BattleAxeRX
14 сағат бұрын
Reminding people of the problems many people voted for was a good move. Nice video.
@rememberthis3592
15 сағат бұрын
I don't own any of those cards, but i understand the feeling and i agree with the video.
@Tehnameless1
15 сағат бұрын
I like that Nadu was changed for commander and gets banned anyway. I hope WOTC learns their lesson that it's a fine line to walk Support your LGS!
@taranweeks4393
17 сағат бұрын
I’ve been saying ban sol ring since I started playing edh in 2010! It feels bad to see your opponent go off turn one with a sol ring while you struggle to make land drops turns 3-4. At least mana crypt has a drawback! 😂
@sulIy
17 сағат бұрын
If someone comes across this channel, they’re privileged too. No need to play their purity games :)
@JohnFromAccounting
16 сағат бұрын
EDH and cEDH are different formats and should be different formats. cEDH shouldn't have a ban list. Go all out. Many players use proxies for expensive cards, so it's not as if cost is an issue, but it keeps values there for collectors to say, "Yeah, you can play all those expensive cards that can't see play anywhere else." What's good for casual EDH is not necessarily good for cEDH. Nobody is worried about Vintage having 8 decks, so cEDH having 20 or so competitive viable commanders is also fine. I get the sense that the ban was to insulate casual players from the pub-stomp competitive players, but this is ultimately misguided. The way to insulate casual players is to establish cEDH as a different format with a different ban list. That said, why don't they take a proper look at the EDH ban list. Coalition Victory? Emrakul? Golos? Griselbrand? Panoptic Mirror? Are these really cards that anyone should be worrying about?
@darkinsanity98473
15 сағат бұрын
Tournament CEDH if they want it, is what needs a curated banlist. CEDH played casually for fun along with the rest of the EDH format should not have much at all that is banned.
@mehra6712
13 сағат бұрын
Heya Brian, do you have a video showing your casual commander decks at their different power levels? I love your legacy content, but I think that'd be really sweet to see too, to hear you nerd out about different casual commander decks
@BoshNRoll
13 сағат бұрын
My casual decks are on display in my KZitem shorts. I haven't done a video where I "nerd out" though, could be fun one day!
@milksandwich5751
14 сағат бұрын
The frame behind you sometimes aligns with your head and gives you cat ears.
@stonedphilosopher2185
13 сағат бұрын
Are all the red decks in cedh dead without Dockside?
@DankAudioStash24
17 сағат бұрын
Based.
@foxokon94
17 сағат бұрын
I have been advocating for some kind of fast management ban for years. I play a lot of pickup games locally and have experienced casual players slamming these into their upgraded precons and creating bad gameplay experiences. Even with that, I don’t think these bans were a good way to go about it. I always said ‘Commander is better when nobody has fast mana, but because Sol Ring is in every precon they can’t ban it.’ Turns out I was half right, they could ban the fast mana, just not the sol ring. So I will be smug about how in sync with the RC I seem to be(I also ‘predicted’ the Iona ban nobody saw coming). I will enjoy less non games locally and still believe this is better for the game long term, but I get why it sucks for those who held these cards.
@asiniel23216
16 сағат бұрын
Yup, the RC is reaping what they sowed with the whole "don't rock the boat" policy
@willl793
15 сағат бұрын
Rule 0 is a joke. 22:20 you hit the nail on the head. Either rule 0 works and players should self govern or it doesn’t work and an actual sensible ban list is needed
@alecwoodard9464
8 сағат бұрын
@@willl793 wholly agreed. I have yet to see a good argument that it is effective enough to be the play pattern police for THE definitive Magic format. Rule Zero made sense when this format was a fringe side thing, now it’s the headliner, and it needs to act like it, IMO
@Pyroshax
13 сағат бұрын
What I don't get is the RC talks a LOT. They do quarterly updates. They tell us their goals. They have a philosophy document. All signs indicated that they were looking to be more transparent this year, and that they were serious that the third tenet of their core philosophy actually meant something. This decision feels the opposite of all that. I look at where they openly claim that they want commander to be STABLE, and that people should be able to play, leave, and come back to the game after a long period of time and still use their same decks... and it just falls flat. Maybe I'm being overdramatic. I hold no ill-will towards any singular member as an individual, but in their articles... all this posturing, virtuous rhetoric, and righteous pretense put forth to justify their place as an "independent" entity seem to be hollow. I do not feel that commander is "stable", as their guiding philosophy would suggest, and I do not feel like this decision was made with any greater interest to the players moreso than what internal WOTC staff could have put forth. They have not only damaged the interests of players, stores, and sellers, but also their brand and any good faith earned by them as a supposed authority in the space.
@mr.miyagi5938
16 сағат бұрын
if you're call about the next set having mana vault as a chase reprint is true i'll join the patreon !remindme
@mr.miyagi5938
15 сағат бұрын
year of sets*
@ShellShockOne
16 сағат бұрын
The main point for the RC is the point that you agree with - banning these is good for game play. And they do cover sol ring in their original post. More or less the only reason it isn’t banned is It’s too ubiquitous and given to babies via air drop. Every commander precon in existence becoming illegal would be disastrous for wotc and a logistical nightmare. The financial hit is real and incredibly sad; mana crypt and JLo should have absolutely been put on the watch list, but I do agree with their bans.
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