Thanks for the input everyone! I'm super happy that everyone is absolutely loving Massive Darkness 2! It's great when people love stuff. As for me, this was kind of the tip of the ice berg of issues I have with the game. I guess this rule caused a snowball effect for me in terms of being able to enjoy the game. I've added the game to sell pile, but will continue to play and love Massive Darkness 1. As a pure and simple zero-to-hero monster-bash, I greatly prefer MD1.
@Mister_Peppers
2 жыл бұрын
Not sure if you saw this was updated to say the mob has to be in combat with you before they add their dice so range wouldn't trigger adding the dice.
@panosandreadis5416
2 жыл бұрын
@@Mister_Peppers Hello! Where can i find this info?
@Mister_Peppers
2 жыл бұрын
@@panosandreadis5416 I read it on Reddit. After reading the new rulebook it does say that range doesn't affect the dice. So it seems they are just interpreting "combat" to be already engaged currently with a hero.
@aravok2188
2 жыл бұрын
I think more consideration and care with party turn order in these circumstances is whats required. Having this bad of luck really doesn't help anything but being able to re-roll a dice or two or whittling down mobs with someone who could ignore one or two scratches first can make this significantly easier.
@jameskyle7943
2 жыл бұрын
I would just ignore that rule when it did not make sense. But yeah, too bad a house rule is needed.
@wishmeheaven
2 жыл бұрын
A rule that doesn't make sense is an opportunity to be creative and fix it with your own rule to make the game (even?) better..
@rko3501
2 жыл бұрын
I played the TTS before backing it. Tried it 2/3/4 handed and yeah the scaling of high player count is not really good. But playing 2handed is a blast
@marvart4536
2 жыл бұрын
Those Nagas are super fast. Yeah, they also commented it was a "sandbox" board game so I would make your own rulings. One I will include is when they counterattack and are successful, I will then roll my armor die to see if I block anything.
@C4rp3t78
2 жыл бұрын
Quick question .. the enemy dice got a claw and the claw scratches.. the claw scratches does the not blockable damage. But the claws? Do they do damage that can be blocked ? Or are they only for the special ability of the monsters?
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Claws trigger enemy specials.
@davidcain5544
2 жыл бұрын
It is much better game at a 2 player count. Much less grindy - less mobs and less minions per mob means it is much better balanced and plays very well. Chances of a hero being one-spotted is greatly reduced. At higher player counts it is more of a battle of attrition and, yes, the first player attacking a mob can be at risk (careful selection of party composition, and hero selected to attack first is vital). Probably the game that splits my opinion the most when played at different player counts. Very good at 2, average at 3 and poor at 4 imo. In fact, I’m only painting up 3 mob minions as I can’t see myself ever using more. Except the Skeletons which the Necromancer can summon to do his bidding.
@martinwolf5888
2 жыл бұрын
This is exactly how the games was meant to be designed. This game is no one-man show and its obviously not that smart to face a group of 5 enemies without any kind of assistance or buffs on the active player. So in my opinion this is a very good point that speaks for the game. Its a cooperative game and it so should be played as.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Super stoked you love it so much! Always great when that happens.
@RedBird77
Жыл бұрын
But that still doesn’t explain why a ranged attack would give you damage with enemies not adjacent to you
@realsparrow
5 ай бұрын
Its a fantasy luckbased game. Imagine the Snakes spites acid or something. You also have to imagine how could they pull you towards them. The game has some weaknesses and houserules help a lot but we realy like it.
@TeamCGS2005
Жыл бұрын
Good points raised here but I guess if you look at it another way, the enemies are disadvantaged at various stages throughout. For instance when the minions are killed off, the leader only has a defence die (sometimes nothing). Also the darkness die is definitely to the player's advantage which is to the enemy's disadvantage. I feel it kind of evens itself out overall. Also as you say we can't defend some of their attacks (claws) but the shadow die levels out the playing field.
@carbondragon
2 жыл бұрын
Ok, first I believe your interpretation is correct. With the right character and the right gear though, you can reroll enemy (or your) dice and negate some of that damage. Some characters just ignore one slash. The ability to reroll is very important. Next 1 character is possible but abnormally hard due to the punitive 2 minion for 1 character rule (though you get 4 actions). I'd play with 2 characters minimum to 4. Paladin/Rogue might be a good one to start. Next, the one shot kill effect is mostly for 4 characters or more due to the greater number of minions. Lastly, infant mortality is very real in this game. Right at the beginning with starter gear you are at your most vulnerable. But it will get better. Also keep in mind you start with a potion (like a health potion). Combined with the lightbringer token, which when used actually gives you a reroll therafter, it gives you a better chance. So thematically? You're definitely right. But you're also selecting a character with low health, minimal (or no) rerolls, and limited DPS. Lose the Monk.
@ThePiergeiron
9 ай бұрын
Thematically?! „You are in hell or at the gates of it.“ „The darkness embraces you and send you searing pain when you attack the minions of evil!“ „It doesn‘t matter who you are or where you are.“ „The sinister evil will find you and make you suffer!“ 😅
@marksteelman7747
2 жыл бұрын
In MD1, the monsters basically get an activation. If they had a dagger they would move toward you and try to attack just like when it was their turn, with a melee weapon in this situation they would move toward you two spaces and then stop.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Right. And there were ways to mitigate the counter attack.
@marksteelman7747
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive how feasible is it to just play the counterattack as it was in MD1?
@marksteelman7747
2 жыл бұрын
I think what they were trying to address was that in the original game the mob was just fluff, the models were just hit points. They wanted the danger to scale with the number. I can see why you find it jarring but I think I’m going to give it a chance. I really liked MD1. Like you, I would say Secrets of the Lost Tomb is my favorite dungeon crawl but MD1 gets played the most because it looks great, I can play it with newbs, and I don’t need to reread the rules each time I bring it out. It was just really easy to table.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I think playing like MD1 would make the game way too easy.
@Sanvone
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive But there is difference between making it less easy and making single enemy mob on 6 players throw 108 dices with potential for unblockable damage in the worst case scenario. Which makes every figure in enemy mob do 18 attacks before they do their regular attack. The problem is that CMON doesn't get what contributes to difficulty of their game.
@mikeglasswell-gameplay
2 жыл бұрын
I was bit caught off guard with the black dice mechanic at first. I have played several games and the black dice cause little knicks and scratches here and there. i have not been one shotted. most of the ranged heroes have some black dice re-roll skill, which allow some mitigation of the black dice. The theme of the to and fro of battle work quite nice. the fire entities shooting fireballs back to the heroes, orcs with slings and crude spears. I had to get my brain in that space. I imagine the mobs with Melee weapons on their activation The Leader shouts "charge" and they all rush in while in defense, the leader is screaming "protect me, you lackeys.'' i found there was a lot of mitigation for black dice and it kept the combat running smooth. it still has that zero to hero feel.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I got one or two shotted multiple times in multiple games. Really ruined the experience for me.
@forsakenbacon3208
2 жыл бұрын
I’ve been playing this game and love it. I’m playing two player so fewer black dice to deal with. Dice reroll is so important. I’m playing monk and rogue and having a blast.
@garethpugh9743
Жыл бұрын
This doesn’t make sense at range, so what I do is this; gather dice pool, roll and resolve as per normal, adding all effects etc, and only if the mob has an item/weapon that has the required range do they cause damage, but if they only have a melee weapon, for example and are not in the same zone, then for each scratch, resolve a move action (if possible), also if you kill a minion with the attack, remove a black dice effect before the retaliation. E.g., Nahias attacks a Mob of Gargoyles (1 leader, 3 minions) armed with a +1 yellow dice axe, 3 zones away with ranged attack on the following dice: 2 yellow, 1 orange, 1 shadow and 2 black dice, and gets the results: 1 sword + mana, 1 sword, 2 swords, 1 shield, and for the minions 1 claw/1 scratch, 1 scratch and a blank. He resolves the attack first, 4 swords and 1 shield = 3 damage. She kills 1 minion and adds 1 wound to another, she then decides to remove the 1 claw/1 scratch black dice, that only leaves 1 scratch, as the mob only has a melee weapon, the surviving mob members move one zone closer to Nahias’ zone. Thoughts please??
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
Yes! That’s a great solution. I read of some one else doing something similar and I want to try that out.
@elikurtz729
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the brief insight but I think you are missing a tiny detail ... In a 3-4 player game you will have 2 revive tokens to mitigate bad luck. It is part of the strategy as is the possibility to die from scratches. Thematically I think the Darkness you invade retalliates through the scratches rather than any given mob. We play mostly in 3 player campaign mode and think it is very thematic but not really difficult. The game is amazing and rewarding with advanced gear and abilities. I feel they did a great job of incorporating the MD1 content. The different hero mechanics are quite enjoyable and we look forward to try out other combinations. This is so different from the generic MD1 abilities that it is the best part of the revised game for me. However, I do understand that this and some other game mechanics can feel a bit Euro-gamey and not appeal to everyone. ^^
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I just didn't mention the revive tokens, because I understand those. Just wanted to make sure I was playing the black dice correctly. Thanks! I greatly prefer MD1. Keeping that, selling MD2. IMO, they ruined a great and simple zero-to-hero monster bash with a lot of dumb rules and changes.
@byoung2345
2 жыл бұрын
I feel like MS1 is just a reskinned Zombicide but MS2 has enough interesting changes to set itself apart. I feel like this rule set is better overall in terms of replay value, I have had the MS1 all in bundle this whole time and I have already played MS2 way more
@erfbeto
2 жыл бұрын
It seems easy to house rule that you don't take the damage if they can't reach you... but I don't know how dependent the game is of this rule to damage the heroes and balance the difficulty. Still, it's a pretty big flaw IMO in the middle of a cool game.
@robsonribeiro7552
2 жыл бұрын
I'm thinking on this way too, if they are not in ranged for their weapon I dont take the damage. As same MD1 I made few house rules to adapt little things here and there. I'm with you on that, this retaliation out of range is pretty broken and make no sense.
@robsonribeiro7552
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for bring it because I re read the rulebook today because I thought I was going something wrong too.
@Osse22
2 жыл бұрын
That's correct on the black dice. It's 1 per minion, it ignores armor and the equipped weapon. However you have to take into account if its combat, defense or attack on the card. So the outcome of your example is correct.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for confirming. I'll still with MD1. :) Not sure why they had to muck it up.
@Osse22
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Well it's different. Your example was with 5 players which means you do get 4 lifebringer (revives) tokens to balance it out. So if you get a bad roll you can come back and you can rest as well with one of your actions. I know when we first played it my daughter was like this isn't fair LOL.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
To me it feels like they solved a symptom of a bad design process with a patch, rather than a re-design of the issue. Considering the amount of time and money they had to make the game, it's not acceptable.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Also, in MD1 if you attacked from a shadow zone, you could avoid the counter attack. Apparently that's gone now, too.
@marksteelman7747
2 жыл бұрын
I don’t think that was how it worked, the counter attack could be avoided if you got out of line of sight and into a darkness space. The better way to avoid counter attack was to leverage the can’t leave melee combat super glue. If the tank went into the square first, the mobs could not leave to counter attack.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
That's what it was. Still, there was at least a way to handle it. Also, heroes got to roll defense for counter attacks, and that's gone for some reason in MD2. I wonder what kind of stories BGG users will create to explain away the fact that your armor doesn't work against counter attacks? LOL!
@marksteelman7747
2 жыл бұрын
It is weird. Is armor straight damage reduction?
@terrylane474
2 жыл бұрын
Give it chance. IMHO MD2 it is a big improvement on MD1 as a board game (I also enjoyed MD1) - the campaign expansion in particular is very satisfying and the asymmetrical character mechanics are really fun. It might be easy to get hung up on verisimilitude (though the rpg DMs among you could explain most inconsistencies). Embrace the ‘board game’ abstraction and you’ll find you can USE the rules to strategize your moves, rather than redesign the game to suit your strategy.
@snethss
2 жыл бұрын
he is literally giving it a chance, and the dice are telling him it is not an improvement.
@gasa5251
2 жыл бұрын
So for a single hero attack, if 2 players, 2 monsters retaliate, or if 4 players then 4 do ..... but the hero is no stronger to resist twice the number of attacks - the only way that works is if the retaliate is spread across the whole party ...
@terrylane474
2 жыл бұрын
It won’t be for everyone. The difference is that while more enemies in a mob hit harder, you can rotate who takes the hits from turn to turn. In addition, more heroes tend to kill the mob faster as hero attacks far outstrip mob retaliation. The game IS, however, very swingy - we’ve played it a lot, with 2, 3, and 4 players and only failed 1 quest out of the 10 we’ve played (some repeated with different players). Your mileage may vary but it hasn’t felt very different to us, adjusting the number of players.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
For me, they added layers of complication to the MD1 formula that didn't make the game better, but actually made the game worse. I'm a big fan of MD1, but MD2 has been relinquished to the corn field.
@marvart4536
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive what corn field?....I haven't got mine yet
@shaolinmanny
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe it is better to let the archer do his job and attacking big groups like that from afar. Not sure right now but the archer's card pulls might do the difference ?
@Naruga
2 жыл бұрын
Tried to like the zombicide system but I just can't into it. Appreciate that a lot of people love it but I would rather bust out S&S AC any day (Btw I know you sold your copy of S&S but did you try Ancient Chronicles? It made the system better imo)
@TitchmarshVillage
2 жыл бұрын
Sword & Sorcery is a massively underrated game. Definitely in my top 3 dungeon crawlers.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I have not tried the new S&S. Unless they radically changed the game, I doubt I would like the new one.
@Naruga
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Ah. Thanks for answering
@1AngelAlita
2 жыл бұрын
That's why I love Shadows of Brimstone. I don't have to spend money on other dungeon crawlers because there's nothing better.. ;) Well I'm not saying I don't do it but I don't have to.. ;)
@davidk6269
2 жыл бұрын
What are you doing wrong? You're NOT playing Space Hulk. That's what you're doing wrong. ; ) But seriously, I always enjoy your content. Thank you!
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Haha! Seriously though. ;)
@Naruga
2 жыл бұрын
A game I regret selling, along with my 90s Warhammer Quest. We truly live lives of regret.
@thericepresident2562
2 жыл бұрын
Ive played this game about 5 times now and it's honestly not bad. There's a lot of class abilities that give you combat bonuses like rerolls and ignore scratch marks. Theres also an action that a lot of people forget about and it's recover. If you take too much damage, you might have to forgo an attack to recover. I haven't really encountered an unfair mob yet. I feel like its fair. Every now and then a mob will just roll really good on enemy dice and theres nothing you can do about it. In the end the random dice rolls is what makes the game fun.
@svai303
2 жыл бұрын
Hey Daniel, you're 100% right with your example. I've played 2 quests so far with 2 heroes and it went nice, but I can totally understand that with a 3 or 4 player game, attacking enemies could definitely one-shot some of the low-HP heroes and this is bad. I hope they come up with a fix. In the meantime, I'm houseruling it so if the enemy is equipped with a Melee weapon, the minions can only retaliate if I'm in the same zone. Otherwise, they move up to me for this attack. If I attack them again, then they can retaliate. That's the most logical way I could find for now, after 2 quests, but I'll keep an eye open for other ideas/solutions (e.g. only roll HALF the black dice instead).
@bengamingames5002
2 жыл бұрын
I believe in the first Massive Darkness, it was if you attacked ranged, they could move towards you and attack to retaliate. We would step around a corner, fire, and then move out of sight so they would not retaliate.
@svai303
2 жыл бұрын
@@bengamingames5002 Yeah but they changed that. Nothing says anything about range retaliation.
@wishmeheaven
2 жыл бұрын
@@svai303 the question is if it's thematically suitable and reasonable, mechanically implementable and fun..(?)
@svai303
2 жыл бұрын
@@wishmeheaven I'm still having fun, so yeah. I just reduce the number of Black dice by half when doing range attacks. We can just pretend the enemies manage to find rocks to throw at the hero(es), or whatever.
@donavanmoore109
2 жыл бұрын
@@svai303 that is a very good idea. Reducing by half at range makes since.
@rodrickcampbell8817
2 жыл бұрын
Our group played a couple of times and decided the figures were better used for other gaming.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I use my MD1 minis for other games all the time.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
So apparently I'm playing right, but I'm supposed to imagine that all the mobs are always armed with every single weapon type they need for a proper counter attack, regardless of the the item they're carrying, the art, and the mini. So the game turns into an exercise of playing make-believe when you attack an enemy, and then reverts back to a game in all other instances.
@Mark-nh2hs
2 жыл бұрын
That's pushing it to far so these monsters are carrying every weapon - wow they must be extremely strong and proficient in all styles off combat. That's pushing the realms of imagination way too far and just an excuse to justify crap rules. Yes sometimes imagination is acceptable if it's plausible but this takes it to a whole new level of WTF lol
@radelc
2 жыл бұрын
I was hoping MD2 would fix some of my issues with MD1. We mostly use the minis for D&D bc they are fantastic. Now I’m starting to have doubts about fixing and even creating new problems. Looking forward to your full review.
@shaolinmanny
2 жыл бұрын
They just grab whatever loot lays around them and throw it back at you !! Can be very leathal XD
@Jeefrs
2 жыл бұрын
I gotta say, that's dumb
@Emloch
2 жыл бұрын
In MD1, after a player would attack, the enemy would then get a turn to counter-attack (provided they could reach the hero) before the next player had their turn. Sure, it was more realistic, but it bogged the game down, quite a bit. The black dice were added in MD2 to remove this counter-attack step, and keep the game flowing faster. Although it's not entirely "realistic", I actually prefer it. These black dice are not a representation of the weapon the enemy is currently wielding (as the actual weapon is only used during the enemy's attack phase, where they must be in the appropriate range to attack). Consider a mob of enemies with throwing knives, darts, whips, magical cantrips, etc, which can reach you from a distance. I know it's a stretch, but these black dice simplify and streamline the play, and that's what's most important. Please also note that there are many abilities, amongst the different classes and gear, that allow protections and rerolls, against and of, these black dice. Aside from that, remember that with every minion slain, you roll one fewer black die. At first encounter, they may be a tad formidable, but as soon as you start chipping away at them, they become weak, very fast. I've played this several times and found everything balanced rather well. The key to this game is making sure your party is built well to compliment each other.
@kevinclark8370
2 жыл бұрын
I agree with the thematic argument on the surface. It should be stated that the combat is not overly simple nor overly complex. It seems they were attempting to strike a balance. I think it works better than MD1. If this were a tactics game, I could see wanting to house rule the thematic issue. In the end, how am I supposed to know how magic works in hell? I don't think that you can throw out all of the thematic improvements in MD2 just for this one concession that appears to have been made for balance. There are a few points about your example that should be mentioned for the benefit of people who have not played the game. 1) The chances of rolling 4 scratches on 4 black dice (2/6 sides) is 1.24%. 2) If you did roll that to begin the game, you would be knocked out, and all players would benefit from a black die re-roll each combat, making that outcome nearly impossible. 3) at 5-6 player counts you start with 1 black die re-roll. Anyone should sell a game that they don't enjoy playing though.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
For me it comes down to two things. The black dice should be range-appropriate and the heroes should have a chance to use their defensive gear to mitigate the damage. Without those two elements, the game completely falls apart for me thematically, and for me theme is king. If other things were also similarly abstracted, like in Tiny Epic Dungeons, I wouldn’t mind it. I really like MD1 for a zero-to-hero monster bash, and I think MD2 misses the mark.
@terrylane474
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive I’m sure you’ve gone past this now but for what it’s worth…The Black dice represent the weapons/attacks of the minions which are assumed to be an assortment of ranged/melee attacks. Only the Leader carries the magic/special weapon (that’s what makes them the leader) and why that attack is only added once per attack and is always range appropriate. I’m pretty sure it states that in the rules. If you fire an arrow at a mob they shoot arrows back(or throw spears/spit/cast spells etc) because you are exposed and they are returning fire. As for gaining no benefit from armour during retaliation - I agree it sucks but it’s for balance I assume. I forgive it because the rest of the game has been a lot of fun and rarely feels too punishing.
@genghisgahan9623
2 жыл бұрын
Pity they did not make a conversion pack to use md2 components with md1.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I wish there was a downgrade back to make MD2 play like MD1. :)
@01hornsfan
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe someone on BGG will eventually make some. If CMON can't create high quality games anymore, then fans on BGG can't do much worse.
@happyh.joyjoy654
2 жыл бұрын
The weapon, realistically, is what the leader is armed with (explaining why you only get one mob item). The minion attacks would be with whatever options they have on hand, which could very well still be ranged, even if the leader has a melee weapon. The lack of defense dice could be explained by your character focusing on the leader and the mob flanking/blindsiding you, taking cheap shots. With the number of abilities and items that give rerolls you probably shouldn't be one shot by mobs very often, and if you are the revive tokens add even more rerolls to mitigate it going forward. So this should be a pretty rare issue.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
In the rule book it very clearly states that the entire mob is armed with the weapon. If the mobs have ranged weapons during counter attacks why don’t they use them on their turn? People keep trying to justify this totally dumb mechanism with all kinds of excuses. The designers knew the rule was dumb so they kept adding patches to get around it. Oh well. Game is already sold. Massive Darkness 1 is infinitely better anyhow, as are any other number of dungeon crawls covered here. *shrug*
@happyh.joyjoy654
2 жыл бұрын
@The Dungeon Dive Well, if the mob are all armed with the same sword, why don't you get 2-6 when you kill the last enemy instead of one? As far as why they don't use them on their turn, the mob are a mob... a cowardly lot. They follow the leader and otherwise only attack when attacked. Which makes enough sense to roll with. Nearly nothing will ever be explained to 100% satisfaction. The question is can you fudge it, and in this case I think the above is good enough. Why in most games are attacking and moving different "actions"? In the real world are we limited to using only arms or legs at any one time? And why are we all taking turns? Outside of an '80s action movie, fights don't generally work like that. When you gain knowledge in the real world and develop a new skill, like when you learn to cook a new meal, and you've "leveled up" can you now take another punch to the face? So why do we almost always get more "hit points" when we learn something new? And speaking of leveling up, why can I punch a tonne of goblins in the face, and then after an arbitrary number, I can suddenly shoot lightning bolts out of my fingers by simply chosing that skill after the arbitrary number of goblin face-punches? And why can I now do it relatively perfectly despite never having done it before? How does one of those things lead to the other? You're in the other room throwing fireballs, murdering folks, who presumably are screaming for help, and the...let's say... orcs on the other side of the door don't just open it and join in kicking your butt? They're just gonna sit there and wait for you? Why are all the enemies deaf or incapable of working the door handles in their own homes? Why are there chests full of powerful weapons and armor sitting around this dungeon, with stuff generally way better than the mob stuff, but none of its denizens are using them to defend their home? It all just sits in those chests waiting for you. None of that makes any sense. It's all kind of dumb, and most of that stuff applies to MD1, D&D, and any number of other dungeon crawls and RPGs. You're not going to find great reasons for any of that because those rules and mechanics exist for the sake of balance and making the gameplay work, and anything anyone comes up with would be excuses, and probably bad ones. While I'm not a super big fan of the mob dice, I don't feel like the rules here are much more immersion breaking than the above or a bunch of other stuff that exists to make a game function. It feels like you're trying to make the mob dice a line in the sand, but if so, it seems like a fairly arbitrary one given the standard amount of nonsense we see in these things. These games run on dispelling disbelief. Ultimately though that's a collaborative effort between the game and the ones playing it, and if you weren't having fun (and it sounds like you weren't thanks to a series of bad rolls) you're less likely to do your expected part ignoring the rough edges that inevitably result from the limitations of the medium.
@donavinnorthrup4885
2 жыл бұрын
@@happyh.joyjoy654 I will admit I didn't read the novel, but the posters reply to you is correct - The 'entire mob' is attacking you with the weapon. This is RAW. I'm all for home ruling, but be sure to clarify RAW vs not.
@happyh.joyjoy654
2 жыл бұрын
@@donavinnorthrup4885 Reread the rule book. You're wrong and confusing terms. Look at the bottom of page 17, where they mention drawing the mob item. The rules specifically say, "The mob LEADER is the monster considered to be holding the item." That right there 100% confirms it, and the rules follow that logically enough. That is why mobs don't roll weapon damage times the number of units: because the minons aren't armed with the weapon. It explains why you only get ONE weapon when you defeat the mob, not one for each unit. It also explains why the dice for the mob activate enemy special attacks and NOT ther leader's dice, because he isn't using whatever typical form of attack the unit might use; he's using the weapon (so a fire demon leader won't cause burning without a burning weapon, because while he's a fire demon he's swinging a weapon not using his fire demon powers... the minions on the other hand). The confusion here is elsewhere the rules say the MOB is equipped with the weapon. And it is, specially the leader part of it as is spelled out on page 17. The MOB is divided into two parts: the LEADER and the MINION(S). Which is also spelled out in the rules. The mob refers to the unit group. The leader, and only the leader, having the weapon still means the MOB is equipped with it, not the ENTIRE mob, but still THE GROUP does have the weapon equipped, even if it's just one person within it. So yeah, it makes as much sense as anything else, and is in fact specified in the book. Feel free to download the PDF from CMON's website and check my work.
@donavinnorthrup4885
2 жыл бұрын
@@happyh.joyjoy654 I think we're both saying the exact same thing, except debating an interpretation/semantic. Rather the leader is only using the weapon, or the entire mob is using the weapon (Note I didn't use plural - I said 'Weapon'), the attack is the exact same. Because the mob attacks you. Not a single minion, as you've indicated. I think it's better to think of the mob as protecting the boss - They hit you back when you're on the offense, and but 'protect the boss' when you're on the defense. (Thus no black die on the attack). Honestly I think most of the debates in this game come from just people having different visions for how to themetically appreciate the rules.
@twentysides
2 жыл бұрын
Does it at least make sense for 1 and 2 players? I know that's the only count I'll ever play this with.
@svai303
2 жыл бұрын
I've played 2 quests so far with 2 heroes and yes, it's playable. But I think with a higher player count it might be broken because of that, unfortunately. That only means one thing: not enough playstesting.
@twentysides
2 жыл бұрын
With a game like this with such a focus on the presentation, I have to think they encountered this at some point and had a choice to either fundamentally change gameplay to fix it (and then go through development and playtesting again) or call it good enough because the point of the game is the material spectacle and not the gameplay itself, and went with the latter.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
That’s my thought too. Jake. Rather than redesign a flaw, they patched it with a rule.
@twentysides
2 жыл бұрын
What if you used the standard rule for melee mobs in melee or ranged mobs at range, and if it's the other way around they only roll maximum one die? That would require you to take different approaches based on the mob or risk strong retributive attacks. I'll try it that way when my copy arrives.
@svai303
2 жыл бұрын
@@twentysides I went with the middle ground approach of "half the black dice, rounded down", if they only have a melee weapon. First I was making them move, but it doesn't make sense of they're already engaged with other heroes in their zone.
@dougcerulli8826
2 жыл бұрын
Where are your other heros? How about a paladin's ability to consecrate a zone and give the ability to reroll? Why rush in with a character that is currently only throwing one yellow die with no other modifiers, dice mitigation or support? What starting skills did you choose for all your heroes? This scenario appears to be setup just to make it look as negative as possible. If this is how you set up your turn in a real life game, then your character deserves to die ... LOL! Thematically, you can think of the dark dice as magic or psychological damage ... or the dungeon itself striking out at you. It is hardly anything I would call broken, especially since your concern is only really relevant at the very early stages of the game. The heroes quickly find gear and level up, making them exponentially stronger in short order. But in the end, if you don't like the game, you don't like it. To each his own.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the input, appreciate it. Game is already in the sale pile. Will continue to play and enjoy MD1, a much better game, IMO.
@geerstyresoil3136
2 жыл бұрын
Agree, there is a good KZitem comparison comparing MD1 and 2, and I feel MD2 fixes a lot things wrong with MD1 both in incorporating the darkness theme and unique hero diversity over the sameness hero excel spreadsheets in MD1. Dungeon Dive seems to be getting really hung up on the retaliate mechanic, but I feel it's pretty similar to games like Gloomhaven where in that game it also ignores shield(armor) as well, it does differentiate between range and melee retaliate but that makes more sense for a game like Gloomhaven which this is not. the big difference is MD2 has zones where Gloomhaven has hexes, it's a little more tactical and dependent on position in gloomhaven. I treat MD2 more like a Final Fantasy battle where once you engage positioning really doesn't matter as much. What matters is how you are geared and in what order you engage. I feel engaging first with a weak archer might not be the best scenario, probably try someone a little tankier at first with defensive mitgation; then fire with the new archer once a mob or two are down...
@ryanbrown9102
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting. Do you have any plan to play and review Bardsung?
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Yes.
@SneakyBadAssOG
6 ай бұрын
Well there is one rule you miss that would save you there. The amount of minions is not equal to the number of players. It's 1-2 for 2 minions, 3-4 for 3 and so on, no more than 6. But I agree that guaranteed damage is a bad mechanic. What I'm doing is adding blue/green dice with the attack roll with wounds being block-able, while boss also rolling black dice and no splash damage (erg you can damage boss after killing minion only in the next action). Being damaged from three tiles away doesn't make sense, but that would make ranged characters very OP.
@HerbJon
Жыл бұрын
Don't you have too many basic enemies in the enemy group? 1 per player and you're only one.
@trunk081
9 ай бұрын
It’s 2 if you’re solo. “If playing a single player game, the player must choose only 1 Hero, but treats all other rules as if playing with 2 Heroes, such as Roaming Monster’s Health and quantity of Minions on Mobs. The Hero has 4 actions per turn instead of the usual 3” And to the OP: As a necromancer, on my second game I got one shotted by the imps while attacking. I think the starting HP of 4 is way too low for any class solo. The weapon logic problem is just lazy design.
@siriactuallysara
2 жыл бұрын
I would do 1 of 2 things. First I will try to do this house rule. For every hit they get I will move them forward one space and once they get to the same location, then they will do damage. As well as doing the draw to you. Using there tails to pull you.
@ajurban2010
2 жыл бұрын
So the solution is use MD1 rules?
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Wont' really work with the way they changed everything.
@shawnfairbanks9339
2 жыл бұрын
Can you play MD 2 using MD 1 rules or is it a wildly different game? Ignoring the fact that that just sounds stupid I wonder if that’s all that’s needed to fix something that dumb.
@louiesamuel9189
10 ай бұрын
RANGE ATTACKS ARE TWO SPACES AWAY ONLY! A ranged stack can’t hit three spaces away.
@Filthyy1
2 ай бұрын
Wrong.
@louiesamuel9189
2 ай бұрын
@@Filthyy1 Your wrong is wrong.
@Filthyy1
2 ай бұрын
@louiesamuel9189 as long as you're one space away as a ranged attacker and have a direct line of sight you can target any enemy.
@epone3488
2 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad that's the way the game works. Its now a game I dont need to buy!
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Glad to be of service. :)
@craigambler3282
2 жыл бұрын
As Iifyra says only the leader has the weapon. Don't forget you can do turn order as you like. Send in best health guy first. Once you take 1 or two minions away and lose the dice the enemy become very easy. Some characters also ignore 1 damage when attacking and equipment does too. I quite like being very weak at the beginning as it builds you up. Wait until you are fighting better enemies,
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Not according the rules: According to the rule book: ""Mobs carry weapons, as shown by the Mob item card attached to them, which determines the attack type (melee, ranged, or magic)." - The item is supposed to determine the attack type. The entire mob is armed with the weapon.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Also, in MD1, a way better game, there are ways to mitigate counter attacks for every hero at every level.
@MonkyTube18
Жыл бұрын
very constructed example. Thats why i would not attack with the monk + bow first when you have 3 more heroes to choose from. Makes sense to reduce the minions first with a tank like hero
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
Still doesn’t explain how all of the sudden monsters have ranged weapons. Such a dumb mechanism.
@MonkyTube18
Жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive would be more broken if ranged attacks are riskless? You are right in terms of logic. But it does not bother me at all
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
Most games like this balance it in terms of ranged characters are safer, but have fewer hit points. This rule completely breaks all immersion into the game. It makes zero sense why the monsters would be able to retaliate at range. What's even the point of having ranged attacks if they can be hit by melee monsters? In any game where spacing matters, you need to have rules in place for range/melee engagement. MD2 completely throws that out, and, IMO, that makes it a very poorly made game.
@MonkyTube18
Жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive We have fun playing it... this game is not about immersiveness anyway. The 3x3 tiles are not very good for strategic positioning or attack types either. So if you look for that play something else... maybe descent
@MonkyTube18
Жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive I just read this in a forum: The weapon card you draw for a mob is the Leader’s weapon. The minions within that mob have assorted weapons abstracted by the game with the black dice. I like this idea...
@01hornsfan
2 жыл бұрын
It's a shame--we shouldn't be needing house rules or fan variants for a game this expensive, especially the second version of a game. This is one of the huge problems with crowdfunding--it's "buy before you try." For the amount of money board games cost these days, I just can't afford to keep making these gambles anymore.
@zethnar
2 жыл бұрын
There was a demo of the game available to play on Tabletop Simulator during the funding campaign. In this case you literally could try before you bought. If you didn't then that is kind of on you.
@SteveLEKORodrigue
2 жыл бұрын
@@zethnar : Trying a demo won't reveal flaws like this. You play a prototype that has been carefully crafted to showcase and sell a game, not to disappoint potential buyers.
@cygnusx-1256
2 жыл бұрын
@@zethnar they were literally still writing the rules when TTS was up for this. This mechanic and silly and they should just bring back the retaliate behavior of melee from MD1. Otherwise MD2 is really neat and full of improvements. MD1 was stupid broken for campaign mode and didn't make any sense. So MD2 is more balance overall but needs some polishing clarifications on the rules. (And the monster dash oard cards are pure rubbish, they printed on nearly standard printer paper. That's unacceptable. They should be gloss card stock at a minimum for this price)
@branboom3342
Жыл бұрын
If everyone would stop spending ridiculous money on CMON FOMO, they would change their business practices but i dont see that happening :(
@grayh5622
2 жыл бұрын
I understand that I'm not going to change your mind - not that I am incentivized to anyway. As far as I understand it, though, you are correct in this *worst case scenario* I've justified it to myself by likening it to a video game - they usually design enemies to have a melee option as well as a ranged option. In my head, the mob leader carries the weapon, but the minions surrounding him/her will take arrows/slashes for them while also trying to punish you while you aim your shot, for example. So in your scenario - these Nagas have a leader with a sword, and the rest of them see you aiming at them so they decide to spit acid at you. I personally don't need it to make thematic sense - but I think your comments about "carrying every ranged option despite only having a sword" is a little disingenuous borne (probably) from all your one-shot losses - which I certainly don't blame you for having hah. I played this with my brother and we both enjoyed it - lots of times where I forgot abilities on my character card, ability cards, item cards etc. Also very much a subtle thinking game imo....you can choose to resolve ONE black dice (or even one HALF of a black dice) before the others (or other half).... It can sometimes open up opportunities where getting wounded may help you avoid future damage, or reroll, etc.
@David-cz7mm
Жыл бұрын
You are 100% correct on how you play it. Not very realistic, but besides this the game is a lot of fun. I think it’s this combination of random weapons and monsters which are creating an interesting and ever changing experience 🥳🤗😀
@teestarbird4478
3 ай бұрын
I agree with what you're saying regarding ranged attacker vs a melee enemy, however you're also going "worst case scenario" here. In any "worst case scenario", the outcome is not going to be favorable, as it is the worst case scenario. Their claw ability only activates once per roll, so let's say you roll 4 claws, you'd only take 1 wound and end up in their zone.
@albertfajarito1
2 жыл бұрын
Okay those rules are broken and breaks any sort of immersion. I don't own the game.
@sethpeterson8261
2 жыл бұрын
Curious how you have a problem with this in MD2, when you loved Tiny Epic Dungeons and it has the same mechanic? When you attack an enemy they can counter-attack you back from any range (even if they're just melee). So regardless of weapon they can hit you back no matter what. And not just the minions/goblins, but every enemy type in the game, so it's even more prevalent. Yet you loved that game. You didn't even mention this as a problem for you, or making no sense thematically, or being broken in TED. How is that possible?
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Because Tiny Epic is more abstract in all the ways. Also, some things work in some games and not in others. It’s all a matter of how a game makes me feel while playing it.
@nerzenjaeger
Жыл бұрын
I haven't read the original rules, but the German rules clearly state the Leader is considered the one carrying the weapon, while the minions will do anything they can to protect their leader. So while I agree it's different than in other dungeon crawlers, to me it was obvious they would be using ranged and melee weapons to do so. Being ranged on the player's side at least has the advantage to go into shadow even if the enemy isn't. I totally understand why you wouldn't like the way it is handled here, though, it certainly is _not_ intuitive. Not broken though.
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
The rules clearly state the weapon is what the mob is equipped with, but you get the weapon when you kill the leader. It’s very clear. I’ve answered this like a hundred times in these comments. It’s thematically broken, and theme is king for me. Other people can overlook it and that’s great! I just can’t.
@nerzenjaeger
Жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive That might be true, but like I said, the *German* rulebook has a different wording (the game has also been released later here). And since I didn't ask you a question, there's nothing to answer. Again, in my case, even thematically, it's not broken. You don't like the particular game-y elements of MD2, that has long been established.
@jeremyboughtono2
2 жыл бұрын
It looks like a lot of silly design problems that ruined MD1 for me are in this version just different issues this time.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I really like MD1. But not this one.
@leifd1923
2 жыл бұрын
I've just read the mostly absurd comments on bgg. This rule could have create a nice scene in the youtube movie "The Gamers" but in a CMON game? From my point of view if a cmon game doesn't embrace the theme there is normally not much left worth to play. Or may be we should consider every mob armed with laser guns anxoiusly waitng being shoot by harmless archers on a suicide mission like suggested on bgg? I don't know I guess I lack the imagination
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Right? People were so quick to dismiss Massive Darkness 1, a game I like, and now people are super quick to defend Massive Darkness 2, a game that has many more flaws than MD1. It's really odd! In a thematic game, the number one most important thing is a dedication to the theme. If that breaks down, nothing else matters.
@geerstyresoil3136
Жыл бұрын
rename the black enemy dice to black chaos dice, there... thematically fixed :D
@shineLouisShine
Жыл бұрын
May I humbly ask how come you're cool with creating house rules for different games, And yet prefer to give up of this creation instead of coming up with house rules which will make you love it as if it the best dungeon crawl ever made..?
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
Expectations. They should have called this something else. It’s not MD2. Too many changes from the first one which I like a lot. Soon I’ll be revisiting this after being thoroughly disappointed with new expectations.
@shineLouisShine
Жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive That's a legit reaction, and who am I to judge a brokenhearted gamer. Nevertheless, with that being said, I know plenty of players that, out of principle, are against house rules. If they don't like the design - the game as a whole is forever banished from their life. You, on the other hand, have been blessed with the flexibility, creativity to receive a game which you don't like its design, and use your talent (as well as other people who share the same boat with you) - making the required changes and adjustments to make this creation shine for you. In my insignificant opinion, If you'll only be aware of this gift, And if you'll only accept the fact that with great power comes a great responsibility, You'll realize that a true sincere appreciation of your gift... of your superpowers... is by using it, By not allowing shattered expectations to take control over the way you adjudicate a game's fate. Where the 'not-in-my-school' anti-house-rules gamer won't be able to look beyond the designer vision, Either due to a respect, a lack of time, a talent or a sense of flexibility, You will be able to turn a tragic plot which currently ends up with a bloody disappointment - Into a creation which will forever remind you why you love this hobby so much. By channeling your talent... your superpowers... Towards a purpose of writing a new chapter in the existence of a dying creation, Not only that, by healing the flaws of an experience, a new one is being born, And not only that, a hole of despair in your soul will get filled with a new hope, But you'll manage to accomplish the ideal cosmic chemical achievement: A transformation of one form of an entity into another. No eye deception, no mind manipulations, no hidden information... Only a creative use of your set of tools - A. Taking control over the situation instead of being controlled by your emotions. B. Evaluate the requirements to a successful restructuring of the vision in order to deliver fun. C. Execute the chain reaction and polish the outcome to your satisfaction.
@TheDungeonDive
Жыл бұрын
I think I'm going to like it more the next time I get to it.
@p0ck3tp3ar
2 жыл бұрын
CMON games is very hit or miss.
@tristanwhitley
2 жыл бұрын
Wow... I avoided MD2 because it seemed like the class depth was just going to slow my playgroup down way too much and turn into a fiddly nightmare. And we aren't even talking about that here. I'm happy to stick with my MD1 collection :-)
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Same. Selling MD2. Keeping MD1.
@Infyra
2 жыл бұрын
The weapon on the mob is wielded by the leader, the other minions in the mob can have anything, throwing stones, ranged weapons etc. At least thats how I make thematic sense of it. As you said, this is the worst case scenario, at 5 players you get the better leather armor. The reroll tokens are really important to prevent this damage during the game.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
According to the rule book: " "Mobs carry weapons, as shown by the Mob item card attached to them, which determines the attack type (melee, ranged, or magic)." - The item is supposed to determine the attack type. But we're just supposed to pretend that the enemies are armed with whatever weapons they need for every single situation? Also, armor doesn't protect against black dice damage. In MD1, there were ways to mitigate counter attacks.
@davidk6269
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive It also doesn't make sense that the leather armor fails for ALL 5 attacks (the all-or-nothing aspect of the armor against multiple attacks is a head-scratcher). That just doesn't make sense.
@Infyra
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Yea, but you can reroll those black enemy dice with the reroll symbols. If you use a lifebringer token (after turning it over) you can always reroll 1 of the dice every combat, also the 5+ player version of the leather armor has this symbol too. Also the recover action allows you to get 2 health per action, so at low level with low hp it is essential to make sure to rest before attacking so get yourself up to full hp before rolling.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
@@Infyra Seems like they over complicated the great and simple mechanisms from MD1 to appease a different crowd, or something.
@forsakenbacon3208
2 жыл бұрын
@@Infyra this right here. Strategic logic. Very good advice.
@ewenneiertz8362
2 жыл бұрын
I don't have the game yet (yeaaah... they forget to start the translation for the french version 🙄) but the rule your describe is completly dumb. In MD1 a monster with a sword just moves towards you and that was it. I wouldn't have any objection here if the mob had a bow.
@ewenneiertz8362
2 жыл бұрын
Or on the first attack they make you come to them and do the 1 damage.
@pedrowayne4675
2 жыл бұрын
Yikes. …disappointing to say the least. Good news is, there is still a market to move that game along and reinvest into something else
@TitchmarshVillage
2 жыл бұрын
Indeed so. I am just about to sell both v1 and v2 Kickstarters in one massive bundle!
@jakubs7388
2 жыл бұрын
Hello. This Is the Reason: ONLY mob leader has the weapon and he is not rolling. Minions has this darkness magic (dice) and can use it all the time. Mob Is leading them So Minions attack when he does. Also in more than two players game you need to be clever. Sometimes Heroes may kill the whole mob And sometimes you Are killed - magic of dice roll. I would change nothing about gameplay :D :)
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
In the rules it clearly states that the item card dictates the weapon for the entire mob; I’ve quoted the exact passage elsewhere . Also, if the mobs have different weapons and have ranged weapons for counter attacks, then why don’t they use those ranged weapons on their turn? Do they forget from turn to turn what they are armed with? And why doesn’t my armor work on counter attacks? Do my heroes forget they’re wearing armor when they attack? It’s a dumb rule that breaks all thematic elements.
@jakubs7388
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive in rules is this: the weapon has the mob leader And when he dies, you get his weapon. Also, when Minion dies, the Black dice is removed from the pool next time. Attacking is leading the mob leader - ranged or melee item. It all makes Sence fore me. Balance Is the other thing. In counter attack there is just Black dice and they hit or doesnt hit - you can never block Black dice so why rolling defense? :D But I understand you. JUST saying how I play And do not worry about that :D have a nice day And play As you Wish! :)
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Here is the direct quote from the rule book: "Mobs carry weapons, as shown by the Mob item card attached to them, which determines the attack type (melee, ranged, or magic)." You get the weapon from the leader as a game reward, but the entire mob is armed with the weapon that determines the attack type. How can they retaliate with range, if they do melee attacks? The book doesn't say Leaders carry weapons, it clear says Mobs. Leaders carry the card in terms of game effects.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I understand that I seem to be the only person in the universe who doesn’t love this rule and game. :) I have to admire the creativity of users in coming up with thematic reasons why this works for them. Very creative!
@jakubs7388
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive It is completly OK that it's not working for you! :) I just wanted to tell you my reasons why it works for me. And I respect yours! Good day and thank you for answers! :)
@RC-kd3ue
3 ай бұрын
I didnt get this because i have heard how easy it is....now i dont know what to think :)
@TheDungeonDive
3 ай бұрын
I like super easy games, so.... :)
@dpm328ic
2 жыл бұрын
This new mechanic is a major reason why I did not back this game. Just flat out poor game design. IIRC, it was their attempt to streamline combat. In MD1, when in combat, you rolled your attack/monster defense then you rolled monster attack/your defense.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I love MD1. I'm a big defender of that game.
@dpm328ic
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive I enjoy it too. It has a few things that aren't great but as an evolution from Zombicide (which I also enjoy, Black Plague), it was well done. Much better as a scenario based game. The campaign rules are weak but serviceable. I was very interested in how MD2 was going to change character design but this stupid rule killed it for me.
@pierricksavidan4055
2 жыл бұрын
I guess i'll try vanilla rules then house rules with the following : Scratch effect is "repeat [level]". So, frequently 1 wound retalation at lower level and never OS at level 1, and sometime OS at higher level which would give much more way to mitigate.
@adamgardner2244
2 жыл бұрын
I dont have an answer cause I don't have the game but if those rules are correct, then thats disappointing. Seems weird to me. I have MD1 but haven't played it yet unfortunately. Glad this crap isn't in it. I'd like to know the answer to this as well incase I ever get this game.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
MD1 is great. Super fun. Just ignore the tacked on campaign rules.
@ewenneiertz8362
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive I complete the campaign with house rules for the xp. Classic xp in a pool for everybody, and nobody can take a level 3 ability as long as they don't have all a level 2 and no new level up for a characters as long as they all level up. I also tried to flat the level curve for the tiles (ex party level 3, starting tile lvl 2, next tiles lvl 3, and final tile lvl4). That worked preaty well. The missions just missed a lot of steps, like find the key to open the door. That would force you to explore and not just run to the exit killing every thing in front... But yeah, with all that, the campaign was kinda cool !
@jdebarr
2 жыл бұрын
Simple....They threw their swords at you.....
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Then why do they still have them the next attack? :D
@jdebarr
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Ok, You got me....Maybe you missed because they deflected the arrow back at you with their swords, and it was at such an angle that they deflected the same shot 4 times :-p Some games you have to use your imagination.
@pierricksavidan4055
2 жыл бұрын
I guess that's just the tragic flaw that was spotted, highlighted and criticized from the first day they let us know that rule through the rulebook in the campaign. I was hoping that they'd done their job and corrected that fatal flaw. Seems not. BGG is not a fair space for these game : people were talking about minis art and pose more than rules, gameplay and what make the game a game... Fancy token will always be less important than rules, but CMON fanboys would never acknowledge that. I've backed the french gameplay all in, and i'm still waiting they make the french game, so i can't be crushed by bad design rules... i'm not eager to. TLDR : bad design rule flaw was signaled day one, seems never corrected. Pity CMON sell minis more than game as i want game not pretty token.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I don't think CMON develops their games at all. They do an initial design, and then that's it. Print it.
@tadaka2394
2 жыл бұрын
Ok so your not playing it wrong from a rules perspective but tacticly this is very bad play. So some classes i recomend the wizard has a spell that lets you do 3 damge with out an attack roll. Use abilities like his to pick off a few minions. Then use a hero who is able to roll better then a single yellow die. Monk is a support class tossing him head long is going to fail. This is 100% doable but ya got to be smarter about how you fight a fresh mob.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
That’s my problem with MD2. They made it more like a puzzle game and less like the great monster bash of MD1. They listened to the people who didn’t like MD1, and made MD2 worse, when MD1 is a great zero-to-hero monster bash. So sticking with that and sold MD2.
@tadaka2394
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive i supose. I think this ended up a much better game personaly. But sorry ya dont like it. Md1 was far 2 strait forward. I love the classes in this one. Just wish the art would have stayed like md1.
@farman2table
2 жыл бұрын
You're not doing anything wrong but the game balance would be all wonky if ranged attacks never got punished
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Thousands of other games seem to handle it OK without creating weird rules to balance it.
@farman2table
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive yeah I mean there are games with overall better combat interactions (Descent 2e for example) but for this particular ruleset I don't see how you would fix it. You'd be overhauling the entire game at that point.
@farman2table
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive actually maybe not. Here's what you do. You take away the retaliation claw but you give them extra shield dice. Right? That's a nerf on the entirety of ranged damage though...
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
That’s why I simply added this to the sell pile and kept MD1, a much better game.
@Zexeptio
Жыл бұрын
Why using a monk with only 4 HP without a possibility to mitigate the monster dice against 4 minions and the leader ? do you try to play badly on purpose to say the game is poorly designed ? because it's the worst play you can do. For sure, you will most likely die. Use a beefy hero first to weaken the minions, use abilities, de-buffs and don't forget the token to revive your hero grant a monster die reroll when used. With fewer players you may play a bit less carefully, but at 4 or even 6 players, you need to use the synergies and the powers of the heroes and play cooperatively. I agree though, the retaliation is not very RP. But I guess its a mechanism to avoid to snipe minis with a full ranged team or else the poor hand-to-hand fighter will not be able to play. Nobody would play them. Just being a door opener in case of ambush and a meat wall from time to time is not very exiting.
@TitchmarshVillage
2 жыл бұрын
The game has always been broken - since the first edition. It is a typical Kickstarter example of style over substance. Don’t waste your time trying to make it work. There are far better dungeon crawlers out there that are a joy to play.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Nope. Not wasting any time. Game went to the sell pile.
@Katoh64
2 жыл бұрын
How people still buy CMON games in 2022 is beyond my understanding. Some customers never learn.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I love Massive Darkness 1 - really great zero to hero, monster bash. The closest thing to Diablo the Board Game. I also really love Cthulhu Death May Die. It's one of the 50 best games ever made, according to some dude on the Dungeon Dive.
@Katoh64
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive MD 1 had a lot of problems on release, iirc similar to the ones you are showing now and some serious issues in difficulty scaling. In fact, this MD2 was an attempt to adress those problems. CDMD I have not played, but the absolute disconnect from the theme makes me not want to. Could be brillant mechanics-wise but I do not know. All their other games have the exact same life cycle: hype, lots of stuff mostly minis, release, serious issues and dissappointment. They are great at minis and Kickstarter but they really need to fine tune their desing team...
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I'm a huge reader of pulp fiction, and collector of vintage paperbacks, so the theme of DMD is perfect for me. It's one of the best examples of pulp fiction in board game form that I know of. There are many, many different ways to approach weird pulp fiction.
@Katoh64
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Weird pulp? Sure. Cthulhu mythos? Not a chance. It has nothing to do with Lovecraft. And I, personally, am tired of companies stapling Cthulhu everywhere with zero effort to actually use the IP. But thats something personal, and even minor, if the game is good.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I don't subscribe to the theory that there is only one way to depict mythos fiction. For me, the mythos actually has very little to do with Lovecraft, and hasn't for many decades. He barely wrote about the mythos. The mythos belongs to everyone, and different creators have their own take on it. No need for gatekeeping, and one take doesn't negate another. CMD is not a Lovecraft game, it's a mythos game. Brian Lumley actually influenced the on going mythos stuff way more than Lovecraft did. One of the very best examples of this is Edward M. Erdelac's "Merkabah Rider" series which mixes Cthulhu mythos with Jewish mysticism, in which a Kabbalistic cowboy fights elder beings with infernal canons and glyph-marked six-shooters. It's a masterpiece. Or From Software's BloodBorne, which mixes cosmic horror with an action RPG. For me, there is no right or wrong way to interpret the mythos, and every single author who has ever done it has done it different. But I understand that other people have a more conservative ideal definition of what they want out of it. Just different approaches for different outcomes.
@cygnusx-1256
2 жыл бұрын
I don't quite understand the major gripe about the Monster's dice being added for ranged attacks? If you are stuck in the frame-of-mind in the the context-of the theme only. Then okay, yeah it's odd even if you consider that the game says, "it's the darkness damaging you" But if you think about it mechanically, it makes sense to have the potential for damage on actions. I mean think about DnD and rolling a critical fail, it doesn't make sense that you hurt yourself opening a box, or throwing a rock at something. But having someone give you a thematic explanation serves it up in a way that 99% of the time players just roll with it. How is this any different? There's a percentage chance on every attack action that you may take damage. Makes sense, otherwise what's the risk in combat for ranged/magic at all. You can theme it anyway you want with your group, "oh, your spell had unexpected effects and you suffer two wounds, but you have smote the demon imps" I seriously don't get the complaint if you put it in context mechanically. There are so many games that do similar things just in a different flavor. I think MD2 plays well so far and my group's biggest complaint is it's too easy for us so far. Still waiting on the campaign and some expansion boxes to arrive, so we'll see after further plays.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the detailed comment! Really appreciate your take on it. So glad you love the game!
@erikpeters7072
2 жыл бұрын
Well thanks for helping me avoid this game. Looks like CDMD is still the only CMON game worth owning
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I love MD1 as well.
@retretlol
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Project Elite is petty good as well but it's basically a deluxe version of an existing game.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
@@retretlol I need to try that some time, but it doesn't look like it's very good solo to me.
@retretlol
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive It's definitely better with a group but it's quite enjoyable solo as well.
@ActionHeinz
2 жыл бұрын
I'm against the popular advice of house ruling the game. I hate house ruling! It's like cheating... I don't like a mechanic? Screw it, my game my rules? No way! It's not my job to make up rules for a game I paid a lot of money for. I can totally understand why this retaliate mechanic feels broken. I remember it is a thing since the rules were published together with the TTS demo. People generally did not like it and CMON couldn't or didn't want to find another solution as it seems. I saw many suggestions for changes. Rolling only one black die, rolling only as many dice as your current level is or you can only go down to min. 1 hp so you can't die by retaliation but you have to discard a loot/gear card instead. Thematically there's really no satisfying explanation why an enemy can retaliate ranged but can't attack ranged. Generally I see why it's there because without it, ranged attacks would be way overpowered, making melee attacks more or less pointless. But it seems not very well implemented, unfortunately.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
My buddy came up with a cool solution that could work. When retaliating against a ranged attack, the mob MOVES one area closer to the attacking hero for each claw mark.
@ActionHeinz
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Yes, heard of that. Sounds like it could work. But than it's up to CMON to implement this rule into the game and make it official.
@robertmcginley5510
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive That's seems like it's a really good house rule and makes thematic sense as well
@arcubal
2 жыл бұрын
I'm gonna go against popular opinion here and say, 'Don't give up on a game just because the rules are broken.' Fix them, houserule it. Make it, first of all, thematically realistic (cuz why else play the game?) and just say, 'No. If any character is equipped with a melee weapon, they simply cannot attack NOR retaliate at distance. Period.' Also, retaliation bypasses armour? Poppycock. Simple fixes. Doesn't make the game worthless. Don't jump to knee-jerk reactions (rule doesn't work so must sell). Be flexible. And yeah, maybe don't buy from the same designers again?
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I loved MD1, so I thought I would like MD2. Seems somewhat logical. :) My issue is space. I just don't have the space to keep games I don't like, especially games that need many boxes to store. If I had a bigger hobby room, I'd be keeping MD2 for sure. The main issue here is that if you change this one rule, it causes a domino effect on other things, so I'd basically be re-designing the game. That could be worthwhile, for sure, I'm just not sure I'm up for it right now.
@jadeapiata6545
3 ай бұрын
It bothered me also, but i rollplay that instead of it being a counter attack, every enemy has what i call the demonic blessing of corruption that acts like an dark aura that has a chance to MAGICALLY harm the attacker back, thematically that helped me enjoy the game so much more
@SL1M73
2 жыл бұрын
Poor game design. I would trade pile it.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I did. :)
@AndrewBeisel
2 жыл бұрын
This is not the way to think about this. You spawned 5 mobs some of them have throwing weapons and bows. The notable thing and the loot is the melee weapon that adds that when they attack. Image this being a cinematic combat, or Diablo style combat with enemy mobs coming at you with a myriad of attack styles.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I’m super stoked it works for you!
@teodatankgaming1001
2 жыл бұрын
Well, bad RNG can definitely be that way - But you chose to attack a group of 5 with a single yellow, so it's definitely a possibility. I think the video would have been more well received had you done a real roll in the example and as explaining it. Vs intentionally out-lining a "I'm dead" scenario. I personally am finding MD2 easy so far, only going through quests. We'll start Campaign this weekend, but I find it a bit more difficult than MD1, but still very easy so far.
@teodatankgaming1001
2 жыл бұрын
Oh wow, disregard me entirely. I found your thread on BGG complaining about this to the extreme. Strongly recommend to new players to not take this 'complaint' to heart. Hyper emotional reaction to a simple rule - Which thematically I like when you remember you are engaging into 'combat' with a group of enemies. Not taking a 5 second D&D turn of 'running and shooting'. Combat being the emphasis word, not "an attack". Combat.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Why do the enemies have ranged attacks when the enter combat sometimes, but not when they enter combat other times? Dumb rule, dumb game. Massive Darkness 1 is way better. But I realize I am in the minority in that opinion, and that's perfectly fine. :)
@garathminis5108
2 жыл бұрын
So Massive Darkness was a major screw-up. That game also had a similar mechanism except you could mitigate it by running in with a warrior and the firing with a mage and archer. The mobs would not fire back if engaged. This basically ment : Shoot the choppy stuff, chop the shooty stuff. And the game still sucked big time. Boring as hell. You would win if you had luck with the items. If you get the items quick, you win .If you don't, you loose. The only reasons I did not sell the game is the models are nice and that...nobody would buy the game. There is a solution. Get some indie mechanism and use it with these models.
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
I like MD1. Super fun zero to hero monster bash.
@garathminis5108
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Good! Maybe the solution is to convert 2nd ed to 1st ed? It would be reverse engineering...of a sort but if it works for you, then all the better.
@Archytas-Leroy55
2 жыл бұрын
Almost all of the CMON games are broken in one way or another. IDK.
@VaultBoy13
2 жыл бұрын
Unless you're referring to the Kickstarter exclusives, that's just not true. I only like a handful of CMON games, but most play fine out of the box.
@johnberry5296
2 жыл бұрын
Seems awful!
@justanerd1138
2 жыл бұрын
Sigh. Looks like we'll have to fix the rules together on BGG. Did they play test this? We'll have to retrofit this back to the better MD1 ruleset.rules etc. I hate when they do cheesy crap to fix game balance that ruins immersion (like make your enemies more powerful when the counter than when they actually attack).
@TheDungeonDive
2 жыл бұрын
Apparently everyone on BGG loves the rule I'm the only one who has a problem with it.
@justanerd1138
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive Well... some people (often game snobs) seem to love brutal coops over fun game play. I don't get it.
@Mark-nh2hs
2 жыл бұрын
If it's popular BGG will defend it no matter how bad the rules are........ Lol
@robertharvey5904
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheDungeonDive The responses here versus BGG are both quite strong but strikingly different in the direction of the preference. I don't think I have a problem with the black dice, but I am still waiting on my copy. I certainly had a big problem with MD1 counter attack mechanics in that it was way too easy to out power the monsters after the first tile and then they rarely got to attack at all (counter or otherwise). Two attacks and the monster spawn died without any counter (as long as they died). I think MD2 is trying to mitigate that issue, plus add to the meaning of the minion models next to the leader as that was commonly seen as a flaw of MD1 too. My longest and most involved house rules were for MD1. I love it so, but boy was it flawed. I hope that is not the case for MD2. The parts I like of MD make the tweaking worth it though. I really enjoy what it (they?) do right. Heck, I adore Shadows of Brimstone, but I tweak bits of that game too. Other games are often just not worth it (to me) to fiddle with.
@michaelmueller260
2 жыл бұрын
Thankfully the terrible art makes up for the absurdly poor rules.
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