Thoroughly enjoying this. As well as the fact that I recognize the voices of many of the questioners. Trinity Sem for the win!
@jeffallanday
Жыл бұрын
I notice he quotes from a lot of people as if they are correct. Like many quotes from Tim Keller and the famous quote from C.S. Lewis. I have a great deal of problems with this way of looking at Hell because it doesn't really deal with what the Bible says and what the 1st century jews would have understood what Jesus was saying. He seems to be falling into the very issue that Chris Date brought up in his talk which I highly recommend. Coming at the issue of Hell with presuppositions. And often quoting from people who had presuppositions.
@tankthomus
Жыл бұрын
I agree, I am a big fan of Michael’s work but I think his view of Hell isn’t supported well by the scriptures. A lot of the concepts he proposed don’t seem to come straight from the scriptures but from some other Christians own theories which were then based upon other theories.
@cryptojihadi265
10 ай бұрын
Exactly, the VAST majority of people's conceptions of hell come from writers, preachers and pagan mythology. Josh McDowell bragged about telling a kid about how people who struggle with lust will be dealt with in Hell. He goes into this long, detailed description that NEEDLESS to say is NOWHERE in the Bible. Yet, he told this poor kid his well a-- fantasy as if it were Biblical doctrine. Where the Hell did he even come up with it? Pardon the pun. But this is how twisted and sick the ECT preachers are. They are so far off the reservation, they have no clue they are literally adding to the Bible, something I believe is STRICTLY forbidden. The reason they have to rely so much on their wild imaginations is because the Bible doesn't go into all this detail they expect to be there. The reason is, because the Bible DOES spell it out, it's just not what they are expecting. Hell is the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Unlike the first death, the second death is eternal, there is no escape from it, no resurrection. Now what the lake of fire does is also explained, it kills, burns-up, consumes, destroys, causes to perish or vanish. All fates are expressly written in the Bible. However, because they go in with this idea of hell being eternal conscious torment, they are forced to dream up all kinds of sick fantasies to fill in the gaps of a doctrine that is not mentioned AT ALL in the Bible Same thing with Heaven. Pastors trying to figure out what Heaven is going to be like. Ummm, we don't go to Heaven. Heaven is God's throne, the KINGDOM of Heaven comes HERE and THIS is where He establishes His throne in the New Heaven and Earth.
@johnnastrom9400
3 ай бұрын
@@tankthomus And your view is not supported by the scriptures either.
@jeffallanday
Жыл бұрын
Mark and Chris ask wonderful questions. They really hit on the problems with this particular idea of the Psychology of Hell. Mental anguish is just no where to be found in the Bible in referencing what Christ suffered. That question was just not answered. And Marks question about the Hell locked on the inside is not answered either. This really shows the difference we have come in Christianity from Jonathan Edwards, Calvin, Spurgeon who believed that the fire was literal. But there really hasn't been any really good arguments from the ECT side showing why Edwards, Calvin, and Spurgeon were wrong. I really wish we could get an ECT person that would specifically address why most ECT Theologians and scholars have abandoned literal fire.
@pjdelucala
7 ай бұрын
The Kingdom of heaven is within you. The kingdom of hell is within you. It is all up to you with your beliefs and choices. Hell is frustration, anger, despair, anguish and all the rest. Heaven is joy, creativity, love, laughter, excitement and all the rest. Heaven is a thought away. Hell is a thought away. The Prodigal Son went from hell to heaven. Jesus learned obedience from his suffering. We all have experienced heaven and hell. Choose.
@WilliamTanksleyJr
6 ай бұрын
None of that is how Christ described hell (which is not a kingdom but rather a place like a valley). When He used the Greek word "Gehenna" to speak of hell, he said it's like a valley of corpses slain by the LORD... not like being sad.
@WilliamTanksleyJr
6 ай бұрын
None of that is how Christ described hell (which is not a kingdom but rather a place like a valley). When He used the Greek word "Gehenna" to speak of hell, he said it's like a valley of corpses slain by the LORD... not like being sad.
@pjdelucala
6 ай бұрын
@@WilliamTanksleyJr It can be a place that you find yourself. A valley of corpses sounds like Ukraine and Gaza. Very sad. It may get worse. Listen to some Rabbis on UTube and their explanation of hell and heaven. Jews don't believe in the Christian type of hell. Hell is the fire you feel that can change your life. It is a condition that can be overcome much like the Prodigal Son did.
@pjdelucala
6 ай бұрын
@mTanksleyJr The lord as you are using it doesn't slay but there is the idea of what you sow you reap which is the Law. The word Lord and Law are interchangeable. God is as Jesus described God as Our Father. A father is loving and supporting not a killer. Read the story of the Prodigal Son to better understand the true nature of God. Ignore what is in the Old Testament. It is way off.
@WilliamTanksleyJr
6 ай бұрын
@@pjdelucala - who did Jesus teach us to fear?
@lukegaier9490
Жыл бұрын
What of those who expect to enter into Heaven to whom the Lord says, "depart from Me. I never knew you", or the man at the wedding feast who snuck in without the proper attire? Doesn't the Lord forcefully cast these out of His presence and consign them a place with the wicked? Certainly they wanted in, but weren't allowed.
@oscarmagana8322
11 ай бұрын
I would argue that they want to come in on their own terms, which is sort of what his presentation was about. Just like you can believe in Jesus, but if you refuse to repent and be sanctified, it doesn’t matter how much you want in. That line from Jesus you quoted also works great with the idea of exile being Gods main form of punishment in the Old Testament.
@cryptojihadi265
10 ай бұрын
It's UNBelievable how many people treat the Rich Man and Lazarus as some doctrinal teaching on the afterlife and not a parable. The idea that because Jesus used Lazarus's name that means it's not a parable, is absurd, for two reasons. First, NOWHERE in the Bible does Jesus or ANYONE else say that IF I use proper names, I am telling an actaul story to teach doctrine, but IF I don't use real names, it's a parable. Second, Lazarus isn't the main character. The Rich Man is. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees to break them of their false belief that IF you are prosperous that means you have God's favor and if you are poor, then God hates you. Sounds kind of like the prosperity heresy we have today. That being said, the main character is NOT named. So there you go, it's a parable. The story is clearly not used to indicate how the afterlife works UNLESS you want to believe that MILLIONS of righteous people are all piled up on Abraham's bosom. Oh! Abraham's bosom isn't literal, it's metaphorical, it's really just the name of paradise where people wait to go to heaven? Sorry, can't play both sides, is this story literal or not? Also, it's clear the story IS talking about Abraham as guess who the Rich guy talks to? Abraham, not Lazarus. So, in this parable, Lazarus is actually resting on Abraham's bosom. So, if this is an actual story telling us what happens when we die, then enjoy the mass pile of bodies trying to rest on Abraham's chest. Next, you have to believe that we can actually talk to people being tormented in Hades, which obviously means we can hear their screams of agony. WOW, what a peaceful paradise He's created for the righteous! This assumption is literally so absurd, preachers have actually postulated that the joys of heaven will be all the more sweat as they are contrasted with the screams of the damned in the Lake of fire. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE, except a completely demon possessed psychopath would have their joy sweetened by hearing the screams of people in agony. But these are the INSANE logical hoops you have to jump through when you take a parable and try to make it literal. Also, hades is NOT the lake of fire. Hades gets thrown into the lake of fire, so this is NOT the final punishment of the wicked anyway. Why Jesus used imagery from Greek and Babylonian mythology is certainly puzzling, but it's probably because of the Hellenized Jews that adopted a lot of the worldly teachings of their time, kind of like the modern church today. He didn't want to get into an argument about the afterlife, so he just told the story in terms they could accept and understand, but the key point being that they will not fare well in the judgment. Their riches are a sign of their corruption, NOT God's favor. Also, I think Jesus mentioned Lazarus's name specifically because the Rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers, but Abraham said, no, even if a man were to rise from the dead, they would not believe. Well, lo and behold, Jesus DID end up raising a man named Lazarus from the dead, and not only did the Pharisees (those he was telling the parable to and the ones associated with the Rich Man) NOT believe, but they actually sought to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. They didn't want their power and wealth threatened by Jesus spreading the REAL Truth about God. So, the parable NAILED it and drove the message home, but it was NOT a story of what happens when we die.
@storba3860
Жыл бұрын
The problem with this philosophical argument is it calls into question the purpose of the Lake of Fire. Hell gives up its dead and those not written in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The resurrection of the damned is also in the New Testament.
@jeffallanday
Жыл бұрын
I agree.
@johnnastrom9400
3 ай бұрын
You really show your desperation when you quote from the book of Revelation. You show your ignorance in not knowing what scholars say about this book or the fact that it was never meant to be taken literally.
@thomasfryxelius5526
Ай бұрын
I really like Michael Jones, and CS Lewis. This is one issue where I cannot agree at all. I sometimes wish I thought this was true, but it doesn´t seem biblical. Lewis says Hell is locked from the inside, but the Bible says over and over that God throws people out. Depart from me, He says when they plead to get in. Another aspect that´s missing here is justice and punishment. You create your own Hell means you are left on your own. The Bible says people will be punished in accordance with what they have done. Finally, why are so many saying that the real sacrifice of Jesus was a kind of mental anguish and not the physical? The Bible focuses on His physical suffering, (by His stripes we are healed) the blood and also His death. I don´t know any text that supports the idea that the mental suffering was central.
@jarrettalyssaneville1122
Жыл бұрын
Who is Lazaruth?
@attached3245
Жыл бұрын
You'd probably make fun of Moses' speech too
@jarrettalyssaneville1122
Жыл бұрын
@@attached3245 He pronounced it correct a couple of times, it isn't his "speech" it is just being careless to pronounce it correctly. He did the same thing in his video on "Sampson". It is one of the main subjects of your entire talk and you can't take the time to figure out how to say the name correctly?
@attached3245
Жыл бұрын
@@jarrettalyssaneville1122 It sounds like he has trouble saying "s" sounds in certain placements. Idk. Yea it's a funny comment but I was just expressing disdain for the lack of anything substantial to accompany your jesting. No hard feelings man
@maryludwig690
Жыл бұрын
I always get Nazareth and Lazarus mixed up
@jarrettalyssaneville1122
Жыл бұрын
@@attached3245 No hard feelings, just expressing disdain for what you said. All good man, we are all here to share.
@DavidGuess-uq1ue
Жыл бұрын
Yall criticize univerlisam to much and don't even consider it or take it seriously at all or any of the same amount of respect you give to ECT
@WilliamTanksleyJr
6 ай бұрын
Not true; Rethinking Hell's second conference was expressly about universalism. We had universalists give plenary and breakout sessions, and I personally attended one and then watched the rest on video. In addition, I gave a breakout session myself covering Robin Parry's discussion of Revelation. Now, we have needed to step up for a while, so you should notice that we've been doing a good deal of RH Live episodes on universalism.
@jdkrider
Жыл бұрын
It's hilarious that his very first example about hell isn't even about hell. Instant disqualification for someone who can't tell the difference between hades and hell in a story Jesus drew from Egyptian mythology.
@JoBo301
11 ай бұрын
I thought exactly the same - the rich man will not stay in Hades, but will be cast into the lake fire which is the second death.
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