If a game only has a few mods I would consider that game as a finished product. If the game is fun to play without mods I would also consider that a finished product. A good game that has lots of mods I would consider that a platform built on a finished product. A game that is bad/not fun to play without mods I would consider a platform/unfinished product. A mediocre game that is mostly played with mods I would call a platform. For me this really comes down to if the game is a good game without mods or not.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Absolutely. Can I play it without mods? If yes - finished product. if not - development platform Can I enjoy it more WITH mods? Then a finished product, maybe a bad finished product, but still a finished product.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Oh and nice to see you after so long @lordlard2833 Always nice to have commentary from my regulars (new and old)
@xLeonar
5 ай бұрын
I think a great example of a game that is an incredible finished product, which is also still being actively developed and enhanced, is Minecraft. That being said, it is also clear that it became one of the largest development platforms, not only for modders, but also for map creators, for servers with its own minigames, and many other ways that people want to use it for. As you've mentioned, some people can use these platform in order to propel themselves into the professional world, as the creators of one of the best known Minecraft servers, Hypixel, have done. Some years ago they've started their own development studio Hypixel Studios, and are currently working on the game Hytale. In it, they are trying to create a sort of a Minecraft clone that is also supposed to provide its community with all of the tools they need in order to enhance the experience of the game. I think its great that so many people find modding to be an incredibly important part of games, and it seems that some studios use this opportunity in order to expand the purview of their creations. That being said, I don't see a reason not to call games finished products as long as they provide what their development teams had set out to do with them. That, of course, doesn't necessitate their success and might be the perfect grounds for modders to jump in since they, as you say, might be more in touch with what the playerbase really wants from the experience. Is it possible that some teams have plans to use modders as a substitute for developers? Sure, and I belive that those sort of people usually out themselves by not standing up to what they had set out to do. By doing so, they often lose credibility in the eyes of their playerbase who are then more likely to gravitate towards healthier and more transparent communities.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Minecraft is an absolute gem of an example, both with how mods can impact the game all the way to how modders can become a development studio on their own.
@TakaChan569
5 ай бұрын
Any game could be seen as a platform as long as it has a big enough community for modders to want to build for, and unless the base game is just truley unplayable without them then mods are just a cherry on top. Devs can only make a game so big or they would never come out, so mads dding to that is just how it should be. The whole this is kinda odd though as when you see the stats, not as many people mod their games as people own them on the internet would like people to believe. One thing is the number of mads some games have are kinda inflated buy the shear number of outfit and basic char beauty mods that tend to have like 4 -5 different versions including the body conversion ones.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
That is well said. I didn't know much about modding until I got into one particular community and then I found out its a whole new world.
@GeorgeNoX
5 ай бұрын
I appreciate modding in games, in fact i made some of them myself in the past. In case of Cyberpunk 2077 especially it did made the game a lot better for sure, even though IMO it was already one of the best games i ever played straight out of the box, even at launch when it had all kinds of bugs. Modding just enables people to achieve some alternate goals for the game that they already enjoy. I played CK3 unmodded and i also played both Game of Thrones mod and Warcraft mod and both bring those alternate experiences to the table that the original game doesn't. Modding is only a positive overall IMO. Any game can be out of the box already a finished product and still be a great platform for modding, but also modding can help out those games that are not finished in the eyes of players and try to make them better and more fun as a result. Either way, it is overall a net positive IMO because mods can bring a bad game to a good state and help bring that game out there to more people. Skyrim is a perfect example, there is a reason why Bethesda keeps re-releasing it, and IMO that is unlikely to happen if mods didn't existed for that game
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
I think you are spot on. I think modding can take a bad game (or more specifically a poorly received game) and make it better and maybe even good. Modding can take a great game and make it even better or give it an alternative feel. Good is the enemy of best; but best is the enemy of better.
@marciusnhasty
5 ай бұрын
I can't call all the games unfinished products. But if both Skyrim and Starfield came with UI that was immediately modded into much much better one, those ones I absolutely can. Oblivion is a question mark, as some people enjoyed entire world leveling with them. I only played it with rebalance mod that made NPC levels static or capped. CDPR games have to be modded outside of Steam so that the same mod can be used with GOG version of their titles. Beauty of Paradox games is how mod friendly they are. Edit: DotA and Counter Strike started as mods. Former was birth of a genre and both were 100% built on completed products. Neither Warcraft 3 nor Half Life were unfinished products at launch. Value was insane. Riot created League of Legends and Valve used DotA 2 and Counter Strike to get people onto Steam.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
All good points. Thank you for sharing.
@-whiskey-4134
5 ай бұрын
In my case, modding comes after playing the game how it was meant to be played. If it’s a good game and nothing else fills the same gap, I’ll mod it for more fun. It’s not like back in the day when we could get books of cheats for every game in every platform. I mod Skyrim because it’s a great game and I wanted to bring it up to modern standards. Really, it’s just fun new ways to enjoy something you already love. As long as it’s not negatively impacting others games or time, I say go for it. I think mod authors should get more attention. Tbh, if more of these people were in the industry, games would be amazing again in a bigger scale.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
I absolutely agree with this. Although, some mods do break functionality of the game that you don't find out until later in the game, the mod itself is fun. If more "Modding minded people" were involved in the game development, there would/could be some improvement for replay ability of games.
@MediocreNed
5 ай бұрын
I think the biggest issue you didn't address is the legality of directly incorporation mods into the game, or at least the proper way to do it. I know it may seem like a trival statement, but bethseda did get into to some hot water with the fallout 4 dlc where the whodunit sidequest was suspiciously similar to a fanmade whodunit sidequest. Granted that seems more of a plagiarism thing, but it seems really intertwined with the legal issues of fan fiction/works as a whole.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
That is something that I probably should have addressed, and I could in the future. Part of the problem is in some of the TOS verbiage (and I don't know the Fallout 4 TOS exactly) but in some of it is says if you make a mod for our game, we can basically take that idea and run with it without providing you compensation. As I did talk about, some companies are paying modders for their work. They do pay community members for lore, stories, ideas, etc. I think most companies are greedy and shifty, but it would be nice for a few companies to be decent.
@KryoTronic
5 ай бұрын
Development platforms. I made very few, very basic mods, they weren't finished products and really need updated tbh but they exist because I was able to easily use the platform to make said mods. But I will say some mods are finished products, it's just that is because the game was the dev platform for a, usually better, product via mods lol
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Some mods are absolutely finished products. I'm playing through a CK3 campaign with two amazing mods that add so much to the game, that PDX should reach out to those modders and pay them for the mods.
@CpZ-Z-Z
5 ай бұрын
100% yes. Modding allows the the player to customize the game to their enjoyment and in some cases, makes the game play completetly different
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
I will say, some of the total conversion mods for CK3 are better than Vanilla CK3.
@chaz706
5 ай бұрын
The ideal answer is YES.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
100% Yes.
@elissross7304
5 ай бұрын
Arma 3 nowdays is basically not played without mods by majority of players. It has huge modding community and I think without that the game wouldn't even be played today. I wish they made the DLCs free becuase like this no one plays the Arma 3 DLCs even though they add good content but problem is they are quite expensive for what they add becuase players still have to make the content themselves in eden editor (mission editor).
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Can't really do free DLC because the devs have to make money too. Although if its not being played without mods, I'd question how good of a job the devs are doing.
@zeryphex
5 ай бұрын
2:53 Developers should learn from the previous ten years, learn why games are modded, then develop future games with all those features included at baseline / at launch / at release ... then developers should seek to reduce the modding community to a fraction of what it is ... simply because they are including all those features in their games already. This is an opportunity, not a handicap.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
4 ай бұрын
I agree with this. If a MMORPG developer's game is being supported by mods and add-ons, and those mods and add-ons are used by a majority of the players, it makes sense to consider adding those features to the game.
@rara3538
5 ай бұрын
depends on the game but you can't beat the collective no matter how hard you try. infinite amounts of people doing something for free will always result in more and better than a couple of people doing something for money, or with passion but they still need to get paid they cant just pump all this time into their product for free. if you allow modding it's going to happen either way, whether your game is done or not. modding is also an option, so it's personal customization, game devs don't possibly have the time to ever put so many options into their games. it's really a case by case thing
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
Very well said and a great perspective. Its also a way to make sure everyone gets what they want. Mods all people to get the bits and bobs they want, without the devs having to sway the core game one way or another.
@iainmore3961
5 ай бұрын
I consider FNV, Skyrim, Cyberpunk 2077 and FO4 for instance as Platforms now. They arent finished products in my view.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
CP2077 turned out ok after Phantom Liberty. But I've heard its much better with mods.
@iainmore3961
5 ай бұрын
@@ParadoxGamingNetworkThere are maybe a dozen games in the last 20 years that have been significantly improved by Modding. Thank God that the Publishers/Devs had the foresight to make the Modding tools needed.
@blackphoenixfamily8477
5 ай бұрын
@2:38 "If a game HAS to be that modded" I am gonna stop you right there.....WTF do you mean!? Yes there are mods that change gameplay that the modder has done because they feel the devs should have released the game in such a way, but for the most part modding games is about longevity and replay value through that dedicated community. Is any game that isn't moddable that has planned DLC and content releases planned per the developer a finished product?! I think you are asking the wrong question(s). To me it is obvious that Bethesda embracing the modding community and providing the tools (eventually) that they realize the longevity those communities bring to their titles. This in no way means that when they release a title do they or any studio ever consider said title as a platform for modding and not a finished product, whether it is or isn't actually finished. BTW there were mods for Cyberpunk available day one, and they progressed pretty fast way before there were any tools released by CDPR. I think the question to be asked is "Should more studios embrace the modding of their titles?" I have 45 games installed ATM, and of those prolly half to 2/3rds are all modded, some of the mods are mine, but most are from Nexus, and the only ones that are through Steam is because that was the only option. I do not like the workshop for the simple reason it is proprietary and as a result you can't cross platform (as in where you bought the game EPIC, Steam, GOG) play the same titles with mods with friends if they got it on EPIC, so on....
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
So, on the second part, yes I know. That's why I said, I think if mods had been available for CP2077 on day 1, the game may have moved along a little better. I absolutely do agree with you on the fact that the Steam Workshop isn't the best solution. I know for CK3 players if they have the game through Steam, they have to mod through Steam. If they have it standalone, they have to get the mod from Paradox Plaza. What I meant by "If a game has to be modded" is when games are basically so unplayable in their release state, that without the mods there is no enjoyment. Personally, I didn't mind Starfield for what it was, but when I was streaming it people were getting frustrated for me on Shipbuilding and they were saying "there is a mod that makes this so much better" I know many people who got Starfield and said they were putting it down until it was either fixed by Bethesda Game Studios or fixed by the modding community.
@blackphoenixfamily8477
5 ай бұрын
@@ParadoxGamingNetwork Do you mean modding tools released by CDPR? Because, again there were mods available for CP 2077 day one, and the tools the community made only got better, way before CDPR released RED mod. As well, the team behind Wolvenkit got hired by CDPR and had a hand in RED mod. Starfield is a good Bethesda game, out of the box. I didn't mod it until I played it through once, I usually don't mod a title until I have done a vanilla playthrough. In my opinion a majority of the gaming community don't know how to read between the lines when it comes to hype and promotion. People don't know how to set their expectations and consistently set themselves up to be pissed off, in the least. So, what did those people mean 'fixed' when it comes to Starfield!? Seriously, because Starfield was arguably Bethesda's least buggy release in their history.
@ParadoxGamingNetwork
5 ай бұрын
I was not aware that CP2077 had mods available or that CDPR supported mods before RED Mod. Thank you for that. I do agree with you about gamers setting their expectations and setting themselves up to be pissed off. Sadly, I think gamers also have failed to realize they can control the situation by voting with their wallets.
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