This book was specifically outlawed by my mission president because of how it impacted missionaries, burdening them with shame and guilt. I think that was wise.
@ChristopherSalisburySalz
3 жыл бұрын
I found myself reading the Miracle of Forgiveness and wondering when we were going to get to the forgiveness part of the book!! 😂
@kathrynclass2915
3 жыл бұрын
I was taught as a YW by my YW leaders... I remember the lesson very distinctly because of how it made me feel... that if I were to be abducted and the person was going to rape me, that I should beg for him to take my life, to kill me, before the rape so I could stand clean and worthy before the judgement bar of god. It was horrendous, but I was young and committed to myself that that’s what I was going to do if that ever happened to me. Horrible abomination teaching. Luckily when I was sexually assaulted as a young adult in a date, I didn’t make the connection to the previous teaching because the circumstances were different than abduction and it had been many many years since I had been given that lesson. In that situation I was just angry that this guy had overpowered me and felt like something had gone wrong. I was so sexually naive that I didn’t recognize what had happened as a sexual assault. That knowledge came years later when I understood sex. In that moment though, my body felt the feelings of being assaulted, but my brain couldn’t make sense of it. I didn’t understand. (That’s a whole other conversation) I did go to my Bishop about it just to check out my worthiness status because what had gone wrong had happened while we were making out lying down. He made sure I was ok. Told me the guy was in the wrong and he would talk to him. I could tell my Bishop was super angry at the guy not me. I feel lucky that I somehow didn’t make the connection to the previous teaching of me sharing on the blame and having to repent of being assaulted. I’m shaking my head. It’s just unfathomable that my YW leaders read that and taught it to me. Ugh. (For reference I was born in 1969, so my YW years were 1981-1987)
@dianethulin1700
3 жыл бұрын
My friend was kidnapped on the way to General Conference in 1979 by a serial killer when she was at BYU. She said a prayer and bailed from a moving car in the fast lane, thinking that it would be better to die but be "pure" rather than lose virginity. She was so lucky to survive and testify against this man who had murdered a few other women. Part of the dynamic that happened was that she trusted this guy because he presented as Mormon and she was trying to help him. This book perpetuates this mentality as well as the misplaced trust
@RoughStoneRollingLapidary
Ай бұрын
Who was the serial killer?
@joshuaparker22
14 күн бұрын
@@RoughStoneRollingLapidaryI’m guessing Ted Bundy
@hollygeertsen4067
3 жыл бұрын
I read this book as a teenager believing from the title that I would find peace from forgiveness. Instead I developed extreme anxiety that I would never be able to make it back to my father in heaven. A bishop spoke in a class I was in about purity and really focused on not allowing ourselves to be raped,reading passages form this book. I had night mares of being raped and not dying. I would title the book: The un miracle of guilt and shame.
@BG-ig6fd
Жыл бұрын
“Not allowing ourselves to be raped”? Wow, as if most girls and women (or male victims of SA) have control over this. Why not tell boys and men NOT to rape? Put the blame where it belongs.
@johnsaxton5281
3 жыл бұрын
Don’t ban it, PUBLICIZE it for all the world to to see. The Author said it would be be better if such a Man (a Gay one) were never born.
@boneperfection
Жыл бұрын
As someone who didn't grow up with religion, I don't think one video has ever made my jaw literally drop so many times as this one has!
@bryceburgart8544
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for calling out this book. In 2011 I was reading it and was disgusted by what it taught about masturbation, homosexuality, and ‘sexual purity’. I remember discussing some of my thoughts of how horrified I was by its contents to my wife. We were TBM at the time, and I reconciled myself to the contents by telling myself Kimball was only an apostle at the time that he wrote it and therefore subject to the opinions of the time. It was one small item on the shelf that led me out of the church.
@andrewross901
3 жыл бұрын
After having premarital sex at 17 I was told I could no longer take the sacrament, say prayers at church or bear my testimony in anyway at church. I was then told to read this book and once I read it I could be forgiven and potentially go on a mission. This is in 2005. I felt like a horrible, terrible person because of the way I was, essentially, outcast from the religion, and I was living in Tennessee where the members were a very close, tight knit group, and yet still required to attend church. I cannot tell you how many times I was asked to pray on Sunday school and I had to say, “no, I can’t, sorry.” I felt like I was in The Scarlet Letter and I was walking around with a big red “A” on my forehead and I knew people were judging me, wondering what I could have possibly done to deserve this type of punishment. I put off reading that book for year, and only started reading it so I could rejoin everyone at church with praying etc. I was motivated by guilt, and that’s never a good thing. Once I read it I felt like an even worse person. I absolutely hated that book. I already felt like I was worthless in the church, and as a member of society for that matter, and this book was like pouring salt in an open wound. I endured it, and eventually was motivated to go on a mission by a pretty girl I was dating at the time. I never felt like I was a good missionary because of this book. To make things worse, I was know preaching about these harmful things and guilt tripping people living with their significant other, and break the law of chastity. I was a complete hypocrite and I just ignored that feeling, and served an “honorable mission”. I hate that term, because there was nothing honorable about these teachings of guilt and shame, let alone coming from a hypocritical 20 year old boy. I support you in having this book removed from all the shelf’s. I can speak from experience in saying that it does MORE harm than good and should not be promoted in any way. Sorry for the rant. I have so much more to say, but that’s good for now, I guess.
@ThunderTaker1215
3 жыл бұрын
❤️
@Abenn944
3 жыл бұрын
This book was given to me by a bishop when I was only about 15; told to read it as part of my repentance process & I had to report on it to him each week as the chapters went on. I’m sure I was supposed to remember the “miracle” it offered but what stayed with me & became a many years-long battle was the idea that in God’s eyes, I was a sinner “next to a murderer” for engaging in pre-marital sex. Done deal. Damaged goods. “A licked cupcake”, lol. I knew then I would NEVER have or allow my future children to read it. 37 now & I’ve never had it in my house. Oddly enough, John recorded this on my birthday - cool gift!! 🎁! Thanks John!
@dianethulin1700
3 жыл бұрын
The licked cupcake always cracks me up. I had a close friend for years who came out as bi to me. She used to call me a cute cupcake and we would go to the gay bars sometimes. I'm sorry but being a licked cupcake kind sounds good, LOL!
@ThunderTaker1215
3 жыл бұрын
You are not a licked cupcake, nor are you a chewed up piece of gum❤️
@roshi2130
3 жыл бұрын
I was born in the 80’s and grew up seeing this book displayed prominently on the book shelf in my home. I never read it myself but now I understand these teachings came from this book. The bishop recommended it to my mom after my step dad sexually abused me. There was so much shame and guilt and confusion surrounding my sexuality well into adulthood. This book absolutely needs to be removed from stores and homes!
@dianethulin1700
3 жыл бұрын
The bishop recommended it? I am sorry to hear that!
@DMRJ53
3 жыл бұрын
I had seven siblings and I spent many hours trying to figure out which sibling it was given to😂
@AmiraMajdali
3 жыл бұрын
The anti-homosexuality section was assigned to me by my bishop as part of my repentance process, & caused me to abandon myself & deny my sexual orientation for 11 years, from age 21 to 32. On top of that, it caused me to fear that I might become a pedophile or practice beastiality because the book connects those things as part of the same "slippery slope" & I kept crushing on girls against my best efforts. So, I became distrustful of myself around children and animals. I'm almost 39 & still working out the trauma just 1chapter of this book caused me.
@johnconcerto8721
3 жыл бұрын
That’s awful. I hope you’re okay.
@carolynaitken7632
3 жыл бұрын
Sounds like you’re suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder it’s usually caused by early trauma it can take the form of being afraid you might hurt yourself or someone else it’s quite a horrible frightening disorder.
@AmiraMajdali
3 жыл бұрын
@@carolynaitken7632... no, after realizing where I picked up the thought I have been able to release the concept because of realizing none of that info was accurate.
@KitKat-gw4rh
3 жыл бұрын
Sending love 💕
@jzwillows
2 жыл бұрын
The Church teaches that as long as you don't act on your desires you will stay clean.
@bobbyboywonder12
3 жыл бұрын
One of religions greatest holds on its believers is to first convince people they’re sick and then sell them the cure...and “sell” is quite literally true in Mormonism.
@Moonfasination
2 жыл бұрын
I got pregnant in high school and placed the baby for adoption. My Mom gave me this book, and recommended I read it. I can't forget the sick feeling I had in my stomach when I opened it, so I put it down and never did read it. I'm glad I didn't. Seriously this stuff is so sick and to think that we DESERVE to be talked to in such a grievous way is so wrong and the opposite of how a loving father feels about his children.
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
Lindsey: x10000! Thank you for sharing. WE ARE SO MESSED UP BY THIS SEX S********. "The (MOSAIC) Law" is all about SEX. Numbers ch. 5, non-jst, is absolutely horrific against women. Horrific. And you can see EXACTLY what Jesus was doing - specifically with - & for women in the gospel of Mark 5; John 8, etc. OOOOOOHHHH
@Karinna_AF
3 жыл бұрын
I almost committed suicide because of this book.
@KitKat-gw4rh
3 жыл бұрын
Sending love 💕
@faithchukwuka5436
5 ай бұрын
The same for me. After reading it I've made multiple attempts
@cindyg8638
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for remaking this video. I really appreciate that you where able to recognize that the last one was not the tone you wanted to portray and where willing to correct yourself. We need more people willing to do this!
@parrotlover9035
3 жыл бұрын
This book was extremely damaging to me as a teenager & young adult. For years, it fed my already low self-esteem. All because it was on the shelf at home. I can't believe it is still being sold.
@janicewinsor4793
3 жыл бұрын
The point of the book was to kill yourself esteem, people without self-esteem are much easier to control.
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
parrot:. Sooo sorry for your experience. "Virgin" until married @ 21, but unable to sustain marriage or any reasonable relationship whole life. Alone @ 75 & still wondering "wtf"???? We weren't BORN IDIOTS; we ("loners") were created idiots BY money-mongering R.E.L.I.G.I.O.N. GRIEF is my life.
@ChristopherSalisburySalz
3 жыл бұрын
I was asked to read Miracle of Forgiveness when I came back to church after years of being inactive. I think they had people read it to help draw out the shame and guilt so they could repent. I read it cover to cover and took notes and highlighted sections and stuff. A few of the things that shocked me about: 1 - That it is far better to die than to lose one's "virtue." I just couldn't believe this! I completely disagreed, as most sane and compassionate people would. Also, this demonstrates a total lack of faith in the atonement. 2 - Masturbation leads to being gay and that leads to bestiality. Completely ridiculous. I'm surprised he didn't throw in that it will make you blind! By that logic, wouldn't sexual activity between husband and wife lead to being gay and bestiality? The logic was so bad that it made me question SWK's intelligence and sanity. 3 - The callous attitude toward people that commit suicide. It was clear that SWK had never struggled with any mental health issues himself. People that kill themselves are in a state of despair that he clearly knows nothing about. 4 - In the book, he talks about how he sees women out in public wearing pants and shorts and how it's so inappropriate. 5 - Cain is bigfoot. Really? This book is basically the rantings of a superstitious and homophobic old man. I don't want to see it destroyed though because it is a testament to the absurdity of the Mormon faith.
@mikeoyler2983
Жыл бұрын
It represents an increadibally old world view. He is saying things and perpetuating belief systems that were around even before he was born. I seriously doubt that ever read anything written by Freud or Jung, contempories of his generation, regarding sexuality or acts of sex. I agree with your last statement. It is a testiment of what the Church really teaches and believes.
@dannylarsen4290
3 жыл бұрын
I just visited Deseret and Seagull in Layton Utah. The book hasn't been in stock for 6 years. Still available on Amazon and audio book.
@quacks2much
3 жыл бұрын
I remember when the book first came out and it was all the rage. I just thought, “yeah it’s good to forgive and forgiving people can be a miracle, what more do I need to know?” and I never read it.
@janicewinsor4793
3 жыл бұрын
Thankfully I never read it either but I sure heard about what was in it.
@dianethulin1700
3 жыл бұрын
Yes the name is a misnomer
@jackielarson444
3 жыл бұрын
Has the church ever apologized for anything?
@kaijusushi8165
3 жыл бұрын
they gave a 'sort of' apology for the mountain meadows massacre . . .
@benjamingardea4511
3 жыл бұрын
Acknowledging mistakes and seeking to rectify them? What a novel idea! I know a group who might want to follow your example. Well done sir!
@salsusmagnsu
3 жыл бұрын
John, What an awesome intro. It takes a lot of courage and moral grounding to say you made a mistake and then move forward. (Imagine if the church could do this.) Also, this book is a pariah and a plague, it stands as a testimony to the toxicity of the Mormonism I grew up in!
@jamierayadams
3 жыл бұрын
I also do NOT, in general, support the burning of books. However, I will admit that after an extended period of suicidal thoughts, caused by the shame and guilt I had associated with this book, I did use it as a fire starter on a camping trip. There was something very cathartic about burning something that had brought me so much pain. This book was NOT inspired! The vast majority of the text, in my opinion, is in contradiction with the core concepts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
@jnicholes79
3 жыл бұрын
For 39 years of my life, I lived with continuous fear and trauma as a result of the Church's policy and leadership/membership's teaching from the ideas established in this book. My life was an endless cycle of fear and trauma, rooted in the idea that my personal behavior and decisions somehow made me "less than" and even worse, deserving of retribution from Heavenly Father. I attributed any hardship in life as failure of my abilities to the ideals that Kimball and others espoused, as someone who speaks directly for God. The damage caused by these ideas expands even further, as I experienced the direct judgement and condemnation, real and perceived, from others who took Kimball's teachings as direct teaching from God. I too would judge others as unworthy, evil or less than, based on behaviors and instructions from others. John captured it so succinctly when he points out that (paraphrasing) "... the Church creates the illness, and then prescribes the remedy." I couldn't agree more. In all of these areas, the Church creates problems where none objectively exist. The solutions/outcomes they outline, in all cases, lead to harmful and dangerous results. Even more troubling is the distancing the modern Church does from past Church leaders. Today's Prophet is tomorrow's "man of their time" ... the Church, and its membership, has already established this pattern. And in that desire to sweep controversy in the dust-bin of history, they intentionally fail to acknowledge the harm that has been done, and the harm that continues to haunt the individuals and families for decades, or even centuries to come. I would highlight for listeners that the very cannon the Church holds too is filled with the foundational scripture that all of these ideas are formed on. This book, alongside so many others on their shelves, are all filled with hate, misogyny, bigotry, and all forms of unspeakable horrors. Yes, we can claim success when one is removed, but we need them all removed. Until then, we need to help others develop the skill to identify bad ideas, so they can find objective truth and good. Any organization that creates harm, real or perceived, is in no way inherently "good." Side note: This book was required reading as a full-time missionary in 1998-2000. It was also encouraged in 1997 to read this book as part of the CES Missionary Preparation course curriculum. I believe that recommendation remains in the current manual published today. Thank you to John for re-producing this episode to frame the call-to-action in a positive, kind and constructive manner.
@KitKat-gw4rh
3 жыл бұрын
I had a similar experience. Sending love 💕
@jacquelinecarrico5659
3 жыл бұрын
Quite possibly, instead of having it removed (putting to rest the Nazi book burning reference) the clergy of the church SHOULD NOT treat it like scripture. I applaud you for your efforts to shed light on this damaging book. This book has destroyed so many lives, including my own. After reading it as a teenager in the late eighties, I never recovered from the guilt. Guilt that was already driven into me. "The Miracle of Forgiveness" was the nail in the coffin of my self-esteem. Keep up the good work.
@wagnerthesilva
Жыл бұрын
I remember in my Mission that this book was prohibited to be read by missionaries. Heard stories of missionaries that left the Mission after starting to read it and people devastated for it. I was always afraid of it, until one day I decided to read as a Bishop as I had been instructed to recommend this book to members who had chastity related issues. So I wanted to know what’s in it before recommending it. Truly this book is not for everyone to read because it can do more damage than help. Even if you’re the perfect person, still it puts you on the edge to reconsider if you are really that perfect one and whether you’ll ever reach this perfection, or just forget about it because you’ll never be like that and so, you’re damned anyway which may bring to tragedy to one’s own life. That’s how I felt about the effect of this book on others who are struggling already.
@kaijusushi8165
3 жыл бұрын
This book was everywhere in the 1980's when I was growing up in the church. It was practically scripture - to the extent that every one of my bishops and stake presidents had one on his desk for use in counseling (aka shaming) the members who came in for interviews. It was required reading for missionaries in my mission, and it was the official textbook for the 'missionary preparation' course at the church's universities. As member of my student ward bishopric I remember seeing my bishop handing out this book out to students who were going through church discipline. I was required to read it multiple times as a missionary, student, etc.
@nateman3365
Жыл бұрын
It’s 2023 I just check DB can’t find “The Miracle of Forgiveness” great work John!
@rhonda-maenelson9826
3 жыл бұрын
"The Miracle of Forgiveness" - the title implies that a miracle is what it takes to forgive such "atrocities". I used to like the title 25 yrs ago, until I opened the book. I'll write to remove this book that was born out of oppression. And I'd love to attend the after-party. ;)
@brettbair2654
3 жыл бұрын
This book was written by a Prophet of God. Not sure they will make a public statement. They will quietly, slowly quit talking about it. Like other teachings that had been preached and now they pretend were never mentioned. Kind of like when my wife was a Lamanite and now she isn't. I read this book as a teenager in the 70s as a preparation for my mission. It is a very harmful destructive book. Oh, even though she is no longer a Laminite, she still has nice dark skin. Is God a hypocrite or is it all fiction?
@natalie9527
3 жыл бұрын
I remember when I was in my Laurel classes in YW, and one year our teacher gifted my entire class of 10-12 young women their own copies of this book, and told us how incredible it was. We were told to read and ponder it even if we had never committed a serious sin in our life, because it was just that good and important of a book.
@musashi2392
3 жыл бұрын
And... did you read the book then??? I think you didn't because if you had done so, you'd know that it says that everyone needs daily repentance for committed sins and sins of omission. So, it's NOT only ment to sexual or serious sins but for all kinds of sins. People have this wrong idea when they connect the book with only serious sins. So, no big deal if a Laurel is asked to read it.
@KitKat-gw4rh
3 жыл бұрын
@@musashi2392 Are you a Laurel?
@musashi2392
3 жыл бұрын
@@KitKat-gw4rh No, I'm not.
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
Natalie:. Bet your Laurel teacher had to buy with her own money, too!! Like those who had to bom(b)s church did not want to hand out, but too cheap to bear "loss" AND wanted members to turn around & hand out!!!! Insane!
@lawrencebilello8393
3 жыл бұрын
I actually as a senior at an opus dei high school heard an opus dei priest give a talk based on the deseret book's talking points, certainly caused a lot of anxiety!
@lc5666
2 жыл бұрын
Did you hear a bunch of Christopher West also, or was that child's play compared to what you were learning? (Former Catholic)
@dakotawebb8701
3 жыл бұрын
I've never read this book but I've heard a quoted a million times growing up. I actually just looked through my scriptures I had in high school and found glue in print outs from seminary with quotes from this book.
@16jcstratton
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for closed captioning! I have been waiting in few days to appear captioning. Thank god I haven’t read miracle of forgiveness. My parents did give me when I was younger but I haven’t read for years. Thank you for your encouragement for all members to remove it. I left church last summer. Thanks again for your strong!
@shches8480
3 жыл бұрын
This book was given to me by a Mormon missionary to read when I told him I was fine with being gay. The missionary later confessed to me that he was bi and claimed this book helped him overcome some of his "problematic" sexual desires. I read a few pages and decided not to read any more. Worst book I ever read. I can't help but wonder what lasting damage this book did to the missionary who introduced me to it.
@JoseLopez-uc2hn
3 жыл бұрын
Good thing I never read that damn book. I was told that it destroys you, so I skipped it.
@lorincapson7720
3 жыл бұрын
Glad you decided to re-do the episode. Yes, it was an extreme rant. I tuned out. Yelling only masks the issue, doesn't really bring intelligent attention to the subject. I agree, this book is harmful and a reflection of uninspired ideology.
@DS-ed8vs
3 жыл бұрын
Not only is it still sold, it is THE advice given to anyone who comes to the bishop to repent. Not only in the 70's, in the 2010's. I have been given it in different states, at different ages, from different bishops. These untrained men, who are the only go-to for members wishing to repent, hand out THAT BOOK and base everything else around it. "Read this" is step 1, part of actual repenting. (Step 2 starts with "Did you read it? You need to read it.")
@ChristopherSalisburySalz
3 жыл бұрын
I appreciate your professional and objective analysis of these topics. It's always very clear that you care about these things on a personal level but you always try to be respectful of the Mormon faith and those that still believe in it. I've never seen you mock the church or take cheap shots at the church. You maintain a high standard of integrity. I appreciate what you do and how you do it! The funny thing is I find myself thinking "John would have made a great bishop or stake president" 😂
@JasmineTheJollyNeurotic
3 жыл бұрын
Oh my gosh. The personal triggers at 25:29. I've been made to feel insane when I talk about the church in these terms - but here it all is, in this book.
@janicewinsor4793
3 жыл бұрын
Church is good at making anybody who disagree with them feelings saying.
@markjack631
3 жыл бұрын
as a victim of abuse as a child. I could never bring myself to read this book John. know I now why. thank you John.
@NadineMMedia
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this, John!! Spencer W Kimball was the "prophet" when I was at BYU. And my Bishop told me I was abusing myself if I masturbated. It was "self-abuse". And that did a lot of damage. And I have been impacted by suicide too. Kimball's comments on it are so judgmental, and morally bankrupt that they took my breath away. I left the church when a gay couple's love proved to me just how very wrong the church was. Leaving was so painful, it felt like a divorce. That was decades ago and thought I was over it. Then randomly, youou showed up in my feed and I started watching. I guess there's still a bit more healing to be done. After I left the Mormon Church, I debated going back to Christianity, but the patriarchal structures felt wrong. I found comfort in the New Age movement (a welcome relief from the men-only pulpits where we're told to pray to a male god). But I have struggled with the white entitlement and spiritual bypassing baked into it. And am working on de-colonizing my spirituality, and guiding others to do that. I work in social justice movements creating videos to help us all organize to win legislation that protects us all, because I believe that is the most powerful reflection of Christ's core teaching: "As ye have done to the least of my brethren, so ye have done onto me." And, although I don't think I'll be walking into a church again, I follow and am unbelievably inspired by Dr. Rev. William Barber II, whose KZitem Channel is Repairers of the Breach. With Rev Dr Liz Theoharis (yes, he shares the pulpit with a *gasp!* woman! and he's openly an LGBTQ ally). He established Moral Mondays which sought to take back "morality". He was featured in Bill Moyer's documentary, "State of Conflict: North Carolina". He spoke at the DNC convention 5 years ago, spoke twice at the huge USW conventions, worked with Jesse Jackson and has been on CNN and almost all major news stations, Time magazine, etc . He recently revived Dr. Martin Luther King's Poor People's Campaign, and talks about how now is the time for the merging of "the pulpit and the street". In other words social justice is Christ's love in action. Standing up for the rights of the oppressed, changing the system so none is left behind. To me, he is Christ-based spirituality rebalanced and healed. Anyway, I love my life and am so so grateful I left so long ago. And grateful to stumble upon your fabulous work. Work that has healed that little bruised corner of my heart I wasn't even aware was still there.
@robertwojnar5166
3 жыл бұрын
True story. Here in Pittsburgh area about 5 years ago there was a father son outing. The entire Priesthood meeting topic was a returned missionary talking bout masterbation issues that people had on their missions and what was being viewed on devices. Once over all the adults and boys retired to their campsites. Most of the kids having smartphones. 🤔 Yeah. Wonder what was going thru their young minds.
@Metroid-rg9pn
3 жыл бұрын
President Kimball obviously had some wrong ideas about depression, but to be fair, this book is a big part about why I *didn't* kill myself in high school. So the pendulum swings both ways.
@lakalajadizaja4332
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting
@Metroid-rg9pn
3 жыл бұрын
@@lakalajadizaja4332 Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people don't understand how that's possible, but it was because of self-preservation. I wanted the celestial kingdom, and was terrified of the telestial kingdom for eternity. So I stuck it out until I got medication that got rid of my depression. I understand not everyone is the same, but fear works much better for me than love does. The harshest scriptures motivate me more than the loving ones do. So I'm a firm believer that some people need books like "The Miracle of Forgiveness" while others don't.
@lakalajadizaja4332
3 жыл бұрын
@@Metroid-rg9pn Thank you for your answer. You make an interesting point.
@lorinaquigleymysticalexmormon
Ай бұрын
I just bought this book and I have to say that I’m glad that I did. That might seem controversial.(I bought a used copy because I really don’t want to support the Mormon church.) I want to understand my parents better and understand how deeply fanatical their beliefs were. I was raped when I was 15 and my parents tried to make me marry the guy who raped me. They thought that was a really good solution to the problem. I refused to marry this guy! He was a rapist! I became pregnant through this rape. So they sent me away to hide me. I was forced to give my baby up for adoption. everything was facilitated by Mormon church and the bishop. so anyway, it just helps me see everything more clearly about my dad‘s Attitude towards this whole thing. It is absolute insanity to believe these things and very sad that this brainwashing around these things are promoted. and believed. Kimball’s beliefs are very sad, tragic and hateful and to use such a huge influence in such a hateful way is just astounding.
@ZeBeFruity
3 жыл бұрын
I appreciated your intent yesterday. All your LGBT support is so healing to me from all the homophobic violence by my LDS family 40 years ago. Of course I still love my family and forgive them although there was never apology. Their rhetoric no doubt was from this book. . . and you know what they say about homophobes.
@leilaniplummer4895
3 жыл бұрын
My institute teacher said he and another author are currently writing a book that is appropriate to our day and this younger generation on this topic as he stated Miracle of Forgiveness is outdated.
@srso4660
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah- it definitely didn't age well
@mylesmarkson1686
3 жыл бұрын
@@srso4660 It didn't come out of the chute well either!
@csbl63able
3 жыл бұрын
I left the church in 1990. Best choice I ever made.
@patrickkeleher7190
3 жыл бұрын
When I was 19 I joined the LDS Church. I was encouraged to read The Miracle of Forgiveness". When I read Chapter 5 "The Sin Next to Murder" my heart dropped. I was devastated that I was guilty of the sins that are considered to be next to murder.. Shortly after graduating from the University of Kansas, I went on a mission hoping that would surely cure me of this horrible desire. Well I found out while serving my mission in Japan, that I was not the only elder with these "offensive desires". Several years later I had a marvelous experience that helped me to realize that the creator is fine with who I am and that it is okay to be gay. Over the years while working in California helping to improve the state's programs for children and youth with mental health issues, I read that Utah has a very high rate per capita of youth suicide. Hopefully that has changed of late, but I cannot help but think how detrimental and cruel the Church's teaching regarding LGBTQ youth and may have led emotional and mental abuse that have led youth to suicide. Thanks for your bravery in bringing this horrible Book and resulting dogma to light. Keep up the great work. Feel free to contact me if you wish to talk about my "Walk through Mormonism" and the incredibly wonderous experience that freed me from the Mormon Church's teachings and dogma.
@jacobopstad5483
3 жыл бұрын
I remember hearing about it a lot and got the impression that it was something that I did not want to put myself through. I'm so glad that I listened to my intuition in this case!
@DMRJ53
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for helping me make my decision . You are so respectful with your work.
@spencerknibbe2910
3 жыл бұрын
A returned missionary left a copy of this book in my apartment after a long weekend of drinking and cavorting in NYC (ironic). Of course, he wrote his testimony on the inside cover. I read all of two paragraphs and tossed it...
@zlowhoggy9154
3 жыл бұрын
what a ule
@garikj766
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you John for the re-recording, the more perspective view, and mentioning the view and the church's teaching on suicide. I am aware this is a public posting and it isn't my intention to stoke the flames. What concerns me a lot is the church's stance on suicide has become an, even more, an ignorant concept. If you ask any devote member the position on suicide. They'' give you the GMA as, 'A selfish decision. Anyone who agrees to make that decision based on that selfishness is worthy of damnation'. To someone who is unstable and seeking attention, or see it as a sense of possession, I could say it is selfish. Other reasons I see this occurring is that the system or authoritative voice in the system becomes too big or too overbearing and pushes for their own direction under one singular eye. It gets messier when that one singular perspective expects things to be verbatim and loses the whole understanding of the human experience, to learning, to growing, to respecting an individual, to individuals learning in their own path, etc
@28Josereyes
2 жыл бұрын
The perfect book if you want to destroy your self-esteem.
@IronBitch-SapphireandIron
Жыл бұрын
These teachings,REALLY messed me up. Also If you leave the church...it felt like it was going to kill you because it is so bad. I had fear even admitting outloud, that Iam aethist would upset my family so bad...people would be horrifed. I finally only recently told missionaries at my door to not come to my house...that Iam now aethist. I'm ALMOST 55 yrs old for heaven sakes! I still never tell my siblings. It was so hard to evenget the words out to my step bro...who doesn't really talk to my siblings. I felt like I was admitting to a horrible sin. My family is staunch LDS, & has been judgemental for most(maybe all of my life) My Mom's eulogy, was pretty hurtful about me...still haven't totally worked thru it. She died ashamed of me. That's been my life...being the shame of my family. I even married a man because I thought it would make my Mom happy before she died...NOPE. Now I see how screwedup my thinking was. The man was abusive, I didn't love him...but he wouldn't leave my household, EVEN WHEN I MOVED! Sounds crazy, but it's true. I was in fear of me & my kids life...I just needed someone to give me a safe out. Instead my family was just ashamed of me. Eventually a cuz. Finally gave me an out...a safe out, where it was someone else, the reason I need to get him out...hence it wasn't me & hence he won't kill or hurt me , or my kids. My bro still says about my moms shame of me...well YOUR WERE MAKING BAD CHOICES! I tried to explain to him...total waste of time, because he still stood by the judgement of me.
@noshrinkingviolet007
3 жыл бұрын
This vid is long overdue. I look back when I was a TBM and read this book periodically and it was so dark. I am a straight female but the most prominent message of that book I recall from YEARS ago is a passage on homosexuality. At the very least, the LDS church should stop be promoting this book and encouraging it as part of the repentance process.
@82566
Жыл бұрын
My Dad had this book ,i remember seeing this on the bookshelf .interesting discussion thank you
@lauriewilliams3402
Жыл бұрын
I am watching this in 2023. I had this book as a teenager. I found the treatise on masturbation and homosexuality to be icky! I never masturbated as a child or teen, and I still turned out to be bisexual. The signs of same sex attraction were evident when I was quite young. I got rid of this book. I am at peace with being bi, and am happy with my same sex girlfriend.
@AlejandroMartinez-fr6hj
Жыл бұрын
That book should be called "Spiritual trauma for dummies"😂😂😂😂😂
@StephRivera
3 жыл бұрын
I love the way you explained it. They make it "off limits". (Yet they know 80% will do it anyway). Psychology tells us that makes you do it more. Feeling guilty after leads you to rely on the church's "fix". If you do it again (and you will) you will have an "all or nothing" thought pattern and feel like you have lost your worth. The psychology we know now does not align with these teachings.
@FknNefFy
Жыл бұрын
Out of Mormonism and into THRIVE 🤦🏼♀️man oh man
@Cocoon68
Жыл бұрын
As bad as the blood atonement taught by Brigham Young.. it’s wrong and needs to go bye bye
@jeremysheiner
3 жыл бұрын
Today is July 6, 2021. It's been 169 days since this video was recorded. The book is still available as an e-book on Deseret Book's website. Clearly, they have no intention of removing this book from their site, despite the immense harm it does. Shameful.
@robertthompson9455
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the new post on MOF. I understand you are liberal and a progressive and that's good we need liberals and conservatives to balance society. To keep it from going side ways on us....
@cantsay
Жыл бұрын
Could you also ask the publisher to add a warning and context warning at the front of the book?
@LilyBHamilton900
3 жыл бұрын
Wasn't he an insurance salesman???? What did he know about psychology and mental health! These people need to stay in their own lane. Not helpful at all. I was encouraged to read this drivel years ago. Glad I ignored the advice. Oh, and I remember I'm YW, being told it was better to die than get raped. Even as a teenager, this seemed like an extreme choice. There was sooo much crap thrown around. It's a wonder any of us that grew up in the 70's as members of the SCC aren't more damaged than we are.
@hlnbee
11 ай бұрын
I threw my copy of the book in the garbage many years ago!
@borderterrierpoppyadventures
2 жыл бұрын
He said some really horrible things during his time.
@ClarkAboudaz
2 жыл бұрын
I thought this book was considered antimormon by most members
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
Conversion Therapy quote: bona fide BLASPHEMY. AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
@thuggie1
3 жыл бұрын
I dislike this book intensely purely a digusting book and I think the the church needs to apologise over their use of electric shock conversion theropy where they administered ipecac to induce vomiting at BYU
@BrandonMarkStout
Ай бұрын
It has always surprised me that so many people felt so traumatized by this. So many sins are named here that everyone is guilty of something. To me the primary message was forgiveness, which you have to read through it all to get to, but to me, the overall message was doing what you can to better self, but since it's impossible to be perfect, which this book makes clear, we all need the Savior. Many of your points are valid and make sense. I'm also a long time mental health professional. I don't think everything you said is completely true, and some claims feel exaggerated to me, and some quotes feel out of context to me, but your main points are good. Although the message I got from this book was overall good, I can see how some have seen it as hurtful. I do disagree with you on just a couple things. I didn't think you can say what is or isn't a sin. Whether something is common or not doesn't dictate whether it is a sin. A doctorate degree and a lifetime of mental health research doesn't licence you to declare what is or is not sin. Sure, every person is precious, and shaming is not effective, but I don't think you can say it's perfectly fine to do whatever you want sexually and be free of sin. There's one Judge, and He decides what is sin and what is pure. That's where I disagree. Although I liked this book and I'm sad in some ways to see it unavailable now, this has shown me some good reasoning behind it.
@scottkandee3517
Жыл бұрын
Deseret Book stop publishing or selling "The Miracle of Forgiveness" 2015. Here is a quote from "To The Rescue" by Heidi Swinton published in 2010, a biography of President Monson. "For several summers, President Kimball had worked on writing a book titled "The Miracle of Forgiveness". 'As on reads the book,' Elder Monson later observed, 'particularly the first portion, one wonders if anyone will make it to the celestial kingdom'. One day President Kimball, then President of the Quorum of the Twelve, entered Elder Monson's office and said 'I don't know if I should have printed the book or not. I have people coming to confess mistakes which they made long years ago. Could you help me talk to some of them?' Elder Monson agreed to help, to which President Kimball responded, 'I'll send several people in to see you.' When Elder Monson asked, 'What would you like me to tell them?'. President Kimball answered simply, 'Forgive them, brother; forgive them'. I would also like to add that Mormon Doctrine has not been published or sold in Deseret Book since 2010. I owned an independent LDS Bookstore and was thrilled when both of these books were taken off the shelves. As a believer I continue to find some of John's complaints old news. The Church has progressed in many ways and I expect it will continue to grow & change.
@nativepower1665
3 жыл бұрын
I heard somewhere the word "Fool" is a cuss word in the Bible.
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
6.29.2023 Dear Dr.John Dehlin: Just finished watching your podcast with John Larsen about "two books." (Rex Lee) Sometimes, HOLY RANTING is both warranted & holy. I am SO THANKFUL for your "humble audacity" in persisting in these essential expositions & lending your voice, resources, & platform to the researchers & the experiences of your guests. Therefore, I am willing to ENDURE the stuff of this book [miracle of furrgiveness]. MAKE YOUR CASE, HOLY WARRIOR!!! MAKE 🌺 YOUR 🌺CASE!! 🌺🌺🌈🌺🌺. This txt was to thank you particularly for the "two books" podcast. 😹😹
@danhamon8696
9 ай бұрын
If you don't like it, don't read it, if you can't understand what good others get from it, don't tell them they can't read it, So many find fault in human production and vast others see God's hand in the work and are being blessed abundantly to walk more circumspectly before Christ,. Psychological balance is critical, so is Spiritual balance which is the only thing that will open the windows of heaven to that which is essential for our knowledge base.
@ETBlair
3 жыл бұрын
I want to hear the angry version.
@Mommadragon1976
3 жыл бұрын
Me too, lol
@eabcool
3 жыл бұрын
yeah they should get rid of that
@kempergreenk
Жыл бұрын
The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, written by Neil L Anderson, is now the only thing that shows up if you try to search for the Miracle of Forgiveness by Deseret Book. The Divine Gift of Forgiveness takes a much softer approach to repentance and says that "while you have made mistakes, these sins do not describe who you are." (Pg.68)
@hlnbee
11 ай бұрын
Mistakes is much nicer to say than sins. I was the church would use mistakes more often.
@kempergreenk
11 ай бұрын
@@hlnbeeI agree with you that, while we shouldn’t encourage sin, we also shouldn’t demonize people who make mistakes because literally everyone does. It’s usually the influence of Satan that makes us feel worthless after sinning. God gave us the Savior because He knew we would sin, and He wanted a way for us to come back to Him regardless. The church uses the word mistake more often today because the Brethren want to emphasize that our sins don’t define us. We are still beloved sons and daughters of God even after making mistakes.
@maxipower6932
3 жыл бұрын
This channel is most interesting because it clearly exposes the lies, deceit by design and illicit enrichment of the very few elite families at the very top of this organization. Reason why I support it. If my observation is not correct, then I have no understanding of the purpose of this channel. It confuses me when John calls any of the deceivers “beloved prophet,” “he has a special place in my heart,” etc. In religious context a prophet is a title given to someone respected, a medium of sorts between the gods and man. Similar to an Italian mafia father who commits atrocities and is still “beloved” by those of his next-of-kin. Just seconds before it was mentioned the book had led tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands to either, depression, suicide, and the negative consequences these mental conditions have in a human being. But yet, the author of the book is “beloved.” Come on now!! The fight is between good and evil, there is a source of all things that are good who is YAHWEH, the only Elohim, known as the Father, there is none else. His enemy is the devil whose work is to take souls to hell. One can look for ways to rationalize this fact, but in the end it is the truth, and the truth is all there is. Call the those who destroy souls for what they are, confusion will surely cause chaos in the ranks of those who want to know how to address one infallible fact, we will all meet our maker. I have read and discarded the book 25 years ago.
@mormonstories
3 жыл бұрын
I don’t see the world as black and white any more.
@NemoUtopian
3 жыл бұрын
I imagine some Mormons might have concerns about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. One alternative would be for the book to be reprinted with problematic passages excised and placed in another section in which a mental health expert discusses all the problems with them, and the flawed perspective informing them explained. That way history is not whitewashed either. Mind you not having read the book I am not sure if it has enough of merit to make such a project worthwhile.
@ChristopherSalisburySalz
3 жыл бұрын
You mentioned Jesus the Christ by Talmage. I really loved that book. I felt like I knew Christ after reading it. I really liked Talmage's style too. He had a kind of logical and factual style of writing that I found convincing and intriguing. I read that book fast.
@ozymandias6743
3 жыл бұрын
The worse the book the more important it stay in the collective conscious (and on the shelves). As the church attempts to smooth it's approach to "problematic" issues and rewrite history, we should preserve these relics, emblematic as they are of the misguided social policy "prophets" of God espoused without any reprisal.
@nancynurse
3 жыл бұрын
Love you John !!
@timisa58
3 жыл бұрын
Where are the parents? Where is the presence of god in the individual (believers) parents' lives? Why are so many incapable of discernment with the guidance of god? Yikes.
@kouverbingham5997
3 жыл бұрын
doesnt seem to be on the deseret book website...
@gracebe235
3 жыл бұрын
I just wish you would have transported the comments from others.....from the original video.....over to here. Some great comments were made on it.
@mormonstories
3 жыл бұрын
They’re all here! kzitem.info/news/bejne/mZuh3Hh9caBigG0
@mylesmarkson1686
3 жыл бұрын
@@mormonstories I just clicked on your link, and it says that Comments have been turned off. Did you do it or did KZitem?
@elainechester4756
Жыл бұрын
Amazon is still selling it. I just checked the website.😮
@rondavis3066
Жыл бұрын
The LDS church does more harm than good.
@josephzillo3751
3 жыл бұрын
I admire you, thank you. Maybe they need to write a replacement book?
@mattbrown2788
3 жыл бұрын
I read this book before I went on my mission. I did not realize the harm that it caused to me. I read it as a young, believing mormon, and took it as the word of god. It was a major contributor to me falling into the shame cycle, and it negatively affected my outlook on many issues for years after. I even recommended it to a friend that confided in me that she had been sexually assaulted 🤦♂️ I just checked, and this book is still available for sale on Deseret books and also on Amazon. Shameful, to say the least.
@mikesirman3148
Жыл бұрын
Damn dude, u recommended it to her... She prob thought she was partially guilty and unclean and washed up... That book... and you, good sir, ruined her life
@leoguarizo2
3 жыл бұрын
I had a sense that you were enjoying the last recording waaay too much, specially when advocating for the burning of the books.
@ashleyingoldsby
2 жыл бұрын
... so did you have a party and thank the church?
@sheliabryant3997
Жыл бұрын
So, John, what was outcome of your campaign to remove this book from Deseret's selling?
@polyglot6542
3 жыл бұрын
John. Again a great topic and much to be learned. I would appreciate if I can jave links to studies that discuss homosexuality as developed in the woman's womb and in the brain of the baby.
@themanflake
3 жыл бұрын
Saying that you're, "not advocating for book banning" while advocating for banning this book and taking it off the shelves doesn't work. If you are telling people to not read it or telling deseret to not sell the book, will make it more tempting. Instead, you should teach about it and give other information. I believe that taking the book down and telling people not to read it would be counterproductive. 🙂
@CastleArchon
7 ай бұрын
19:50 Do you attack Jesus' statement that "whoever so looketh at a woman and lust has already committed adultery in his heart"? We all know that is normal as well. But did Jesus still not call it a sin? Did he try to normalize it? Or did he still call people to repent? (and at least make an effort?) Or do you think his advice is harmful as well?
@kera9389
Жыл бұрын
2023, is it still being sold?
@lang1031
Жыл бұрын
No not only Prophets can here his voice. Our doctrine teaches that. And with you saying you never hear him (or receive answers which can come without hearing his voice) shows me more about who you are. I sadly therefore will not watch the rest of this. The way to grow faith is to study, pray, obey, and have a true desire. If so you will receive many upon many answers back. Seek and ye shall find knock and it will be opened unto you.
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