28:25 "we're just imposing modern categories on these ancient authors." Ok, I will agree absolutely with that statement but I might reframe it to something more useful. We are asking modern questions of an ancient text, and we still believe that the scriptures have some kind of application to these questions. The basic questions are: is the creative design for a marriage relationship to be that the husband is the ultimate decision-maker in a family? And, can a woman serve in the church as a pastor, preacher, elder, or whatever other titles a church might have for ministry roles? It is a perfectly valid question to ask, if a married couple is at an impasse in the decision making process for something, must the family default to the husband's choice? I don't think New Testament depicts that exact scenario, but it has something to say about it. So sure, the language of egalitarian or complementarian is modern, but the questions are nonetheless appropriate. And if we strip away the rhetoric and focus solely on identity and actions, it may make for a productive and less tribalistic conversation. But the questions will remain.
@Leadeshipcoach
Жыл бұрын
I think you have stated this quite well👍
@Bible33AD
Жыл бұрын
@Leadeshipcoach but the above questions are only asked coz the Pat/Comps don't see this thru God's eyes. GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE. Can a black person be a pastor? Sick question. OF COURSE YES! Can a slave be a pastor? Sick question. OF COURSE YES! Can a daughter of God be a pastor. Sick question. OF COURSE YES! GOD WOULD NOT DISCRIMINATE.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
@@Bible33AD Don't take this as disagreement but I would like to challenge your statement just because I don't think you have thought about how you got to that belief. Why is discrimination wrong? Specifically, lets start with the easy one. Why is racism wrong? And why do you think it is sick to ask such a question?
@cryptojihadi265
4 ай бұрын
Actually, the scripture is quite clear, from Genesis through the New Testament. The woman was CREATED to be man's HELPER. It's in her DESIGN! Whenever you try to use something it wasn't designed for, at best you get bad results, at worst you destroy the object, it's no different for people. God designed us a certainly way. None of His rules or commands are arbitrary, or just some test to see if we will be obedient, each and every command is for our good. Paul makes it clear that women are to submit to their husbands in ALL things. He even goes on to say, even those who are disobedient to the Word. Which of course blows away the ridiculous standard of women ONLY have to submit to their husband IF he is FULLY surrendered to the Lord or going after the Lord with ALL his heart. Two standards not one person has ever lived up to. Now, of course, it goes without saying that she can't submit to her husband if he asks her to do something illegal or immoral as we NEVER let anyone trump God's ultimate authority or commands. Families should NEVER be at an impasse. The husband should bring up whatever issue that needs to be dealt with or decision that needs to be made, get her opinion and counsel and then make a decision based on what he thinks is best for the family and what God's plan for them is. She has every right to give her opinion and preference, but absolutely no right to fight or argue for it. THIS is why there is so much strife in modern Christian marriages. Instead of churches teaching Godly order and structure, they accept the unholy order and then try to teach couples how to "fight fair"! Then wonder why the divorce rate in the church isn't any better than in the world.
@cord11ful
2 ай бұрын
@@cryptojihadi265 The same word that was translated as 'helper' in English, the original word was also used of God in the OT. Think on that.
@ThisisPam
Жыл бұрын
I think we struggle with this because we want to know who is in authority and who is responsible, but the real issue being discussed by Paul and others is character.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
Жыл бұрын
thsoe who are in authority do ntot take responsibility when wives are abused in patriarchal marriages. they are told to go back and be more submissive, when they have been submissive and obedient all along
@JoseEduardo1594-
Жыл бұрын
I feel like we need to let go of our biblical literalism. It’s one of the tenants of evangelicalism. But we are Christian’s not biblicans. The Bible speaks from its particular point of view, culture and time periods let’s keep in mind it was written 2000 years ago, and these writers were already progressing into something that was shocking to their society. So yes I believe in mutual submission, mutual respect, submission isn’t even a word we use in our language today to describe relationships. Yes Women and men function differently but both deserve the same respect, authority, kindness and standards.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
I think this appeal to progress your making would be a lot more convincing if our society wasn't falling apart.
@rgnold2517
5 ай бұрын
@@viperstriker4728you do realize men have been in charge since Adam, no wonder it's falling apart.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
Жыл бұрын
In my study of learning about mutuality vs. patriarchy/complementarianism and presenting my views and opinions, I have been called names that I am a Satanist feminist, finding things to tickle my ears, my salvation doubted, blinded by satan etc-a real show of true Christian love. When I state how Christian patriarchy with its many rules mostly aimed at women, has morphed into spanking “disobedient” wives and the stories of abused wives who did nothing but submit and obey are in the hundreds, I hear the same old argument that how they practiced a twisted from of patriarchy , not the correct way- My question is, if those who truly believe patriarchy/complementarianism is God’s will for the Christian life what are they doing to help these hurting women and show them Christian love and offer healing? Under patriarchy the only biblical answers seem to be go back to your husband and be more submissive and without speaking a word you will win him to Christ and how God hates divorce-both scriptural admonitions. Yet this advice rarely works--- Why? In fact, from what I have seen the only ones who are stepping up to the plate to offer help and resources to these abused wives are those who believe the bible teaches mutuality-sites such as bare marriage. I wonder how much time do pat/comp believers actually spend in correcting badly practiced patriarchy --- do any of them spend time going to the sites like biblical gender roles that teach spanking wives is biblical -do they spend time correcting them of their errors?
@susanbarackman-artist7670
Жыл бұрын
i need to clarify---it was not the egals calling me names--it was the pat believers
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
I think it is a bit disingenuous to criticize people for not doing enough for any cause. Complementarians don't believe in spanking wives, I have heard quite a few and all would be incredibility offended to be lumped in with those people. Just because in your personal experience you haven't seen much action doesn't actually relate to the discussion of which is Biblical. Abuse is actually one of the few things that justifies a divorce. So I found that comment to be disingenuous to the Complementarians as well.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
9 ай бұрын
not sure what you mean by disingenuous but helping solve the problem of abuse in the church caused by patriarchal teachings is something that needs to be seriously addressed of course, not all pat/comps are abusive towards women but the hierarchy structure remains as a way to keep women from realizing their full pottential of God's calling on their lives, whateverr direction that may be---and full calling does not mean tradtional roles of wife, mother, etc. --it means whatever God calls a women to be. but it is pat/comp heirarchal teachings that allow for abusive practices to come in---whatever rules the men feel keep the women in their place are the rules that group will follow, including spanking wives who disobey husbands---what punishment do men get for disobeying wives? under egalitarian mutuality teachings that door is shut because the idea is to lovingly serve and submit one to another. eph 5-21. Christ through the Holy Spirit is the only leader in the church with other roles, preacher, pastor, deacons, teachers, being roles of servanthood rather than leadership. pat/comps often say women are equal to men but have different roles. they usually mean men in charge, preaching, leading and women follow with doing tradtional roles of wife, mother, nursery worker, teacher of children yet the bible never delineates those roles as ministry roles. those are traditional societal roles,mostly pracriced the world over those who say they are comp will find their marriages are more egalitarian in practice because a good kind true chirstian man will always treat his wife/ family fairly with love and kindness no matter if he is under pat/comp teachings. but an abusive man will take advantage of pat/comp teachings to justify his actions.
@jrbontje2415
Ай бұрын
I’ve been an abused wife and reached out to many complementarian churches and no they don’t care and always ask what I did wrong and give me a list of things I could do better. They never confront or correct the husband even when the husband asks for accountability. I’ve come to the conclusion that they are ultimately patriarchal and they don’t think the man is ever wrong. If you don’t push back or seek help you probably wouldn’t be aware of this problem.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
Ай бұрын
@@jrbontje2415 i am so sorry you had to go through all that needless abuse. the false theology of women submit obey be silent attracts abusers. the good news is there is help for women who have been treated like you. many sites are popping up that offer help and resources for women abused under pat/comp teachings. and ironically they happen to be egalitarian. check out thriving forward and bare marriage. also cbe international. and for bible verses translated from greek in the correct context marg mowzcko and the eden podcast. God bless you on your path to healing
@paullaymon5746
11 ай бұрын
I have never read her work but I have taught this for several years now. Paul continuously uses anthropomorphic terms to describe the church with Christ and husband and wife relationships. Paul’s view is the head and body are in an egalitarian relationship. Corinthians 12 - the parts of the body equally important according to Paul. The head is no greater than the feet. Paul says what people consider the comely are not as important as the uncomely parts of the body.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
Much like how people tend to view the quarterback as the most important on a football team, but any coach could tell you that thinking is stupid. Every position is important and if any are neglected the entire offense suffers. I too got that sense when reading what Paul wrote, and in the Bible in general.
@debbydoodler33
Жыл бұрын
This was great. I'm working my way through The Bible Project's podcast series on the theme of the firstborn, and there are a lot of shared threads there in terms of how God twists human structures of power and status that apply here as well.
@user-iz8np3vv4i
Жыл бұрын
Carly ( I haven't seen this video, but am familiar with such matters.) I have a short essay on Deborah, also my post 'Complementarianism'. Complementarianism is a false teaching. At its center it supports a two-tiered priesthood based on birthright. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood... -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Reply if desired.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
@@user-iz8np3vv4i The fact that you want to discuss the topic but don't take the time to watch the video (and consider ideas other then what you know), tells me neither of us would gain anything from discussing it. But if you do watch the video and want to give your thoughts on it from the egalitarian view, that I would be interested in hearing.
@user-iz8np3vv4i
9 ай бұрын
@@viperstriker4728 I don't have a spare hour. If you have a start time I could watch 10 minutes.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
@@user-iz8np3vv4i You want to watch 10 minutes out of context and understand the entire discussion from that? Maybe spend less time commenting (speaking) and more time watching (listening). That way you will actually have evidence to present behind your view. (I noticed your other comments on this video and others.)
@robrog73
9 ай бұрын
I read and appreciate this book. At the end of the day, I fall on a very, very, very soft complementarianism.
@Bible33AD
Ай бұрын
Hi where do you get the objective definition of very, very soft comolentarianism? Vs hard or soft or very soft or very hard or very very hard or gentle or 2.0 or any other variation? Thanks.
@Chrissiela
9 ай бұрын
Yes, yes, yes, There is consistency in how Paul uses the creation account, Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship in particular, to teach about CHRIST (THE man) and THE CHURCH (THE woman). The Lord shows me this almost 20 years ago when this subject of men vs women came up in a study group that I belonged to at the time. Yet, in all the time since I have never come across a single person who addresses these passages in light of "Christ and the church," despite the fact that Paul, in Eph 5:32 says he's talking about CHRIST AND THE CHURCH. I almost never see anyone do anything with verse 15 in 1Ti:2, despite how being "saved in childbearing" relates to the words Jesus spoke to his MALE disciples in John 16 and how Paul applied those words to his own experience in 1 Cor 13 and Gal 4. We are truly missing the bigger picture... and it is NEITHER complementarian nor egalitarian (LOVE THAT!!) When it comes to Christ and the church we are ALL identified with THE WOMAN (typified in both Eve AND MARY) FIRST, as we wait for THE MAN (CHRIST) to be formed IN US, so that we receive "the adoption of SONS," which is not based on anyone's physical gender, which is why Paul also said: "henceforth know we NO MAN after the flesh." (2Cor5) Kind of hard to choose who should be in "leadership" based on THE FLESH if that is not how we are supposed to KNOW anyone. We are completely missing the bigger picture.
@timconley2787
Жыл бұрын
In the context of the discussion about leadership and comments to the effect that "leadership" does not mean some particular kind of power or authority goes with it, I would like to hear some comment about the kind of leadership Paul exercised when he told the Corinthians the man who was having relations with his father's wife should be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Jesus told the disciples: "Whatever you bind in heaven is bound on earth and whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". Paul often asserts an authority that came with his leadership role through his letters, thought at great geographical distances from them at the time he wrote them. In the numerous councils of the church fathers, groups of bishops, priests and church leaders spoke authoritively on what the trinity was, what orthodox teaching was and what is was not (responding to the arians), and setting the cannon for scripture that gave us the bible. With responsibility comes authority to get things done. I'm not hearing any thing in this discussion that gives value to a leader having authority and power (used in the right way).
@lafamigliabazzani499
Жыл бұрын
I also find it helpful to think of responsibility where most people say “authority”. IIRC the word used for authority is exousia and the ‘ex’ indicates an external source for it, and presumably an external telos/purpose for it having been given There is mention about the what for around 38m (for the building up of the church) but would also like to see more discussion on it
@boomboombelle
Жыл бұрын
Does she touch on the passage where Paul refers back to Adam and Eve on this issue? How could it just be a cultural application if it was before the fall…
@user-iz8np3vv4i
Жыл бұрын
The gender issue was settled with Deborah. Judges 4 and 5.
@jeffallanday
Жыл бұрын
That is an excellent question. I was waiting for that and I did not hear that addressed. I agree it doesn't seem possible to make this cultural argument with that passage. It is very interesting because think how far back in years from Paul he is looking.
@user-iz8np3vv4i
Жыл бұрын
@@jeffallanday (I didn't watch this video, but am familiar with these matters.) Jeff I wrote a post called 'Complementarianism', and a postable essay on Deborah. Let me know if there is any interest. *********************************************** Complementarianism is a false teaching. At its center it supports a two-tiered priesthood based on birthright. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood... -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
@branver1172
Жыл бұрын
She does in her book.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
Do you recall which verse that is? I would like to read to evaluate what your saying.
@whatstheword5648
Жыл бұрын
Do you think we as a church were meant to grow in our understanding of the Kingdom of God and that the 1st Century is just the beginning of that so that's why there are still things like skavery, etc. Slow cultural change or shaping to look like God’s Kingdom?
@hlokomani
Жыл бұрын
top class once again Preston. Wonderful guest too, cheers mate
@gracel316
5 ай бұрын
This video deserves more views, I'll share it.
@chad_stewart
Жыл бұрын
Preston, love what you do, sir. I participated in house churches in Denton, TX for 20 years that were similar to the meetings you attended in Scottland. It was my favorite form of church meeting that I've experienced as well. Let me know if you want more details about how it worked in the U.S. for us.
@ericstone413
Жыл бұрын
I want to hear about it! I'm in the embryonic stage of two different house churches following a "normal church" closure.
@chad_stewart
Жыл бұрын
@@ericstone413 , that's great! We made the small, in-home meeting the main thing, and then added more house church meetings as it grew. I think the key was that before the weekly meetings started up and as they continued, we were really given to group prayer outside the meetings. The meetings were simple and we aimed towards a 1 Cor 14:26 style gathering. We started with singing and prayer. Anyone could start a song. Everyone would join in acapella, and the musicians would join in if they could. We had open sharing from the scriptures (meaning anyone could share) that was guided by the leadership. But if the leaders didn't have to re-direct or gently correct anything on a particular day, then a newcomer might not even be able to tell that there was leadership (although the leadership was super important). After sharing the scriptures, we always ended with the bread and the cup as our response time. And folks that wanted prayer got prayed for, either by an individual or the whole group, as the Spirit lead. This isn't the only way to do it. I think there is room for great variety while enjoying the scriptures, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer (Acts 2).
@annlowry9841
Жыл бұрын
I can't wait to read her book.
@keithbirdwell
3 ай бұрын
This is like saying we can’t know truth vs falsehood. You have to pick a side.
@gr8god4u
Жыл бұрын
I became a Christian not an evangelical so I am a Christianatarium in regards to this issue.
@jeffallanday
Жыл бұрын
I don't really get moved by arguments coming from academics like this. The arguments that move me the most on this are those who are in ministry and talk about it from a ministry role while at the same time looking at these Bible passages. I am a complementarian and I have found the best arguments have been from women in ministry. Women who are actively using their gifts in the church and who speak on this are very impactful to me. I've been part of egalitarian churches and have seen that when women are the preachers and leaders the men just leave. Christianity starts to look like a woman's thing and it is very very hard to get men in the church let alone men in leadership roles. Now does that mean all churches that have women leaders do this I have no idea. I would love to find people who are in egalitarian churches and this does not happen.
@viperstriker4728
9 ай бұрын
I have heard this idea before and I wonder if it is from a difference in how man and women communicate. The feminine focus on feelings might make the same message come off as more personal and hard for a man to apply to his life. Well the masculine seems to remove emotion and pull out personal references. I have seen the same men leaving effect in other places too. Like in the military with it's recruitment rate dropping.
@JudahCub1981
9 ай бұрын
People are leaving the church regardless. It is unfair to blame that on women in leadership. The part of the world where I am from there are predominantly men in leadership in the congregations in our region and most of the sanctuaries are EMPTY on Sabbath and Sunday mornings. That has nothing to do with women in leadership. The scriptures tell us that in the last days there will be a falling away and people will chase after their own pleasures instead of the matters of the Kingdom.
@matthewfunk6658
11 ай бұрын
So, the best argument for complementarianism is scripture and the best argument for egalitarianism is act 2, whatever that means. Doesn't that speak volumes?
@cryptojihadi265
4 ай бұрын
They Hyphenated name, says it all.
@MrKC23
Жыл бұрын
Please interview Frank Viola, who disagrees with monologue culture in church (author of Pagan Christianity) “We need to rethink our entire concept of church and discover it afresh through the lens of Jesus and the apostles.” ~ Frank Viola in REIMAGINING CHURCH (David C. Cook, 2008), p. 273
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