passive skill checks are there as DC's for the DM to use if something is actively trying to be evasive without revealing that there's something to be hidden. The elf with 20 passive perception isn't going to spot a trap from 30+ feet away. At best, 15 feet, and more likely, much closer. Passive stats are often mishandled by DM's, which is the same problem why the Perception skill is such a powerful meta choice to heap bonuses on.
@MyAramil
2 жыл бұрын
Right. Hell it wont automatically reveal everything. Can go with " walking into the room, you feel that something is odd here"
@The_Yukki
2 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't say whether "you see something unseen" like let's say hidden door, would be a wrong use when that happens in premade adventures, if run as written ofc.
@jasonhudson7697
2 жыл бұрын
Passive skills can make for lazy players who want things handed to them and refuse to role play.
@The_Yukki
2 жыл бұрын
@@jasonhudson7697 I fail to see how 'yea i'm good at spotting stuff' equals refusing to role play. Not even mentioning the fact what's considered today 'roleplay' is different from used to be considered roleplay. Roleplaying can be 'i'm a rogue who refuses to use anything but daggers cause I'm too proud to admit that I'm not good with rapiers, and I want to avoid embarassement' It also can be 'i'm the group healer, that's the role I play in my party'
@cp1cupcake
2 жыл бұрын
I decided to reread the rules for passive checks and they are much different than I remember. It gives specific cases for when they are used. As an example, it isn't supposed to be a passive field around you; using the PP example above, if the elf wants to look for traps and the DM wants to speed up the game, then you could use PP instead of rolling. But if the elf isn't looking for traps, then there is no reason for him to spot the DC 5 pit in front of him. "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again" The other time it is recommended is when you do not want to players to know that a check happened: if there is a monster hiding in the room they just entered, having them roll perception might tip them off to something out of the ordinary. You could use it for traps but to not need to. Ofc, there are also the rules like Hiding which specifically invoke passive checks, but that's not really DM fiat.
@karsonkammerzell6955
2 жыл бұрын
I feel like the misconception is that passive = automatic active. I have always viewed passive stuff as something that could be noticed or identified without any need to be actively sought after. Passive Performance: the Bard recognizes a portion of a tune whistled by a NPC as an anthem from another kingdom. Passive Animal Handling: the Ranger notices the animals in the stable are all acting peculiar and seem restless. Passive Perception: a party member notices a coin doesn't glint the way it should. Then each of those could inform an active check to find out more. Bard realizes the kingdom the anthem belongs to as one hostile to the kingdom they're in and perhaps this npc is a spy. Ranger realizes the animals are all avoiding a particular side of the stables. The coin is dull simply because it is particularly aged in comparison to the others. A passive skill should lead to an active something; that's been my understanding.
@JonathanMandrake
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, or an extremely high Passive Perception could also be an indication that the area they are in has something out of place or important without giving it away, as in "This room seems to be used a lot more than most of the other rooms.", especially if the players are tired of guessing where to look. Or I have seen times where DMs have made a puzzle and the players don't get it for hours, if they have someone with a high enough Int stat in the group, or Proficiency in the Area the puzzle is about, why not use that as a Passive to give them a clue their characters might know. Like a dwarf realising something about Stonework that relates to the puzzle for example
@karsonkammerzell6955
2 жыл бұрын
@@JonathanMandrake Yeah. I've always viewed Passive Perception as something that makes the player's character's eyebrow go up with a "Hmmm...?" Hasn't steered me wrong so far, lol.
@CrashCraftLabs
5 ай бұрын
well said
@adamelliott4257
2 жыл бұрын
Wrong way to use passive perception: “You notice a secret door” Right way: “Entering the room, you see scuffmarks on the floor near the book-case that seem repeated over time.”
@UlfFormynder
2 жыл бұрын
13:03 I could see a scenario where that's justified. Fighter: *rolls a 1 for perception* "Yup. Nothing here." Sorcerer: "Dude, you spent like 2 seconds tapping on the wall. Move over and let me have a look." As long as my players can make up a reason why they believe their character would want to re-do someone else's check I'm typically cool with it.
@danielcrafter9349
2 жыл бұрын
Er .... yes Different characters so...
@ObatongoSensei
2 жыл бұрын
And then the sorcerer finds that hidden lever that makes a square block of granite slide down from the ceiling right on the spot he's standing at...
@Plasmagon99
2 жыл бұрын
@@ObatongoSensei Secret door is also a secret trap. Lol. Makes me think of National Treasure 2.
@ObatongoSensei
2 жыл бұрын
@@Plasmagon99 Or a "secret" monster... A long time ago I placed a mimic posing as a hidden door behind a curtain. Guess what happened when the thief tried to pick its lock...
@daltigoth3970
2 жыл бұрын
@@ObatongoSensei He got pushed out of the way by the bard, who wanted to do something else to the lock?
@EliSkylander
2 жыл бұрын
I just use the passive perception for "I've got a strange feeling about this" stuff. Higher pp means they can see (within reason) where something is out of place, but then I have them roll Investigate or Insight to figure out what the something wrong is. If that rolls low, they disregard their intuition. And I mix it up between red herrings and real issues. If the player is in an uncomfortable environment, more false flags than not, but I never say "there was nothing there." if it wasn't a trap or a treasure, it was a rat beneath a stone or a stalactite with a shadow that looks like a bugbear.
@hambonejones7231
2 жыл бұрын
This is a great play style and I'm going to start using it. Thanks for the comment.
@BleydTorvall
2 жыл бұрын
That's how I do it too. Tends to work pretty well.
@ingiford175
2 жыл бұрын
One of my key phrases after a skill check "You did not find it" (even if there is nothing to be found)
@TheAciddragon069
2 жыл бұрын
@@ingiford175 the word i use is "seems" it seems like nothing is there or it seems nothing is wrong
@farrex0
3 ай бұрын
"Higher pp"
@tallguy752
2 жыл бұрын
I feel like RAI is that passive perception is only really for being able to tell if someone is stealthing around them or for not blindly walking into traps. Probably really shouldn't be used to find things in rooms and such.
@idleoz21
2 жыл бұрын
I tell my players that their passive scores are for my disposal not theirs. When player's enter an area, I'll describe what they see at a glance; if none of them are taking the initiative to explore (which rarely happens), I'll choose the players with the appropriate passive perception and let them know they see a little something extra, but just vaguely describe something out of place or that they're not alone. Usually this gets the exploration ball rolling if it hasn't already begun.
@idleoz21
2 жыл бұрын
Consider that I have two players with high passive perception, one at 20 and another at 23
@cp1cupcake
2 жыл бұрын
RAW, CuredMadness is pretty close. I rechecked the blurb about them, and it states that it is used for the following cases: 1) other rules where it is specifically invoked such as the hiding rules 2) repetitive activity like looking for secret doors 3) when the DM does not want the players to know they have rolled a check
@Omen715
2 жыл бұрын
I remember having one player that said that because their passive investigation was so high (mid-twenties), they'd be able to automatically see through all manner of illusions. I told him that those illusion spells specifically stated they required an investigation CHECK to see through, but he wouldn't let me hear the end of it. Ultimately, I told him that if he wanted to use his passive investigation to disbelieve illusions, since a passive score is supposed to represent an average of many checks, he would have to spend 10 minutes in game performing that investigation.
@LordOz3
2 жыл бұрын
I tend to use passive skills as targets for DCs. Want to sneak past the guards, roll vs. the guard's Passive Perception. Want to bamboozle the duke? Roll vs. his passive insight (after some RP that will probably modify the player's check). Want to notice the kobolds sneaking up on you? Roll against their passive stealth. I also use passive initiative for the monsters/opposition rather than rolling. Since it effectively creates a DC for initiative checks, players succeed (win) on a tie.
@cedzou606
2 жыл бұрын
So do I
@thetimebinder
2 жыл бұрын
This is very Apocalypse World style of player focused rolling. I like it a lot.
@The_Yukki
2 жыл бұрын
The kobold example would be kobolds rolling vs players passive perception same way players rolling vs guards passive perception to sneak pass them
@LordOz3
2 жыл бұрын
@@The_Yukki I know that's how most probably run it, but I prefer having players roll whenever possible - it puts their fate in their hands. One exception was an ill-fated experiment having players roll to defend against monster attacks - they didn't like rolling "to hit themselves", so I dropped the idea.
@The_Yukki
2 жыл бұрын
@@LordOz3 Oh, I get that, I was mostly pointing at the weird thing where if players try to sneak up on something, they roll vs the passive, but when something tries to sneak up on players... the players roll vs the passive. I'd expect it to work both ways, the one who performs the action does something and the person who's unaware uses passive to see if they passively hear them.
@SendarSlayer
2 жыл бұрын
"I check for traps" is a meme for a reason. I've never found walking into a room and immediately everyone rolls to look for traps very fun. But I've rarely applied passive perception to traps you have to interact with, such as trapped chests or doors.
@blackwolfe638
2 жыл бұрын
I'm that guy IRL that checks out every inch of a new room and notices what no one else did. *L
@Dinofaustivoro
2 жыл бұрын
The problem is rolling to "check for traps". Tell me what you DO. Do you grab the handle? do you lift the board? do you peek between the blocks?
@SendarSlayer
2 жыл бұрын
@@Dinofaustivoro That sounds horrible. "I want to check for floor traps" "Well the trap was actually under the floor, so take 2d8 damage"
@declaniii6324
2 жыл бұрын
@@Dinofaustivoro that’s what the perception skill is for. If they search under the rug, and there’s a trapdoor under the rug they don’t need to make a check anymore
@Dinofaustivoro
2 жыл бұрын
@@declaniii6324 thats the point
@andrewshandle
2 жыл бұрын
The problem with 2) is a Bard of any experience level can't fail so badly at a Performance that rolling a 1 makes sense to the narrative. I haven't picked up a guitar in a year, but I guarantee I could play a decent song on one at the drop of a hat with no warm up. Would it be a 20 +modifier performance? No, of course not, but it wouldn't be so bad that people would boo and leave the bar. That's the problem with rolling for mundane tasks and why "Taking 10" just makes more sense in a lot of cases. A character with high strength shouldn't need to roll to knock down a flimsy door. I know the belief is that rolling dice is fun, but when it's rolling for something that your character should be able to do with their eyes closed, it's not fun because it can _only_ result in a failure. EDIT: You touch on this later saying the proficiency is the "bonus" for knowing the skill and the roll is random chance, the problem the is the random chance has a 20pt swing, and proficiency only gives you +2 or +3 for most characters. The variability of the dice roll is way too high, for example if a Bard broke a string on their lute, they'd improvise and keep performing and do just fine just like anyone whoo has ever broken a guitar string on stage has done.
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
2 жыл бұрын
Totally agree.
@bsparky01
2 жыл бұрын
This isn't a slight on your comment, just me playing devils advocate. In your example that means there a 0% chance that the guitar is out of tune (stated there was no warm up), that a string breaks, that you hit a note wrong, etc? Does failure automatically mean the crowd boos and storms out? Personally I only use rolls if there is a meaningful outcome for success and failure. If there isn't, then no point in a roll, a character just does a thing. No point in having players roll an investigation check to spot the trap door under rug if they've already pulled the rug back, or playing a lute to entertain a neutral crowd, etc. When there are nat 1s some of the fun is to see how the players recover from those. They can turn into interesting or funny moments that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Its not for everyone and it's not for every situation.
@ingiford175
2 жыл бұрын
@@bsparky01 To add on, a low roll could mean that the crowd that had a higher expectation then the performance done. One explanation of a low roll could be there was a rumor that this bard was very very good, and he does an 'average' performance but the crowd was expecting more.
@bsparky01
2 жыл бұрын
@@ingiford175 Totally agree. Had this come up in a game recently. Bard absolutely slayed the performance roll the first time in a town, bombed the roll when they came back through. We played it as the townsfolk just weren't into what the bard was singing that night since it was about a different place and they were hoping to hear more tales of their area.
@ilfardrachadi2318
2 жыл бұрын
I work as a security patrol guard, and I treat passive perception as that feeling you get when you walk into an area and KNOW something is off, but can't quite put your finger on what it is. It's a pre-warning that there's something that needs to be investigated - your subconscious has picked up on the fact that the garage door isn't quite closed, but you haven't consciously picked up on it yet.
@Dile0303
2 жыл бұрын
To me, passive perception is just "alertness", your ability to notce the obvious and less obvious. If you suspect there is something hidden like a secret door nearby, you have to use the investigate action, and make an invetigation check. Not perception, that's what investigation is for. And even if they find the hidden thing (let's use a door for example) it doesn't mean they immediately know how to use/open it. They might find scratches on te floor indicating something moves, a rug out of place with a key under it, or even a simple button, and those things are potentially not even on the same place as the door. The button could be behind a painting on the wall, or inside the wall, behind a fake brick that is behind said painting It just sounds to me like you let your players passively see all of the hidden things instantaneously with perception as they enter a room, that's on you!
@GuardianTactician
2 жыл бұрын
Passive Scores exist to fill the niche where none of the following apply: 1. There is a chance of failure and the outcome of a roll is interesting. 2. An automatic success is required to find the clue and advance the plot. 3. The DM descibes the environment and will reward players for describing themselves interacting with the environment. This basically means passive mechanics are there for being lazy.
@Venslor
2 жыл бұрын
As to number 1, yes, exactly. I was in a game where there were three paths branching from a central location. Each path had a trap door. Our rogue with a +8 to perception rolled two natural 1s and fell into two of the three traps. By the time we got to the 3rd, it was obvious that there was going to be a trap here. My fighter made a bet with the wizard that he'd fall into this trap too. While I lost, it was a great moment that we still talk about almost 2 years later. When it comes to other things though, like playing the lute, man, you've been playing the lute for a decade. I told my player, if you're playing to earn tips, make performance, if you're just piping in Musak background noise, then no there is no point to roll. A professional musician doesn't have something go horribly wrong 5% of the time they play their instrument.
@ddis29
2 жыл бұрын
i've had players that like rolling dice so much that it was a chore to get them to stop rolling dice. i have had to implement "no touching dice until asked" rules in the past.
@sleepinggiant4062
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly! I hate skill check numbers being thrown at me. Only roll when I ask for one.
@Arcticmaster1190
2 жыл бұрын
I always used passive perception not as an instant success as per RAW, but in effect of “noticing something”. It could be a trap, or a hidden door or anything else, but it’s up to the player who noticed to make the check to further investigate. They don’t instantly succeed in spotting it. This has also worked in favor of my players as a sneaking type rolls a Stealth check and failed (versus a kobold’s passive perception), I had the player describe what he did to get out of sight as the kobold “spotted” him mid-sneeze. So he was able to properly hide and get a second chance at Hiding to where the kobolds then had to make an actual Investigation roll to find him (fortunately, they failed and triggered a trap the hiding rogue had set for them! Fun times.)
@Piqipeg
2 жыл бұрын
This is also how I implement PP. As with other stats, someone else stated that as long as the PCs isn't in danger or a highly stressful situation, they could use passives to auto succeed a skill. You just have to account for how long it would take to complete the skill.
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
2 жыл бұрын
Speaking as a long time GM, I 100% disagree with regards to the exploration pillar. Whenever players enter a room, they should be provided with hints to foreshadow every key feature of that room so that they can make decisions even if their rolls are relatively poor. Missing a hidden door, deadly trap, or necessary clue because you rolled low might be fun on occasion, but in the long run the GM’s job is to provide information about the world for players to interact with. I’m not surprised that many players maximize their passive perception when 50% of the GMs I encounter use perception rolls to lock players out of content and role play opportunities or pointlessly punish them with traps. To be clear, perception should be in the game, whether passive or active, but it should only affect the quality and specificity of the hints. The hints should always be there.
@user-dd9dh9kw5c
2 жыл бұрын
D&D isn't about finding content. This is how new wizards works and it really isn't my type of D&D (and im the dm making the content) I hope to have my players constantly ask me about what they missed and I smile and not say a word. I do agree though, a good dm offers some options. but all hidden doors are not easily found because the environment says so, I reserve those details for plot important things in case a check fails.
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
2 жыл бұрын
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say. Would you clarify?
@user-dd9dh9kw5c
2 жыл бұрын
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 I'm just saying I think your ideals on locking content to players are skewed, players should always be missing things and sometimes thats just a random roll
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
2 жыл бұрын
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c I don’t know what you mean by finding content or locking content onto players. If you’re saying that I don’t prep a huge sandbox outside of my players’ scope that I’m not going to use, that’s true, because that’s a waste of time, but that doesn’t really seem like your criticism. All I’m saying is that’s it’s pointless to plan out secret elements without giving players an opportunity to interact with them. For example, if a GM wants to include a secret passage, they should imply that it exists in some way like telling their players that a thief robbed a manor, but that there were no signs of entry or exit, then their players have the opportunity to deduce that a secret passage exists, and if the GM reveals the passage later, it feels fair because the players had the opportunity even if they didn’t work it out themselves. If a GM totally hides world elements or ties them to arbitrary perception checks, they’re either railroading their players or setting up a rocks falls everyone dies sort of twist, neither of which is fun. Ultimately, a GM is the only window into the game world. A GM’s whole job it to provide the context for players to make decisions in. If a GM doesn’t provide that context, they’re not doing their job.
@user-dd9dh9kw5c
2 жыл бұрын
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 yeah I dont think we will agree on this, its a game about rolling dice and roll playing stuff is gonna sometimes get hidden by dice
@anonymousscience4095
2 жыл бұрын
But LUKE!!! When searching for secret doors, the players can roll into the DM's dice tower. Problem solved. They don't know if they rolled high or low. Same with Stealth, Perception, etc.
@Piqipeg
2 жыл бұрын
This was a pretty good idea 👍
@thetimebinder
2 жыл бұрын
That's just the DM rolling for you with extra steps.
@anonymousscience4095
2 жыл бұрын
@@thetimebinder Except they still get the feeling of agency over their fate, and as a DM, I can always turn the dice tower around to reveal the result if it is dramatically appropriate.
@JMcMillen
2 жыл бұрын
I was thinking this exact same thing. Now I need to get my hands on a dice tower.
@MJ-jd7rs
2 жыл бұрын
2 I didn't create secret doors and traps for them to auto find everything. Then you're not taking into account your PCs when you're building your adventure. What are your PCs capable of doing/finding/overcoming? These should be some basic questions. And this isn't a "bad" thing. Have a player with a Passive Perception of 25? Sweet! That's a GOOD THING. Put a hidden cellar in the basement of the inn that's been sealed away for a thousand years! Something no one else who wasn't that superhumanly observant would ever find! Reward player choices, don't punish them. Build your adventure around your PCs.
@zinogrevz7389
2 жыл бұрын
fire at ur monks
@nemonomen3340
2 жыл бұрын
I’m not convinced that passive skills detract from any meaningful role playing. It’s literally just a different way of determining what happens other than with random chance. You can still describe/role play how everything happens after it’s determined.
@pzalterias5154
2 жыл бұрын
I think it can help give information players would find anyway. It can prevent rolling perception every minute. You can have an idea of what they'd see right away.
@johnholder6601
2 жыл бұрын
It makes sense... High passive perception wouldn't just make you notice secret doors and hidden traps.. but it would make sense to notice someone sneaking up on them etc.
@WolforNuva
2 жыл бұрын
In my games I lower passive perception to 8+mod. This seems to keep in line with other passive DC aspects of the system (specifically spell save DC), and this also means that for example, the guard who's actively keeping an eye out has a higher average for his perception than the one who's just sitting through guard duty and passively keeping an ear out. This also means if someone has enough passive perception to find all the secret doors, they were more likely than not going to find them anyway with a dice roll and we can just skip over what would feel like me making them roll dice to see if they roll low.
@lunaredelvour2972
2 жыл бұрын
Passive perception: "...you *notice some scratches on the floor*, a plush rug in the center, with all sorts of nick-nacks on the shelves and..." Perception roll: "You spot scratches on the floor near a wall, in a circular shape." Investigation: "You notice the scratches are worn in and seem to have been occuring many times over long periods of time. You look closer at the wall, and notice there's a very small gap outlined in a rough rectangle shape. It shifts a bit as you touch the panel." If it wasn't obvious, this is a classic hidden door example I'm using xD I don't overly rely on passive skills personally, but I do use them for the "metagaming prevention" note. Every once in a while, I ask a player to make a perception check when in a dungeon or hostile area to keep them on edge (even if there isn't anything there... Probably not great but hey engagement is engagement xD) but usually it stays passive. Usually dropping a hint with a passive check leads to making a more active check and it gets players a little more curious and involved. Noticing scratch marks on the floor, most players will approach said marks and try to investigate why the marks are there and what they mean/connect to. I also use the party's average passive perception to help me determine how many clues I describe right off the bat about new areas, usually with one or two additional details to the player with the highest passive perception (sometimes relevant details, sometimes not)
@Norseman845
2 жыл бұрын
The groups that I play with normally only use perception as a passive check and even then it's just like a potential triggering event. As an example, your party is traveling through the woods, the cleric with a high passive perception hears a rustle in the bushes. The cleric is then asked to make an active perception check as he turns his head to see the source, he fails and thinks to himself "must have been the wind". Little does he know that a scouting party of goblins are spying on them
@patatas345
2 жыл бұрын
I've taken observant before for my first character. Not to avoid ever having to look but because it was my first character. I didnt know where to look and every time I looked for something or thought maybe I'd found a spot something could be there was nothing there. It was out of loving exploration but never having any success. My DM fed this by letting me notice something was off in an area and not immediately telling me what was off. I loved it! I finally got a poke in the right direction to feed my desire to explore. I still had to skill check and still had to look in the right place.
@PH03NIX96
2 жыл бұрын
At my table Passive Perception: Use value to notice traps or stealthed enemies Passive investigation: Used to notice clues or hidden passageways Passive Insight: Used only in conjunction to do a contested deception check from an npc. In regards to PP and PI in most situations I do not allow an active roll or regardless of the roll they get a 'warm fuzzy' that everything is okay, as the passive roll denotes the characters inclination in a contested check.
@adamwoolston253
2 жыл бұрын
I like the idea of using passive checks as DCs for enemies or NPCs to beat. Like the example you gave of stealth vs passive perception, or deception vs passive insight (because calling for an insight check effectively tips off the players that he’s lying). I have also used passive intimidation in some situations and like it. An 8-foot Goliath Barbarian walks into a tavern, he just LOOKS intimidating and will make people nervous just by his very presence. He asks the bartender questions about the town, and bartender responds as though the Goliath succeeded on an intimidation check, even though he was making no effort to be intimidating. Of course, I’d also make this Strength (Intimidation) rather than Charisma because the intimidation factor comes more from the fact that he’s huge. The common theme for me is passive checks aren’t used for things the player is actively TRYING to do. It’s either to set a DC or to exist as an unintended consequence (passive intimidation can have positive and negative consequences when you’re creative about it. NPCs are more forthcoming with information but less likely to accompany you)
@DrewTombs
2 жыл бұрын
I use passives as a means of close-counters automatic information. So passive perception only really applies to things they notice on a quick glance, it doesn't reveal a hidden door but perhaps less dust in that area, and helps them not be surprised by someone stealthing on them. Passive investigation only applies if they actually want to go to that particular area where something is, but for doors and things will reveal them but not the mechanics to open it, and for traps doesn't automatically disarm them but just reveals them. Passive insight only applies to general "vibes" from the npc, like a quick read of them without revealing anything detailed. They still need to make an active check or do something in order for the thing to be discovered/revealed properly.
@StopperJJ
2 жыл бұрын
The only times I really use passive perception or passive checks are, like you mentioned, are when an enemy is actively attempting to get past the players or sneak up on them and I don't want to spoil a surprise. I will occasionally use it to determine who in the party might notice something I specifically want the characters to be aware of but maybe not everyone. I've had some funny moments where one character actively withholds that information for a specific reason. It sews a bit of chaos into the moment that makes things spicier when done sparingly.
@nathanross5527
2 жыл бұрын
Just at the part where you mentioned a player rolling a 1 on a check and being convinced there's a secret door. Happened to me with a cleric I was playing. We were searching a room, he rolled a nat 1 on Investigation. He was adamant there was a secret button somewhere on this ornate desk that would open a door in the wall or floor. Time passed, our trespassing was found out, and we had nowhere to run. Another character found a button somewhere else in the room, and my grumpy dragonborn cleric felt so vindicated.
@O4C209
2 жыл бұрын
Luke, you are misusing Passive checks. Passive represents doing something repeatedly; that's why you use a base 10, the average roll. If you walk into a room and say you check for a hidden door at the book shelf, you roll. If you go into a room and say I check everything, then you use Passive. This is when you ask what someone's passive check is; it usually isn't a "hidden roll.". If you don't want Passive to be used, put a time crunch. You can't use passive to search the room because guards are coming.
@CWayneMartin
2 жыл бұрын
One way to work around passive perception is to 1, it must be equal to/better than the DC to find the object/thing and 2, it only works within a radius of feet equal to their passive perception score. A character with a passive of 14 can only spot things within 14ft and if it has a DC of 14 or lower. I still have players roll for perception (for up to their max default range) and default to their passive score if they rolled low and walk within range of the thing. It works around creatures hiding 30ft away, even if they rolled a low stealth. The character will have to try to roll actively to spot the creature or investigate the area
@KC24987
2 жыл бұрын
Always interpreted passive perception as a skill check DC for stealth checks and sleight of hand. Also see it as an individual's peripheral vision/sensitive hearing for rp moments. Never saw it as a means of finding secret doors.
@sleepysorceress671
2 жыл бұрын
Very trueeee! Passive sometimes works, other times not so much. "I play the lute with my passive." "Ok, you play. Nothing happens." "Nothing happens?" "No. Perhaps you need to impress them with a more heartfelt performance. Onwards." Also, there are ... cursed Stones of Luck. Which sounds like so much fun too.
@bobwaka1
2 жыл бұрын
I thought passive perception was for not getting caught off guard? For example your players are walking into an ambush and your passive perception catches the stealthing bad guys to avoid a surprise round. Or another example if your character is interacting with an npc and the npc is actively lieing and the PC feels something is off due to the passive perception and then you can have them roll an insight check with advantage or something. Or am I missunderstanding passive perception?
@paradocks23
2 жыл бұрын
Nah, you got it right. The passive is supposed to help determine if your player gets a prompt to roll from the DM, not an auto success.
@tavernleaguednd
2 жыл бұрын
I like to use passive scores to "prompt" players for something useful, such as a player with an acceptable passive Perception score being prompted with, "something about the floor over in the corner catches your eye." This prompts the player to investigate, thus using an actively rolled Perception or Investigation to find a trapdoor. This gives the players what they want, passive scores able to be used to NOT MISS STUFF, but also keeps the base mechanics of actively checking things
@tavernleaguednd
2 жыл бұрын
It also gets away from checking for traps and perception in EVERY room cuz they know they'll likely be prompted if anything interesting or dangerous is present.
@daltigoth3970
2 жыл бұрын
Passive skills are intended to replace the old "take 10" rule, but I agree that using them that way takes a lot out of the game, so I use them as "intuition" instead. If the players are taking their time to explore, they are passively getting a "10" on skill checks. If their skill bonus + 10 is enough to match or beat the DC to accomplish something, they don't automatically accomplish it. I just let them know that they've noticed something, and it is up to them to explore that further if they so choose, which will require an active skill check. "As you make your way down the hall - Glindor, you notice something seems off." I'll pause there to let Glindor react and decide what they want to do about it. If they decide to look start looking around without warning their companions first, their friends will trigger the trap as Glindor subconsciously avoids it. If Glindor halts the party and looks around, they make a Perception check. If they fail the check, they put their foot down on the pressure plate that triggers the trap as they are looking around. If they succeed the check, they notice the tile beneath their foot is loose and back off of it before putting enough pressure on it to trigger the trap. I find that this method adds to the exploration pillar, rather than taking away from it, as it clues the players in to explore things more without the incredibly dull experience of the players trying to push, pull, twist, flip and kick every goddamned brick in a dungeon. I still have memories of my first D&D session where half the party died to a trap, so the rest proceeded by tapping every square inch in front of them with a 10' pole before taking another step, literally spending 2 in-game weeks exploring a dungeon that only had 6 rooms (Luke mentions having a similar experience later in the video) (EDIT) Still watching the video, so adding additional points below. Technically there is a passive score for every skill (per RAW), but you generally don't need most of them. The party will usually stay together, so you only need to note or remember the highest passive score, and Perception is the only one that is really getting used most of the time, so that is the only one I bother to track. If the highest passive score beats the DC, then you can always ask the players for their passive scores or just say "those of you with passive scores higher than X notice this". Using passive skills as an "intuition" regarding the skill rather than replacing the actual skill check negates the argument about it rendering class features useless. Passive skills save time not due to the time it takes to complete one check, but the time it takes for the DM to compare the highest passive score in the party against the DC versus the time it takes for each player to make the check and report their roll to the DM. Oftentimes, only one player makes a check initially, then others will attempt the check afterwards if the first player doesn't succeed. I hate the way this plays out most of the time, but that is a different issue altogether. In any case, I don't use passive skills as a time saver myself, but it does accomplish this to some extent as the players don't feel the need to examine every 5' of space in the dungeon if I haven't mentioned anything seemed out of place. Sometimes they fall into traps because of this, but I'm okay with that. Passive skills represent basic skill - I don't really agree with this, but again, I use passive scores as intuition, not as the "take 10" instead of rolling option, though I would use it as "basic skill" in some respects. Your passive performance score might allow you to do some basic dance moves on your own without looking foolish or hurting yourself, but it doesn't let you dance with a partner or do ballet in time with the music. Maybe you can juggle a bit when you are just goofing around, but once you are actually trying to impress someone with those skills, you'll need to roll for it. I do not allow passive checks to be used for tools or instruments of any kind. Those must always be rolled, so there is always an element of chance involved.
@michaeldlubac9096
2 жыл бұрын
First rules as written there are no crits or fumbles for skills checks there are only crits for combat and not fumbles, those are house rules, common ones but still house rules. If this was enforced there would be a lot fewer 1/2 everything with people fishing for 20s to try and force the DM to allow something that isn't possible, with that you stop the people that don't have the skill to fish for 20s to automatically succeed. Look at 3rd and 3.5 when taking 10 and taking 20 was a thing but you could only do it when the players had 10x or 20x the time (and resources) to do the task, if they are rushed for time it requires a roll. Perception will allow a player to find a secret door, but not how to open it, that would fall under investigation. That said if you add up the characters bonuses +1 and they are enough to pass the test then there should not be a roll required (see the no crits and fumbles for skills). If crafting a horse shoe is a DC 5 test then any proficient character should have an easy time crafting them.
@jakeand9020
2 жыл бұрын
I used to completely ignore passive perception, I then learned to use it to determine if I prompt for a perception check, or give some indication of where to search etc.
@ingiford175
2 жыл бұрын
The 'great successes' and 'great failures' reminds me playing WoD decades ago, and we had a night were no one could succeed at almost anything. Things such as 8+ dice to throw a grenade, no successes. It was called in our group "Night of 1000 botches" and still remembered decades afterwords.
@NigeltheLucky
2 жыл бұрын
I for the most part agree. This has made me change how I do things. I randomize trap perception rolls because I don’t wanna just arbitrarily make it all 15 so that the pc auto find it. If it’s hard the trap is 12 +1d8. So I kinda inverted the process. I also make you roll even with passive perception. Just because you know something is off doesn’t mean you know what it is. I’ll be vague unless you make the roll, I may say a brick is out of place as opposed to a pressure trap. If someone is sneaking or attempting to steal something I will make you roll to notice. If you fail the roll but have a good passive perception I’ll tell you something while it’s happening. It’s possible that someone steals something from you but you see them as they do it. If you make the roll I’ll tell you before something is right in your face giving you a chance to stop it.
@Vagabond820
2 жыл бұрын
I have read some good comments here. While I personally disagree with the thesis of the video, it presented valid points. I feel a lot of the issues mention and response comments boiled down to: passive skills are just that, passive. When a character is not being active then passive checks make a great base response. Some mentioned things like not noticing the trap but instead noticing something off about the room. Or a bard recognizing a uncommon song based on a brief whistle. Or avoiding tripping over a puppy who suddenly ran between your legs without falling. A great example is the bar scene in Englorious Bsterds where the German officer notices the spy order drinks by making a British gesture; he was actively searching for a spy but was perceptive enough to notice the different gesture. If a character is being active, then they roll and get more engaging results as would result from a more engaged action while a character who is being passive gets a passive check and very superficial results of such behavior. Ex. A guard on watch who has no reason to believe anything will happen and is just standing around is passive and uses passive perception while one who heard something strange or just tries to take his job seriously would roll perception instead. Passive vs Active behavior.
@KaleDavid
2 жыл бұрын
I have a player who built his PC to have a Passive Perception of 31. He's level 13. I use it to give info on distant noises and such, but rarely allow it to avoid a trap he isn't actively looking for.
@jimmybuchanan4995
2 жыл бұрын
In the games I've run, I split the system in to passive and trivial skill checks. If I need to use passive perception to prevent metagaming, I use the standard skill + 10 rule. The trivial rule I use is that if a player is going to be doing a repetitive task within a session, if they would beat the check by rolling a 5 or more, they don't need to roll for it. I do not use the trivial rule in combat, important story moments, or where the outcome of a roll could impact a session in a major way. As far as solving the metagame problem of players attempting another check after a 1 is rolled, I've implemented what I call a "no double dipping" rule when I feel it is appropriate, where any players who want to participate in a check another player is making may roll at the same time, but once the skill check has resolved, it cannot be attempted again later.
@MySqueezingArm
2 жыл бұрын
In Pathfinder 2e, the 'passive' checks are handled as secret GM checks. *The rogue picked up Trap Finder to automatically get a secret check for traps when enterring a room.* The GM rolls the die, and delegates information if the player succeeds. Yes, most of the time that rogue will find the trap, but once in a while that check won't work. If the rogue player roleplays and still checks for traps, they effectively have advantage to all trap checks.
@darthcalzone6653
3 ай бұрын
11:56 My counter to this is occasionally getting my players to roll a dice without any reason. They know this now, and, even though I do sometimes use passive checks, they have become accustomed to not taking any notice of having to roll a die.
@Esproth
2 жыл бұрын
As a DM I use passive skills as something I roll against or an instinct thing that helps get the vibe of the area, like something is feeling off you should start looking around to figure out why. It is not an auto detect for hidden things.
@louis-pierreveilleux4895
2 жыл бұрын
I usually have my players roll all their checks, but usually limit it to one perception check per room/ corridor. I only use the passive stuff to determine if they are aware of something when they’re not actively searching ( do they spot the ambushers lurking in the shadow), and even then, a passive perception allows them to get a hint that something is weird (no birds are singing, a suspicious metallic clink in the dark, or a strange breeze in a room) which may get them to actively try to perceive what is the source (active check). Let them work to find the enemy, trap or secret door. It is just pure evil delight to see the players get the hint about the secret, but fail their checks! Now the players know there is a secret somewhere, their characters suspect it, but they know that they just can’t find it 😈
@BrandonGiordano
2 жыл бұрын
As a player AND DM I'm gonna disagree with you. I love passives. They make the game a bit more streamlined and make character RP more fulfilling. Example. I'm currently playing an eldritch knight fighter who's meant to be like the witcher with heightened senses. I currently have a passive perception of 20 so I can RP those heightened senses. If I never get to use my passive and im always forced to roll then I'm beholden to the RNG gods and that can lead to me being more frustrated with the system since it makes me feel like the system as designed isn't allowing me to play this character how I want. Another youtuber said something which clicked with me. They said "would failure makes this interesting or add anything to the experience?" That's usually how I decide if rolling is necessary
@sleepinggiant4062
2 жыл бұрын
Feats that add to passive should also add to active - bonuses from feats should not be at the DM's whim. Feats that depend on the DM's whim are dumb because then DM avoids using them - case in point: what you are doing. Letting your players shine when they have invested a feat is perfectly fine, and should be facilitated by you as DM - not avoided. I have a similar problem with monsters mysteriously knowing I have Sentinel. You should not have the same PC notice everything, you should move that check around to different PCs. Not everyone is everywhere at the same time looking at the same things. Give the opportunity to other characters to avoid them autowinning your game, but let them notice the majority of things (as it should be). Comparing the DC to the passive is much less time than asking the player to roll, them finding their die, rolling, adding up their numbers, reporting the result back to you, and then you compare the values. Even if rolling dice is fun, you can roll dice when it matters more, and have more fun. Slog-fest games where you do nothing but roll perception all night is extremely boring. Just tell us what we see. If we feel the need to search, we will. Not joking - while crossing a vineyard: Me: "Are there any buildings around?" The DM: "roll perception."
@sonicexpert986
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah... this hits home. Just had a huge reddit thread on DM academy about it too. There's multiple valid ways to do things, I lean towards putting the "master" back in Dungeon Master. Make it clear to your players how YOU will use the mechanics, and they can adjust their character builds as needed or decide to find a different game. If the kind of game I want to run is different from the one you want to play in, we can agree to disagree and find a better fit. Or try to compromise. Communication is key.
@pedrogarcia8706
2 жыл бұрын
I think passive perception, or really any passive check you wanna apply it to, only works if you really understand the word 'passive'. It's right in the name. A character's passive perception is used when they aren't trying to look for something. If they see something in their periphery while travelling, or hear something off in the distance while occupied with something else, they've not actively perceiving, they're passively perceiving. So they wouldn't roll a skill check because they're not trying to do something. But if they're looking around to find a secret door, that's an active action they're choosing to make, so that should require a skill check.
@theophrastusbombastus1359
2 жыл бұрын
I have a player with passive perception 23. I don't allow him to auto-find everything Instead I make it so that they only auto-find secret doors, traps, etc. if they come within 10 or 15 ft of it And it also doesn't mean he can see a secret compartment under a desk all the way from the doorway
@cloudfair2
2 жыл бұрын
My fix for passive perception is: in general passive perception only notices changes in your environment or anything overtly out of the ordinary for that environment. If something moves, you notice, if there is an oak tree leaf in the desert, you notice. But, you don’t notice trapdoors because they already existed in the environment, nothing changed and it wasn’t overtly out of place. You won’t notice enemies that have entrenched themselves in an area because they’ve become a part of the environment by the time you arrive. In general, Passive Perception notices something changed, Active Perception notices something’s wrong.
@Rubycule
2 жыл бұрын
Wait... are you supposed to use passive perception for spotting traps in dnd? I only use them as a DC if NPCs are trying to sneak up, steal something or otherwise try anything that involves a roll on their part that might get spotted by the PCs. Similarly, I use passive insight as the DC if a NPC is trying to actively lie to the party.
@MJ-jd7rs
2 жыл бұрын
As per jeremy crawford, passive perception represents the baseline observance of a character. What they see/notice just by existing. It's not that a perception check can roll lower than a passive perception, but that anything lower than the passive perception score was already noticed by the character. IRL someone with a high passive perception would be able to walk through a room heading to the kitchen and recount the exact details of the items in the room, it's what they notice just by being there. Someone with a god tier passive perception would be able to perfectly recall the number of lego bricks spilled on the floor of the room.
@SendarSlayer
2 жыл бұрын
@@MJ-jd7rs Recall and memory is intelligence though :P.
@sleepinggiant4062
2 жыл бұрын
No. You use passive perception when you call for it. You decide as DM when they use it. Traps are a great example where you don't want to give away that there is something there, so instead of asking for a roll, you just compare passive scores. Insight is another good example where you can give away the result no matter what you say if they roll low.
@travisdonaldstanley6420
3 ай бұрын
@@SendarSlayer Agreement. This whole video and the comments are kind of odd.
@theDMLair
2 жыл бұрын
LAIRS & LEGENDS KICKSTARTER ▶▶ www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedmlair/lairs-and-legends?ref=59pir1 𝐁𝐞𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐚 𝐃𝐌 𝐋𝐚𝐢𝐫 𝐏𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧 - Get Lair Magazine (5e adventures, VTT maps, puzzles, traps, new monsters, and more), play D&D with me, and other perks ▶▶ www.patreon.com/thedmlair
@cavalier7722
2 жыл бұрын
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Passive skills are used as a default when characters make the same ability check consecutively. Outside of that, Passive Perception is used for the purposes of stealth. Passive Perception shouldn't be revealing traps unless the player is actively looking for them
@sleepinggiant4062
2 жыл бұрын
Passive skills are not dependent on the activity the character does. It's the DM's call whether you roll or not.
@cp1cupcake
2 жыл бұрын
@@sleepinggiant4062 I rechecked the rules for them and Cavalier pretty much covered them. The only thing he didn't add is use for the DM to have the players roll checks without knowing a check has been rolled.
@sleepinggiant4062
2 жыл бұрын
@@cp1cupcake - Nothing active vs. passive is determined by the player. The DM makes the call and repeated activities is the example given as when the DM might make that call.
@ms09179
2 жыл бұрын
Traps and secret doors aren’t single items ordered from the ACME Trap & Door Division. You can alter DC based on many things: environment (darkness, combat etc), who built it (a goblin hidden door is going to be considerably less effective than one in a mage’s tower because of the difference in creature INT), or type (a false wall and a stone shaped closure are very different and a rogue might detect *A* trap, but not its nature if it’s arcane). You can give perception without giving away the entire situation.
@RavinerPayne
2 жыл бұрын
I will up to a limit get everyone's search (the hidden trap door type thing) and add similar checks together. Though if all 4 or so are checking one small corner they'd get an increase to their required pass due to being in each other's way.
@MageLeaderInc
2 жыл бұрын
I'll start with obviously passive perception can be run however the DM and plays agree upon. But according to Jermy Crawford, "Perception checks are typically made only when characters actively search for something, and normally, they're searching because their passive Perception failed to notice something." And then in his pod cast he calls Passive Perception the floor. So that would mean you only roll if your passive perception already isn't high enough to detect what is hidden.
@Tysto
9 ай бұрын
I'm an old-school guy, not 5e, and here's what I do. Things of interest may be obvious, concealed, or hidden. If you don't search, you find obvious things, of course, and have a 1-in-6 chance to find concealed things (You brush past the curtain and notice there's a door behind it. You move the cushions for no reason and find a fancy dagger.). If you search, you find concealed things and have a 1-in-6 chance of finding hidden things (or whatever your ability is to find traps, detect secret doors, detect unsafe stonework, etc.) I can always decide that something is not hidden _that_ well, so you can't find it without a search but you automatically find it with a search.
@goatofdeath
2 жыл бұрын
I generally agree with the sentiment that I like requiring rolling or at least require the players make an affirmative statement that they are doing a certain thing rather than having skills just be auto on in the background. The reminder to the DM from the player, when the DM has so much to keep track of already, just makes sense to me. That being said, given the high variance of a D20 in comparison to the skill stat itself can tend to make things feel super unrealistic at times that can cause its own issues. This was less prevalent in 3.0, which lacked bounded accuracy, so the high proficiency levels you could reach would greatly reduce the influence of the random chance element of things, while not removing it entirely. The lower numbers of bounded accuracy make random chance become a larger factor in the rolls. That can be both good and bad. So I understand why things might go more passive, though I would still lean towards the roll side of things. Perhaps in some cases it's good to house rule a fudge factor to make the skills have more of an influence over the roll, rather than luck. Like maybe double the proficiency bonus in some cases, especially for extended contests of skill. That makes it less about the luck of the die and more about the abilities in which the PC invested, while not entirely discounting the die roll itself, just reducing its influence a bit.
@Rikrockn1
2 жыл бұрын
Personal I came up with a home-brew that uses the Animal handling skill as a Passive Skill Mechanic around riding mounts. A novice rider may simply be able to spend a bonus action command their mount to use its action to disengage from combat, while a trained knight is able to spend a bonus action command their war griffon to use its action to attack. If the riders animal handling skill is high enough the mount might even get multi attack while they mount it. I would use Passive Skill Mechanic only if it prevents players from rolling an excessive amount of dice, or if I created a table that allows them cool options that reflects their knowledge and skill.
@igorcdomingues
2 ай бұрын
I'm trying an idea to make all players roll perception as soon as they enter a room and then giving each player a bit of information based on how high they rolled, "14" "You notice some marks on the ground near a book case" "20" you see thar the torch nearest to the bookcase on the wall sims a bit more worn out than the rest" "1" " You get distracted by the painting of a naked lady on the opposite wall and see none of that" "Also, there's a drow pointing a crossbow at you, though you all should know that"
@Vpkoivisto
2 жыл бұрын
One way I could see using passive Ability/skill checks: - A character attempts to break a door open. - I compare their Passive Strength to the door's break DC. If the Passive Str is the same or higher, no check is needed and they bash the door open without a check. - In a hostile/hectic situation I'd ask for a check regardless, because the consequences matter more than in moments with no immediate threat.
@sable2146
2 жыл бұрын
13:40 for my table, the solution is: "Okay, noticing that [player 1] seemed really distracted staring at wall, you decide to check it out as well. You spend another 10 minutes searching the area..." *adds another die to the tension pool in front of the players* "...and roll an investigation check. Is anyone else doing anything during that 10 minutes? ... Oh, [player 3] you want to provide a help action? Sure..."
@ninjasqurl4383
2 жыл бұрын
House rule I’ve put in. I removed passive perception/investigation checks. Changed the observant feat to give advantage on the check. I then keep the passive skills as a note behind the screen and just give info to the relevant player when it’s thematically appropriate or would be “fun” It’s not perfect. But this has made my experience better as a DM. And my players seem to be just fine with it.
@sashajace2745
2 жыл бұрын
I'm with a bunch of the other commenters below - passive perception in my games is that moment when you think you see something out of the corner of your eye. I usually describe like this to new players - Imagine you've lost your keys and you're trying to figure out where you put them. You're looking around the room and you spot the glint of something under the couch and think 'oh hey my keys' and get on your hands and knees and find that's just a nickle. Seeing the glint while standing there is your passive perception - you notice something that may or may not be worth checking out further. Getting on your hands and knees and looking under the couch, that's the actual perception/investigation check. Or to steal an example from Metal Gear Solid, Passive Perception tells the guard that there's a cardboard box out of place. But the active check he fails tells him "huh, just a box" and puts him back on his patrol. If the Guard's passive perception didn't beat the stealth roll to hide in the box, they wouldn't have noticed that it's slightly out of place to begin with.
@cp1cupcake
2 жыл бұрын
12:00 Fun thing with VTTs; they have options for rolls where nobody knows the roll except the DM.
@cp1cupcake
2 жыл бұрын
Rereading the passive check rules, it reads like they only are suggested for 3 cases: 1) Rules which specifically invoke passive checks such as hiding 2) 5e's equivalent of 'taking 20' "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again"3) DM wants to know the result of a check without the player knowing a check has been made
@FrostSpike
2 жыл бұрын
I have 6 x d100 tables with randomised 30x 1-20 results so, statistically, it's equivalent. At the beginning of the game (or whenever I feel like it), I get the players to roll a d6 and d100 combo a number of times and that gives me a bunch of d20 results for their characters that I can use where I need hidden "active" rolls - where they don't know if they've succeeded or not. I use it for their death rolls too. Happy days.
@jakeand9020
2 жыл бұрын
12:08 Not in my games. I keep a chart of all their modifiers. When I "call for a perception check" I actually just call for a D20 roll. Just to mess with them, I sometimes call for a roll for no reason whatsoever. That will slow the game down initially, but players will learn fairly quickly that me calling for a roll doesn't necessarily mean anything. Soon enough they will treat it as normal and it doesn't alert them to anything.
@PetiteOmnivore
2 жыл бұрын
Good video and valids points. The only time ive used a passive skill check is i was trying to side with my level 3 group of 5 adventurers that decided to open a door to a barracks of 5 sleeping orcs to try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wouldnt wake them up since my player stated nothing other than opening the door. His passive stealth in this instance was the same as the orcs passive perception. It was hilarious to see his face when they realized what happened and the group was split. I guess to get back to it. I agree that the use of passive skills should be extremely limited and dice rolling is what should tell the story more often.
@airdragon11studios
2 жыл бұрын
I use passive checks as a sixth sense. If your passive would notice a trap you feel like there's danger near. You have that feeling until you roll.
@emessar
2 жыл бұрын
Here's an idea to help solve the META gaming ... when the players encounter a trap, secret door, stealth goblins, etc. Have whatever they are encountering roll a d20 + its DC - 10 (so a DC 15 door would be D20+5). If the roll is higher than anyone's passive perception, the group does not find it. If it's lower then the group finds it. If it's relevant, the people who have a passive perception higher than the rolled DC can make a check to see who finds it first. If it's something like a secret door that you find while moving through a space, you could use marching order to determine who finds it first out of a group of people whose passive perception beats the rolled DC. Also, another thing to mitigate the "search everywhere" problem ... instead of making people roll for every 5 feet, just have it take time. I minute per 5 foot section of wall isn't unreasonable and adds up. 10 minutes for a 5 foot square of living space. Maybe even 20-30 minutes per 5 foot square of a more complex or detailed area, like a library.
@dgpainting638
2 жыл бұрын
I use passive perception for travel sections and only the one at front and rear of the group so long as they declare they are keeping an eye out.
@travisdonaldstanley6420
3 ай бұрын
Passive Perception is what guides the DM when they explain things to a player. For example, the player has a PP score of 15. The NPC has a stealth check of 12. The DM explains hiw they heard, sean, or smelled something that is nearby. Next the player tells the DM what they are going to do. Throw a spear into the bushes, or just pretend to not notice it.
@MG-mh8xp
2 жыл бұрын
I like the idea that passive perception *isn't* perception but it's wether or not you notice something. Then you roll perception to be able to see the thing is there, or even see it correctly.
@derrickbacken5572
2 жыл бұрын
I do one-shot adventures for my group when our normal DM is either out sick or hasn't had time to build a session. I often do group needed strength checks to open stone doors, or break certain walls. I will have them roll 2-3 times before allowing them to use passive strength scores (if they are strong enough as a group)
@colinz226
2 жыл бұрын
but luke, as a GM, my main way of expressing affection is to make my players cry themselves to sleep at night! how else would i express my affection to you (aside from Patreon, imma broke college student)
@JohnSmith-ro2sc
2 жыл бұрын
Long soliloquies stating your love might work
@crashcitygames1592
2 жыл бұрын
This is awesome!!!
@tragicarrogance2401
2 жыл бұрын
As far as I understood the rules, you use passive checks in place of loads of ability checks (repeatedly performing an action) because that is going to save loads of time. This is an extansion of "let's not announce and rp in detail every small stick our characters do in game every time they do it". Yes, I can check every single bloody door in that dungeon for traps before touching it, and every floor tile, and I can interrupt all our conversations in semi-public places with "are we being watched" and "while the other people are searching the room, I watch that back door" and nobody is having fun because it takes bloody forever. My passive perception for that game is 16, and I wouldn't want to be handed all mysteries on a platter if it was 26, but I want to be able to establish that I have a decently paranoid character without taking one play session to move through 5 empty rooms.
@jonathanschmitt5762
2 жыл бұрын
Everyone gangsta until they release passive death saves. Edit: 9:08 You just summed up Momo in 1 phrase.
@mark_sturzbecher
2 жыл бұрын
I only use Passive Perception in combat. If someone tries to hide during combat, I usually give them a 0, -2, -5 or a -10 to their stealth check (depending on how difficult it is to break LoS). They have to beat the monster's Passive Perception in order for the monster to lose track of them.
@Scorpious187
2 жыл бұрын
There's an easy way to get around the passive perception monster. I use passive perception as a way to determine which players are going to notice that something is out of place or strange in a particular setting, but then they roll Investigation to see what it is. Because nobody builds up their Investigation skill in D&D.
@IanPanth
2 жыл бұрын
I use it to decide who gets to roll for more information. I limit the rolls to the the top 1 or 2. The same thing for passive insight. They definitely notice something about the NPC but they still need to roll to find out what the specifics are.
@kamilswiercz1468
2 жыл бұрын
Player with high passive perception is actualy nice person to have on board. Player doesn't autosucced. "You fel strange bryze of cold wind in this casemate. When you focus on at that simple feeling you losst it imediatly, but you are sure what you fel second ago. In this stuffy room somewhat you caught a bit of fresh air. What do You do?"
@sir.rettfordiii8824
2 жыл бұрын
I had a DM in the past who played really fast and loose with the rules. If you failed your perception check, they would ask what your passive perception was. If it was high enough for their liking, you auto-succeeded. So when it was my chance to DM, the players would always ask to replace their failed rolls with their passive perception. They weren't to happy when I said no.
@MrBaallard
2 жыл бұрын
Active, Passive and Contested checks aren't good nor bad but are useful for the right situation. 1. An active roll, the players initiate an action against a passive object (open a Door, pick lock, perceives something very specific , etc.) they roll vs the DM's determined DC. 2. The Passive roll, the players are unware/passive while the NPC is actively working against them, the DM rolls against the Players DC (NPC stealth or NPC slight of hand vs Players passive perception skill in order to detect something generic/vague). 3. The contested roll, both PC and NPC or other PC activity battle each other and both roll (grappling, deception vs. insight, slight of hand vs perception,...). I would be very interested in seeing video where you go over all three with examples comparing and contrasting each. Thanks
@dukejaywalker5858
2 жыл бұрын
Amen brother! I don't use passive perception at all in my games. If I want/need them to find something, they find it. If there's a chance they'll miss something, they roll. Passive perception is just putting the game on auto-pilot. Let's get rid of saving throws for monsters while we're at it. Contested spell attack rolls vs. the monster's save is way more exciting.
@antieverything1
2 жыл бұрын
Another video where Luke demonstrates that he doesn't know how Passive Perception works. Cool, cool. I'm here for it.
@sitnamkrad
2 жыл бұрын
BUT LUKE!!!! I'm actually surprised this one didn't get mentioned, but it's one of my biggest issues with some of the skill checks, especially insight. Namely, what about things that a character would definitely think to do, but a player forgets. The best example is insight because "Insight check" has become synonymous with "I think you're lying". The player already needs to suspect someone is lying in order to trigger an insight check and see if their suspicions are correct. I do think that the "Basic skill" argument kind of comes into play here. Not in the sense that it's their lowest possible skill roll, but in the sense that it's their modus operandi. A dungeon delver would always be checking for traps, a detective would always be checking for lies, it rarely makes sense for a character to stop doing this just because the player forgets to mention it once. I do think the basic skill argument holds some water, because in my opinion, the normal proficiency bonus doesn't feel right. You're telling me that someone who has proficiency with an instrument, only has 10% more chance to succeed at playing something well than someone who never played before? Sure it increases, but even at the highest level, there's still a chance that someone without skill out-lucks a master musician. I don't quite agree with the analogy with participation trophies either. These players created a build. That means they did the research on the game mechanics and how certain things interact within those mechanics. They have made decisions that forced them to give up other advantages. They had to do something to earn their rewards. This isn't just a "you show up at the table so you win" kind of thing. They played in a different way and "won" (for as much as you can win at D&D that is). Now, you may not agree with their way of playing. You may think that their way of playing ruins the game. All of those arguments are still valid. But when a player creates a specific build, it's like them saying "I expected these challenges, I came up with an answer in advance". It was part of their prep work, and I think one would need to be very careful to label "prep work" as something that requires "no effort".
@unclebear83
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for putting those into words. I needed to read them. ^^ Playing a high-Insight Monk Loxodon and the DM has been relegating Insight's link to WIS abilities to INT...my second worst stat.
@thegreengnome
2 жыл бұрын
In my games, passive skills checks don't provide the same quality results. A successful passive perception is more like a hunch. It hints that something is off, which can warrant an active perception check to get the actual details (usually with advantage). A failure means that the character wasn't able to confirm it, so that provides some interesting role-play opportunity. This approach has solved it for us.
@leodouskyron5671
2 жыл бұрын
Did I miss something or did he seem to think that passives are available 1) to the players to choose to use 2)are available for things other then opposed tests and 3)that they are meant mostly to give the player that feeling like they did in Star Wars (I got a bad feeling about this).
@andrewsmith2880
2 жыл бұрын
I never use Passive perception. Perception checks are a key mechanic that I've used since 1st Edition. Its a useful tool in my DM box to reveal information to the player's based on how well they roll. If they fail, they don't notice anything out of the ordinary (or might find a red herring!). If they succeed marginally, I give them some hints and if they roll really well they might get additional information that a simple check would miss. I never tell them they are rolling for Perception. If they walk into a room and I say "give me a Perception check" they know there is something to find and will start looking more closely, be on their guard etc. Instead, I just say "roll a d20" it MIGHT be a perception check, it could be a saving throw or maybe I just want to see who the giant spider ambushes from the ceiling... There is always a roll. Having a high perception should NEVER mean you "automatically" find anything. If Sherlock Holmes walked into a room he wouldn't find a file taped to the underside of a desk unless he LOOKED under the desk. As a DM, you are never obligated to "give up the goods" to a player that meta maxes his Passive Perception so its is higher than any DC you could assign. ALWAYS make them roll. At the very least, have that super powered perception notice minute details that really aren't important all the time and see if they try that cheating bullshit again...
@JannesGoedbloed
9 ай бұрын
A relatively simple solution to the objections against using passive skills like perception and insight might be to simply calculate them differently. Instead of it being 10 + stuff you could calculate it as 8 + stuff. This would incentivize players to make more active checks (which adresses one of the points you make in the video) because relying on the passive check is slightly more risky with the effective -2 on passive skills. This way passive skills also do not invalidate the rogue ability reliable talent (another point you make in the video), because the rogue's 10 + stuff is higher than the passive skill at 8 + stuff. In fact, in this version of the rules a rogue with reliable talent would actually be the only one that does calculate passive skills with 10 + stuff, specifically due to that class feature. As an aside this way of calculating with an eight as a base number is not without precedent in D&D 5e, as that is also the way you calculate a spell save dc. That makes this more feasable as a house rule in my opinion. Some might call this version of passive skills a nerf of the original in the rules as written, and it most definately is, but I would say it is but a minor nerf. Players the want to build their character around their passive skills still can. I once had a level 9 pallid elf with an item giving advantage on perception checks that had a 33 passive perception and a 28 for both passive investigation and passive insight. The -2 nerf of this new version of the rules would not be a big deal for that character, while it does in my opinipn go a long way towards adressing the objections to using these passive skills that you mention in the video. So what do you think? Would you consider using this as a house rule at your table?
@fledgling9097
2 жыл бұрын
How I use passive perception... searching for hidden creatures or creatures in the distance. That's it, a way to circumvent the search action in combat to speed things up.
@davidmc8478
2 жыл бұрын
But Luke, this was a great video. Passive perception seems to me like a great idea on which the play testers feedback did not get fed back to the writers. That or it’s a solution looking for a problem. Idk. The idea for traps is to move the challenge from finding the trap to disabling it. Problem is that makes the DM have to learn a whole lot of clockwork and engineering. I think the main problem with PP is in the math: expertise is simply too high a bonus plus PP is for constant looking so it’s “take ten” but you only get one chance to look for a trap so it should be more like “take 5” . In addition, I suspect many forget to put PCs at disadvantage when looking for traps in the dark with dark vision. Don’t forget marching order, if you are at the back you can’t see the trap. The best use for PP I have found is as a DC to roll against, one can even have the trap and secret door makers roll against the players at the time the trap is encountered. And be sure to always find an excuse to put PC PP at disadvantage
@nicholascarter9158
2 жыл бұрын
The problem with these passive skills is why the active skills exist at all: if you care about exploration, the players *aren't allowed to roll*. They have to actually figure out how to explore the space. What the skills are for is *intentionally skipping this process* because you *don't* care about exploring, you *don't* want to engage in the process. You just want to move on to something else. So obviously if that's the starting point, you want a system that's as backend as possible.
@jondo4210
2 жыл бұрын
The way I do it is when a player's mini passes by something important in my dungeon, I'll tell him/her to "roll me a rando". This is just a roll that groups all those passives into one roll, and it's likely a roll that they never would've thought to even ask to do in the first place. Like walking by a completely blank wall. I feel there's always a chance they could suddenly focus real hard and see the near-invisible seam in the wall that leads to a secret room. Passives in general are crazy low and letting them roll a rondo keeps them from constantly asking me if they can roll perception every 2 minutes. Also, my group is VERY good at not meta gaming. They know better than to piss off the DM :)
@melaniesutterfield1838
2 жыл бұрын
I only use passive perception or insight to trigger a roll. so if their passive is high enough to see the hidden object (with the -modifiers for various things) then they will sense something is off and need to make a proper roll. this way if they roll one something can be blamed for the weird feeling easily as well. Sometimes people still want to metagame so I have them decide to have one character to make the roll or do a group check (when it make sense of course.)
@raebertgrayson5766
2 жыл бұрын
I generally hold that passive perception is on the level of a racial ability or the ability of certain character classes, to notice certain things (eg, an elf noticing a concealed or secret door; a paladin's ability to detect "evil intent"). Usually this is low ranked skill (for racial abilities). Now, if a character wants to search for something, a die roll is needed, which indicates an ACTIVE search. There ain't no freebies in my games...but I also let players know when their characters aught to know stuff.
Пікірлер: 545