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@TremereTT
Күн бұрын
It's not realy a "compatibility layer". proton or wine basically just provides APIs on Linux that Microsoft does provide on Windows. There is nothing being emulated, it's basically just developing the Windows C-API, the DirectX-Api &c. a second time. Thats not over head. It's just making the APIs a second time. And I have to say , while the Windows C-API is old, it's extremely well kept backwards compatible. Backwards compatible software is something that was impossible before flatpack or similar efforts. I realy think MS deserves gratitude for their housekeeping of the Windows C-Api ! It's just a pure win to have this API on Linux. Games are just apps. Why not make the same app for several systems in the same way with the same tools?
@pcallycat9043
Күн бұрын
@@TremereTT Backwards compatible software was quite possible before flatpack, but it did require installing multiple versions (ie, and older glibc) of a library, often outside of the package manager as those are designed to keep a system strictly current. The only software that is truly not backwards compatible on linux is anything relying on kernel functionality that no longer exists. One thing I do truly appreciate though, is the fact that even my old games work on linux, when they no longer function on windows (I can't even install kings quest on windoze these days, much less expect it to run)
@mdexterc2894
Күн бұрын
Made for Windows ❌ Made for Proton ✅
@Bokto1
Күн бұрын
The real horror for Microsoft: STANDARDIZED PUBLIC APIs
@imnotusingmyrealname4566
Күн бұрын
@@Bokto1Oh riight I totally forgot those, how does all this .net and directx stuff work on Linux?
@TheLukemcdaniel
Күн бұрын
A native linux game is great when it happens, but I'm perfectly content as long as nothing is done to prohibit a game from working via proton.
@Falsechicken
Күн бұрын
Native sounds nice and all but has anyone actually tried to run an unmaintained commercial Linux native game a few years after support has ended? Good luck with all those libs you are no longer gonna have or have the correct versions for. I just had to jump through hoops to get the Linux build of X3 working. Where as with Wine/Proton I can much more easily "package" the game up in a prefix that will run pretty much anywhere wine is without dependencies. I find this a much better solution that has preservation benefits. The Sims 2. Ever tried installing The Sims 2 and all it's expansions? Let me tell you there are a LOT of those. Takes a while but I have not had to reinstall it for years now. I just take the prefix with me with all the stuff preinstalled. Archive that onto my NAS and I have now preserved that for me pretty good xD. A lot of this can be solved with modern packaging formats like flatpaks and stuff but I think asking that too might be too much lol. I would really like to see an easy way to package up a wine prefix + the runtime and everything into an appimage like package that I can just run on any x86 machine.
@imnotusingmyrealname4566
Күн бұрын
@@TheLukemcdaniel Would every DRM free Windows game work?
@TheLukemcdaniel
Күн бұрын
@@Falsechicken there's crossover for that
@TheLukemcdaniel
Күн бұрын
@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 drm free is icing on the cake, yes
@ricky_pigeon
Күн бұрын
yeah like Rockstar who stopped me enjoying gta5 on steam deck.
@Peonshoes
Күн бұрын
The NES did not have a z80 CPU, it was based on the 6502.
@gardiner_bryant
Күн бұрын
I was originally going to talk about the Sega and I forgot to change the name of the CPU. I can't believe I missed that. I've been writing this script for 4 months. 🤦
@iBolski
Күн бұрын
I was going to say the same thing. When he was showing the assembler language code, I was like "that's 6502!" I should know. I taught myself 6502 machine language/assembler programming on my Apple ][. Man, I miss the days of Apple when they were all about being open about their tech. I had the Apple ][ redbook that mapped out all of the memory space of the Apple ][ system monitor/ROM, etc. I even later got a Z80 card as well for it and ran CP/M for awhile. I had the Orca Macro Assembler and the Aztec C compiler environment. The Apple ][ is what got me into programming and it's been my job every since I graduated with a degree in computer science. Still love it to this day.
@SumeaBizarro
Күн бұрын
This, not even a coder but sega thing makes sense. Tho motorola based mega drive was bigger than z80 based master system/mark3. Then again Genesis has all the same hardware and is backwards compatible
@iBolski
Күн бұрын
@@SumeaBizarro I never owned the MS, but I did purchase the Genesis when it came out and loved it! Owned both the OG NES and the Genesis system. I also then purchased the MS adapter so I could play MS games as well.
@bland9876
18 сағат бұрын
Sega? I thought the z80 was the processor used in the Game Boy am I wrong? Or were they used in both?@@gardiner_bryant
@AstraPlanetshine
19 сағат бұрын
More games working on Linux means more people will choose to Linux as a viable option. More people using Linux will mean developers will maybe, eventually, have more incentive to create native games for Linux. But before any of that happens, you have to get the numbers up, and this is how you do it, using Proton. At the very least, at the end of the day today, we can play games now, and that's pretty cool! It's certainly been cool enough to get friends and family to switch over to Linux. So I think it's been a success so far.
@bionicseaserpent
18 сағат бұрын
@@AstraPlanetshine people still won't pick Linux even if it's much more viable. Because they firmly believe windows is better even when it's clearly not the case.
@PomuLeafEveryday
4 сағат бұрын
Proton exists, why target Linux when you can remove months of porting your game. It's just unnecessary work for a small percentage of players. Just make sure your game works with Proton. Windows is still the key platform for PC players so as long as that's true, devs will target Windows.
@bloepje
Күн бұрын
I've been a linux gaming supporter since 1998... Bought any game with native linux support. Currently I can only run those games using proton. You can't run the windows version of these games on windows 11, but you can run them on proton. You can't run the linux version either. So in the end, the only ABI/API that survived is win32 on proton. Not on windows, on proton only.
@johnknight9150
Күн бұрын
Win32 has become a kind of lingua franca for software. If I want to run an old Linux package (let's say from the 2000s, for instance) then I don't even bother because the library dependencies are never going to be satisfied. I just download the win32 exe, run it through Wine, and most stuff just runs immediately. Given the focus on old games through dxvk, I'm wondering if Linux will quickly become better than Windows for old win32 software.
@DiThi
Күн бұрын
Native linux games do work at any point in time if they are compiled all statically. It is not the default for most compilers, though, so we got into this mess.
@robotron1236
Күн бұрын
Same reason I can use Microsoft Office 95 on Linux and not on windows 10/11. It’s also REALLY snappy too! I’d say it’s better than OpenOffice or FreeOffice, but the file types are too old to use for anything outside of a quick word doc.
@robotron1236
Күн бұрын
@@johnknight9150it already is better for running old Windows software.
@johnknight9150
Күн бұрын
@@DiThi Now try installing an .rpm from 1998. You are in for some pain, my friend! ;-) Honestly, I hate our stubborn reliance on the repo system -- it's as if we all decided to pretend dependency hell doesn't exist and that we've never had our package manager crap out on us, leaving a knackered system. I know Flatpaks aren't perfect, but I'm so glad we've finally started adopting 3rd party packaging. I never want to troubleshoot a package repository ever again in my life.
@XaiXago
Күн бұрын
Proton is truly a blessing and the progress needed for me to be able to switch completely to Linux. Also, I don't think we should demand anything as Linux users. At the same time, however, I hope for a future in which we no longer need Proton. In particular, for larger titles, or the most important larger engines, it should be a goal to support cross-platform standards such as Vulkan and to provide build tools that work for the different platforms with as little extra code as possible. The goal should be to develop the game in such a way that it also runs on Linux (beside Windows, XBox, etc.), rather than to port it. One more thing: I think some of the requirements for a Linux game developer are exaggerated. For example, I would like an explanation of why you need a kernel developer to release a Linux game. Does this relate to the development of anti-cheat tools? Isn't that more of a specialized discipline where even a larger developer buys tools from external sources, some of which are also available across platforms?
@phoenixrising4995
Күн бұрын
Unreal supports the Vulkan backend, we just need to convince developers to use it. It will probably happen as mobile platforms become more viable and don’t support directx natively. It’s kind of like how Linux got support for many USB class compliant audio interfaces working, due to Apple not allowing separate drivers to be made messing with the IOS images.
@DiThi
Күн бұрын
Wine is not an emulator, but it has many, MANY things that are emulated. That doesn't mean it's slow, of course, it's emulation of features that barely have an impact in performance. In some cases it even has _better_ performance under this emulation because there are some bottlenecks that may no longer be there. For example, some syscalls may be emulated with fewer calls (or none), and disk operations may be faster because the underlying file system is just better. DX11 was THE reason of the performance and compatibility problems with Wine because there was no clean way to translate it to OpenGL. While Vulkan has the common denominator features for all higher level APIs, as well as being super similar to DX12.
@phoenixrising4995
Күн бұрын
I think the bigger question than why not support Linux builds should be, why not use Vulkan instead of directx and build to proton for maximum performance? Unreal supports Vulkan and most devs can poop out a binary pretty easy. ID tech engines are Vulkan or OpenGL based as well. That’s what Linux gamers should be pushing. Also, it would make it easier for devs to port to mobile later on if they do choose.
@NGSForsaken
Күн бұрын
"Natural Selection 2" btw. is a great case study. They went all the way to a native linux build and at some point reverted to supporting linux via proton for the exact reasons you mentioned.
@Yarkhan
Күн бұрын
7:07 liking the smash button for the algorithm.
@Bokto1
Күн бұрын
So many tried to make a posix-like standard for win32, its fitting that Gabe left Microsoft and succeed at this
@johnknight9150
Күн бұрын
When Proton first came out I actually saw people saying "This will discourage people from making native Linux ports, so I'm against this." 🤦 I personally love the fact that I'm running a Windows game on a system it wasn't designed for -- it's subversive. And people are missing out on the bigger picture: Proton is slowly becoming a drop-in replacement for Windows. Don't forget, Proton can be used for more than just games. You can run any app you like through it, including regular Windows desktop apps. The NES uses a 6502, the rival Sega Master System had a Z80. :-P
@GrzesiekJedenastka
Күн бұрын
Why would you use Proton, a Wine fork for Steam, to run desktop software rather than just Wine?
@johnknight9150
Күн бұрын
@@GrzesiekJedenastka You can use both. :-) They're optimised a bit differently, so if it doesn't work in one, it might work in the other.
@PanduPoluan
Күн бұрын
@@GrzesiekJedenastkaProton is more like Wine + many other goodness. It's a superset of Wine, so to speak. It does contain a forked version of Wine, but Valve has been a good open source contributor to the upstream Wine as well.
@Syping
11 сағат бұрын
@@GrzesiekJedenastkaAny application which uses graphics APIs will run better on Proton than stock Wine (majority of times)
@glueckssilben
Күн бұрын
We need more games that use open standards like Vulkan instead of proprietary APIs like DirectX.
@PanduPoluan
Күн бұрын
The main issue with Vulkan is that it's a really low-level API. Something that takes only 10 instructions in OpenGL will take hundreds of instructions in Vulkan. That is why game engines target higher-level APIs such as OpenGL or DirectX, because it's just too painful otherwise.
@glueckssilben
Күн бұрын
@@PanduPoluan thank you very much for the insightful comment!
@Syping
11 сағат бұрын
@@PanduPoluanunless its DX12 + Vulkan is adding lot of more stuff recently what is considered more higher level
@blarghblargh
10 сағат бұрын
@@PanduPoluan DX12 and Vulkan are comparable. DirectX11 and DirectX12 are very different beasts. Vulkan also is not that painful. It just has a steeper learning curve. Which sucks for noobs, but is just fine for people who are developing production game engines.
@alexstone691
Күн бұрын
Im guessing in future arm or riscv, whstever the next architecture is, is gonna just be easily ported to using proton
@Onihikage
Сағат бұрын
Valve is in fact working on an ARM version of Proton right now, likely related to successors for the Deck and/or Index. However, I expect that will be much closer to an emulator, with the requisite performance hit, because ARM and x86 are entirely different hardware architectures. And if they're going that far, integrating an Android emulator directly into Steam, meant for playing Android games, probably isn't a stretch.
@marcinsznn
Күн бұрын
Nice that valve created proton, it made gaming easier to come into in Linux. Unfortunately some companies is aggressively including some features which are not compatible with Linux (e. g. Kernel level anticheat) and some games has broken compatibility (e.g. EA Sports wrc) or rockstar introduced easy anticheat which is compatible with Linux but rockstar broken something and don't want to fix it. Hope that MS would get third party things away from kernel. Crowd strike should be a lesson for MS.
@Artimidorus
Күн бұрын
I'd say less a lesson for Microsoft and more a lesson for everyone. First, people shouldn't have accepted Crowd Control just pushing software updates without internal testing, and everyone should have realized Kendall l kernel level security is dangerous. It never should have gotten here.
@VitisCZ
17 сағат бұрын
@@Artimidorusyou probably haven't followed the crowd strike case till the end because their patch not being tested was an early misconception. They did test the patch and it worked however Microsoft pushed their update to some component at the same time which broke the crowdstrike patch
@MadNekUA
Күн бұрын
Best bet for developers is to not block linux intentionally. With everything else community will come up itself.
@logicalfundy
17 сағат бұрын
There have also been cases where developers start out with a native Linux build, but it's so much work running two builds (Windows and Linux), that they just abandon Linux. It's better in many cases just to have a single code base and test on Proton.
@PanduPoluan
Күн бұрын
Since the games I play all have no anti cheat, I'm 100% certain that by next year Proton will be able to run every single game that I play. And that will be the time I migrate wholly to Linux, leaving Windows 10.
@MegaManNeo
Күн бұрын
I fully agree with you and given that Valve also aims to port Proton to ARM, everyone outside the Windows cosmos might benefit from it long term. Be it Linux, macOS, Android, iDevice OS or what have you. Companies that actively block Proton from working harm us more than they do good, but given how much money OEMs still make by listening to Microsoft and Jensen, I could very well see them going for similar routes. No seriously, even for Windows itself Wine/Proton is a good thing as we have seen with Intel ARC which barely ran any game initially until Intel went for the DXVK route.
@seansretroverse9082
Күн бұрын
Let's not also forget that Valve themselves recommended to game developers to NOT make native Linux ports when Steam Deck was originally announced, and instead rely on Proton for these exact reasons. Also, I have found that for some games, the native Linux build is simply not updated when the Windows version is patched. Some games have broken functionality in their Linux ports (for instance Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy), and often times cloud saves do not work between Windows and native Linux ports (i.e. Blasphemous). For both of these examples going into their Steam settings and forcing Proton (and by extension making Steam install the Windows port instead of the Linux one) actually solves both of these issues. The Windows ports are updated and patched more frequently, and are generally more stable, leading to a better user experience under Proton than native Linux builds. I can foresee perhaps a future where PC ports, as well as console ports could be written for platform agnostic APIs, and the games themselves just run as a containerized application in Windows, Linux, Mac or consoles. It seems to me like we are not too far off from that point even now.
@computernerd8157
35 минут бұрын
Valve want us tied to their eco systems that why, no other reason. I rather build a native build for Linux and one for Windows, ect, but if I was to take valves advise then I would only build for Windows and If it happenes to work with proton then it does. This is why I do not agree with the video. Yes we are a tiny miniority but I am still not going to support this future.
@RemyDelaCruz
Күн бұрын
Earlier versions of Windows were based on DOS. But after Windows NT that changed.
@FedJimSmith
Күн бұрын
but still, Windows being synonomous as "PC" platform sucks so much. But I guess proton compatibility is far more preferrable than switching to (or even dual-booting) Windows
@FrickinLaserBeams
Күн бұрын
I think there's some important information that most people miss or don't know : Proton is WINE, with Valve's patches/improvements. WINE also benefits greatly from the work others are doing to improve the compatibility layer. And WINE is an acronym for: WINE Is Not An Emulator.
@jessephillips8319
18 сағат бұрын
WINE is actually an acronym for W W W W W W W W W W W W....
@blarghblargh
10 сағат бұрын
WINE is an acronym for "The difference is academic, and most end users don't really care even a little bit. Especially people who just want to play their games". It is definitely worth pointing out that Proton is a WINE project tho and Valve didn't do it single-handedly. Though they really did push the project forward hard. And while I'm regularly harsh on giving Valve too much unqualified praise, they deserve a good amount of praise for that work.
@FrickinLaserBeams
9 сағат бұрын
@@blarghblargh Agree on all points so have an updoot. I wasn't denigrating Valve at all, by the way. I just thought it important to remember WINE as being the instigator of all this; without WINE ever happening, Proton wouldn't exist, or exist in some other form perhaps.
@FrickinLaserBeams
9 сағат бұрын
@@jessephillips8319 Self-referencing acronyms are fun ;)
@NFvidoJagg2
Күн бұрын
Proton is in effect Xwayland of pc gaming.
@phoenixrising4995
Күн бұрын
Well It’s looking like Proton 10 might be native Wayland. No xwayland and be will be built against sdl3
@NFvidoJagg2
Күн бұрын
@@phoenixrising4995 What I'm referring to is that proton is the stop gap measure to get everyone onboard. But because of the path of least resistance. There is a danger of becoming the go to default.
@gardiner_bryant
Күн бұрын
If people don't understand Proton, there's a high probably they have no idea what Wayland (or X) is. Haha
@phoenixrising4995
23 сағат бұрын
@@gardiner_bryant they won’t care, it’s not that developers don’t know how, it’s more about reducing expenses. Why maintain 2 build when you can maintain 1. This is why Vulkan needs more of a push instead of Linux native builds.
@NFvidoJagg2
23 сағат бұрын
@@gardiner_bryant This is true. However I couldn't, not see the parallels between the two.
@lewisholmes9526
19 сағат бұрын
Hey Gardiner, Big fan of everything Proton has done for Linux and completely with you on that. I did watch a video the other day from The Linux Experiment. Nick mentioned about how Microsoft could potentially block Proton or make changes to render it useless if they decided to. Never thought about it like that or even if they could but would love to hear your thoughts on it.
@Fender178
17 сағат бұрын
I have seen games where they both had a native Linux and Windows versions and the Linux version would lag behind the Windows version in terms of DLC and other in game content and the devs ended up ditching the Linux version in the end.
@TheCalifornianeskimo
Күн бұрын
Yo your homestar runner at the beginning there was pretty damned good
@edison3571
Күн бұрын
As a Linux user, I hope developers start to get on board with gaming. Proton and Steam have made great strides in Linux gaming and it is greatly appreciated by Linux users. I hope there is a day when I will not have to check for compatibility before I purchase a game.
@eldaria
Күн бұрын
Fun thing is that, some Windows games will work on current Linux versions, but not on Current Windows versions since proton only translates into an API it can translate to any older windows edition that was once translated.
@deadeye1982a
Күн бұрын
The problem with native Linux Games is, that the market share is very low. For developers, it's easier to target Windows and support other OS via Proton (Wine).
@GutoGerbase
19 сағат бұрын
Hey, thanks for posting this video; very insightful and interesting
@destructodisk9074
Күн бұрын
I mostly game on Mac. Steam hardware survey doesn't account for this as the survey fails to detect the hardware then using CrossOver, so the 1.29% on Steam Survey is definitely misleading, as most Mac gamers are on CrossOver or Game Porting Toolkit or Parallels (CrossOver is the biggest by far, it is essentially our SteamOS with Proton). Anyway there are a lot of us out there, and there are a lot of people on Linux and there are folks on ChromeOS. There is potentially a future of smartphone users. So yes I think rather than trying to get developers to spend money on smaller platforms of which there are many, we should be asking them to just make their games use as many common standards as possible so translation layers are more compatible. We can all benefit from this including the devs, which won't be throwing money down a pit. This can lead to a future where Linux is more dominant or Mac gaming sees more adoption, and then at that point it will make sense for developers to pursue native games on those platforms.
@mskiptr
Күн бұрын
Frankly, since games are usually proprietary anyway, it doesn't matter really whether they are speaking win32 or X11. (Native Wayland ones could have some advantages tho…)
@gruntaxeman3740
4 сағат бұрын
Game developers are just incompetent. It isn't big effort to set up new build chain to build and test native binaries. Higher level API found from game engines and libraries is anyway identical on every platform. Game developers don't write any code against Win32 or X11.
@stexes007
Күн бұрын
Nice Video this is very informative for everyone who's got some ambition to make the switch to Linux. I've already made a comment somewhere on reddit about the topic and IMO just let devs make games for windows by default. I don't care if on Linux we are going to use compatibility layers forever. It just works perfectly in so many cases. Portproton and UMU is there for us to make use of Proton outside of Steam. it's quite a ride with Linux with a power user mindset, but for any normal user getting windows games to launch so easily with Proton is outstanding and just tells the long tale of how easy Linux Gaming is. ex.: SH2 Remake just came out. I'm on Mint 22 so I don't even have the latest Nvidia driver. I didn't even think about if it's going to run. Turns out it runs perfectly. but it has to be said NOTHING is perfect Linux Gaming still has it's short comings and might not be for everyone to thinker around when something just doesn't work OOB. So while Linux has it's own set of issues and is not always perfect, neither is Windows.
@flamingscar5263
14 сағат бұрын
Proton is significantly better for 1 key reason, collaboration A perfect compatible layer has 0 issues not found on windows, this means if a game on linux has issues not found on windows, it can be fixed within proton itself or the game itself This means not only can the devs fix issues, but Valve and the Linux community can to With Linux native builds, it's solely in the devs to fix issues, and why would we choose that option? Linux is entirely built on the idea of working together
@mateoconk
20 сағат бұрын
One of your best videos yet.
@Burgo361
16 сағат бұрын
Proton works fine and means we don't have to convince every dev to care about linux and works on old games seems like a win for everybody to me
@NGSForsaken
Күн бұрын
I think the best solution would be a common runtime (like steam kind of provides already) that is supported on all operating systems. But we all know how well industries like adopting a universal standard :/
@keit99
Күн бұрын
Yup it would just be Yet another Standard that only 5 peiple or so use 😂
@danfg7215
20 сағат бұрын
Talos Principle 2 developers stated they offer no support for Linux, and the game runs perfectly with Proton. I played the whole game including DLC, amazing performance, zero complaints here.
@KyleLoiselle
22 сағат бұрын
Fantastic video Gardiner! Loved all the effort in the visuals, it really shines through!
@mariofanl1ve
Күн бұрын
Well you learn something new everyday. I thought I knew what a compatibility layer is, but apparently I did not. All I knew was that it wasn't emulation.
@russjr08
13 сағат бұрын
This is such a fantastic breakdown of how Proton and WINE work! My job is in technical support so I'm used to breaking down concepts into a more digestible format, but this was certainly better than if I'd tried to explain how Proton works. I will definitely be saving this video for when I come across someone who wants to know more about Proton (or has a misunderstanding of how it works, such as the examples from the beginning of your video) - my only regret is that I don't have too many people in my circles who are interested in this stuff (but I do have some friends who'll let me go on about it anyways because they know it makes me happy 😅).
@davidste60
Күн бұрын
"I believe it will soon be the baseline for PC gaming as a whole". Why?
@tealtraveler
17 сағат бұрын
One benefit we've already seen from investing into Proton is the fact that Intel uses Proton to translate any DirectX 9 games into Vulkan on their Arc graphics cards. Proton is a boon to Intel because otherwise they would either have to tell people that Arc GPUs can't run DirectX 9 games at all, or they would have had to push back the release of their graphics cards to spend many months on implementing a custom driver that would not compete well with the established Nvidia or AMD drivers. Parts of the industry are already seeing how useful Proton is and this will only increase overtime. If game developers and/or driver developers create with Proton in mind, it would actually increase greatly the potential user base for all games. And if aiming for proton compatibility requires little to no extra effort, why wouldn't become the baseline over time?
@davidste60
8 сағат бұрын
@@tealtraveler Because it translates between APIs, which are the real baselines, in only one direction. It only helps the OS that is by far in the minority for gaming use (
@eternia-reginleif
Күн бұрын
The problem with compatibility layer is, it is kinda tricky to run online game with anti cheat software.
@zoox3732
Күн бұрын
This is caused by a complete denial of compatibility from the anti-cheat system itself, not from some difficulty in translating the instructions. When you eliminate the need for compatibility layer, like with emulation, often the anti-cheat will /still/ disallow you from playing. "Why," you may ask? Idk... But many anti-cheats /do/ allow compatibility layers like Wine because of how noisy the Linux community can be, it's just that that support is disabled for undisclosed security reasons for games like Fortnite (Tim Sweeney is my favorite example) or that other popular one that I forgot
@chaddesrosiers1107
Күн бұрын
That is because games are allowing game companies to hook into their kernels. Gamers need to start rejecting companies and games that insist on this unsafe practice. More gamers need to refuse to play games with these types of anti cheat. Frankly you can't be sure the companies making those games or the companies making the anti cheat components aren't browsing your drives or worse. Its interesting that basically all the anti cheat companies that use these methods are founded/staffed by Ex Black hat types. If a game wants kernel level access... don't play it.
@elbuglione
Күн бұрын
The best Online games of today have a Native Linux support. Indeed.. everyone is talking about the next big online title: Deadlock
@lophilip
12 сағат бұрын
diablo 4 anticheat works with proton!
@blarghblargh
10 сағат бұрын
sure, but what good games use those? last one I can think of was doom eternal, and they got rid of it if I recall
@asphalt2554
Күн бұрын
7:06 Like that smash button
@Eagledelta3
Күн бұрын
So, what you're saying is that Proton is an API..... that is what it's doing. It's an API for running windows games on Linux. Which by definition all APIs are "Native". Proton IS Native.
@martinh4982
Күн бұрын
Nice summary. I'm not sure how a compatibility layer can become a baseline, however. It's not something you program to, it's something that translates code you've programmed for.
@gardiner_bryant
Күн бұрын
I mean Windows is going to die and Linux will become the standard OS. But game devs won't end up learning Linux.
@elbuglione
Күн бұрын
you have to understand this: Linux offer better performance in games... but devs dont know how to "develop for Linux" (is not that hard... but they are just "not good"). Proton offers a perfect solution "out of the box" who don't demand big compromises of resources and mach (even surpases) the mediocre results of natives Windows games. This is good enough for users to stop using that crappy OS (sadly get worse day by day) and switching 100% to Linux. In a future (interesting not far), competition will push devs to reach the best performance ... and everyone here knows Linux offers that
@martinh4982
Күн бұрын
@@elbuglione And yet most Devs don't seem to have a problem releasing games for FreeBSD, albeit Sony's fork of it. Makes me think it's more of a case of whatever middleware they're using not targeting Linux. But given there are so many Linux distros, I wonder if it's possible to make the games work on each and every one of them.
@elbuglione
Күн бұрын
@@martinh4982 yes, they has....indeed in PS3 era, SONY has a major problem to reach devs. Nowadays, devs only port on Playstation because its has a second biggest platform in the world. the problem of "distro choice" is problem close to been resolved... we have to wait what will do VALVe with full release of SteamOS or will make a mayor flip to ArchLinux.
@phoenixrising4995
Күн бұрын
You could convince people to use Vulkan instead of Direct X and the translation is effectively native and you get a perfectly working Windows build.
@thingsiplay
Күн бұрын
Overall an excellent video explaining what all this is. WINE - W ine I s N ot an E mulator I wonder if WINE started as WIN dows E mulator. :D And later changed the name. I mention this, because Proton includes WINE.
@blarghblargh
10 сағат бұрын
it might not have ever officially been that, but the similarity of the acronym is definitely intentional
@thingsiplay
10 сағат бұрын
@@blarghblargh Maybe I wasn't that wrong. Today I read somewhere that WINE was about to get sued by Microsoft, if this is correct. And then changed the meaning of the acronym.
@Zeptic1
23 сағат бұрын
Thank you for this video, it was incredibly helpful.
@peterjansen4826
Күн бұрын
It is not really about Proton, Proton just uses wine and dxvk. wine comes from an external company, dxvk is a fusion of d9vk and dxvk, these were projects which were started by teens to just play their particular game(s), at first, then eventually it got pretty complicated and Valve offered to hire them and put extra developers on it to support these guys. Both dxvk and wine translate functions from Windows (in the case of wine dll=>so) to functions which we have on Linux (so and Vulkan) so that we get the same output for the same inputs. Proton just uses these tools and adds to that some scripting to make sure that everything is intalled what you need (like C# libraries) and that certain files are created, because some games need additional files on your winedrive (an example is The Witcher2, it won't start without certain files in your 'Windows' user-Documents path. Simple enough for Valve, the tricky part is to work it out for thousands of games, that took a lot of time.
@Alex_whatever
Күн бұрын
I wouldn't say "Proton uses WINE" I would say, "Proton IS WINE" because it is Valve's fork of WINE. As in, they are the same thing but with Valve's tweaks and additions mixed in. When you install Steam on Linux, you do not need to also install WINE separately nor is one a dependency of the other. Edit: Also, Proton-GE is also WINE but with Valve's AND GloriousEggroll's tweaks and additions.
@peterjansen4826
Күн бұрын
@@Alex_whatever Fair point but it also uses dxvk and has some additional scriptiing, right? It is more like Lutris in that sense but with Valve's fork from wine and dxvk all contained in one directory (name it a container if you like). I tried out Proton-GE multiple times when I was not happy with the result from the regular version, for me so far it never made a difference. However, in general (I have played Deadlock though) I play older games (I wait for a lower baseprice, good discount and all DLC's included), for newer games it probably makes more difference.
@StevenNatiello
22 сағат бұрын
Thank you for this video! Coming more from the business/consumer side of tech, this answered a lot of questions that I've had for a while. It's not often a video gets a rewatch, but this will be one. Liked, subbed, and soon to be: a dudelings player.
@Goodmanperson55
14 сағат бұрын
The better long term plan is for a slow switch-over where it isn't Linux that needs a compat layer, but it's gonna be Windows that needs a compat layer for Linux
@gruntaxeman3740
4 сағат бұрын
No need to. Game engines have the layer and they take care lower level. Game developers just fail to do basics.
@Agent_Banana11
Күн бұрын
Soon Android is coming to Proton and Proton is coming to ARM. It's game over.
@Sjoerd1993
Күн бұрын
? ? And then what, we can play Clash of Kings on our Linux devices? Don't get me wrong, it's good to extend support to ARM and even support Android. But it won't be a game-changer, and doesn't solve any of the fundamental issues that exist right now with Proton. Which is mostly related to kernel-level anti-cheat, which won't be solved by any compatibility layer no matter how powerful it may be.
@blaze595
Күн бұрын
@@Sjoerd1993 Having Proton on ARM is specifically a big deal for is for laptops and portable gaming pcs (steam deck, ROG Ally, etc). Being able to build them with ARM processors means you would get SIGNIFICANTLY better performance per watt; meaning better temps and a lot longer battery life.
@ericbarlow6772
Күн бұрын
@@blaze595true and Microsoft is working on Windows for ARM based processors.
@robotron1236
Күн бұрын
I can't wait for ARM desktops/servers. ARM is the future of ALL computers, not just mobile devices. Also, running windows software/games with Proton (yes you can do it with Proton, it's called protonhax I think) on a pi would be pretty awesome!
@uis246
Күн бұрын
... Proton can only emulate windows. It was designed to emulate ONLY windowns. Emulation of Android works completely differently from Windows.
@SunevDNA
Күн бұрын
Loved that homestar runner voice
@crazymonkeyVII
Күн бұрын
Thank you for spending some time on this. I fully agree with you. I game exclusively on Linux, and my old gaming rig is competing with (and sometimes exceeding) the performance of my friend's much beefier gaming rig. I find that most games that work, work as well or better than on Windows. The anti-cheat thingy is extremely annoying (but not of huge significance for me). I accept having to use Proton, but no Tux no bucks!
@joshuathomasbird
Күн бұрын
in order to use the map you need to use a map; thats *at least* an extra pointer lookup.
@zoox3732
Күн бұрын
The performance impact is so incredibly negligible when you think about the logic that went behind the system deciding to make the call (if blah then check arguments for validity and maybe CALL with 1 -> all Wine has to do is see CALL and do MYCALL with 1). Besides, more heavy systems like the rendering system are not only boosted by Vulkan, but the lookups in question are put into the CPU/GPU's memory (as they do on every OS), negating that already negligible performance cost
@thebard328
9 сағат бұрын
What an excellent video! It's so well explained. Concerning the native ports, it's more nuances than that. Steam survey report more Linux uses than Mac OS. But there are many games with a MacOS version but not a Linux versions like Baldur's Gate 3. And MacOS is, like Linux, very different from Windows. It's not only a matter of users, but image. MacOS is Apple, people want to support Apple because Apple has a good image while Linux is still perceived as a weird thing not meant for gaming. In addition, games with a native version tend to have a better Proton support. A game that is designed to be cross platform generally don't use uncommon Windows API so there are more chance that it is supported by Proton. Proton is not windows, it's still a new target developers have to actively support by having a dedicated QA chain. Of course it is much simpler than having to make a Linux port, but it still deserve some attention, like one of the many different versions of Windows
@UnlockedANDunleashed
Күн бұрын
Share the video? I'm gonna archive it bro this is really good
@blast_processing6577
14 сағат бұрын
In light of the N64 decompilation/recompilation work that's been done, would it be possible to create tools to decompile games (and applications) for specific operating systems -- such as Windows XP or OS X Lion, etc. -- and recompile them for x86-64 or ARM Linux? With another shift in the dominant CPU architecture on the horizon, it seems like decompilation/recompilation would be ideal, especially considering it gives more flexibility for tweaking/modding the code or even just using (or combining) parts of it.
@qabsal
Күн бұрын
So it’s translating mulitple windows protocols. Edit: and its better with vulkan
@marble_wraith
18 сағат бұрын
Rather then linux only games, i'd prefer if we had a company / platform which supported the scenario of preservation beyond supported lifetime... the antithesis of Nintendo if you will. So for example it could state in the license terms: When purchasing any title for this platform from a vendor you agree to a limited license agreement to not modify or redistribute source (with whatever provisions for DLC's). The license period can be undefined at the time of purchase ie. up to the game studio to announce its expiration, ideally when the game itself isn't going to receive any more "official support". After the license period has expired the conditions also expire ie. people can create 3rd party workarounds / services to keep these (now legacy) games running as intended to be experienced by the original developers. This also covers emulation and enhancements to a degree (texture packs, etc.)
@thegreengator71
19 сағат бұрын
Thanks for the explanation.
@seansretroverse9082
Күн бұрын
Not gonna lie, the Homestar Runner voice at the beginning made me snicker out loud
@Jelly2003
12 сағат бұрын
I agree that Proton is great, and really isn’t an emulator, and really has been a boon for Linux gaming. Proton could position itself as a target set of APIs for building an operating system agnostic games, however there would be no way that Microsoft (or Apple) would care less about keeping their feature set and APIs proton compatible. As you mentioned we already have huge hurdles with kernel level anti-cheat (which honestly should be outright banned anyway). My concern with Proton is that it makes Linux gaming into a house of cards ready to come tumbling down if something were to happen to Proton. All it would take would be MS implementing a feature in a new revision of Direct X that Proton can’t handle (perhaps that might be legal hurdle, or some kind of fundamental technology that Linux can't use). But yeah, you’re dead right that there isn’t really any other way right now, with user base, developer familiarity, and the challenges of targeting Linux. Good video overall I did learn a little. That said, I also want to be a little nit picky about a couple of things that bothered me: 1) The NES uses the “Ricoh 2A03” CPU a 6502 variant, not the Z80, you really should have researched that better considering how long you spent talking about it. 2) Windows is no longer based on DOS and there hasn’t been a DOS based Windows in 24 years. Modern Windows is based on the NT kernel, which is also OLD, released in 1993, however, Linux is also OLD, released in 1991. Both kernels have been modernised over time.
@kohiek
13 сағат бұрын
Proton is the only reason I considered a Steam Deck, and the Steam Deck is really making me question if I want to another version of Windows after 10.
@billysherman2702
14 сағат бұрын
You sounded just like HomeStar Runner for a moment there.
@ContraWars
Күн бұрын
The 6502 vs z80 flame wars have been stoked. Somewhere, somebody is building a nerd gulag for you to mine the metals necessary to create new 8bit processors.
@ewomer100
3 сағат бұрын
Native would be nice, but the overhead cost from developing multiple platforms lowers your chances of getting a port. Proton opens up the possibility of playing games on Linux that we normally couldn't. The point we need to get to is where developers actively support games on Proton.
@yetitheeduardo
15 сағат бұрын
This is why I'm excited for the retroid pocket 5
@grayfaux_
16 сағат бұрын
As a game developer myself, this thumbnail made me so angry because people actually think this way. Proton is one of the most important resources that has been developed in the last 10 years. Right up there with with FSR.
@tohur
21 сағат бұрын
TBH I prefer proton over native.. native games end up being dependency HELL as the port ages... Just saying as I have alot native games but play the proton versions because majority of them do not work or work as well as the game in proton even when they work
@bloepje
Күн бұрын
The biggest problem is that there are bugs in the games which only make the game crash on Linux. And hence another application specific bug workaround is added to wine. But that is what makes wine better than windows.
@_M_643
Күн бұрын
If the game has been made for Windows, then crashing on Linux is not an application specific bug. Wine making a specific workaround for it is compatibility.
@davidrenton
Күн бұрын
Wine and Windows are not comparable Wine is a drink , made from Grapes Windows are a hole usually in a wall , with glass most of the time, to allow light in and out Wine is better than Windows to get Drunk., but Wine is useless to see what is outside. oh wait you talking about Software, fair enough
@PanduPoluan
Күн бұрын
An extra pointer lookup is just several CPU cycles. With 1 GHz clock speed, that's in the order of nanoseconds, not even microseconds, much less milliseconds. Basically it's so negligible it won't affect performance.
@552jacki3
7 сағат бұрын
Proton does have overhead sometimes. You know what has more overhead tho? Windows.
@Xankill3r
13 сағат бұрын
I've been playing a lot of games on my Linux machine including many that have very few reports on ProtonDB - or at least very few recent reports. In my experience Proton is definitely the way to go with quite a few old native builds now broken either partially or completely. There are games that work overall but certain input methods are not longer functional, games that just refuse to launch, etc. I work in the games industry and I don't know if people outside the industry realize this or not but basically no one wants to support games for a decade or more unless they are making decent revenue over that period. And also not everyone is in a state to be able to provide that sort of support since companies can and do go bankrupt fairly regularly. Perhaps a GOG like entity focused on Linux (maybe GOG themselves?) could solve this problem of compatibility of older titles. But unless that happens native builds are definitely good in the few years following a launch but will end up becoming very quickly outdated as time goes on.
@Dunestorm333
22 сағат бұрын
Windows being based on DOS isn't entirely true. Windows NT is a very different system to DOS, it has an entirely different kernel and may as well be a different OS all together. Although Windows 2000 and 98 look very similar on the surface, underneath they are entirely different. NT had to provide a compatibility layer to DOS early on for user adoption; so stuff like the drive letters and filesystem structure were made the same for compatibility’s sake. In any case though, modern UNIX-like systems are still vastly better designed than Windows NT 🙂
@mix3k818
Күн бұрын
Chances are I'll be using Godot, so native Linux ports it is from me!
@Cappsy
Күн бұрын
Superb summary
@paherbst524
14 сағат бұрын
Game devs shouldn't port to Linux in the same way that when I need to program something in Windows I use cygwin.
@nexusanphans3813
13 сағат бұрын
Hey, at least I'm just demanding, not enforcing or anything. What is the point of being a customer if I am not allowed to demand something? Customer demanding is one thing, the developers actually deciding on it is another. It's not a rude thing for a customer to ask for what they want in a product.
@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece
Күн бұрын
Games that work in the first place would be a big step. Most things not running under Proton also barely work under Windows. One of my favorite examples is Warcraft 3 and Warcraft 3 Refunded Edition One of them works, and still runs in vanilla wine. The other is a broken mess barely held together by duct tape. When we play it we first make sure no one is playing reforged graphics because the list of bugs is too big too address. You basically never now what will even be displayed or just crash the game.
@pcallycat9043
Күн бұрын
Great video, and on point. (other than the z80 in a nintendo bit lol). Until we have a big enough market share to be a profitable market share, the most we can ask for it to play nice with proton, or vulkan. I am hoping that with the fragmenting of hardware (arm based machines are chipping away at the x86 market) that studios will start to play nicer with translation layers to begin with, as I think the gaming ecosystem as a whole is about to see fragmentation that is close to what we used to have before pc clones consolidated the pc gaming architecture. The thing about ARM solutions, when everyone can make their own chip, everyone can make their own implementation... it's gonna get messy. All that said, a shout out to the WINE project (which proton relies heavily upon), Valve, and all the studios that play nice with our translation layers so we can game and not run windoze.
@AleksandrPodyachev
Күн бұрын
Honestly, the closest we can get is a wasm based runtime similar to JVM based games
@joshuathomasbird
Күн бұрын
homestarrunner is that your???
@gardiner_bryant
Күн бұрын
Great jeorb
@chaddesrosiers1107
Күн бұрын
Game aimed at Proton -> Works on x86 Works on Arm Works on windows Works on Linux Works on Android Works on ARM Windows Works on MacOS? (Ok maybe maybe no on that one). Make Proton the master race... Gaming FreeBSD distros.... why not. Proton is how game developers escape all OS jails without having to recompile, tweak, optimize or even support OS level stuffs. Imagine console ports... that aren't ports at all.
@05Matz
10 сағат бұрын
If people didn't use features specific to an OS, and used their game engine's cross-platform features correctly (present on ALL popular modern game engines other than niche/internal stuff), building for Linux would be as easy as checking an additional box in their editor. However, most studios have gotten themselves into technical debt, with plugins, frameworks, and other existing code that is built specifically for Windows, making the cross-platform game engine they started out with Windows-only again. I frankly am extremely annoyed that you shame people for asking for native builds -- I think it's premature to ask for them NOW, but I want first-class native builds too -- I just know that it will take time (likely decades) for the industry to transition to the point where all studios are both using platform-independent engines (most indies already do, having limited choices outside the typical Unity/Unreal/Godot trifecta, which AFAIK DO all offer first-class Linux support) and, more critically, are using those engines in a platform-independent way without Windows-specific plugins or legacy code.
@peterjansen4826
Күн бұрын
It should be emphaszed (to avoid misunderstandings) that the regular user can also directly interface with both the kernel and the hardware by using systemcalls (kernel) and for example assembly (CPU). Practically speaking most regular users don't do that because it is much easier to just use API's and systemlibraries, let those do the heavy lifting but if you want to explore how it all works then you want to play with that. Withn emulation you simulate the hartdware in software, your real hardware has to do a lot of extra work to pretend to run on that simulated hardware. You can't understand this without studying some CPU-architecture. wine and dxvk simply translate instructions from one set of libraries to another. For example, the instruction could be to solve a quadratic equation, on both Linux and Windows we have functions avaialble which will do that for us, wine could then simply figure out which functions on Linux should be used to get the same result as what Windows does. That is pretty easy to understand for anybody who has learned a tiny bit of programming.
@WhatAboutZoidberg
Күн бұрын
PINE - Proton is not an emulator 🙂
@bland9876
18 сағат бұрын
So if a game uses Vulcan then it pretty much almost already is native is what it sounds like
@bionicseaserpent
18 сағат бұрын
No. It's just easier for proton to run it because it's the same API on both operating systems. Also a good note is that Vulkan enabled systems are by far not as Ubiquitous as DirectX systems. Because DirectX is from the mid 90s and only GTX 600 series/ HD 7000 series and up have Vulkan support.
@gardiner_bryant
16 сағат бұрын
It depends on what you mean by "native" Native to your CPU architecture, yes. Native to Linux, no. Does the second one matter? I don't think so. Haha
@bland9876
13 сағат бұрын
@@gardiner_bryant I meant that it sounds like as a developer if you were to use Vulcan th in getting your game working with proton would be a lot easier than if you're using DirectX
@bland9876
12 сағат бұрын
@@bionicseaserpent GTX 600 series that sounds extremely old I remember getting a 960 in 2016 and if I remember correctly a knew card number comes out every 2 years so 600 series would be way older
@blarghblargh
10 сағат бұрын
@@bland9876 proton often "just works". there isn't necessarily that much extra work to get a DX game working on proton. but yeah, vulkan is more likely to be that state by default. there are APIs to figure out you're running on deck and do hardware specific things like pick the right UI scale etc. But that isn't unique to proton. It'd be true on a phone too.
@dustys5512
15 сағат бұрын
I heard that Homestar Runner reference there.
@ZebofZebYT
23 сағат бұрын
With Java and OpenJDK, I only needed to make 1 change for my Linux window system to correctly setup my window. Idk if that is universal across Linux(I have Mint).
@azurarobo
9 сағат бұрын
11:59 - make sure to like that smash button
@nonetrix3066
11 сағат бұрын
Is Vulkan really faster than DirectX? They seem about on par tbh, I think games that support both it's similar story
@JalapenoPrime
Күн бұрын
Linux is great, but I will admit, there are some games with my 5600 that I will get over 200 FPS on Windows and on Linux I barely get 80fps.
@blarghblargh
11 сағат бұрын
Pretty good video. "Vulkan is usually far more performant than DirectX in like-for-like calls" There's a can of worms inside that statement. That may be somewhat true for DX11. But DX12 is another beast entirely, and is kinda-sorta at the same level as Vulkan. At least, that's my understanding. I have used DX11 (and OGL) and I'm learning Vulkan now. But I haven't used DX12 yet. Some other reasons game devs might avoid bothering with Linux is that Linux isn't a single distribution, and getting games to work cross-distro requires weird (steam specific) container shims in your build system, that just aren't required to build for Windows. And (as mentioned in the video) while the user base is double the % they used to be, they still aren't going to bring enough revenue to justify the engineering cost and ongoing maintenance and bug-fixing. And proton is already working darn well, now. The main developers of a game have to basically love Linux and primarily focus on it. The market share doesn't really justify the focus on its own. If your game runs well on Linux and doesn't run well on Windows, your game is gonna bomb hard. So most devs will suck it up and develop on Windows, because then they can dogfood their game for years on the platform the vast majority of their players will be using.
@NiclasHorn
17 сағат бұрын
to put it simply, i want dev´s to make game´s and programs for Linux, without layers on layers in emulators for MS C+ code and so on. so even if proton is good, i sitll dont want it. i want dev´s to make it for US! 20 years ago, i would happily tinker to emulate Windows on my Fedora OS. But i am old now, i dont want to tinker anymore. and most of all, i want to leave MS. only reason i run Win11 today is Vegas Pro, and Helldivers 2. Games breaks with every update. i dont want to tinker every update anymore...
@Markkreuzz
16 сағат бұрын
The problem with developing native Linux games is that Linux is so fragmented. And at this time there are a lot of problems with X migration, Wayland etc. and Wayland adoption is moving like molasses. You also have to deal with dependency hell and package breakage and that is different with each distro which would be a nightmare for support. Unless there is something like flatpak for games. Game devs would rather target proton compatibility right now.
@kolz4ever1980
Күн бұрын
Nah, it won't ever be ther base line for gaming when more and more companies are making sure linux gaming is not supported like with gta 5 even after 11 years. Good luck with gta 6 ever running on that.. lol.. Until that ever happens which it won't then linux gaming is just an ok thing while possible
@matthiasbendewald1803
Күн бұрын
Never say never. And while this anecdote about GTA is true, it is Just one Game. If you Look at the Other thousands of Games the Overall Situation is quite amazing already. Gaming on Linux is a Thing now, thats new and only slowly growing; but its growth Continues, Performance is on Par with Windows already and continuing to get better. Similar for compatibility. And the anti Cheat Problem will at some Point vanish as soon as enough people have switched.
@Yukeake
23 сағат бұрын
WINE (and Proton which is based on it) are crutches. Very useful crutches, but crutches nonetheless. Would I rather be able to run a game under Proton than not run it at all? Of course. Would I prefer a native linux build, supported at the same level (IE: patched at the same time, kept up to the same standard as the Windows version, supported just as well as the Windows version)? Of course. Do those things add up to an additional support cost to the publisher? Probably (unless they hire folks who are well-versed in both sides, who would likely cost more). Do I think that's worthwhile? Of course. Unless linux is natively supported, at the same level as Windows, it'll always be a second-class citizen. But, for now, Proton is doing a good job of being the crutch that makes more folks *able* to switch away from Windows, which is nothing but a good thing. Hopefully as MS puts their foot further and further into their users nether regions, forcing more and more ads and siphoning more and more data, more will make that switch. And, if enough make that switch *maybe* we can get native support eventually. That should be the goal, anyway.
@mrtuk4282
Күн бұрын
Economics make Linux game development a massive headache for devs, so PROTON is the best way forward at the moment due to the different size in userbase of Windows users vs Linux users. So as long as MS doesn't deliberately try to block Linux gaming within Windows then PROTON will continue to be Linux users best option, once Linux gains enough userbase then they will want to sort out the anti-cheat themselves so we just need to increase our numbers :)
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