Yep! All that unnecessary JavaScript and CSS will now be transmitted and cost Reddit even more money.
@wilsonwilson137
Жыл бұрын
I'm all for it honestly.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
Well they will implement anti scrapping techniques.
@valhalla_dev
Жыл бұрын
@@sampatkalyan3103 from someone who worked on circumventing anti-scraping techniques for years, there are tons of ways around just about any anti-scraping technique. There's a point where it becomes more costly, either computationally or financially, but it's incredibly doable.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@valhalla_dev well what will you do about rate limiters.
@PS3PCDJ
Жыл бұрын
All big companies are speedrunning their downfall nowadays
@Noam-Bahar
Жыл бұрын
Good
@PS3PCDJ
Жыл бұрын
@@Noam-Bahar Indeed
@meltygear5955
Жыл бұрын
@Joey Not really. They just see themselves as "too popular and big to fail". Example: Microsoft.
@bren.r
Жыл бұрын
@@meltygear5955 example: Apple
@SigmaGrindset-vg4oh
Жыл бұрын
If anything, I'd LOVE to see Microsoft and Apple crash and burn.
@dickheadrecs
Жыл бұрын
tom has a secret endpoint that can download an entire subreddit in pure JDSL
@dominick253
Жыл бұрын
Genius!!!
@Jake2500-mg5nm
Жыл бұрын
Sure, but it doesn’t support Reddit comments yet.
@fuzzy-02
Жыл бұрын
Lmfao. Tom is such a genius that when he went over to fix a problem at Reddit's he left a few backdoord. They are undetectable too brcause they are in JDSL
@TehG3cko
Жыл бұрын
He is such a virtuoso
@brymstoner
Жыл бұрын
i was an earlybird investor in that, too... when tom came into the conference room and pitched jdsl as the solution, honestly, not an unblown mind in the house!
@dan-frank
Жыл бұрын
It was brought up towards the end of the video, but one of the big reasons why the shutting down of 3rd party apps is so disliked is because the official app and website is so poor and so difficult to use. 3rd party apps can only really exist because Reddit's official app sucks so much
@karama300video
Жыл бұрын
+ the tracking
@Kubamorlo
Жыл бұрын
the app is so bad it is slower than the website, despite what reddit claims and is extremely unreliable
@jabadahut50
Жыл бұрын
"Why doesn't Reddit buy apollo?" if Reddit cared about user experience, their craptastic UX would have been worked on a LONG time ago. As for the fair percentage, I've always been of the opinion that you need to charge enough that 60% of your income covers your costs, 10% can be put into an emergency fund, 20% can go into your training and investment funds, and 10% can go towards profit. Obviously, shareholders would never agree to that but *shrugs*
@BanAaron
Жыл бұрын
Reddit didn't even develop the current official app lol. They bought out Alien Blue. At this point I feel like Reddit simply doesn't have mobile app developers to support or update their app. They just bought out another company and used their tech and have now lost the knowledge to improve upon it.
@-_____-
Жыл бұрын
I think buying Apollo makes sense. You get 1.5 million active users on iOS, and iOS users are worth a lot of $$$ when it comes to advertising. If it really costs Reddit 20 million dollars to run Apollo, then you can assign a few engineers to work on optimizing the app to reduce costs and earn back the acquisition cost. I think Reddit lacks vision here and are choosing the easy option to rush an IPO.
@Kubamorlo
Жыл бұрын
we just need employee and customer representation on company boards
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@Kubamorlo it is business not a community.
@slowjocrow6451
Жыл бұрын
Blackmail!
@joaooliveirarocha
Жыл бұрын
0.24$ per 1K API call is what I would expect for something like GPT 4. Not a website like reddit were the content is entirely created by their users.
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
Makes equal sense for Reddit imo because Reddit is paying for hosting all this data and their data costs increase constantly over time. People need to remember that in all cases where you don't pay for access to content that's because the platforms are earning money from showing you ads instead, but Reddit's case is even worse because apps like Apollo give you access to their content whilst completely sidestepping their ad-sales meaning Reddit is just a charity at that point paying like suckers to host content that anyone can just leech off and create their own apps with And i've seen a lot of things in development but never saw anyone offer to create and maintain an API to just serve large amounts of data to third parties to make money off of without expecting anything in return
@Fishpizza1212
Жыл бұрын
@@liquidsnake6879 Brother, Apollo literally laid it out. Reddit earns $0.12 per user per month in revenue. The API charge to Apollo will be $2.50 per user per month, more than 20 times what they make on their own. That's $20M per year for Apollo. Those same users, if on reddit's own mobile app, would only earn them $1M per year. How does it make any sense to charge this much, if they just want to recoup their 'lost' revenue? It would make sense to charge Apollo maybe $0.13 per user per month, make their revenue back plus some extra. Reddit still makes money from Reddit premium and awards too in that scenario. The 20X charge is to put 3rd party apps out of business completely. But doing that makes no business sense when they would only make $1M more per year (if all Apollo users switched back) when they make $400M per year themselves. Yes, $1M is not $0. But Spez forgets that the way Spez is doing this will affect individual's choices. They will either not use the official reddit or only use reddit with adblockers out of spite, therefore not generating Reddit any additional revenue. Spez would be better off focusing energy into optimizing reddit's overhead costs (like server farms and networking) or making more revenue with better ad deals. A single good ad deal would make more money per year than all the 3rd party apps combined. It's really just ego, greed, and stupidity.
@muffinhydra
Жыл бұрын
@@Fishpizza1212 exactly. The make 0,12 per user per month. and he then compares it to his own cost. That doesn't make any sense as it gives no indication about the cost per user for reddit. If reddit get 0.12 cents per user per month in reveneue but pays 3$ per user per month then this entire thing blows up fast. The apollo creator compares apples and potatoes.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@Fishpizza1212 it should not matter how much they make these hey have the right to charge the money for the user based on the cost required to make those api calls plus some. They are not running a non-profit organisation. Where others rip reddit freely.
@normalmighty
Жыл бұрын
@@sampatkalyan3103 They have the right, sure. Nobody is calling for a lawsuit. That doesn't mean it's not a really shitty thing to do and extremely hostile to the users.
@PeterWhite-w2e
Жыл бұрын
I've known reddit don't give a crap about their users for years due to their mobile browsing "experience". They do everything possible to make the mobile browsing experience impossible to use to push you into using the app (infinite load times, no mature content, "it looks better in the app" popovers constantly). When I use reddit on my phone I literally click the "desktop browsing" setting to get the normal website and just zoom it in.
@complexity5545
Жыл бұрын
That reddit app is a battery drainer. I hate it. It alerts me with ringtones in the middle of the night. I'm uninstalling it tomorrow.
@BlurryBit
Жыл бұрын
A query is one hit... could be 100 posts... could be 1 post (comments thread for example).
@steelazuredragon
Жыл бұрын
the issue with the reddit API is also that they never implemented a way to access the reddit ads. so 3rd party apps were ad free. they simply could have changed the terms of service so 3rd party apps have to show reddit ads (or pay to remove ads). but for years they allowed 3rd party apps to incure costs on reddit but not contribute to revenue. even if 3rd party apps would have wanted to show reddit's ads they couldn't even do so because the API didn't support it. (all afaik, I only began to read about the whole issue due to the current situation)
@NapanTR
Жыл бұрын
Reddit does suck sometimes: lame opinions, false facts, astroturfing, scripted videos, bots, ads, etc. But it has so many interesting stuff and different points of view and experiences shared that it makes up for it. But I'm all for moving to another place more transparent and less corporate.
@wadecodez
Жыл бұрын
well most programmers have a reddit clone laying around
@isodoubIet
Жыл бұрын
I'd be willing to forgive reddit if they hadn't built a back door into the website for spreading all kinds of bs without challenge or accountability.
@Danthrax66
Жыл бұрын
Reddit's API policies are disjointed from the reality that the API calls from apollo are all user driven, not apollo willingly calling the reddit api to farm data which is the entire justification reddit gave for implementing the price policy. Reddit going for an IPO is the real issue here, they should have shifted to a wikipedia based funding model which would have aligned with the community they developed early on when they actually had good people running the site (RIP Aaron)... The greedy path they took is really going to ruin what could have been a much better site.
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
Apollo didn't even talk to Reddit, they just made a moral stand that Reddit charging anything for it's API is unreasonable and they'd be shutting down as a result. Apollo's POV is unreasonable, Reddit's is reasonable, Reddit is the platform hosting the content, it's the one paying for it to remain hosted on the internet, Apollo pays nothing and gets to drive traffic away from Reddit's apps? I mean for Apollo that's a sweet deal, just sucks for Reddit.
@fauge7
Жыл бұрын
@@liquidsnake6879 you clearly did got follow the author's posts. He was on weekly calls with the reddit team about it. 350 calls per person is normal. What Reddit is talking about is Microsoft and Google farming them for chat gpt models
@rapjul
Жыл бұрын
@@liquidsnake6879 Apollo’s developer has had extensive conversations with Reddit for years; Reddit has given the developer a heads up if minor changes were happening that would impact his app. His issues are the pricing (it’s too high) and timeline to implement the changes (way too quick), NOT that he will have to pay.
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
@@fauge7 350 calls per person, PER MINUTE is normal? If the problem was just GPT models then you could make the restriction 500 calls per minute as that is well beyond what any real app or person can do and can only be performed by automated systems. But i don't believe this is the only problem even if Reddit doesn't admit it, they have a problem with people redirecting users away from their site and re-rendering their content elsewhere without their ads being shown, it directly harms Reddit's revenue streams
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@rapjul he can make his own infrastructure. I don't know why he is complaining.
@draxxion
Жыл бұрын
Grocery stores mark up is not 50-70%. Most stores are like 15-22%, pre-amazon whole foods or other nice places might do 40% at the highest. And that's just revenue. Profit margins are even thinner.
@aCoreyJ
Жыл бұрын
An added complexity though is that all of the content that Reddit has that it is making that 12 cents per user on is user generated, with a lot of it coming from third party apps that have much better tools for managing posts
@dickscodinggoods
Жыл бұрын
So happy Prime made a video on the Reddit blackout so I can have an opinion on it
@ThePrimeTimeagen
Жыл бұрын
You are welcome npc
@8koi245
Жыл бұрын
the article is pretty good tho
@jeal5022
Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrimeTimeagenlmao
@this_rishi
Жыл бұрын
Lol
@avi7278
Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrimeTimeagenI'm glad you commented so I can reply to you saying "lol" and now I have entered your consciousness and will forever merge with your existence. Please confirm.
@Ataraxia_Atom
Жыл бұрын
Companies need to constantly increase profits, and once they meet that market saturation they start doing weird stuff like this and shoot themselves in the foot. Kinda like Netflix cracking down on password sharing
@ThePrimeTimeagen
Жыл бұрын
It's definitely nothing to do with Netflix. Cracking down on passwords. The amount of fraud and sharing of accounts is not very appropriate. I understand that there is appropriate uses, but there's also a lot of inappropriate uses. Plus virtually no other streaming service allows this. Netflix allowed it for a decade longer than pretty much everyone else.
@Ataraxia_Atom
Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrimeTimeagen we share all of our other passwords, Disney+, Hulu , HBO, Amazon... But i think it's fairly equal comparison, Netflix had met market saturation and wants to continue to grow.
@Ataraxia_Atom
Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrimeTimeagen I don't think Reddit is wrong here either, but charging substantially more than what they would make is definitely a lil weird
@johnyewtube2286
Жыл бұрын
Prime is an engineer at Netflix, by the way, the conflict of interest on these matters is obvious. Hopefully changes like this encourage people to sail the high seas.
@ReviloYaj
Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrimeTimeagen sorry to say this but they are the same thing. Just because you work for one company doesn't make them immune from greed. No other company is implementing as much crack down as Netflix, but they will all follow suit.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
they are charging same as what OpenAI GPT-3.5 charges for the use of their API.
@mskiptr
Жыл бұрын
Isn't fetching a bunch of comments way cheaper than running a gigantic language model several times?
@Eric-vh4qg
Жыл бұрын
@@mskiptr it really depends on how many services are being joined together to get all the data for users > communities > posts > comments, and cyclical complexity of those systems working together to formulate an optimized response. I also don't think that api fees should be based solely on the computational costs. Reddit paid to build these backends and should be able to charge whatever they want to recuperate these costs and even profit. GPT is awesome and worth the cost imo, but reddit is also awesome and accessing the vast amount of data they have collected is also worth the cost. If you can't justify their costs then third parties need to rethink their business models. Piggy backing off a successful company to reduce your own costs then complaining when that free ride goes away is pretty immature.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@mskiptr yeah
@isodoubIet
Жыл бұрын
@@Eric-vh4qg "it really depends on how many services are being joined together" If your simple database retrieve operation costs as much computationally as running a multi-gigabyte language model on enterprise gpus, maybe you don't deserve to be paid after all.
@Eric-vh4qg
Жыл бұрын
@@isodoubIet compiling the dataset into a language model is the expensive part, running it for it to guess the next word is cheap. I think you are overestimating how much compute goes into a llm response, which also highly depends on how many layers of transformers a language model is applying to any given prompt. GPT4 uses a lot of layers to get semantic themes for the prompt, but a single layer isn't that expensive. There are LLMs you can run on your local machine now. You are also underestimating how complex queries become when you are working with big data and have to split the data up between multiple services.
@Tresla
Жыл бұрын
Apollo just needs to make it so requests are made with users' own client ids. 100 free requests per minute is more than enough.
@davak72
Жыл бұрын
My thought exactly!!
@fauge7
Жыл бұрын
That's per api key, each app is given 1 client id...
@rapjul
Жыл бұрын
@@fauge7 Each user would have to get their own API Key from Reddit, that’s what they mean
@bobthemunk
Жыл бұрын
I don't even think it's API key related if the documentation and posts are to be believed. The API is OAuth authenticated, so logging in with those credentials is all that's required. That should let the Apollo client make requests on behalf of that user which would fall well within the limits if their ~370 per *day* number is to be believed.
@davak72
Жыл бұрын
@@fauge7 They said per OAuth login, not API key. This would obviously affect Apollo users who don’t log into their own account (Apollo would need to start requiring users to log in), but I would think it should work? But if that was really the case, I imagine third party apps would just let users log in. I don’t know. I suspect there is an API key limit that isn’t disclosed
@catcatcatcatcatcatcatcatcatca
Жыл бұрын
We could have had peer-to-peer internet, where content is hosted by users, replicated by other users, and queries were resolved through peer-networking. Sure it would cause some delays between messages and some resources would not be reliably available, but then we wouldn’t have some corporation counting how much they should charge another company for accessing a post you created, because you would either host it yourself or distribute it to peers in some community, who would host it. This would not work for a site like twitch or youtube, but for reddit it seems very possible.
@danielsan901998
Жыл бұрын
Free APIs are reduced server cost, if they don't offer it web scraping will increase wasting even more compute and transfer data.
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
Tbh people who scrape and re-host Reddit's data should be immediately sued for it for various reasons, one of them being that the users who posted it didn't give you permission to re-host their content elsewhere.
@karama300video
Жыл бұрын
@@liquidsnake6879 Their content is not copyrighted. By that logic Reddit should pay me for all the "content" I posted there.
@Fishpizza1212
Жыл бұрын
@@karama300video Reddit needs to be reminded that their whole business model is based on user generated content and links to other websites content. Reddit makes money off of other website's content this way. They don't have to pay for it.
@davak72
Жыл бұрын
@@karama300video By creating an account, you agreed to Reddit’s terms of service… so you provided Reddit permission to use your content for free, but not any scraper who rehosts it
@rj7250a
Жыл бұрын
@@davak72 Reddit terms days that you can not scrap their website? Probably not, even if it was true, it is not enforceable, scrapring bots are very hard to detect.
@Scymet
Жыл бұрын
None of this would be a problem if their UX wasn't crappy...
@rippa6114
Жыл бұрын
This is the real take.
@peter8261
Жыл бұрын
Lol watching him fumble around with the google search trying to get the calculator. It's nice to know Prime is human like the rest of us.
@roostertechchan
Жыл бұрын
The problem was he left spaces between digits and *
@wilsonwilson137
Жыл бұрын
The "I don't care" dance at the end was hilarious.
@muffinhydra
Жыл бұрын
Wait the estimate in the In the Apollo post doesn't make sense. All he does, is calculating the revenue per user and equating that to the cost per user on Apollo, two competently different metrics. If reddit's cost per user is at for example 3$ per month this entire thing just explodes.
@susbedoo
Жыл бұрын
"Will Reddit be the Budlight of the tech world? Watch this on the next level of Dragon Ball Z"
@phobosmoon4643
Жыл бұрын
big problem is they are charging moderators to moderate. No moderator mods with the reddit app.
@LillyAnarkitty
Жыл бұрын
Another angle of this that's really important is that Reddit's official app is not ADA compliant and not usable for many people with disabilities. Also, their mod tools are shit so third-party apps are basically relied on by: 1. disabled people; 2. moderators; and 3. power users. So basically these apps did Reddit's job for them and provided a lot of value to the platform that Reddit was too incompetent or stubborn to do themselves. Even now after all the outrage and closing down the third party apps they have refused to introduce any accessibility or moderation tools. Even if these apps were marginally affecting ad revenue, they made Reddit a healthier platform and a better experience for everyone. They provided access to many people who are unable or unwilling to use Reddit via its official app. This move by Reddit exemplifies they way that they ignore and devalue the contributions that the community freely provides to their company, primarily in the form of labor from sub moderators. Reddit would be nothing without its community yet it continually goes out of its way to piss them off for the sake of consolidating control.
@distant6606
Жыл бұрын
It really sucks for the apollo guy, just like it sucked for the covid layoffs. You just wake up one day and you lose your job. And in this case, because of corporate greed.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
he built business on really poor foundations. what did he expect the Api calls would be forever free. it is his fault.
@ruukinen
Жыл бұрын
@@sampatkalyan3103 A more reasonable take is that he expected the api calls would have a reasonable cost when they do become paid for. 20x markup isn't really reasonable.
@distant6606
Жыл бұрын
@@sampatkalyan3103 👆
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
@@ruukinen Reddit's costs are reasonable, 1000 requests a minute for 24 cents is not wild. And note that for you to spend a LOT on this you need to sustain this rate of requesting for a long time, most Reddit users aren't furiously clicking 1000 articles a minute (not even sure Apollo could request, get and render them that quickly lol), 100 in a minute is a reasonable free tier. There's many ways Apollo could handle this, they could establish a clock to make users wait a few seconds between switching articles, they might just put a banner telling the user how many free calls they have left, because ultimately the users are logged in with their own oAuth, you might have to MAKE users login with their own oAuth to use Apollo but there's ways to keep Apollo around, another idea is they could reach some agreement with Reddit to serve Reddit's ads on Apollo.. but they're not interested in figuring anything out, it's a moral decision to take it down in hopes that the backlash will force Reddit to revert the decision which they shouldn't. Reddit's side is not unreasonable and Apollo's devs aren't rushing to host large APIs at their own personal expense that others are using to make money in their place, nobody is because we tend to not be dumb, and you can call them greedy and i'd challenge your own greed expecting to be paid in exchange for every hour you spend in the office at work
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
@@ruukinen their API, their wish. And What was he thinking lol. That he can suck business from reddit using their own infrastructure that they built and taking their consumers from the one who made the infrastructure.
@NickWindham
Жыл бұрын
They could charge like contractors typically wish to do. Triple the cost of materials. For Reddit, materials would be their AWS cost. That might roughly makes 1/3 AWS cost, 1/3 labor cost of devs/customer support/billing, and 1/3 profit. Maybe quadruple the AWS cost just to make sure it’s plenty for Reddit. That would still be an affordable and fair price win win for all parties. The question is, how much is Reddit’s AWS cost. That I don’t know, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and say extreme worst case it’s $0.02 per 1,000 requests. So, price it at $0.08 per 1,000 requests and call it a major win for revenue instead of pricing it so ridiculously that you lose users from 3rd party apps
@gorilla-san
Жыл бұрын
I don't know about reddit, but I realized that changing speed to 1.5x on ThePrimeTime videos makes them 10x more fun to watch
@Anon.G
Жыл бұрын
2x only and it's still too slow
@sakuyarules
Жыл бұрын
My favorite part was the discussion about how many requests apollo uses compared to reddit (What if it's 1000x?), when it's explained 2 paragraphs or so down from where he paused reading.
@uthred-l9i
Жыл бұрын
Lots of people have already moved to the federated alternatives (Lemmy and kbin). Even some large subreddits mods (rust, piracy, privacy guides) are considering moving their subreddits to a Lemmy server. Also some large reddit apps are considering supporting Lemmy in the future (e.g. redreader)
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
problem with such alternatives is that they're split over various servers and so their data is not concentrated, so you lose out to Reddit on the sheer amount of content available, even if your federated alternatives were popular they'd still be less appealing than Reddit due to not having as much content
@uthred-l9i
Жыл бұрын
@@liquidsnake6879 The point of federation is that you can view content across servers. All new social media platforms have less content to start off with. Federated social media has some advantages that makes it attractive for mods/admins and users: - The admins own the server, not some other (usually corporate) entity. - Users can access content across different servers. A user signed up to server A can access content on server B. This mean they can move servers without loosing access to much of the content they are used to.
@lunafoxfire
Жыл бұрын
@@uthred-l9i Federated social media will never work at mass scale as it is, because there is too much friction to get started. People want to click a sign up button and go, but on a federated network you have to put effort into finding the right server and researching if it is actually connected to servers and topics that you care about, and put effort into curating your experience by somehow finding and subscribing to people and topics distributed across many servers. 99% of people aren't going to make it through that process -- imagine your 70 year old grandma trying to navigate that. What we need is something architected like Tor where the network talks to a central authority so that every server agrees on the state of the network. Any other way is crazy and provides a terrible UX. That's right btw -- Tor isn't fully distributed, because it would be impossible to use if it was. Imagine that.
@Rikonardo
Жыл бұрын
@@lunafoxfire for 99% of people, creating an account on an "official" node maintained by developers would be enough. Those nodes are already federated with all other thematic nodes an average person would care about. Also, apps work better than websites for federated social media, as following links on the web you won't end up on another node's frontend where you aren't logged in, because your account in on a different node. Federated social media have big potential, but first we need to change the way we browse the web. And popularization of phones with mobile apps already did us a great favor
@lunafoxfire
Жыл бұрын
@@Rikonardo yeah I agree that the best way to use a decentralized service is to find the most centralized server. wait a sec
@robertdeckard2136
Жыл бұрын
7:26 This is why I have a keybind to show and hide a python interpreter for all my math needs.
@ivailopetrov2827
Жыл бұрын
i just type calc in google
@robertdeckard2136
Жыл бұрын
@@ivailopetrov2827 Yeah, that works too.
@DF-wl8nj
Жыл бұрын
Re: pricing, it would make sense to choose a price based on average user influx through the app, since while presumably there’s some number X of users who only use the app, there’s some other number Y of users who start using Reddit because it’s accessible on mobile. So it would probably be something like 0.12/user at the base API rate, multiplied by X/X+Y, i.e., the API rate times the relative percentage of lost users compared to total users on the app. Although alternatively you could just use a flat $0.12 usd at the base API usage rate and pocket the extra user count as profit.
@dd3715
Жыл бұрын
This is probably because of AI advent. Some companies probably started to use their API for extracting large scale conversation scenarios, that could use in training LLMs.
@PepsiMaxVanilla
Жыл бұрын
people with a custom reddit app probably do make way more money for reddit though, like WAY more. like probably the average active user just occasionally searches on google and finds a reddit post or posts his question on reddit or something, he probably doesnt see nearly as much ads
@josegabrielgruber
Жыл бұрын
I feel sorry for Aaron Hillel Swartz
@fuzzy-02
Жыл бұрын
I never saw a single reddit ad. Then I realized, when Iheard of this hot mess, that Ads are per location and my country have no ads at all lol
@ZeeshanAli-nk3xk
Жыл бұрын
lol
@ZeeshanAli-nk3xk
Жыл бұрын
quite an interesting place where you live. So where are you from brother?
@seannewell397
Жыл бұрын
I hit that like button, I did know what to do. Hi twitch.
@foji-video
Жыл бұрын
also it's 2.50 before considering the apple tax (+30%) and other actual taxes. It's probably closer to 3.5/4 per month if you have to charge the user
@dreadsocialistroberts
Жыл бұрын
Spez lying about Apollo threatening Reddit is hilarious because Spez is the guy who used to edit other users' comments and write comments under mod names
@MrSquishles
Жыл бұрын
phone users don't have adblock, they're quick short engagements they're probably the most profitable users. and spez just pissed all the ones on apple hardware with apple hardware pockets off.
@levifig
Жыл бұрын
I'd absolutely pay $1/mo for Reddit if it allowed me to keep using Apollo… Heck, even $2! That's way more than they'll ever get from me directly, that's for sure!
@Dominik356
Жыл бұрын
When reddit says they earn 12 cents per user, that probably includes users of 3rd party apps. Most users are probably not exclusively on that app either. And they also probably sell user data, which is generated regardless of the client app. And earning X is not profit. There are expenses too. Reddit does not need to pay for 3rd party app development. Something that increases reddit's value. What I want to say is there is a lot of speculation.
@Fishpizza1212
Жыл бұрын
Yes, buying Apollo and other 3rd party apps would be the smart thing to do. Another even better thing to do would be to set up another API the 3rd party apps use to serve reddit ads the same way reddit does, and reddit keeps the money. That would solve this problem completely as reddit would not lose any revenue. Reddit could also incorporate that into their ad service for marketers, so they could specifically target ads for mobile and iphone users. Overall this would make reddit a better experience for everyone, including reddit, as all the hard work of developing and maintain mobile apps would be outsourced for them for free, essentially, reducing their overhead, and making them more profitable to future investors in their IPO. On the other hand, an IPO for reddit makes absolutely zero sense. Reddit does not have an explosive growth business model that would benefit from a huge cash injection. Reddit does not have a business model like say a factory, where they make revenue based on how many widgets they produce. In a factory's business model, if they got a huge cash injection, they could spend it on capital investments like a second factory, produce twice as much widgets, and take home twice the revenue. Reddit does not have anything like that. If they got $10B tomorrow, there is nothing they could spend that on that would double their revenue. Reddit does not "produce" anything. The most they could do is try to reduce overhead by building their own server farms to save on AWS costs. Reddit already has 400-500 million monthly active users and subreddits in nearly every language, and is the 10th most visited website in the world, so they have reached near saturation in the user market. They could try to increase the ad revenue per user, but their site is already inundated with ads. Every 5th post is a paid ad and they ads on the side. The biggest reason reddit would fail to increase revenue is that's reddit's business model is entirely predicated on user generated content. If the users decide one day to stop posting on their site, their site is doomed. This is what happened to digg in 2010. Digg was a reddit competitor back then, but Digg did something really stupid one day, and their users just left the site for places like reddit. This can and would happen to reddit too in 2023. The protest and reddit blackout is a message to Spez and the other reddit co-founders that reddit is dependent on their users, not the other way around. Many commentators say that a 48 hour blackout is not enough as reddit could just wait it out. I say its not about it. It's about sending the message that users are in control and if they can do it once, they can do it again. Spez and others will monitor the traffic in that 48 hours and see how much traffic they lose and how much ad revenue they lose. If they have any sense, it will scare the shit out of them and remind them what happened to Digg 13 years ago. Spez has been notoriously stubborn and up his own ass ever since he took over after his fellow co-founder Aaron Swartz died in 2013. Aaron Swartz technical skills (He literally made RSS and the Creative Commons License) and philosophy made reddit the site it is today (Reddit is largely the exact same site as it was in 2013). The only things Spez has done in the mean time is try and try to squeeze the golden goose that lays the golden egg. And make a crappy redesign that made it easier for advertisers. If Aaron was still alive, reddit would be a much better place, and just as successful. He would have reduced reddit's overhead by using his technical skills to setup their own server farms, getting off AWS, and optimizing storage and networking costs (think Discord switching to Go and a better Database). Aaron would have kept the greedy venture capitalist vultures away and only take money from good hearted people like Steve Wozniak. In all estimation, Spez is trying desperately to IPO Reddit so he and the other execs can sell their shares and cash out, so he can be a billionaire.
@PanosPitsi
Жыл бұрын
They could remarket them selves to appeal to normal people
@tejasahluwalia8713
Жыл бұрын
I don't think you can calculate by revenue lost, because not all users would use reddit if 3rd party apps weren't available. So its too optimistic (for reddit) to say that *all* Apollo users are users who are not using the official app.
@forbiddenera
Жыл бұрын
This is supposed to screw AI scraping but 110 requests a minute is still free data but makes it impossible for any 3rd party apps that have more than like a few hundred concurrent users
@LaughingOrange
Жыл бұрын
In my mind realistic pricing would be 0.5-1.5x expected revenue for a regular user, depending on how important third-party apps are to the platform.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
their product their wish.
@the_faminist
Жыл бұрын
The whole thing sounds ridiculous IMO. Apollo should only be charge for value added queries - otherwise you're charging based on whether they access reddit through a browser or a native app. Guess what? It's still the same user accessing the same data, they just don't like reddit's GUI for some reason or other. Now if Apollo is making its own money off ads, it's not showing reddit's ads or it's doing additional queries beyond a normal browser, then fine - ask for a cut of that or require them to embed reddit's ads as well - otherwise you're essentially discriminating based on browser. I could be totally wrong about how Apollo works as I know nothing about it, but if it is what I think it is, it it should be treated as just another kind of browser unless it's doing something different.
@Jmcgee1125
Жыл бұрын
31:22 the EA "pride and accomplishment" post is at -668k. Next lowest is -89k from a guy who literally asked for downvotes.
@tsoprano4891
Жыл бұрын
@theprimetime Prime. Look. I am personally going to comment on every single video you have from here on out until you get a voice acting gig. You have a top tier voice and I need to hear you in something. It’s set in stone my brotha
@thewizard7078
10 ай бұрын
Why not charge by data amount ? Just charge by output bandwidth .. If the app is badly made it's only their problem and I feel like it's a much better way to charge an API client.
@NickSteffen
Жыл бұрын
I think the craziest part about this whole thing is that it seems like a significant portion of Reddit mods need this app to moderate. By charging for API calls they are effectively charging unpaid mods to do work for them.
@liquidsnake6879
Жыл бұрын
I was wondering why Apollo can't just spawn oauth users for each of their individual users and keep them within the free tier or offset the costs over to them (they probably already do this by authenticating their users to Reddit through their respective oauths), but looking at the app i can see why that's unlikely to work as their users would likely quickly exceed the free tier, it's 370 requests per day on AVERAGE but that's probably some people who regularly use it probably greatly exceed this and others don't use Apollo every day, so it averages to 370 requests daily per user and it's unclear how concentrated these requests are You could still do it but you'd be at a clear disadvantage against the normal Reddit app. It sucks because Reddit's explanation is also sensible and it's a problem for them to be getting leeched off of by other applications driving traffic away from them whilst consuming their data which they're the ones paying to host. Though i simpatize with the Apollo dev, i simpatize more with Reddit's POV, and would tell the Apollo dev that it's a bad business idea for your product to be basically a re-skin that relies on someone else's internals in order to work.
@ilearncode7365
Жыл бұрын
They should keep apollo up, and just plug in their own backend and have a reddit competitor
@liqo12
Жыл бұрын
why not cache the reddit data, rather than every client makes api calls, all clients quries the cache, and the cache minimizes calls to reddit
@demmidemmi
Жыл бұрын
Prime earns his MBA in 37 minutes.
@FalcoGer
Жыл бұрын
So an average reddit user generates 12 cents of revenue and makes about 350 requests per day. The break even point would be 12 cents for 350 requests then, or (12/350) * 1000 = 34.29ct/1000 requests. Make it 35 for simplicity. Then you have to maintain an API and have a team to develop that based on your customers' (those who use your API) feedback and provide support and documentation for them, so that's a bit of extra cost. You also want to make some money, so 40ct for 1000 requests seems reasonable. So you would pay reddit slightly more than what they'd get from one of their users that they don't get because they use your product now. In turn you get profit from your users now, or maybe not, depending on how you deal with them. Given that your users all use an apple product (proving that they are rich and don't care about customer service quality), you can probably charge them $50/month to use your app. Of course if the 12 cents aren't per the 350 requests but for 350*30 requests per month, then the price would go down by a factor of 30, so about 1.33 cents / 1000 requests
@20dareason09
Жыл бұрын
You know you are a front end dev when you use the search bar as a calculator.
@joel30466
Жыл бұрын
If the problem is that 3rd party apps do not show ads, just serve the ads through the api and force 3rd party apps to show them, problem fixed.
@TheFelipe10848
Жыл бұрын
How could you possibly do that? You can't really tell what the 3rd party app will do with the result of the requests it makes, can you? 3rd party app could potentially just not render the ads at all, since it will only use the information it wants from the request.
@shahidshahmeer
Жыл бұрын
@@TheFelipe10848 Reddit could implement a credit system for their API. When a 3rd party app displays a Reddit ad (as verified by API requests to Reddit's ad server), it gains credits. These credits can be used to "buy" API request bandwidth.
@TheFelipe10848
Жыл бұрын
@@shahidshahmeerWhat I'm more in doubt about is the "force 3rd party apps to show them" part of OPs comment. I don't know how it would be done, though there is probably a way to do this for sure, no way these ad companies would pay sites without making sure, right? Just need to learn more about ad services in general I guess
@joel30466
Жыл бұрын
@@TheFelipe10848 You could simply revoke their api access, some apps might still slip through the cracks, but they wouldn't lose much revenue over these apps anyway, for the big apps like Apollo it would be pretty obvious if they don't comply
@isodoubIet
Жыл бұрын
@@TheFelipe10848 They could make it part of the terms of service for using the api. There are more solutions available than just technological.
@BeamMonsterZeus
Жыл бұрын
Reddit has a hate and moderation problem. I want nothing more than to see it fix itself or for it to burn rapidly to the ground.
@Bolpat
Жыл бұрын
All-parties consent rules are evil. Even with one-party consent rule, they can’t publish sensitive data, that’s still illegal. And if you ask “but what if they don’t get caught?”, well, you already asserted they don’t get caught; if one party breaks the law and isn’t found, does it matter practically they broke broke the law harder? What a one-party consent rule allows is for a small fish to have leverage against a big fish if the big fish tried to screw the small fish over.
@Ataraxia_Atom
Жыл бұрын
Buying apollo costs money, when they could instead charge them for existing. Come on man
@analisamelojete1966
Жыл бұрын
Why Apollo doesn’t shut down the app while he sets up pmts?
@DTQC
10 ай бұрын
"I live in a one party state (Canada) therefore I can record" This is wrong. If one of the parties live in an all party consent state then the conversation needs all the parties to consent. Don't how this applies with Canada tho.
@filiformis
Жыл бұрын
Does Prime have a PO box so I can send him a physical calculator he can keep on his desk?
@ghosthunter0950
Жыл бұрын
I completely disagree with prime that it should be done on lost revenue. it should absolutely be done on costs. Firstly an Apollo user is NOT a lost reddit app user, this is a fallacy, and it's very obvious when you think about users with disabilities using better third party apps, besides a lot of users despise the reddit app so they use a browser which likely has adblockers or just stop using reddit altogether but with a decent third party app they're just gonna use the app. secondly why are you expecting a third party app to make MORE money in revenue than reddit does per API call? in what world is that realistic. doing it based on cost is what's most sensible.
@alliso1240
Жыл бұрын
Imagine if you had to speak to reddit mods as part of your job.
@XTeaOrCrumpetsX
Жыл бұрын
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Apollo’s profit math looks incorrect. He’s calculating net profit, which is not the full cost of hosting a user. Wouldn’t you need gross profit here? That would include the cost of storing/transferring data and management. Reddit still pays for all of this for 3rd party apps.
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
Yeah Apollo is just being salty.
@AntiCookieMonster
Жыл бұрын
"Mastodongs"?😮 Gives me flashback to donglegate. Do you think Prim would apologise?
@ThePrimeTimeagen
Жыл бұрын
No I will not apologize to Mastodongs
@velox__
Жыл бұрын
This IPO surely will go well & be beneficial to the company (clueless)
@chocolate4212
Жыл бұрын
Mastodon is much better than Twitter and provokes healthier conversations
@hatkidchan_
Жыл бұрын
what's that image on 11:24 💀
@dominick253
Жыл бұрын
This is exactly what I predicted. People upload their data to AI and get paid for it. Eventually it will be a system where anyone can upload data to the AI and get paid based on its use. For example if you create a new mathematical proof that does some amazing thing and the AI uses it constantly then you would be paid according to that data.
@Nick_fb
Жыл бұрын
creating a new mathematical proof has commercial applications that pay much, much better than ChatGPT will pay you. it's pennies on the dollars to give your discovery to a parrot bot.
@mechwarrior83
Жыл бұрын
Even if Reddit wanted to charge $5 a month a user, I would understand. However there is a bigger picture at play here. Reddit, as a platform, has been sliding for years now, in terms of censorship and general mod wankyness. This was exemplified by how the whole API pricing matter was handled by the admins. Rather than treat the 3rd party dev as a cash cow that extends your revenue, they were given a "fuck you" price; the price you give when you don't want to say no but you don't want to do the work either. For me honestly, Reddit could do an about turn tomorrow and spez would issue a personal apology but too bitter a taste has been left in my mouth to ever go back.
@sck3570
Жыл бұрын
WHAT IS THIS @ BEFORE MY NAME, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE KZitem?
@okharev8114
Жыл бұрын
im in the 10%
@dermuschelschluerfer
Жыл бұрын
Dont understand what the issue with the pricing is. Instead of providing access to all users, users of moderation tools can just get their own api access? Just implement a setting into the application? I think the main problem is inexperienced non professional developers doing these apps. Most of your work as a professional is about cost and engineering based on what the user and budget allows. If every user would just pay 25$/Month he would have an ok business running and could still use the api. Or reddit users getting their own api credentails and setting them in the settings for free and paying directly to reddit.
@wadecodez
Жыл бұрын
Why doesn't Apollo charge a monthly fee for users?
@mannycalavera121
Жыл бұрын
More than 2 per sec is fine for non commercial entitys
@dev_insights101
Жыл бұрын
love the blackout
@MantasJurkuvenas
Жыл бұрын
Listen to the audio.. in the link Apollo guy was not threatening.
@khps9176
Жыл бұрын
I read on wikipeida that Apollo was "thretened" by huffman blackmailing for 10m, and the verge as "source". It doesent make any sense as they are reddit users. Why threaten someone about users that are already yours?
@Necessarius
Жыл бұрын
23:41 👌
@iamnickdavis
Жыл бұрын
How is the costs not app agnostic and not user login based. Don't give the app the ability to remove ads unless there account is a premium acct. Reddit gets all the money except for people who buy the app on the app store.
@noahg2
Жыл бұрын
This might sound dumb but can't reddit CEO fire the current app developers and hire the third party app developers who built Apollo so that they could implement all the best features from all the third party app into one official app? I'm thinking this would be a win - win scenario.
@cbazxy2697
Жыл бұрын
I guess it about valuation not features of the app. Higher the valuation the better when they go public
@everytimeifall
Жыл бұрын
So this guy built Apollo almost by himself. I think it will be much easier to buy the app than to negotiate a deal with the Apollo owner for him to work for the Reddit. But again, Reddit does not want to make any deals
@Iceman259
Жыл бұрын
Apparently they did try to hire the Apollo dev a few years back
@ruukinen
Жыл бұрын
Not all reddit users think apollo is the better app. Or not betterer enough to use instead of the reddit app. Those users might be dumb but it's their prerogative to think that. You can never satisfy everyone with just one app which is why third party apps usually exist. Getting rid of the existing reddit app and replacing it entirely with the apollo app would anger those that liked the reddit app, even if it is mind boggling that such people exist. There is no catch-all solution that can be achieved with just one app.
@meltygear5955
Жыл бұрын
@@ruukinen "Not all reddit users think apollo is the better app. Or not betterer enough to use instead of the reddit app" I mean if you enjoy seeing your app opening 3 times slower and get hit by ads every other infinite scroll then their definition of "better" is too absurd for me to bother.
@dzisonline
Жыл бұрын
Why would Apollo quit before seeing what the market would bear? Save reddit results to your own DB, use your own API's, offer paid access to those who want real-time updates and at least see how it goes before quitting.
@Aranarth78
Жыл бұрын
So, what are good reddit alternatives ? I mostly use it for gaming communities, as there's more freedom there than official Discord servers. And it's easier to search / filter.
@mskiptr
Жыл бұрын
There's the Fediverse. So Lemmy and Kbin instances
@macgyverswissarmykni
Жыл бұрын
Prime, don't you know about qalculate! ? (No, that's not an interrobang, the ! is part of the name...)
@timurrte5694
Жыл бұрын
It's just better to charge money for using API than selling your data as Discord....
@SArthur221
Жыл бұрын
sounds like the guy has a slander case against reddit
@cholst1
Жыл бұрын
literally all of reddits value is generated by its users, they just wanted to squeeze a bit more out of them. Also, lol, charging the user for creating the content that is the entire value of the company is not crazy? What kind of crazy pills are you on?
@sampatkalyan3103
Жыл бұрын
No one is charging the user . Are you dumb.
@brymstoner
Жыл бұрын
what bottle you got there?
@draganovich1
8 ай бұрын
Just do math in the js console in dev tools
@lowkeycode
Жыл бұрын
Ground control to Masto Dong
@tokiomutex4148
Жыл бұрын
I am using Python as my calculator.
@shinobi1975
Жыл бұрын
Reddit was never going to last with their previous model anyway lol
@fulconandroadcone9488
Жыл бұрын
Is this one of those things, that I didn't really hear nor do I really care?
@theohallenius8882
Жыл бұрын
Reddit should negotiate with high volume apps to make sure high volume 3rd party apps pay at most 30% of their revenue for the API, that would be reasonable.
@ThePrimeTimeagen
Жыл бұрын
I would say 2-3x, But I think we can all agree 20xs entirely too high
@fuzzy-02
Жыл бұрын
I think its fair. Because those users on these apps dont want to use reddit in the first place, so you can't consider them 'stolen' or 'lost' profit in the first place.
@ruukinen
Жыл бұрын
@@fuzzy-02 But they are a netcost to reddit now that they do use reddit via third party solutions, so it can't exactly be free. The absolute minimum would be at cost. A more reasonable approach would be costs + margin (1x?). 20x is not reasonable no matter the product.
@fuzzy-02
Жыл бұрын
@@ruukinen sounds reasonable. Im not well versed in this matter but your comment is very logical
@vtduch
Жыл бұрын
Why just you dont charge as little as like 0.001 cent per request and include all your god damn ads to post stream? It would be win-win because reddit will still get revenue from ads and apollo will not be overcharged to death
@wubsyman5796
Жыл бұрын
The entire price questioning bit at 15-16 mins feels a bit weird, surely it would be something like (0.12/avg. req per usr per month) * 1.2 because then third party apps would be able to exist while still giving Reddit a profit incentive (if the third party app can't monetise an average per user per month to over $0.144 then something's wrong)
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