Hey Bjørn wouldn’t it be a cool thing to rent Millennium Falcon like in the good old times and do a 1000km challenge?
@maxlenre1990
3 жыл бұрын
He bought it back now
@terl99
4 жыл бұрын
The similarities between apple and tesla are striking - No indipendent repair (no right to repair) - Updates that are discontinuing or nerfing older products - A part of the customers that act like cult members Thank you @Bjørn Nyland to show us also the shady sides of tesla. This is the best EV Channel on KZitem.
@joebass5163
4 жыл бұрын
You can order parts direct from Tesla and install them yourself.
@PrimiusLovin
4 жыл бұрын
Shortcomings in technology are expected, but forcing a software updated to nerf the performance of a device in order to avoid warranty claims is a disgusting corporate business attitude no matter the point of view from which you look at it... it almost makes me puke! 🤢
@thomasb4422
4 жыл бұрын
Remember when Apple reduced the speed of their iPhones to hide their bad batteries? It's the same, but Apple got a huge shitstorm for it
@ashish00007
4 жыл бұрын
How long is the warranty? It's been 6 years. Battery capacity and rate at which it charge is going to deteriorate with time.
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
@@thomasb4422 I just got that Apple Class action in the mail for my nerfed 6S phone
@DanielZaar
4 жыл бұрын
@@ashish00007 8 years & unlimited km:s
@ashish00007
4 жыл бұрын
@@DanielZaar nice!
@TrisGarage
4 жыл бұрын
Additionally, many of the 85's had their batteries capped. Imagine getting an OTA that took away your horsepower, range and charging speed. Not cool Tesla.
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
Do you know ONE MS 85 which is NOT capped? They have all the same problem because of battery chemistry!
@tomascermak9205
4 жыл бұрын
Result of 24 hours instant connectivity. "Your" thing is not completely "your" anymore.
@renevoorberg7129
4 жыл бұрын
@@jannan_art There are some who kept firmware at V8 they don't suffer, but no more updates now because Tesla moved to websockets
@onedankind8168
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla has literally crippled peoples ability to travel long distances by doing this. Imagine buying a car that all of a sudden a dealership changed something fairly substantial about how it performed. Pretty sure you'd be pissed.
@onedankind8168
4 жыл бұрын
@@InternetDude Yup. "oh that V8 towing was killing our batteries, here's a V6 and half towing capacity." WTH.
@ralphpurtcher
3 жыл бұрын
>> Tesla has literally crippled peoples ability to travel long distances by doing this Exaggerated slightly perhaps. We know that Tesla added 12 minutes to charge time for 70%. We just travelled 1100km to Spain and back in our 2014 Model S 85, with 5 charges this adds about an hour to the trip. It's pretty bad and noticeable, but also not the end of the world. What used to be ~3 hours of charging is now ~4 hours for the same trip. Given that Tesla allows users to charge to 100% (not great for the battery), the software should allow faster charging faster in exceptional circumstances... of course while warning the owner clearly of the consquences.
@onedankind8168
2 жыл бұрын
@@ralphpurtcher I stumbled across this old post watching bjorn videos! heh... You're right of course. I was being fairly dramatic about that. But it is a rather serious issue and in many cases the number one concern for all potential EV buyers. Even if this effects them only once a year. 50kw charging or 30min stops is more than fast enough in most cases since most people rarely drive more than 500km a day. It's nice to take a break after over two hours of driving anyways. I'm looking to buy my own Tesla this year. No other Ev can even compare. Take care.
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
Bjorn you're right it sucks for Tesla S founders, and they should be taken care of with a upgraded refurbished pack.
@staly23o
4 жыл бұрын
Allow people to upgrade for affordable cost and they can recycle it as power wall. Resell as true renewable.
@liyuanxing830
4 жыл бұрын
Jordan Woodz Tesla don’t have battery recycling facility like NIO.
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
@@liyuanxing830 Google Redwood Materials - a guy named JB. You might of heard of him;)
@staly23o
4 жыл бұрын
Jordan Woodz agreed.
@staly23o
4 жыл бұрын
InternetDude ok ok... since they can achieve 3.81 miles per kw. Maybe just the powertrain upgrade to get 3.81 per kw on a 90 kw pack for 293 usefulness miles. But I think if they can make a pack compatible with 90 pack connections and battery cells a little resistance to heat( or require less cooling) as well as being 108 kw. I think a compatible pack is better choice and easier to change plus we can pay for it. That could also boost resale value of older model S and X because you can upgrade and get even better charging time. 295 miles would be enough for me on my MX 90d to 100d. Or 243 at 80 mph with AC on full confort. It would be nice. But the new ones should go up to 500 miles of range first to make attractive so that it makes business sense.
@kennethrgeberg2217
4 жыл бұрын
My 2018 75D got nefed from a peak of 128kW to 82kW over night. No gradual reduction. Same thing happened to a friend of mine with the same car that also supercharge a lot. Service center say nothing is wrong and this is normal.
@backwoodsbungalow9674
4 жыл бұрын
To preserve its reputation and to recognise the contribution of early adopters, Tesla should offer a discounted battery replacement after 8 years at say $10,000 for a 100kWh battery pack; ie at the cost price of the latest cells. The discount should be accepted as a research and development cost. That would be wise and fair as between customers and shareholders. 😎 The aluminium body of the Model S & X can last a lot longer than 8 years, and the old cells can have a second life in energy storage, so this replacement would be good for the environment too.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
There is not evidence to suggest Tesla has solved the underlying problem. My 85 was 5 years old when the OTA nerf was installed, a year AFTER production on the 3 started. They can wait until 2022 to nerf the 3 and they'll still be acting a year faster than they did on my car... and the 3 fast charge is even more aggressive. I think this is a bigger story still unfolding.
@liyuanxing830
4 жыл бұрын
The only use of a degraded old battery is recycling the material in order to build a new one. If you have the throughput you have the business.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
Sebastian Gode You're asserting the new chemistry was developed to address a problem 2-3 years before Tesla realized it was one. That's a pretty big leap, IMO.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
Sebastian Gode so, if that's true, then Tesla looks even WORSE for selling packs they KNEW could not stand up to the use-case they were advocating. It's one thing to discover later that the 85 pack wasn't capable, but quite another to knowingly sell new 90 packs without changing the specs or adjusting the disclosure. And that's the company ethos you're relying on to provide assurances that the 3/Y pack is completely immune to this problem despite doubling the charge rate? Yeah... I'm going to stick with my wait and see approach on this. That's not convincing at all.
@sam712
4 жыл бұрын
the cultists turned me off the brand entirely. they are unhinged and will froth at the mouth defending a FOR PROFIT company no matter how reprehensible or anti consumer
@bobquast9334
4 жыл бұрын
My 2012 Signature P85 had 250 miles of range until this NERF software update around May/June 2019, at which time I lost 10% of my permanent range (now only 225 miles, or just over 200 @90%!). And my peak SC rate starts at 86kW, and quickly drops off. It takes almost an HOUR to go from 10% to 90%, which I must do while road-tripping to see my Mom. Tesla totally ruined the joy of road trips in my Sig P85. ☹️
@sahilmehta9498
4 жыл бұрын
Have a 2013 and same here. Not good for road trips anymore and it sucks. I would really love to file a class action lawsuit against them for this. Its not right
@sidonconstruct4713
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla should have replaced the battery pack for the cars and mentain the charging speed as promised. Shame on Tesla for this. After paying 100k euro for the car Tesla protects herself not the customer that payd the car for 8 years to have the same characteristichs. shame.
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
Same here. Waiting for Polestar 2 😡
@mucall
4 жыл бұрын
Exactly as my 85. The last update mess up the range.
@timber8403
4 жыл бұрын
With OTA updates on cars these days it’s like “big brother” of EVs . Once I own my car, beyond safety, I do not tolerate outside interference.
@ncni3543
4 жыл бұрын
No matter what type of battery chemistry, fast charging causes accelerated degradation due to heat build-up and volumetric change.
@heinzruffieux5817
4 жыл бұрын
Degradation is not the issue. My battery after 230kkm is still in very good condition. But charging speed is now inacceptable!
@staly23o
4 жыл бұрын
I like the idea of up grading to bigger pack. Only the battery pack with more energy density and less energy as well as efficient cooling system. Fire up that 5 minute battery pack swap they attempted and only use it for pack upgrade as service. I would also offer the permanent magnets motor.
@AW66888
2 жыл бұрын
@@heinzruffieux5817 I rather have slow degradation and accept slower charging speed.
@TheEvilmooseofdoom
4 жыл бұрын
This is part of the price of being an early adopter of new tech. They needed to do something to extend the life of older battery packs. Don't expect this to be unique to the S or X or any other BEV on the road. Minimizing this kind of thing is, in part, driving battery research.
@PrimiusLovin
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I'm still waiting for the Model 3 and Model Y beta testers to finish their jobs before deciding to jump on the EV bandwagon, until then, TDi power it is!...
@TheEvilmooseofdoom
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever Wear rate and failure are not the same thing. The battery early adopters got was not defective, just the best available at the time. That batteries degrade with use is well known and how much car batteries would degrade over time and mixed charging conditions was unknown. That's part of the risk early adopters took. Axle problems?
@brembodream
4 жыл бұрын
As the batteries get chaper to produce, all Tesla ovner should be offered a reasonable price for replace / refurbish to 85 or even 100kwh (perhaps 120kwh also)
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
Great idea! 👍🏻🍀👍🏻🍀👍🏻
@brembodream
4 жыл бұрын
Just trying to be realistic here. A diesel engine cost a lot run in diesel consumption, to maintain, oilchange, filters, diesel soilonide etc. More comparabal with a worn out turbo or that ofthent happens to ICE motors. Cost a lot to change these as well. A Tesla midlife refurbish battery can be upgradet as well from 60kwh to 100kwh with better performance acceleration range etc. Encrease ownership value as well as resell value. I think this will be a very popular service. I wouldnt mind, in a few years to use i.e. 4k$ to swap degraded cells on my S75D pack and even might pay extra 3k$ to go up to 100kwt package. Reduced cells can be used by Tesla in battery grid megapacks, allowing these beneficial prices for Tesla owners.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@TheSteinbitt Because Tesla swims in money now. They can do it easily. They also should replace the old MCU 1 for free.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever repairing would indeed better. That damn flash chip. Tesla should come up with a solution 2020 to all those issues with the first S.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever Ok, didnt know that. 90kWh it is then.
@heinzruffieux5817
4 жыл бұрын
My S85 is from almost the exact same day as your Millenium Falcon and I have exact the same problem AND I AM PISSED! In fact I now started a legal claim on the issue. Battery condition is still very good, but charging speed is now inacceptable! I have some 1/3 of DC charging only.
@niclasstroh4943
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah and then imagine you just bought it and it worked fine at test drive. Now mine is also nerfed. 3 weeks later! I want this in warranty
@niclasstroh4943
4 жыл бұрын
So let's look into this deeper. If this is legal...what stops Tesla from nerfing a car after a hours use. Like presenting a super car that turns into tractor after midnight. Very much a Cinderella story!
@scottwills4698
4 жыл бұрын
I feel sorry for the early adopters too, Tesla should support them by offering battery swaps. As you said these people supported Tesla when they were struggling. They bought a car with a certain range / charge speed and it has been taken off them which isn’t fair on the customer.
@bjornnyland
4 жыл бұрын
If I still owned Millennium Falcon, I would pay €5000 extra to get an upgrade til 90 kWh pack.
@scottwills4698
4 жыл бұрын
Bjørn Nyland and I think that’s fair, the customer gets an upgrade to their car and the car would be easily worth €5k more. Tesla would hopefully break even on it.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@bjornnyland I would not settle below 100kWh. Maybe even the new 120kWh. Tesla really should make them a good "founder customer" offer.
@Mongooseman121
4 жыл бұрын
December 2015 85d here and I’ve been suffering the nurfed charging speed for over a year. Mine seems even slower but maybe it’s not. My regular journey from Kent England to northern Scotland is now about an hour longer and is really noticeable sitting there waiting for it to charge when newer cars come and go! Ie a 12 hour journey before with 4 charging stops now takes 13 hours, which is kinda annoying. I thought it was in response to the Shanghai model s fire they reduced it? On the plus side I reckon my deg is about 4% which isn’t bad for a 4.5 year old car with 70,000 miles. Also I’ve noticed they haven’t even updated the navigation so when it says supercharge here for 25 mins, I have to double it, ie wait for 50.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
The charge time not reflecting reality is incredibly annoying. The very least they could do is update that. BTW-- charge over 80% and time how long your coolant pumps run after charging completes. That's a new behavior too, and a lot of wear/tear. I charge to 75 now to avoid it.
@moestrei
4 жыл бұрын
A guy in Germany had his battery pack replaced on warranty because of a faulty DC contactor inside the pack. The replacement battery had less capacity (-30km by memory) and he just had to cop it. Documented on Ove Kröger's channel. That is even less acceptable and Tesla needs to lift their game, same with MCU1 failures.
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
they have a cheap mcu1 fix now
@moestrei
4 жыл бұрын
@@macoy9999 Yes and no: They still use the bad eMMC and it is just to get the car over the warranty. At this stage the best is to have a 3rd party upgrade the chip with a bigger/higher grade one.
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
@@moestrei I was told a Silicon Valley Tesla that there is a in-house $300 fix for the mcu1 depending on what year. 2015-2018
@moestrei
4 жыл бұрын
@@macoy9999 Its not a fix. They sell you a new Nvida cpu with the same crappy memory chip. This way they get the cars over the warranty period but they just reset the timebomb. Then the owners will be faced with a USD3000 upgrade to MCU2.
@cyman777
3 жыл бұрын
@@moestrei No, latest update is to 64gb, should last longer than the car.
@PrinceBlackRR
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your investigation, some french youtubers attacks owners of Model s and x because they stay to charge more long time than their new model 3. Your video give a good hand. Thanks again
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
And we'll freaking sit there on the network we paid to build until we're charged enough to proceed... maybe a little longer if the line is full of belligerent and ungracious late-adopter KZitemrs.
@planetmuskvlog3047
4 жыл бұрын
My 90D ModelX has not charged faster than 94 kw in over a year. I used to get like 120 kw in the beginning.
@thelondonbroiler
4 жыл бұрын
The Elon giveth and the Elon taketh.
@thelondonbroiler
4 жыл бұрын
@@TheSteinbitt I need to know what it is I'm supposed to be praying for ;)
@felixamyot5576
4 жыл бұрын
Exactly the same here. Getting to 50% is a bit long. Getting to 300km is excruciatingly painful. I kinda hope it fails completely to get a new one.
@evenfylling2528
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever X100D 2017 has also been slowed down, max 114kW ...
@macoy9999
4 жыл бұрын
@@felixamyot5576 gotta get those charge cycles up. good luck
@titanium70rd64
4 жыл бұрын
Yep, I drive a MS70D since 2016 and I can confirm that reduction in charging speed. In daily driving this is no issue, but it is a time factor on a 800 km drive. It now takes approximately 2:15 minutes (sorry for the misunderstanding: 2 hrs 15 minutes) longer than a current Model 3. It is painful 😣 but I think I can handle this in the future. What choice is there, buying a new Tesla for 1 or 3 holiday trips a year? At the moment I say no
@LunnarisLP
4 жыл бұрын
2 minutes is actually really reasonable for a 4 year old car. How is the range degradation?
@arnoldcziurlok4451
4 жыл бұрын
@@LunnarisLP 2 hours ;)
@arnoldcziurlok4451
4 жыл бұрын
@@LunnarisLP The 70 and 85 kWh packs degradation over time is only half that much compared to 75/90. Have seen that in a statistics at electrek.net some time ago.
@RoaldHemel35
4 жыл бұрын
Facelift Model S or nose cone?
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
@@LunnarisLP 2 hours! Same problem here 😡
@slartybartfarst9737
4 жыл бұрын
Yes I agree my P85 pack went kaput at 73,000 the replaced pack charges at 125 KWh max in the first 40% not as fast as before, it tapers off fast after 40% also the Regen is not as big until the battery is warmed.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
Quick, change it to 125kw, otherwise he will never stop using "Whats up" at the beginning of every damn video...
@felixamyot5576
4 жыл бұрын
I think they should allow anyone with a pre-100 pack to buy an upgrade at a reasonable price even if it has not failed yet. They get their old packs back, we get a soft locked 100pack new for 20k$. We continue enjoying our cars, they get a beautiful image and the second hand markets keeps kicking. And they sell more cars because people know Tesla got their back.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
LOL that $20k is a reasonable price for upgrading a car. They want positive press they need to keep this under 5 digits and with a renewed warranty (albeit it will probably be as useless as the current one re: degradation/charge rates). The old batteries have a core value that should not be zeroed out.
@heiltvilt
3 жыл бұрын
I tested my 2014 on two different SC on friday. At 19% I’ve got 97kW and 87%. Lyngdal vs Brokelandsheia. I started in Stavanger so the battery should be same temp. Same temp outside +/- 1C’ Thanks for a lot of good videos 👍
@davidz1264
4 жыл бұрын
Got a 70D Loaner (pre face lift, 77.000km) a couple of weeks ago. Never saw more than 60kW at the Supercharger. That‘s hard 😑
@ashton9699
3 жыл бұрын
7:56 almost spat out my drink, thanks Bjorn 😂
@Eldriven
4 жыл бұрын
I have a model S 85D that I bought used from 2015 and thought it was charging a bit slowly but I had nothing to compare with now it is clear, very unfortunate. My charge looks exactly like the one on the right. Thanks Björn great video like always.
@TheNewAccount2008
4 жыл бұрын
"Modern cars can take it easily" Well, let's talk about that in 6 years or so, shall we? Maybe the M3 will have the same problem down the road?
@bjornnyland
4 жыл бұрын
Or let's see how e-tron in 4-5 years are doing. I already see some indications that Ioniq from 2016 might be at max 60 kW instead of 65 kW.
@DerBlauzahn
4 жыл бұрын
@@bjornnyland Audi will do not nerf it: kzitem.info/news/bejne/kXeZmWaKhWuIdqw - my IONIQ @80k km still full speed charging (68 kW on HPC Display).
@zocker1600
4 жыл бұрын
I created a screenshot of those two comments....I am really interested how this plays out, but I think that M3 will get exactly the same treatment as the old M S
@zocker1600
4 жыл бұрын
@@kruemelfelix we will see, I can't argue against you, since it's all speculation anyway. I personally just highly doubt all those promises and claims by Tesla and the fanboys, saying that the battery will last longer as the car etc etc All I see is, that batteries older than 5 years suddenly get nerfed massively regardless of mileage, which is very alarming to me and disproves the claim of "battery aging is not an issue" or that they will last for 15 years no problem.
@Nelson-Man
4 жыл бұрын
I think they knew what they were doing from the beginning. It is not so hard to test cells for cycle life under different charging curves.
@HansKruse
4 жыл бұрын
I have noticed this also with my 2014 P85 which has done 240.000km. It still drives nicely and with no ratles so that is good. But I'm on the 3rd drivetrain and the same btaterypack and since the warranty will run out in April 2022, I'm a little waiting for Tesla to tell me what the situation will be then. I have asked at the servicecenter in Copenhagen, but no useful answers. I have noticed that the car seems more efficient than it was when I got it second hand in 2016, but I have no data to back it up.I have not done any really long trips to e.g. Italy which I do normally due to Corona, so I do not have a real feal for it on the really long trips and on the motorway in Germany. I'm not sure there is a question here to Bjørn, but a concern about the potential need to scrap the car at some point, because it will be too expensive to fix it with a new battery. My thinking is that Tesla should support the early adopters!
@Hvitserk67
4 жыл бұрын
In many ways, this is really a big problem. Many people cannot afford new cars and if they (of course) consider a used older Tesla they may experience things they did not anticipate in terms of charging, speed and ultimate expected range. The situation is not the same when it comes to older used ordinary cars and this is a bit sad if you want to be environmentally friendly.
@mucall
4 жыл бұрын
I have a 2013 85kw. We are really suffering.
@dna2087
4 жыл бұрын
Are you being ironic? Or do you actually "suffer" from slow charging speed? As long as the capacity is not too degraded, it isn't so bad, no?
@sidonconstruct4713
4 жыл бұрын
2014 85 pack. Not more than 60kwh is going out from the battery pack. Max 300 km safe.
@ExperienceCN
4 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately the charging curve on my p85 is about 10-15 kw below that shown in the video
@mchc715
4 жыл бұрын
I endure my 85kw suffering with my upgraded MCU2. Queuing up lots of videos these days
@TheDanishSpaceman
4 жыл бұрын
I would go to Tesla to have them check the battery. There is 8 years warranty on the battery right?
@alittlebitmoore
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this, good to see some solid information. Lots of comments and opinions in the Tesla groups about this but now I understand what actually happens (personally not affected as have a 100D but who knows what may happen in the future) And you are right, the early adopters should be at least looked after under warranty.
@TheLemminkainen
4 жыл бұрын
as owner of Tesla and Apple u are always just user not an owner XD
@AaronStarkLinux
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever Actually as a Linux user I can tell you that Windows 10 updates are really good :)
@HomeCinemaJunkie
4 жыл бұрын
@@AaronStarkLinux Hehe!:)
@nakfan
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla owners worldwide should unite through social media. Making the problem known will always put some pressure on Tesla. BR, Per
@moestrei
4 жыл бұрын
My 2014 85P+ Signature with 280000km charges like that (with a warm battery), the previous owner did 90% Supercharging, 10% AC. With DC charging it never goes higher than 94% which is even more annoying when you live in a biiig country. But I knew all that when I bought the car, i got it for a good price and on trips my typical meal / charge break still takes longer than the actual charging. With some planning it is absolutely not an issue for me but for others it may be a no-go. Other EVs like Ioniq still have 100% SOH after 100000km despite agressive DC charging.
@MCSMIK
4 жыл бұрын
Loads of people in UK Tesla owners group with 75 packs complaining of the same issues
@TomMoore11-23
4 жыл бұрын
Sometimes there is the suggestion that the “nerfing” is needed to reduce the threat of a battery fire, which probably helps to increase acceptance of the situation. However, hardly any battery fires seem to occur during supercharging, so that may be a tactic on Tesla’s part. Then I suppose that fact that most of these cars have lifetime free supercharging helps to soften the blow, at least for those not in too much of a hurry. I’m not happy about the situation, that’s for sure...
@angelinsurancesc
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this Video sent u a msg then found this video answering my question....at 53% I'm getting 56KW rate....new to Tesla but I'm in no rush....thanks for the great videos
@ar-2-r
4 жыл бұрын
I hope my battery will die before December 2022 😉. Keep the fingers crossed.
@Likr666
4 жыл бұрын
Thus doesn't mean, you 'll geht a new pack. No benefit for you, If you geht a used one.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@Likr666 Even the used ones are like brand new ones, because they replaced the defective modules.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever That would suck... Yes, a not nerfed 90kWh pack is the only solution then. 100kWh doesn't fit.
@ralphpurtcher
3 жыл бұрын
Many argue that Tesla has done this purely to reduce warranty claims. That's not the only reason they might have done this. Another reason would be to reduce the number of people on the second-hand market having to replace their battery entirely (out of their own pockets) after the warranty runs out. That WOULD be terrible for the brand if a huge proportion of owners were forced to do this, as in the second-hand market expected battery lifetime is the single most important element to the value of your car.
@TornadoBob1
4 жыл бұрын
Supercharging on my 2015 Model S 85D is still free! The charging rates are about exactly the same as in the video. I don't do a huge amount of supercharging, so it doesn't bother me much. If I ever do a long road trip again (Minnesota to Colorado) like I did in 2018, I'll have to plan for some longer waits at superchargers-- or just buy a Raven Model S.
@smartLooser
4 жыл бұрын
Yesterday I drove back from Bodensee with 15C outside. Roundabout 170km. At SoC I started charging by 29% and 136kW. MS90D 9.2016, 41000km.
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
Das Problem betrifft vor allem MS 85. ich kenne mittlerweile keinen mehr, der dieses Problem nicht hat. Ein Kumpel von mir hat sich fünf Stück nacheinander gekauft und ist jetzt auf P100 umgestiegen. Ich hab die Kohle nicht (gebraucht gekauft) und muss damit leben 😭
@smiles9819
4 жыл бұрын
Wish my P85DL was getting the speeds of either one my current max is charging 74kw at any condition or soc. Was verified by tesla service but they said it was operating within there quidelines and #chargegate, #batterygate was to improve the longevity of the battery lol
@AudiolandCH
4 жыл бұрын
Same here mate. They give stupid answers on this topic even it's clear. P85DL charging max 88. Goes down fast. Except I heat it up completely it starts 112 and then goes every second down 1kw...
@adewouters
4 жыл бұрын
IMHO it's unfair of Tesla to act like this, even if I understand there are good reasons to do it. But if it's a warranty problem, then it's their fault, because it's Tesla who announced the 8 years unlimited kilometers (if I remember well) warranty of the power train and battery, it's not a request of the customers. It's a bit like if they decided to change the terms of a contract after some time because they realized they made a mistake when initially evaluating the reliability of the system. Nobody forced them to propose such a warranty from the beginning. It was their choice, so it's their risk, their mistake, their responsibility. Most probably there are little characters allowing them to do so and protecting them from any legal action, but that's not fair.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
EXACTLY. We bought BECAUSE of the warranty. Didn't foresee that they would nerf the car to limp it over the line. Shady.
@niclasstroh4943
4 жыл бұрын
Agree! And how much can they cap before it will be regarded illegal not to go under warranty? I mean ...they could cap it to 5kwh max charge rate then and that will still be ok?
@girogiacomo
4 жыл бұрын
If I remember well the tesla that lit on fire in a parking lot in china a year ago was a P85 and after that tesla discovered excessive strain on the cells of that pack so they pushed a software update to limit the charghing speed and limit the range on certain battery packs to ensure it deosn't happen again... article found googling "tesla supercharger nerf p85": www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-battery/tesla-owner-lawsuit-claims-software-update-fraudulently-cut-battery-capacity-idUSKCN1UY2TW
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
Maybe with the new own Tesla battery production, they are willing to go down with the batter pack prices and make a good offer to the affected customers. (will be shown on B-Day)
@Kipernicus1
4 жыл бұрын
Google sheeeets 🤣🤣🤣 rofl! But seriously yeah, with degradation AND slower charging you're not looking at just 12 min difference to 80%, you are really looking at the 34 min to 70% before versus 55 min to 80% today to go the same distance. That's 21 minutes and 62% slower! Yes even worse for us 60s.
@bjornnyland
4 жыл бұрын
Incorrect. Degradation isn't that big so you can compare 80 % before vs 70 % today.
@RamonSmits
4 жыл бұрын
@@bjornnyland degradation is higher due to the voltage cap afaik. That is on top of regular degradation.
@smiles9819
4 жыл бұрын
@@RamonSmits Yes thats correct #batterygate #chargegate, lowering the maxV on each cell thus reducing range, power, loss of regen and constant fan running.
@elliottkeen9933
4 жыл бұрын
Hi Bjorn my ms70 d is still ok it starts sc at 115kwh 30 mins it's up to a good % .my gom will display a range of 270mks at 100%.I had a leaf + before so ms is in another league
@RockyMountainTesla
4 жыл бұрын
We just did a trip recently and got 24 kWh in 18 minutes at one 150 kW supercharger (Golden, BC) in our Model 3 SR+. So a SR+ Model 3 might actually charge and go faster on a trip. That was from 20% to 68%, so not even starting at the same lower SOC it pretty much matched it.
@larsjrgensen5975
4 жыл бұрын
My colleague will be happy about this, he just payed to get his forth door handle fixed, he is waiting for the car computer flash problem to get fixed and now maybe this. The 4 door handles repair alone, was enough to buy a new engine for my ICE car.
@ghp0518
4 жыл бұрын
Planned obsolesce, when the manufacturer has full control over the software in your car this is what you get. It can be even worse , there were some cases where Tesla decided to disable fast charging for some cars which were rebuilt even if they were certified by Tesla as ok.
@TheEvilmooseofdoom
4 жыл бұрын
It's to preserve the life of the older battery packs.
@kaasman78
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla doesn't do planned obsolescence. They build the best they can at a specific moment. And they try to keep everything as close to spec as they can, whilst honoring warranty. However, this nerf is pretty harsh. Maybe Tesla legal has everything buttoned down, but I understand this feels bad as a customer. Would be great if Tesla could make a decent deal for a new pack at discount or something.
@TheEvilmooseofdoom
4 жыл бұрын
@@kaasman78 The idea of easier battery pack changes were engineered into the Model 3 but not in the older Tesla's (S and X). That makes a battery replacement much more expensive and requires specialized labor which can't be done everywhere. So they reduce charging speed, that's part of the risk of being an early adopter of new technology and big liquid cooled battery packs and fast charging was new territory at the time.
@kaasman78
4 жыл бұрын
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom That isn't correct. Only current S and X have a pack that can be swapped easily. Model3 doesn't. Tesla flirted with the idea to use battery swapping stations back in the day. In fact S and X cars are shipped to Europe without the packs. Tesla remarries the body and packs in the Tilburg plant in The Netherlands.
@doudoune1067
4 жыл бұрын
Sadly, I don't think they didn't know about the issue back then. It's standard qualification procedure to run absurd amounts of test cycles on every new EV (not only for the battery). I think Tesla offers the maximum charging the battery can handle given the battery age and degradation. That part valid policy but they definitely should be more transparent about it. I expect that the newer models will also have a nerf based on kWh of DC charging. On the other hand decreasing the charging speed for everyone (without regard for actual battery degradation) via update just because they get to many warranty cases is a d*** move no matter where you stand. IMO they should just replace the batteries of the "few" early adopters rather than having this kind of publicity...
@jozefroman2110
3 жыл бұрын
In February 2020 I got my 2015 MS 70D driving it from France home I never seen anything above 90kW. In July I drove to Croatia for my summer vacation and I have seen 112kW, so it has got better. My DC to AC ratio is 1:9. I don't remember which software version did that but it did get faster. Current typical range at 100% is 342km. Car has over 143t km on odometer.
@joebass5163
4 жыл бұрын
Air conditioning system performance can also reduce charging speeds. Cars that are older will likely have ac that doesn't cool as well when it was new either because refrigerant level is low, condenser could need cleaning, louvers not working properly, condenser fan failure. So to get the best charging speed the AC system needs to perform like new.
@MorpheusDTU
4 жыл бұрын
I got a new battery pack in my 85 a few months ago and it charges way faster. But it was also a brand new pack and not a refurbished pack.
@MorpheusDTU
4 жыл бұрын
@@breakfixfever Don´t know. The software reduced the range to 150 km to protect the pack.
@janreinelt3975
4 жыл бұрын
Only thing Tesla could do is to allow old models to charge longer than the 45 min limit PS: Thanks for still following up on problems with the old cars
@arnebirkeland6249
4 жыл бұрын
I have a Tesla S 2015. I have not experienced a notable drop in range, but in speed, just as documented. Very annoing.
@chenxubin
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla is like Apple, but Apple learned, hopefully Tesla will too.
@AaronStarkLinux
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla learned already, that's why only sell 100kWh batteries with improvements on S & X. He was talking about the classic Teslas.
@Karatektus
4 жыл бұрын
apple learned? how did you get that idea? :D
@BlaqZ
4 жыл бұрын
Apple still fighting the right to repair, and refused to actually waive the 30% fee of the facebook event even for donations, got so pissed that facebook told the consumer that 30% will went to Apple, they decided to deny the facebook update just to avoid that.
@arshamskrenes
4 жыл бұрын
Why doesn't Tesla let us pick super charging speed, like they let us set the state of charge? We should be able to go "slow", "medium", or "fast". Then let us "save the battery" for when we're in a rush. I was so irate when this slow super charging occurred to me. It was towards the end of the Firmware 9 updates in the late summer or early fall. They also run the fans much more aggressively (to the point that when I leave the SC my car is embarrassingly loud as I drive through the mall and people look at stare). If I charge above 80% it also runs the pumps for HOURS. It's so bad that even if I just slow charge in my garage from 79% to 80%, it'll actually charge to 82% and then run the pumps for a couple hours until it goes to 80%. Talk about paranoid and a waste of energy! If the battery is in such dire need of slowly charging and cooling, perhaps they should replace them for our safety?
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
Yup -- I set my daily to 75% just to avoid the hours of coolant pump running... because of course the increased failure rate from wear/tear on coolant pumps are not covered by warranty either. So they took capability to save themselves money on battery replacements but increased wear/tear on coolant pumps/fans to increase my potential out of warranty costs. Grrr......
@justinj.k.3597
4 жыл бұрын
I have a 75D and the battery is nerfed as well. There was a time I got 117kW, now I top out at 81kW. Sad really.
@Deddily
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla still make the best EVs, but there are downsides to them too. From the beginning, one of the main selling points has been that these cars "constantly get better as they get older" but here we see that it is not always true. Thank you for being unbiased, Björn.
@bjornnyland
4 жыл бұрын
Well, besides from this, a 2013 Tesla has in fact been better and better over the years. We have gotten new features like Camp Mode, update software via mobile app, keep climate on while supercharging even if SoC is below 20 %, and so on.
@morrisg
4 жыл бұрын
Remember, these old packs use 18650 cells from Panasonic Japan and they are now six, seven, maybe even 8 years old. Battery chemistry keeps getting better, both anode and cathode chemistry as well as the electrolyte and it's additives. For the same money, I would always choose to buy the newer design vehicle.
@thelondonbroiler
4 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate the video, but it sounds like it's still worse than shown, according to other commenters. I see a another class action lawsuit in Tesla's future. The charging speed shown, when factoring in vehicle efficiency, is not far off driving/charging a Bolt/AmperaE, or other similar EVs. They poked original roadster owners in the eye down the road with abysmal service, they've poked older model s owner's in the eye, and they've poked second gen roadster reservation owners (who put lots of money down with nothing to show for it) in the eye by diminishing the priority.... While I very much appreciate what Tesla has done for the industry, at the end of the day, Tesla is obligated to be profitable to it's share holders. Tesla, like most other businesses, will screw people where convenient and when they think they can get away with it.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
We have future Tesla purchases on indefinite hold until we see what, if anything, Tesla does re: the 85. They've already lost one of our purchases to Subaru...
@thelondonbroiler
4 жыл бұрын
@@NZCUTR I can't fault you, but I hope it was a PHEV at least ;) I understand businesses can't satisfy every customer, but Tesla should really try to avoid screwing large numbers of owners of entire product segments. I think while there are still a lot of very pragmatic consumers that recoil when learning these things, Tesla understands how hot their product is and the glut of consumers that unfortunately do little to no due diligence prior to very sizeable purchases.
@alextogo8367
4 жыл бұрын
Business is business. Every company screws it's customers, nothing new here. Just saying.
@thelondonbroiler
4 жыл бұрын
@@alextogo8367 Yes, plenty of business's that use over the air updates to diminish consumers products capabilities.... wait no.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
@@thelondonbroiler Nope. After the acceleration of the S, we can't abide the glacial Subaru 4 cylinder anymore (still have a Baja for the kids). Bought a fully loaded 3.6R w/Eyesight (you can see it on my channel in the background sometimes). LOVE IT. It's primarily my wife's car, since we bailed on the reveal day 3 reservation after seeing that it had no hatch and considering the shenanigans with the S. It was literally Tesla's sale to lose... and they lost it. Would consider a Y as the Outback's replacement but not until I see what Tesla does re: the 85 and, of course, assuming quality VASTLY improves.
@erikstephens34
4 жыл бұрын
Wow on a range/time basis these charge just as fast if not slower than the Bolt EV/ Ampera-e.
@matthew9076
4 жыл бұрын
And this is why buying a used electric car is so complicated. Even tho the battery says 98% they can have done things like the telsa, changed how the car actually works. If I buy a car, I expect it to work the the same as the day it what bought, not some reduced shit I'm not informed about. Norwegian consumer law will have a field with this shit.
@robsmith1a
4 жыл бұрын
If slower charging is the only issue with buying an older Tesla I wouldn't worry too much. I have just bought a seven and a half year old Mercedes and I wouldn't sleep if I thought about all the things that can go wrong with that.
@Catacang
4 жыл бұрын
Are we sure newer cars like Model 3 won't have a similar scenario in a few years?
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
Right now, not even massive DC charging can slow down a Model 3. Different cell chemistry will makes all the difference. Tesla learned. I don't think Model 3/Y will ever get those problems.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
@@kasmopaya2676 That cell chemistry was developed years BEFORE the nerf. The nerf came in 2019, Model 3 deliveries started in 2018, with battery development prior to that, of course. If Tesla "engineered out" the problem it was by pure accident. I would not bet money that 3/Y are exempt. My 85 was nerfed at 5 years old. Oldest Model 3 is 2 years old and those higher DC charge rates are even more stressful. Time will tell.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@NZCUTR Ok, not 100%vsure about the current battery gen., lets wait 10 years but the ones that come with battery day in a few days,(1,6 million km) are lasting practically forever.
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
Kasmopaya ... Says Tesla?Fool me once... I'll be waiting to see definitive proof of that bold a claim-- objective, non-Tesla proof.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
@@NZCUTR Fair enough. Gn8
@eyesurgeon69
4 жыл бұрын
Happened to my 2014 S 85 and I sold it as a result. It was a useless city car after the stealthy software push crippled the supercharging speed.
@cbisjr
4 жыл бұрын
thank you for your info! I was wondering why it was much slower than the past. I charged 2020 S at a supercharger but I never reach max charging. I was the only one at the Tesla charging station, yet the most I receive was 85kw. fk NERF
@hiravparekh8695
3 жыл бұрын
Wait did you say yours is a 2020 model S and it still charges at 85KW?
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
The assumption that newer cars are not going to be nerfed over time is a HUGE assumption. My 85 was 5 years old when the nerf happened (May 2019)... first deliveries of the Model 3 were in 2018. So if Tesla didn't know there was a problem until 2019, you can bet the batteries in the 3/Y et al are very likely to get nerfed in a couple years. You can't engineer a problem OUT of something if you haven't identified it as a problem yet. The only reason to think the 3/Y chemisty/design would be different enough to not be nerfed is... ?? Yeah, there aren't any other than hope and assumptions, because Tesla has not disclosed anything to prove that the non-disclosed issue with the 85 is resolved. Even if they waited until 2022 to send that OTA, they'd still be acting a year faster than they did on the 85 packs. Think about that. "First they came for the 85 and I didn't care because I didn't own an 85...."
@NZCUTR
4 жыл бұрын
@@InternetDude I'm a car guy first, EV second (the feeling of bottomless power is intoxicating)... so I don't think any Toyota would have the dynamics I want, but I'm curious about the Mach-E as a possible Outback replacement in a couple years, assuming nothing else better comes out. The S we'll keep until not economically viable.
@tkermi
4 жыл бұрын
That is quite bad charging speed indeed 😬. You get better with ID.3 58/62 kWh. I don't understand how the old curve could have been too agressive (for a cooled battery).
@jannan_art
4 жыл бұрын
Wait, until the first ID.3 are a few years old 😬
@tkermi
4 жыл бұрын
@@jannan_art Yeah, maybe 🤔😬😂. But it's not that extremely fast though. Max. is about 1,6C and avarage from 0% to 80% is about 1,3C. So with proper cooling there really should not be any problem.
@BillB33525
4 жыл бұрын
Probably charging out to 100% would be an even bigger difference? Heard some 75 packs have been reduced on charging speed, finally old cars are always gong to be old cars with reduced features and performance.
@sammy3095
4 жыл бұрын
Even my 2017 P100D is charging much slower than before!
@larspetersvane3956
4 жыл бұрын
I have had 110 kW in Belgium, Germany and Denmark in August 2020 (Model S 70D 2015) when the battery was nearly empty.
@Deddily
4 жыл бұрын
Oh I would LOVE to see Millennium Falcon again. Race with a new Leaf or Ipace, perhaps?
@rhydlew
3 жыл бұрын
4.5mins extra to 50%, 10 mins extra to 70% (@43mins). Not bad for an 8 year old car.
@JohnDoe-vx3z
4 жыл бұрын
Note to all EV owners: get rid off the car after 4yrs and let someone else deal with the problem.
@mho0
4 жыл бұрын
Did you just say value of EV is close to 0 in 4 years?
@JohnDoe-vx3z
4 жыл бұрын
@@mho0 No, just that you can drive EVs without having problems and without too much depreciation.
@kasmopaya2676
4 жыл бұрын
I know also a P90(P85 before), it belongs to tesla chaot. She also got a new battery after it shut down with a lot of km left.(they pushed the car to the next SC) Tesla is swimming in money now(unlimited funds), they should not do this for cars without much DC charging. If the battery fails, they need to replace it and not do a workaround to get over the 8 year warranty! Without those early adopter, there would not be any Tesla today. Not ok Tesla, not good at all! 90kWh nerfed after too much DC charging. So AC charge the heck out of those cars. As far as i know, Model 3 is still not slowed down after a lot of DC charging.
@marco7346
4 жыл бұрын
Someone caught Tesla lying. I'm shocked.
@MrSpuzzz
4 жыл бұрын
Marco Bartolucci what did they lie about?
@hf7188
4 жыл бұрын
Do you think this is a similar approach that Apple took with older Iphones and ended up paying fines for it? What i would like to know is if the overall performance of the car is also affected (range, accelerations, etc), after these updates. After all, both companies have more or less the same "protective" strategies to the market.
@VirtuellJo
4 жыл бұрын
It will be four or five years before we now if the current cars can take the load or not
@mistermister2085
4 жыл бұрын
Yup..and it might not just be Tesla..it could be all of them..or maybe some are better then others depending on chemistry/etc.
@Megaphonix
4 жыл бұрын
7:55 "I plotted all the data in a Google *Sheeeeeeeeeeit*"
@deas1972
4 жыл бұрын
Interesting! Thanks.
@smiles9819
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great insightful video. A video on capping (#batterygate) of Tesla cars on the May 2019 software update would be great as well.
@KiloNovemberHK
4 жыл бұрын
i drive MS P85+, what u said happened to me exactly.
@koziat66
4 жыл бұрын
Is not only about charging speed the early adopters and people whose bought 2012-2017 cars which support early Tesla have disadvantage, how about AP1 and now AP2.5 or AP3 ? Can you make video about that please we will never receive all good things with autopilot futures we was told we will have, but only new car get this 😕 on my software updates is always missing good things, yes time to change the car that’s not so great
@tyranelewis7763
Жыл бұрын
Nurfing the speed on the 85D is killing the benefit of Free Unlimited SC for road trips. it makes the road trips that much longer, almost as if its a punishment for having the Free unlimited SC perk. That was one of the biggest bragging rights of owning such a luxury EV , Coast to Coast driving free of charge. You spend more on tolls than powering your Flagship Tesla. Sad they cant figure a higher rate thats still save for the 85 pack. I love my 2015 MS 85D but it is getting a bit frustrating enjoying long road trips with the longer waits at SC. I live in Georgia, USA and have family in the Massachusetts adn Maryland area i love to visit. The nurfed speeds add 3 - 4 hours to travel time. deciding if i need to bite the bullet and move up to 2018 100D after owning my 85D for 2yrs now?
@hiravparekh8695
3 жыл бұрын
Tesla doesn't want people using their free supercharging a lot. That might be another reason along with battery warranty claims. I am a 2015 Model S 85D owner and my car gets even slower speeds sometimes 30-35kw at 30-35% charge which is totally unacceptable. Earlier was considering getting another Tesla and not switching but now I don't think I want an ev at all. Maybe etron or some hybrid or plugin hybrid
@alexandervoake745
4 жыл бұрын
awwwww sheeeeeeeet, it all makes sense now.....
@bwilson4web
4 жыл бұрын
The 18650 cells had an earlier chemistry and the pack an earlier cooling architecture. Today, we have 2700 cells with a better chemistry and improved thermal management. So what does this do for used, early Teslas? They'll be great around town and still able to travel cross country but slower block-to-block. There are new EVs with miserable, fast DC charging rates and the early Model S is at least on parity with them. Now if Tesla were to offer a pack upgrade program, great, BUT it would rob a critical resource needed for new Tesla vehicles. Instead, it may make sense to license the early Model S architecture and let someone like Rich Rebuilds make a cottage industry.
@AaronStarkLinux
4 жыл бұрын
As you said something related to warranties, the number of cases is increasing, but on the other hand, the fact that most of the classic Model S owners have experience driving their EVs and they have more knowledge about when it's the perfect moment to unplug and arrive at the next destination, and also because they are already "happy", Tesla decided to decrease the speed knowing that these owners will understand why the reason, so they will no complaint too much, so I think fast speed is better for new owners who need specs and time very close to their old fossil, but then after a few years driving they could receive a software update and decrease the speed in order to protect the battery. This might be a good practice, but in my opinion, this should only happen to people with more kms on their odometer or more charging sessions at high speed. But we saw that Porsche is also doing something, so 270kW was like good marketing.
@scottwills4698
4 жыл бұрын
Aaron Stark people aren’t happy, if you look at the UK Tesla owners Facebook page it’s full of #Batterygate #Chargegate posts. They are even considering class action against Tesla but are holding off because there is one going through in the US.
@Kverna8
4 жыл бұрын
I would think it was even slower than this, positive surprice. Should stop at 70% on the car to the right time wise. Trade in the s85 and put 200k into a m3sr+
@nickroberts4586
Жыл бұрын
Im getting a new 85kw put in my 2013 model s. Because tesla doesnt make 85kw for the S anymore, my new battery is actually a 100kw that has been software reduced to 85
@bjornnyland
Жыл бұрын
*kWh
@bernardhilton3527
4 жыл бұрын
Adopters. An adapter is a change interface.
@itatarevic
4 жыл бұрын
Batteries as service (BaaS) and possibility to swap battery instead of supercharging is way to go.
@mariano3113
4 жыл бұрын
I concur, but Tesla abandoned the 90-sec battery swap Service Stations and then switched to a non-compatible platform with Model 3/Y. I don't think Cybertruck nor Roadster 2.0 will share a common platform or battery. (Hopefully I am wrong) Looking at Tesla deciding to keep fragmentation amongst their own products does not give me faith in a future with standardised battery swaps. ~ Fragmentation other than Pack chemistry/platform includes : Different Screens for 3/Y vs S/X. My real pet-peeve: Wheel bolt pattern Roadster 1.0 : 5x110; Model S/X 5x120; Model 3/Y 5x114.3; Elon said Roadster 2.0 will have Center Lock wheels...I assume Cybertruck will have a bolt pattern that is compatible with Beadlock wheels 6/8/10 One might hink a standard wheel bolt pattern among the brand for most of the vehicles would lower costs at scale, but obviously that is incorrect.
@dominolehmann8227
4 жыл бұрын
just aweful because as an early adopter we payed twice the price to get half the speed :)
@ianmckay7615
4 жыл бұрын
how to supercharge a model S 85D fast Drive hard down to under 5% better if 2% then plug into supercharger 128KW until 10% then is still faster through whole charge and fan go like they use to great, if you run 20% to 80% charging speed is sh........t
@TRYtoHELPyou
3 жыл бұрын
our car charges at the rate of the one on the right now, it used to be so much faster. 2013S85
@PacoZap
3 жыл бұрын
You are great man!
@beamerbread
4 жыл бұрын
Tesla would have saved themselves a PR nightmare if they had just warned everyone that this was a possibility back in 2012. Extra annoying since you need to own an EV for longer than a gas car to really reap the gas savings.
@harsimranbansal5355
4 жыл бұрын
I feel like the same thing will happen to other EVs like the Etron or the taycan since they charge super fast or they’ll have higher degradation!
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