it's amazing how different your conclusions are vs the command zone
@punkypinko2965
7 сағат бұрын
Yeah most of this is subjective. It's why a ban list for casual play is not a great solution. I think we should have a ban list for competitive play only. And players could reference the competitive ban list to inform building their casual decks. Bottom line: players who are jerks will always find cards to stomp other players and say, "hey it's not banned so it's fine." No, it's not fine to be a jerk in casual play. The ban list also gives cover to jerk players, imo, because they'll just pick cards not on the ban list. We can't ban every single card that warps the game. Armageddon is not banned but no one plays it, for example. We don't need to ban Armageddon because people hate it and don't accept it in casual play.
@thewheelsman29
3 сағат бұрын
@@punkypinko2965Yeah, them talking about the Tergrid player is a perfect example of why most of these things should be unbanned. Some people really like these cards despite knowing what they feel like and most of those people will ask before doing something that others might hate. My favorite deck is Eldrazi titan tribal and I ask before playing it and warn people what it's like if they agree before asking you f they're sure. That's not going to suddenly change just because I get to have Emrakul in the deck. The majority of people don't take pleasure in nonconsensually playing things that others will find unfun, even if they enjoy it. I think Braids or Emrakul are safer unbans because people know what that stuff feels like while something like Primetime doesn't feel awful to play against so people will run it despite it often propelling people so far ahead that no one can catch up. Even then, I'd still be for unbanning that too.
@Metherel
11 сағат бұрын
As somebody who usually leans towards less bans this so far has been the best conversation for counterpoints to keep cards banned - however I think a lot of this discussion is being made without keeping the new tiers in mind. Biorhythm would suck to have to worry about in lower tiered decks, having to always keep creatures around just in case - but it would be an extremely fair wincon in a tier 4 setting where every player is slinging the most busted spells. lots of these cards in conversation can be applied this way
@skylarthoma5353
11 сағат бұрын
That is an excellent point, but I think it depends on the tiers system being both widely adopted and well respected. There are enough new players that don’t know enough about the banned list as it is, and I can see a lot of less informed players - which is the majority of players tbh - not recognizing the tiers of those haymaker cards
@derekgarcia3069
11 сағат бұрын
Even ignoring the tiers, some of the cards were banned many years ago, and it's a very different format now. For example, the argument I've hard about Recurring was "it becomes the only card they play". So what?! If that's how the person (me for example, lol) wants to play, why is that an issue? It's not like it would suddenly hit the table in every single pod (even if it got reprinted). I'm not against the fast mana bans, but the EDHRec crew seem overly cautions about some of these cards coming of f the list.
@danaroach29
11 сағат бұрын
Since we don't have the specifics of the teir system yet we tried to do this without taking it into consideration, but depending on how it shakes out that's a fair point.
@mathimus55
10 сағат бұрын
It's hard to keep the new tiers in mind for a current conversation when we don't know what the new system will look like. We got a rough structure but Gavin and Aaron both said pretty explicitly that it's a very early version and likely will change.
@cread13
5 сағат бұрын
Biorhythm is not hi power card it'll only get used in low power to mid power games were its a some what decent win condition. In high power its to over costed and the other 3 players are all likely gonna be sitting on answers to it.
@Paladinecleric
7 сағат бұрын
A lot of talk about how coalition victory and biorhythm can never be unbanned, 0 talk about how thoracle combo achieves the exact same thing for 3 to 7 mana. Either ban thoracle or unban rhythm and victory.
@sgjuxta
3 сағат бұрын
And Oracle didn't cost you eight mana across all five colors only to be stopped by a disenchant on your Leyline of the Guildpact. I'm convinced Coalition Victory is banned because, at the time it was banned, the people running the banlist were allergic to removal...like seriously. It costs EIGHT mana, and every single color has the ability to MEANINGFULLY counter it, not just blue.
@danaroach29
3 сағат бұрын
The argument against banning Thoracle is that it seems to be a card that people have largely self-regulated to just cEDH tables, and the worry would be that as clearly not cEDH cards Rhythm and CV wouldn't have that level of pressure. Personally I'd ban Thoracle myself too, but that's me.
@TheStephenation
3 сағат бұрын
@@sgjuxta It's largely been memory-holed because the old EDH website/forum is gone, but something key to this is that the statements from the RC back then carried this theme that they couldn't ban every powerful card, but that they focused instead on banning the subset of jank cards that casual players would think would be fun to play, but which the RC knew would actually not be fun to play. They had a mission to save casual players from their own ignorance.
@jagteq
11 сағат бұрын
Gotta say, I loved your discussion on this more than any others I’ve seen so far. I don’t personally subscribe to the idea that a smaller banlist is automatically a better one, so for me cards that are already banned have a very high bar to clear for unbanning. Primeval Titan was on my list more because it would be interesting and flashy while maybe not being broken than because I thought it would be fine. I’m way closer to “no unbans” than any particular card, and I appreciate that you seem to be in a similar boat. Also, I think it’s work noting that rewarding death threats by unbanning Lotus or Crypt would be an enormous mistake, both for the present and the future. I sincerely hope WotC had enough concern over the safety of their people not to give awful people the message that death threats work.
@danaroach29
11 сағат бұрын
Over a long enough timeline I'm gonna guess $ > doing the right thing, but I guess we'll see.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
Forcing cards that people want unbanned to stay banned because of a very small minority of the community is something i'm very much against. Unban those cardsI like them, and I didn't give anyone death threats.
@sasorispupet
11 сағат бұрын
I want banned as commander back. We’re playing a 4 player game tracking 40+ game pieces at a time. We can handle banned as commander. We can handle it.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
You and I can handle it, sure. The rest of these people [looks around the room] I'm not sure the rest of these people can handle it. That one dude over there got a D6 stuck up his nose, and the guy next to him is trying to eat a food token.
@jaredrosa3415
5 сағат бұрын
It's not any harder than using the mtg companion app to see if a card is banned. If looking up to see if a card is banned is difficult, how are you all building decks in the first place. Complexity shouldn't be a factor, look at Commander Damage. Partners exist so in any given game there could be eight commanders, and you have to track those 8 damage types for each player. That's pretty complicated, but it exists. There's even having to make the distinction between is it a commander or a copy of one, as copies aren't commanders.
@nathanstruble8587
11 сағат бұрын
Players have a much easier time advocating FOR themselves rather than AGAINST themselves. When a game piece like stasis locks people out of the game it is easy for the table to say "Hey, I did not have fun playing against that. Let's not play it next game." Boom! rule 0 success! This stands in contrast however to Primeval Titan, which is overly strong, but would require the person who is playing prime time to regulate themselves -> "I did too much that game and my opponents could not keep up. I should not play this card next game." This is a statement I have heard maybe a single digit number of times. Psychologically, I've seen people be more likely to advocate for regulation when they are being slowed, but it requires a level of self restraint to advocate for slowing themselves. This is pretty normal and not something to admonish, it just means that for the health of the format and the community we probably need some oversight ya know?
@nathanstruble8587
11 сағат бұрын
Oh also if I was a biorhythm player I'd just play Blinkmoth/Inkmoth Nexus and win after essentially any wrath :/
@danaroach29
11 сағат бұрын
@@nathanstruble8587 Would you though? I'm not saying people wouldn't do that, but that feels like the kinda thing most people would do once and realizes how boring it is and never do it again. Not everyone mind you, and I still don't think it's a good addition to the format, but it also feels like the kinda thing that after a hot first month you'd go a decade without seeing again.
@nathanstruble8587
10 сағат бұрын
@@danaroach29 oh whoops, yeah most certainly not. That was meant to be a hypothetical bringing up how easy it is to abuse, but I don't actually know anyone that would do that haha. It kind of sits in the Craterhoof category. One of the strongest and easiest ways to win, but sort of... "flavorless"?
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
@@nathanstruble8587 And yeah, people don't exactly self-regulate themselves with Hoof, either. Fair points.
@imaginarymatter
10 сағат бұрын
@@nathanstruble8587 You played a combo involving 8+ mana. You deserve to win.
@kenniron6313
7 сағат бұрын
If a brand new player has a banned as commander card in the command zone, I very seriously doubt they’re doing the broken thing that makes that card banned as the commander anyways (considering they aren’t very experienced). In my personal experience, if a newer player has a banned card, the other players at the table will let them know it’s banned for future reference and will either let them play it that game anyways or ask them to use it as a basic land if it’s going to make for a completely miserable game. In the scenario they’re asked to use it as a basic land, it’s usually explained to them why it would end up being a miserable experience for the table.
@IcedNeonFlames
11 сағат бұрын
About Library being banned, while Tabernacle or Bazaar being legal: the latter two are very archetype specific (stax and graveyard strategies, specifically), while Library can be thrown into any deck at almost no opportunity cost.
@danaroach29
9 сағат бұрын
Sure, but even being universally playable Library is probably less powerful than Bazaar or Tabby. The decks where those two are good they're straight busted. If I put Library in every deck I own it probably still draws me less cards less often than War Room. Still, I get your point. Ubiquity is never a good thing.
@RyanEglitis
6 сағат бұрын
I think Library is kinda not worth playing in most decks. Holding exactly 7 cards isn't as easy as you'd think. I think it's safe to unban, though I do know it would spike the price. I just don't think anyone is required to go out and get one - their deck will be fine without.
@ethanglaeser9239
11 сағат бұрын
I agree with Dana's description of Commanders being dodgeable.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
I am occasionally a wise old man. Generally I'm just an old man, but on occasion I'm wise.
@FernandoGonzalez-hu3id
3 сағат бұрын
@@ethanglaeser9239 only if you aré lucky enought to get to pick who do you play with, some of us aré not
@Rule0Podcast
9 сағат бұрын
What's wrong with "woooo?" Primeval Titan is a rollercoaster of fun. It's the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. Side note: the second biggest casualty of the CRC change was losing the drive behind silver-border normalization.
@thechikage1091
10 сағат бұрын
None of the recent bans can be unbanned, or else the people who sent the death threats won, and those people will know that it works. Even if you could rationalize unbanning any of them for game balance reasons, it would just give legitimacy to the threats made against the RC members. Those people need to know they are not welcome here, and should be shut out of any and all social circles until they can act responsibly. Edit: Green has been the most powerful color in casual EDH forever and I sincerely believe it is because it can just produce unfettered amounts of mana without recourse, as land destruction has become super taboo. People will use mechanics like land destruction just to be annoying, rather than using it to keep Green players at bay, or taking out a super powerful utility land that has shot someone ahead. There need to be answers to lands like Gaea's Cradle and Itlimoc and Cradle of the Sun (Strictly better Gaea's Cradle once you transform it). But we can't have nice things because people who play this game will just go "nobody allows me to play Tergrid :(" and then go on to waste everyone's time for an hour and a half.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
Agreed.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
No, the recent bans should be unbanned because they shouldn't be held hostage by people saying a very tiny minority did death threats, so the half of the community who wants them unbanned, conveniently, doesn't get what they want. Leaving the other half of the community saying they shouldn't be unbanned, getting exactly what they want.I don't think it's a coincidence.
@gabrielharvey956
Сағат бұрын
@@cablefeed3738all the bans were warranted they all deserved ban , all of them felt like slaping à hundred dollar on the table and saying : ill begin the game at turn 3 or 4 because I paid , only reason ppl are mad because they lost money buying OBVIOUS OP TOP 3 CARD OF A FORMAT they dont fkn understand how a mox and a black lotus is p9 level
@SamySapphyre
11 сағат бұрын
Yessss I never thought I’d hear Eddie Izzard being mentioned in MTG but this was the crossover I needed!
@SamySapphyre
11 сағат бұрын
Look over there, there’s a badger with a gun!
@ticklemeozmo
10 сағат бұрын
Je dois partir maintenant, parce-que ma grand-mère est flambée.
@cablefeed3738
9 сағат бұрын
Obviously excluding Anti, Dexterity, Conspiracy, and Un cards, I feel like there are only really ten cards that under no circumstances could ever could be unbanned. Limited Resources, Shahrazad, Divine Intervention, Time Walk, Trade Secrets, Channel, Lutri the Spellchaser, Prophet of Kruphix, Time Vault, and Karakas
@cigbhungus3359
7 сағат бұрын
Nah man, unban Shahrazad, free my mans
@TheStephenation
3 сағат бұрын
Divine Intervention is already legal (and always has been).
@cablefeed3738
3 сағат бұрын
@@TheStephenation yes, and it should be banned and never unbanned.
@Whateverworksman93
11 сағат бұрын
For the "why do we even need a banlist" argument: games need updates. Especially one as complex as TCGs. In other games if some unintended interaction would break a game, go infinite, or generally ruin a play experience, it gets patched/erratad/banned/etc. As stated, if your playgroup is cool with it then that's great for you, but as a BASELINE commander must have some amount of curation as a casual format. Some cards were never meant to be used with 4 players (Rhystic Study), some cards are frankly just badly designeds (Jeweled Lotus, clearly), and others are just too easily abusable. Cards fitting these criteria are unhealthy for the baseline of the format, and even if some people would like to play with everything including the Power 9 I do not believe it would better the game. Your local soccer league can do away with offsides if you want, but it's asinine to want that for all of soccer as a whole. Card games have the unfortunate added baggage of cards having real world monetary value tied to them, so bans or updates can feel bad, but in my opinon that should never be a factor in considering the health of a format, ANY format, not just commander. At the end of the day, it's cardboard with ink. And if WotC's track record designing cards specifically for commander is anything to go off of, get comfortable with proxying.
@orpheos9
10 сағат бұрын
30:24 Matt's point about he would rather see proactive "fun" cards(Primetime, Prophet) rather than denial cards (Upheaval) is exactly why they should stay banned or wait until we see if players actually take up the bracket system. Joey's point that I completely agree with is that those fun cards are the ones where the banlist is holding back the most people from playing, so it would have a much larger impact on the format. I think people should be able to play with Primetime, but only if when I sit down to the table and people say "I dont want to play against bracket 4 decks", we dont have to see any primetimes.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
Yeah, proactive cards are the ones people tend to have the least self control with how they use them.
@mooninites755
8 сағат бұрын
I legitimately do not understand Joey's argument against Biorhythm and/or Coalition Victory. I fail to see how these cards would "hang over people's head" for deck building or games. I don't immediately think that I will run into a Thoracle + Demonic Consultation just because someone sitting across from me happens to be playing a UB(+) deck.
@danaroach29
3 сағат бұрын
Because Thoracle is so closely associated with cEDH, that pressure has in large part kept it away from casual tables. That pressure wouldn't exist on cards like CV or Biorhythm, so they might be a problem at tables in a way Thoracle isn't. I'm not sure I necessarily think that pressure does enough to keep Thoracle in check, and I personally would ban it with extreme prejudice, but I do get the logic of the argument.
@TheIceman101418
10 сағат бұрын
It's interesting to see the prime philosophical difference between ya'll and Command Zone's take. The underlying take I see here is that this panel largely does not trust the community and lower level tables to self regulate. I personally do not agree but I get being cynical towards people having self control. I think the numbers on things like Armageddon, and land destruction as a whole is just one of many examples Prime time is really not a major issue when compared to things that are illegal. Things with high Salt scores usually have a relativley low play rates, not all of them but a good majority of the top20 for sure
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
This is my opinion and mine alone, so take it with a huge grain of salt; the difference I think is the CZ folks generally play in a pretty hermetically sealed environment. As far as I can tell Josh isn't showing up at a random LGS in northern Minnesota or rural Ohio and jamming games with complete strangers. That is something we do, and that impacts how we view things like bans. That's not a criticism of them either mind you. Josh would get mobbed if he did that, and his life doesn't lend itself to doing that, or spending all day at a free play table at a MagicCon, etc. But it does impact how they see things like the avg game of EDH.
@TheIceman101418
9 сағат бұрын
@@danaroach29 That is a very good point Dana that I did not think about. That does help me to understand your take, Joey and Matt's as well. i personally have seen a lot of self control from players in my LGS and personal group. I also might be self projecting as I do consider how cards would effect my play group when adding them to the deck, doesnt mean that is true of most casual tables. Gives me a bit to think about Also thank you for the reply.
@SunSwipePrime
3 сағат бұрын
After seeing many other discussions on the ban list, IMHO, this has been the best. It's not just a simple too powerful or not too powerful discussion. Addressing the purpose of the ban list, the different areas a change could affect, and how people who have set play groups are impacted was a refreshing change.
@BloodMoonGo
11 сағат бұрын
The best way to evaluate the ban list is: If you want to play the card, but would be miserable sitting across from it, it needs to stay out of the format. If the card warps the format into "who can control it or cast/abuse it the most times per game", it needs to stay banned. Prime Time, Sylvan, and Emrakul warped the format into who can bribery first, cast clones, or flicker the most. These need to stay out
@Gabahulk
11 сағат бұрын
Following that logic, we should ban all stax.
@jasperfuhs4988
11 сағат бұрын
@@GabahulkI actually think the older stax cards like stasis and winter or should probably be banned because they warp the game completely for only 2 mana, but there are plenty of stax cards that are fair like the Thalias and Rule of Law
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
People generally aren't good at thinking of others, which is why I personally think the RC did a good job being EDH's parents and setting bedtime rules that we might not have followed on our own. I also recognize that may come across as condescending and not be a popular opinion.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
@@Gabahulk There's absolutely people who think you casting a five mana removal spell is stax.
@thechikage1091
10 сағат бұрын
@@Gabahulk If your deck falls apart to stax you are not building decks that draw you enough cards. Please stop laying your games in the hands of the top 15 cards of your library
@RyanEglitis
6 сағат бұрын
Rhystic is _exactly_ an anti-social card. Just paying the one to pacify it, suddenly one player doesn't pay the one, cause _their_ cool thing is "worth it, guys." Alongside the fact that it draws a ton of cards, but not in one fell swoop, it gives worse players an inaccurate picture of who's the threat at the table. I think it's by far the most ban-worthy card out there today (even moreso than sol ring).
@alexliang1040
11 сағат бұрын
Panoptic mirror combo can be played with 5 mana actually at the risk of exposing it for a turn cycle. You can imprint on your next upkeep in response to the trigger
@chaseclosed3771
8 сағат бұрын
I wanted to point out the reason ondu spiritdancer is in the deck is because it combos with secret arcade to give you as many enchantment etbs as you want + an infinite army if you won't draw yourself out. Otherwise you are correct about the other interactions with other rooms.
@verigone2677
10 сағат бұрын
Ondu Spiritdancer would be far better in something like Estrid where you can create more Mask tokens or copy what ever you need most that minute.
@jacquesdespadas
9 сағат бұрын
Agreed. I have OS in my Yenna, Redtooth Regent deck, and she’s a powerhouse there. Rooms just aren’t her thing.
@k9commander
5 сағат бұрын
Marina is played as an enchantments commander, but she's primarily a rooms commander. The challenge is there just for the people playing rooms. Outside of rooms, Ondu Spiritdancer is good in the deck.
@James-mm8pr
10 сағат бұрын
Sylvan primordial concerns me less now. We have faster and more varied types of ramp. Our spells are more efficient and impactful than back in the day. There are better blink/reanimate/clone targets. Less powerful, and goes in less decks but still annoying. Prime time has the opposite problem. It has only gotten stronger as they make new lands. You could put this in any green deck and be happy with it.
@Cybertech134
4 сағат бұрын
Yup. The reason Prime Time should stay banned is the exact same reason Golos needs to stay banned.
@barrytdrake
Сағат бұрын
Thank you for revisiting this, after a few weeks of perspective.
@Belgy2308
9 сағат бұрын
For once, I find Command Zone's evaluation of the banned list to be significantly better than Edhrec. The arguments provided by Joey are flawed imho. The underlying root for a few of his argument is that the individuals playing/building the decks cannot build decks the way that isn't optimal and only will build optimally. With 1 deck maybe, but which commander player have 1 deck. They will have 5 or 10 or 20. There are variations on decks. I agree that a smaller ban list then add back if the community sees an issue. AKA Hullbreacher back in the day.
@jakeandy1
10 сағат бұрын
Primetime should stay banned. Every game becomes how to abuse it. Ever deck will want to either play it themselves, or play a bunch of clones. We have seen it before, and it is highly unlikely to be any different now.
@mathimus55
10 сағат бұрын
Every game NOW is about abusing their own strategy, I don't think primetime does anything revolutionary in that regard.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
I really hate to defend Prime Time because I don't wanna see it unbanned either BUT it's worth noting that back when it was a problem the legend rule also applied to the full battlefield, so people just generically ran clones as cmdr kill spells. The legened rule changed roughly the same time as Prime Time was banned, so we really haven't lived in an EDH world where it was legal and people weren't also running multiple clones as super value ways to remove someone's cmdr. Without so many incidental clones in decks it might be slightly less crappy. Maybe.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
So that was some of the most fun I ever had playing commander
@canamrock
10 сағат бұрын
The silver border joke makes me feel like there's a perfect space for an Acorn Tier List. A bunch of Un-set cards would be downright good for Commander, but some really deserve the klaxons and warnings before letting them into any general format.
@controlBreak
4 сағат бұрын
I like Joey's point about Dockside when it comes to primetime. Positive effects can be as bad for fun but are harder to negotiate out of the experience, and that's why having a banlist pay attention to those cards is a Good Thing.
@konata8657
12 сағат бұрын
the braids argument can easily be fixed by wizards bringing back banned as commander and making banned as companion for lutri
@Phoenix_9624
11 сағат бұрын
also, if braids was legal you could just not play fast mana or rituals and play her on curve, shes genuinely not as bad as people make her out to be unless shes dark ritual'ed out
@chasm9557
11 сағат бұрын
I've made that same exact argument for a handful of years now. I understand Braids being too oppressive when a deck is purposefully built around getting it out turn 1 or 2 consistently, but it's never seemed like an issue in the 99. Same with Lutri; there's already spell copy creatures that cost 2 mana like Doublecast, so even though I understand how it would be unfair for every RU deck to have an always accessible spell copy effect, I don't think it's too powerful to have access to it in the 99 since there are already Commander legal cards that do that for as little as 2 mana.
@derekgarcia3069
11 сағат бұрын
I would love Braids to come back. I don't even want to run her (or Tergrid) as Commanders, but I have decks where she would fit right in and not really improve the deck or make it more salt inducing. As others have said, if she's the Commander just "nope" the deck out or if it's a friend, let them be a jerk every few months and get a game in with it!
@imaginarymatter
11 сағат бұрын
I don't think you really need banned as Commander. Braids as a commander isn't problematic at higher power levels so just throw her in bracket 2 or something.
@Phoenix_9624
10 сағат бұрын
@@imaginarymatter exactly, if you turn 1-2 braids then you are playing a higher power deck, and if you play braids on turn 3+ then thats just a medium paced game, rule 0 talk can fix 99% of issues caused with braids
@Itachi__Uchiha
4 сағат бұрын
The rose tinted glasses on Prime Time is crazy. Prime Time is a relic of a bygone age. The point of limiting future design for non basics makes zero sense. If you want to grab a nonbasic land out of your deck you can do it a lot quicker and for way less mana.
@billlong4586
3 сағат бұрын
Frankly I'm all for a primetime unban. I only built my selvala deck because of my brother who passed away and he loved prime time, it's the one card he absolutely loved, I can't put into the deck
@littlemissinsomniac
7 сағат бұрын
40:22 Happily ever after is the care you are describing as an enchantment coalition victory and as someone who runs it i can say the interaction keeps it in check
@JABarnes18
9 сағат бұрын
The delivery on “wet fart” made my face make a wet fart.
@webbc99
5 сағат бұрын
Joey is talking soooo much sense here. Couldn't believe on some other popular commander channels they are saying to unban Biorhythm and Coalition Victory... insanity. You are SO RIGHT about Biorhythm. You do the "right" thing and Wrath a huge board, and the green player untaps, plays a Llanowar Elves, and Biorhythms to win GG.
@sgjuxta
4 сағат бұрын
Idk, Coalition Victory seems fine. As far as "win the game" cards go, it is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than cards like Thassas Oracle and Laboratory Maniac, as those are cheaper, in only one color, and the condition of emptying your library is very easy if you actually try to do it. Coalition Victory, on the other hand, costs EIGHT mana, is sorcery speed, requires you to be playing all five colors, and is VERY vulnerable to a wide range of instant speed removal...basically any effect that can be played at instant speed that can either remove creatures, lands, and/or other permanents that grant colors/ land types (like Leyline of the Guildpact) has a decent chance to completely fizzle this eight mana spell. But yea, if you ramp up to eight mana, have a Dryad of the Ilysian Grove and Transguild Courier in play, cast Coalition Victory, and nobody at the table has a Counterspell or ability to destroy a creature, artifact, or enchantment at instant speed, you win. But if we're counting on our opponents being potatoes, there's a lot of other *better* cards you could use for that much mana to win the game.
@TwoHanderVGC
3 сағат бұрын
@@sgjuxta I agree, too easy to stop. If you cast this, and no one has ANYTHING to stop you, your opponents deserve to lose.
@thewheelsman29
2 сағат бұрын
@@sgjuxtaAgreed and people are forgetting the fact that most people will play a card like Coalition Victory one time, go "huh, that was unsatisfying", and remove it from their decks. It's neither terribly strong nor terribly fun and keeping a card banned because it's not very fun is just weird. There are so many unfun cards to play against and unfun cards to play that they could never ban them all. It's like if they had banned Approach of the Second Son and people were like "that cards boring and unsatisfying, keep it banned". Who decides what's boring and unsatisfying?
@nickjoeb
10 сағат бұрын
Glad you guys went over things to add. I think that's a much better discussion to be having when we are finally trying to fix some long standing issues. Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe would be great to see leave. More fast mana and even Demonic Tutor I wouldn't mind exiting.
@danaroach29
9 сағат бұрын
So many games would be less annoying without Rhystic and Tithe.
@otterfire4712
8 сағат бұрын
This is where Brackets could come in and set them to level three or four and you can play at one ot two. I'd likely see powerful cards in those brackets, they're just not as toxic as those cards
@orpheos9
7 сағат бұрын
I really hate the argument of "we dont want people to have to take cards out of their deck if they rule 0 it into their private playgroup". If we really think the card is not healthy, then they can deal with it for the better of the rest of the community. If we have to rule 0 to avoid hundreds of socially unacceptable cards, they can rule 0 to include a couple cards into their private group and be forced to ask for permission if they want to play that deck at a pub. Silver border is a great example of how this works. You even say in the episode, you dont want to see these, but you are happy for people to rule 0 it into their own playgroups.
@Rococorico
6 сағат бұрын
12:00 Acknowledging that without mentioning the secondary market means blaming the Reserve List. Roughly the same reason: "these cards are too hard to come by, and we can't reprint them."
@gedtheflayer
11 сағат бұрын
They should either unban Gifts Ungiven or ban Intuition, and given the Reserve List issues you've mentioned, I prefer the ban to the unban in this case.
@imaginarymatter
10 сағат бұрын
I'm down with consistency although I lean unban.
@user-pr6jx5hz9m
Сағат бұрын
I think the missing context in this discussion is possible unbannings in combination with a bracket system. I think some of the less egregious cards would be fine when assigned bracket 3 or bracket 4 so that players have the opportunity to self select themselves into bracket 2 or bracket 3 if they want to avoid certain affects like Armageddon or, for instance Rhystic Study (which should be at least a bracket 3 card imo). I'm super looking forward to Bracket 1/2/3 tournaments and players figuring out what is best at each level and the bracket lists being adjusted in response.
@susannavulpes
11 сағат бұрын
This whole conversation is making me face a lot of things that I held as beliefs that I realize aren't as common as I thought. For example, self regulation is a terrible excuse to not ban or unban something. If anything, it should be a clear indication of what should be handled. If you already have to ask permission to play a deck (i.e. Tergrid example) it's effectively banned, but it's worse than that because players should expect to be allowed to play things that aren't banned. If you have a degenerate thing that's on a casual banlists, you're at least not under the friction of not being allowed to play the thing you expected to build and play. Also, I think that the old school "signpost" philosophy was a bad idea out of the gate. Banning a single example of a toxic play pattern but leaving the rest alone, just leaves people who would do that already with 1 fewer options, and judged for doing them. Frankly I think that this is the best use for a hypothetical bracket system, leave all the cards of certain play patterns in upper tiers to leave them out of casual play, and put the A & B of unfun synergies (i.e. wheels and wheel lockouts like Hullbreacher/narset) in different tiers, so you can use a more normal side of the effect without getting up tiered, you know, every one of those conversations where you have to go "but I'm not *that* kind of 'blank' deck". And candidly, I think the history of loose banlists philosophy has led to commander groups having a different philosophy than other formats in an unhealthy way, because I think that the constant calls for unbans for whatever niche use, without regards to the overall health of the format. Hell, the amount of people who had major outcries to this last ban as opposed to just saying "yeah that makes sense" astonished me. Any decision will always have people complain and terrible overreaction, but the idea that acceptance wasn't the majority opinion blew me away. Especially because I genuinely think the banlist could safely be two or three times larger and the game would be better for it. But I guess people have huge emotional ties to a lot of this format, so I guess I get it
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
I'd triple the ban list if left to my own devices.
@Skimoe85
8 сағат бұрын
Faster games are much better than slower games and lets everyone shuffle up and play again. Losing agency is the worst and makes the game lose favor ability as something someone would be willing to come back to if they are new, especially new players.
@1notdeadfred
10 сағат бұрын
Real talk about Panoptic Mirror- I would be perfectly happy with it banned or unbanned, but if you want a good play experience, the spells being imprinted should really be less than CMC4. And it would be so much more fun too. Casting Lightning Bolt every turn feels good. Casting Plumb the Forbidden every turn feels good. Casting Brokers' Charm every turn feels good. I see it similarly to how I feel about Nadu: it's an interesting design space but that doesn't make it okay to play as written. Printing a new version that's far more fair and far more fun would be fantastic.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
There's a lot of decks where people are already not imprinting counterspells or whatever onto Isochron, despite it probably being objectively strong in their deck. Would Mirror self-regulate in a similar way? Who knows. I agree almost no spell you imprint on it is fun to see every turn.
@smargio
10 сағат бұрын
Ill say im happy to leave everything banned. Maybe alter lutri to banned as companion. Otherwise i dont see the format improving if you unban anything. I say this as someone who is gradually building a liliana lore deck and would want to have Griselbrand in the 99 of it. But i think the format is better without them and i can always ask a table if I can play with a banned card and just use a substitute card if the group declines.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
My personal thought is zero cards on the ban list make the format better as a whole if unbanned.
@smargio
6 сағат бұрын
@@danaroach29 Yeah, I agree.
@JoeWatches
9 сағат бұрын
Some players actually do enjoy silver border cards.
@RyanEglitis
6 сағат бұрын
Yet Another AEther Vortex is the GOAT
@warrior_moose2422
9 сағат бұрын
I think the Coalition Victory argument is a little weak. Sure, with Leyline of the Guildpact it can win with two cards (and a creature on the field)… for 12 mana. I can do the same thing with Vito and Exquisite Blood for 8 in mono black and one of the pieces potentially in the command zone. I feel as though there’s no more reason to worry about a Coalition Victory in every five color deck than any other two card combo in any other deck.
@eepopgames2741
3 сағат бұрын
I think we are going to see upwards of a dozen unbans, all with the caveat "but we're putting them in Bracket 4 along with other currently legal cards with similar effects." Something like "An expensive spell that wins the game or invalidates a large part of the game that has occurred before it is cast often ends up not being too powerful, but feels unsatisfactory. With this in mind, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, and Expropriate are all Bracket 4 cards." Or "A large expensive creature that might be fine when its cast for its full casting cost, but in practice usually gets cheated into play somehow and has an outsized effect for what those cheat cards (Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, Reanimate) should provide to align with a satisfying game state. With this in mind, Jin Gitaxis Core Augur, Vorinclex, Emrakul, Iona, Griselbrand, and are Bracket 4." Given that the Phyrexian Praetors tend to be high on the salt scale in multiple incarnations, I would not be surprised to see something like listed two Jin Gitaxises in their statement and making a joke to hang a lantern on it. That is not necessarily what I want to happen, but its what I think is likely. I think honestly though, I am likely to be one of the players that likes their bracket system and would end up not playing in Bracket 4 games anyway, so it probably wouldn't make much difference to me whether the cards are banned or bracket 4.
@bonidc6732
10 сағат бұрын
At last the three of you together 🥳🥳🥳
@otterfire4712
8 сағат бұрын
I could see WotC comming out with a Commander set next year or so with reprints of some banned cards that they'll unban and load this into the bracket system at the higher tiers.
@ethanglaeser9239
11 сағат бұрын
I will die on the hill that Prime Time should not be legal in Commander. I will also concede that you could maybe put it in a top bracket, but I do not think it should be in "casual" Commander. It might be enough to ruin the format for me.
@brady3126
11 сағат бұрын
I played when it was legal. Totally busted. It was a race for the blue deck to Bribery it, clone it, recur it, etc.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
It SUCKED when it was legal. Games revolved around blinking, stealing, cloning, etc Prime Time. Would it still be that way? Not sure. For one clones aren't kill spells for legends like they used to be prior to 2013, so you wouldn't probably see as many incidental clones in decks. Still, my hunch is it would still suck to see. But maybe it would suck less than the other potential unban targets.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
It's some of the most fun I ever had.So yes, put it in bracket four, so I can say i'm bracket four, but you can't play stax, and you can't play combo. A bunch of mid range super o p decks battling it out, is the best time you can ever have
@billlong4586
2 сағат бұрын
@@danaroach29with the plethora of treasure generation it's really not any different for the ramp atp. And finding non basic lands is easy now and cheaper. Clones aren't kill spells now so while blinking may be an issue, the multiple copies likely wouldn't be.
@Qdrew78
7 сағат бұрын
If I could offer the concept of 5 bracket levels to WOTC and have the 5th being banned at sponsored events but healthy for powered up casual commander games. Then toss things like Prime time and even Emrakul into this bracket…. The tools we have to interact are so much more powerful and varied these days that we can meta game around these cards in our own play groups.
@commanderizer
9 сағат бұрын
The entire conversation ignored the tier system. Joey: I don't like playing against primeval titan. I therefore think that nobody should ever be able to play it ever. Tier 4 should be the wild west. Sure, you don't want to support Sundering TItan / Coalition Victory / Biorhythm play patterns -- put them in tier 4. Let these very interesting cards have a home SOMEWHERE.
@EDHRECast
8 сағат бұрын
Very much understand the "let these cards have a home somewhere" argument, but "I don't like it so it should stay banned" is a pretty egregious misrepresentation of what was actually said
@cannonballbrad9522
5 сағат бұрын
If we are sitting down to play commander, and Drannith magistrate comes out in casual, early, it IS against the spirit of the game. Print the same card but make it so players can’t cast spells from graveyard or exile. But having a commander is why we play commander. I wouldn’t mind seeing that banned. If you want to counterspell me that’s fine. I’ll eat 10 counterspells. But getting out a Drannith early in casual is something most players aren’t able to deal with. It’s also not a card a lot of people disclose. Higher power it’s expected to run into speed bumps like Drannith but at most tables it’s an issue. And it does come up. Often.
@James-mm8pr
11 сағат бұрын
The bracket system will be interesting, if Jewelled Lotus gets unbanned it will go into bracket four. That will significantly reduce demand. I’m sure WOTC can find/make chance cards that can be more universally played.
@cread13
5 сағат бұрын
Number 1 thing they should do is bring back the restricted/banned as list so cards like lutri can be used in 99 and comand zone as well as cards that are to strong as commander but ok in 99 can be allowed like braids.
@orpheos9
11 сағат бұрын
I really think they should hold off on unbans until they see how the bracket system shakes out. If it gets good uptake then they can start unbanning things like prime time and gifts ungiven and put them in a higher bracket.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
My guess would be we don't see any changes until the bracket system is in play for a bit, and to give some breathing room between whatever they change and the events of last month.
@TheStephenation
9 сағат бұрын
It finally clicked for me why my own ban list analysis seems to diverge so severely from much of the discussion I hear whenever the topic comes up. It's like you guys are treating this as a parole board situation. Any possible line of reasoning that can be used to make a case against a banned card in any way is given full credence, while the differences between the format as it is now and as it was when these cards were banned isn't examined. But if this is a parole board, then that makes sense! If the question you always ask for every banned card is "Can I think of a way to make this unfun?" then yeah, congratulations. You win, I guess. You get to justify the position that everything should stay banned.
@davidengkent7756
10 сағат бұрын
The only one that I kinda want back is Flash. TBH, I'm fine if everything else stays banned.
@dylanlondrigan4451
8 сағат бұрын
If Jeweled Lotus is unbanned I'm printing counterfeits and sliding them in every box of bulk cards I come across.
@Cybertech134
4 сағат бұрын
Matt has clearly already picked up his Primeval Titan and is coping hard.
@liketofish4383
6 сағат бұрын
As a fairly new commander player…. Played kitchen table in the late 90s and just came back last year to discover commander. I would much rather have access to material that makes me a better player and deck builder than for the game to be nuked to suit someone who is barely invested in the game at the expense of people with essentially their lives invested in the game. If I loose I most likely learned something cool (because I pay attention during other people’s turns) and I get better at shuffling. I don’t think they should cater to the new guy with the ban list at all…. Seems like a downward spiral to go down that path.
@vasylpark2149
11 сағат бұрын
Thr ban list is and should reflect moving away from the extremes. When we engage with any entertainment media where two or more people interact be it video games, sports, debates, card games, and even when we watch others we dont want to see it move to the extremes. We want it to be moderately paced, moderately balanced, to build up to a crescendo, and to watch all sides give it their all. Its why we go easy on the person who gets land screwed, we dog pile on the person who ramps ahead. We dont want to see games be over too quick or last too long. The goldilocks and the three bears theorem. The ban list can be summed up as: - incompatible with the format. - Too much resource accrual (card draw, mana) - too much resource denial (counterspells, discard, land deatruction, stax, tax) for too little resource input and/or too quickly.
@TheIceman101418
10 сағат бұрын
I think that is a broad generality of what everyone who plays commander want. There are a decent bit of tables that are still casual that like high power. People who like games being fast, or having huge splash wins, etc that are still casual players. Heck i know of multiple youtube personalities, people at my LSG (yes anecdotal but this is to provide evidence to the overall point) and my own friend group; who enjoy fast mana because it means shorter games and opportunities to get more games in.
@vasylpark2149
7 сағат бұрын
@TheIceman101418 thats true.
@herpderp66
12 сағат бұрын
Absolutely NEVER unban sway of stars. The part you are missing about sway is it will get cast multiple times in a game. It creates a loop that just keeps you from losing the game. You would think being at 7 life would end the game quickly after cast but it doesn't. I've played against this card enough to know exactly how it is abused.
@samuelstenru8318
12 сағат бұрын
If at 7 life, even if able to cast Sway of the Stars at instant speef, how would you avoid dying if attacked by 7+ power? You can't respond to taking damage before you die.
@imaginarymatter
12 сағат бұрын
Is that really an issue? It's 10 mana. Who is repeatedly casting this before someone can deal 7 damage?
@BloodMoonGo
11 сағат бұрын
Hard disagree
@slivermasterz5377
11 сағат бұрын
@@samuelstenru8318permanents also get shuffled back into your deck, including attacking creatures.
@samuelstenru8318
11 сағат бұрын
Got it So a requirement to KO with noncombat damage?
@justinwelsh9367
5 сағат бұрын
I really don't understand the argument "banned as commander would be too confusing". New players would have to look up the ban list and understand the rules before building a new deck from scratch. The amount of people who can't understand this is pretty close to zero.
@ARISUinW0NDERLAND
11 сағат бұрын
Uh, cake please.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
We're always in favor of more cake.
@Mobius_ll
9 сағат бұрын
As someone with a Necrobloom Gates deck I feel firmly confident saying Primeval Titan is powercrept out of being ban worthy. There's lots of ways to tutor any nonbasic out to address the utility problem. As far as how it catapults you forward, its six mana 2 lands. If you have ways to bounce, or haste, or copy it then you already have the capacity to abuse other cards just a bad. Gimme back my Primetime!
@TeaHauss
11 сағат бұрын
There are very few cards that I'd say need to stay banned for cedh's sake, and Gifts Ungiven is not quite on the same level as Turn 0 Flash win, but I'd advocate for it to be the spare #2 for the format. I'm down to see experimentation but 99.99% sure it'll take over.
@61ERock
4 сағат бұрын
Perfect curve to win with biorhythm. nothing turns 1-5. turn 6, 6 mana simic commander. Turn 7 end step cyclonic Rift. Untap and biorhythm.
@hellraiserward
2 сағат бұрын
I've seen a craterhoof do nothing. Biorythm even in the best of circumstances is a pretty massive shift in life, even if it doesn't knock a player out directly. In a world where selesnya exist biorythm needs to stay banned.
@verigone2677
10 сағат бұрын
I think cards like Biorhythm and Coalition Victory being in the format is the great equalizer that forces far more balanced strategies, Bitterblossom, man lands, more diverse counterspells, etc become far more valuable...MDFCs become more attractive, all in all some of these effects we steer away from have been outpaced and outclassed in the 5-10 years since they have been originally banned.
@Zachlareef
10 сағат бұрын
If I find myself thinking that I need to run Bitterblossom in a deck where it has no synergy for no other reason than to not die to Biorythym, I feel like I'm probably enjoying the format at least marginally less than I did before, and I don't think giving a "You win the game" button to 5 color piles is what I think of when we're talking about equalizers.
@robertprueter3292
9 сағат бұрын
Honestly, the only card I want unbanned would be jeweles lotus. Sure it's not great to play against, but it is a card that quite literally *only* works in commander. Everything else can stay banned
@Mecal00
12 сағат бұрын
When are they going to ban Island? Too OP
@lotrloreman
12 сағат бұрын
I tap 2 blue and counter the ban.
@imaginarymatter
12 сағат бұрын
Depends on the island. If the island is in a lake or river it's fine. But if it's an ocean island that's when it's salty.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
@@imaginarymatter Island is a perfectly fair card in my decks. It's everyone else who is the problem.
@stetsoncrobison
10 сағат бұрын
I want Sway of the Stars to be unbanned so I can put it in my El Minster deck, I would never cast it, but, I will 100% exile it to make 10 Faerie Dragon tokens lol I only want Golos unbanned to helm my 5 color 'cast from exile' deck. And I've always loved Emrakul, free her!
@robertfarr9410
2 сағат бұрын
I would rather play against only braids, cabal minion decks, then see primeval titian unban. That card was omnipresent when it was legal.
@valun360
10 сағат бұрын
I'm absolutely with Dana 9n banning "do you pay the x" especially when it's more than once a turn. And losing because player 3 has no self control or reasoning skills has ruined more games for me than all the other high salt score cards combined.
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
There's few things more salt-inducing for me than a third party's mistakes costing you the game. If you play blackjack it's the equivalent of the guy on third base hitting on a 19 when the dealer has a 15 showing and the table hasn't seen a face in the last half dozen cards.
@T_Peazy
10 сағат бұрын
I actually think this is a weird spot where if you brought back banned as commander it could free things up. Weirdly grisselbrand and iona are fine in the command zone but brutal in the the 99 where they can be reanimated and sneak attacked and such.
@TheIceman101418
10 сағат бұрын
dont forget commanders can be reanimated, you can choose to allow a commander to go to the grave
@T_Peazy
10 сағат бұрын
@@TheIceman101418 but then you have to get it into your graveyard. From the command zone. Which is challenging for 8 and 9 mana commanders.
@markwayne
8 сағат бұрын
i support a Banned as Commander list, i was disappointed in the previous end to that list. that said, Iona goes against a big part of the inherent nature of the format, and Griselbrand is outrageously aided by the starting life total (much like Fastbond and Channel). in the 99 they would be somewhat less aggressive, but still problematic and "offensive" to the basic principles of Commander. these two are likely best left completely banned.
@Victriona
8 сағат бұрын
"banned as companion" should exist for the sole reason that i like lutri because they're cute
@ryankoulos4614
8 сағат бұрын
I feel like banning cards because they are expensive or because they are reserved list is not a good argument. Survival of the fittest is not banned and neither is sliver queen. The current state of magic has plenty of other alternatives to still be able to do what you want without buying stupid expensive cards
@patonnight
8 сағат бұрын
I'm surprised you didn't even mention Tinker there. That's such an easy unban and unoffensive card nowadays.
@lohandebner
5 сағат бұрын
I'm feeling that content creators are pressing Wotc to unban cards, and guess what? We don't need it. There are 30k... 30000 cards to choose. Just pick another one! They need to put all their efforts on bracket system, and after it gets stable, like in 2026, then they should think in unban cards. Again: we don't need unban anything now, because it's a mistake do two big changes at same time.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
I want them to unban the fun, powerful cards because I want to play with them. It's that simple.
@lohandebner
3 сағат бұрын
@@cablefeed3738 again, 30k cards. If you don't have fun choosing another one, the problem is not in banned cards my dear...
@cedarbobedar7223
10 сағат бұрын
re: Biorhythm - is it significantly worse than Heartless Hidetsugu in my damage doubler deck?
@cedarbobedar7223
10 сағат бұрын
for context I cut Hidetsugu after I loaned the deck to a friend and he couldn't stop himself from firing it off even though he was the only one at an even life total and he was very aware of what that meant lol
@punkypinko2965
8 сағат бұрын
Maybe the ban list just needs to be renamed. "Banning" sounds so definite and harsh. It's not really a ban list, if people can modify or ignore it. It's a recommended "do not play with strangers" list. I don't know what the name for that would be. Do you? Let me know. For the record, I don't give two sh*ts about the ban list. Play whatever you want. If you're a jerk, that has nothing to do with a supposed ban list. I'm certainly not going to be the ban list police. If you play something that is completely warping the game and you keep playing it, I'm going to say, "What are we doing here? Do you want to play and have fun or be a jerk?" I play casual. Now, for competitive play, a ban list makes sense. Competition needs strict rules. Using a ban list in casual play is an oxymoron.
@punkypinko2965
8 сағат бұрын
What about all the cards NOT on the ban list but some people play and stomp other players? The ban list should be for competitive play only. A ban list in casual play is misguided. In casual play, it's all about finding the right balance with the people you're playing with. I think the solution, in casual, is to have several decks of different power levels, and then to play the deck that best matches the group's power level. In competitive play, a ban list makes a lot of sense. In casual play, a ban list just makes things worse, imo. Casual players could still reference the competitive ban list to inform their decisions. But clearly there are casual decks that could play certain banned cards and be fine. So can cards NOT on the ban list be played without regret casually? No! The ban list causes as many problems as it solves in casual play. I could claim (when Nadu wasn't banned), "Hey Nadu isn't on the ban list so I'm free to play it casually." Would that make any sense whatsoever? No.
@Sparrow141420
3 сағат бұрын
I disagree about Ondu.
@davedeboy5726
11 сағат бұрын
Why wasn't there a card with the kings jewel!? There is only 1 of those just like the Ring of power-the One Ring.
@Smashman4ever
10 сағат бұрын
"Who wants to unban Primeval Titan?" 👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋 "Who wants to play *against* Primeval Titan?" *silence*
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
Yep.
@cablefeed3738
4 сағат бұрын
I wanna play against primeval titan
@Auzweed
3 сағат бұрын
Commander is casual. There’s no ban list at the kitchen tables kids. Just play nice. 👍
@thomasmenard1799
10 сағат бұрын
Coalition victory is a 4 card combo thats counterable and expensive.
@geegnomes
6 сағат бұрын
Mana Crypt -- BANNED AS COMMANDER
@jaredrosa3415
5 сағат бұрын
Unban everything, and put everything on the current band list as tier 5 cards lol
@gnomersy1087
8 сағат бұрын
Frankly I'd argue that a more extensive banlist leads to a healthier more fun format (Play vintage vs Legacy and tell me which one is more degenerate or Modern vs modern with no bans) hence why every single format Wizards runs outside of Vintage has consistent and extensive ban lists and updates frequently. That said I'd also be frankly appalled if they were to go in and unban Crypt, JLO, or Dockside. At that point you're tacitly teaching people who issued death threats and doxxed people that if they want to change things death threats and harassment are not only acceptable but good strategies to do. If they don't keep those banned on principle alone at this point it would be pretty gross.
@Rococorico
5 сағат бұрын
What a relief to hear you guys being reasonable, unlike what's been happening on the secondary market. I think the only "safe" unbans are Braids, Gifts Ungiven and Sway of the Stars, because they all have legal and playable redundancies already, so them staying banned doesn't communicate anything worthwhile. Most others that could fall in the same argument are RL cards and I agree that unbanning any of those doesn't accomplish anything positive.
@dragonmz5274
12 сағат бұрын
If they pick any of the recent cards to unban, I would bet dollarydoos on Mana Crypt over JLotus
@ashadeofnight
5 сағат бұрын
So you did an hour of chat to say you dont want ANY unbans? None???
@timbombadil4046
10 сағат бұрын
Sway of the Stars would be fun with all the exile mechanics like Fortell, Plot, Adventure, Suspend, etc...
@cread13
48 минут бұрын
Both Biorhythm and Coalition victory should be unbanned because of the fact there are way more powerful i win the game cards that people dont even bat the eye at but people quake with fear over these 2 for some reason. Just like they said with the other cards self regulating these 100% would people are not gonna just jam them in every deck that shares the colors. They both require build arounds to an extent and are super easy to interact with.
@reedboriack930
8 сағат бұрын
If they banned rhystic study what is the point to playing mono blue? The only way you can win in mono blue is drawing into a combo.
@danaroach29
3 сағат бұрын
I won two games this Wednesday night with a mono-u deck that is not only not running combo, but is not running any instants or sorceries.
@reedboriack930
3 сағат бұрын
@@danaroach29 sounds interesting. I’ve never been able to create a mono blue creature deck that compete with my play group.
@kylestafford712
11 сағат бұрын
I want to play dockside!
@danaroach29
10 сағат бұрын
Perfectly fair. I think it's a crappy card for the overall health from the format, but I simultaneously get why someone would want to run it.
@austinturgoose
9 сағат бұрын
Sooo…no unbans?
@MadMage86
8 сағат бұрын
The card that screams the most unbannable to me right now is Balance. Think about it from a 'design space' perspective - removing MLD, fast mana and potentially big mana from basically all of the lower brackets means that Green's monopoly on land-based ramp will be huge. Balance is then the only card capable of culling that advantage without severely hindering the rest of the table and is the most likely unban in my opinion. I am really amazed it got no mention. I also want to advocate for reversing the bans on Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and Dockside. A bracket system effectively solves the issues these cards cause enough to justify a reversal and I honestly think the reason they kept the door open to unbans specifically was to reverse these bans.
@Pchriste
8 сағат бұрын
Between this video and the command zone podcast video really does just solidify one thing. Rule zero. How many casual people know about the ban list. And even after that, how many people look at different cards and say "why is this banned?" That's why you're group/pod/LGS should just have a rule zero talk. I'm in the camp that the ban list is just guidelines.
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