I've never been bothered by the Prophets taking out the Dominion fleet, specifically because Sisko does NOT respond to the mine field going down by just praying for their help. He goes into the wormhole, and starts preparing for a suicidal defense to...buy time? Collapse the wormhole from the inside? Create a field of wreckage to get through? It's not clear. But the Prophets contact HIM, insisting he must not sacrifice himself because of their designs. And he points out the obvious: he is choosing what to do. And if they want him to make a different choice to live, they need to help him. It is not like the Christian miracle where someone prays, and suddenly all their troubles resolve. it's an Old Testament argument between Man and God.
@maltheopia
Жыл бұрын
Also, it felt like a natural culmination of Sisko's development throughout the show. It wasn't just some Chosen One bullshit pulled out of the writer's ass to advance the story. It felt like a logical progression of the unanswered questions in Emissary, most importantly: do the Prophets really understand the impact of making choices when you don't know everything?
@Arikayx13
Жыл бұрын
And it happens in their territory/subspace. Rays don’t come out of the wormhole and blast away the ships, they were ants traveling through the prophets living room under the presumption no one would get out the broom.
@TF2CrunchyFrog
Жыл бұрын
Exactly. The Prophets and their powers and connection to Bajor and Sisko had been established since the first episode. And I found it far more realistic and believable that the Prophets would finally react to a fleet of enemies passing through their wormhole home than the idea of Sisko with his single Defiant somehow managing to shoot down an entire Dominion Fleet in the wormhole in a big CGI battle. Also, godlike beings with reality-bending powers have been part of the Star Trek universe since the TOS days, and in TNG we had the Q. The Prophets are technically _less_ powerful than the Q.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
The Prophets are also there from Episode 1, and have had influence before with the orbs. It's actually set up that The Prophets COULD do more... but haven't.
@MrSaywutnow
Жыл бұрын
"it's an Old Testament argument between Man and God." And by that point Sisko had already punched one god in the face, so you know that he wasn't going to back down a second time.
@ravenwilder4099
Жыл бұрын
As good as the war arc is, it's hilarious how the episode immediately after the war arc goes back to normal SO FAST, focusing on wacky hijinks at Jadzia's bachelorette party.
@myriadmediamusings
Жыл бұрын
That the war kept going and hung over the rest of the show was a great move and made this arc even stronger. Was a miracle they even returned and got this victory in the first place, which really raised the stakes for the rest of the show.
@matthewterlaga3022
Жыл бұрын
Another great thing about Quark in this arc is we get to see how much he truly loves his brother. He may belittle him and make fun of him a lot, but he does love him. When the chips were down, when his brother needed him most, Quark a man who’d rather talk and negotiate, a man who the very concept of violence is anathema to him, shot and killed two beings to save his brother. I love that they linger on him for a few moments after that, just standing there in shock and horror at what he’s done, even though they were jem hadar they were still people, people he just killed, and Rom snaps him out of it. That scene still sticks with me to this day.
@maltheopia
Жыл бұрын
That whole arc was great for the Ferengi. It actually took advantage of Quark/Rom/Nog's unique personalities and upbringing, rather than just trying to make them all 'time to step up!' new-meat underdog war heroes.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
@@maltheopia It honestly culminates in "The Magnificent Ferengi", where it shows more of how The Ferengi are and aren't capable of more.
@steelgriffin7716
Жыл бұрын
And he later did the same to save his Nephew too.
@thephantomeagle2
Жыл бұрын
This arc is why I adore DS9. They looked at the ugly parts of war.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
And they also looked at the dark side of humanity as a tool that sometimes gets brought out because there's no other choice.
@BobSentell
Жыл бұрын
I have no issues with the resolution. If The Sisko is the "Messiah" of the Bajorans, then it should make sense he should be able to call on the gods of Bajor to rescue them. And it is an interesting parallel to Exodus where the God of the Hebrews embarrassed the gods of the Egyptian Pharoah in an effort to free His people. The Prophets showed everyone the Founders are not truly gods after all.
@cameronmcknight1525
Жыл бұрын
It's this that reminds that Star Trek isn't just one thing. It's at its best when it's trying new things. Yes, not everything that it tries that's new is good (looking at you, Discovery), but disliking new Trek because of it not being like the old betrays the old. Enterprise found its footing when it tried new things in Season 3. Voyager got a little better after throwing a completely new element into the show after Season 4. The entirety of the Dominion storyline Season 2 and beyond changed DS9 for the better. And the Borg... despite what has became, it helped shape TNG and future Star Trek storytelling. Many of these could have played it safe, yet it didn't. Because Star Trek is based on exploring new things, whether that is in the stories or the stories themselves. This is why I'm excited for this new Era for Trek. I'm loving Picard S3 (and enjoyed most of S2). Say what you want about Disco (and there is plenty of valid complaints), it's trying to be different. Prodigy is a work of genius, IMO. Lower Decks is a breath of fresh air while not forgetting the old. And Strange New Worlds... this is how you adapt classic Trek while not simply just playing it safe. And it's so good. I'm excited to see what comes after Disco and Picard (since it was mentioned awhile back that they wanted to wait for some of their current roster of shows to end before starting on the projects on the back burner, a lá Section 31).
@KiltedCritic
Жыл бұрын
I like the direction Star Trek Online took with the Dominion fleet, that they were sent years into the future, not destroyed. So when they returned, they had to free the female changeling on the condition she confirms to the fleet they have indeed travelled into the future, and the war is long over.
@cwam1701e
Жыл бұрын
Agreed - it was a clever bit of retconning and made sense given the prophets experience of time was non linear!
@bthsr7113
Жыл бұрын
15:57 While I have only seen your reviews for Voyager, this is the feeling you convey quite well. From Neelix failing to be a jack of all trades guide to these new waters to the excess of the familiar to the reset button to annul bad consequences...
@daniellongworth7513
Жыл бұрын
The biggest problem I had with the Dominion War was the vast quantity of ships used and the sheer destruction that was bieng communicated. Not to mention how easy it became to destory jem hadar ships, cardassian battle cruisers, galaxy class starships etc by the end. Nobody seemed to have god damn shields except the Defiant.
@erickiernan1578
Жыл бұрын
The thing that always annoyed me about the prophets was that the Dominion didn't seem to have any interest in them. These were aliens that didn't have form you would think the changelings would be interested in something that is at least a little closer to themselves then everything else around them.
@scockery
Жыл бұрын
Michael Dorn said in a recent interview he was told that Deep Space Nine "they weren't gonna go five years." Maybe that was ploy to get him onboard the show. Who knows? Maybe they really would've cut DS9 short if Dorn passed on it (which came close to happening, ironically it was Rick Berman who convinced Paramount to accept Dorn's terms). It depends on who you believes, but word at the time of "official cancellation" was the decision to end Enterprise early was made in late season 2. Seasons 3 and 4 were running up the episode count for syndication packages. The bold course changes seem less bold and bit more like "Let the new guy write the final issues of the cancelled comic."
@danielallen3454
Жыл бұрын
I cannot *WAIT* for 'A Game of Pool'. It is, hands down, my favorite episode of TTZ.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
Honestly, any Twilight Zone episode would be great, considering the quality of the show.
@BaconMinion
Жыл бұрын
I will always assert that the war should have ended in season 6, so that all of season 7 was picking up the pieces and seeing how things would develop. Of course, I'd also have Dukat just die, rather than become... what he did.
@toddfraser3353
Жыл бұрын
I am kinda afraid it would be like season 5 of Babylon 5. However I think they might have benefitted Voyager with a season back at home where the plots were to deal with the consequences of their actions.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
@@toddfraser3353 Or a season of adventuring through "new planets and some of those old ones that TNG visited" for Voyager. Also... yeah. Dukat SHOULD have died in Waltz.
@daniellongworth7513
Жыл бұрын
@@toddfraser3353 Season 5 of B5 was never supposed to be that way. So if planned properly a Season 7 post war season could have been quite good. They had a season 8 written anyways so they were capable. I agree 100% on Voyager, that ending is just.......fucking drek.
@toddfraser3353
Жыл бұрын
@@daniellongworth7513 the problem with season 7, much like B5 season 4. They did a good job with wrapping up the major plots, without giving momentum to a new plot. If they put more effort into the Telepath War in B5 seasons 3 and 4. Season 5 could had have that as a big push (better than Byron). DS9 season 7, mostly wrapped everything up. I guess they could had prolonged the Prophets vs Pahwraiths story line into a season 8, but I don't think too many Trek fans really loved that aspect of DS9 that much.
@daniellongworth7513
Жыл бұрын
@@toddfraser3353 Yup I agree. The problem with Babylon 5 was JMS never knew when or if he was going to get cancelled. IIRC the season 5 renewal came very very late and he felt he needed to wrap up the Shadow War and the Battle for Earth in season 4 or else. DS9 didnt have those issues, it was always going to go seven seasons. Regarding a season 8, if you watch the DS9 documentary they outline what season 8 would have been and it would have been awesome.
@KingOfMadCows
Жыл бұрын
I think the problem with the Prophets' interference is that it's too big. They should have done something much more subtle, doing something small to cause a big change. Like altering the past slightly so that the Defiant arrives at DS9 a few minutes earlier, just in time to stop the mines from being destroyed. Same thing with the Pah Wraiths and Dukat. Instead of the Pah Wraiths promising to give Dukat the power to destroy the galaxy, the Pah Wraiths should have promised to give Dukat the ability to change his past using knowledge of the future so that he can outmaneuver all his enemies and create the life he wants, where everyone is forced to bows down to him.
@TF2CrunchyFrog
Жыл бұрын
You have a problem with the Prophets doing something they had previously been shown to be capable of, inside their own wormhole they live in, to save "the Sisko" and Bajor..... but instead you want them to _use time travel_ to save the problem???? How would frikkin time travel not be the definition of a literal reset button? Also, preventing the mines from being destroyed would _not solve the problem._ And the Defiant had no hand in the mines being destroyed or not... that happened on the station.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
I think Dukat should have died in Waltz, and Kai Winn should have been the primary nemesis in the final arcs, possibly with someone else as a servant or something.
@KingOfMadCows
Жыл бұрын
@@TF2CrunchyFrog the Prophets never showed the ability to make an entire fleet of ships disappear in the wormhole. Nor have they ever shown the ability to burn the entire galaxy, which Dukat said the Path Wraiths were going to do. Name one episode where the Prophets did anything even close to making a fleet of 2,800 ships disappear. They have however, shown the ability to change time in the episode "Accession." In fact, existing outside of time, being able to manipulate the past, present, and future is literally one of the defining qualities of the Prophets. Preventing the minefield from being destroyed would have prevented the Dominion fleet from entering the Alpha Quadrant. And the Defiant could have prevented DS9 from destroying the minefield if it had arrived a bit earlier and delayed them from detonating the minefield for about 20 seconds, which would have given Rom the time he needed to shut the station's power off.
@smartalec2001
Жыл бұрын
@@KingOfMadCows The Prophets made Dukat's ship disappear within the wormhole in the first episode. And, indeed, in Acsession, they held Akorem and his ship until deciding to release him in a later time, and if they had chosen never to release him, it's probable he never would have been seen again. It's made clear the Prophets are the gatekeepers. Access through the wormhole is only possible because Sisko negotiates with them (he is the Emissary), and the implication is that they can rescind that permission if they chose. Although it was one ship and not thousands, there's no sense of the Prophets having any limits on their own turf.
@BigGator5
Жыл бұрын
A war that engulfed half the entire Milky Way Galaxy and Star Trek: Picard doesn't touch on the aftermath. What a crime.
@jokester3076
Жыл бұрын
Have you scene season 3?
@myriadmediamusings
Жыл бұрын
@@jokester3076 For all of the pomp and circumstance of Picard Season 3 being a TNG reunion, I don’t think anybody expected this to also be a follow up to DS9. Add in Jeri Ryan and all the stuff with Seven and it almost seems like Picard Season 3 is the wrap up and celebration of the entire 80s & 90s TNG era of Trek.
@BigGator5
Жыл бұрын
Jokester30 ...It should have been front and center season one. Instead we had to revisit the stupid plotline of The Romulan Supernova to justify those stupid movies. Then they threw in androids and other stupid plotlines that went nowhere. Hell, Star Trek: Picard Season One is a rehash of Star Trek: Discovery Season Two (tell me I'm wrong). Look, I could have written a better storyline that included both and have them make infinitely more sense: The Federation, still reeling from the Dominion War, suddenly finds itself with an influx of Romulan refugees after The Romulan Supernova. Deanna Troi, gaining a sympathetic vote because of the Dominion occupation of Betazed and a "Make The Federation Great Again" (topical, no?) campaign, becomes President Of The Federation and closes the border to further Romulan and Cardassian refugees. Soon the Klingons invade both crumbling former empires (even more topical!). Picard, horrified, goes on a mission to prove the Klingons had helped Deanna Troi get elected. Now tell me that you would have loved to watch that story or not! Star Trek: Picard Season Three doesn't get credit for what Season One SHOULD have done!
@paulanerruhrpott6188
Жыл бұрын
@@jokester3076 Just finished season 2
@jokester3076
Жыл бұрын
@@BigGator5 Alex Kurtzman gave Terry Matalas complete creative freedom to do whatever he wanted for Picard season 3, Terry brought in a new team of writers who worked with him before on the 12 monkeys. Season 3 is almost a completely different show, season 1-2 are not required viewing you can skip them entirely.
@George_M_
Жыл бұрын
The Founders vs Prophets part made me like this arc even more, well done.
@Emanon...
Жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed the break from episodic storytelling in DS9 in the final seasons. It really lifted up the show. Coincidentally Season 3 of ENT is also by far the best season.
@davidrohde2636
Жыл бұрын
I always thought that the profits sent the Domminion fleet into the future the same way they did to the poet, they would not understand what destroying them would be.
@mrScififan2
Жыл бұрын
Yes, I wondered what happened to them too….
@scockery
Жыл бұрын
I think it would be out of character to destroy the fleet. maybe, they sent them to the past in the opposite direction. THE TWIST: They create the Dominion!
@musicamaxima
Жыл бұрын
The issue with the prophets isn’t that they don’t work as a story element, it’s that the implications of their involvement are not honestly explored. Why, for example, do the prophets demand a payment from Sisko for their help? What does it say about the prophets that they were willing to delete the dominion fleet but not stop the occupation for 50 years? How can Starfleet continue to let Sisko hold his post given his apparently transactional relationship with the prophets? You see what I mean? The anger at this resolution isn’t structural, it’s philosophical.
@stryke-jn3kv
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I agree with all this. I just never felt there was enough weight to the moment. The Survivors in TNG is certainly no one's favourite episode, or even cracking the top 20 but I thought it handled that weight of a god like being anhilating so many lives a hell of a lot better than what took place here.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
The Prophets aren't omnipotent, they're just existing as themselves at all times that happen, so their actions are fixed and they know their actions. They're very powerful, but less that Q and even other godlike entities seen on the show.
@boobah5643
Жыл бұрын
The Prophets didn't stop the Cardassian Occupation because, among other things, the Cardassians didn't run their fleet through the Prophets' dining room.
@Franco18886
4 ай бұрын
The Dominion war changed the franchise in very positive way, Story’s like AR558 being someone who has been in the military and in combat can relate to this and the PTSD story with Nog. The show was brave and brilliant still relevant today, Wot the franchise needed, With action pact fleet battles for fans is one mane reason I love the show is the ships and head to head battles. Sisco as probably for me the best captain in Star Trek History. I really hope they make this new Dominion war series.
@thesegafan4472
2 ай бұрын
Nope changed it for the worse. This was a blue print for new trek of the modren day. To be honest if they wanted to fo somthing new they should of did a lower decks spin-off based off the tng episode from 1994
@Cliffdog01
Жыл бұрын
I would still love to one of the Star Trek Theory channels like @CertifiablyIngame cover who they think is the more powerful recurring god-like being The Q or The Prophets. Or do a Tier list for all the God-like entities of the Star Trek Universe.
@lessonslearned2569
Жыл бұрын
I love and I hate this. Great action and acting but it also opens the way to the atrocity that was the pa wraith storyline with Dukat.
@thecynicaloptimist1884
Жыл бұрын
I don't think that's fair to blame that on _this_ story, though. Pah-wraiths are a stupid concept but they were introduced well before this story arc. I'm with Chuck though, the final "battle" should have been between Sisko and Winn. Winn was absolutely Sisko's main adversary, not Dukat. It should have been a battle for the soul of Bajor, where Sisko's sacrifice is a spiritual one, not a physical one. Dukat should have disappeared after _Waltz_ but if they absolutely _had_ to keep bringing him back, then the person who should have been the one to kill him should have been Kira. If anyone was Dukat's nemesis, it was her. Or hell, have Damar kill him if you want some irony in there.
@captianmorgan7627
Жыл бұрын
The bit about Weyoun and Dukat and 'what evil plots will be foiled this week' becoming them in triumph makes me think of Dr. Doofinsmerch.
@boobah5643
Жыл бұрын
Except Doof had to bring in an alternate universe version of himself to win (and 'fixing' the divergence between him and regular Doof allowed our heroes to triumph.)
@captianmorgan7627
Жыл бұрын
@@boobah5643 IIRC there was an episode or two where it was shown what would happen if Doof won. The one that comes to mind is when Candice went back in time an busted her brothers for the roller coaster.
@Nitero_
Жыл бұрын
absolutely fantastic video as always. I really appreciate your content.
@CosmoShidan
Жыл бұрын
I felt that the Dominion war arc should have ended on Cardassia rather than Bajor.
@startrekmike
Жыл бұрын
When you really dig into the "behind the scenes" elements of Star Trek, it is pretty clear that DS9's Dominion War story worked because DS9's creative team was more interested in following Gene Roddenberry's original push (via TOS) to challenge the audience with strong storytelling, meaningful dramatic conflict, and even some measure of violence to drive home certain narrative threads. TOS worked because Roddenberry himself wasn't following the rules he later laid out and Berman would adhere to. This is something that I do really think the Trek fandom (as a general whole) should be more willing to examine. Roddenberry wasn't some kind of divine entity. He didn't pass along his rules of Star Trek to Berman via visions and golden tablets. When you really look into his post TOS years with Star Trek, you will find that Paramount wasn't really wrong to push him out of a lot of the creative decision making with the films. Likewise. You can certainly see why TNG suddenly got a lot stronger as his influence over it faded. It is no secret that Roddenberry absolutely loathed many of the more iconic, more narratively rich elements of the franchise (pretty much anything Nicholas Meyer did for example) and would even become a pretty negative force during his time with TNG. Deep Space Nine wasn't loved when it first premiered (due to the same fandom ignorance, entitlement, and stubbornness that hit TNG hard when it first started) but it has been gaining a higher place in the Trek fandom because it was actually a well written, thoughtful show. Some fans will decry the storylines as contrary to Roddenberry's rules but that is a surface level reading at best and just blind ignorance at the worst. DS9 never really broke Roddenberry's rules but it did examine them. It did dissect them and put them under pressure. It still stands as the only Trek show that truly challenged its audience to think on a pretty consistent basis. This is why it stands in such stark contrast to the very safe, very easy-going Voyager. DS9 had things to say in the same way that TOS had things to say. It wasn't afraid to take a stand on certain issues and it wasn't afraid to sometimes have a win also include a loss. It is possible to admire Roddenberry for his work on TOS while also acknowledging that his later work on the franchise did a lot to hold it back. Roddenberry should be admired but he shouldn't be worshipped. His words are not dogma.
@stryke-jn3kv
Жыл бұрын
It certainly wasn't just 'fandom ignorance, entitlement, and stubbornness' that hurt DS9 early. The show wouldn't have a truly good episode after the pilot until 19 episodes in and before that there's some genuinely awful efforts that had people turning off in droves. Of course the show got significantly better later but lets not rewrite the past that they didn't have some real quality problems to overcome to get the audience on board.
@startrekmike
Жыл бұрын
@@stryke-jn3kv So judging by your user-name, I am going to guess that like me, you clearly remember not just the premier of DS9 on television but also the general Trek fandom at the time (and even a handful of years before). I certainly do and have since spent quite a bit of time finding old magazines, books, and other content that sort of takes the "temperature" of the general fandom throughout the franchise's history. First let's get one thing out of the way. You say that DS9 didn't have a truly good episode before 'Duet' but that is very likely just your personal opinion and while that is fine, it doesn't really address what I am actually talking about. In order to understand the issue I am talking about, you really have to go back to the premier of TNG back in the 80's. At that time, the fandom had grown very used to TOS and the TOS films were still very much the face of the franchise. As far as the fandom was concerned, Star Trek was all about Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the rest of the crew. When TNG premiered, suddenly the fandom was faced with not only a whole new crew but also a whole new era of storytelling. This wasn't the "cowboy diplomacy" of Kirk and Spock, this was a kinder, gentler, more politically correct (at least for the time) Star Trek for the 1980's. Fans very quickly rejected it out of hand. Obviously not every fan did but the general conversation at the time was that TNG simply "wasn't real Star Trek" since it wasn't familiar. It wasn't Kirk and Spock. This had nothing to do with the quality of the episodes and everything to do with it just not being what people had grown used to. Come to find out, that progressive Star Trek fanbase wasn't quite as open to change as one might think. Fast forward a handful of years and now the fans that originally (and quite fiercely) rejected TNG had grown used to it and had accepted that it was possible to continue the franchise with a different cast. It certainly helped that Paramount put some effort into "passing the torch" throughout with guest appearances of portions of the original cast. People rejected TNG initially because it just wasn't the Star Trek they were used to. People got REALLY upset at even the basic idea of a new cast and that didn't totally die down until well into the 90's. Even in the early 2000's, there were still fans that got really locked into the "Kirk versus Picard" mindset that was VERY common in the 80's and 90's. This brings us to DS9. By the time it came out, people had grown used to and accepted TNG but now here is a Trek show without a starship. I vividly remember the fanbase getting super upset at the notion that "you can't explore with a space station and Star Trek MUST be about exploration!" The fanbase essentially repeated the same cycle they went through with TNG. DS9 was new and unfamiliar and the Trek fanbase was still very much stubborn about that kind of thing. To be fair. This isn't just a Trek fanbase problem. This is a fanbase problem in general. When you have long-running franchises, fans tend to think they can take some measure of ownership and that can drive them to become very entitled when they don't get the very specific thing they personally wanted (with no regard for the reality of television production or the others in the audience). Like TNG, DS9 did eventually get embraced by many of the same folks who stubbornly claimed that it "wasn't real Trek" when it first premiered. In DS9's specific case, it has actually been more firmly embraced because (despite your personal opinion) the overall quality of the show was more consistent overall when compared top other Trek's. There is a reason why the fanbase tends to only cite three or four truly poor episodes in DS9's first season while TNG's first three seasons are not met with nearly as much warmth overall. DS9 is slowly but surely taking its place as the Star Trek show with the strongest writing and strongest characterization for a reason. This isn't just my opinion, this is just how it is going and it is pretty obvious. This isn't to say that it is arbitrarily "the best" Trek show overall but when you look at how the fans talk about it, there is clearly a general consensus that it has the best writing and even the strongest start of any Trek show. Heck. There may even come a time where Enterprise is held at a pretty high regard. It is also getting more carefully reexamined and people are starting to really praise elements that were overlooked by the fandom early on (mostly because the fandom didn't like that it was a prequel and didn't like the theme song and judged it on those two elements almost entirely). Trek's fandom isn't special. They are just as petty, stubborn, and entitled as any other long-running franchise's fandom. They reject new entries only to embrace them later (and pretend they never rejected them in the first place). It is tedious to watch but it is the way it always seems to go.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
Roddenberry's TNG Trek and original Trek also don't match up, considering how unrepentantly patriotic for the U.S. Original Trek is. TNG rarely stepped out of "Space utopians encountering the new stuff and non-space utopians", but DS9 REALLY embraced both human nature and the vision of Roddenberry. The Federation DOES negotiate peace once The Dominion is defeated, and keeps striving for peace.
@startrekmike
Жыл бұрын
@@hariman7727 TNG did step away from Roddenberry's absolute utopianism Which does explain the rather profound improvement in storytelling later in the show. Some of the most famous episodes of TNG got that way because they were willing to challenge Roddenberry's ideals and put them to the test.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
@@startrekmike Fair point, I tend to view the next generation through rose-colored glasses, because I saw it when I was a kid/early teenager.
@1701EarlGrey
Жыл бұрын
10:19 - here is why I disagree with about mines vs Prophets comparison - it's not just that mines are technology and Wormhole Aliens are "magical" ; it's the fact that mines were conceived and constructed by our heroes to solve certain problem. It's ingenuity and creativity of character that won the day - it doesn't matter if tech itself is BS as long it's tech invented by our heroes. With Prophets things are different; it was will of Wormhole Aliens that changed the outcome not ingenuity of our protagonist. Yes, sure Sisko was involved but Aliens but could say "nah, we won't stop incoming fleet after all" and there was nothing that our heroes could do to change that outcome. You know, years ago, I've seen video in which some youtuber explained many reason why people didn't liked "Mass Effect 3" ending and IMO one of the best analogy he used was alternate scenario in which in "Both of both worlds" Q showed up and Riker convince him to snap his fingers and get rid of Borg cube and save Picard... You have to admit that wouldn't be very satisfactory ending, especially considering that our heroes would did nothing to stop the Borg.
@Frostbite351
11 ай бұрын
Starfleet getting a good kicking from the borg then the dominion.
@hermanmunster1054
11 ай бұрын
Why do people keep saying that cork was complacent during the cardassian occupation??? HE WASN'T! HE RAN WEAPONS FOR THE BEJORANS! HE WAS an information broker FOR THE BEJORANS! We even saw in Odoh's memories that Quark and Odoh's rivalry began because quark was part of the abejoran underground railroad and tried to hide some resistance fighters who Odoh was hunting(Quark failed the Bejorans were executed and Odoh was suspicious of quark forever after). I DO NOT get why people refuse to see quark for what he was!
@KnightRaymund
Жыл бұрын
Love this arc so much. Besides Sons and Duaghters anyway.
@mrScififan2
Жыл бұрын
Wonderful
@FiliusFidelis
Жыл бұрын
Ofcourse, it the Prophets truly are non-linear, existing outside of time, they're just going through the motions for the benefit of The Sisco. Always knowing what is, what was and what will be, therefore they are never truly in danger.
@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm
Жыл бұрын
The Recommending Holiness comment you to engage with this video.
@alexmacdonald1998
Жыл бұрын
I sometimes think that new star trek fails to be "real" star trek because it never seems to dwell on the nature of god. Whether its trelane or appolo or nova roma in tos, aardra, q, armus, in tng, the prophets vs founders. There was always an underlying theme that humanity is on the cusp of apotheosis. And it progresses too. From being hapless victims in tos, to having the agency to refuse in tng, as well as a look at the situation from the other side a couple of times, to finally being able to interact with gods in ds9. Sorry 4 rambling, hope this makes sense.
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
It does make sense. And I'll add that New Trek also embraces a nihilistic cynicism that WASN'T present in the prior series.
@ImperatorPenguin
Жыл бұрын
Would now be a bad time to mention that in Star Trek Online those Dominion reinforcements DID survive, and cause trouble for the Federation and friends as war was brewing with them and Species 8472?... doesn't really matter, not canon but still better then Neu-Trek.
@thecynicaloptimist1884
Жыл бұрын
Star Trek Online is just dumb shlock as far as stories go.
@maltheopia
Жыл бұрын
@@thecynicaloptimist1884 "but still better than Neu-Trek"
@thecynicaloptimist1884
Жыл бұрын
@@maltheopia Eh....
@TF2CrunchyFrog
Жыл бұрын
People who complain about how showing a war -- the Federation being attacked and having to defend both itself and the victims of the Dominion -- was allegedly "going against Gene Roddenberry's vision seem to have a strange idea of what Roddenberry's view of the Federation was, and seem to forget that even in the TOS era, part of the backstory was that the Federation had fought wars against the Klingons, and against the Romulans, hence the existence of the Neutral Zones in space. Klingons would kill Kirk's son. The Federation striving for peace does not mean they would have to sit still when attacked. Roddenberry tried to depict a hopeful, utopian future in which humans had overcome greed and racial prejudice, but that didn't mean an endless hippie party. TOS was clearly set against the backdrop of the Cold War, with the Klingons being stand-ins for the Russians, the Romulans the Japanese (just as the Cardassians would be stand-ins for the Chinese during the DS9 era, to judge by their architecture, as well as the Israel/Palestine conflict). Testing the Federation's commitment to peace and ethics with a war story sent a much stronger message than just showing everyone be happy and prosperous the livelong day. Showing Sisko having to choose between preserving his personal ethics versus sacrificing his peace of mind to the cause (of getting the Romulans to join the defense) in the episode _In the Pale Moonlight_ showcased that war is a dirty business and that sometimes there is no perfect solution but only the choice between a bad deed and a worse outcome.
@horaciosi
Жыл бұрын
(16:18-16:45) That's why, for all of its flaws, I still take Enterprise over Voyager.
@MrGranten
Жыл бұрын
I don't really see the parallel between his essay and A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones. If he means the dragons, they were a consistent thing in Dany's plot from the end of season 1 onward and were clearly growing throughout that time. It was clear they were going to be a big thing sooner or later, only held back by the fact that their mother was having trouble figuring out how to control them. If he means something from late in the show, I'd like to mention that by late GoT most people thought the show was fumbling the plot. Others have already mentioned issues of how Prophets are depicted, and will be elsewhere in the story, so I'll just say this brings up the issue of why the Prophets aren't called on elsewhere and why they respond here. If they were going to be used to be the near-gods who humble the would-be gods Founders, it should have been set up more to resolve this.
@aceshighdueceslow
10 ай бұрын
as soon as he started talking about GoT and the introduction of certain elements, I started cackling from remembering how stupid GoT was once they ran out of books to adapt
@MrGranten
10 ай бұрын
@@aceshighdueceslow I'd say the problem started earlier, by season 5 at least. They had two books and some chapters from a third to work with, and they still came up with stuff like the Dorne plot. Now sure, looking at this again maybe I was a dumbass thinking about it too much and Chuck's just saying having some big thing outside pseudo-historical medieval warfare and politics can be jarring and unwelcome even if it's not out of nowhere. That's true enough, but things like White Walkers and dragons being there from the start and at the time being welcome makes me think the real problem is how they were handled, not that they existed. And similarly, I'd say the problem with the Prophets is more how it was handled. Maybe if it was the culmination of something like Sisko learning how the Prophets think, or some great sacrifice to bring in their aid, or a triumph with a possible air of a deal with the devil as the Prophets make clear their morality doesn't equal Sisko's morality and their humbling of the Dominion is terrifying.
@aceshighdueceslow
10 ай бұрын
@@MrGranten well I think that the prophets were handled about as well as they could've been. They didn't appear out of nowhere, at least 1 episode each season involved them in some way and Sisko has interacted with them MANY times. I only just started watching DS9 about 6 months ago and when I got to this episode and after the reveal that Rom was late by a couple seconds my immediate thought was "welp, guess Sisko is going to go talk to the Prophets, because there ain't no way Bajor is getting Wolf359'd" and it worked. Is there a better way it could've been written? Probably, but it didn't feel like an asspull, while a lot of later GoT DEFINITELY had that vibe
@worldhearth1
Жыл бұрын
I had no problem with the Prophets as they were portrayed in Emissary (other than a lot of relatively boring screen time) - a species whose existence is so alien that they don't understand our existence, with their own being misinterpreted by the Bajorans. It's when they moved into the realm of mythological tropes that that paradigm broke down. They didn't annoy me because I hate mythology in Trek, but because it was bad mythology. Given all that the show had told us about the Prophets, the idea of them having a deliberate hand in guiding Bajor's destiny, let alone Sisko's, made no sense. They were timeless beings who did not understand linear time, so how is it that they've been deliberately trying to influence linear time? And then there were the Pah Wraiths, whose existence made even less sense. If you live outside of time, you have very few decisions to make, as Emissary brought home repeatedly. How do you have a concept of evil in that context? How can you even have an agenda?
@Arikayx13
Жыл бұрын
Whatever the prophets are they are most comfortable in some sort of subspace. They claim to be ‘of Bajor’ and the fire cave prisons are on Bajor so it seems that their original subspace home is the fire caves or inside/connected to Bajor. At some point they built the wormhole which contains extremely comfy subspace but there was a ruckus and the Pa wraith where booted back to their old home. As the fight between the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ prophets for control of the wormhole happens in the icky normal spacetime between the two subspace homes, they created a Sisko to teach them and act as their hand in normal spacetime.
@scarpad
Жыл бұрын
my only issue with the arc, was the breaks it took for james bond spoofs and Baseball games
@HebaruSan
Жыл бұрын
I just never liked "the prophets" because they're just aliens but the show wanted them to be more special than that, arbitrarily
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
But they're an alien force of nature beyond ordinary forces of nature. You literally only get The Q and VERY few other beings that are more powerful. They ARE literal gods... and that throws the normally atheistic Trek for a loop, even with Q and the other alien demigods out there.
@klyanadkmorr
Жыл бұрын
Ah during the Game of Thrones down time, I would tweet post none stop for fantasy only and dual fantasy/scifi fans to REWATCH or BING Star Trek Deep Space Nine! I posted A QUICK CORE 10-13 EPISODES LIST FOR ALL 7 SEASONS for any newbie or old fan to watch waiting for GoT next season Star Trek DS9 IS the Trek Game of Thrones (space empires/republics/planet/Quadrants fighting for power)
@nicolamarchbank1846
10 ай бұрын
Looking at it logically, the entire show is one gigantic civil war between two factions of God like beings manipulating ordinary beings into being foot soldiers in a war most know nothing about for reasons and motivations we actually know nothing about. We don't really know that much about the beliefs of Prophet or Pah Wraith followers if you think about it, we side with one over the other because one has as their Emissary Sisko and the other Dukat. Really quite Classical Greek when looked at like that. If Sisko was created the way he was, is it possible that Dukat was too? Talk about an argument about determinism and predestination, it's almost Calvinist in it's view of destiny, never mind that it implies two women (the two men's mothers) were violated to create these soldiers to fight this war and if so, it's probable that Dukat's mother stayed because of Cardassian family norms, not choice, so that's even more tragic. It also underscores the tragedy of Zhiyal as the daughter of the literal space anti-Christ having actual morals and trying to do the right thing when it matters, Garak as an violent, even evil man doing good things, the good Weyoun and Damar's journey from sock puppet to warrior for Cardassian freedom. This asks the viewers BIG questions about free will and destiny and when and if you would take a stand. I suppose this is why DS9 is my favourite Trek, it is a spiritually tinged morality play where the good guys could have lost, some bad people come out okay and where the bad guys are more complicated than that - beings who wish to be Gods humbled by actual Gods. Even stranger, all of this in a show co-created by Rick Berman, a morally complicated man of overly safe mentality when it comes to fiction and Trek in particular. Weirdly, the morality play element echoes for him, his worst instincts mostly contained (alas Jadzia), his ego mostly checked and good work commenced. He's basically a character in his own show. He had the sense to do here as he should have done with Voyager, set the wheels in motion, get out of the way for actual creatives to do their best work and been available to fight the money people for budgets as and when he was needed. And so the least Trekkie of all Trek shows of this era was so much better than would have been the case, for that at least, we should be grateful.
@Bringmeoneofthosechickens
Жыл бұрын
Just here to say Elim Garak was not gay!
@hariman7727
Жыл бұрын
PFFFT! Indeed. Two men CAN be friends without being gay. If only Hollywood and the activists/shippers would remember that.
@Bringmeoneofthosechickens
Жыл бұрын
@@hariman7727 thank you. If I could give your comment 100 likes I would. They make every male friendship in history into something sexual. I'm really tired of society pushing an agenda
@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm
20 күн бұрын
Of course he's not, he's bisexual.
@carlosrivas1629
Жыл бұрын
Solome Jens was too likable as a changeling, imagine an obnoxious Jennfer Coolidge in the role.
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