Hi ryddragyn! I just wanted to say thank you very much for this. Aside from being really pertinent to the discussion, it has been of personal benefit to me. I have never really received any coaching in drawing heavier weights than I normally shoot (I normally shoot 60 and 70 pound bows). But I have literally just gone and followed your advice in drawing my 80# @ 28" bow and it meant that it went from being a real struggle to get to 31" draw, to being relatively easy. I don't have a measuring device, but I presume that at 31 inches draw I am pulling nearly 90# and using this better stance I believe I could handle more right now. I am definitely going to be trying this more and starting to try and apply it to my shooting. I may come back with more questions! I'll also share this to the Schola Gladiatoria facebook page. Thanks again, Matt
@dace48
4 жыл бұрын
As this responses is now on Facebook, prepare for this channel to blow up in 3...2...1...
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
Good to hear Matt has improved his draw. I'd love to see a video about it.
@scholagladiatoria
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 I wouldn't say I have magically instantly improved, but this is a step in the right direction :-)
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@scholagladiatoria Nothing like the magic of good instruction. I've known people to pick up a rifle, and in a few hours of good teaching, they can shoot like the instructors. Kind of you to stop by to chat, and to mention Ryd. You could have easily ignored his advice, or taken it without mentioning him. What you did was honest and good.
@scholagladiatoria
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 I just want to learn and improve, so I'm grateful for the guidance.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
Ive got to say i really appreciate the videos you're making. You've been really helpful with your breakdowns, body symmetry and the biomechanics. Ive been doing my own research, and you're managing to reassure me that im doing everything properly. Im shooting upwards of 85 lbs now. No arm pain. No shoulder problems. I had issues with my lower back that are completely gone. I feel like ive maxed out my overdraw to the point where i cant physcially expand anymore without breaking the rules of human anatomy. All of this is possible with your help and i hope you keep making videos. Archery is painful and damaging to the body, it's just a fact but it can be significantly reduced if you follow the proper techniques. Keep at it.
@phelanyoung6770
2 жыл бұрын
This has been the single most useful bit of bow wisdom I’ve found on the internet. Absolutely beneficial, thank you so much.
@NUSensei
4 жыл бұрын
One of the things that really undermines comparative testing is that testers are often using different techniques for each side. Thus, you end up with confirmation bias. The outside of the bow is "easier" because the base form is different or incorrect. The way that Matt achieves his longer draw by leaning backwards (and scrunched up for his normal draw) is a rudimentary novice mistake on beginner archery lines. While he acknowledges the limitations of his experience, a viewer has to recognise the different mechanics that are being applied. As you identified, it isn't locked to which side of the bow is being used.
@vodoopupped9687
4 жыл бұрын
Thats why you don't start with 80 pound. For this porpoise a bow a 50# would be to strong.
@lapetite6452
4 жыл бұрын
Seems legit
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
Something you may find interesting. Shad seems to reckon that orthodox Mediterranean is not more accurate, which seems to be going back on what he said earlier. At that rate, he seems to believe his draw is the ultimate draw, which is superior in every way? He tried to say it's up to preference... but then he talks about all the non-preferential advantages to his own draw, at great length, which suggests you're idiots for not preferring the ultimate draw. _"I never said it's[the orthodox Mediterranean draw] more accurate, please, find me the quote. I may of said it might be more accurate"_ I also asked Shad how fast he thinks it's possible to get with his technique. He reckons he can get faster than Joe Gibbs... *_faster than Joe Gibbs using the SIL (Instant Legolas) device._* _"I'm expecting that with a lot of practice I'll be able to shoot an arrow every three seconds with my 100lb bow and I plan to do that with a 120lb in time."_ Joe Gibbs going at a steady pace (not his fastest but he made a point of not being slow) with the 120# SIL, was shooting one arrow every 4 seconds. Perhaps Shad believes he could shoot TWICE as fast, under better conditions...?
@vodoopupped9687
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 speed is irrelevant when you can´t hit the target. Even with modern firearms you don´t pick the fastest shooting one. When you hit your target with the first shoot you are much faster. Also shad is not really a good archer.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@vodoopupped9687 I'm sure Shad will show us how right-sided shooting is "biomechanically" a lot more accurate, too... as he misses a target at point-blank range, yet again. As someone pointed out in another comment, there doesn't seem to be much speed difference between right and left, based off Peter Bogar. The difference only really matters if you use crazy-wide nocks, like Lars Anderson.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
To be honest, Shad's theory is completely undone by when Joe Gibbs used the Instant Legolas, removing any idea of it having a useful advantage. Clearly, that device is a lot faster than Shad's technique. And yet... Joe Gibbs was barely any faster with it, despite using a weaker bow with the device. Even for Joe Gibbs, who can use a 180# bow, each shot with a "mere" 95# was taking about 1.5 seconds per shot, with the Instant Legolas. To compare, he can shoot a 160# bow in about 5.5 seconds per shot. The 120# bow was about 4 second per shot (3.92 seconds on average), and that's still a much lighter bow (it wasn't very accurate shooting, either). If we get Joe to speed-shoot with a 95# and a 120# bow, we'll probably find a very slim difference in rate of fire. Similarly, if we rigged the IL to a 160# bow, the result will be slower than the 4 seconds of the 120# bow, obviously. So, even if Shad got his technique perfect... it would still barely make a difference, as it's going to be a lot worse than the IL, which barely makes a difference.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
Brute force is necessary in archery, but it inevitably comes down to technique. Technique and repetition. Years and years of training. Joe Gibb's been shooting for his entire life. Shad's been shooting for what, 2-3 months? Let's not even get into the fact Shad can't draw the bow properly, is probably lieing about the weight since he has yet to confirm it on camera without assistance, and he's claiming he's finding all these new innovative ways to shoot despite most of this information being readily available on blogs and other youtube videos. All this after a relatively recent operation. Historically, speed shooting was a gimmick in many cultures. Something to do as a past time at competitions or the like. The Chinese actively disregarded speed shooting and shot for power and penetration with bows matching longbow weights. And they kept archery relevant for 200 years after the Europeans phased it out.
@nathanielwilcox4947
4 жыл бұрын
@@Drewsel Shad literslly has a video where he measures the draw weight of his bow. Why would he lie?
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@nathanielwilcox4947 He's a compulsive liar. He literally highlighted one line Nu wrote, to show Nu said his draw was impossible... when all you needed to do was read the next sentence to see he WASN'T calling it impossible, but was commenting on the shot he SAW. That's how much of a blatant liar Shad is and how gullible he assumes people are, where he's tried to gaslight me about which video Nu was referring to in his apology video because he couldn't defend his behaviour with the "idiot or troll" video in response to Nu's polite criticism. I don't know what's going on with Shad's bow. I've known some very strong people who could barely use a 90# bow... and they spent hours bow-hunting regularly. The fact he threw a fit about people wanting him to test his bow was also very strange, as that's completely normal even for archers like Justin Ma, where you test the bow before your demonstration.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
@@nathanielwilcox4947 The issue is the methodology. The gold standard method in the warbow community is to use a marked arrow, draw to the marker using a handheld scale, and then shoot the marked arrow under control. Example: kzitem.info/news/bejne/l3t512eYjaqcpW0 If I recall right, Shad measured the draw weight on a freestanding scale, then dry pulled the bow without a visible reference for draw length. Simply pulling to an anchor point on the face can be misleading since there are issues of body compression under heavy weight, plus changing one's form even slightly can alter the body geometry and have an effect on draw length. So the issue is that we don't truly know what Shad's true draw weight is at his draw length. I'm not saying it's not 100# (maybe it is at this point), just that we don't know...
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn Every one tends to be surprised That their draw us not as long as they perceived it to be I laugh at myself all the time . 26 is my fingers draw length And my new thumb draw anchor Is 26 now . Which means no matter what the bow is labeled I'm not pulling that weight . Since I'm short over draw is when I get to 29 . Lol that's past my ear .
@leedavis7508
4 жыл бұрын
I've been a 'Historical Archer' for 50 years. I've English Long Bows, Asian Horse Bows and Japanese Yumis. My Western Draw is 30 inches. But when I practice Kyudo or use one of the larger Horse Bows, my draw is 34 inches. I'm able to get more expansion of my chest and the realignment of my draw arm changes drastically because I'm using the Thumb Draw instead of the Mediterranean Draw.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, but this discussion is taking place only in the context of the Med draw. The increase in draw length with thumb draw is mostly due to the fact that the string is held more deeply in the hand...
@georgebowman8820
4 жыл бұрын
He won’t acknowledge the value of thumb draw and criticizes in favour of Mediterranean... constantly ignoring facts such as yours! What about heavy weight Manchu bows meant for long draw? You’ll never see it here! At least his response to you was nicer than the insults I received. Eg. 30” vs 34”... deeper in the hand?? WTF kind of desperate rationalization is that?
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
The string is held deeper in the hand with a thumb draw than Med draw, pretty simple concept. I can make a picture illustrating this if requested. The difference it makes will depend a bit on hand size, of course. Could be other things contributing to the 4" difference, but hard to tell without seeing a video example and getting all the information on the table. Both are valid release methods with advantages and disadvantages to either. This video is in response to a non-thumb draw topic...
@leedavis7508
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn Please do some actual research into the Thumb Draw. It is Not held more deeply into the hand, quite the opposite. Study some photos of Kyudo Practitioners, you will see the draw go well beyond the ear.
@georgebowman8820
4 жыл бұрын
ryddragyn, Gee! I thought, from your insults, your earlier assault was about how versed you are over my 50+ years!!! You just now told everyone you don’t have the thumb ring knowledge to address the subject; as I knew all along. So tell us all your experience with drawing a heavy weight Manchu bow to the 34 - 35+ draw length Mediterranean?? I’m eager to see you weasel out of that!
@Sinistralian
4 жыл бұрын
I did some tests and found that there seems to be a 50% loss in penetration power between the Mediterranean draw and the cradle draw, using an under, about right and over-spined arrow (or well, actually same arrow but three different bows, but same difference, right? Have some videos on those, but a bit sloppily done...) and it didn't seem to matter. Also did some distance shooting tests, but nothing very rigorous(been too windy all year), but it seems to be the same when it comes to distance. I think Shad is an amateur who can't see past his nose, who never tests or understands anything he does beyond the shallowest of surface-levels, but at this point it doesn't seem like most people care and just want to bandwagon. Perhaps people back then were no different and just used what was easiest and didn't care that it was bad form, then either?
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
I had wondered if that might be the case, considering the arrow goes sideways off the bow. I'd love to see videos about it.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
The baseline arrow flight with Med-on-right is, as even its proponents have shown, pretty abysmal. Obviously there is the khatra option, but that is a complicated beast in its own right. A lot of my bows refuse to cooperate with khatra (differences in handle shape, limb profile, etc). The sport Korean bows are ideal for it. On the other hand, my Mollegabet bows pretty much only work well with standard Med draw. This topic is nuanced, and I sincerely wish people would calm down and look at the finer details dispassionately.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn Just thought you might find this funny... Shad is stalking me through the comments on Matt's video, writing rants about how I'm bullying him, the massive channel owner, by calling out on his bullying and his nonsense technique.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
I've tried to stay out of the rest of the comments on Matt's video. At least they are less "curated"...
@archeryboras5921
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 What is important in battle? Hit the target? It's one of the techniques I also use for shooting on the right side. For short distances, I have no problem. I use a light horse bow. Maybe the brain is adjusting its calculation. I shoot instinctively. I will try to look deeper into it.
@vodoopupped9687
4 жыл бұрын
I agree on that.
@emarsk77
4 жыл бұрын
Interesting observation. I hope it's received constructively into a discussion that, if cleansed of all the silly hatred, has the potential to be very interesting. To be fair, Matt himself acknowledges his own bad form, and that what works for him doesn't necessarily translates to everybody or anybody else.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
I did manage to get on Matt's radar with this video. His immediate response was "Very interesting, thanks. I will try it out!" I do think that with very minimal coaching and practice, Matt would realize that he can draw just as far with Med draw on left. It's the exact same body position that he used in his video, just rotated in the other direction (the hip hinge doesn't even need to be that extreme). Pretty standard "proper" form that is also cross-cultural. Also, as we saw with Matt's actual shots, the "lean back" right side form also seems to encourage external rotation of the bow shoulder, which can be problematic and potentially lead to injury. As Justin Ma has shown through trial and error and historical research (the dude can draw his own body weight at this point), medial rotation is far safer and leads to a stable bow shoulder. I've had my own share of shoulder issues, and can attest to this as well.
@MarkMuhammad
4 жыл бұрын
Indeed the arrow placement doesn't contribute to draw length. I think we can also look at modern mongolian archers regarding this topic. They shoot on the left side of the bow but still manage long draw.
@MarkMuhammad
4 жыл бұрын
Yes, they use thumb draw, and they also shoot on both sides of the bow and with similar draw length
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
@@MarkMuhammad Yep, and that's the exact point that a lot of people in the warbow community have made in response to this debate. Proper mechanics for expansion is an issue independent of arrow placement.
@Dream_Weapon
4 жыл бұрын
Man, this video is on fire.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
I wish. Sensible youtubers like Ryd barely get any attention.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
I was just ranting to a friend about this. The stance helps keep your shoulders perpendicular to the target and further increases your draw AND stabilizes your shoulder in addition to the info you provided. I feel like the other method might simply be a form of short draw for hunting or something? Speculation obviously, like everyone else speculates, but i think its fairly obvious the 'inverted' method prevents full and complete expansion and sacrifices stability in favour of an allegedly quicker and operator friendly draw? Im not even sure what the core arguement is besides it appears on art?
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
You may wish to check out my comment. In short... Shad's technique is worthless from the outset, as warbow archers told him. Even with the Instant Legolas, Joe Gibbs was not shooting markedly faster. With a 120# Instant Legolas bow, he shot at about 4 seconds per arrow... compared to 5 seconds per arrow with a 160# bow.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 thank you for the humane response lol
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@Drewsel Humane? Did you expect to get attacked? I don't blame you, people are sharing their experiences with me about Shad himself attacking them personally for minor points of correction.
@nair.127
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 Attacking is shads usual approach The goal is???? The result self censorship. Cause it's not worth the headache. Both ryddragyn n NUSensei Have suffered attacks from him and his followers.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
@@vanivanov9571 pretty much. Im open to criticism. Unfortunately most youtubers and their followers handle criticism like a personal attack instead of developmental conversation. Im open to any sort of arguement against me, but so far there isnt anything very convincing. At best i think the arguement undermines our ancestors by implying they had incorrect posture. I think our ancestors were innovative, and highly intelligent. They may not have known about human biomechanics on a scientific level but they definitely knew how to use it to their advantage. Basically what im saying is they would have shot the bows in the most biomechanically efficient way, taught and handed down over generations. If something worked they kept it. If not, well. Theres a crowd of people saying longbowmen shot with terrible form. I disagree.
@jobymanuel1353
3 жыл бұрын
So, you're saying, if I back it up it'll be far enough.
@thalesmiletus5256
4 жыл бұрын
Interesting. Not sure I understand the concepts fully from this illustration. I've been shooting arrows since I was about 6 and living on a farm. Always, until recently with right side of the bow arrow hold. First I did pinch grip, then mediterranean in boy scout years and lately thumb draw. I also practice shooting right handed bow hold as well as the standard left handed hold (for righties) with the arrow always on the thumb side, but only with a 50 -55 lb bow. I will have to follow this further out of interest.
@thalesmiletus5256
4 жыл бұрын
Ps - don't have right side med hold arrow flight problems that you mention that I'm aware of, but I'm not that critical a shooter.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Thales Miletus What is unclear, exactly?
@thalesmiletus5256
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn To me the illustration of "straight" vs "hunched back" isn't precisely clear. I played a bit with this today comparing arrow hold points - chin, ear, & arrow hold arm shoulder. It seems easier to establish (or understand, if I have it right) a "straight" back when the hold position is at the arrow hand shoulder. Straight meaning the scapula are being put ( squeezed) as close together as possible toward the spine and nearly a straight line from arrow hold shoulder thru neck to bow shoulder & straight along bow arm to bow. With holds at ear/ jaw or at the corner of the mouth it seems easier to round the back and let the arrow hold shoulder move forward toward the front of the body. Unf. the arrow length needed for me for a shoulder hold is about 35.5 inches and most of my cheapo arrows are only 32". I have a newly purchased bow draw poundage tester like yours and have found the pull of my heaviest bow at full shoulder draw to be 63 lbs. Not bad for an old fogey ( 72yo)!
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
It seems like you're maybe looking at it from the wrong angle, from above instead of from the side? I showed the images of Gibbs and Stretton from behind or in front (profile view), not from up top. Regardless, it seems like you're able to establish good/proper expansion as it is, so there maybe isn't much point in trying to do it "wrong" on purpose.
@gushlergushler
3 жыл бұрын
I think to an extend you are correct, however I believe once you get to the very long drawlength Manchu archery shows, mostly around 36 inches or more, you see in traditional photos and texts that they encourage a flexed lumbar spine, that usually also curls your thoracic spine to an extend. Additionally once you get to 36 inches of drawlength it becomes very difficult to keep your elbow high and keep three fingers vertically on the string. A horizontal hand placement is much easier once you are that far back. That’s my two cents to the debate, I don’t know much about English longbow archery, just wanted to give some more input.
@ryddragyn
3 жыл бұрын
This video was in response to a video claiming that one could draw further with Med draw with the arrow on the right( and an aggressive backwards lean), as opposed to the conventional left side placement. I was specifically taking issue with Matt's hunched posture with the conventional placement, such that the two methods were not really being accurately compared. And to his credit, Matt did try out my suggestions for form improvement, and revised his opinion. Thumb draw adds another variable entirely. Though I will say that if you do look at old photos of Manchu archers, their posture is essentially identical to that of Joe Gibbs and that of the Liangulu archers. Heavy bows are heavy bows... I also find it interesting that the Manchu strength trials allowed archers to use fingers to draw the super heavy bows, instead of the thumb. I think there are some biomechanical reasons for this beyond just the increased surface area for holding the string without extreme pain. The vertical hand position actually engages the lats a bit better, and for the limited load that is on the biceps and brachialis, it shares the load on those muscles pretty evenly. Compare to doing a chin up vs a pull up (the former being more easier/more efficient), or to doing a hammer curl vs a bicep curl. Not trying to rag on thumb draw, I just think that thumb vs fingers is a complicated give-and-take that people shouldn't take such a black and white view on.
@gushlergushler
3 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn Fair enough, first point we can agree upon. The lean is mostly the same, however you tend to see more of an increased lordosis in western style longbow then in Manchu style, comparing it with works by Scott Rodell f.e. who wrote a book about the manchu style of shooting. To my understanding there is a slight deviation, also mentioned by Gao Ying in Justin Ma's translation "The Way Of Archery" in which he says "sticking out the bum" would be wrong (according to Gao Ying). That kind of posture comes from a posterior pelvic tilt leading to increased lordosis while the anterior pelvic tilt, as tought in most asiatic styles lead to a decreased lordosis, sometimes even to an almost flat lumbar spine with the bend coming from the hip and the curling of the thoracic spine. It is mostly the same, that is true with the exception that in Manchu Archery tend to drop the elbow down at the end of the draw while leaning in though that also doesn't seem to be the case in all historical photos. The vertical hand positioning affecting the lats is incorrect. The hand position is generally to be seperated from the humeroid movement. Vertical hand positioning can also be called maximal supination which is entirely generated in the radio-ulnar joints (proximal and distal ones together). The Biceps is engaged more when holding your hand in supination as the biceps is the strongest muscles for supination actually. The brachialis, due to its pathway, is only really affecting flexion in the elbow joint. This however is not relevant in the draw as holding on to the string while pulling back with your back muscles will automatically close your elbow, i.e. cause flexion in the elbow. To my understanding, if proper alignment is achieved, the frontal humeroid muscles, biceps br., brachialis, coracobrachialis are not required to perform any action aside from stabilisation and in the case of three finger draw supination for the biceps, which is also mostly done by just holding the string with your fingers which is another muscles group entirely again. At some point in a long draw with a vertical hand position the biceps has to engage to keep the hand positioned properly on the string. I would argue that activation of the biceps on the drawside will actually detract from the efficiency of the draw as it works antagonistically to the long head of the triceps which causes extension in the humeroglenoid articulation. That would weaken your draw, to what extend I am uncertain, though it is probably not much. The point you raise about the Manchu Strength bows is an interesting one however. But as they sometimes went up to 20 li (according to Scott Rodell) which since 1 li appears to equal 13 pounds would come out at 260 pounds for a strength bow. We do unfortunately not have any knowledge to what drawlength they actually did draw them and also old measurements tend not to always be the most exact, however that is still an insane drawweight. I personally do not know of anyone alive today who could draw more then 120 pounds with a Manchu style thumbring. I would argue though, that since the Manchu mostly used cylindrical thumbrings, that those would not hold up to those drawweights and that probably was one, if perhaps not the only reason as to why they used 3 finger draw for strength bows. Note that I am not an expert on archery and just go off what I read so far and what anatomically makes sense in the scope of muscle physiology and biomechanics. I am working my way up in poundages at the moment, have however just started that journey so I lack personal "hands on" experience with heavy bows.
@ryddragyn
3 жыл бұрын
@@gushlergushler Extreme spinal curvature strikes me more as failing to keep the core muscles engaged than anything else. You see a similar posture with a lot of beginner compound archers who are way overbowed. Also not really great for riding a horse while shooting, btw. re:bicep engagement, I honestly have to flatly disagree with you on that one. We rightfully focus on maximizing back utilization, but there's no getting past the fact that the biceps and/or brachialis are engaged at various points in the draw and do have a subtle role to play. Saying they are inert strikes me simply as an inexperienced, low draw weight perspective, to be honest. There's so little weight that you don't realize those overlooked arms muscles are valuable and are contributing. (we're not the only ones to have debated this, btw. A quick google search shows a lot of debates debunking the "back only" myth.) I did find some EMG data on bicep usage in archery (with fingers), it peaks early in the draw before the lats can really kick in. That comports with my direct experience with heavy bows. Given the massive preload with some warbows, the biceps and/or brachialis engagement is actually pretty important, in that regard. I will of course agree that at super long draws, the vertical hand position is difficult to maintain.
@gushlergushler
3 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn Actually the only way to achieve anterior pelvic tilt and reduce lordosis of the lumbar spine is by activating your ventral core muscles, i.e. abdominal muscles. I didn't mean overbowed though, maybe I didnt use the right words there. As I said, I lack the personal experience but in that case I would like to know at what point you need to use flexion of the elbow. As I said the biceps also does supination which is utilized in the 3 finger draw but other then that the biggest force it can develop is in the elbow. It has slight effects on the shoulder, these are however rather weak for the lever it has no the glenohumeral joint is very very short. What you say about strong activation early in the draw does make a lot of sense, I didnt consider that before. I was paying most attention towards the end of the draw where I believe it to be no longer essential. In the beginning it does seem very logical as for at that point you can still generate lots of force through it aswell as the depending on your draw technique you still need to pull the string closer to your body. As an aside note on the brachialis: Since the biceps has a very short lever on the forearm due to its position the brachialis, being positioned under the biceps, actually increases the lever action since when it contracts it pushes the biceps upwards allowing for a longer lever. Thank you for discussing this with me, since I started in Corona times I lack people to train and these debates are helping me to get a better understanding.
@ryddragyn
3 жыл бұрын
@@gushlergushler Wouldn't lordosis also be reflective of a loss of ab strength/engagement? Hence why ab strengthening exercises are used to treat chronic lordosis? Ab disengagement is what I meant by "core". Should have been more specific, sorry.
@Daylon91
4 жыл бұрын
One must really know what he/she is stating is true especially if your "expertise" is not in that area and posting it to a world of people who know what's up and down. Matt used to be an archer he says but isn't passionate enough to dig deep and study archery as an art form.
@docmoto6477
4 жыл бұрын
Good stuff, 👍
@jamesk8730
4 жыл бұрын
To quote Matt Easton from his video "How to GRIP a Sword & Hilt Design: Historical Texts VS Personal Preference" "There's so many different ways you could hold this object, uh, but some historical sources say 'You must grip the sword like this. Don't do it like that.' Well, you have to remember with history, if someone tells you not to do something, that means that someone does it the way they told you not to do it. Because otherwise, they wouldn't bother telling you not to do it. If someone had never, in front of their eyes, done it that way, they probably wouldn't have thought to put it into their book, 'Oh don't do it that way, I saw Fred putting his Thumb up the back of his messer. Don't do that because it makes you more likely to be disarmed.' The historical texts don't tell you not to place the arrow on the outside of the bow. They make no mention of anyone using this technique. I think it's reasonable to assume it wasn't really done.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
That's very likely. Shad did have one point, that archery culture was pretty common. You'd look like a complete moron if you shot on the wrong side of the bow, back then. Of course, this also means no one is really going to care how you portray the arrows: "The arrow is on the wrong side of the bow!!" "...Gee, Sherlock... did you work that out yourself? If you don't like it, you can draw it." "I will! And I'm sure all artists will follow my realistic example!" Too bad Shad isn't good with math. As it turns out, if even some artists don't know or don't care, you're going to get plenty examples of both sides being used.
@dace48
4 жыл бұрын
I am amazed that this "debate" is still going. Poor posture in archery is going to cause long-term injuries especially when coupled with a heavy bow. These dabblers need to stop spreading misinformation and I still have no idea why serious history youtube channels even give Shad the time of day.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
Because Shad has large channel with many subscribers, they hope to gain from him. And also because he has a large channel with many aggressive fans.... I'm sure you heard about what happened to Nu-Sensei, when he got "out of line." Jack of Historical Archery practically kowtowed in apology, for getting injured with Shad's draw. Also, I hate to plug myself... but I pointed out in another comment there is no notable speed-advantage, even with the Instant Legolas, as shown by Joe Gibbs. If the IL has no great advantage, then surely Shad's technique does not.
@emarsk77
4 жыл бұрын
Shad may be doing a lot wrong, and some of his arguments may be faulty, but his main point remains and it is interesting and worth further investigation: a lot of medieval and renaissance pictorial art shows arrows nocked both on the inside and on the outside of the bow, sometimes even in the same drawing. Dismissing this evidence as "all these artists didn't know their stuff", as someone did, is disingenuous. There's no reason to assume that people in the past didn't do things in different ways from us and from each other (even less efficient ways, why not?), and trying to discover more is more interesting than assuming that we know everything. By the way, a lot of artwork (I'd say most of it, really) also shows the draw hand in a position that looks nothing like a three fingers Mediterranean draw. I'd love to see this point further investigated as well.
@dace48
4 жыл бұрын
@@emarsk77 My issue with this and him in particular is the methodology. The right side draw *was* used, as was other loose types, we have evidence of the Slavic draw, the Flemish release etc. and they are known. What I object to is him labelling these as "his secret draw that he personally discovered" and sending off his fans to shout down and harass anyone that disagrees. This and his poor form which lends itself to injury when a correctly performed Slavic draw achieves the exact same thing *safely* . Even Gao Ying in the Way of Archery points out that you can draw incorrectly for a couple of years as a young man but "your joints will develop deep-seated problems" - 500 year old wisdom right there from a man who dedicated his entire life to archery.
@NUSensei
4 жыл бұрын
@@emarsk77 Conversely, one can't just say "everyone back then had to do archery, therefore all the artwork must be accurate", which is the common rebuttal to the use of pictorial evidence. If we can assume that people in the past had the same approach as we do, then it stands to reason that the "correct" or "most effective" method would be more universally adopted, aside from small variables. The historical evidence we have strongly indicates that one method was the norm, if not exclusively so, and no textual evidence - despite a wealth of treatises and historical writings over hundreds of years - even mentions the opposite method. There's another caveat with historical illustrations that hasn't really been explored in the debate. Much hinges on the presumption that everyone was required to do archery, therefore the artists must have known what they are doing. However, the law simply mandated that people practice archery (on Sundays). In other words, they simply had to _do_ it. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were trained to do so by experienced archers. Given that there wasn't a standardised training curriculum, nor was the purpose of the law to create a standing army of archers, it's probable that people just turned up to the butts and shot because they had to. If tomorrow there was legislation that required every single citizen to spend an hour each weekend playing golf, you'll see the same spread: some people will take it seriously and learn how to do it well under personal coaches or classes, most will just turn up, whack a few balls down the driving range and call it a day. The diversity in artwork from European sources may be reflective of artists who didn't really know what they were drawing, or illustrating people who didn't really know what they were doing. For the vast majority of the populace, archery would have been a completely useless skill. This is why scholarship draws heavily on Roger Ascham - as the single most detailed written treatise on archery at the time, it gives us the clearest picture of what archery would have looked like at the time. The prints shown in Gervaise Markham's "The Art of Archery" clearly show one specific, correct method that checks out with the written text.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@NUSensei Shad: "Some of the artists were archers... and so that means the art is accurate." Meanwhile, in the world of math and reason, a grade-school teacher was asking the class: "How many artists need to not know or not care about the details, to put the arrow on the wrong side of the bow in pictures?" Let's also ask the question, "was there any chance that ALL OF THEM would get it wrong or right, so arrows would only appear on one side of the bow?"
@johnhanley9946
4 жыл бұрын
I pretty much have no idea what I just saw, with respect to the difference between a neutral spine and a hunched spine...
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Neutral=straight. Hunched is curved. If you also watch Matt's video he pretty much admits that his scrunched up/hunched posture is an issue.
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
You can't see ryd "sticking" his butt out ? And leaning into the bow ? The comparison to deadlift in weight lifting Is appropriate since that's kinda what's going on here . The whole body is needed to do this kinda draw weight .
@johnhanley9946
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn I believe you, but to me it just looks like you're drawing the bow further, and maybe leaning forward more.
@Drewsel
4 жыл бұрын
The issue being people who have no experience on the geometry of archery acting like they do. I suppose your comment neatly sums up why the majority of commenters discussing archery probably dont shoot bows. Unless you are, in which case you either dont shoot heavy bows, or your technique is most likely wrong. Theres plenty of videos of archers shooting with terrible form, and unfortunately less and less of those with proper form.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
@@johnhanley9946 It is easier to draw further when the spine is neutral.
@ummonk
4 жыл бұрын
The problem seems to be that with tall warbows some people (like Matt Easton) are bumping into themselves with the lower string, and have to hold the bow further away from themselves when it has an orthodox cant. The reverse cant with back arched away seems to obviate this issue, allowing them to maintain proper alignment. Of course, the alternative is to lean forward, as Joe Gibbs etc. do, so the lower body is away from the lower string. Or simply use a shorter and superior composite bow.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
Joe's draw is just the optimal draw, honestly. Shad trying to sell snake-oil in the form of a draw that makes you "stronger" is just ridiculous... you just need to use the proper form. Justin Ma made a good video on the subject, you should check it out: /watch?v=UvGAYBMhbKY
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
Labeling a certain type of bow as superior ,with in the context of a historical debate is kinda odd . Since it depends on the time and place being replicated . Realistically if it's " superiority we are after. The latest tech of any given time is the "best" So a compound of which ever design of 2020 ( not a compound shooter so don't know much ) Or a crossbow?? Since it's part of the archery tech family . Bows and the arrows plus the technique used to fit each . Is an adaptation of time and place . They are the tools used and adapted to the needs . Manufactured by the people's using them with the capabilities and materials available. Archery is a near universal technology. Invented and adapted by many people over many centuries . We are looking back wards with Our perspective of this moment Considering ourselves the zenith of knowledge and understanding of what is or was the best or superior . It's a bias we live with and only shows we don't know a much as we think. This whole debate and arguing about which side of bow was used . Is heavily influenced on what "we" think was important. Written and visual records exist from history but it's not exactly the same as the trillions of gigabits of information being created and stored by us on just this debate On just this one platform. Matt Easton and rydrygon Are among my favorite amateur historical presenters . Because first n for most They use the word context . So what is the context that brings in to the debate that a different bow is superior. When this debate is technique? With a particular style of bow ?
@ummonk
4 жыл бұрын
@@kmarchery The composite bow is simply superior, that's just a fact. And yes, a modern bow with synthetic limbs, center-shot shelf, compound pulleys, etc. is far superior to both. A modern gun is of course superior to any bow.
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
@@ummonk but this video is a response to a debate about technique using a high draw weight European long bow . Not a debate about superior bows . Ryd just happens to be holding a wonderful modern tiron composite bow cause that's 1 his current favorite 2 the highest draw weight he currently owns and the draw weight is applicable to this debate . And if I was marching around Europe in 1266 I would not want a bio composite bow . For a number of reasons . 1 holy crap those where expensive D shaped long bows took a long time to make .bio composite even longer . And that's just glue setting. 2 said glue didn't really like Flanders weather . 3 better chances protecting my kit from the weather . Now if it's marching around the Mediterranean or the middle east North Africa . Forget the stick . It will dry out 🤣 I want a composite . If I can afford it . Now if modern bearpaw glass existed?? Note the if . Matt Easton loves the word context . And I love when he uses it . Cheers .
@Steve_Coates
4 жыл бұрын
@@ummonk To go full Easton, IN CONTEXT a compound wouldn't have been superior at the time as the technology base to build and maintain it didn't exist. An Alcubierre drive fusion powered FTL spacecraft is superior to a SpaceX Dragon, we have the theory of how to build one but we don't have the tech to do it yet.
@xllab1
4 жыл бұрын
The only interesting argument made by Shad in my opinion was archery training being mandatory in England, deducing from it that artists knew what they were doing. What are your thoughts?
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Only some of the artwork is from England... We also just don't know with certainty what each artists' familiarity was with the topic. There are jarring inconsistencies, odd patterns, and obvious errors (curved bowstrings etc) in many pieces. It's a mixed bag. A mixture of truth; mistakes, and ambiguities. I take it all with a grain of salt.
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
Mandatory archery is almost always commented on . Its part of the mythical yeoman of England . Thing is most but not all the art is associated with members of religious orders producing it . Clergy monks ect where not mandated . It was a choice for them to participate. longbows and the art where never exclusive to Englishman. The best yew used was imported from Iberian peninsula for example . Mostly Portugal. Art is a great reference but it's not be all end all as is one countries law an cultural myths . It's like so much ,more nuance than the simplicity being put forth as proof . A picture is worth a thousand words But a few words ,would help to figure out what the rest actually are and mean .
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
I also wonder if some artists were female. The practice laws applied only to men, if I recall right (don't quote me on that, I'd want to see the original wording). Obviously women are quite capable of being competent archers and artists, they just may have not been both in this particular scenario.
@kmarchery
4 жыл бұрын
@@ryddragyn It's possible ,especially within the church environment. Tapestries and needle work production . But ! And it's a big one Teaching women wasn't a priority Especially within the church . So the tapestries most likely designed by a man. But never say never . Medeval women where a lot freer than their later descendents. Depending on the decade within the centuries this debate is covered by . Think about it today we call it the hundred years war . Back then It was just THE WAR . Plus you can't discount the affects of major plague which ravaged populations in Europe multiple times . Labour was what powered The economy .
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Apparently the Bayeux tapestry was made by female artisans, according to some sources.
@hastingwoodbaskets
4 жыл бұрын
What about all those paintings,looks like Shade is accomplished forgerer
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
The accuracy of the artwork has been debated for decades, long before the internet existed. We're in the latest phase of an old debate. I prefer to rely more on treatise evidence whenever possible, as it was explicitly created for instructional purposes. Anthropological analogs are also very useful.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
I can't wait for Shad's next theory, how you can totally cleave through a helmet with a sword, based off a million examples in art.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@StarBreakers ....I'm afraid the only joke is what you've made of yourself. You just suggested that you can cleave helmets with swords... something many people have tested before, all to the same result: You can't. I don't think any historian has even suggested the possibility, beyond a very rare circumstance. Your example is also terrible... "We found a cloven helmet, and maybe a huge ax did this, but maybe a little one-handed viking sword did what a two-handed sword can't." Maybe it was an ax, I don't know which archaeological find you're referring to.
@TBD98
4 жыл бұрын
This looks like you are just locked into your preconceptions. Also, the fact that you are still accusing Shad of lying about his draw weight shows the level of your character.
@ryddragyn
4 жыл бұрын
Not accusing Shad of lying, just pointing out that the measuring methodology could be better. Using a marked arrow is the gold standard method and is the most accurate. Just pointing that bad posture has a negative effect on draw length, and that said bad posture doesn't necessarily have anything to do with arrow placement. As shown in the video, Gibbs and Stretton achieve maximal chest and back expansion on the left side of the bow. Having a neutral spine is key.
@georgebowman8820
4 жыл бұрын
Yo’ll never find anyone more “locked” into their preconceptions than this guy... a better descriptive word would be prejudices instead! I believe all narcissists have the same character.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@georgebowman8820 Indeed. He even went so far as to stalk me through the comments on Matt's video, because I challenged his preconception, and ranted viciously and accused everyone of being liars. The best example of this dogmatic nature is when he was criticized in the past by Nu-Sensei, and so he made a video titled, "Nu-Sensei: Idiot or Troll?"
@TBD98
4 жыл бұрын
Van Ivanov, it’s funny because NuSensei did admit to being wrong after Shad made that video.
@vanivanov9571
4 жыл бұрын
@@TBD98 Which is funny... considering his "apology video" reiterated the same points, following pretty much the same script as the video he was apologizing for. The only difference was he went into more detail, spending thousands of dollars on books. So why did Shad react like a toddler with a, "Nu-Sensei: Idiot or Troll" video, when he was happy with this apology video? Because Nu-Sensei said he was wrong, and Shad is right, and was forced to bow and scrape. Just like Jack, when he got injured by Shad's stupid technique and disgusting medical advice.
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