We must be careful to not adopt the spirit of the age and act like the world- angry, contentious, arrogant and uncharitable. Your approach is exactly what we need more of. Thank you!
@Bruised-Reed
9 ай бұрын
But are we adopting the spirit of the more modern age or the spirit of the more historic age? It’s a really complicated issue that we need to use a pastoral heart when discussing
@EnglishMike
7 ай бұрын
Saying "No" to half the world's population simply because of their sex is made no more charitable when done with a smile on your face.
@EnglishMike
7 ай бұрын
@@Bruised-Reed That's where Gavin's argument goes off the rails. *All* the evidence from the last 120 years proves that the modern approach toward recognizing women as the equal of men in all aspects of governance was the right thing to do.
@andresullivan6473
5 ай бұрын
My pastor and I disagree on this subject. He sites that there is only one scripture in Tim. But what I argue that he is allowing woman to preach is in breach creation and replaced is with culture. Thus bringing our church into disrepute
@johnbreitmeier3268
3 ай бұрын
except that that is NOT the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter addressed false teachers. See Matthew 23, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2. When people are being deliberately dense, false and dishonest as the liberals are, a much sterner tone is required.
@danielmclean3227
Жыл бұрын
This was so good loved it, thank you so much for addressing this topic. “As the body of Christ we have to model a better way! We’ve got to assume the best in each other. We’ve got to treat people like human beings, not as caricatures; and that means listening carefully and not assuming the worst.” -Gavin Ortlund ““…You shall not add to it or take from it.” Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV “Throughout the Old Testament law there is this principle of “neither add nor subtract.” Adding on to the rules of scriptures is wrong just like subtracting from them is wrong. So we need to be sensitive to both.” -Gavin Ortlund
@FalconOfStorms
Жыл бұрын
Is it fair to say that Warren's emotional appeal made him a caricature?
@calebrogers693
Жыл бұрын
If you’re taking suggestions for theological triage, I think a video discussing the three main views of hell (the traditional view, annihilationism, and universalism) along those lines would be super helpful.
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
Great suggestion
@zekdom
Жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnitesI second that proposal!
@spn2240
Жыл бұрын
Yes please do this!
@TheCruiseDog
Жыл бұрын
If you should do this, I hope you will consider the doctrine of Conditional Immortality. I believe this view to be the most biblical of all the perspectives out there. For a brief introduction, please see Edward Fudge's lecture given by the Lenier Theological Library. kzitem.info/news/bejne/0H6LtqSjm4aAiWk
@lionssonpur
2 ай бұрын
Can you please address this?!!!
@jarednel
Жыл бұрын
I absolutely love your heart on this! 💛💯 I share your burden of concern about how angry and frustrated we've become, about how divided and divisive the church is becoming, and how poorly we treat each other. ⚠️ In fact, it's one of the main motivators for me starting my own channel and hopefully joining the few content creators out there trying to bring peace and reconciliation in the Bride of Christ. 👑 Keep up the great work, Gavin. Don't grow weary of doing good. Your voice is needed. Blessings! 😎👍
@chavoux
Жыл бұрын
My experience has been that when we prioritise unity, it doesn't work. It soon falters on our differences. However, when we prioritise the Kingdom of God and Jesus Himself, unity follows by itself, without even addressing the 2nd and 3rd tier issues. We learn to appreciate our differences, but to focus on the One whom we follow and on the job He gave us on earth - He is our unity when his will (for people to meet Jesus) becomes our greatest desire.
@juliemagro2096
Жыл бұрын
It took me a couple of days to work up the courage to watch this video because I've read so many other articles that are very dismissive of women and the way the Spirit has gifted us, and I was scared yours would be the same despite all of the humility you have exhibited in other discussions (sorry!). I read your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On because I spent the better part of 18 months studying the issue of women in ministry and ended up changing my mind (moving from a complementarian to an egalitarian position - for lack of better terms) and I didn't know what to do. I appreciated the wisdom that your book provided and find that all of the practical considerations you gave in this video are exactly the issues that I have faced in deciding to stay where I am for now despite my new position. Thank you for speaking up on this issue despite the risk. Your humility is an important addition to the conversation.
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I’m so glad the video wasn’t grating to listen to amidst differences.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
It always goes back to Deborah.
@DrDoerk
Жыл бұрын
I recommend watching Mike Wingers video series on women in ministry..... its very biblical!
@redeemedzoomer6053
Жыл бұрын
I didn't know you were American Baptist USA! That's technically a Mainline denomination, right? I'm an even bigger fan knowing you are a fellow MAINLINE Protestant!
@goyonman9655
Жыл бұрын
What did you think he was
@redeemedzoomer6053
Жыл бұрын
@@goyonman9655 I just knew he was Baptist
@vngelicath1580
Жыл бұрын
I always thought he was pretty academically astute and ecumenically open (aka liberal, by Baptist standards), but realizing that he's ABC, he seems very conservative to me now knowing that.
@Presbapterian
Жыл бұрын
Given that the credobaptist position is just the most biblical and historically-true tradition from the earliest Christianity, it's just understandable that Baptists are generally cool like that 😎
@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533
Жыл бұрын
Isn’t American Baptist the branch that ordains practicing homosexuals? That’s how it is in Washington state. Or are there two versions of American Baptist? The one I’m familiar with ordains women too.
@aaronpardue1507
Жыл бұрын
What an approach! Humble, loving, level-headed, and gentle. Way to set the tone in how we should approach this topic in our brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you.😄
@BrandonMcCrae
Жыл бұрын
I absolutely love your treatment of this conversation. While we may not fully agree, I greatly appreciate you’re clarity and conviction. Please keep doing great work and research.
@amyrebecca882
Жыл бұрын
You nailed it. Well done. Prayerful, articulate, knowledgeable, intentional. Thankyouthankyou. (MTS in Church History from Gordon-Conwell here--I can hear all your research. Keep it comin'. Keep being gutsy and winsome.)
@annelao7222
3 ай бұрын
Thank you so much. You are the most charitable and balanced complementarian pastor / theologian I've ever heard so far. May the Lord continue to bless and expand your ministry for His glory.🙏❤
@lavenderlady3982
Жыл бұрын
This was excellent - profoundly compassionate and gracious in tone, a thorough, comprehensive response, and lucid (in the most complimentary sense of the word). Will be sharing this!
@basromd
Жыл бұрын
Well said. Thank you
@__.Sara.__
Жыл бұрын
28:52 I love that you built a quick biblical basis for not adding laws to Scripture. I'm going to check if you have a video specifically on that topic. I also love how rich this video is! I appreciate that you have clear reasons for what you believe!
@ClassicalProtestant
Жыл бұрын
Great job Gavin - now dear churches can we get MORE deaconess??? We have these wonderful dear sisters who are doing the work - I’m all for more deaconess within the local body
@TheB1nary
Жыл бұрын
Yes. They became nuns before the reformation.
@dborisov23
Жыл бұрын
Love the heart posture in this video Gavin, becoming one of my favorite KZitem channels. Level headed and done in the right attitude and I would say very fair to both sides.
@ParsonBrown78
Жыл бұрын
Stumbled on to your channel as I have been loosely following the recent events in the SBC. You have done one of the better jobs in explaining the complementarian position. As a Pentecostal I come from a more egalitarian back ground. I have never given the topic of the roll of women a lot of thought from the perspective I have heard many share recently....very interesting to hear the perspective. A few thoughts from the "other side" to add to the conversation. It is fascinating to hear Baptist and complementarians call those of a different viewpoint more liberal. In my experience we see Baptists in general as being much more liberal when you take the entirety of scripture into context. Not a bad thing...just a traditional Pentecostals experience and viewpoint living in a "Baptist dominated world". Can you, or someone clarify this, because it is still not clear to me. I understand the position of women not being able to pastor. It is actually a position that I hold with room for few exceptions - many of which you outlined in your video. But when it comes to teaching where is the complementarian line drawn at specifically/literally. Can a women teach in any capacity within the "4 walls" or confines of the church? What about to children or other women? I know personally that is restricted in many churches in the south. That seems extreme and not typical, but again it is my experience. Can a woman not speak in front of mixed company or behind the pulpit in any capacity/for any reason? I know it's an extreme example (at least from POV), but what if a woman is singing a solo (I assume that is allowed)...would they be permitted to speak/read scripture in the context of that song as precursor or successor to singing? In my world that is no different than preaching and perfectly normal/healthy. When scripture is so full of women that play vital rolls in ministry across the centuries...I wonder if the whole notion has gone to an unintended extreme? To say, for example, that Deborah or Miriam were not serving as a preacher/teacher/pastor or whatever word you want to use in the context of the work they did for the Lord seems to be out of context to those of us that would be labeled as egalitarian. I don't believe those women cared what you called them, but they were leading God's people just the same... I heard a clip from the SBC meeting that mentioned nearly 2000 churches with woman on staff as leaders (couldn't say to what capacity)....from my perspective again, it is normal for women to serve in all kinds of ministry rolls in a local church. If this is a real problem within the SBC of adherence to scripture...is their a shortage of men to do the work in the SBC...or does it mean that those churches need to be shut down if not brought into agreement with the Baptist faith and message (never heard that phrase until recently and I kind of like it). That's just an outsider looking in and wondering how it will be addressed in the context of the SBC. It is fascinating to me to see this much discussion over something that rarely if ever enters our minds. I am definitely praying for my brothers and sisters in the SBC as they navigate this. I pastor a small Pentecostal church surrounded by Baptists in the south. I have one dear brother whose local church is wrestling with how they proceed in light of what is going on. I pray my comments are not seen negatively. No ill will meant at all. It is a very big deal to the Lord because it is a big deal to a large number of his people. I agree that this is a 2nd or even possibly a 3rd level issue. I am glad it is not salvific. I know we certainly don't see our Baptist friends in sin over this, and I pray that we are not viewed that way either.
@BrockSamson18
Жыл бұрын
This video is a welcomed addition to the conversation about bringing in priestesses. It's wonderful to see Bible believing Christians taking a stand.
@pkhumara
Жыл бұрын
I didn't realize that it's so complicated to be a baptist.
@MrSeedi76
Жыл бұрын
😊 That made me smile since I am currently thinking about joining a Baptist church near where I live. I only went to one Bible study class so far however. Since I studied theology myself, let's say it was an interesting experience. Not sure yet if interesting in a good sense or a bad one. I hope God will provide me with some clarity on what to do. There was definitely a lot of "ego" going on.
@bettymofokeng3404
6 ай бұрын
Dr Gavin thanks for addressing the elephant in the room 🙏😊
@asgrey22
Жыл бұрын
The point about doctrinal points moving is so true. Just as an example, Catholicism’s post-V2 treatment of the issue of women’s ordination is actually not based on the egalitarian/complementarianism line of argumentation (and has been explored as a historical conditioning keeping women from the priesthood) like it is in Protestant circles because Holy Orders is considered a sacrament, where one considers the meaning of the sign, as opposed to the Protestant understanding as pastoral ministry as office, or a “function”. So in the same years that the magisterium has stressed that women are subjects and belong in leadership roles, it has also been stated definitively that women cannot be ordained, not in the basis of “function” but of the acceptance that Christ instituted a Sacrament rather than an office, and in doing so, chose only males. It is not a question of capability, but of what maleness and femaleness themselves signify. And that question is still being explored, but the sign of maleness has been linked to the priesthood. Just interesting how these different doctrinal understandings of the priesthood across denominations also influence this conversation.
@Revlo-64
Жыл бұрын
I appreciate it your handling of this discussion. I am reminded of Tim Keller's more recent articles on the decline and renewal of the American church. Some of the ideas you expressed are similar to the conclusions he reaches in chapter 3.
@davidkomzyuk
Жыл бұрын
Hey Gavin, I was wondering as a Protestant who’s pretty young in the Faith I want to learn the History of our Branch of Christianity. I was wondering what are some good resources for this. Thank you.
@jordand5732
Жыл бұрын
Chech out jordan b cooper
@morghe321
Жыл бұрын
I think you've already come to the right place. 🙂
@davidkomzyuk
Жыл бұрын
@@morghe321 Definitely. I just wanted maybe like a lecture series from 33AD to now. Or a book but this channel is definitely a quality resource.
@davidkomzyuk
Жыл бұрын
@@jordand5732 Will do.
@morghe321
Жыл бұрын
@davidkomzyuk, I understand. Jordan B Cooper, as mentioned here, is a good resource. If you're not a Lutheran, you will only disagree with him on a few things here and there, when he speaks as a Lutheran. But his channel is definitely a good place to go if you want to learn about protestantism.
@andreaheba380
Жыл бұрын
Thankful for this video Gavin, very helpful. God bless you and your contribution to the church.
@HarrisBeauchamp
Жыл бұрын
Gavin, I would be very interested to hear you make the case for why The Trinity is a First Rank Doctrine? I take it you see the Apostle’s Creed as an incomplete or insufficient statement of Christian Faith? What exactly should a person understand that he is affirming, when he affirms “The Doctrine of the Trinity?” How much disagreement on interpretation of the Trinity is permissible? Thank you again for your careful and charitable handling of these subjects. Your work is a blessing to me.
@mrssarahcameron
Жыл бұрын
Thank you! Appreciate your grace-filled approach to this conversation.
@jrrgotmemes8835
Жыл бұрын
This was quiet helpful. We definitely are talking past each other a lot.
@timothygudz8756
Жыл бұрын
Wow! I love you, Gavin! You're an example to me. Thank you for this video, brother.
@kimjensen8207
10 ай бұрын
Thank you, brother Kind regards Kim
@romans1229
Жыл бұрын
Your Channel was recommended by Becket Cook. So glad it was! Immediately subscribe & enjoying your deep dive explorations. Well done!
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
Thanks and welcome!
@bradoway
Жыл бұрын
I would be curious about on your Triage of Sabbath-keeping, specifically Seventh-day Sabbath vs Sunday worship. Love the concept!!
@lindacooper5542
Жыл бұрын
Based on scripture and church history So basically women can be deacons, they can do administration Bible study etc, but men can only be pastors/elders and hold the highest seat. That sounds fine🎉
@justchilling704
Жыл бұрын
I’d say it’s more based on tradition and church history. Gavin’s example of the Leviticus Priesthood only works to an extent as it was only the descendants of Aaron who could be priests. Well that excludes literally most men in ancient Israel, we don’t have any equivalent to that in the New Testament. We see Jesus taking make and female disciples, we see women being the first witnesses, we see female apostles and deacons. The only time Paul seemingly forbid “women” from being elders or teachers was when they tried to usurp power, and did so while not even being grounded or disciples themselves, this suggest Paul is saying such women and in principle men are not to teach. His reference to Adam and Eve was not about the creation order or nature, b it about the fact that Eve sinned of ignorance and Adam with full knowledge. So I get complimentarianism but I no longer hold to it bc I believe it ti be grounded in inconsistent interpretation (if women are more prove to deception why should they teach anyone? Other women or children?) and a slight misunderstanding of Paul’s letters to Timothy.
@jonathandulin8753
Жыл бұрын
@@justchilling704I would argue that this strengthens the argument. All men are not eligible for leadership. Only those who meet the qualifications, aspire to the office, and are affirmed by a congregation.
@justchilling704
Жыл бұрын
@@jonathandulin8753 How so? I’m the New Testament being a elder or pastor is not limited to a specific bloodline?
@jonathandulin8753
Жыл бұрын
@@justchilling704 not a bloodline, but it is limited. Just like the old covenant is largely passed through bloodline and the new isn’t.
@Guardabosque
Жыл бұрын
@@justchilling704 While women hold many high roles and ministries in the New Testament (what person other than Christ can be said to have more honor than the Virgin Mary?), church leadership roles (like the Twelve) are exclusively filled by men. Also, qualifications given for presbyteroi and episkopoi use exclusively masculine terms. The proper reasoning for complementarianism is not that women are somehow deceitful, but that our life in the Church should reflect the structure and order instituted by God at creation. The relationship between man and woman (especially husband and wife) is said to be reflective of the relationship between God and his people, hence the use of words like "obedience". I believe this is why St. Paul refers repeatedly to creation when teaching on the roles of men and women. I don't think this has to mean that women are somehow less valuable, just that God created man and woman with unique intentions for each.
@marvinnorstrom2636
5 күн бұрын
Bless you brother.
@ourblissfulhaven
Жыл бұрын
Verses that come to mind: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your WOMEN keep SILENT in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is SHAMEFUL for women to SPEAK IN CHURCH. I think the Bible is clear that women should not speak in church. I personally do not have a desire to speak in church or feel comfortable when a woman does. However, sometimes as a woman it does sadden me that we are viewed this way in the Bible. I immediately ignore the feeling & simply tell myself this is the way it is. I do have two questions: 1- If a woman loves the Lord & is godly, is she ever allowed to tell her husband anything about the word of God? Based on scripture, it looks like we are not. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 12 And I DO NOT permit a WOMAN to TEACH or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. I am a born again Christian. By God’s grace in the last 4 years there has been fruit in my life. I thank God. My husband is Orthodox & does not believe he is saved. Most of the Orthodox WE know live worldly lives. My husband is a pretty good man. However, am I allowed to share my views about the word of God? Can I share a verse with him and my beliefs? I know that not our words as wives but our actions will make a difference based on scripture. 1 Peter 3: 1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, This is why I am constantly asking you to make a video with an actual Greek person who is Eastern Orthodox. 😬 This way I can share the video with my husband. He has been wanting a pastor to meet with his priest but hasn’t been able to do that. I know the Bible also says women will Prophesy. Why is it that in the last days women will be able to prophesy? Where would prophesying occur? In the church or outside of the church? Would a woman only prophesy to women and not men? This is a bit confusing for me if I’m frank. Acts 2:17-18 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
@ourblissfulhaven
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for your comment. Why wasn’t the verse applied to men if they were also part of the sexual immorality? I am curious and wonder why.
@carmenuber9
Жыл бұрын
How do single or widowed women in the church seek counsel or spiritual wisdom? Men generally feel comfortable speaking with their church elders (also men) or pastor (also men). As a woman, I have often had spiritual issues that I wanted help or guidance on but did not feel comfortable approaching a male to discuss. How can the church have a formalized plan to deal with this? Many if not most churches have no consistent plan for women to seek spiritual help or counsel.
@etheledhrin7098
Жыл бұрын
Women’s ministry programs and one-on-one discipleship is where you find this. Older women teaching younger woman, as found in the book of Titus.
@noobitronius
Жыл бұрын
Gavin, this is extremely helpful to me. Thank you for speaking to those of us that treat it as a 2nd rank issue technically, but a 1st rank issue emotionally. That is most definitely me. I would absolutely be in favor of a video or article on slavery and scripture, maybe even delving into recent arguments raised by atheists that say "no, American chattel slavery is *not* different than the type of slavery described in scripture."
@truthisbeautiful7492
Жыл бұрын
There are at *least* 3 views on slavery in the 19th century American church. The pro slavery, the abolitionists, and the 'middle ground.' I was taught the 'middle ground' position on slavery and the Bible many years ago, but in recent years I have been reading abolitionists from the 19th century and I think that view is right. Abolitionists teach that slavery is a sin and that the Scripture teaches that slavery is a sin. There are different versions of abolitionism in how to understand the New and Old Testament. The book Condensed anti Slavery Bible Argument takes the view that the Old Testament and New Testament reject slavery, based on a study of context, Greek, and Hebrew, all while holding Scripture is without error and 100 percent written by God. Some abolitionists allowed that some slavery existed in the Old Testament but not the New.
@joekey8464
Жыл бұрын
Paul says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” Primitive Christianity did not attack slavery directly; but it acted as though slavery did not exist. By inspiring the best of its children with this heroic charity, it remotely prepared the way for the abolition of slavery. In the Christian cemeteries there is no difference between the tombs of slaves and those of the free. To reproach the Church of the first ages with not having condemned slavery in principle, and with having tolerated it in fact, is to blame it for not having let loose a frightful revolution, in which, perhaps, all civilization would have perished with Roman society.
@joekey8464
Жыл бұрын
The first missionaries of the Gospel, men of Jewish origin, came from a country where slavery existed. But it existed in Judea under a form very different from the Roman form. The Mosaic Law was merciful to the slave and carefully secured his fair wage to the laborer. In Jewish society the slave was not an object of contempt, because labor was not despised as it was elsewhere. No man thought it beneath him to ply a manual trade. These ideas and habits of life the Apostles brought into the new society which so rapidly grew up as the effect of their preaching. As this society included, from the first, faithful of all conditions-rich and poor, slaves and freemen-the Apostles were obliged to utter their beliefs as to the social inequalities which so profoundly divided the Roman world. “For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal., iii, 27-28; cf. I Cor., xii, 13). From this principle St. Paul draws no political conclusions. It was not his wish, as it was not in his power, to realize Christian equality either by force or by revolt. Such revolutions are not effected of a sudden. Christianity accepts society as it is, influencing it for its transformation through, and only through, individual souls. What it demands in the first place from masters and from slaves is, to live as brethren-commanding with equity, without threatening, remembering that God is the master of all-obeying with fear, but without servile flattery, in simplicity of heart, as they would obey Christ (cf. Eph., vi, 9; Col., iii, 22-4; iv, 1).
@joekey8464
Жыл бұрын
“Chattel slavery” that most people call to mind, which involves forcing people into service indefinitely, unwavering cruelty, and the reduction of people to mere property. Although this was common in the African-American slave trade (and gravely wrong), it’s not what the Old Testament describes. Old Testament slavery commonly refers to a process of indentured servitude that the poor and destitute (or those with enormous debts) would make use of temporarily. They could “sell themselves” as servants (“slaves”) to pay off a debt or obtain sustenance for themselves and their families in a time and place with no government welfare programs. Although this type of “slavery” is a hard thing to experience, it is not intrinsically wrong. Christ’s teaching to love God above all things and to love our neighbors as ourselves does mean that the practice of chattel slavery is intrinsically wrong. He may not have laid out a policy plan against slavery in particular, but he spoke plainly and powerfully about a way of love that is incompatible with chattel slavery.
@jeremyneufeld6104
7 ай бұрын
Totally agree that sometimes we as Christians can get too heated and angry with one another, and we need to learn how to debate with gracious intent, and not be aggressively trying to change peoples views right away. Great video, love the input😊
@rachelforhisglory6577
7 ай бұрын
Great job.
@2013joshblack
Жыл бұрын
This was a great video and a fantastic treatment of the subject!! Thanks Brother
@capturedbyannamarie
Жыл бұрын
As a female who watched all of Mike Winger’s women in ministry videos. I have to say I am firmly, complementarian. Meaning I think women cannot be elders/pastors. They can teach according to the examples of prophetesses. The arguments for egalitarianism are super far reaching from what I can see in the Bible. I appreciate you addressing this topic. Prior to watching Mike wingers videos I had zero idea about this topic. I was super clueless and really appreciated it being addressed. As a woman most of us have no idea about our roles in the church most of the time. This topic is not addressed enough.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
A Judge, according to scripture, was a pastor. Deborah was a Judge. Deborah, as a Judge, could execute. I suggest my short essay on her.
@DrDoerk
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3bthat's not necessarily true... Deborah was a prophetess not a pastor.... There is a difference between a pastor and a prophet.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@DrDoerk Taken from my short essay, below: A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time. The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet. God ruled Israel through the Judges. Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... [PASTOR - Origin: late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour, from Latin pastor ‘shepherd’.] In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Also: Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV -God speaking to Nathan the prophet
@DrDoerk
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b judges where prophets, not pastors.... What you have said does not negate this. She was not a pastor.
@Jacobjoyemusic
Жыл бұрын
Hey Gavin really big fan of your channel. Love the wisdom, love, and truth of your heart in these matters. I would love to hear you talk about Jonathan Edwards and some of the early Church fathers and their perspectives and experiences of the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Would be such a stellar video or series!
@stevedoyle6139
Жыл бұрын
I found this video helpful and edifying. Thanks.
@KatieAnne100
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video… so good & balanced 🙏🏼🙌🏽
@evanmiller9072
Жыл бұрын
Can you talk about Christian nationalism / Mere Christendom position
@prophetmaw814
8 ай бұрын
Amen my beloved Brother in Christ. All too often we try to put God in a box. I hold onto the belief that we do not get to decide who God chooses for His work. Numbers 22:28 shows us His ways aren't ours. Thanks for another wonderful Word from the Lord.
@TruthUnites
8 ай бұрын
thanks, glad my videos are of use to you!
@kale6264
Жыл бұрын
Truly my fav yt channel
@jacobsnodgrass13
Жыл бұрын
Gavin I think it is important to highlight a comment you made. I really agree that everyone has a gift but not everyone has an office. There are numerous qualifications for an office listed in the pastorals. However, it seems Ephesians 4:11-16 highlights that everyone has a gift. Among those gifts is the pastoral gift. So women can have a pastoral gift but not hold the office of elder.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
God ruled Israel through the Judges. This is according to scripture. Deborah was a Judge over Israel. I suggest my short essay on her.
@ChrisBurton-mf3gk
Жыл бұрын
I’m Catholic, but I really want to ask this question: Why would a Protestant like Rick Warren devote so much time and energy trying to defend Sola Scriptura and then advocate for women pastors, something Scripture clearly forbids?
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
on my videos on non-Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant issues, I'm trying to avoid the comments sections getting overrun with anti-Protestant comments. Why don't we return to this (important) question in another context. thx
@ChrisBurton-mf3gk
Жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnites I apologize if my comment seemed “anti-Protestant.” It was not intended that way. It just seems self-defeating to claim Sola Scriptura and ignore the Scripture St. Paul wrote.
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
@@ChrisBurton-mf3gk no need to apologize. It wasnt a nasty or negative comment, It’s just that I want my channel to be able to talk about other things. This video is not about sola scriptura.
@jaihummel5057
Жыл бұрын
@@ChrisBurton-mf3gkNo, as a Protestant, you're not being offensive and you are spot on. He's being bizarrely hypocritical.
@yallcrazy302
Жыл бұрын
Same way catholic teaching and church tradition outside the Bible forbid homosexuality yet the German churches and priests like Fr James Martin ignore that. Hard to comprehend for the rest of us in both Protestant and Catholic circles
@indiamae3599
6 ай бұрын
I think this is one of the most compassionate dissections of egalitarianism and complementarianism i've heard. I haven't really ever had a productive conversation with someone who Identifies with complementarianism, there's always this arrogant dismissive undertone towards me as a woman. I don't know where I stand exactly on the issue, but I have always been so put off in the past with almost every man arrogantly and plainly stating "women can't be pastors" and not even giving anyone who thinks differently the time of day or respect. Thank you for this video.
@TruthUnites
6 ай бұрын
you are definitely right, in my experiences as well, that arrogance and prejudice hinders this conversation. thanks for sharing your experience.
@8784-l3b
6 ай бұрын
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
@Norrin777Radd
5 ай бұрын
Not to belittle your experiences, but comps are also often arrogant and dismissive toward *men* who support egalitarianism. That's one of the times when they treat men and women somewhat equally.
@信者の男
5 ай бұрын
@@8784-l3bshe was a seer not an ordained pastor by any means. You need disregard what Paul said to support your position and where do you draw a line to discern what things taught by Paul are binding? You can't just ignore what you dont like
@8784-l3b
5 ай бұрын
@@信者の男 (In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has obvious meaning to the average person.) Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way. “My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds have led them astray. -excerpt Jeremiah 50 For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may check out Ezekiel 34. When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin. That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period. But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways. -excerpt Judges 2 Deborah, full essay read time: 12 minutes, free, postable
@robertcampbell1343
Жыл бұрын
Im in confusion about the comment around 28 minute mark to not be "forbidding what is affirmed". Because, the vast majority of evangelical churches forbid head covering in their church when Corinthians specifically is addressed to all churches everywhere...help me with this.
@kristinwannemuehler9757
Жыл бұрын
In the Catholic Traditional Latin Mass which my family attends, almost all the women wear veils as they have for centuries, because Paul says it in Sacred Scripture. We veil and cover things that are sacred, like the special parts of our bodies that are used to bring new life into the world. Women are called to cover their heads because God created them to be such glorious creatures in bearing new life and in their beauty that they hide in a way during worship of God to avoid distractions from Christ.
@dcsuello
Жыл бұрын
Ide love to get your thoughts and summation of the free grace/lordship debates. You’re charity towards those whom you disagree with is a breath of fresh air in the academic world. Thanks brother
@DalelCampbell
Жыл бұрын
Would you see baptism as a rank two topic, worth separating over?
@gmphiljuth
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for this!
@benson0509
Жыл бұрын
Any chance you've done, or are planning to do, a video on Marian apparitions (Guadalupe, fatima, Lourdes, etc.) and wether they give any credence to Roman Catholicism. As a protestant, I find them very interesting. There are so many of them and it leads to think they are either lies, demonic, truth, or delusions. Protestants don't seem to have these experiences but catholics do. I'd be interested to hear your take.
@jamesstevenson1296
6 ай бұрын
It is not that I find complementarians to be sexist but they are more like the Pharisees who put the rules before the love.
@bettymofokeng3404
11 ай бұрын
Thank you pastor, ii agree with you, let's try to be more kinder to each other please 🙏
@James-WM
Жыл бұрын
I believe the value of having women as leaders and teachers in church cannot be over stated. Christ's Church is not just for men, women have problems with sin, grief, anger, and fears that men can only go to the Bible for, but struggle to connect with emotionally, for example, a 30-something male senior pastor may have a hard time connecting with a recently widowed 70-something woman, and his counseling education can only take him so far. My wife is a new Christian and she has benefited greatly from women teaching. As far as pastoral positions, I tend to want to only see men in that position. On the flip side, when church hunting we wouldnt even step foot in churches that have a woman as a senior pastor because (maybe its just a stereotype) those churches tend to teach heresies. I for sure understand the slippery slope, but having been with a SBC church for a year, I think its a serious weakness in the convention.
@westleyhurtgen4275
Жыл бұрын
The leadership of the church is clearly defined in scripture
@James-WM
Жыл бұрын
@@westleyhurtgen4275 yes, thank you for telling me what was already stated in the video.
@caman171
Жыл бұрын
the Separate Baptists allowed women elders and preaching in the 1700's and early 1800's. The Wesleys licensed women to preach in Methodism in the late 1700's and has continued ever since. The problem is the modern movement which argues theres no difference between men and women, so they have women elders without regard to what the Bible says. Women can ALWAYS teach children as they are the ones who "teach" their own children to talk, walk, use the restroom etc. Pentecostal churches allow women to preach, but not be pastors. Women can definitely teach other women (titus 2:4-8) the main problem is knowing which scriptures are cultural (like when Paul says women should cover their heads in church) and which are STANDARDS for the church in perpetuity. As a Baptist historian, there were times BAPTIST women were arrested for preaching in the colonies, because it was against the law to preach unless sanctioned by the Anglican Church.In Virginia, Margaret Meuse Clay often spoke and prayed publicly, once being arrested for unlicensed preaching with eleven Baptist men. Sentenced to a public whipping, she was released when someone anonymously paid her fines. In roles unique to Separate Baptists at the time, women were serving as eldresses and deaconesses in a few of the churches, baptizing and teaching women exclusively. As Separates merged with Regular Baptists in the closing years of the eighteenth century, women were increasingly restricted from public speaking and church offices. Daniel Marshall, Bro-in-law of Shubal Stearns never developed the leadership and organizational capabilities of his wife's oldest brother (Shubal Stearns)...when Marshall pastored churches, he may have depended on his redoubtable Martha, not only for testifying, exhorting, singing, and leading in prayer,, but for private counsel as well. In New England, Daniel Marshall’s sister was jailed during a pregnancy for preaching Baptist doctrines. Martha (Stearns) Marshall was described as her husband’s “Priscilla, a helper in the gospel.” When she spoke to the church, she presented herself as “a lady of good sense, singular piety, and surprising elocution” who routinely “melted a whole concourse into tears by her prayers and exhortations. HOWEVER bacj then it was understood that WITHIN THE HOME, the MALE is the leader and head of the wife. in MODERN times, it seems any church who starts ordaining women, ends up denying all other essential doctrines of the faith (Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Epsicopalians, Conregationalists etc have all gone apostate) We have however misunderstood what "ordination" is all about. we tend to think that is US setting aside a person for the work of the Gospel. This is wrong. Ordination is about us recognizing what God has ALREADY set aside. So the question should be "Has God set aside this person for Gospel work". The Southern Baptists have a monument erected to Lottie Moon, a single female missionary to China in the 1800's who founded a church which still exists. The monument calls her "assistant pastor" and "evangelist, devoted minister of the gospel". Something to think about. In any event, Baptists would do well to know their own history on a myriad of issues. I could talk all day about unknown Baptist history!
@AlexDestroyerOfEarth
2 ай бұрын
The excerpt you gave from Nicea I stated that it was women who donned the habit (Nuns) and were counted among the Laity, so not actually clergy, right? That doesn't really assist the egalitarian argument much, and doesn't really harm the complimentarian. Most would say that Youth ministry or Women's ministry would be a "deaconess" position.
@bettymofokeng3404
4 ай бұрын
Hi past Gavin , i like your channel is educative and i have lean a lot from it, i like the way you speak the Truth in a loving way, may that peace of God in you abide in you May i know please, Jesus had all male deciples, as there where we one can find His reason for that in the Bible
@8784-l3b
4 ай бұрын
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
@sebodubo6035
Жыл бұрын
I would like to ask (this question has nothing to do with the video) Why don't Protestants have a confession? This question has been bothering me for a long time and has prevented me from becoming a Protestant. I am asking for an assurance based on the Bible that it is enough to ask God for forgiveness directly and not a priest through whom God will give me forgiveness. It would help me a lot in the transition from Catholic to Protestant.
@kepleymcguire6359
Жыл бұрын
Lutheranism has a form of confession. It’s not a necessary sacrament but functions similarly to catholic confession. I don’t know much more about it so I’d suggest looking for more resources on the subject
@sebodubo6035
Жыл бұрын
@@kepleymcguire6359 Thank you for your response
@DreamcastFarm
Жыл бұрын
I can't think of too many protestants other than the fringe non-denominationals that don't confess their sins to a pastor or priest. Protestants just don't view it as a sacrament. Lutherans and Anglicans have a form similar to Catholic confession. But other protestant churches do it in a different form. Pastors are there to care for the church and congregation. You are encouraged to speak to your pastor and confess your sins to them and they'll pray with you. But you can always go directly to God. Here's some verses like you asked. God bless you and I hope this helps "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." Acts 3:19 "Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin." Psalm 32:5
@sebodubo6035
Жыл бұрын
@@DreamcastFarm Thank you and God bless you
@ogloc6308
Жыл бұрын
Psalm 32:5 “I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah” Daniel 9:3-11 “Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him.” Luke 18:9-14 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted” There is no scriptural indication that we are to confess our sins to a priest instead of through prayer to God. Jesus Christ is our great High Priest. He is the one mediator between God and man. Hebrews 4:14-16 “Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” 1 Timothy 2:5-6 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
@slythee1
16 күн бұрын
Did I miss it? Or was the whole purpose of this video just to tell people to "be nice to each other"?
@leepretorius4869
Жыл бұрын
What would you say if a church has a vague soteriological statement because they don’t want to take a position because they don’t want to be divisive?
@christiang4497
Жыл бұрын
I appreciate this take. It's fair to both sides, while also challenging to both. I'm still figuring out where I stand on this issue (although I have my biases), but in the meantime, I won't be alienating or divisive in the body of Christ.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described. God ruled Israel through the Judges. A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of that time period according to scripture. When a Judge died the people went back to their sinful ways. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
@2balastair
6 ай бұрын
Have you done a video on how the propitiatory nature of the Mass in Catholicism contradicts the finished work of the Cross as taught most clearly in Hebrews Chapters 7-10? A first tier issue in my book...and probably in your triage book too
@JJHOMEY14
Жыл бұрын
Hi Gavin! First, thanks so much for your channel and peace making spirit. I’ve been edified by you and watching some of your videos. Concerning complementarianism and being balanced, I am wondering, why did you choose to use Beth Moore’s books for women’s discipleship in your church. In Reformed circles, which is what you say you are theologically, typically this is viewed as a red flag.
@bobdupuy5910
Жыл бұрын
Gavin, you mentioned the possibility that women might be eligible to be pastors (not an officer of the church), but then later you included teachers in the same category as elders. Are we required to split the term pastor-teacher? Please explain your position. Also I don't find anywhere in Paul's listings of spiritual gifts that there is any difference mentioned between men and women in this regard. If you deny someone like Beth Moore, who obviously has the gift of pulpit preaching, the exercise of her God-given gift, there must be some other agenda.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
(Not Gavin) Complementarianism The priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy. A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower, at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier. A church can be made up of only men, because men are in the higher tier. Men are the superior gender, being male, and therefore more like God who is masculine. Therefore men can be leaders, for example, elders. A church can NOT be made up of only women, because women are in the lower tier. Women are the inferior gender, being female, and therefore less like God who is masculine. Therefore women can't be leaders, for example, elders. So even a large group of women can not be a valid church under any circumstances. For this group of women to become a valid church at least one man must join it as an elder. The addition of just one higher tier Christian would instantly form a valid church. ____________________________________ But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood... -excerpt 1 Peter 2 A 2-tiered priesthood doesn't exist, but this is what Complementarianism supports. It is a false teaching. It uses double-talk by telling women they are equal to men, yet states that women can't teach men. It states that a group of Christian women can not be a church under any circumstances.
@countryboyred
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b 1 Timothy 3
@scottspeig
Жыл бұрын
A good video. On the slippery slope argument, do you think that the gender role distinction helps gird against the slide though? So while egal. doesn't mean an inevitable slide, it removes a safety barrier to it?
@veronicapace7198
Жыл бұрын
Isn't there standards for an office in a church? Is anyone disciplined? Gossip is so hurtful but how many times have you heard a pastor tackle the issue?
@AM-xj4bd
Жыл бұрын
I like your reason for the importance of certain views being confessional. I was sorry to see the tone/word choice of Pastor Warren’s tweets, which unfortunately convinced me even more of his lack of wisdom. I liked your point about cultural elitism (in my mind I thought it was ethnocentrism but your term is better). Thank you! (I’m a woman complementarian who sometimes struggles with respecting men, yet believes in their call to leadership.)
@JonathanGarven
10 ай бұрын
Interesting. Isn’t this minister part of the American Baptist group? That group has female leadership. This congregation would be considered pretty conservative in that camp I would assume since they do not allow female pastors.
@jamesgeorge65
Жыл бұрын
What’s the American Baptist stance on women being made pastors?
@rachelforhisglory6577
7 ай бұрын
Good point in unifying and protecting our witness of Christ to the resta of the world.
@RealCaptainAwesome
Жыл бұрын
While I find both sides of the slippery slope argument annoying (those who say it doesn't exist vs those who say everything is one step from oblivion) I do see a constant push from the unsaved world one direction and those "just a little change" groups are always following along. My old church stopped doing weddings because they refused to do gay weddings and instead of resisting they chose to retreat because they were afraid of being sued and losing their tax exempt status.
@SeanusAurelius
Жыл бұрын
Good video, but the questions along the lines of "How long until Rick Warren endorses gay marriage?" are not only or even mostly based on his egalitarianism, but because of his soft affirmation of gay marriage ("Just don't call it marriage"). You can see articles noting his stance in a positive way and/or defending him at e.g. The Daily Beast, PrideSource, etc. But by all means, let him set up an egalitarian denomination that affirms biblical inerrancy, and lets see how it progresses over a decade. The distrust is prima facie justified by both his own wobbly stances and the long track record of egalitarianism acting as the harbinger of sexual licentiousness. FWIW, I think you *can* find good, solid egalitarians, but there's so many wolves in sheeps clothing because of current social trends that the erring on the side of forbidding is justified.
@k9leadstheway531
Жыл бұрын
Might have missed it, so I apologize. How do we know what is second, third and fourth rank doctrinal issues?
@timmatteson3959
Жыл бұрын
Sure, the text says Jesus had 12 apostles and we know they were all male. But He *sent* out 70. Were the other 58 not apostles, even though they were sent, which is the very meaning of the word “apostle”? What about Junia? Paul named her as an apostle. Was Paul out of line?
@chaddonal4331
Жыл бұрын
I am now using the term “generous complementarian” to describe my position. (Preferring that to soft or gentle). This would support women in all ministry capacities -except for being elders and pursuing elder functions.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
Deborah, according to the scriptures, was a pastor.
@chaddonal4331
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b Which Scripture are you referring to?
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@chaddonal4331 From my short and free essay : A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time. The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet. God ruled Israel through the Judges. Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... [PASTOR - Origin: late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour, from Latin pastor ‘shepherd’.] In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Also: Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV -God speaking to Nathan the prophet
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
If you have real interest I can paste up the essay. Reply if desired.
@chaddonal4331
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b A link? I’m curious.
@NovellaFranca
Жыл бұрын
A dialogue with someone on the other side from you, like Scot McKnight, would be great, especially with a view to better understanding each other and cultivating charity. Great video as always Gavin.
@ramichahin2
Жыл бұрын
I understand your very irenic approach pastor Gavin, personally I think it's very wrong for there to be women pastors or elders considering the Biblical approach
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
A Judge, according to scripture, was a pastor. Deborah was a Judge.
@ramichahin2
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b wrong, judges were to deliver prophecy, Deborah was not a pastor she was a prophetess
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@ramichahin2 A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time. The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet. God ruled Israel through the Judges. Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... [PASTOR - Origin: late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour, from Latin pastor ‘shepherd’.] In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Also: Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV -God speaking to Nathan the prophet More, proving a Judge was a pastor: But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways. -excerpt Judges 2 What happened after Deborah's time?: Then the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord handed them over to Midian for seven years. -excerpt Judges 6 -first sentence Also, a Judge had the ultimate in spiritual authority. A Judge, according to scripture, had the authority to judge homicide cases. So if a Judge gave a verdict that a man had committed the sin of premeditated murder, the Judge could, and had to, order his execution. As his execution was required for this sin under the Law of the Old Covenant. Also, according to scripture, a Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed. ... in accordance with the verdict which they tell you, you shall act; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. -excerpt Deuteronomy 17 Much of the above is from my free and short essay on Deborah. It can be posted, should you need a study.
@Apriluser
Жыл бұрын
As an American Anglican (ACNA) and wife of an Anglican priest, I heartily agree with this. In our diocese, we do not ordain women as priests, but we do ordain women as deacons (Anglicanism considers the diaconate as a holy calling, requiring ordination).
@Melissa-ju1pm
Жыл бұрын
Thank you, Gavin, for taking the time to share this. When you described the list of women found in Scr. , there were none who held the office of elder. All the other roles they served in are a non-issue. Can you provide a Biblical example of a woman serving as elder?
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
I don't believe there is such an example. That is one reason I am complementarian. Hope that clarifies.
@basromd
Жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnitesyet you mentioned early church deaconesses correct? An Anthem from from TO btw
@mjphyil
Жыл бұрын
Well said, if a bit of a rambling. We should always start from the foundation of what does this look like to the unbeliever. What will this decision do to foster the spread of the Gospel. So many times Jesus and Paul said they will know you are a Christian by your love (for one another first, and then to the world). We do indeed harm the Gospel, detract from Christ and slow the work of the Spirit when we argue, split and demean each other over such topics as this.
@nine4burnitall
Жыл бұрын
i like the approach…but you didn’t actually approach the issue 😂😂😂 i guess i’ll keep looking for a good explanation of both sides
@countryboyred
Жыл бұрын
He didn’t address the issue because the answer makes people uncomfortable. The Bible clearly puts men in a position of authority and doesn’t permit women to teach or be pastors in the church over men. The Bible is crystal clear on this issue. It just doesn’t jive with our feminist culture so people will bend over backwards trying to skirt the issue.
@courag1
Жыл бұрын
There are women professors at universities, colleges and seminaries which train pastors. The women achieved their degree because they had the proper training and maintain their professorships by doing what they were hired to do. Now if the pastors can be taught in their study to be pastors and this continues and is does not seem to be getting women dismissed, then how can men who are trained by women and are pastors and have taken even one course in all their schooling, aren’t they nothing but hypocrites? I know why they do not dismiss the women, they would likely be sued for discrimination. Now I can see women in a church which have no head covering, so if men in this day and age when women have proved themselves to be so educated and good at their jobs, that if you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, you are being hypocritical. in the early church many churches met in homes and women were deacons, Paul even calls one woman, Junia, an apostle. Did Jesus train people to have them gagged? He said a light is not to be hid under a bushel. I became a Christian through the ministry of a Presbyterian church who had a rule not to have women pastors, however they invited Corrie Ten Boom to speak on her ministry to fellow prisoners in a German prisoner of war camp and the miracles she witnessed and participated in there. Her book “The Hiding Place” is incredibly inspiring. No one was upset in the least that she spoke, everyone was excited, both men and women church members and their pastoral staff to have her speak from their pulpit. Women can pray and prophesy, sing, play instruments, go out on evangelism teams and win souls. I have in my life witnessed miracles of God. It would seem that what the church has done is to put a bushel over a candlestick. He who gathers with you and not scatters is not the enemy and there should be no punishment for those who are not hurting the church but rather building it. Moreover some of the letters of Paul such as 1st and 2nd Timothy are said to not be in the style of the writings of Paul’s earlier letters but also are dated at being written AFTER PAUL’S DEATH! What would have happened if the disciples when the women came back from the empty tomb, that Peter and John did not go to the tomb? They did not think it was important to even send some men with the women to protect the women from the soldiers. No one knew that the soldiers had fled from the earthquake. So the women went out of love and duty to the Lord of which is a more respectable thing than men who hid away to save their own skins! Women are prayer warriors on line such as at the 700 Club. I had one son who had Autism and the last day he had this was the day I prayed with the lady on the phone at the 700 Club. God healed our son. Of course this is a light which must be hid under a bushel? I think that whosoever is for the Lord is not against Him. Yes, men are not picking their battles here at all. In fact they double down on things. I was in one church where a pastor would not let us sing hymns if a woman had either composed the music of the hymn or was the lyricist. This was absurd and it was very hurtful. Considering that most of those sitting in the church are women and even women who are married who are in effect “football widows”. They attend, their husband is constantly “too busy” or even so jealous of her time, that he may prefer her to stay home. He looks at inflation and prefers to keep the money in the account. When people vote for president they need to for survival, vote for the man who is best for the economy, does not the church have to also keep its doors open? If women don’t have to dress like nuns any more, why pick and choose how the church wants to be judgmental when the woman who comes to church is already one who suffers abuse? If the only thing a woman can do is to cook and clean when she has many gifts and is treated as though she knows nothing at all, this is going out of the church’s way to hurt women at a time where men are replacing women in sports, posing as women. She is being undermined by the culture and is being undermined by the churches too! If Jesus did not want women to be involved, why did He have women who sat and heard Him teach. I have to ask, did Paul die for our sins? I thought it was Jesus! If we choose Paul over Jesus, then we become like the Muslims who believe in abrogation so whatever was written later supersedes what was written earlier but Paul’s writing was early and the Gospels came after and they contradict some of what Paul wrote! Were they not then stating the facts of what happened then to correct Paul???
@thedynamicsolo4232
Жыл бұрын
But we must not split over scriptural error......Thank you Rick Warren. Why are we so afraid to follow scripture? 1 Timothy 3:1-7 Overseers and Deacons It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money." Perfectly clear teaching on the matter. This is akin to saying you can use Red Pop and Oreo's for communion. The church doesn't have to argue about nuance, it needs to stand on the scripture. There are no disagreements as the bible is clear.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
@jacobusdekoning760
Жыл бұрын
As always a pleasure to listen to you! Just a comment regarding Jesus and the 12 men disciples/apostles: Can we really use that as an argument in the current debate? 1) Clearly it could only be 12 men in light of the Old Testaments 12 tribes and the significance of that etc 2) The disciples and Jesus travelled and sleep outdoors in harsh circumstances, so practically women were out of question. It would be absolutely weird and culturally rude and out of place to elect women as part of the 12.
@Caroline-hx7wh
Жыл бұрын
When Mary and Joseph travelled to Bethlehem they both had to deal with harsh outdoor circumstances. As did the other families who were traveling possible with children to pay their taxes. I use the 12 apostles are men argument all the time. Jesus called men. Men and Women have an equal place in the eyes of God. The woman were the first see the resurrected Christ. The Bible is clear on this issue of male headship of the church. As a woman I teach children and minister to other women. I have no business as a pastor or elder. I also share the gospel to everyone ( men women children) as we are commanded to do. God loves order, I desire to follow and obey His word.
@marianhreads
Жыл бұрын
Genuine question for complementarians - why is it considered ok for women to teach Sunday school? Is the teaching of children of less weight than the teaching of adults? I would think not, yet even in the complementarian culture I grew up in, it was usually women who taught Sunday school. I can remember just one young father who read us some chapters of Pilgrim's Progress (a highlight of the class, I would add).
@aidanr1061
Жыл бұрын
That's an easy question to answer. Don't split the children from the main congregation. A woman should teach the younger women not in a church service setting.
@marianhreads
Жыл бұрын
@@aidanr1061 yes, I like to see children in the congregation myself. But my question was more about why complementarians find female Sunday school teachers to be acceptable, as most of them do...
@aidanr1061
Жыл бұрын
@marianhreads in that case than I'm assuming it's mothers teaching children not from a role as pastor, but like I stated before I don't think that's a correct way a church family should conduct itself. I'm encouraged that you also like to see children in the congregation. But when paul instructs women not to teach man its obviously in a context of adults, Paul emphasies the importance of women caring and teaching her children.
@r.j.miller
Жыл бұрын
I appreciated the carful response. I personally lean more egalitarian. I can see a biblical conviction of male only Sr Pastor/elder of a church. But my conversations about this topic I have encountered some of the most hateful comments from complintarians. I agree that assuming all complintarians are sexist or abusive is not fair. But as someone who was abused not spiritually and emotionally, and have many close friends who were sexually abused from average complintarian teachings. I am grieved that most often I’m told “it’s an exception when abuse happens.” I feel that is also not fair. As Gaven had said the terms are new. Could maybe complintarian be an addition to scripture and need to be left behind? Could possibly diving into roles 2 roles as the “only” Biblical way be the foothold Christians opened in the west to allow in transgender? Is there maybe something not egalitarian and complimentarian need to repent of for distortion, dishonor, and manipulation of God in male and female?
@samgott8689
Жыл бұрын
I mean, so far as I can tell, what Warren (and others miss) is that the positive command of male Elders/Pastors from Paul, the reason why, and the universality of it is SO clear, that ignoring it or saying that Scripture says otherwise very plainly requires damaging your claim to having Scripture as your sole, infallible rule of faith and practice and final arbiter on all controversy. There truly is no grounds for it.
@samgott8689
Жыл бұрын
PS? I’m more than happy to admit that the issue of lady Deacons is no where near so clear, and do in fact make the argument that they can.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@samgott8689 Deborah was a Judge. A Judge was a pastor according to scripture.
@samgott8689
Жыл бұрын
No, it wasn’t, and even if it was, she was certainly the exception that proved the rule.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@samgott8689 There is no gender qualification in scripture to be a Judge over Israel. A Judge was REQUIRED by scripture to judge only the hardest cases. Even homicides. There was no appeal to the verdict of a Judge. All this and more is in my postable essay on her.
@samgott8689
Жыл бұрын
That’s all very interesting, and I am glad you’ve taken to try and demonstrate your position Scripturally, but you’d have to demonstrate exegetically that Old Testament Judges are an equivalent for a New Testament Elder, and there’s plenty to point to different purposes, different qualifications and specific moral qualities of Elders. There are, so far as I can tell neither of these: the Lord picks whom He will to be a Judge over Israel for a particular and non-repeatable instance of delivering Israel and instructing them on where they went wrong in their dealings with the Lord - ie, “judging” them. Sometimes that’s a lady, or a coward with an Ashera pole in the backyard, hiding in the wine press, or a guy who laughed about breaking every vow he was committed to - AND tricked his mother into breaking a vow she was committed to and wrote a funny little ditty about it. Hilarious. There doesn’t seem to be any particular qualifications to be a judge that makes them fit for a well defined and ongoing office. The only commonality I can detect is that they are all people who inspire supreme doubt about their ability to deliver unless the Lord do the delivering. There isn’t really anything else that needs to be said that the video didn’t. Women have always occupied a unique place of honor among Gods people, and serve many important and noble functions. If you want to refer to those functions broadly as “pastoring”, well, I guess I can’t stop you, even if I think that’s a pretty vague way of talking about it, but the office of an ordained Elder in the New Testament Church simply isn’t one of those functions. Enjoy your Lord’s Day
@anthonycostello3457
Жыл бұрын
The term "virtue" comes from vir, or "man" in the Latin. In Clement of Alexandrias, Stromata Book 2, from his explication of the manly virtues in Chapter 18 it is clear that the kinds of traits he associates with manliness are ones specifically related to the capacity to endure intense physical and mental pain and suffering. To be manly is to be able to put up with excruciating pain. It seems fairly obvious to me, given the nature of the Roman empire, its persecution of undesirable religions, especially Christianity, to include the exquisite tortures it devised for its enemies, that Paul and later apostles probably were thinking about who should bear the burden of such intense pain and suffering in the leading of the Church. Further, or so it seems to me, and as Peter also points out in his Epistle when he references the wife as the "weaker" vessel, the main concern then over women leadership in the early church was whether or not women should be subject to the same kind and degree of pain and suffering that men were going to be subjected to if they lead the Church. We may live in a more egalitarian and tolerant society NOW, but that may not always be the case. I might be more inclined to the egalitarian position within the Church, if I heard more expressed concern by women and their advocates about wanting to be in pastoral roles not because they feel they are spiritually gifted to do so, but because they long to share in the greater sufferings of Christ and make the greater sacrifices to be in such positions. Perhaps, one thing we should all consider then, is whether to return to a vow of celibacy for all pastors, male and female. Perhaps such a criteria would aid in sifting out those who desire to lead based upon more egoistical inclinations and those who truly desire to participate in Christs suffering.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
you wrote: Perhaps, one thing we should all consider then, is whether to return to a vow of celibacy for all pastors, male and female. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to... -excerpt 1 Timothy 4 you wrote: Further, or so it seems to me, and as Peter also points out in his Epistle when he references the wife as the "weaker" vessel, the main concern then over women leadership in the early church was whether or not women should be subject to the same kind and degree of pain and suffering that men were going to be subjected to if they lead the Church. I then thought it the more needful to get at the facts behind their statements. Therefore I placed two women, called “deaconesses,” under torture, but I found only a debased superstition carried to great lengths, so I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you. -excerpt Pliny the Younger’s Letter to Emperor Trajan Regarding the Christians about 111 A.D.
@anthonycostello3457
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b I don't understand the relevance here of 1 Timothy 4, so I will ignore that for now unless you can make it more clear why you think that relates to a vow of celibacy. As to your second point, it seems to me that this confirms two things: 1), my point about the cruelties of Rome and the threat of physical pain and suffering that the Church was presented with, and 2) it supplies additional evidence that there were not female elders, but deaconesses (a biblical fact no one is contesting). But, the traditional role of the deacon or deaconess has never been preaching or teaching, but serving more concrete functions of the Church. Further, it may even be such cases of the torture of deaconesses that reaffirmed for early Church fathers the biblical "notion" that only men should be in the role of elder/pastor. In sum, I'm not sure if you are trying to make a counter argument to what I said or not. However, if you are, you haven't compelled me. In fact, the Pliny quote (of which I am very familiar) tends to lend support to what I said.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@anthonycostello3457 It's up to God whether He wants a given man (woman) to marry. It's not about people ("...we should all ...") making rules up for determining who should or should not be a pastor. Also, men and women suffer for Christ. There is no getting out of that. you wrote: We may live in a more egalitarian and tolerant society NOW... I'm a little busy, but I believe women can have any valid position/title in our time. Not sure what you said off-hand above. At about 1100 B.C. God made a woman a Judge over Israel. The Judges were pastors, according to scripture.
@marksorenson5871
Жыл бұрын
THIS IS NOT A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE. The Bible is crystal clear on this.
@RestfulLearning
Жыл бұрын
The English translations make it seem very clear, yes. Not so in the original languages.
@EmmaBerger-ov9ni
2 ай бұрын
My problem with Protestantism at the moment is that women are seen as less important cause they can't be pastors. Whereas in the RCC they can't be priests but they can be saints and even doctors of the Church. Women are more valued for their spirituality in the RCC.
@bethr8756
Жыл бұрын
What is triage
@PrenticeBoy1688
Жыл бұрын
You've said 'female deaconess' a number of times. Redundancy aside, have you considered the view that a deaconess isn't just a female deacon? In those churches, mine included, in which deacons are ordained clergy with specific liturgical functions, and who sometimes preach, the office of deaconess, where it exists, is not of the same character. It's not a clerical office, there is no associated distinctive garb or liturgical function. Deaconesses instruct and serve women and children only, and might organise things like church cleaning days.
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
I then thought it the more needful to get at the facts behind their statements. Therefore I placed two women, called “deaconesses,” under torture, but I found only a debased superstition carried to great lengths, so I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you. -excerpt Pliny the Younger’s Letter to Emperor Trajan Regarding the Christians, and Trajan’s Response
@PrenticeBoy1688
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b What is the relevance of your reply to my post?
@8784-l3b
Жыл бұрын
@@PrenticeBoy1688 you wrote: ...and might organise things like church cleaning... Pliny the Younger wasn't interested in torturing the cleaning staff. -excerpt of Trajan's reply below: You have adopted the right course, my dear Pliny, in examining the cases of those cited before you as Christians; for no hard and fast rule can be laid down covering such a wide question. The Christians are not to be hunted out. If brought before you, and the offense is proved, they are to be punished, but with this reservation - if any one denies he is a Christian, and makes it clear he is not, by offering prayer to our gods, then he is to be pardoned on his recantation, no matter how suspicious his past.
@PrenticeBoy1688
Жыл бұрын
@@8784-l3b I'm sure you're correct, which might be why their tidying the church isn't mentioned in that correspondence.
@abeautifulmoment2714
Жыл бұрын
There are a couple of logical problems with the "Jesus only had male disciples" argument: 1) They were also only Jewish, but we don't go around saying only priests and pastors can be Jews. 2) For Jesus to be recognized as a Rabbi and have credibility among the Jewish people, he needed to have at least 10 male disciples/followers. I used to be a complementarian until I read more scholarship on the issue. Now my heart is pained with how women have been treated by the church for much of history and by the SBC.However, it is a secondary issue, and I am excited to spend eternity with those brothers and sisters in heaven who think differently.
@irishhockey529
Жыл бұрын
A video on the biblical basis for complimentarianism would be fantastic.
@alasdaircampbell-ik2vb
Жыл бұрын
Mike Winger has done a big series on this going through all the key texts, real good!
@FalconOfStorms
Жыл бұрын
I'd like Mike Winger to do one. Alas.
@nickynolfi833
Жыл бұрын
kzitem.info/news/bejne/toV6vmWGsl-Ad2k
@nickynolfi833
Жыл бұрын
This is a conversation between a Catholic and protestant on the topic
@nathansimma1084
Жыл бұрын
@@FalconOfStorms Mike Winger did a big series on it. "Women in ministry"
@blessed8703
Жыл бұрын
Scripture is clear on this in my opinion. I’m a woman and not offended by that, I believe and accept what scripture teaches. Rick Warren should just accept the SBC decision since that’s their belief. He’s the one who changed his belief about this, so it’s right for his church to not be part of SBC. His church seems a lot like a non-denominational church anyway. This is dangerous, as he is a very popular pastor, if he will start teaching wrong things, his congregation and others who follow him might believe him.
@WgtLoss
Жыл бұрын
Right, I agree
@angru_arches
Жыл бұрын
Thank you.
@kristinwannemuehler9757
Жыл бұрын
I am a Catholic and very much agree that St. Paul should be taken at his word and the infallible Word of God does not mince words on this point.
@titosantiago3694
Жыл бұрын
To say, "Scripture is clear" regarding this issue is not accurate at all. This is precisely why it is still a debate within the Church. It may be your understanding, but it is not for others.
@wheatandtares-xk4lp
Жыл бұрын
@@titosantiago3694now that is not true at all! The reason why it's temporarily controversial is because there is a large body of people who claim to be in Christ but value the world over the Word. Of all the things to question, the role of women and men is not one the bible is unclear about, not in the least.
@Presbapterian
Жыл бұрын
Speak the truth in love ❤️ This video is so helpful for understanding how we're supposed to do triage better.
@clarkemorledge2398
Жыл бұрын
Thank you, Gavin. I wish others where as calm and irenic as you are about this (I wish that for myself). My church went through this controversy just a few years ago, and it was a complete disaster, and we are still feeling the effects of it. I do not wish this controversy on any local church.
@humgap
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for your work on KZitem, Gavin! Are you familiar with Rev. Calvin Robinson? It would be so cool to have him on the channel to discuss Protestantism and current affairs. I know you've got a lot on your plate currently though so no pressure!
@davidpinckney1571
Жыл бұрын
Gavin, your work on this does my heart good. Thank you for your humble, scholarly approach! You are a gift to our time! May the Lord continue to bless you!
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