Summer, 1958. The Eisenhower administration announces it is going to stop atmospheric nuclear tests. This doesn’t sit well with Heinlein. So he writes Starship Troopers...
@Noob-fd4ts
6 жыл бұрын
Extra Credits this is such a good history channel
@pyeitme508
6 жыл бұрын
Extra Credits Can you make a Tom Clancy's The Division 2 video just like 2 years ago?! Also this time speculation about the Washington DC whole scenario!
@dawsonparadise7132
6 жыл бұрын
The Sci-Fi episodes have my reading list getting out of hand. Great problem to have.
@brendanobrien8198
6 жыл бұрын
Extra Credits This series is amazing and made me want to read more, from this series could you point out a starting list of 3 to 5 books to read?
@samuelhadjaissa5201
6 жыл бұрын
say may I recommend some authors to talk about there's madeline lengle:wrinkle in time ursela k le guin;hantise cycle Anne mcCarferry:Pern philip k dick:do androids cream of robotic sheep frank herberts:dune ayn rand: atlas shrugged Pierre Christin and Jean-Claude Mézières:while comic line,valerian and laureline I feel like these are authors that have done a lot in the realm of sci fi
@jaredmichael7659
6 жыл бұрын
In Plato's 'The Republic', Socrates determines the veterans are the only ones trustworthy enough to lead the republic. I figured Starship Troopers was partly inspired by that.
@Magnulus76
2 жыл бұрын
Umm... actually, Plato believed philosophers should rule the republic.
@andrewjohnson6716
Жыл бұрын
Social idealist who propose utopian societies often just make societies in which their own self-identities would be disproportionately represented. For instance Plato saw himself as a philosopher-patrician and proposed a society in Republic that would be run by philosopher-patricians.
@jimjohhnston9992
Жыл бұрын
Did he ever specify combat veterans only ? what about those who served as cooks and clerks and chauffeurs
@nyx7842
Жыл бұрын
Plato wanted philosopher kings that had good morals.
@km1dash6
Жыл бұрын
@@Magnulus76 The idea was that there were 4 tiers of society: the general public, the military, city officials, and philosopher kings. The idea was that some people won't join the military, then of those who join the military, some will stay there while others will go on to be civil leaders, then of the civil leaders, some will eventually move on to be a philosopher king. Plato was partially inspired by Sparta.
@brianhowe1982
5 жыл бұрын
I remember reading Starship Troopers while in the Marine Corps. It was pretty good. I've never gotten around to reading his other works though.
@greenbull1191
6 жыл бұрын
I love the outro music so much
@Derekivery
Жыл бұрын
EC: Angered he decides he's done with Juveniles Me: Is he?
@Bigandrewm
6 жыл бұрын
I read Stranger In A Strange Land a few years ago and found it to be disappointingly naive. One of the big points of that book is that extreme power results in extreme humanitarianism, which, given our knowledge of human nature, is really, really, well, naive.
@barrybend7189
6 жыл бұрын
well most libertarians actually forget that Heinlein tells them that socialist economics don't work.
@JohnnyElRed
6 жыл бұрын
Which is also ironic, because societies like the ones in "Starship Troopers" rely in a great government control to work. Full of contradictions indeed.
@barrybend7189
6 жыл бұрын
JohnnyElRed I know but even then that government was not a welfare state which is telling.
@fugitiveunknown7806
6 жыл бұрын
And also ironic considering his earlier views (see: for us, the living) were in favour of social credit.
@sudevsen
6 жыл бұрын
You don't say...
@TheJabbate1
6 жыл бұрын
You’re thinking about the Left-Wing Libertarians. Heinlein strikes to me as a Right-Wing Libertarian.
@porgy29
6 жыл бұрын
I feel Heinlein's work, at least "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" act as their own rebuttals to his philosophy. In "Moon" he has a Character that feels a little like an author insert preaching libertarian values and at first he seems to be 100% correct. But, in the end (Spoilers)... . . . the moon ends up embracing the types of laws and systems that the character was decrying because, you need those sorts of things to actually function. The feeling I get from reading Heinlein (or at least "Moon" and "Stranger") is that "Libertarian/Anarchist systems would be great if it worked, but they don't" which I mostly agree with, they would be good if they worked, except they very much don't.
@danilooliveira6580
6 жыл бұрын
damn... that so weird, Starship Troopers is so exaggerated and over the top militaristic (one of the reason its one of the best military sci fi stories) that I was SURE it was a indirect critic, or at least just designed to work as a military story with a neutral point of view.
@graceskerp
6 жыл бұрын
Let me get this straight: Public service which was strictly voluntary is fascism, but government enforced indenture servitude (sometimes at great risk), the draft, isn't?
@dropmelon
6 жыл бұрын
Most countries are against drafts nowadays and apparently USA is one of countries that have compulsory and voluntary military service. Only men are required must register in the Selective Service System. Like how some people sees public service to get citizenship as fascism, some might see drafts as government trying to take away their freedom. It depends on the person in question.
@TheKillakan87
6 жыл бұрын
Just finished my 3rd readthrough of the book and the ONLY execution shown in it is that of a deserter from the Mobile Infantry who murdered a young girl!
@SnakePlissken25
3 жыл бұрын
One of the many examples of completely ignoring the premises and contexts of the books. It's a really bad and superficial analysis.
@neon0501
2 жыл бұрын
I agree people get an idea in their head and don't have the mental capacity to find out they are wrong. The book starship troopers is often criticized by people who never read the novel.
@jfridy
3 жыл бұрын
Fun bit! Almost every strong woman in his books is based on Virginia, his second wife. Seriously, my Brother in Law grew up near them, and if you know Virginia Heinlein, you see her in every strong woman he writes after about 1948. She's a military veteran, strong willed, multilingual, outspoken biochemist and engineer. Oh, she's also a redhead. She maintained correspondences with Heinlein fans until her death in 2003, and even set up a Usenet group back in the day to talk with fans of her husband's work.
@PavarottiAardvark
6 жыл бұрын
I am always amazed that Starship Troopers is a pre-Vietnam novel.
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
Korea man. It was basically a warm up.
@lorddashdonalddappington2653
6 жыл бұрын
Harry, have you, uh, read the book or seen the movie?
@NightBlado
6 жыл бұрын
Robinson: The forgotten war =/
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
Not so much anymore
@GlacialScion
6 жыл бұрын
Lord Dash Donald Dappington The movie is intensely satirical and its message is in many ways the exact opposite of the book.
@candiduscorvus
6 жыл бұрын
My biggest problem with Heinlein is that his books often included long interludes where two characters would just go back and forth arguing, and it was transparently just Heinlein talking to himself.
@jfridy
3 жыл бұрын
Word of advice. NEVER read Ayn Rand. She loves just having characters go on long speeches about their beliefs, even if the stops the plot of the book for a whole chapter.
@void-creature
2 жыл бұрын
And now, it is time for another episode of 'deep thoughts with Heimlein'...
@Magnulus76
2 жыл бұрын
Yup. He spends alot of time talking about his personal ideology instead of demonstrating how it could actually result in a functional society.
@bilboplayedminecraft3322
Жыл бұрын
This is a benefit of his work
@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517
Жыл бұрын
Yeah I really dislike those parts of his books. In general that trope sucks regardless of the writer's beliefs. Ultimately it led me to realize his work is fairly shallow in scope even if the actual prose is good. I guess Golden Age SF isn't my cup of tea.
@DeanHarper
6 жыл бұрын
If I recall correctly, the service in Starship Troopers wasn't necessarily military. Juan ended up going into the military, sure, but he was given a list of potential ways he could serve and asked to organize them in the order he'd like to do them. He gave up at fifty, implying it was a hell of a long list. In fact, didn't his best friend serve as an electrical engineer on Pluto?
@MapleLeaf2501
6 жыл бұрын
Yep. Hell, he could have even taken a position as a lab rat, and they were some of the best paying gigs!
@RedShocktrooperRST
4 жыл бұрын
@DUDAH The stance I took is that Starship Troopers would have been a far less interesting book if Rico ended up in something other than the Mobile Infantry.
@christopherbacon1077
4 жыл бұрын
Also, if you apply for federal service, you *can not* be turned down, no matter what disabilities you might have. As to a kid being executed that was a case of a deserter who went on to murder a child.
@lincawebot3681
2 жыл бұрын
@@MapleLeaf2501 He failed the exam for that though
@Self-replicating_whatnot
6 ай бұрын
This is what irks me every time Starship Troopers is discussed. Nowadays people seem to omit, through lasy thinking or overt bias, that Heinlien himself put it in no uncertain terms - the way to get better voters is to make people value their vote. End of. It is not about military service, or veteran grit or subservience to the state or what have you, just instilling an understanding that franchise is not to be taken lightly. That it needs to be earned, both a precious right and a solem duty.
@libertylemonz7145
6 жыл бұрын
Doesn't Heinlein explicitly state that there were other paths to being able to vote other than Military service? Anyone with two years of federal service could vote, not just veterans
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
Angel Fox What do you mean? Can you elaborate?
@libertylemonz7145
6 жыл бұрын
Angel Fox I'm just pointing out that there were options other than the military for potential voters Also, it's just two years of service. Many countries, like Israel and South Korea, have mandatory conscription that lasts as long or longer and we don't call those countries fascist for it
@yugytomm
6 жыл бұрын
You could give your preferences and get the job you wanted (if you were qualified and there were vacancies). On the other hand, the service might be prolonged in the time of emergency, irrc.
@lsamaknight
6 жыл бұрын
www.nitrosyncretic.com/pdfs/nature_of_fedsvc_1996.pdf Only in an essay, written decades after the book itself. The actual book itself says differently. At best it's sloppy writing.
@jrs3739
6 жыл бұрын
Indeed, the fascist framing in ST is a picture in which the over-the-top militarism is just one piece.
@yugytomm
6 жыл бұрын
As somebody from the former Eastern Bloc, I can ensure you the Cold War was not resolved peacefully. Many totalitarian communist regimes fell apart only thanks to mass protests and the threat of riots of citizens willing to risk for the common good, perfectly in the line with books themes about political violence and personal responsibility. I understand you may disagree with a bit idealised Heinlein's vision, but I don't think you did justice to Starship Troopers. There are many interesting ideas like that literally everybody can serve, the service includes many other paths than being a soldier, that everybody is a volunteer who can leave at any time or that the state is ruled by the veterans, not the military. IIRC the only executed person is executed for child murder. And your quip about the irony of Tanstaafl doesn't make sense, Earth may have pay for it but it doesn't mean they can keep it after the exploited Moon revolts. (Or if you want to go deeper, originally the free lunch wasn't free because it encouraged spending more on drinks, just like the installation of the supercomputer made Earth's exploitation and control over the Moon easier)
@jrs3739
6 жыл бұрын
No one said it was easy. But the resolution was peaceful in that it didn't happen through a war between the main protagonists of the Cold War. Also, as a German, I'm not sure the D-Mark many East Germans were willing to risk something for can be called a common good in any but the most basic terms... The video is not denying the interesting ideas, it just mention that those ideas are couched in fascist terms. And that's just a fact, mate. Fair enough if you want to admire the interesting ideas in the abstract and ignore the fascist framing. But don't claim the video didn't do the book justice just because you chose to ignore much of it. What about the Tanstaafl bit doesn't make sense? Moon is benefitting from something they got for free, aren't they? That's irrelevant of the intentions with which the free thing was given.
@TheBespectacledN00b
6 жыл бұрын
+JR S (jansalterego) Having very recently read it, didn't seem all that facist to me. Mostly seemed like American Manifest Destiny with a vaguely Roman idea of civic virtue.
@NefariousKoel
6 жыл бұрын
There are many people with dead friends who would say the Cold War certainly wasn't a peaceful ordeal. Thanks for bringing this up. One of the numerous issues needing to be addressed in this episode.
@CheapSushi
5 жыл бұрын
So many people died in the Korean War and Vietnam, which was a proxy of the Cold War.
@UnsolicitedContext
10 ай бұрын
I agree, to me it was more a reflection of the Roman idea of a republic where the leaders had to have served the state and been willing to bleed for it before they could climb its political ranks. And you could very much not serve, you just then couldn’t lead.
@aa-id7li
6 жыл бұрын
People talk a lot about Starship Troopers having required state service to vote like its the end of the world. Then forget that half of us have to sign up for selective service or face jail time and several nations do the same for everyone and they manage just fine. At least the people in Starship Troopers had non military options.
@9drtr
6 жыл бұрын
Also, federal civil service in Starship Troopers is voluntary. You don't have to serve, and you don't have to vote. Another mistake the narrator made was that Heinlein didn't say that military service trains you to be more willing to vote for the wellbeing of the group as a whole, but that military service gives evidence that you are by inclination more willing to vote for the wellbing of the group as a whole. Completely different.
@XMeK
6 жыл бұрын
Something that is often missed is that you can also become a Tax Payer who gains the right to vote through their financial support of the state.
@9drtr
6 жыл бұрын
Not in the book. One character mentioned that tax payers have rights, but there is no indication that voting is among them.
@aa-id7li
6 жыл бұрын
I vaguely remember that they mentioned that voter payed taxes but not that paying taxes made you a voter. That required some form of state service no matter what.
@thomassmith6232
4 жыл бұрын
Heinlein was also opposed to a military draft.
@rayriehle9948
6 жыл бұрын
I don't think he closely read Starship Troopers. The requirement to run for office was a limited 2 year service akin to the Peace Corps. I think he missed on some of the very consequential female characters in other works.
@DocFlamingo
4 жыл бұрын
Leftists have been told by their priesthood that Heinlein is evil and that's good enough for them.
@mariustan9275
2 жыл бұрын
Sometimes you read a book a second time, extra details appear that you didn't notice. Remember sometimes there are inaccuracies because of time restraints or, in this case not reading over and over
@dougformerlysekkohegane9303
2 жыл бұрын
Eunice/Joan are put to the side I suppose.
@superidot1
2 жыл бұрын
@@mariustan9275 Fair point. But considering the other videos published by extra credits we can safely say there is a bias. Which would be fine, and this particular video isn't the worst they have put out. However there's a fine line between stating your beliefs and misrepresenting your opponents... the latter is understandably going to make you look bad and make people angry. It's also hard to excuse when there's such glaring errors. If they didn't want to read the books enough to fully understand them, then they simply shouldn't bother doing a video on it. Still like to watch their videos, but it's always disappointing to watch videos like this.
@Magnulus76
2 жыл бұрын
@@DocFlamingo I recognized the book was problematic long before any "leftist" told me about it, ever since I read it.
@haroldfeld
5 жыл бұрын
I think you miss a far more nuanced understanding of Heinlien, but so do most. First, you don't seem to consider that many of these "inconsistencies" are potentially deliberate. There is a great deal of textual evidence in Heinlien's books that he is aware of inconsitencies of which his main character is oblivious. A few examples, in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, we are presented with many different views of society, from Stuart La Jollie's Monarchism to Professor De La Paz's "rationale anarchism" to Manny's apparent indifference. in the end, *none* of these philosophies wins out. Heinlien raises many questions, shows many alternatives, but he leaves conclusions to the reader. Likewise, Heinlien is fairly explicit in a number of places that the barrier to women having equality in the workplace is male chauvinism and male ego. The most obvious example of this is Brooks McNye in the short story "Delilah and the Space Rigger." But we see Hazel Stone complain in The Rolling Stones that she left her engineering employer and started her own shop when she saw "4 hirsuite and less talented" men get promoted over her. Additionally, I think that you underappreciate how radical Heinlien was on women's equality and racial equality when he began his carrier. Even in the early 1960s, when Stranger and Moon were written, the mere presence of characters of color in prominent roles was almost unheard of. The insertion of characters like Mr. Kiku in a young adult novel was quite daring. If he seems racist and retrograde today, it is in no small part because he and others were the first to push the "Overton" window and prompt white boys in the 1950s to see a future word where men of different colors and nationalities lived together without a color bar or distinction. With regard to the "competent man" trope, you appear to miss that many of these competent men are portrayed as arrogant, unlikeable, easily manipulated because of their overconfidence, ego and vanity, or simply wrong. Heinlien does not give the characters an "aha" moment of self-realization. But we have plenty of folks around them and clues in the text. All of the "competent men" in Moon is a Harsh Mistress have moments of weakness, moments when they are wrong, and times they make bad decisions. Some are downright immoral. Mike, for example, murders surrendered prisoners in cold blood by crashing the space carrier as the "prudent course," But Heinlien gives us no textual approval or disapproval of the morality of this action. It can be taken either as a sign that Mike cannot be trusted because as a machine he has no real human empathy or morality, or accepted as 'prudent' (although Heinlien in other books suggests that he regards such murders as immoral). In short, the basic question is whether Heinlien, with his often contradictory big ideas and contradictory characters, is really taking sides or challenging the reader. At this point, I close by strongly recommending Lindsay Ellis' piece on the untrustworthy narrator.
@carloscaro9121
6 жыл бұрын
You make a serious error regarding Starship Troopers. Heinlein does not claim the veterans govern well or wisely, only that the system is stable and that people value the right to vote because they paid dearly for it. Outside dissent is difficult because in order to be eligible to vote for change or run for office, you have to enter federal service (which is not always military). To paraphrase Heinlein, they have made the ones with the gumption to rebel into the guardians of the system; anyone left to rebel is a parlor punk. Agree or disagree with Heinlein, he has Mr. Dubois specifically call out the idea of veterans being "picked men" as idiotic.
@Mike-zx7lq
6 жыл бұрын
That's definitely the vibe I got. I don't anywhere remember the novel communicating to me that it was actually the ideal world, or that it was ruled well. It had people fighting wars against aliens for unknown reasons, indefinitely, just to basically maintain itself as I recall. It was definitely an idyllic adventure, and it had a lot of thoughts to communicate, but I don't recall it feeling like a wholehearted endorsement.
@TheBespectacledN00b
6 жыл бұрын
+Mike Regarding the bugs, it's seemed to me it was due to the two civilisations being fundamentally incompatible. Now, that might be my reading having been influenced by later works with bug like aliens inspired by Heinlein. Also as it's the POV of the poor bloody infantry and not the Sky Marshal, it might just be a commentary on how the lower ranks are not always privy to the big picture and tend to focus on their immediate comrades.
@drewpamon
6 жыл бұрын
Ender's game is on the US marine official reading list
@BaronVonTacocat
5 жыл бұрын
Good.
@kevinsullivan3448
5 жыл бұрын
The enemy gate is always down.
@marcj212
4 жыл бұрын
Starship troopers and Enders game have been two of my favorite books as a young adult and from parents and family who introduced me to them and also told me stories from their time in the military I found both even more interesting
@leviwhitney2581
6 жыл бұрын
I remember back in the early 2000s, the Marines I was serving with saw Starship Troopers on the Commandant's Required Reading List (later renamed the Recommended Reading List under a different Commandant), and the usual reaction was "What the Hell is THAT doing on the list!?"
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
It's the only one on the list I remember.
@leviwhitney2581
6 жыл бұрын
WHAT!? You mean you don't remember A Message for Garcia!? Take a lap, Devil Dog! A three mile lap!
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
I read that on Duty, and it was barely a pamphlet. I'm not counting that as a book. That was a gift to the grunts who needed a checkmark for their paperwork and had enough integrity not to blow it off.
@leviwhitney2581
6 жыл бұрын
Oh, memories... :)
@SantomPh
6 жыл бұрын
Well you have to be exposed to what happens when the military loses its mind.
@palmweaver
6 жыл бұрын
I should say first that I really love the Extra Credits channel and all of the work you guys put into it. That being said, you REALLY should have read Starship Troopers before making this video. You've missed pertinent details like Rico being Filipino, Dubois specifically calling out the idea of veterans being any better, and the fact that the option of service did not normally mean just military enlistment. And while none of those details appear on the Starship Troopers Wikipedia page for the book, anyone who has read it knows that Heinlein made a point to put those aspects there. --------------- I love your work, but I'd love to see you remake this video and accurately analyze Starship Troopers.
@Aeonicentity
6 жыл бұрын
This was a great video, but I think it drifts into serious speculation at the end that Heinlein was never forced to consider outside world views, or what life is like for other people. I think that this is wild speculation offered without evidence at best. They say write what you know. Heinlein stayed in his Lane, and wrote male stories for male readers. Specialization breeds competence at the task, and I think that you're biased against him because he's not 'progressive'. You too not have to be 'progressive' to have good ideas, or ideas worth considering.
@Alexander-tu3iv
6 жыл бұрын
The bit about Starship troopers was quite biased in my view. With the accuser side being let off easy despite their being a lot of reasons why the federation isn't at all fascist, democracy existing for example. While the "apologists" don't present a proper counterargument and you add your own counterargument to their view which you didn't do for the accusers. Starship troopers has some valid arguments to make. The main one being the idea that voting is worth more if you have sacrificed something for it. Millitary service is obviously a bit over the top, but having to work a number of hours for a charity or other volunteer organisations could be argued for. I think the idea that the right to vote shouldn't just be handed to you has merit especially in our modern society where increasingly people are criticizing and turning against the idea of democracy.
@rajrigby8385
3 жыл бұрын
Australia enters the chat
@andrewwarwick1597
6 жыл бұрын
I wonder if they actually read Starship Troopers because there are a few things they say that don't quite mesh with the book. All democracies limit their vote in some form - even we do, based on things like age and criminal record. The book version limited it based on those willing to a term of service. They are required to find work for anyone who volunteers even if they are blind and in a wheelchair. That was their constitutional right. And those who volunteer can quit at any time and suffer nothing but not being able to get to vote. Service was not restricted to just military - the book focuses on it because that is the story. But there were plenty of non-military jobs as well. Juan's friend Carl went in to R&D as a scientist, not a military man (unlike in the movie). And the claim that the government would be better because of the discipline of the military man was explicitly denied in the book as well - during Juan's OCS training it is said that the veterans were no more disciplined than non-veterans, committed crime at the same rate and were fact no better than those who didn't serve. And for the time it was written, it was very tolerant of other cultures - you had Germans and Japanese and this not long after WWII, and a range of others as well. Even Rico himself - he was a Filipino.
@redenginner
6 жыл бұрын
Yeah, you could go into work other than the military. Working in public works as a civil engineer, working as a teacher, etc.
@mahj
6 жыл бұрын
That's still putting in years of work supporting a system you may not agree with before you have a tiny chance of changing it.
@geraldgrenier8132
6 жыл бұрын
supporting the country not the system, and DOESN"T require party affiliation you can be policy opposed all you want.
@jackjmaheriii
6 жыл бұрын
@andrew Great response! Because the narrator of this video views the world through a neo-Marxist lens, he sees any merit based system as inherently totalitarian. His editor must be of similar bent because he miss read the text is so glaring that it almost seems purposeful.
@andrewwarwick1597
6 жыл бұрын
Baring a state of emergency, such as a war, which didn't happen a lot, you could retire a veteran with the vote in the setting after just 2 years (plus the half year of training). So before your 21st birthday.
@manlystranger4973
6 жыл бұрын
Heinlein is very similar to Gene Roddenberry in the sense both men gave us visions of a future full of ideas for a better humanity, yet neither man could personally overcome or perhaps even see the limitations imposed on their own thinking and views by their historical experience. Both men aspired to be more than they were and shared those aspirations with the rest of us. As with most Utopian ideas, much of the structure breaks down in the details, but to paint even have the broad strokes of the vision... that is blessing these writers and idea generators have bestowed upon us.
@lodovicoodak9401
6 жыл бұрын
I don’t think you actually read starship troopers, I think you just looked at the plot on Wikipedia
@ElijahDecker
6 жыл бұрын
Everyone calling the society in Starship Troopers fascist doesn't know what fascism is. Fascism is a very specific socioeconomic system that tries (and fails) to bridge the divided interests of labor, capital, and the state by making them all work in service of the nation. It is not synonymous with militarism. I'm not advocating for the type of government in Starship Troopers. I just hate it when people mischaracterize an idea as fascism, because it tends to make people condemn the idea without consideration. Also unmentioned in the video: Starship Troopers helped end the draft and create the all volunteer U.S. military.
@Vorengard
6 жыл бұрын
All these critiques of Starship Troopers miss the most critical line in the book, where the recruiting officer tells the main character that no person is ever refused the the right to state service, even if they're blind and crippled. Even more importantly, state service was not strictly military. People could, in the case of the blind cripple, spend their tour of service "counting the hairs on a caterpillar by feel" because what was important was *the desire to serve,* not the actual service. This is what stops it from being blatantly Fascistic.
@yonokhanman654
6 жыл бұрын
@Vorengard, isn't the "desire to serve" the essence of fascism?
@Freekymoho
6 жыл бұрын
Fascism is the enforcement of a single political doctrine and the absence of any representative system of government. From what i can gather, real elections were held in starship troopers and anyone could earn the right to vote
@Vorengard
6 жыл бұрын
freakymoejoe2 yes, it does sound like there were real elections. But that definition of fascism isn't really accurate. The absence of representation is also found in other government forms, such as Communism, monarchies, your garden-variety dictatorships, and so on. Fascism is not a catch-all phrase for "non-democracy."
@rmsgrey
6 жыл бұрын
The key is not "the desire to serve" but that people earn the right to vote by making a personal sacrifice - anyone can vote, but they have to want it enough to put their own plans on hold for a couple of years - or be selfless enough that they do desire to serve (in which case they're probably the sort of person you want voting anyway).
@Faerindel
6 жыл бұрын
While I would just call ST super-militaristic and not exactly pro-fascist, I have to point that in a pro-fascist pamphlet the people portrayed as heros wouldn't be ones forced to serve. Rather ones that would throw themselves to Serve The Country.
@coryrobertson6367
6 жыл бұрын
For me, T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. is more of a reminder of the basic laws of physics. All systems require energy to be sustained, there is no perpetual motion. Nothing is free. There is always a cost, making one choice precludes the option of making a different choice. All movement has friction and there is a transaction cost in every exchange. What's funny about T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L., if interpreted literally, is it appears false. Of course there is such thing a free lunch, I had one the other day when my friend took me out, but, if the situation is looked at closely, there are hidden costs. Perhaps I wont get to choose where we eat, or if I do get to choose I will have to limit my choices to places we both can go. When I decide on the meal I will have to consider their budget. The lunch can only last as long as what is reasonable for both of us. The act of accepting the free lunch may make me feel obligated to reciprocate later. Then there is the time spent at the lunch that could be spent doing something else. And the list goes on and on. There really is no such thing as a free lunch.
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
Hence, why the lunch wasn't "free." There was a social cost to eating it.
@gamongames
6 жыл бұрын
Aaand then you remember humans only evolved to create entire civilizations by grouping together and specializing so much that almost every work you do in life isn't directly related to your lunch's presence or absence from your table and someone will always handle most of your effort to survive for you. Anyone who disagrees can start refusing to participate in social interactions, including economic ones, and go fend for themselves in a forest.
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
Gabriela Montemor No one disagrees. In fact, you just agreed with us. Not sure why your tone is so hostile.
@gamongames
6 жыл бұрын
if you think no one disagrees with what I said you need to get out more.
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
Gabriela Montemor No one HERE disagrees with what you said.
@novaterra973
6 жыл бұрын
Despite the fact that I would be kind of people he preaches against in many of his books, I find Heinlein's works thought-provoking and intriguing, which shows his strength as writer.
@superidot1
2 жыл бұрын
And it also shows your strength of character to not feel a need to rebuke him even though you have different beliefs
@magister343
6 жыл бұрын
The Moon is Harsh Mistress is not set in a Polygamous society, but a Polyamorous one. Polyandry is much more common than polygamy, as there are more males on the moon than females. The most common form of marriage is a triad where two husbands share one wife. The protagonists are a but unusual in that they are part of a line marriage with equal numbers of males and females.
@paulchapman8023
6 жыл бұрын
magister343 Polygyny (multiple wives) and polyandry (multiple husbands) are both forms of polygamy (multiple spouses).
@robertmiller9735
6 жыл бұрын
People do use polygamy to mean just polygyny in common parlance though, since most people have never heard of the idea of polyandry (I've had this argument before).
@paulchapman8023
6 жыл бұрын
But that doesn't change the fact that polyandry is a form of polygamy.
@magister343
6 жыл бұрын
It also does not change the fact that the Lunar society was polyamorous rather than just polygamous. It was not only a place where group marriages and polyandry were common, but also where sexual exclusivity among married partners was not generally expected. Some relationships were closed, but it was more common for husband and wives to tolerate their partners having casual sex with other people. Marriages, regardless of how many husbands or wives they involved, were seen as economic units meant to provide the stability needed to raise healthy children and not as the only legitimate expression of love or sexuality. Prostitutes were also highly respected. The protagonist has recreational sex with a couple women outside his relationship without consulting his long term partners beforehand, but no one considers this infidelity and it never occurs to him to be ashamed or keep it a secret from his wives or co-husbands. He is friends-with-benefits with another women for a while before he decides to introduce her to the family, who also hooks up with a couple of his spouses long before they all know each other well enough to vote on whether to invite her to join the group marriage.
@jeb791
6 жыл бұрын
Is Switzerland fascist because they have mandatory military service or Israel
@joluoto
6 жыл бұрын
No, but you can vote in both countries and run for office even if you haven't done military service. In Heinleinia you wouldn't, and more so it would be the State that ddecides whether you do military serivice or not i.e. whether you become a citizen of the society or not.
@jeb791
6 жыл бұрын
In the book the service is completely voluntary at any point you can quit unlike meany countries that still have conscription
@viorelviorel2324
6 жыл бұрын
Jonathan Luoto this is wrong the only thing denied to people is the right to vote and you gain that by service any service
@StefanMertnik
6 жыл бұрын
The State didn't decide whether yo do service or not. They couldn't even reject a volunteer. Read the book, there are explicit examples.
@Gamerad360
5 жыл бұрын
@@joluoto No, you lose your citizenship in Switzerland if you don't serve, and can't vote.
@TheKillakan87
6 жыл бұрын
And another thing, the book Starship Troopers NEVER said that violence is always the BEST solution, it only debunks the idea that violence DOES NOT settle ANYTHING (a popular so-called "progressive" idea). As for that business about the Cold War ending "peacefully", there is a FINE LINE between "PEACE" and a "Declared War". Lets see you tell the people of Korea, Vietnam, Latin America and parts of Africa that the Cold War was settled peacefully! Was the EVER a time in history when there not being a war declared meant that there was no fighting? 1918, a squabble in a border town, with the Mexican border literally down the middle of a road dividing an American town in half across the border, Mexican and American troops started SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER! But a war was NEVER declared and despite a few deaths on both sides, nothing came of the battle except a fence through the middle of the town. (The battle of Nogales, AZ/,Mexico 1918) To quote Heinlein's military syfy masterpiece "you are just as dead if you buy the farm in an "incident" as you are if you buy it in a declared war..."
@twoscarabsintheswarm9055
4 жыл бұрын
The book starship troopers, from what I've seen, says you don't have to militarily serve, but infact, there are at least 50 jobs you can do, maybe more. You don't even have to serve, for those who are crippled or blind or as such, for the blind ones they can "feel the amount of hairs on a cattapilar" to paraphrase, meaning it's not just serving that helps you, but the idea and desire to serve
@harrisonlee9585
6 жыл бұрын
The greatest quip about Starship Troopers was Rod Serling saying, "Somewhere along the line, Robert forgot to insert a plot."
@matthewjanzen4837
6 жыл бұрын
Submitted for your approval one Robert Heinlein. A writer of armies clashing on a distant rock for their planet lost in the night sky. His book would have been one of the greats, if Robert had remembered to insert a plot. Instead, that story lies forgotten in The Twilight Zone.
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
Trust me, if anything that's the most realistic part of the book. Military life is mostly anticlimax. Rico only tangentially knowing the most important person to the events of the main conflict is just enough to give the audience a reason to notice the guy.
@DrTssha
6 жыл бұрын
Yeah, that seems consistent with what little I can remember about the book. I mean, I didn't even read it that long ago. The book itself was just very unmemorable.
@Leptospirosi
6 жыл бұрын
Actually, IMO, what makes the film better then the book (burn the heretic!!!) is that in the film Paul Verhoeven plays around the nonsense of the militaristic plot to the point that forces and plays the nonsensical part, portraying the behaviour of the main characters as John Milius's Big Wensday ones (except may be Duboise) instead of gritty veterans coming back even more resolute but never questioning the events he went by. The film is just enjoyable to watch because it's filled with puns, where the book is just lacklustre and washed out sequence of battle with no inquiring about the the war except for the "survival of our side" part. You start feeling for the human side waiting for a moral justification for the conflict, then you try to understand the reasons for the insect, and after a while you stop bothering and just enjoy the surreality of what's going on, like in Dr. Strangelove. Thinking about it, Ender's game came as a mirror reflection about Starship troopers, where the main character moral implications and the reasons of the enemy are actually taken in account and, while Ender matures with the progression of the plot, Rico just sticks to the part of the war machine, physically and morally as a perfectly fitting gear wheel, if possible, more honed and refined to the role.
@ilitardo160
6 жыл бұрын
Matthew Janzen 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 hell flipping yes!
@Kurdtzdopelgangr
6 жыл бұрын
I started reading Heinlein during my time in the army. I started with starship troopers and stopped reading after time enough for love. Starship troopers really struck me with how accurate many parts of it was about military life in terms of specific things that occur during basic training and the general military culture. It also struck me with how inaccurate it was in depicting service members. The idea of every person in the military having near perfect discipline and teamwork is honestly just laughable. We're just people too, after all. I can speak for most service members when I say we do believe that sacrificing for the greater good is important, but don't forget that we aren't automatons and we don't exist in a vacuum where the only thing we have to worry about is serving to the best of our ability. That said, the idea of being a super perfect soldier fighting aliens in my suit of super power armor was fun, even if it depicted war and enemies in an unrealistic light. Time enough for love made me move on from his writing completely, though. The incest elements were just distasteful, especially towards the end of the book.
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
It was a product of it's time. The US hadn't been on the wrong side of asymmetric tactics in a major way yet. That said, if you liked Troopers but wanted something a little more realistically irreverent, try Old Man's War.
@barrybend7189
6 жыл бұрын
Morgan Robinson Or something a little different like Frank Herbert's Dune which actually does things to the opposite of Hienline. And probably tackles what he forgot.
@morganrobinson8042
6 жыл бұрын
Dune is very much the plot of a pulp adventure clothed in Sociopolitical-allegory in pretty close parallel to US intervention in the Middle East, especially Iran. It's actually pretty prescient as to the results of those actions too. It does not, however, have anything resembling actually military tactics. In fact, every fight is won pretty explicitly because the author decided it was going to be that way and gave the Paul the exact tools he needed to do it. God was pretty much his co-pilot.
@barrybend7189
6 жыл бұрын
Morgan Robinson I meant about Hienline's philosophy not military culture.
@Faerindel
6 жыл бұрын
Well, he did serve in the Navy in the interwar period. Was discharged for medical reasons and refused for the same when he tried to rejoin for WWII. So he was privy to military life, but didn't see war in the face.
@TheSkyRender
6 жыл бұрын
Heinlein is a shining example of how an author will inevitably insert a part of their own philosophy into whatever they write, and also of the importance of zeitgeist. Much of what he wrote was very progressive or even controversial for the time. In a modern context, his social stances look occasionally offensive and often backwards or ignorant, and always flawed. But you have to keep the context of the original writing in mind. Society marches on, propelled in part by authors like Heinlein forcing people to confront the absurdities of the prevailing mindsets of the time (and highlighting those absurdities with deliberate flaws meant to show just how twisted such thinking is). You must always remember what society was like at the time of a piece's writing when you evaluate it, because that will tell you far more than any perspective you might gain from how society is at the time of review.
@Faerindel
6 жыл бұрын
I'd say Heinlein wrote TO insert his philosophy. Hell, when I was reading Starship Troopers I felt sometimes as if Heinlein was screaming "You system is SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!" at me.
@willymakeit5172
6 жыл бұрын
Well said.
@Magnulus76
2 жыл бұрын
Little or nothing about Heinlein's views was progressive.
@dookie_12
6 жыл бұрын
A 1959 book featuring a democratic meritocracy is quite progressive in the pre Civil Rights America. Voting rights based on service and societal contributions is certainly better than using racial boundaries, but alas, we’re just going the be lazy an call it fascist so we can continue our sky screaming instead of dissecting the content in a level headed manner.
@filipeamaral216
6 жыл бұрын
At 3 minutes into this video and I already have enough. This is not an honest presentation of Starship Troopers. The Eisenhower administration renounces the nuclear tests in a mutual deal with the Soviets, which EVERYBODY knows the Ruskies are going to ignore and - SURPRISE, SURPRISE - they immediatly do! And no, the Cold War did not end by pacific means... which also detracts from the message of the movie: small unit warfare, not simply a Push Button War. Second: "And young characters being beaten or executed for undisciplined behavior is portrayed as a good thing" No, no, no... The only person executed was a deserter of the Mobile Infantry who kidnapped, raped and killed a little girl. He was sentenced to death and executed. The Federation Terra is NOT a dictatorship. It is a democracy but the voter must perform service to the Federation first (something given has no value). Just look at Switzerland with its citizen militia. The opposite is the exact definition of our current snowflake generation. Heinlein was a visionary whose predictions really came to pass (especially juvenile delinquency and socio-political levity). This video omitted all the praise and awards Starship Troopers received, always putting Heinlein's points in a bad light or just twisting them altogether. Criticism of the book has centered on its political aspects, always because it is anti-communist, not because people are really worried about freedom. The narrative from this video being anything but honest and proving yet again an agenda against the book. Bad Extra Credits, very bad!
@MapleLeaf2501
6 жыл бұрын
In many ways, his way even more progressive than somewhere like Switzerland too. At least in SST, as long as it was a public service job, it counted as service. Military was the one focused one because that is what Rico choose, but you could have been a garbage collector or a public law clerk and that would have count too. Switzerland's conscription for the longest time was purely military, until a bit recently where there is a option to opt out of the army and into a special peacekeeping force (mostly to do things like rescues, or relief efforts and such) that isn't armed, although it is a minority that take that route.
@PackerBronco
5 жыл бұрын
I pretty much stopped too. Life is too short to waste time on people who can't do their homework before pontificating.
@tpaktop2_1na
6 жыл бұрын
Will you guys do a series on Philip K. Dick? So many of his books are philosophical and social in concepts. I think he would be an interesting sci-fi author to highlight.
@janmelantu7490
3 жыл бұрын
“Love should be free from societal taboos…unless it’s gay lol” -Robert Heinlein
@MightyElo
5 жыл бұрын
My Dad and I listened to the audio book "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" as I we were driving from California to Alabama a couple of months ago for my new job. While some of the ideas were a little strange in the book and some of the "futuristic technology" dated, I really did enjoy listening to it. Mike (the computer in story) is my favorite character in the book.
@bombsawaylemay770
5 жыл бұрын
If you think Starship Troopers is "fascist" then you either do not know what fascism is or need to reread the book.
@momparty
6 жыл бұрын
Oh no! Heinlein's one of my favorite authors! I haven't read his whole catalogue, but I super enjoyed how "the moon is a harsh mistress" took a realistic view on revolutions in society. I honestly thought starship troopers had as much of a sarcastic undertone as the film did. And while Friday got... a little uncomfortable at times, it was sorta neat seeing a female protagonist agent bound up in stoicism. I laughed out loud in SiaSL when they played Gustav Holtz's Mars theme in full as their national anthem. It is an interesting take, certainly from an angle I'd never seen before. I'll have to research this a lot more. I'll overlook the bias implied from the rest of the comment section if you'll do me the biggest favor of at least mentioning Ian M. Banks's Culture series though. You want post-roddenberrian dream utopias? You GOT post roddenberrian dream utopias! (And if you haven't heard of it drop what you're doing and read them, they're amazing, Excession, Player of Games, Surface Detail and The Hydrogen Sonata are, to me, just the greatest scifi in the world.)
@malcomalexander9437
6 жыл бұрын
Y'know the can't vote without government service thing gets kinda weird because the government has to accept any and all applicants who can comprehend the oath of service. Physical ability or disability doesn't matter, if you are mentally competent enough to understand the oath and what it means, then they *have* to accept you and give you a job.
@malcomalexander9437
6 жыл бұрын
You could be blind and lame and they would still have to give you a job.
@MapleLeaf2501
6 жыл бұрын
The army recruiter Rico speaks to is missing both his legs and a arm, plus is all scarred up pretty much where there is visible skin (a tactic the armed forces did on purpose to make recruits realize the possible harm they may face), and he could comprehend his oath and wanted to serve in its forces. So the army gave him a positions, tools in order to perform said position and allowed him to get to work. That's pretty damn progressive of a so called "fascist" government that could have just forgotten about him after all he did for his nation, so he can just starve and beg on a street... Oh wait...
@iasimov5960
6 жыл бұрын
People that haven't read Heinlein are unlikely to view this video. Those that have read Heinlein are apt to note how spotty is your accuracy about his works and ideas.
@rpike70
2 жыл бұрын
@2:07 "the Cold war, which ended up being resolved peacefully." Well, you sure proved Heinlein wrong. There will never be a war again. I'm writing this in April 2022. @1:59: "In hindsight this ends up being somewhat ironic"...
@RoyalFusilier
6 жыл бұрын
The tone of this video is astonishing. Literally Genghis Khan received a far more sympathetic portrayal than Robert Heinlein, which is odd. Even for somebody who is leaning towards your position and your perspective of, and skepticism of, stuff like Libertarianism, this was just too much for me. The video does do a good job of showing how controversial Heinlein was, but maybe too much. Not to mention that in seeking to make things comprehensible as is the channel's style, well. When the video has such a strong negative tone through some of it, and details are sanded down and even omitted, those two things combine to feel like you either legit didn't know things like that in Starship Troopers, the 'service' wasn't just necessarily military, or that you did know, but felt it was against the point of the argument to include, you know, facts like that. It's a bad look. Which is really unfortunate, because I was looking forward to the Heinlein bits. It's not like this is the worst video ever, either, it's still good, and I especially love the art. Heinlein's rocket-ship bed when he was ill was one of those cute details your art people are great at. It's just that the tone stuff badly impacted my enjoyment as a viewer.
@misomiso8228
6 жыл бұрын
1:23 I lvoe your series, but you guys are getting more and more political - 'Heilein apologists try to reconcile...while ignoring' is a very loaded statement. The book has a lot of problems, but painting it as facist is lazy.
@DynamoNED
6 жыл бұрын
Extra Credits, you do some great work, but this feels much more like a hit piece on Heinlein himself than an actual examination of his work. I think this is the first time I've ever actively disliked one of your extra Sci-Fi videos.
@Nipah.Auauau
6 жыл бұрын
1:32 *2-4 years of government service in military, scientific, or HR positions.
@luciussvartwulf6630
5 жыл бұрын
"there's no such thing as a free lunch." this is not wrong. even today when you get something for "free" often enough there is a price for it (often personal information, which is then sold to 3rd parties). As someone once put it really well "if you're not paying for the product, you likely are the product."
@r0kus
6 жыл бұрын
Two of Heinlein's later works, _I Will Fear No Evil_ and _Job,_ I think fill out his maturing ideas on feminism and society. Personally, I don't look at _Starship Troopers_ as that significant of a book, much preferring his more family oriented _The Rolling Stones._ Another early book, _Citizen of the Galaxy,_ I enjoyed a lot because it was a traditional coming of age story. You know, slave boy meets spy, eventually becomes the head of a huge industrial corporation. That kind of thing. :)
@stevenburke3497
5 жыл бұрын
I love all the novels you mentioned!
@DrLynch2009
6 жыл бұрын
Yep, this become a hit piece.
@starbomber
4 жыл бұрын
I think the Heinlein book that sticks with me the most is not Starship Troopers or Stranger (honestly I couldn't get all the way through stranger :/ ) It's actually Friday. Most people see Friday as one of his weaker novels, and I agree, it has some glaring inconsistencies, but the things it talks about are still being discussed today. What does it mean to be human? Does an artificial human have human rights (Heinlein: "YES!") Can an autopilot fly a plane better than a person? It was those small things that I remembered. I also remembered Friday getting paid in gold which seems dated and maybe a little optimistic today.
@KellyParks
4 жыл бұрын
"Military rule"?! There is no military rule in the book because no one in the military has the right to vote or run for office. You only have that right if you voluntarily join Federal service (of which Military service is a small part), finish your two year term, then leave and become a civilian again. Describing that as military rule is just nonsense.
@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384
6 жыл бұрын
FOR THE EMPEROR!
@meinraddreizacker5845
6 жыл бұрын
Dalton Conrad just one thing to say....... DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR! HAIL HORUS! AVE DOMINUS NOX! BLESSED BE THE DAEMON PRIMARCHS! PRAISE BE THE RUINOUS POWERS! DOWN WITH THE IMPERIUM.
@merrittanimation7721
6 жыл бұрын
...Burn the heretic
@DrTssha
6 жыл бұрын
The Emperor protects.
@strangent404a7
6 жыл бұрын
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
@justcomments1239
5 жыл бұрын
BANZAIIII
@AthrunZalaZaft
6 жыл бұрын
I've watched every episode of extra sci-fi, and this one is frankly, colossally disappointing. The series so far has been overwhelming a fairly even-handed exploration of the birth and growth of a genre, but this episode was dedicated almost exclusively to panning one of the great authors in the modern canon; it suffered for it. Episodes more in line with exploring the literature, and less so with the character of the author in question (Lovecraft has his own sins to account for), play much better to the strengths of the series.
@AthrunZalaZaft
6 жыл бұрын
Ultimately that boils down to a values call, and a societal perspective. I have no particularly strong feelings on Heinlein's societies beyond their being oddly sociopolitically singleminded and wildly unrealistic, but to refuse to even examine the man's ideas without disdain is just narrow minded.
@redenginner
6 жыл бұрын
+Literal Garbage Exactly, i wonder why they missed some of the really weird stuff. Like time traveling back and forwards to marry your best friends niece when she turns 20. Or the swansong that was variable star, the technically final work finished and published years after his death. They really missed out on alot of the weird/cool stuff on the journey to the pretty disrespectful end. Plus the MI are one of the more OP power armored units in sci-fi/fantasy. Only really getting bested one on one when you reach Space Marines levels of power.
@geraldgrenier8132
6 жыл бұрын
Angel Fox, you can find his idea bonkers and talk about , but what you can't do is lie abourt the content of the those books to do so
@mrkerochan
6 жыл бұрын
It's quite obvious that no one at EC actually bothered to read Starship Troopers... Rather they read the cliff notes
@holydoggo4822
6 жыл бұрын
another great video with a terrible pun, great work
@jewperbro
6 жыл бұрын
Guys please stop editorializing it's really obvious and it's kinda rude to talk down to your audience like their idiots if they don't agree with your option.
@yonokhanman654
6 жыл бұрын
Wait, there is a book called "Starship Troopers"? I've only seen the movie, which is a deconstruction of militarism.
@bryanmcclure2220
6 жыл бұрын
Yono khanman the movie and the book are very different. The writers of movie made a lot of changes.
@GlenKStraughn
6 жыл бұрын
From what I've heard, the movie wasn't even originally going to be an adaptation until someone pointed out how similar the premise was to that of the book.
@crimsoncrawdad6123
6 жыл бұрын
Also a lot of the point of starship troopers is an arguement against the book and therefore heinlein
@jonhendrickson1382
6 жыл бұрын
Yup. The book and the movie have nothing in common other than they're called "Starship Troopers" and the protagonist is named Juan Rico.
@MrClickity
6 жыл бұрын
It's worth a read. Fascist leanings aside, he does offer some pretty interesting perspectives on military structure and training. He advocates doing away with the straight-to-officer academies and such in modern militaries. Instead, everyone starts at the bottom and those who have served a few years and show promise are picked for OCS. He also designs the military to be completely voluntary, hard to get in, and easy to get out. Recruiters essentially try to scare you off and talk you out of it. It's treated like something you have to want to earn, not something you're obligated to do.
@VashdaCrash
6 жыл бұрын
Wait, when you talk about the irony of the revolt plan from the moon people being for free for their citizens, didn't they pay for that with their taxes? Or the AI came from another place?
@gamongames
6 жыл бұрын
AngelHQ everyone on the moon colony were prisoners used as slave labor.
@VashdaCrash
6 жыл бұрын
Then, did they stole the AI? Nevermind, thanks for the response.
@georgethompson913
6 жыл бұрын
you could argue they payed through the act of stealing and the effort involved
@superidot1
2 жыл бұрын
Its such a weird point because all we have to do is remember the author is pro conflict and war. He's not advocating for revolution as a political policy... it was conflict Seriously think about the implication and how silly it is. It would be like saying one dosnt believe in no free lunchs if they take resources from their enemies in war. The idea is someone has to pay for the lunch. It's not free. It dosnt mean never ever take anything...
@VashdaCrash
2 жыл бұрын
@@superidot1 That'd explain why I struggle to get the point, since I'm against conflict and war. Specially at large scale.
@Alpenjodler1
3 жыл бұрын
Are there different versions of these books? When I read Stranger, I saw Mike being confused that the old men distinguish between homosexuality and heterosexuality and in Starship Troopers I saw a military machine that didn't see the error in its ways and tried to persuade the reader not to see any errors either while constantly pointing them out all the time. Maybe I just like his writing style, I don't know...
@fremenchips
6 жыл бұрын
People who accuse Star Ship Troopers of fascism always see it as "service to THE STATE" whereas in the book it's pretty clearly "SERVICE to the state". Remember when Rico said that if the only way a person could fulfill their service was by counting caterpillar hairs then that's what they would be assigned? It's because that person was willing to put in the time and effort to fulfill their service not their utility to the state that mattered. What Heinlein was talking about was that essentially government should be run by people who give enough of a shit to want to run it well and the evidence that you give a shit is through service. Also the people who ran the state in the book were people who made it to the top of both the army and navy and RETIRED. Sorta like a certain president in 1958.
@ANTSEMUT1
6 жыл бұрын
fremenchips yeah but the civil service (as a route to "Citizenship") bit of the book wasn't really given as much attention and glorification as serving in the military. After all Rico and his supporting characters are the mostly front and centre.
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
Do you honestly want to read a book about the mundanity and tedium of civil service?
@ANTSEMUT1
6 жыл бұрын
John Kek probably not but if Heinlein was a better writer it could have been interesting. It's not like writing about the tediousness of administration hasn't been done and done well before.
@jacoblevenson7934
6 жыл бұрын
People should also remember that Heinlein experience witht he state was in the military so thats what he had experience with.
@mahj
6 жыл бұрын
The problem is that a citizen still has to support a system they may not agree with for several years before they have a tiny chance of changing it.
@anlumo1
6 жыл бұрын
All of those contradictions sound like the typical ones libertarian people always ignore in their own philosophy. Ayn Rand's life is full of those, for example.
@1000nod
6 жыл бұрын
that the same for all philosophy's and idea's to a degree.
@StathMIA
6 жыл бұрын
As a libertarian myself (both philosophically and as a member of the political party), I would agree that a lot of my peers do have an unfortunate tendency towards a "rights for me but not for thee" mentality. I shan't succumb to the no true scotsman fallacy and claim that they are all false libertarians or wannabes, only point out that we are not all like that. A lot of us really do care about things like LGBT rights, safe access to abortion, and rooting out racial bias in the justice system. Those issues are every bit as important to me as economics are when considering political candidates and voting on state ballots. Oh, and you're absolutely right about Rand. She had some good ideas (and some bad ones) but she was a complete hypocrite who surrounded herself with sycophants and yes men so that she wouldn't have to deal with criticism. She was also a terrible writer and Atlas Shrugged is a painful read but that's beside the point.
@devifoxe
6 жыл бұрын
Liberal is more valid term libertinism is is word that neo capitalist hijack. And it use to be synonymous with the anarchism and in is some case is still is. The video is unintentional misleading they use the modern term in a historical context.
@merrittanimation7721
6 жыл бұрын
Speaking as a non-libertarian whose has read both Atlas Shrugged and the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, I see myself more likely to follow Heinlein's view of the topic if only because I didn't want all of the characters to die horribly and he remembered he was writing a novel and not a philosophical treatise and kept monologues to a minimum
@slowmoe1686
6 жыл бұрын
GreyWolfLeaderTW Um, Grey Wolf, the vast majority of impoverished people live in capitalist countries, if only because almost all the world is capitalist. On another note, as bad as Fascist states were, they were only around for a very short time with most of them going defunct after a single generation, so a direct comparison to capitalism, which has existed for at least 200 years depending on what definition you use, and has been utilized in all corners of the world,, is nonsensical.
@michealcollins7709
5 жыл бұрын
The only time a Recruit was executed in the book was when he held a little girl for ransom and then killed her
@peterfmodel
5 жыл бұрын
Good Point. In that case the recruit could be executed in the modern military today, so that criticism of the novel is wrong.
@ParasaurolophusEwan
4 жыл бұрын
For some reason i want to read the kid friendly version of Stranger in a strange land Heinlein originally wanted to make.
@ANTSEMUT1
6 жыл бұрын
While yes military service is given the most attention in the book, but the route to become a "Citizen" can also be reach by entering the Civil Service. So really it was about Technocratic government with a strong Military bent.
@lsamaknight
6 жыл бұрын
www.nitrosyncretic.com/pdfs/nature_of_fedsvc_1996.pdf No it's wasn't. The idea of non-military routes to voting rights is actively denigrated in the book. The idea of non-military routes to enfrachisement was only tacked on later in an essay included in a short story collection.
@hlynnkeith9334
6 жыл бұрын
Isamaknight You are dead wrong. There is a character who washed out of MI training, refused to separate, and became a cook in federal service to win his franchise. Johnny Rico meets him later, after he finished his first deployment. He is in the book. He was definitely not 'tacked on later in an essay included in a short story collection.' If you are that wrong about something that is obvious to all who read ST, I infer that you never read the whole book. You are talking out of your ass.
@krillissue
6 жыл бұрын
It sounds like china, to be honest
@kirgan1000
6 жыл бұрын
It obviously that the artist have not read the book Starship troopers......
@MrBKainX
6 жыл бұрын
I’m sure this comment section will be entirely respectful and reasonable.
@alexandercrawford4222
3 жыл бұрын
Criticizing an author from the 50's for not being in line with your personal, modern moral philosophy is insane. Heinlein was far ahead of his time when it comes to social, economic, gender, sexual, and racial equality.
@karry299
3 жыл бұрын
Not as ahead as Soviet authors were.
@richbarr5959
6 жыл бұрын
Young people were executed in "Starship Troopers"? I only recall one, who was a child murderer...how awful that they'd put such an individual to death. And the implication that the government in that novel (one in which the franchise is earned through military service OR OTHER SERVICE; you conveniently ignore that part) is somehow equivalent with Nazi Germany is asinine. And you ignore "Time Enough For Love" completely...what, you couldn't find enough to smear him with in it? I get it: you don't care for Heinlein's politics (after being a New Deal Democrat, that is, which he originally was), so you want to throw as much shit at him as possible. I think you can do that without me, for the rest of this series and I'll have to think about the channel as a whole.
@DemitriVladMaximov
6 жыл бұрын
While I will not give up on this series or the channel, I agree completely with the sentiment about the firing squad as that individual assaulted and killed a kid and the book does not shy away from duty when called. Also a number of societies today have forced military service before citizenship such as the nation of Israel where every citizen is required to serve at least two years unless they are Orthodox Jews or Palestinians. Also how many US leaders of both parties served in the military? Grant, Kennedy, etc all learned about leadership, and the consequences and responsibility for the power they were entrusted with. That lesson can't always be just recited from a book and takes learning in the real world and facing those consequences personally. If George Washington hadn't learned from his folly as a militia member that wound up starting the French and Indian War would he have been as great a commander during the Revolutionary War or set the model of humility and selfless service as the head of the Constitutional Convention or as the First President of the United States of America? Starship Troopers is about individuals taking upon the responsibility of citizenship and understanding what that entails up against the collectivism of the arachnoid hive mind that is a clear example of communism and thus no human can be part of such a system.
@Nipah.Auauau
6 жыл бұрын
Child murder and military deserter*
@yugytomm
6 жыл бұрын
He is executed for the murder, the desertion is not such a big deal because all soldiers are volunteers who are free to leave if they want.
@tobyyasutake9094
6 жыл бұрын
Completely agree, and I'm one of the biggest RAH fanboys out there. So what if EC made a single video I disagree with? Their content on the whole is interesting and thought provoking.
@dracothief
6 жыл бұрын
While I'm not leaving the channel it is worrying to have them cover a subject i know about and know they put there own biased on instead of covering fairly. What happens when they do this to someone or something i don't know about and instead of being able to recognise it i assume they are correct, I shouldn't have to research everything they say to know if its true or not.
@TornadoADV
6 жыл бұрын
What an amazing way to be incorrect about just about everything in Starship Troopers. Good to know you're still wearing your political leanings on your sleeve, EC.
@danielhall271
6 жыл бұрын
Fascist and Libertarian at the same time... It's almost like the folks at Extra Credits have no idea what Heinlein was about.
@sjenkins1057
6 жыл бұрын
In all the discussion of Heinlein, including his manifest flaws, you have not mentioned one of the key things: at his peak, he is one of the finest pure *writers* in modern English. His prose is amazingly readable, with an almost irresistible rhythm and voice, getting you past some of the rough patches in theme and content.
@Jian13
6 жыл бұрын
I Arthur See Clarke what you did there.
@KenjiShiratsuki
6 жыл бұрын
I really think this is biased. I don't agree or disagree with the work of Heinlein. I have never read any of it. I wanted this to be an overview of the work and how it influenced Science Fiction, but it seems to spend far too much time talking about the author's personal ethos and skims over the actual content and examples with broad terms. Who wrote this episode? This doesn't feel like something James would write. James is usually a lot more level-headed even on controversial topics or things that could be offensive to people. I'd actually be in favor of EC pulling these Heinlein episodes for the time being, at least until something more objective and in-depth can be prepared.
@jrs3739
6 жыл бұрын
This is in no way different than the vids about other authors. Also, how would you know whether this is biased or not if you've never read anything by Heinlein. I think it's a very accurate description. Sure it doesn't pull any punches, but why should it? Just because the fanboys rage? They were always gonna rage. An accurate description of Heinlein and his work is not possible without enraging the fanboys.
@KenjiShiratsuki
6 жыл бұрын
JR S : I'm not saying its biased because its inaccurate. I'm saying it doesn't do a good job of explaining to me what about his work was so reprehensible with quotes or summaries to support claims. It seems too broad to properly get the point across, and the point shouldn't be to point out that he was a this or a that but to inform people about his work in an objective manner. This clearly shines a negative light on him, but that should be OUR place to judge. This sounds like an opinion piece, not an educational one.
@purpleghost106
6 жыл бұрын
The book "The Free Lunch" by Spider Robinson is a kind of partial response to that, and it is an excellent book. Whimsical and serious in turns. I doubt Heinlein would have liked it, and that somehow pleases me more. heh
@brycevo
5 жыл бұрын
Come on you Apes, don't you want to learn about the man that wrote this book
@Jollyprez
6 жыл бұрын
You completely mischaracterized Farnham's Freehold and its "racist" elements. Heinlein was pointing out that any race, any time could be discriminated against. AND, there was no difference in the races to speak of. It was a novel about stopping race wars. Quite the opposite of your assessment. I also detected a fair amount of snarkiness in your assessment of Moon is a Harsh Mistress and the "freebie" computer. Jeez, how you pulled that up as demerit must've been hard. I agree that his later writing went nuts. I don't care for most of the Lazarus Long stuff, along with Friday - eegads. I figured he'd had a stroke or something at that point.
@TGNXAR
6 жыл бұрын
I concur with your statement on Farnham's Freehold and TMiaHM. As in FF, anyone can be racist. The book places a mirror on race relations of old and shows how wrong the actions of the slave masters are, regardless of skin color. In TMiaHM, the idea that any person or group of people are privileged and bad unless they start FROM SCRATCH without any input from another is laughable.
@merrittanimation7721
6 жыл бұрын
Anti-racism is the point of Farnham's Freehold but the issue is that it's so poorly handled to the pint that it comes across as racist. The way it is framed feels more like the future society is what happens when you let blacks take control and not an endemic problem to humanity as a whole. It's clear from the opinions of the characters that this is meant to be an anti-racist commentary but this is really reflected in the plot. Also the characters are pretty flat so that doesn't help
@noah2251
2 жыл бұрын
This video plays like an interpretation of an interpretation of a 5 minute video about Heinlein. You don't mention pivotal, yet less popular stories, like "for us, the living" or "the cat who walks through walls" or "revolt in 2100" which are journeys through various societies founded on differing social philosophies. I could say more, but overall the video doesn't do him or his work justice by nature of its short length and shallow understanding. Also "Female Heinlein characters are just there for men" Friday: "am I a joke to you?"
@robertwalpole360
6 жыл бұрын
*Holds back my lunch at **7:03*
@tinderbox4690
6 жыл бұрын
Walpole!
@lhfirex
6 жыл бұрын
Hey, we all know it was Walpole who ghost wrote those books for Heinlein.
@PackerBronco
5 жыл бұрын
Lots of mistakes in your presentation. For example, Heinlein had a lucrative contract to write juvenile fiction in the 50's but that is not what he writing exclusively. Here is a list of the non-juvenille fiction written in the 50's: Puppet Master (1951), Double Star (1956), Door into Summer (1957), Methuselah's Children (1958) - all written before Starship Troopers. That doesn't count short stories such as "All you Zombies" (1958) which involved very adult themes and situations. Your analysis of the Starship Troopers also has several flaws. For example, while the protagonist of the story is in the military, Heinlein makes it clear that the voting franchise is not limited to military veterans, but rather any veteran of government service. For example the service of a fireman, police office, nurse, EMT, etc. would also qualify. Moreover, while you are in the service, you are not allowed to vote, it's only when you leave the service you can vote. The point is that any voting franchise has restrictions. For example 16-year olds are denied the franchise even though many 16-year olds are wiser than adults. So the question is not whether you have restrictions on voting rights, but what restrictions will result in good government and are themselves, "moral". There is a very long discussion of this topic in the book (arguing both sides) which I'm not going to duplicate here, but your casual reference to "military dictatorships" is a disservice to the book and also to anyone watching this video. For a more complete and detailed rebuttal on senseless Heinlein criticism, I suggest people read Spider Robinson's essay: rah rah RAH! at: www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/articles/rahrahrah.html
@MyPisceanNature
6 жыл бұрын
Hypocrisy and inconsistency from someone who thinks they are a libertarian? I am shocked! SHOCKED, I tell you!
@harrisonlee9585
6 жыл бұрын
J.J. Kuchenmeister Ok, not that shocked.
@wrongway1100
6 жыл бұрын
J.J. Kuchenmeister I read the book. This guy is leaving out a lot.
@usagiakimbo3078
6 жыл бұрын
Dude, I'm at 3:29 & i can tell you either didn't read the book, or u Paul Verhoven-ed it. This is a sad an off base interpretation of a classic & staple work of si-fi. I bet u LOVED L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics like L. Ron Hubbard loved young boys..
@lorizoli
6 жыл бұрын
Hatchet job
@therealkillerb7643
6 жыл бұрын
I do not think you understand Heinlein nor the era in which he wrote; especially Starship Troopers. Read "Expanded Universe" where he goes into considerable detail about how an electorate SHOULD function; he even recommends forbidding men the right to vote, as one option. He also suggests a basic IQ test as well as other criteria. In other words, his suggestion is that there ought to be some criteria, to demonstrate some sort of social responsibility, before giving people the franchise. Why not deal with his actual arguments about the dangers of unlimited democracies who discover they can vote themselves unlimited bread and circuses? And in regards to "Farnham's Freehold..." How is that "racist?" A futuristic, highly advanced African culture rules the world and enslaves whites, who are shown to be willing slaves? He is showing the horrors of racism by turning the tables. Or are you offended because the Africans retain elements of their own native cultures, "unsullied" by Western morals? Go back and read some more; if you are going to critique someone, at least, understand what he actually wrote.
@mojoforthewin3069
6 жыл бұрын
I’d be super interested to see a one-off video about Haldeman/The Forever War, and how it contrasts with the more jingoistic elements of earlier military sci-fi. It undoubtedly has some problematic elements, but it’s probably one of the most important works in the genre.
@petronius5931
6 жыл бұрын
Hardly anone ever gets this right: In Starship Troopers military service is not the only way to get a vote. It's service of ANY sort, military or non-military. Youvolunteer to serve, and the state MUST accept your service, no matter what you are capable of, and you must accept the service offered once you have volunteered. You might be sent to do medical research, ou might be sent to build infrastructure in the wilderness, or if you are healthy, young and they need soldiers at that moment, well, you probably will get sent to the miliary. But it isn't "serve in the military or you can't vote"!
@zarifhasan4191
6 жыл бұрын
Umm why the hell was a scifi writer advising the president?
@AvailableUsernameTed
6 жыл бұрын
There's probably one now.
@jonhendrickson1382
6 жыл бұрын
A couple of reasons- he's a good communicator of complex scientific ideas to a non expert audience, and half the guys at NASA took up rocketry because they read "Rocketship Galieo" as a kid.
@wingracer1614
6 жыл бұрын
Read some of his stuff and find out.
@merrittanimation7721
6 жыл бұрын
Because the project was fairly outlandish for the tech of the period?
@jakarnilson
6 жыл бұрын
You mean like H.G. Wells being one of the backers of the League of Nations, the United Nations and laying the groundwork for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
@Bazookatone1
6 жыл бұрын
This is a great video as per usual, but I respectfully disagree with describing the government as conceived of in Starship Troopers as "military rule". In the novel, Rico explicitly states that serving members of the armed forces do NOT get to vote, the franchise is only awarded once they have completed their service, even the Lieutenant, who is in for the full 20 years, will not earn his vote until his service is up. So the government is composed of, and elected by, veterans, but not current soldiers. A small difference, but an important one. Also, I never saw the society Heinlein posited as a dictatorship, but as more of a limited democracy. Heinlein himself points out that the democracies of the 20th century disqualified some percentage of their citizens from voting by either age, criminal record or some other criteria. And everyone (except the mentally impaired) has the right to volunteer for service and earn a vote. Unlike real Fascist states, it seems that people can amass great wealth without having to be a member of "the party" (the Rico family are very wealthy but have deliberately kept out of politics for over 100 years) and that even civilians enjoy the full protection of the law vis a vis property and business as well as person. In fact, very much UNLIKE real fascist countries, members of the political elite suffer graver punishments if convicted of a crime, since they are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard. All that said, I don't think the society described in Starship Troopers is any less unattainable than the one described in Star Trek.
@killerwolfxx7
6 жыл бұрын
Edgy closeted 15 year old me loved Starship Troopers and would vehemently defend it, 26 comfortable with myself me while understands the problematic nature of Hienlein but appreciates being sparked into a long love affair of sci-fi/fantasy
@bryanmcclure2220
6 жыл бұрын
Lonewolfxx7 i also read Hienlein as a kid and while I still find much of his work problematic a have always appreciated it
@dataportdoll7918
6 жыл бұрын
I'm gonna be in the minority here, but...I didn't like SS Troopers not because of the politics, but because it was so poorly thought out *as a work of speculative fiction*. Like, the whole "othering" of the enemy. "Well those bug things are evil and we can't understand them", but we see in several instances where specific mention is made of the bugs being saved from destruction by allies. How does one get allies if they can't communicate? How does one build a military alliance and cooperate if one is a monolith of consumption? How does "mindless evil" get allies to fight and die in their wars? There are clearly diplomatic channels at work here, even if their communication isn't something known by Human science at the time. The assumption was made in the book that the ongoing war is a justified action. And while it's a bit anachronistic, if you try to read between the lines to ferret out a cause, like a more modern author would do, it really does look like Humanity is the assholes in this universe, because we stand alone in a galaxy awash with life. And that's pretty clearly not what Heinlein intended. So I have to demerit him for failing so badly in constructing this ever present conflict. And if he's so bad at the stuff he gets to make up on the fly, his credibility on the backstory of this planet Earth is in all the sharper focus, and weaker for it.
@franciscodetonne4797
6 жыл бұрын
So his career is... *I R O N I C* ?
@yonokhanman654
6 жыл бұрын
He could advice others but not himself it seems.
@bryanmcclure2220
6 жыл бұрын
Francisco DeTonne Dont get it
@sudevsen
6 жыл бұрын
Yono khanman the tragedy of Darth Heinlein.
@walterclements8905
4 жыл бұрын
Star ship tropper is a warhamer anime 😳😳😳😳
@HierophanticRose
4 жыл бұрын
None of my friends believe when I say Heinlein's work was the main inspiration behind Halo series.
@davidtheberge1231
3 жыл бұрын
I really need to start playing that game
@artelislt
3 жыл бұрын
@@davidtheberge1231 1,2 and 3 are best parts. 4 is good to me. And others - bruh. (This is my opinion btw)
@notcomputernerd52
2 жыл бұрын
Try reading Larry niven, Ringworld is the main inspiration for the setting while Heinlein provided the philosophy
@troyklein6379
2 жыл бұрын
@@artelislt *opinion detected on american soil lethal force engaged*
@skunkjulio
6 жыл бұрын
Being executed for kidnapping and murding a child is a good thing. Not sure while the essay glosses this point? It's fair to discuss the merits of a death penalty, but the only death sentance carried out was for that specific crime, which is heinous. Unrelated from the above, I always wonder why discussions on Starship Troopers seem to think military life is glorified. Rico seems to enjoy it, but if the reader steps back from Rico, they realize just how desolate that life is. Even at the end, Rico lives alone with no chance to be with the only girl he has ever cared for and his only companionship as his recently re-united father, who is now just as likely to die in a drop as any of the rest of them... This is glorification?
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