As a grappler player I agree that grapplers shouldn't be the best character in the game. But at the same time they shouldn't be the absolute worst, and its getting god damn old that grapplers get nerfed more than anyone else just because people whine.
@AMVaddictionist
5 жыл бұрын
I want a documentary video of goichi in melty blood. I hear a lot of stuff but my FGC age is too young to have witnessed it, and rumors are not cutting it.
@PokeHearts
5 жыл бұрын
I've always found fighting game balance super interesting for the casual vs hardcore philosophy, on top of it being a game of soft counters, and even sometimes hard counters. Where certain archetypes/playstyles get blown up by other archetypes/playstyles in most games. Like just thinking of balancing a fighting game sounds near impossible
@dforde125
5 жыл бұрын
A fighting game will never be balanced. Even if somehow you found the closest way to make every character "equal (but also different)", some characters will outshine others due to the nature/mechanics of the game. Such is life.
@lrdalucardart
4 жыл бұрын
It is near impossible, thats exactly why Fighting-Games are so fun. Look Tekken for example, it needed at least 11 generations of the same game to reach what Tekken 7 is today, a nearly very tightly "balanced game" but still has flaws here and there.
@MoldMonkey93
4 жыл бұрын
Virtua Fighter 5:Final Showdown. There's your answer.
@DD-fs7pg
4 жыл бұрын
Generally you'd want to balance towards the highest tier players. In a competitive game those are the players that people pay attention to and those players determine how tournaments are made and progress. A good player is what others should strive towards. If goichi is one of the few that can block a mixup then he's the one that players can learn from. I understand that balance is still important but being wishy washy about balancing principles is an issue. Fps games, among others, are similar in that way. Overwatch, for example, has this issue of trying to "satisfy everyone" by trying to balance "lower skilled" characters along with high risk, high reward characters instead of balancing around scaling difficulty.
@mainstream6326
5 жыл бұрын
Easy.. Nerf goichi
@Yukari_MAiG
5 жыл бұрын
But he has plot armor tho (or Ultra Instinct?) ......
@churchplacething1308
3 жыл бұрын
With what you said towards the end about Mixups, they shouldn't buff the mixup potential. It's meant to be possible to be blocked, just very very hard. If it was meant to be impossible to block the mixup, then they are probably rhe best character in the game because they move real quick
@GrayXephyr
5 жыл бұрын
I mean, if only one person out of hundreds/thousands/millions of players can block a mixup then... shit. I guess that’s just how it is. If you buff any mixup game the character has, they might just start to become overpowered, it could have repercussions in their difficulty, either too hard or too easy. If the mixup is too hard, then nobody can do it and Goichi is still number 1. If it’s too easy, then everybody does it and anybody not playing that character gets their shit mixed.
@Freakattaker
3 жыл бұрын
I think balancing around the top end of the player base is best. There will always be "noob stomper" characters and the meta being different at different levels of skill is normal and guaranteed regardless of what a dev does.
@zhaoyun255
5 жыл бұрын
I believe Broly in FighterZ is the Perfect Balance Top tier character (He's top 6 now given how rough he started with.) He carried the same high risk (of being fuzzied as a big character, more combo worked on him, didn't have an invincible DP, one of the bad 2H (though armor remedied that a little), have the same life bar as anybody else, his slide meter and meterless slide knockdown switch side, required a lot of lab time and battle experience to make his kits work) high reward (The BEST Zoner in the game (Yeah, I shit you not. Broly's fireballs+Eraser Blow control neutral so easy that you didn't even need Goku beam assist unless you put up a barrier.), his 50/50+Command grab+Corner Carry are NIGHTMARE to deal with once he got the first hit. The armor helps him remedy for his being fuzzied.) Broly is also the gatekeeper character to test how well you could think outside of the box because his conversions are so situation and required quick thinking unlike other easy to use top tiers. You need to build a team around him as well.
@hanzgolden
5 жыл бұрын
I think it's impossible for broly to be top tier in a game like DBFZ, the sole nature of DBFZ is something that take him away from the top tier aspect
@zhaoyun255
5 жыл бұрын
@@hanzgolden Actually, the pro now place him to be Top 6 now. Current top 5 was Kid Buu, Bardock, GT Goku, A.Gohan and T. Gohan. Broly is now top 6. This is due to his best neutral, being able to get off fuzzy despite being a big character and his mixup+command+huge normals helps a lot. His signature Fireballs>Eraser Blow scared the shit out of super dash.
@gimhanafernando1395
4 жыл бұрын
Thalles di El the way people play DBFZ has changed a lot since it began. Mixups especially off level 3 hard knockdown have been nerfed to hell, neutral and zoning are much more important than they used to be and snapback oki is really strong. Aside from excelling at all of these things, Broly got several substantial buffs that have made people realize how menacing the character can be if anyone with a brain actually plays to his strengths. dekillsage proved that when he beat Fenritti at CEO (Fenritti later won against dekillsage but the Broly play on display was still incredible).
@servebotfrank4082
3 жыл бұрын
@@hanzgolden This didn't age well.
@spreadlove8946
5 жыл бұрын
MOAR MIX🔥❤️
@DynoDunes
5 жыл бұрын
Zoners are, in my opinion, extremely difficult to balance because a top tier zoner will never have to worry about the distance being closed between them, either because they have fantastic ways of getting the opponent off of them (IJ2 Deadshot, Guile in any game where he's good), can outrun the opponent trying to catch up to them (MvC2 Storm), or their projectiles are just that good (Old Sagat). The result is that this will completely negate every other style. At the same time, if the Zoner cannot keep the opponent out in some capacity, they are fighting a close quarters battle that they are destined to lose, and become useless. It's as if devs have to implement some sort of abstracted concept of timing and reward (ie Zoner A should expect to keep Grappler A out for at least 5 seconds before he lands an SPD) to ensure that the two are balanced, and that's easier said then done when every character will be able to close the gap in radically different timings.
@gndo9145
5 жыл бұрын
agreed. You can hear the conversations now, "How many correct guesses/reads/advancements does Grappler A have to do to deserved to get in on Zoner A" and "Once Grappler A does get in, what's a reasonable amount of damage for him to do to Zoner A and what's reasonable for them to take while getting in".
@DynoDunes
5 жыл бұрын
@@gndo9145 Even worse than that is that the damage required is not as clear cut as "1 SPD is the same as 12 Hadokens on block" because damage is not the only resource involved. Meter build/usage, time, any other gauges involved, and positioning are all important considerations. For example, projectiles (with some exceptions like MvC1 Megaman's Buster) usually do far below average damage, but they excel in all of those other categories. The only positive in dev's favor is that it takes time for the entire player pool to figure this out and apply it consistently, instead of just dedicated mains. It's not an enviable position.
@egebamyasi2929
5 жыл бұрын
In my opinion, Zoners should be approchable by every character arcehtype however they shouldn't get Oki'd to death due to a lack of inherent defensive options like DPs etc. I believe that traditional Zoners should have a DP that sends the opponent on the other side of the screen on hit to keep the loop of "trying to get in" going instead of making it a one-sided slaughter
@zhaoyun255
5 жыл бұрын
Funny enough, the best Zoner in FighterZ was also the biggest character in the game. Yeah, I shit you not that Broly is actually Top 6 in FigherZ now.
@beganfish
5 жыл бұрын
@@DynoDunes Another problem with zoners is that the match starts at a distance where the zoners have the advantage.
@THECOOLKID93
5 жыл бұрын
What do you think about Cody? I feel like he is barebones without VT. I honestly would want him to get a 3 bar VT if his base kit gets buffed
@eclipse5393
5 жыл бұрын
Cody should be a 1 bar V-trigger that doesn't last as long
@eclipse5393
5 жыл бұрын
Sajam is one of the only people bringing nuance to the FGC. Almost everything else is hyperbole that becomes toxic
@headbreakable
5 жыл бұрын
that's why he's the Pro....
@axis8396
3 жыл бұрын
I'm on the side of everything in the game should be usable to at least some degree in terms of playstyles and then universal system mechanics can fill in the gaps like a grappler rolling through a projectile vs the zoner trying to bait the grappler to roll early then force them back to full screen with the punish. It shouldn't be Luthor/Zod levels of difficult to get in but it shouldn't be free either
@justjunk3803
4 жыл бұрын
I think most competitive games should be balanced more around higher level play. Stuff that's balanced well for top players usually trickles down better to worse players then vice versa.
@water-111
4 жыл бұрын
Trickle down patch-conomics
@mrevilducky
4 жыл бұрын
4 months late but I'm not sure how true this is. I wholely believe there's like a low ladder metagame; characters that feel broken and are really frustrating for lower level players that high level players don't even believe are good.
@garbageknights
3 жыл бұрын
I've always said competitive games should balance gameplay for the best and information for the worst. The game shouldn't balance gameplay for lower skilled players, it should try to bring lower skilled players up. That way they can make the best use of the game.
@noisyether9211
4 жыл бұрын
Can you do a video on Orchid.I fell off of ki once characters like kanra came.To me with Orchid there not much she can do.Kanra ,arganos ,eyedol ,eagle Seriously.I feel like some of the older characters got left.
@nottobay6768
4 жыл бұрын
Dhalsim is actually considered is often considered the best non Akuma character in st. He's not really a dedicated zoner though. But he dies super easy that makes his job hard. So he only starts being good at about intermediate level.
@whobee1754
4 жыл бұрын
Melty Blood is a fantastic example of how strong of a player Go1 is. He literally bent the games balance around himself with multiple characters
@quantumpotato
2 жыл бұрын
Do you have a link to melty blood developer discussion about GO1?
@RealDreamStation64
Жыл бұрын
I feel like DNF and DBFZ are better examples than Melty Blood is Granted, Kamone is a former Melty player in Japan himself lol
@DonWippo1
3 жыл бұрын
Good Video. When people talk about Game Balance they often forget, that a Game needs to be balanced for all the Players from beginners to pros. There is no Point in a perfectly balanced Game at high level, when one character completely dominates the Meta on all other levels. Of course in Fighting Games we have the luxury that everyone wants to ascend to the high level, so the devs don't need to cater to too many levels of play, however a minimum of Balance needs to be maintained at all levels to keep a game enjoyable and popular. Also I agree that difficult to play and high-risk, high reward Characters should be strong. Otherwise the invested time might seem wasted.
@garbageknights
3 жыл бұрын
I always say, Balance gameplay towards the top players and balance information towards the lowest. Usually, characters that are week or balanced at the top of the ladder but destroy the bottom of the ladder, only do so because of the lack of information. I believe it's better to try to bring the players up, instead of the characters down.
@aricvinyard
4 жыл бұрын
I’d say currently if you were to play a shoto picking ryu or ken would be a high risk
@yuurou7927
4 жыл бұрын
Hard characters should be rewarding enough or who's gonna play them? People are efficient most of the time, if there exist simple and strong options or characters no one will try hard stuff. RIP Susano'o from BBCF. I do agree grapplers and zoners shouldn't be the TOP top of a game, they're always frustrating to fight against and easy to turn people off. However if said zoner/grappler need to be very technical to achieve full potiential, then why not? Yuzuriha/Vatista from UNI and Rachel from BB come to mind. Intermediate players and lower skill players is over 70% of FGC population or maybe more. Balancing around top players definitely is better than balancing around most population, because the skill gap of "most population" is huge and inconsistant.
@JustuMaster451
5 жыл бұрын
Which character was he talking about that goichi won't get opened up by
@egebamyasi2929
5 жыл бұрын
My guess would be Akiha Vermillion. She's also a glasscannon which is why her air-game, mix, and oki is pretty good
@BrokenTekk
5 жыл бұрын
Eh it feels reductive to say that a character's difficulty of use should correlate directly to strength in the game. It's more important for a game to have a variety of archetypes represented in it's top tier than to reward difficulty of play and have more limited variety at its highest level
@HellecticMojo
4 жыл бұрын
And said archetypes should have different level of strength as said in the video. If difficult play isn't rewarded then that character just sucks.
@jrthehunter4309
4 жыл бұрын
I see where you're coming from, from the standpoint of spectatorship, but i would have to disagree from the standpoint of competition. If a character is difficult to play, then there has to be rewards/incentive for people to stay and learn that character. For example, in the NFL, deep passes tend to be the hardest to complete with the highest risk, but they also reap the biggest rewards. If teams could do less risky things like shallow passes or runs for the same reward as deep passes, then no teams would do deep passes. So if difficulty of play doesn't lead to rewards, people will drop those characters and Flock around the easy, low-risk, and high rewarding characters. So even though you may get a higher variety of archetypes, you would likely also get a lower variety of characters.
@water-111
4 жыл бұрын
BrokenTekk no disrespect, you may be new or haven’t thought about this enough. But this is sort of the popular newbie take on balance that tends to not really work and cause problems. Difficulty should always be considered because if you make a difficult character bad, there is no incentive to play the char. Also you can make a character really good, and have that character be balanced by the fact that they are hard, resulting in the character not being played consistently at max potential. This is a lot more nuance but I’m not gonna write an essay.
@oddluck4180
3 жыл бұрын
Well the thing is, simple characters have a natural advantage over complex characters. Seeing as someone playing a complex character is going to need to keep a lot more in mind, and deal with more complicated maneuvers. Meanwhile the simple character can focus a lot more on the match while doing simple combos and such. Because even the best of pros can become flustered from dealing with too much stuff.
@quekZo95
5 жыл бұрын
They need to buff kage man. Is is too weak and too hard to use. Atleast make him viable
@elghostino137
4 жыл бұрын
What's the website
@QuantemDeconstructor
4 жыл бұрын
So basically Jin should be strong while Lars should be weak
@decksteroussnail
5 жыл бұрын
I still like Mike Z's viewpoint that you can't fix a matchup by just giving a character more health or making a strong character lower health. Even KoF13 makes everyone's health the same.
@WutTheDeuceGaming
5 жыл бұрын
Abigail in SF5 is in a good place, but I think they did nerf his EX spd's range too much.
@Clobberkid545
5 жыл бұрын
WutTheDeuce why not say ex cg spd only geif has
@Angel7black
5 жыл бұрын
hell no, abigail is degenerate as fuck, he has no business being that strong strong
@jealousyofthesun
5 жыл бұрын
>chip and akuma >high risk haHaa
@LGR_FGC
5 жыл бұрын
if go1 can block it, everyone can block it, sounds good to me so I wouldnt change it.
@ukyorulz
5 жыл бұрын
This is dead easy. You always balance for the *most* players, not the best ones. The world's top players will adapt and adjust as necessary. Balancing your FG based on the top players of the world is like shaping your economy around the richest billionaires.
@whobee1754
4 жыл бұрын
8 months late but this can lead to horrid balance issues like with games such as Blade Arcus where casually the games mostly balanced but when you start getting into the more serious side of that game there are literally only 3 viable characters and everybody else is trash tier. If a game is designed for casual fighting game players this isn't a problem but when there's big tournaments and money on the line this becomes a huge problem. While only balancing for top players isn't a good alternative either, balancing for both mid and high level play together will usually get the best results
@ukyorulz
4 жыл бұрын
@@whobee1754 MVC2 has 56 characters, only 4 of which are competitively viable, with 2 more characters that are only used as assists. This game is one of the best competitive titles ever.
@_tauschung
4 жыл бұрын
@@ukyorulz and if we follow your advice, we can make sure nothing ever takes it's place!
@mmmk6322
5 жыл бұрын
*laughs in Harada* Risky in tekken is just another word for skill.
@Atilolzz
5 жыл бұрын
Spamming Matterhorn isn't skill
@mmmk6322
5 жыл бұрын
@@Atilolzz yes. Not blocking and punishing mettahorn is also not a skill. Scrub
@mmmk6322
5 жыл бұрын
@@Atilolzz oh... I just realized you wanted to say risky play is spamming unsafe moves... You really are a scrub lul. Try to play against someone within your skill gab and get better that way.
@beganfish
5 жыл бұрын
@@mmmk6322 Tekken has top tiers and bottom tiers just like every other game.
@vigilantstranger6130
4 жыл бұрын
@@beganfish thats true but I feel like in like casual play that doesnt matter as much theres very little bs, but in competitive some characters just look broken. (Im looking at you Geese, d+1 shouldnt lead to a 60% combo in tekken its not right, its even worse when you realise this character has been nerfed 3 times since release and is still top 5)
@PurpleFreezerPage
2 жыл бұрын
Is it naive to believe we should aim to make EVERY character.. not frustrating to fight against?
@younghou
5 жыл бұрын
The idea of arquetype should be/not be strong is complete nonsense. Force everyone to play "fast/glass cannon character" which will end in 1 opening en neutral into mix up, dead over and over.
@water-111
4 жыл бұрын
This isn’t the central point at all.
@Snoozytube
3 жыл бұрын
What's the website?
@StratEdition
5 жыл бұрын
I don't see why Dhalsim being the best character is a bad thing, as you mentioned. He is not particularly easy to play, and you basically play fly-swatter until they get in your ass.
@SupermanSajam
5 жыл бұрын
Zoners as a style are often more frustrating to fight for a majority of players as talked about in the video. If they dominate, much like grapplers, it becomes super frustrating because they generally are supposed to have archetypes that give them issues they need to overcome.
@StratEdition
5 жыл бұрын
@@SupermanSajam Right, you were again referring to the frustation side of things, as you did for the grapplers. Fair enough. In ST he's on of the best characters in the game, and you don't see too many of them. I guess it's his own thing since it's a zoning-heavy game in general.
@dreadedsage8630
5 жыл бұрын
What website is that
@dreadedsage8630
5 жыл бұрын
Watching on a small phone at 720p can't see url lol
@XX-ep5xt
5 жыл бұрын
Kiinfo.net
@dreadedsage8630
5 жыл бұрын
@@XX-ep5xt is it down? Not showing uo for me, thx tho
@millarhol120594
5 жыл бұрын
ki.infil.net/
@kaanozcan8460
5 жыл бұрын
@@dreadedsage8630 Down for me too. I guess it wasn't built for the traffic it got .lol
@zachrider5207
5 жыл бұрын
I think Melee Fox is a really good example of a well balanced best character. He has a lot of obvious strengths that makes him a really good character, but those are offset by the fact that he gets blown up by pretty much every viable character and the execution barrier in order to play him at a high level is really high. In contrast, Puff is an example of a poorly balanced top tier, she warps the game to a point where its more about playing Puff than playing Melee and her weaknesses require you to take risks in order to exploit.
@DontH8MeCauseUAintMe
5 жыл бұрын
agreed on this one. Melee is such an interesting fighting game as well because of how free form it is and how traditional combos and memorizing buttons is replaced with movement and tech skill.
@mohamedabdul9896
5 жыл бұрын
@@DontH8MeCauseUAintMe >melee >fighting game Ahahahahah
@keystone5750
5 жыл бұрын
Da Libbro ok but seriously though, why do so many people not see smash as a fighting game? The main gameplay is centred around the fighting, which is probably the biggest criteria. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s not a fighting game at it’s core.
@DontH8MeCauseUAintMe
5 жыл бұрын
@@keystone5750 Almost certain this human is an attention seeker. hes just being a clown.
@Kibbitz
5 жыл бұрын
@@keystone5750 We all have different criteria as to what counts as a fighting game and some of is don't feel like Smash is one based on it. That's pretty much all that is. The core would be what you need to call a fighting game a fighting game, and as this is defined by people and not a scientific or industrial standard, it's only normal it'll vary.
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