quick addition to the very interesting things said: the Spartan spear, as well as the Macedonian (sarisa) spear, had point-shaped counterweights at the rear end (called savrotiras), which weighted 3 times the front-end point. This way the spear could be grabbed from further to the rear (increasing reach), since the center of mass was moved backwards. I guess it was also easier to manipulate the spear, as it is with a sword with a counterweight at the pommel. Savrotiras could be pushed into the ground when the phalanx had to withstand a charge (eg cavalry) and finally, it could be used as a backup point, should the "business end" was broken off. Persian cavalry commander, Masistius was killed when a Greek soldier stabed him in the eye with the savrotiras of his spear
@DeanNatheos-eq3hl
8 күн бұрын
Thanks
@theMosen
9 жыл бұрын
Here's a third reason: It kinda looks more threatening and painters would like that.
@Spartiatai300
9 жыл бұрын
moismyname When holding overarm the spearhead is at head/throat level. Easier to kill with attack to that area.
@theMosen
9 жыл бұрын
Spartiatai300 I don't have a horse in this race, I'm just pointing out the obvious that everyone else seems to be ignoring: painters often value aesthetics over accuracy.
@Spartiatai300
9 жыл бұрын
moismyname Weird then that Hollywood seems to be going to the one with the worse aesthetics.
@joshrodriguez3969
8 жыл бұрын
+moismyname Maybe it was also easier to paint then underarm, so that it wouldn't overlap the body of the painted warrior
@YourXavier
8 жыл бұрын
+Spartiatai300 I'm not sure it's fair to compare the aesthetics of movies vs. paintings.
@KYREAPER
8 жыл бұрын
The problem with most people, even some historians, is that they dont remember this one simple fact in history - and this statement proves that spear phalanxes were fought in the OVERHAND position(even though for years i believed underhand would be best). -Macedon was known for creating their OWN version of the phalanx, called the Macedonian Phalanx(or pike phalanx). While everyone else used spears, Macedon switched to using an 18ft long Sarissa pike, to give them an edge over the other Greek hoplites and other phalanx using armies. -The IMPORTANT change with the Macedonian Phalanx was that the writings explain how they SWITCHED to an UNDERHAND grip(in order to use the pikes) for the Macedonian Phalanx... It would be impossible to overhand a heavy 18ft pike, which is why they made the switch. This suggests that it was previously an overhand grip(which would make the most sense in a close formation to allow for compacting with no disrupting of the individual behind). -Historically, this was a key innovation within the use of phalanxes, and Macedon decided to have a longer spear(which became a pike) and used an underhand grip because they found it to be more ergonomic when holding a longer spear without tension to the shoulder. -THERES ALSO some writing explaining that Macedon TRIED using an underhand grip with the SPEAR phalanx, where the men held their spears underhanded, and BELOW the bottom curve of the Aspis shield, and attacked the legs and feet of their opponents, killing them as they fell and clogged up their own phalanx. This was met with mix results, but was actually comfortable within the phalanx, but as its stated, was met with mixed results. Additionally, according to a descendant of the Spartans, the way they fought in the phalanx(using an overhand grip) was not to stab up and over and downward at the enemies head... but instead they rested the distal end of the shaft in the crevice of the overlapping shields(each shield protected half of the body of the man to the left) still held in the overhand grip and was used to precisely lunge/stab forward at a straight or lateral angle into the other phalanx. -Through doing this straight lunge motion, the protruding spikes at the proximal end of the spear head(or simply, the protruding angle) was used to grip the edge of the enemies Aspis and upon the pulling motion, opened up the opponents shield allowing for a visual angle to lunge again at the unprotected neck or soft parts of the Lino-thorax armor. -In addition to using the straight lunging motion, the men behind them were arranged in completely straight rows so that the tail of the spear did not disrupt anyone behind them. The men behind the front two rows would have their spears held diagonally, pointing forwards and upwards, and when they moved forward after the man in front dropped, they would simply slide their spear back into the crevice of their own and neighbor's shield. So in short, they were used overhand, but not to strike downward, but to strike straight after resting the shaft within the crevice of their own shield, and the man's to their right. This allowed them to maintain endurance of the shoulder.
@MrBandholm
8 жыл бұрын
I don't think your evidens is particular good... The change for the Macedonian Phalanx was as you said the pike, giving better reach, this however does not really say anything regarding the use of spear, because either with overhand or underhand the pike will stile outreach the spear. Your point on letting the spear rest between shields is interesting, and could perhaps work, however it is not hard to imagine that the same could be done with a underhand grip, or that the spear was under the connection between shields... Regarding your point on the Armour... Would it not make the most sense to armour the areas where you are more worried that you could get hit? I am not saying that you are wrong, but certain armours/or texts from the time, shows extra metal bits put onto the armour around the stomachs... If we imagine that you but on extra protection around the area where you are most likely hit, then that has to show something. Regarding ancient Greece I don't really believe that know enough to say with certainty how the individual soldier, or unit really fought... In a brief period of time, they may well have fought as you describe... but going 50 or so years in either direction, and it would be completely different. We do know that cavalry was part of certain city-stats armies... We also know that light infantry became more and more important... So the way of fighting changed steadily. I am not convinced that Matt is right on his point regarding tapestry, vases and pictures as good evidens either... Mostly because those objects did not serve the purpose of showing how the common soldier fought, it might do, but most often those objects was trying to sell a story/propaganda, and the overhand grip looks more threatening than the underhand grip, and by that be more popular to picture.
@KYREAPER
8 жыл бұрын
But you cant overhand that long of a pike, you would need rotatory cuff surgery every week. The only way to safely hold a pike for prolonged engagements would be underhand. So the only thing they even COULD have been talking about was using SPEARS overhand.
@JaM-R2TR4
7 жыл бұрын
Actually, in Renaissance and later during pike and shot age, they were using pikes from overarm position over the shoulder.. so i would expect if Hoplites used it overarm, Macedonians would be looking for similar style and would come with the same tactics as in Renaissance.. instead, they kept it down underarm...
@AleksandrKramarenko
7 жыл бұрын
@Jaroslav Jakubov I looked into it, but all renaissance art and modern reenactments never put the pike higher than shoulder height. The hand positions are almost always a combination of *both* over- and underhand. I'm sure you could temporarily raise the pike over your shoulder, like you say, but I suspect that would tire out your arms rather quickly and thus make you combat ineffective. So, I doubt that was standard practice. It probably was more of a situational thing you could do. It is quite obvious that you can use both over- and underhand with spears, but what do you use when you perform a disciplined shield wall like the ancient southern European armies did, like the Greeks and Early Romans? Tactically speaking, underhand cannot be your default grip that you use in most situations because as soon as the enemy rushes your shield, you will need to take some time switching grip from underhand to overhand before you can stab over your own shield to hit the enemy who's right in your face, and you need to do this while you are being pushed and possibly stabbed yourself if you aren't quick enough. You can see this in a video on this channel where they have spears with shields fighting each other. It seems like underhand is not viable for very close range fighting. Underhand seems good for when you have the space to move around and keep the enemy at a distance, but it is weak against someone who rushes and manages to get really close, especially when you don't have a lot of space to move, like in a formation. Also, what about fatigue? Assume that you do battle for a few hours in the shield wall. What actions will you take to avoid getting tired too quickly? Resting the spears on the shield wall seems kind of obvious. But how would you hold the spear? Overhand or underhand? It seems to me that overhand seems less tiring. Also, if you rest your spear on the shield wall, then you can get exactly the same range using overhand as you can with underhand.
@MrBandholm
7 жыл бұрын
Sascha Kramarenko Regarding the relaxing part of resting the spear on the shield... This makes no sense what so ever! I am sorry, but if you are part of the front line, and fighting, you have no time resting the spear on the shield... If the lines have broken apart or haven't meet yet, there are ample time to let the spear rest on the ground, by standing with it... What we most likely don't know about, is a system like the Romans, where the ranks change position, so the men can be given a bit of rest, before going at it again.
@Segalmed
10 жыл бұрын
An interesting historical aspect with pikes is that the Swiss grabbed their pikes at about the middle position near the balance point while the Landsknechte (their heirs in a way) grabbed them farther to the back end. The Swiss thus had a bit more of control over their long pointed sticks but lacked range which became a disadvantage.
@giftzwerg7345
Жыл бұрын
source? interessting read something simular, to more about that you shouldnt fight the lands knecht like the lands kecht, but like the switz, and get in close as you wount beat them at thier own game
@Segalmed
Жыл бұрын
@@giftzwerg7345 Ortenburg, Georg: Waffe und Waffengebrauch im Zeitalter der Landsknechte. (Reihe Heerwesen der Neuzeit Bd. 1) Verlag Bernard & Graefe
@smallestbear5281
8 жыл бұрын
One good reason to use a spear overarm in a duel is that the back end becomes a weapon. A big disadvantage of spear and shield vs say sword and shield is that the spear can very easily be moved, and I usually find that if I fight underarm, my spear gets pushed and held to the side by my opponent's shield, and I can't really do anything at that point but drop it and draw a back up weapon. With overarm, if my opponent pushes my spear downwards or sideways I can then use that motion against them and spin my spear around, hitting them with the back end on the head or shoulders. Sorry if this is kind of hard to follow, trust me, it works brilliantly.
@dichter331
4 жыл бұрын
But this video is about using a Spear in warfare, not in a duel.
@irfannurhadisatria2540
3 жыл бұрын
@Hoshea Ashok Kumar it is. Spear and shield is the main choice of weapon for infantry formations since the early days of Sumer to around ~1200-1350s when polearms were needed to pierce plate armours. However... In skirmishes and duels, nobles and other richer off warriors prefer sword and shield. Probably due to the skill needed and ability to fight a couple of enemies at once.
@Hell_O7
3 жыл бұрын
@Hoshea Ashok Kumar I think I've seen many where the guy with spears win, I think it was by Lindybeige
@Hell_O7
3 жыл бұрын
@Hoshea Ashok Kumar I've rewatched the videos now. Spear-shield vs sword shield in one on one, yes. Other than that, they seem to win a lot. For duel, the spear is two-handed/no shield.
@Hell_O7
3 жыл бұрын
@Hoshea Ashok Kumar They didn't even fought against cavalry at all there, what are you on about? in Lindybeige's video, the people that use spear with both hands instead with shield win against people that use swords (any type and combination) most of the time in a one on one fight. Video: kzitem.info/news/bejne/1oKC3Gx7a6KIl6A
@rfernandz2001
8 жыл бұрын
Could it be that a formation of, say, hoplites would use both methods depending on how close they were to the enemy? At 8 ft. range they jab at each-other underarm, then an order goes out and the shieldwall condenses and they go overarm for close range.
@scholagladiatoria
8 жыл бұрын
+Rafael Fernandez Yes, absolutely possible.
@lastdingo
8 жыл бұрын
+Rafael Fernandez The switch is extremely demanding for men in fear of danger and getting pushed. Close order tactics need to be kept simple to work. I suppose the overarm stance was used until the arm was too tired or the spear spent. The underarm stance was probably not practical in close order tactics at all, but in more disorderly situations it might be the 2nd choice. Artists would naturally prefer to show this stance rather than the 'tired man' stance.
@sashafreeman174
8 жыл бұрын
+Jürgen Sven Fuchs Usually, the underarm was the first stance hoplites, or any other army/unit, took. The overarm was unusable in long range engagements, at least when talking about roman/greeks. Also, it wasn't common for troops of spears to close in with one another, let alone face each other. They usually held back, jabbed with their spears, then closed the gap when they felt they would be victorious. Another thing to consider is the difficulty of ordering troops on a battle field. Today we have radios, but back then all they had were their voices. And with a field full of screaming men, it can be hard to hear orders.
@KheptlaxaXonu
7 жыл бұрын
Taylor Lang Not really. If you define underarm as thumb forward and overarm as pinky forward, you can still raise the spear above the shield and thrust with it. And if you have a less dense formation, which I think would be easier to maneuver in, with the front line more spread, about two feet or so between the soldiers, you can thrust underneath the shield wall
@comradedangerfield
5 жыл бұрын
hoplite warfare was not about having less dense formations. they were packed in tight shoulder to shoulder 8 ranks deep, and it was quite literally a massive deadly shoving match. the front 3 ranks would do the fighting and dying while the rest would be pushing on the backs of those in front. they called it the othismos, or the push. there are plenty of firsthand accounts where opposing phalanxes were literally pressed up shield to shield as each side tried to break through the other formation and cause a rout to begin. theres really no room for underarm thrusting in such a situation outside of perhaps the initial charge. i recommend reading the western way of war by victor davis hanson for more detail on the topic
@benoitbourque344
8 жыл бұрын
I just discovered your videos and I find them fascinating. You convinced me that rapiers are fierce and awesome :)
@TheJJKG
10 жыл бұрын
I discovered this channel a while ago, and it's bloody great, one of the most interesting places on the internet. Keep up the good work!
@Ryangerbehy
9 жыл бұрын
Thank you, food for thought. Always like to have my preconceptions challenged.
@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838
3 жыл бұрын
Exactly. Me too
@secutorprimus
6 жыл бұрын
I've never thought about it this way. You, sir, are a genius.
@gurkfisk89
10 жыл бұрын
The overhand grip with the back rised high may work nice in a formation. But it is a really shitty way to hold the spear if you want to test the stance indoors, thanks for the new mark on my ceiling. =)
@scholagladiatoria
10 жыл бұрын
You don't even want to see my ceiling...
@ezragraham8992
9 жыл бұрын
scholagladiatoria Yes we do!
@kvarnerinfoTV
6 жыл бұрын
kzitem.info/news/bejne/rJqesJyejIepgqg
@JanPospisilArt
10 жыл бұрын
A thing I noticed a while back (while trying this out, because I wasn't satisfied by Lloyd's spear "dogma") - while held up high (!), the overhand grip is much more convenient for attacking to the right side, while the underhand feels more comfortable on the left side. This stems from the biomechanics of the human arm, obviously. Considering a spearman using a shield would likely and often be fighting a line of other spearmen with shields, attacking left means mostly hitting a shield. Attacking right aims at the "unprotected" right side of your opponent's buddy. Anyway, as I IIRC commented on Lloyd's video - I don't why we shouldn't use both. Line or shieldwall battles surely weren't always perfectly measured by spear distance without any contact, sometimes you pushed in and got close. Then, or if you just wanted to change it up a bit, the overhand comes in handy.
@ZiePe
10 жыл бұрын
Great video! I also consider the main difference between the two grips is 1on1 vs battlefield situation
@jeremyknop5378
5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this. For the longest time I thought I just had weak wrists and I actually sprained my wrist because I was trying to hold the spear too far back while in the overhand podition. I didn't even think to choke up on it because of the drastic loss of range. When my wrist gets better I'll give it a try. Maybe you could do some demonstrations on how to best utilise overhand and maybe a short sparring demo?
@WindHaze10
10 жыл бұрын
I think overarm technique also has some intimidation factor in it. Like animals make themselves bigger to look more intimidating and strong, perhaps it's the same with humans. Scaring the opponent is also widespread tactic used by African tribes.
@jello788
6 жыл бұрын
WindHaze10 iremember that Asian guy from norbit did that to Terry crews
@Skiamakhos
4 жыл бұрын
I once saw a documentary about Maasai hunting lions, and they have a shield & spear, but they don't do shieldwalls & they don't throw the spear either - they say if you throw the spear & miss with a lion, you're dead, so they *kind of* do like an overarm throw, but catch the end before it leaves their hand, so that they have the full length of the spear as reach in the thrust, but they then *yoink* it back into a ready position super-quick. I think as far as overarm use in a shieldwall goes, you'd just have to build the muscle & the endurance to cope, much like an archer built the specific muscles he needed for his weapon.
@Hell_O7
3 жыл бұрын
That's interesting. I wonder how well that'll go against other humans.
@ariochiv
7 жыл бұрын
Excellent points.
@kathyvercamer5047
7 жыл бұрын
underarm spear position can be very versatile too in one on one combat or wide spaces, as you are able to lunge and swipe around with it, using the weapon as a one-handed glaive or basically a short sword on a stick. Especially great for holding one or multiple opponents at bay or intimidating them
@myfirstnamemylastname1395
7 жыл бұрын
Also, don't forget that this is art. They might have done it because it looked good. They didn't always pretend to be realistic. But I agree with all your other points. Thanks again for another interesting video!
@jarrodong4430
8 жыл бұрын
lindybiege and you have different opinions its interesting
@mbartelsm
8 жыл бұрын
different conclusions but similar opinions. IIRC Lindy doesn't go in depth regarding the use of a spear in a formation, but th agree that overarm has shorter reach and that underarm is potentially better for dueling.
@ragor79
8 жыл бұрын
Interesting how many people draw varying conclusions. My approach: Both positions can be switched back and forth and it depends on the situation (and maybe techique) which one is used. Underarm usage: While in formation and in general for defense. Hitting the guy behind is not as much as an issue since the spear end is next to your elbow due to the different hold you have on it. In duels when the spear is the main/only weapon. Advancing formation. (but not in a charge) Overarm: Out of formation, requires much more leg movement since the parrying ability is lacking. (as Lindybeige pointed out as well regarding parrying with an overarm grip sucks) -> Good choice in a chaotic brawl and for skirmishing units. And obviously when charging/attacking, since the formation is anyway pretty loose and the spear most likely will be used as a missile weapon while sprinting. +scholagladiatoria +Miguel Bartelsman +Lindybeige
@MisterKisk
10 жыл бұрын
I'm glad you made a video on this topic. There's also been some tests by some respected historians showing that the overarm spear thrust ends up generating considerably more powerful strikes as opposed to the underarm thrust. Thrusts that could effectively defeat the armour of the day.
@ContradictoryNature
10 жыл бұрын
Can you direct me to one of those tests? I can't speak much to it, but in my limited experience, a horizontal thrust with the hand kept at about hip height was more powerful. The overhand thrust may be more powerful but I find it's harder to execute effectively with a weapon as long as a spear. Not very hard, mind, just harder.
@MisterKisk
10 жыл бұрын
Try this: "An Evaluation of The Effectiveness of Three Methods of Spear Grip Used in Antiquity" Journal of Battlefield Technology, Vol 4, No 2, November 2011, by Peter Connolly and David Sim. They found that high underarm was 3 times more powerful than low underarm, but that overhand was 5 times more powerful than high underarm and 8 times more powerful than low underarm. I'd also recommend Paul Bardunias' articles in Ancient Warfare magazine, and also looking up his blog called "Hollow Lakedaimon". There is also: Gabriel and Metz "From Sumner to Rome, the Military Capabilities of Ancient Armies" 1991, p.85 and Schwartz "Reinstating the Hoplite; Arms, Armor, and Phalanx Fighting in the Archaic and Classical Greece", 2009, p. 80.
@ContradictoryNature
10 жыл бұрын
Excellent stuff, thanks very much.
@MisterKisk
10 жыл бұрын
No problem mate.
@demomanchaos
10 жыл бұрын
Kisk79 I really have a very had time believing those figures aren't made up. I've done more than just a little spear and shield fiddling, and I don't get those numbers. The power for any strike in any martial art comes primarily from the hips and not the arms. That said, at the extent of reach overarm feels incredibly weak compared to underarm. This also is noticeable when your target is the lower body and not the chest or face. The issue is that at the extent of range, you don't have a solid grip on the spear because you have to all but throw it to get max reach (which is still at least a foot shorter than gripping it underarm at the same position, and underarm does not suffer from pathetically weak strikes at the limit of range). Under the right circumstances could overarm generate more power, possibly. Those circumstances would include the target being at a specific height, angle, and within limit of range. Could it be massively more than a properly thrown underarm spear thrust, almost certainly not.
@patrickmathews2898
9 жыл бұрын
I believe that the overarm technique is more powerful as you can apply the torque of the twist of your upper body to the thrust. Many people assume that the thrust is just using arm strength, however a proper thrust uses your core muscles, your back, your shoulders and your arms as you twist and whip your body into the thrust.
@davidkrowa4153
9 жыл бұрын
Patrick Mathews but how much torque and upperbody can you use when locked in a phalanx?
@patrickmathews2898
9 жыл бұрын
You're 'locked' in place only so far as you partially cover your comrade to the left with your Aspis, I think that the right side of the body would have sufficient latitude within those bounds for the quick twist and snap. Again since it's over hand, and thus over shield, you don't expose yourself as much as underhand which would require pulling your shield sightly left to rotate your spear around. Of course this is only conjecture.
@SkreltNL
2 жыл бұрын
Old videos of you are way better. Less rambling, strait to the point. Real shame it turned out as it did, this stuff is really amazing.
@scottfreeman1997
10 жыл бұрын
Great video. Very informative.
@Dragonmistress83
9 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much for this information as I am writing a fan fic where my charecter trains with mainly spear and shield in a viking fight troupe (story set in modern day).
@patricksnyder8596
4 жыл бұрын
with a long shaft, an underhand grip prevents movement of the spear to the off-hand or shield side of the body. Whereas one can bring the spear to the opposite side, and strike fairly easily with the overhand grip
@towerycs
10 жыл бұрын
Interesting thoughts. My first thought when watching was that with this method of spear and shield use, the progression from the Greek hoplites, with the spear as a primary weapon and a sword as backup, to the Roman Legions, with a throwing spear to use before hand and a sword as their main weapon, is very clear.
@Forge_n_Brush
9 жыл бұрын
Excellent argument for the over-head position. Makes perfect sense. The tight close quarters fighting of the age would have made under-arm all but completely useless. Thanks for this video. Kurtus
@googelplussucksys5889
8 жыл бұрын
Kurtus Brown Except for defence, manueverability, range, stability, etcetera...
@TemenosL
6 жыл бұрын
Actually, overarm trumps underarm with defense, maneuverability, and range is not effected if you know how to slide a spear. You do get better bracing from the underarm position, that's just about all you get.
@tatayoyo337
10 жыл бұрын
In formation the underarm grip is used with elbow at the bottom of the spear and mass sparing with other spear formation.
@edi9892
10 жыл бұрын
Nice addition to Lindy's video. I wonder if it might also be dependent on whether you need to make particularly strong thrusts.
@d53njac
8 жыл бұрын
Every time you hit the ceiling, I cracked up.
@thetriumphofthethrill2457
3 жыл бұрын
Compelling as always, good reasoning.
@jakea1119
8 жыл бұрын
The Dory( Ancient Greek spear) had a counter weight which was pointed so it could be used as a secondary weapon if your spear breaks also it makes it so you can hold the spear further back while your in formation.
@spineyrequiem
10 жыл бұрын
Interesting thoughts, though personally I still think the underarm grip must have been used a fair bit. While it's true that holding it midway along the shaft underarm could hit your friends in the face, if you hold it right at the end (as you briefly demonstrated), not only do you not hit people in the face but you get a massive great reach, as you described. I noticed, after a cursory glance at some greek vases, that most of them seem to show only the front rank, which leads to my theory. The front ranks probably held their spears overarm, due to being fairly close to the enemy and thus wanting to be able to stab the guy in front of them. The guys behind them, however, held their spears underarm, though still stabbing over the shield and the shoulder of the guys in front, in order to maximise the amount of pointy in any given bit of front. After about three ranks of this, people hold their spears upwards, both to minimise accidental hitting and to provide some protection against missiles (I remember hearing this as a reason for holding pikes up, though I'll admit I don't know how it works. Or indeed if it does). The vase painters, however, only show the front ranks, because otherwise you'd have to turn the pots around to see where people's spears are coming from and the back ranks of each unit would touch. They do still show the spears pointing upwards though, as that's one of the defining characteristics of hoplite formations, and they're nice and close-packed because that way you can fit more bodies in without it looking too silly. With the African tribes who use overarm (particularly the Zulu), I know that they originally used javelins as their primary weapon, so it might come from that. There's also the fact that the Zulu look to me like they fought in a much less organised formation than hoplites (in order to maximise their speed), and thus complicated multi-rank systems won't really work, but you still don't want to hit anyone in the face. Then again, I might be wrong about all of this. The only way to really check is to get two formations of hoplites, one going overarm and one underarm and see who wins, and apparently there's laws about that sort of thing now.
@nutyyyy
Жыл бұрын
The thing is though that's not what the visual sources show most of the time. That has to be taken into account.
@crazyknife1443
9 жыл бұрын
Great vid! Completely agree!! Spears where also used to take away shields by throwing right at the shield and pulling their sword to charge they forced their Opponent to drop their shield because if the stopped right then to break it off of pull it out they would be dead.
@mattyoungblood5720
Жыл бұрын
In a phalanx formation, it makes it much easier to block both over the top and lower strikes. I've seen it in action in Greek phalanx recreations.
@chapdod
8 жыл бұрын
I would add to Matt's reasons: Strength. Why are baseballs thrown overhand? Why were daggers and even swords sometimes used with the icepick grip? Strength of the blow. In recreation and sparing situations, you win by _poking_ your opponent. In a battle situation, you win (survive) by murdering or at least disabling your opponent. That means landing a blow that will penetrate muscle and bone. Think sternum or skull bone. Not to mention armor, mail, etc. I am unimpressed with arguments that attempt to explain away the best evidence we have as "artistic license." Oh, it just looks better on a vase. Nonsense.
@chapdod
8 жыл бұрын
chapdod and speaking of, I'm curious if anyone has done penetration tests with javelin grip versus underhand grip.
@KheptlaxaXonu
7 жыл бұрын
chapdod With the usage of underarm vs overarm grip on a spear, it's the same as the icepick vs traditional grip on a sword. With the icepick grip you get one really hard strike whereas with the traditional grip the strike may be less powerful but it's much more wieldy to use. Not saying it's the exact same, but it's similar. It also depends on the spear you use, whether it's a dory, a sarissa, or an assegai.
@EdgewiseSJ
5 жыл бұрын
This is late, but yes, the obvious advantage of the overhand grip imo is power. Hammers, axes, ice picks, and every other tool has more power when swung down. If you're trying to penetrate a shield and/or armor, it's the obvious choice. The underhand grip wins on control with the thumb and forefinger in front, but that's not what you need in every situation. Trying to thrust with full power from the underhand can also damage your wrist if the angle gets to obtuse. The best way to break through your enemies guard if speed and control don't work is to punch through with overwhelming force if your weapon is able to do so.
@shane8037
4 жыл бұрын
Murder is a purely legal concept, it means the unlawful taking of a human life. You mean killing. A soldier isn't a murderer when he does his job.
@lindybeige
10 жыл бұрын
Was agreeing with you until 5.00 when you said 'totally useless'. The guy behind you is safe if he's not closer than he should be, and you are holding the spear near the back, and you can raise your elbow to get the spear over your shield _and_ reach your foe's feet.
@PaulA-fp3vs
9 жыл бұрын
5:00
@jadervason8623
9 жыл бұрын
I think useless is a term used by the British as a common exaggeration, and is not as strong of an adjective as when used in American English where it is used literally.
@sirbobulous
9 жыл бұрын
Jadervason You're talking to Lindybeige. There are few people more British than Lindybeige in all of youtube.
@jadervason8623
9 жыл бұрын
sirbobulous I'll be sure to add him to my KZitem User Britishness Rankings...
@TemenosL
9 жыл бұрын
Lindybeige You do get more reach. And you also get a decidedly weaker strike. And you're also literally lending your opponents your spears, (Should they be desperate enough or in loose enough a formation to grab it, or if they simply decide to parry your spear and send another attack in simultaneously). For mock re-enactment fights I'm sure this is superior. For holding your ground I could see it as useful as well, to a degree. But I feel it's decidedly inoffensive as a method of using it. Reach is slightly over-rated too, when both you and your opponents are aligned in massive overlapped shieldwalls and covered in armor.
@jacobschmaus9271
3 жыл бұрын
I always thought of the overhand grip as a grip for close combatants or an aggressive stance. Use it like a rondel dagger with that icepick grip and just jam it in the enemy for a devastatingly powerful attack. You may even be able to jump in order to utilize gravity which is already on your side and easily pierce their armor. Yes you do not have range, but maybe close combat when you are fighting a big man with a sword who is just going to shield bash you it would be smart to bash him back and jam that spear in his neck, chest, or head. Often I see people try to stab forward with reverse grip like they would with underhand and you just cant do that. Instead strike downwards, no stabbing, like you are delivering a hammer-fist.
@themadmannn
7 жыл бұрын
There's also fighting in the defense of town walls which usually is forgotten but back in the days was common. If your enemies are way below (on a ladder for example) overarm is the way to go.
@FischBlubbBlubb
2 жыл бұрын
great point about the throwing position! it's definitely intimidating to know that someone can throw a spear at you at any moment. it directs a lot of attention to the thrower. everyone in throwing distance has to keep an eye out for the guy in addition to their direct opponents. shield wall fighting can get quite claustrophobic. from my experience, the lower spear position is a huge disadvantage when the enemy "charges" and closes in on sword/axe range. chances are, your spear's shaft will be stuck between shields and or bodies of both your opponents and your allies. as soon as someone gets past the point, your weapon becomes pretty much useless. When that happens, i usually have to drop the spear and switch to a seax or axe. in the higher position it's much easier to draw your weapon back and attempt another stab.
@Radio4ManLeics
7 жыл бұрын
long thrusting spears usually had a counterweight to change the position where you could hold it.
@saghistick
9 жыл бұрын
I agree with both points, and a think that on ancient artworks design could also be important, so it is poosible, that the hoplite often holds the spear overarm, because it looks better on the vase.
@jareth7456
4 жыл бұрын
Also if an enemy is striking at your weapon hand side you can drop the spear vertical point down in order to protect that side and after blocking sticking his foot to the ground.
@MrWizardjr9
9 жыл бұрын
you also can use the shield to protect your entire front side rather than one side and it has more power
@edraith
9 жыл бұрын
Hi Matt, this is a very nice video, as usual. May I ask how tall are you and how wide that shield is? Thank you.
@Spartiatai300
10 жыл бұрын
There is a video I found with people testing this, its called "techniques combat gaulois lance et bouclier". Good to see overarm in action.
@TemenosL
9 жыл бұрын
Spartiatai300 And very rare too. Spear and shield fighting (sparring) is excessively rare as is on youtube. Shame about it.
@rvep3irv
5 жыл бұрын
In Antiquety soldiers were trained to attack the face and neck, an underhand grip gives more power and you can throw your wight behind the blow.
@Albukhshi
10 жыл бұрын
reminds me of the Strategikon by Emperor Maurice (a Byzantine Emperor whole ruled in the last quarter of the 6th century). In describing the standard battle formation (the Foulkon), he explicitly mentioned that the front rank or two couched their spears, while the next two or three ranks held their spears overarm (or "in the matter of a javelin"), so that they could both melee, and if necessary, throw their spears at the enemy.
@RandyLeftHandy
8 жыл бұрын
I would love to see a comprehensive list of ways spears were mounted to shafts.
@ralummus
9 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. I once heard that in the 16th century pike walls. The front row of pikes were held straight out in front, whereas the subsequent rows behind were sometimes held at a slight downward angle to help prevent enemies from slipping down and past the front row of pikes. It would interesting to know if was the same sort of thing with spears, before pikes came into greater use. Anyway really cool video, thanks.
@Tananjoh
10 жыл бұрын
I have nothing to add to this except this video that shows some interesting ideas: Using the spear in ultra tight phalanx formation
@Daylon91
5 жыл бұрын
Love the video and switched from Lindy's channel. I personally cannot handle the way he speaks. Never grew on me.
@hyperrink
10 жыл бұрын
+scholagladitoria I appreciate your vids. Where we can we watch videos where spear throwing is allowed in the tournament?
@tommyss4l
9 жыл бұрын
In the Greek context, the muscles used for the over hand thrust were also the muscles used to row the ships, so as the soldiers were becoming competent sailors, they were becoming better spearmen as well
@formam1022
4 жыл бұрын
I believe both where used based on space, and if your like macadon with there pike would use it underhand, and march to battle on the shoulder, simular with the greek hoplites. Its quicker to go to underhand from shoulder rest.
@jonathanbangs6923
5 жыл бұрын
As a martial artist who has trained with the spear I'd agree it depends on the situation. It is easy, comfortable and quick to change from forward to backward grip on most spears.
@mordichi
9 жыл бұрын
3rd. Overhand does not cause you to protect less of your body with the shield. Any attack underhand towards the chest opens your chest up to an attack as well. From a simple standpoint on trying not to get killed, self preservation is very key factor in how you will fight.
@theoriginaldylangreene
9 жыл бұрын
But overhand exposes your armpit, so why didn't the Greeks cover theirs?
@evelcustom9864
2 жыл бұрын
That is a very logical and reasonable explanation. Especially the second part about the shield wall and phalanx formations, which really would not have left much space to move the spear around much. Seems the Romans partially solved that with switching the legions to the gladius and making the shields larger, thus allowing the legionnaires to get in closer and then thrust their sword at their opponents from any number of surprising locations.
@The1Helleri
10 жыл бұрын
My friends and I screw around a lot with foamed covered pvc practice weapons. And, I like spear and shield with a short sword fall back weapon. I've found holding it over arm has it's virtues. Firstly, You don't necessarily need to attack or ward with the point. Choking up on the base of the spear head from the grip that is necessary for holding it overarm, lets you make powerful and easy to recover blunt strikes downward and from the sides, with the shaft. It also gives you a lot of easy to recover reach (easier then with the spear head pointed out) with your shoulder dropped, that doesn't leave you absent the option of slashing upward, and then going back to stabbing with the head, if someone gets past the shaft. You can also do a sort of false throw like that from about any angle , where you do the motion of throwing but just let it slide through your grip and clinch down and yank back when your hand feels the shaft thickening again (even crossing the shield over the shaft to obstruct your main arm side and false thrusting from under your shield arm with the shaft sticking out behind you). My favorite thing to go for though is holding my shield far out and tilted to present my opponent with something they can't resist trying to knock out of the way, but doing so principally to obstruct their view, while I trip them with the shaft. Once their on the ground, my point is already trained at their throat. or abdomen. Overarm is actually a really useful and versatile way to hold it if you think of the point as something you finish with as apposed to starting with.
@bansheemopar
10 жыл бұрын
I totally agree. In addition I think the overarm is superior because if you use it underarm the shield and spear interfer and you will knock your own spear away when you move your shield to protect or have to open yourself in order to get free movement for the spear to attack. Additionally you have to hold your wrist in a very uncomfortable and bad position that makes your spear prone to disarm when it is hit from above or pushed down because your fingers open downwards. and your wrist cant compensate in this direction because it is at its limits of movement.
@Corenair2
10 жыл бұрын
Very insightful as usual. I would add that the underarm grip allows for some interesting parrying manoeuvres, as argued in the following video (at 1.35) techniques combat gaulois lance et bouclier Also, isn't an underarm grip useful for immediately stabbing downward, if you've knocked down an opponent with your shield (especially in the case of an hoplon with its forearm grip, which, I believe allows for a greater exertion of strength than a scutum) ?
@searsmonttownlibrary8637
9 жыл бұрын
I was always taught that the Roman Legionary carried two weights of pila. Light pila for throwing as the enemy approached (overarm), and heavy pilum for thrusting as the enemy was engaged (underarm).
@RikthDcruze
6 жыл бұрын
in India we only hold particular type of spears like that, in an over hand grip. but we mostly do it to come down at an angle over his shield and preferably stab him in the throat (because that's the most less guarded part only covered in chain mail. or stab him in the chest, for which u have to come down at an angle as a straight thrust will will surely get stopped by the plate metal breast plate.
@dhavidangelodeguzmanmarian7965
6 жыл бұрын
Great video! I always thought how they fight in the 300 movie now I know😊
@TheDcraft
4 жыл бұрын
@4:34 also, if they guy behind you is literally pushing his shield into you, potentially crushing you, having your arm elevated like that will allow you to keep jabbing away. If it was at you side it would just be pinned.
@Aw32999
9 жыл бұрын
Plus, you could probably get more force behind the thrust with the overhand method.
@437cosimo
10 жыл бұрын
I like it. The only thing I wonder about is how different shield shapes affect how the spear is held.
@BrutusTheOwl
10 жыл бұрын
I agree with your points though my theory is that the downwards thrust is a main point instead of a sort of sub point like you presented( or so it seemed to me). With the overarm position you would get at least a little bit more power when thrusting though I doubt it would be a huge factor, as well as being in a prime position to thrust at their head, neck, shoulders, etc. It is true they would just have to raise their shield up to deflect it but to do so I would think they would have to block their line of sight to do so, leaving them open in a sense.
@Mike28625
9 жыл бұрын
Good video. You brought up some interesting points. I would only add that perhaps the over hand stance is so popular in art is because it is more dynamic and tells a better visual story. The viewer can more clearly see that the spear man is about to unleash hell on his target. Underhand is more of a relaxed pose. A little more vague as to the holders intent. I wonder what classical texts or manuals might have to say about the subject.
@bastionblackperformance3804
10 жыл бұрын
I think an additional benefit of the overhand position in a dense formation/phalanx fight is that if/when the enemy closes to shield distance, you still have the ability to choke up on the spear shaft and engage targets that close in a more manageable position. -Lane
@brandonlasvegas
9 жыл бұрын
excellent post!
@joshuapelletier8219
9 жыл бұрын
First of all, great vids. i believe it is important to note that the Greeks would have counter weights on there spears, allowing them to be held much further back.
@Nardypants
10 жыл бұрын
I have a question. I remember seeing some paintings of 18th or 19th century lancers holding their lances overhand. I have never been able to find very detailed info on this and wonder if it was something that was common.
@johnjackson6614
8 жыл бұрын
An overarm stance allows a controlled throw against a close opponent. You can throw it, an by the time it hits you're hand will still be over the back of spear. You pull it back & up and it allows repositioning without hitting your m8 behind you in the phalanx.
@klavakkhazga3996
10 жыл бұрын
I'd say mobility is a very important factor. If you're able to move freely then you have more manouverability underarm and the spear side is kinda more protected with the armpit covered and the faster grip (and you can rotate to face your oponent). And overarm seems better with tight formations as you've said (maybe when fighting in two rows as well?)
@Kill4Dill
10 жыл бұрын
I'm really in the mood to see some spear&shield vs sword&shield sparring right now after all your latest video. Couldn't find any on youtube. too bad I can't try it out myself...
@grinofthegrimreaper
10 жыл бұрын
It seems to me that overarm gives you much more impact strength, so you could easily pierce trough a leather or similar armor, underarm wouldn't be as effective at piercing. Also a overarm thrust is harder to parry with a shield than an underarm strike, as you said. Just my two cents on that, I'm not an HEMA fighter so I wouldn't know really. Interesting and insightful videos as always Matt, thanks!
@AGS363
10 жыл бұрын
I think the main advantage of overarm is something else: If you use the underhand grip, you create a gap between your arm and the shield (which the enemy could, and would, exploit). The overhand grip on the other side makes it possible to cover your torso with the shield all the time. (You can actually see it in the video)
@justsomeguy3931
5 жыл бұрын
I agree 100% it explains a lot
@sinekonata
9 жыл бұрын
Also if shields are contiguous and overlap in formation, the shields block the spear with underarm grip. In classical Greece some shields were carved somewhat like a crescent to allow underarm grip.
@julianwille8338
9 жыл бұрын
That was mostly in the period of single combat
@camwyn256
9 жыл бұрын
Thumbs up for fighting in formation!
@Midgert89
9 жыл бұрын
Pikes are weilded underarm because of their weight. They are also typically counterweighted to be carried at the far end for maximum reach. Even the macedonian pike was a two handed weapon, and the shield was attatched to the users shoulder with a leather strap instead of carried in a hand. Spears are used in shield walls, and are always used overhead, because the guy behind you will put his shield up to your back adding his weight to yours and push so your side can roll over the opponents facing you. This is also how you brace for a cavalry charge before the pike square was invented. Even held at the middle of the shaft a spear will outreach most one handed swords used in a similar position, and you can carry more spears in your shield hand to equip after you throw them before a charge.
@ChristianMcAngus
9 жыл бұрын
Another thing might be that even though artwork of the periods showed overarm holds predominating, this may not have been accurate. The artists may have chosen to depict the overarm hold used far more than it was in real life because (a) it was deemed more "heroic" and (b) it was easier to illustrate.
@scholagladiatoria
9 жыл бұрын
ChristophInns Not impossible, but unlikely I think. There are many cultures from around the world, over centuries, who have used spears over-arm with shields.
@Lanmanfly
9 жыл бұрын
ChristophInns I don't understand b... how is it easier to illustrate... If you're a pottery craftsman or a vase artist (whatever they call them) you would probably know your craft well enough, that it wouldn't make a difference if you make a spear illustrated overhand or underhand... Honestly I see underarm to be easier to illustrate. The body takes up a smaller portion of the vase and the hand is closer to the body, therefore it's a smaller chance to make an error. And for the "heroic" stance, I call bullshit. It really doesn't look heroic, it look defensive. Your spear is further away from the your opponent, therefore he has almost little to no chance of grabbing your spear. And even if he does that now means he doesn't have a weapon to attack you with and therefore he's easy pickings, because he's so up close to you. Now all you have to do is quickly throw or drop the spear and get your sword. One thing that wasn't mentioned was what Thrand and Eldgrim from the ThegnThrand yt channel have been advocating, is the throw and pull back of the spear, basically a sliding motion, with which you gain a lot more distance than just stabbing with the underarm grip and you also generate more force.
@ThegnThrand
9 жыл бұрын
MetalChimp Thanks for mentioning my Throwing slide or gigging style. Here is a link Overarm Vs. Underarm Spear in Greek / Spartan Phalanx : Thrand's Spear Sliding Style Tested kzitem.info/news/bejne/rKp_tqRjpmhqdY4 Overarm Vs. Underarm Spear and Shield Reply to Demomanchaos and Critics kzitem.info/news/bejne/l4KXuX97bmmjjXY
@polymath7
9 жыл бұрын
MetalChimp I'm an artist, and as it happens one who as a child spent no small amount of time drawing ancient warriors with spears, and I promise you, it is much easier to convincingly draw a warrior holding a spear underarm. Why? Anatomy and perspective mostly. When an arm is raised and bent, it is always harder to draw than hanging at one's side. Raise your arm right now and bend it. Most likely, your elbow is not pointing straight ahead but rather pointing away from your torso at an angle, which is hard to depict in a profile view (or any view). Also, if the arm is both bare and mucular, having it raised considerably increases the difficulty of convincingly depicting how the deltoid, latissimus, and pectoralis muscles attach to the shoulder. Conversely, if the arm is hanging to the side, it's relatively easy to depict the deltoid as a simple heart or acorn shape. Add the fact that these works probably had to be painted directly, with little to no preparatory drawing or possibility of fixing mistakes, _and_ it's far more difficult to paint on a curved surface than a flat one. This is a large part of why the skill of the ancient Greek vase painters (the best of them anyway) is held in such reverential awe. That was probably far more than you wanted to know, but there it is.
@ThegnThrand
9 жыл бұрын
polymath7 Well said!
@evanmedeiros6883
8 жыл бұрын
Just a thought here about the nature of figurative art and silhouette. A spear held above the head and away from the body has a much clearer silhouette, it really spells out the intention of the spear wielder much clearer than a spear held closer to the body, where the body may obscure artistic clarity. This is a thought off the cuff, so feel free to ridicule as needed. If it sounds interesting enough to investigate, take a look at modern books, "how to draw comics..." Etc. Wonderful video by the way.
@roberttauzer7042
8 жыл бұрын
Good points - one more thing (speaking of hoplites fighting method) we often say that shields interlocked, which is true, but think about it - if shields interlock then only way to attack is from above (or below) shield wall. Opening up to attack underarm would endanger not only yourself but the solider to your left - this was simply not an option. Phalanx was equivalent of ancient era tank - it's shields had to be impenetrable interlocking wall. There was no individualism in phalanx fight - only a teamwork.
@Deerygccawwetthjbgde
7 жыл бұрын
The reason spears were very popular throughout history is not only the reach; the spear is the best weapon to form tight formation like shield wall. The slashing weapons such as the sword and ax take relatively large space to handle. For that, points that Matt made make complete sense.
@Apex8055
5 жыл бұрын
I think that the overhand stance was also done more in formations since in cases such as phalanxes, you got people behind you as well. An underhand stance could possibly mean that you jab (or stab as in the case of the spartans who are said to sport buttspikes in their spears) your mates behind you when you draw your spear back.
@markusschmitt8013
9 жыл бұрын
Has anyone cosidered that, they might have had a piece of cort or rope, attached to the butt-end of their spears. Similar to what you could do when spear-fishing? You'd have greatly more controle over the spear because you'd touch it at 2 points, like you'd do if you held it with 2 hands. You also see loops like these attache to umbrellas or nordic walking sticks for example. Try it for yourself with a broom, at which's end you attach a piece of cort (3 feet or so) and form a loop, which you can fit around your wrists.
@jaknife99
9 жыл бұрын
i think the overhand gives more power when your hand is closer to the head for and when you bring a downward thrust with the point your going to get more penetration, and since this would be likely in a large battle formation such as a phalanx you usually wouldnt worry about your sides being open thanks to the guys at your sides.
@kvarnerinfoTV
6 жыл бұрын
There is one more reason. Holding it overhand gives you to more options for stabbing as you can move your handover more than 90 degrees up and down and quickly change position of the spear - from the over head to the side and back.
@kravcio
10 жыл бұрын
Lindybeige made a video on this. What you missed is the fact that you can actually hold your spear pretty high with the under arm grip. What's more, when you showed thrusting over a shield wall, it actually looked pretty easy to dodge from the perspective of a camera, as the blade was hanging very low and not at the level of your opponent's head. Another thing, as Lloyd said, is that Greek cuirasses were reinforced on the sides around the level where a spear that is held under arm could hit, which kind of means that such strikes were expected.
@Ottuln
10 жыл бұрын
hehe, I am down here looking for a Lloyd comment myself.
@SODEMO2007
10 жыл бұрын
His point still stands, you get much higher up from the overhand, reducing the rist to the people behind you, the rest of your scenarion is pure conjecture and has no evidence supporting it.
@minoan_owen
10 жыл бұрын
The Greek Cuirasses that you are referencing are from the period of Philip II of Macedon's phalanx warfare. Several hundred years later in history.
@demomanchaos
10 жыл бұрын
SODEMO2007 You do realize you can take the spear over your head with the thumb-forward grip right (which would give far more control and reach, as well as allowing you to use more of your spear forward)?
@minoan_owen
10 жыл бұрын
You cannot use an underarm grip over your shoulder or with any height at all because that displaces any armour you are wearing.
@danieledwards2149
9 жыл бұрын
also, your blows have more weight in them since you are holding it with a downward angle and attacking from there, where as you have to generate allot of the force yourself with the underarm positoin
@DwarfLordAirsoft
7 жыл бұрын
Thegn Thrand has done some interesting videos on this
@StonesSticksBones
10 жыл бұрын
Could intimidation (prior to actually engaging) be a reason for the overhand grip?
@sigutjo
7 жыл бұрын
What kind of shield you're using here? Is it a wicker shield or something alike?
@egglplant96
9 жыл бұрын
It also seems a more heroic stance, with the raised arm.
@upgrayddable
9 жыл бұрын
The point you make about protecting your legs was addressed by Greek hoplites by wearing bronze greaves. Great subject.
@shelonnikgrumantov5061
5 жыл бұрын
There may be actually a third reason: pictures of warriors holding their spears upper arm look more vivid and articulated
@Psiberzerker
7 жыл бұрын
You also get more power with the mass (Part of Momentum) above the strike, than below it. Gravity assist.
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