Larry Elmores work is sorely missed. No one does detailed spell components like Elmore
@DrRotwang
Жыл бұрын
In my estimation, the only thing keeping the Rules Cyclopedia from being the perfect book is the absence of Elmore's art. ... and Caldwell's.
@Arasaka
7 ай бұрын
@@DrRotwang They are the two greatest for sure.
@marxmeesterlijk
Жыл бұрын
Meanwhile a level 1 wizard in DCC rolling a 20 on the spellcheck, with a +3 modifier and burning 5 points of strength in spellburn could cast a magic missile that summons 1d6+3 missiles that do 1d8+level damage. (doing between 8 and 81 damage) at any range. Or they could roll a 1 and kill themselves.
@megasquidd
Жыл бұрын
This is why I love DCC.
@marxmeesterlijk
Жыл бұрын
@@megasquidd you and me both :)
@stillmattwest
Жыл бұрын
DCC is metal AF.
@batou1976
Жыл бұрын
What is DCC? 🤔
@stillmattwest
Жыл бұрын
@@batou1976 DCC is Dungeon Crawl Classics. It's Basic D&D turned up to 11 and served with a side of insanity. So much fun.
@dagdamar2000
Жыл бұрын
one name...Bargle..He shows what a Magic missile can do...A well played mage is a terrifying opponent.
@michaelpenkas1885
Жыл бұрын
BECMI is preferrable when you're PLAYING a magic-user. But when you're FIGHTING a magic-user, all those advantages work against you. This means that a first-level party could actually be challenged by a single magic-user that's only a couple levels higher than them (especially if the terrain is set up so that they can't get within melee reach of the magic-user). It also makes spell scrolls much more valuable treasure items. These videos are always great. Thanks for doing this.
@taragnor
Жыл бұрын
Yeah that was definitely one big issue with the BECMI magic. Spellcasters in general were super powerful, especially since NPC casters didn't have to ration them per day, they could just go nova on the PCs with all their spell slots.
@stillmattwest
11 ай бұрын
It's something to think about in most OSR systems. I ran a Swords and Wizardry campaign where the lives of the entire group - they were 2nd level at that point - came down to landing an attack against an MU in an enemy NPC group, to prevent the casting of Sleep. If the spell had been cast, that would have been the end of the campaign. In OD&D the initiative works a little differently, and spells go off during the melee phase, which is AFTER ranged attacks. Sniping the spell casters is a big deal in that version of the game. Interestingly, BECMI and B/X both kept the different phases of the round (movement, ranged, melee, spells) but since they have all of those phases happen on a given characters initiative account, they don't have much point. It's one place where OD&D had it a bit better. In general, I just don't let NPC magic users have sleep. Can you imagine if Bargle kept Sleep memorized instead of Charm Person or Magic Missile? The tutorial would have ended with a TPK.
@mus0u
Жыл бұрын
one of my favorite things my players have ever done: i once confronted them with a rambo level solider of a rival adventurer. i gave him a very strong kit of gear and strong stealth abilities thinking he would be quite a challenge for the party. they used a hail of missile fire to force him to take cover under the water of a shallow river, then cast hold person, and that was that.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
That’s actually hilarious! Very old school tactics. Love it!
@hadeseye2297
Жыл бұрын
xD Great idea. The creativity of games that more about free form, rather than crunch.
@erictiso9315
Жыл бұрын
Many of the points I was going to mention have been covered by others. That hp in BECMI are worth more than 5e hp. That there are fewer spell slots, and slower progression. All good points. I liked playing Magic Users, and there's nothing so terrifying as when you start adventuring with 2 hp (due to that lucky CON bonus and a poor 1d4 roll), you only have one spell, and can't use armor while only wielding a dagger. Survivability wasn't great in early levels. But once they get advanced... Thanks for the video!
@agilemonk6305
Жыл бұрын
While I have played all the versions of D&D since 1974/75, and run 5e games, AD&D 1st Edition is still my favorite with BECMI coming in second. But watching your videos continues to push me back toward a stronger life for BECMI as the greatness it brought (and brings) to D&D and the TTRPG Hobby. Love your videos good sir. ❤
@ianlamont9434
Жыл бұрын
My favourite class to play in BECMI was always a Magic User. Although the spell list was limited the challenge was to find new ways of using the spells. There was nothing to say that your Ice Wall couldn't be an inch high and wide and long enough to make an ice floor and ruin the charge of that bunch of bad guys.
@searchforsecretdoors
Жыл бұрын
Brilliant. I have been playing exclusively 5e since I returned to D&D in 2019, but growing up I cut my teeth on the Mentzer Basic box. Makes me want to return to BECMI for my next campaign. We'll see...
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Come to BECMI…. 😉
@baileywatts1304
10 ай бұрын
When I played in older AD&D, magic missile was all about interrupting other spellcasters with a small bit of damage to stop their spellcasting, a 1st level counterspell, or in BECMI it was about using the many individual missiles to chew through stoneskin and mirror image. The actual damage output was secondary.
@Xaxares
Жыл бұрын
Just cast invisibility on a door at the top of a winding stair and stand on the other side to wait for some critter to come up and try to charge you. Don't forget about Sleep that it also has the reminder that helpless critters can be one-shot by anyone holding a sharp object. My main takeaway from comparing BECMI spells to 5e ones, isn't so much a question of power, though there is a clear difference, but a question of duration and permanency. Barely anything has any lasting consequences in newer editions so as to avoid crippling characters for one bad roll. And let us not forget that in BECMI, your little human wizards (and others if using optional rules in the Rulescyclopedia) can reach above 20.
@swirvinbirds1971
7 ай бұрын
There must have been a change to the invisibility spell at some point because all the way up to at least 2nd edition AD&D there was no casting it on an object. Sleep was only good at low levels. Once the creatures are over 4 HD it becomes useless. But good lord why did BECMI go to 2d8 for the number of hit dice effected from AD&D's & B/X's 2d4 hit dice effected? That seems a mistake in BECMI to me...
@Merlinstergandaldore
Жыл бұрын
Interesting note about Magic Missile - in B/X (and OSE) Magic Missile has a duration of 1 turn, which allows you to hold the missile for a while before firing if you want... but also in the Red Box Player's Book page 35 spell summary the list also shows the duration as 1 turn, even though the actual spell description does say 1 round. Rules Cyclopedia also reiterates the 1 round duration. I can't help but wonder if there were some back and forth decisions as they updated...
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Good catch! I didn’t know that. Editing was pretty inconsistent back then.
@justinclifton5521
Жыл бұрын
This is fast becoming one of my favorite channels!
@MichaelHaneline
Жыл бұрын
Though I overall agree, some things to note that you left out: -other BECMI spells are weaker in their function. The BECMI equivalent of identify is nearly useless. Read Magic and Detect Magic take up first level spell slots, so it uses up much more of a resource to read or detect magic. Shield isn’t very good either. -saving throws are harder to succeed at at low levels, but much easier at high levels, and spell level nor caster level nor caster ability scores makes the saves harder. So your 20d6 fireball might as well be a 10d6 fireball because 20th level targets are going to make their save vs spells much more often than not -BECMI Magic users have fewer spell slots. So even when you are picking the stronger spells, you still have less of them to use unless your DM is generous with scrolls and such
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Some good points here. Thanks for sharing.
@Kalarandir
11 күн бұрын
I know that in my current BECMI campaign, I have seen the Level 3 Magic User turn the tide of a certain TPK on its head with the judicious use of a Sleep spell.
@MarkMcMillen2112
Жыл бұрын
This is a fun comparison and it is interesting to note how spell descriptions have changed. One thing about sleep that made little sense to me was that the range was 240' and the spell affect area was 40'. So a spell caster could cast sleep on any creatures within a 40' area up to 240' away. The Moldvay edition only mentioned the range of 240', so I interpreted it to mean any creature within a radius of 240' from the spell caster could be affected.
@darthtc23
24 күн бұрын
Ok. I’m definitely returning to Classic (BECMI) D&D.
@beansmalone1305
Жыл бұрын
I like 5E but it has a nerfed feel to it because there is basically zero chance of pcs dying. I stopped running AL games because players whine and cry when their bad decisions lead to bad things happening. The "everyone gets a trophy crowd" is well represented. I subbed. Glad to be here.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
And good to have you here. 👍
@Jay-ql4gp
5 ай бұрын
I loved this, thank you! And admittedly, the most glaring problem I have with spell memorization is this, You can only memorize something once. Unless those other Magic Missiles are worded different. But I digress.
@Mr_Welch
Жыл бұрын
You've also got the added element that saving throws in BECMI are much harder than 5e until higher levels
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Yup.
@robbabcock_
Жыл бұрын
Great stuff! 🧙🔥🙌
@DrRotwang
Жыл бұрын
Maaaaan, I subscribed to you a long time ago. And now I tell my friends!
@iolair1973
9 ай бұрын
Also: a 1st level Magic User in BECMI could prepare and cast only one spell. That one Magic Missile and then you're done - run, or dagger if cornered. In 5e we have two slots straight away as well as limitless firebolts. At high level, BECMI MUs were amazing, but we'd avoid starting one because they were so limited and vulnerable to start out before we got to high levels.
@PedanticTwit
7 ай бұрын
This is a good summary of how imbalance can inform world building. People in the fictional world have the same incentive/disincentive structures as players, and people are loss averse. So if you want magic users (especially high level ones) to be rare in your world's demographics, make it so that low levels are highly skewed in favor of noncasters. Yes, this means that linear-fighters-quadratic-wizards can be a justified design choice. After all, balance is a means, not an end.
@SerithValComnion
11 ай бұрын
I would be down to watch more spell comparisons, maybe evolution or devolution of spells over the editions EDIT: Maybe even about spells that were lost over the years like sticks to snakes
@Mothra-Best-Kaiju
Жыл бұрын
I'm surprised there was no mention of spells like Wish and Haste having dramatic drawbacks (aging the caster or target) in older editions which made them feel a little more more mythical.
@djholland7
Жыл бұрын
Enjoy your videos and channel. I don’t know what I don’t know. Any BECMI content you put out im going to consume it up. Thanks for your attention to details in these videos. Very professional.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Much appreciated.
@DjigitDaniel
Жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Leaving a comment more for the clockwork overlords rather than personal reasons, but cheers to your excellent content. As the years of studying the hobby accumulate I've realized that the more I study the rules the less I need the rules. I also find that, as a solo gamer without companions to play with, the numbers are much more arbitrary to me: with nobody to collaborate or compete with other than my own imagination it's an intellectual exercise more than a structured simulation. I like the old school approach more nowadays because of its minimalism.
@hadeseye2297
Жыл бұрын
Free form is always a better solution. Nothing bogs down the game. If you are in deep sheyt as a GM you use rule 0 and move on with the game. Later you either incorporate such rule, or you treat it like reality. Each situation is different. ;)
@DjigitDaniel
Жыл бұрын
@@hadeseye2297 correct.
@Goshin65
Жыл бұрын
Yet another reason to prefer B/X or BECMI over 5e... as if I needed more reasons. :)
@easygurps
7 ай бұрын
Great break down and comparison. I had never considered before. Thank you!
@AntonioEstevez2toast
Жыл бұрын
Another interesting exploration, thanks for doing the work
@graham4885
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the clear and details content. I agree that BECMI spells, especially at mid and higher levels are awesome.
@nicklarocco4178
Жыл бұрын
"Always geek the mage." One of the things that makes 5e wizards less exciting is that everyone in 5e has magic. And we've seen most spells only scale with higher spell slots, but this just encourages min-maxing as there is always a best spell to cast with a particular spell slot. Why on earth would you cast a 5d4+5 magic missile when you can cast an 8d6 fireball with a 3rd level slot? Magic in 5e doesn't feel magical because everyone has it, and because of the (lack of) scaling it's entirely predictable.
@henrycaltagirone3959
Жыл бұрын
There's something to be said for both becmi and 5e " magic users " (as a catch all term) The becmi spells are clearly superior in damage out put especially since becmi monsters have far less hp. But at the same time , the frustration of a young lad walking around the dungeons with a lv 1 magic user having 1 lv 1 spell for the whole day, not having any armor, a maximum of d4+3 hp if your con was 18 (it probably wasn't) (I can almost guarantee it wasn't)and then having to resort to the staff or the dagger when that spell was used. Well i mean damn right that spell better be combat changing 😂 you may not live to cast another! (You still probably wont you'll have to roll a new character)
@PatricRogers
Жыл бұрын
Excellent compare and contrast of the spells! One thing I enjoy about your vids is how BECMI and 5e are built from the ground up to be entirely different games, with different purpose, and the same window dressing. Each with pros and cons depending if players want to play Harry Potter Monopoly or Harry Potter Scrabble.
@ChaosTicket
9 ай бұрын
Save-or-Die spells will always be stronger than rolling for damage. Spells may have reached their peak in 3.5 as often spells would do Caster Level X=effect in damage, range, and targets affected.
@becmiberserker
9 ай бұрын
I do have a guilty crush on 3.5, for all the pain it caused me.
@stefanjakubowski8222
Жыл бұрын
The meat and potatoes, I love this sort of analysis Thanks
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
You’re welcome.
@BlackJar72
4 ай бұрын
My comparisons were fly and polymorph other: Fly: 1d6+caster level 10 minute turn duration, concentration only needed to move, vs. 10 minutes with concentration required to maintain. Polymorph Other: Permanent, complete transformation, vs. a polymorph spell that is basically polymorph self that can effect someone else.
@tylergreen4977
7 ай бұрын
Please do higher level spells. Also, it'd be amazing if you compared older edition spells to newer edition ones or just went over spells that are not in newer editions that are in BECMI :)
@nordicmaelstrom4714
Жыл бұрын
I do think you forgot to add one important detail between the editions. That is of course the number of spell slots per day. 5E spellcasters have spell slots coming out of their rears and also maintain unlimited cantrips which can do damage as well. Whilst BECMI spells are generally stronger on average the individual spellcasters lack the amount of spellslots and cantrips of the 5E caster. Its a difference in game philosophy I think. In BECMI you truly get a sense of things as being powerful and respected but in 5E everyone and their mother can throw about spells and effects that magic is simply just another tool much like a bow or sword but in BECMI magic is truly respected and above all else FEARED!
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
I was going to expand the scope of the vid to include the difference between spellcasting in editions, rather than just spells, but it was getting too long. I agree with you though. The cantrip spamming is like a gun that never runs out of ammo.
@nordicmaelstrom4714
Жыл бұрын
@@becmiberserker Tell me about it. I really can't fathom how people find it fun to play a game where magic is so overpowered and the characters are never truly in danger. Just doesn't make for a good time. I like the drama and the dread that comes from BECMI when it comes to combat. Just a much different game.
@hadeseye2297
Жыл бұрын
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 When I've ran games back in the 90's I never liked (A)D&D approach to HP (and few other things - thieve's backstab). The best solution for me was to make players roll Health for new characters like they would be of 3rd level. And that's that. No more HP gain. (:
@nordicmaelstrom4714
Жыл бұрын
@@hadeseye2297 I love how Traveller does hit points based on three stats. Also love how world of darkness and Vampire the Masquerade do health.
@Alche_mist
2 ай бұрын
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 If the characters are never in danger, it's a mistake on the DM part, not a design aspect. "Not dying to the first stray arrow" really doesn't mean "never in danger" and there is drama to be had evacuating your friend helplessly bleeding on the floor even if they didn't already die for being at 0. It's a different game (very correct there) and a different way to source the drama, but calling it not to be there is a fundamental misunderstanding of at least one of the systems.
@comproggi
Жыл бұрын
In general, it seems like the older versions of spells were meant to be far more useful in a narrative sense than their modern equivalent. Sleep or Charm being two great thematic ways for the villain to provide a hook by making off with a VIP to draw the party in.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Yup. Much more story based.
@brentnorton1602
Жыл бұрын
Charm is frightening in Becmi.
@solarus2120
Жыл бұрын
The factor I'm not seeing in other comments is the survivability and progression of magic users. 5e gets Mage Armour as a LV1 spell giving equivalent protection to light armour. Doesn't stop the wizard possibly being done in by a single blow but it is at least better than AC 9. Also, the MU has the slowest level progression of the human classes, and is only eclipsed by the elf if demi-humans are included. This can mean that, by the time the MU hits 5th level and gets fireball, their companions are already several thousand xp closer to 6th.
@Monkey_Spunk
Жыл бұрын
This is the best thing I ever saw.
@engbama
Жыл бұрын
I picked four of the five: magic missile, sleep, hold person, and fireball. I was thinking charm person instead of mirror image. Still, good points all around.
@f.b.3263
Жыл бұрын
Very nice and informative video, keep up the good work!
@ivanrichmond3524
Жыл бұрын
Good video! One thing you left out is that BECMI magic-users can cast significantly fewer spells than 5e Wizards. There are no 0th level cantrips. A 1st level MU can cast only 1 1st level spell. Also, they cannot wear ANY armor, cannot use crossbows, it takes more XP to level them up, and they get only 1d4 HP per level. Having played them, let me tell you, they're really hard to play at low level for this reason. They're practically useless when not casting spells (just throwing daggers). So you really want your spells to be powerful when you cast them. Also, they were described as an investment class. If you can get them past about 5th level, they're worth it, but they're really hard to play until then.
@andrewtomlinson5237
Жыл бұрын
The difference between spells lilke Hold and Sleep are another example that 5E is geared toward being more like an MMO Combat simulator. I play 2E more than BECMI, and the durations on Sleep and Hold Person are similarly longer. This is because those are the spells you use to avoid killing people. Let's say that you have to break into the King's palace to steal something because the bad guy has your friends held hostage. So you really want to avoid killing the guards and staff. You use Sleep and Hold Person... If those spells only last a minute all that does is effectively throw a "Miss One Round" condition marker at the target. Having barely played 5E, I have no idea... what are the options to achieve a non fatal outcome like the one I described?
@davidtauriainen9116
Жыл бұрын
Non-lethal injury in 5e can be achieved by reducing a target to zero HP with any melee attack. Edged, blunt, piercing, electric-magic melee, whatever. And it's only the final blow that needs to be decided as non lethal. In 5e, when Julius asks "Et tu Brute", Brutus can hit him with a final stab and declare it non-lethal rendering Caesar unconscious. It's mechanically easier than tracking subdual damage, but ridiculous.
@davidtauriainen9116
Жыл бұрын
Oh, and I always used sleep in BECMI and 2e as an instant-kill spell. Killing a sleeping target was simple in older editions. 5e just gets you advantage to hit unconscious targets with auto-crit, and they automatically wake after the first damage...
@andrewtomlinson5237
Жыл бұрын
@@davidtauriainen9116 I'm sorry, you can simply choose to do non lethal damage with ANY weapon? Not missile weapons though, right? I get that in the situation you describe Brutus could just make the final dagger a pommel to the head instead of a dagger to the heart, but you can't do that in actual combat surely? If you can do that, then yes... absolutely Ridiculous. D&D has always had probably the least realistic combat system going, it was based on medieval wargames rules not designed as bespoke single melee combat system, and other games came along and created more realistic systems. But even in its wildest days earlier editions never "simplified" it to the point where you could chose whether stabbing someone with a spear would be considered "lethal" or not. I know 5E is fanous for its obsession with "Player Agency" and how not letting the player decide something is a crime against humanity... but really?
@andrewtomlinson5237
Жыл бұрын
@@davidtauriainen9116 You should be able to kill a sleeping target. Of course you should. If you want to know how easy it is, go watch the episode of The Walking Dead where the "Heroes" sneak into the Saviours advance compound and literally stab them through the ears with sharp pointy weapons. The only thing making it difficult is having a conscience. But if word gets out that "Heroes" are murdering people in their sleep, then that can have repercussions. If you are using alignment then obviously you have to balance murder against your ethics. I had a party years and years ago, who used the "Sleep then stab them in the ear..." method a little too often for my liking, (it was simple and effective and it became a crutch...) so one time when they were polishing off a small bandit group, a kid from the town they were staying at spotted them going round sticking daggers through sleeping people's heads... and when they got back to town, word had spread and they lost a lot of trust. They denied it, but someone went and brought the bodies back... No combat wounds, just murder holes in ther heads... made the situation worse... The repercussions made life more difficult for them, and they didn't do it again.
@joshuahadams
Жыл бұрын
A round in 5e is six seconds. If you’re out for a minute, that’s ten rounds.
@jeremygrice4453
Жыл бұрын
If only I had someone to play with and teach me this game. I started in 2nd edition with some friends when I was 13 years old never like any of the others as much as I like the older stuff.
@rolanejo8512
Жыл бұрын
Love this. OSR magic is the best kind of magic.
@andystephens8048
Жыл бұрын
Sleep in 5e is frustrating from a gameplay and storytelling aspect. Fireball on the other hand, while underpowered in 5e at higher levels, it is worth noting that a successful save only protects targets from 1/2 the damage. So, it always hits.
@eliasferdinandsson1719
Жыл бұрын
Great video! Sharing it. It would be fun to see incinerate compare 😉
@stephenclements6158
Жыл бұрын
Good video!
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Thank you.
@hakdov6496
11 ай бұрын
you should have compared Charm too - super powerful in Basic, almost useless in 5e
@merethif
Жыл бұрын
The main difference in Sleep spell is an ability to insta-kill any sleeping monster, you don't need to roll for attack or damage. I was recently playing 5e (B/X is my main D&D edition) and I cast Sleep and wanted to kill sleeping opponent and DM told me to roll for attack and I was like seriously? There's a chance I will miss unconscious target standing right next to it? And then I had to roll for damage and since that sleeping creature had like 18 hp I was unable to kill it with single blow. It was a huge let down really. And I took Sleep only because how powerful it is in B/X.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Lateral thinking is not rewarded in 5e.
@agilemonk6305
Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Very kind. Thank you!
@xaxzander4633
Жыл бұрын
Polymorph other- Becmi permanent until dispelled. 5e 1 hour. Turn someone into an ant. they stay an ant forever unless someone can tell they have been polymorphed. In 5 e they stay that way for an hour, and revert back with the HP they had B4 the transformation. The thing with magic in older editions was there were many "One and done" spells.
@steveblunden2295
Жыл бұрын
My two points worth in this discussion are: 1. Spellcasting in 5th Ed originates from AD&D, and not Basic D&D. Hence the greater complication and the use of Spell Components. 2. Spells of earlier editions of D&D, including BECMI were more powerful but Magic Users and Clerics were limited to only those spells. Once cast, that was it. Low level Spellcasters were lucky to cast more than one spell! Cantrips were introduced in 3rd Ed as a way around this limitation. Now users of magic had more magic to cast. But this increase in power meant that the actual spells themselves needed their power turned down. Still, I do like the idea of putting all those orcs to sleep - though I doubt most Parties will let the orcs sleep on for all 3 hours .... 😮
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Sweet dreams…
@npcsforhire
Жыл бұрын
Everything I watch one of your videos I miss the old school days or BECMI and Advanced. We ran a hybrid of the two games together.
@hadeseye2297
Жыл бұрын
Best part of it is... A game's a game. New editions don't cancel the real deal. Ask yourself. How many editions of cheese is out there? One, right? Now. A game is not a food. It won't root. In other words there's nothing to be missed. Just played as you used to, not giving a crap about anything past that.
@npcsforhire
Жыл бұрын
@hadeseye2297 You are absolutely right. Right now however. how do you get 4 other people who have invested time and lots of money, in the latest cheese and switch to a cheese almost none have have ever tasted? I'm going to try after the next campaign. the mental fallout will be epic. Part of me can't wait to see the chaos. The other part knows it really isn't going to happen. but I'm going to try. But in the end you are right.
@raff3486
Жыл бұрын
great vid!
@EugeneGM1
Жыл бұрын
I'd really like to know which spells didn't end up in 5th edition.
@swirvinbirds1971
7 ай бұрын
Any idea why BECMI pumped up the sleep spell over B/X and AD&D? Is 2d8 hit dice being effected a mistake in BECMI? All previous versions it was 2d4 Hit dice effected. BECMI doubled the hit dice effected for some reason.
@NegatveSpace
Жыл бұрын
11:57 Why does the non-cleric version of hold person at the top say 1 turn per level then in the description say 9 turns? It seems like it should say "up to 9 turns"? It also looks like the BECMI version allows more targets than the 5e version.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
Poor editing. They copied the cleric version to both classes. They differ in the Expert Set (blue box). I should have stated that. Very astute of you! 🙂
@anarionelendili8961
Жыл бұрын
Another thing I noticed yesterday about BECMI Sleep spell that (at least in RC) the victims don't even get a saving throw. I house-ruled that away very quickly in our starting campaign.
@Ixnatifual
Жыл бұрын
It's the same in AD&D. Potentially, a level 1 enemy magic-user could put an entire party of level 4 PCs to sleep with no saving throw if he wins initiative :-)
@johndoucette6085
Жыл бұрын
@@Ixnatifual Remember that the spell affects 2d8 (IIRC) HIT DICE of creatures, not number of creatures, so that 4th level party has 16 hit dice (if a standard party of four), making it very unlikely, though not impossible, that sleep would take them all out. It's what makes even such a low level spell so dangerous.
@Ixnatifual
Жыл бұрын
@@johndoucette6085 You're right!
@ObatongoSensei
Жыл бұрын
Frankly, in my opinion, 5e's spell system is the worst of all the editions, excluding 4e, which didn't have one at all. You can think of it as a fusion of the BECMI-style vancian slot system with the 3.5 psionic augmentation system for enhancing the effect, instead of simply leveling up as a spellcaster. It just doesn't work well as the other two did, especially with the supernerfed spell effects of 5e.
@PatricRogers
Жыл бұрын
"Okay, I fired off my Sleep spell! Now we need to hole up for 8 hours 15 minutes..." (Okay, that's 1e, but you know what I'm sayin 😂 )
@RB-sz9gv
11 ай бұрын
BECMI is by far the best.
@nosaurian
Жыл бұрын
funny I was looking for a video on this since a couple of days ago and I in fact ended up watching one of your videos but felt that there was little talk on youtube about the subject of spell level (and spell Power) differences between "old" and "new" school, and indeed specifically about the companion, master, and immortal rules.
@spartaninvirginia
Жыл бұрын
Off topic, but you had an "upcoming" video on B2 that disappeared. Is that coming back any time soon?
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
It was just me fiddling around with some livestream software which ended up communicating a schedule I had no intention of keeping. Sorry for any confusion.
@spartaninvirginia
Жыл бұрын
@@becmiberserker Not an issue, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something!
@DoctorLazers
6 ай бұрын
For context, the BECMI Red Dragon has 45hp. The 5e one has 256. The scaling is totally different.
@becmiberserker
6 ай бұрын
The BECMI Red Dragon would be either Small, Large, or Huge. The best comparison with the 5e Adult Red Dragon you selected (19HD) would be the Huge Red Dragon (20HD). This could have a maximum of 160 hit points, almost 100hp short of the 5e version, mainly due to the 5e hit dice being d12 rather than BECMI’s d8.
@DoctorLazers
6 ай бұрын
@@becmiberserker But 256 is the average for 5e. 160 is the MAX for BECMI. Never calculate max or minimum on multiple dice because it will skew heavily toward the average. So it's closer to say 90hp (BECMI) vs 256hp (5e). And remember, there are levels of dragon above Adult in 5e. BECMI caps out with Huge. I also think the fact that monsters have CON scores and add that bonus to their HP is a bigger factor. 5e's Adult Red Dragon gets +7 HP on each hit die, whereas the d12 vs the d8 is only an average of 2hp per die. Another example is the Beholder, which has around 50hp in BECMI and 180hp in 5e. A 5e Troll has 84hp vs a BECMI Troll with 30. It's fairly consistent that monsters in BECMI have about 1/3rd the hit points as their 5e equivalent, give or take. I'm sure there are exceptions though.
@becmiberserker
6 ай бұрын
@@DoctorLazers You’re right of course. This balances with the lower amount of damage that character may inflict on creatures. Although, weapon mastery can throw that out completely and become an unbalancing factor.
@DoctorLazers
6 ай бұрын
@@becmiberserker I feel like weapon mastery was designed to allow martial characters to keep up with casters, who infamously outpace them by leaps and bounds as the game progresses. And it's also an optional feature anyway.
@roygoodman1077
Жыл бұрын
According to RAW in 5e. Magic Missile only 1d4 is rolled, and each missile does that amount of damage.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
The PHB says 1d4+1 per missile…
@roygoodman1077
Жыл бұрын
@@becmiberserker Jeremy Crawford clarified this in a Sage Advice video on KZitem.
@solarus2120
Жыл бұрын
@@roygoodman1077Jeremy Crawford often says things that contradict the text, common sense, logic and himself
@roygoodman1077
Жыл бұрын
@solarus2120 the text itself was vague, and that's why he mentioned the spell.
@solarus2120
Жыл бұрын
@roygoodman1077 I'm not saying that everything he says should be ignored. His stated position on Druid weapon and armour proficiencies being Legacy and can be ignored without changing the balance, or that Warlocks were an Int caster at one stage of 5e development are good and solid. But sometimes, he does spout twaddle
@markfaulkner8191
Жыл бұрын
The spells in both BX and BECMI are much more powerful than their Hasbro counterparts.
@GreenBlueWalkthrough
Жыл бұрын
Honestly netheir seem OP as a game dev especly since in 5E you have more health and in BECMI an army of people you can jump into atleast at level one and as you said in the sweet spot of levels their even... So yeah how are etheir OP exactly or really all that differnt? Like I get the BECMI magic user would win if both sides all had the spells shown in the video and could use all of them each turn... Which would make for a interesting video consider each use the same dice but the 5e character would have much more health if the duel was at level 20... But yeah I don't get it like a martals that under powered or something? How do they match up?
@samfisherxboxog8925
Жыл бұрын
I like the Mork Borg magic system. If you fumble your basically dead. If you succeed you might wind up saving your entire party.
@miguelroca5098
Жыл бұрын
5e wizards are designed to blast thing all day, even if you are left out spell slot you still have cantrips. BECMI Magic-Users can end encounters with hordes of enemies in one round. You can die as easily too. That's why you usually play with retainers or more than one character, something harder to do under WOTC editions. I prefer BECMI MUs over 5e Wizards because the later feel like smart people that risk their lives to become more powerful and acquire forbidden lore (or money). The 5e version characters in an action flick with 100 guns under his clothes. Funny, but hardly wizardly.
@Liethen
9 ай бұрын
Why does the BECMI version say 4+1 hit dice rather than just saying 5 hit dice?
@32kylebeam
7 ай бұрын
because, its 4 HD, +1
@Liethen
7 ай бұрын
@@32kylebeam thanks, but I figured it out, didn't realize all the creatures used the same size HD, so there is no need to specify 4d8+1 vs 4d6+1
@agentalpha2461
Жыл бұрын
BECMI Magic Missile is more powerful. You did not calculate the difference in target health. Also as a note. Magic Missile is presented wrong in the spell description. The duration should read that it lasts 1 turn until fired. This in my game makes the mage a much deadlier class. He can fire off a magic Missile as long as he was not surprised. As shot takes place before other combat.
@silverwolf5101
11 ай бұрын
The sleep spell was my go to in BECMI. When you're up against a bunch of kobolds/goblins/orcs, that's when you're up wizard! Obviously in 5E, when you have unlimited cantrips that could do more damage than a 1st level BECMI magic missile, those lower level spells had to be nerfed.
@davidbrennan660
Жыл бұрын
FIREBALL!...... I hope the video and channel survives.
@X.davidWilliams
2 ай бұрын
Huzzah
@leorblumenthal5239
Жыл бұрын
You're comparing apples to oranges. In BECMI magic users have fewer overall spells, but the spells they have are game breaking. In 5E, all primary spellcasters (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard) get cantrips they can cast at will, as well as leveled spells. If a first level magic user memorizes Sleep and the party encounters undead such as skeletons, that magic user is useless. By contrast, a 5E first level Wizard gets to prepare spells equal to their level plus their Intelligence modifier. Let's say that Wizard prepared Sleep, along with Shield, Magic Missile Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Expeditious Retreat. This Wizard also knows the cantrips Fire Bolt and Minor Illusion. And in their spellbook they have Detect Magic and Tenser's Floating Disk. If the party encounters undead such as skeletons, the Wizard can cast Magic Missile or Fire Bolt. If a Skeleton gets too close, and lands a lucky blow the Wizard can cast Shield to try and avoid the blow, or cast Expeditious Retreat to try and run away. And if the party wins the combat, the Wizard can use ritual casting to cast Detect Magic and Tenser's Floating Disk to determine what's worth taking and to carry it out of the dungeon.
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
But I didn’t compare spellcasters. I compared spells. 🙂
@leorblumenthal5239
Жыл бұрын
Spells don't exist in a vacuum. The spells in BECMI aren't intended to be balanced. They are game breaking, but magic users get a single one at first level. If they memorize the wrong spell, they are out of luck (and may need to roll up a new character).
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
@@leorblumenthal5239 Game breaking? No. Many games have gone on for many years, so that debunks that. As for magic users choosing the wrong spell? Well, that’s part of the game. You live or die by your choices. Kind of like real life. BECMI and other old school games hold you to account for your choices and the management of your spell resources needs close attention. Fail to do this well and you won’t last long. Succeed and you access immense power. That was the draw of playing a magic user.
@kwaksea
Жыл бұрын
Even in such weakened/restrained state, WotC is trying to raise martial's power in current ONE dnd
@garwynrosser8907
Жыл бұрын
Not comparing cantrips?
@becmiberserker
Жыл бұрын
BECMI didn’t have cantrips.
@Dave_L
Жыл бұрын
These kind of videos are kind of difficult to understand for those of us that have no reference point whatsoever to 5e… I want to sub because I like the BECMI discussion, but 5e is all Greek to me. It kind of feels like only half the video is for me and half is for someone else entirely. I can't really sign up for 15 minutes of listening to something or other about 5th Edition so I guess I'm really not the intended audience. Good luck with your channel though.
@sevenbastard
6 ай бұрын
Charm Person, and absoulte beast in Basic and a worthless dud in 5e.
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