The analysis of the unintentional comeback mechanic in Brood War is spot on. What might be perceived as clunkiness and technical limitations -- 12 unit selection limit and crazy unit pathing -- ended up created a better game. SC2 has core instrisic issues that stem from what seemed like obvious QoL improvements such as better unit pathing, clumping, and unlimited unit selection but this caused the fundamental deathball issue which leads to most games being decided in a single engagement instead of scrappy back and forths. As a result they deliberately created new anti-deathball AoE units like the Disruptor which is emblematic of an arms race of Blizzard deliberately designing units to cover intrinsic design flaws as well as trying to deliberately craft flashy playmaking units. Another huge mechanic in Brood War that wasn't mentioned is the high ground mechanic. Units in Brood War firing on units at higher elevations have a 47% chance to outright miss every attack! This means pushing up a defended ramp is extremely painful for the attacker especially combined with the crazy pathing. This gives huge defender's advantage allowing smaller group of units with better terrain to stop significantly larger armies. It's pretty much the only form of RNG in Brood War other than SCV pathing while building. The beauty of Brood War was it being mostly accidental and a one of a kind so we'll likely never seen anything like it again.
@aVataR_ehyeh
2 ай бұрын
Melee is also some kind of miraculous design "accident". It's mind-boggling how such a genius design has held up for so many years in a game that was rushed and not really intended for competitive play.
@GlitchanBlack
2 ай бұрын
Sonic the Fighters doesn’t even have a rubber-banding mechanic - that’s THE CATCH-UP SYSTEM YOU’RE DESCRIBING.
@eduardoserpa1682
2 ай бұрын
Interesting enough, some of the more recent attempts at Blizzard-style RTS have been tackling that specific issue head-on in pretty different ways between Stormgate, Battle Aces and ZeroSpace. Stormgate specifically is trying to re-introduce that kind of big army clunkiness through unit (less effective range and/or mobility) and map design, and so far it's felt slightly closer to SC1 than to SC2 in that regard. The problem with that approach is that it remains to be seen if that will continue to be the case as they release the higher tech units. Everything falls apart if we get too many units that are either too fast, too small (for their supply cost) or too mobile, and air units have the biggest risk of being all three.
@evilpeti
2 ай бұрын
Videos and comments of this sort make me proud to be part of the FGC. Have a great day, everyone!
@jpVari
2 ай бұрын
This hasn't been true of starcraft 2 in many many years, meaning it's not intrinsic to the control style at all. Part of this change is that players have gotten better and better and better, and due to other differences in bw and sc2 it's possible to have fights on more fronts in sc2. Just like mathematically not having to go back to your base to macro as often will make this true. Starcraft bw also has defenders advantage, arguably stronger than 2,which is a comeback mechanic depending how we want to look at them (part of why I think knee jerk being against them is a misunderstanding)
@DAWGIESZ64
2 ай бұрын
This was his excuse to talk about his favorite rts on his fighting game video
@TheoryFighter
2 ай бұрын
You right
@Takato
2 ай бұрын
I know your thing is usually SF, but if you ever wanna dabble into poverty kusoge secret comeback mechanics from the 90's, you can take a look at the rubberbanding on Sonic the Fighters, that shit's so insane that the recent community patch disabled the mechanic entirely lol
@neonthunder3261
2 ай бұрын
I'm ngl community rebalancing would never stick in any other FG that suggestion would be blasted out of the room fast as fuck
@jasonfails237
2 ай бұрын
@neonthunder3261 This is straight up wrong other communities do it with other poorly balanced casual fgs all the time. Look at the Naruto gamecube games for example.
@lawnbb12372
2 ай бұрын
The smash community is built on house rules
@otterdonnelly9959
2 ай бұрын
@@neonthunder3261MvC3 palette swap is kinda accepted
@sonicphoenix7
2 ай бұрын
smash players trying to make a party game competitive is honestly admirable
@PinkyJustice
2 ай бұрын
It kinda feels like they weren't intentionally making a comeback mechanic, and instead were trying to make a "more third rounds" mechanic to increase that "versus" tension they were chasing at the time. And honestly, they probably removed it because it is easier to make money the less often round 3 happens.
@jimbo5266
2 ай бұрын
That is a comeback mechanic, by definition, though. It's rubberbanding, which is a common type of comeback mechanic. The person down a round is "losing" and giving them a benefit to make them more likely to win that round is a comeback.
@PinkyJustice
2 ай бұрын
@@jimbo5266 ok? How does that conflict with what I said? I said "they probably weren't TRYING to make a comeback mechanic" and you defined a type of comeback mechanic they ended up making.... Cool.
@xhoidlostblade3856
2 ай бұрын
There's another "probably unintentional" comeback mechanic that I absolutely love from a puzzle game. In Puyo Puyo, there's a speed cap on how fast you can play. It isn't like modern Tetris in which you can hard drop pieces instantly to bottom, you have to hold the down button until the puyos reach their place and stay still. Without going into much detail, this gives the slight advantage of being able to place puyos faster to the player whose screen is more filled and potentially closer to defeat as they have to wait less time between placing their pieces.
@Dragondraikk
2 ай бұрын
For Puyo that is a bit deceptive though, as whoever is higher up on the screen is also much more likely to have the bigger attack ready, and if that difference gets large enough, the opponent likely won't have enough time to counter it sufficiently. Although that said, the time increasingly large combos take to actually *send* the garbage over is a much better example, as larger combos mean exponentially more damage, but also more and more time for the opponent to build up and launch their own.
@missingno_fgc
2 ай бұрын
Since Tsu is usually* a one hit kill game, being high up has little to do with death. Flying close to the sun to build a chain that uses the entire board is the norm. If your board is full, it's full of ammo.
@xhoidlostblade3856
2 ай бұрын
I wrote "Without going into much detail," exactly because of stuff like that. Granted your board is not full of garbage, it's better to have your board filled than empty. Still, while being high is advantageous, it's also when you're the most vulnerable and probably die to any 1/2 power chain. But again, keep in mind I threw this example in the context of "comeback mechanics". If you eat a poke (a chain hits you but doesn't kill you), then you're probably higher than your opponent; and *if* your board isn't completely screwed then you have the *slight* advantage of being able to harass your opponent quickly as you dig down. You're still at a disadvantage and if your opponent doesn't mess up, you'll most probably lose, but you have that mechanic going for you in that situation. That's the reason I think of it as an "unintentional" comeback mechanic.
@jjh01harmon38
2 ай бұрын
I love it when people discover some tech for a game even after 25 years. Fighting games are so dope.
@KenDeepFGC
2 ай бұрын
the best comeback mechanic is me coming back to a new theory fighter video
@SaishuuKessen
2 ай бұрын
Just because I was sent this video, actually alpha ones is random, theres 3 different values of random factor IIRC you can get after you have lost your first round. So depending on which random factor you get when the match first starts, sometimes the losing player only gets a smidge difference sometimes they get a drastic, and its how ive showed off half life ken DP. You can not always do this DP, you have to get the right random factor in the match. Also not every move is effected. Some characters like sagat and some if not all of his moves have a steady state lets call it random factor and will always do the same no matter what the random value. Other characters as well have moves that are not effected or effected greatly. As well as auto mode once you lose your first round you get more free blocks. And again this goes back and forth. Another extreme example would be rose level 1 shadow to level 2 super. After she has lost her first round, depending on what random factor you can it can go up to being a instant kill move in itself.
@TheoryFighter
2 ай бұрын
Ah, thank you for the clarification
@jpnakashima1224
2 ай бұрын
This is fascinating
@espicelmecanicodecombustio1632
2 ай бұрын
clayton the goat
@Micha-Hil
2 ай бұрын
Now I wanna hear your reasoning for your comeback alignment chart. What's lawful, what's evil, etc
@ethankairos5498
2 ай бұрын
I never thought I'd see Brood War mentioned on this channel. Your content is the gift that keeps on giving
@Hack--rz1io
2 ай бұрын
There's a phenomenon in Melee we call "Marthritis" which I don't think was intentional but is an interesting comparison. Marth has a lot of really good confirms in melee to get kills but as your opponent builds up damage you lose some of them rendering them very hard to kill past a certain threshold because you have to kill of a stray hit instead
@JaDX243
2 ай бұрын
If I had a nickels for every time a fighting game youtube essayist tried to sell me on starcraft, I'd have 2 nickels
@coreyhaynes7951
2 ай бұрын
Core-A?
@theflashfan3234
2 ай бұрын
Slightly off-topic, but that last line about looking outside of our genre is something that can be applied for so many of aspects of FGs, from gameplay mechanics to monetization practices, to the sense of community. Golden nugget of wisdom from this video. There's a lot of great innovations and ideas that can be implemented to make our genre better, that just goes under our radars simply because we're not aware of what contemporary games outside our genre are doing.
@GuilesGarden
2 ай бұрын
*How have I not gotten video suggestion from this channel. Insane. Love this!*
@pochocho8225
2 ай бұрын
I literally just look at your channel and a minute later the video manifest this is perfection
@BadoorSNK
2 ай бұрын
So if I understand it, the comeback mechanic in StarCraft is essentially the fact that the losers smaller army becomes easier to manage, which is like not an overt comeback feature, but simply one that comes from the nature of the game. I think that might be hard to replicate in a game but I think Ring outs in Virtua Fighter (& I suppose SoulCalibur but I’m more familiar with VF) sorta fits this. Normally you’re not in danger of a ring out in an open stage unless you’ve eaten a big combo with corner carry. & when you’re near the corner, generally the opponent has many ways to land a ring out and close out a round. You as the defender also have some options to ring them but they’re usually limited. There’s other stuff, like you’d be more prone to break throws that lead to a ring out (usually a forward break) since it’s more obvious. You also can read them trying to use circular & half circular attacks that keep you near the edge, rather that let you evade out of the way. In the end, both players can win with a single interaction, it’s just that generally the RPS favors the attacker that’s facing the edge, rather than the defender, altho the dire-ness of the situation on the defender end can kinda make reads easier than in other instances. I hope this kinda fits your comeback mechanic criteria.
@Wiziliz
Ай бұрын
Ring outs are underrated, able to be so fun. First Real Bout is the most fun, largely cause of how a comeback is always possible with the right play, without being a comeback mechanic
@AuntBibby
2 ай бұрын
in a less-competitive more-casual environment, when one player wins way more than another player, it can be very painful for that second player, so personally i think "dull" comeback mechanics that straight-up buff the losing player are nice in that context. i just dont want ppl to feel like shit just becuz they arent as good at the game. in a competitive environment, i agree, "dull" comeback mechanics that straight-up buff the losing player _get in the way of fairness._
@BenjaminGlatt
2 ай бұрын
That's why every home console fighting game in existence has a handicap mechanic for couch play. Your 8-year-old nephew doesn't have to be good to beat you when his hits deal 3× normal damage and yours do 0.5.
@wavesofbabies
2 ай бұрын
I think getting inspiration for comeback mechanics from outside sources (even outside of video games!) is a great idea, but also I unfortunately don't think there's much we can plumb in this area from StarCraft. Unlike StarCraft, which has an infinite skill ceiling with infinite optimization due to its infinite level of control, fighting games are very rigid. Jumps follow predictable arcs, moves have consistent frame data, and very rarely are there physics added to anything in the game that could cause chaos. There is only so much room for execution and optimization before game sense and strategy become more important to winning. With StarCraft, the growing inoptimization of being more powerful, having more units, of being ahead is really hard to replicate in fighting games because of that rigidity, that predictability. There just aren't enough things to tweak in a fighting game to provide that growing complexity of being ahead. You can't make frame data change to be more strict as that would make the game feel bad to play, for example. Similarly, changing movement, hitboxes, and hurtboxes makes the whole game less predictable and a nightmare for players to wrap their head around. There are games that have tried to make it more complex for the winner, sure. Fist of the North Star made longer combos have more extreme gravity, but that system was broken and abused and is now what enables the infinites in that game. Jefailey in Divekick might be the best example of this working. Where his head grows bigger with each win, changing his jump to be more floaty and his hurtbox to be bigger. But that isn't in relation to another player and how they are doing, just in relation to how many rounds you have won. Even if you are down 4-3, your head is still going to be at its 2nd biggest size and likely be at a disadvantage (except in the mirror). It has just been found that removing restrictions (KoF raising max metre when you lose a character) or giving better options or combos (Ultras in SF4 or xfactor) just are easier to implement and have a better record on working in the game. I'm down for games to experiment, of course, but I think it's a design problem that requires a lot of out of the box thinking to even approach.
@calb6109
2 ай бұрын
Theres Garou which allowed you to choose where in your healthbar you wanted to have an extra move unlocked, among other things. That could be your comeback mechanic if you want to.
@buzzlightyer2948
2 ай бұрын
i like how despite the heavy metal background music, this guy's voice is actually very calming
@AzadAli46994
2 ай бұрын
Every TheoryFighter Video that comes out, gets downloaded instantly so I can watch it over and over, even while travelling. I love the quality of these videos!
@randomhajile
2 ай бұрын
I like to think this was mandated by zero/alpha's aim to make StreetFighter more accessible to the public after expert players on sf2/ SuperTurbos went in on them in those games, hence air blocking flashkicks and fireballs, and this comeback mechanic! and removed in alpha3 as capcom deemed their final alpha game.
@DanTheMeek
2 ай бұрын
I generally like the alpha 2 (and 1) come back mechanic, just wish it was less weighted toward/against characters based on how many hits their attacks do. That complaint aside, I really appreciate that the buff is small enough that not every match between comparable opponents is bound to have a third round, but it does subtly nudge the odds. Unlike some come back mechanics, it doesn't really feel like it allows a behind player to steal a round because they landed a yolo ultra or whatever, you've still gotta more or less out play your opponent, it just means that if victory or defeat comes down to the last pixels of health, the magic pixel will favor the player who lost round 1. Again, its got flaws, but generally speaking I think it was a good mechanic that I'm disappointed got abandoned for more impactful come back mechanics.
@superbro6413
2 ай бұрын
Today I learned that people are clicking the ground so much in StarCraft because the AI pathing was crap 💀
@willo90li
2 ай бұрын
didnt expect the secret to all that insane apm is because they have to literally fight the game itself to get an edge to win 😭
@ShadowriverUB
2 ай бұрын
@@willo90li That apm can be used else where so if not that it would been used for bettet menagement, apm always been e-pen measure you could brag about how fast you are. Apm actully is the thing because replay system where actions are recorded with timestambs allowing to measure how much actions you making, how fast you are.
@mollywantshugs5944
2 ай бұрын
My favorite example of a comeback mechanic is from Puzzle Strike (deckbuilder card game that’s Puzzle Fighter themed) where being almost dead lets you draw more cards and lob more and bigger attacks. Note: you die by ending the turn with 10+ gems in your pile, and you attack by throwing gems in your pile at the other person’s. The neat part is that in practice you’re incentivized to keep your pile dangerously close to full as much of the game you can get away with, which results in a game where a big part of the challenge (and fun) is being as greedy as you can get away with being, but no further. Combine this with how Puzzle Strike has a similar dance between aggression, defense, and economy to what you see in Starcraft and you get a deceptively hype game that looks really easy to master but isn’t
@BenjaminGlatt
2 ай бұрын
I'm watching this video, thinking, "StarCraft's comeback mechanic is that the better you're playing the harder it is to play."
@bleepmaster23
2 ай бұрын
I'm sorry when do you build up your super meter from getting hti in ST. In A2 sure, but ST? That's not correct.
@markomanx
2 ай бұрын
Right. The first time I heard that people called Supers in ST a comeback mechanic it was weird because you don't get meter from getting hit. Not sure where that misconception came from... and why it persists.
@motmontheinternet
2 ай бұрын
Supers in ST are the original comeback mechanic because they reduce the number of correct decisions you need to make to win the round. Let's say I am winning the round and have made two correct decisions that have landed me two combos or a jumpin followed by a throw or what-have-you. It's looking like one more good decision from me will win me the round. My health is still high because at best you'd done a little bit of chip damage to me, but you have built up a super. It's possible you can win the round by just landing moves on me twice because supers do so much damage. Especially since supers are often safe and invincible so there's less counterplay to them than other moves. When measured based on number of correct decisions needed to win a round, this qualifies as a comeback mechanic. The player who has already made two correct decisions and merely needs to make one more doesn't really benefit much from having also built up a super as he is already only one more good hit away from winning. In reality, the main difference between the above description and a Street Fighter 4 ultra is that SF4 guarantees you at least one ultra per round before you lose. The fact that they can also be used offensively doesn't mean they aren't comeback mechanics, you can use an ultra offensively, too. It's still a comeback mechanic. The comeback mechanic factor for supers in a random given game dies off when the game incorporates them differently. 3S gives out supers in a more measured way where usually they're just part of your BnBs and they don't do nearly as much damage or stun unless there's a character specific archetype that is built for that, and the supers just aren't as generically powerful when used in a vacuum as the way ST did it.
@bleepmaster23
2 ай бұрын
@@motmontheinternet I don’t see the super meter in ST being a comeback mechanic because it doesn’t reward being hit. It’s just pure aggression you can focus attack fireballs all day with sf4 and then hit a few ultras and win, similar shit for Rose in a2. You keep taking specials in ST you aren’t coming back from anything unless you build meter super quickly.
@hefdef9961
2 ай бұрын
@@bleepmaster23 the concept of what a "comback mechanic" is has changed over the years. That used to be the definition when ST came out
@themustardthe
2 ай бұрын
I thought this was gonna be the roll cancel video, but this is great too
@mashtonish
2 ай бұрын
showing that muppet man at 6:30 when talking about inefficiencies , lol
@derjahgalgion
2 ай бұрын
There was a guy from Argentina that was expert in SFA2 and he had a feeling about this damage output is alpha 2. I cant remember his name because Im talking about +15 years ago but he even had a website... Anyone remember him? Very close to the mugen community ...Great video!
@fluttergust
2 ай бұрын
Interesting, I noticed the same with other arcade games like Daytona, the rubberbanding is crazy, you can always catchup most of the time even if you are driving badly. Might be more of a arcade era design choice to make players think they are "closely matched" so they will keep spending? Also on the starcraft example, seems like "micromanaging"=="high skill ceiling", not that I refute it, but somehow doesn't sit well with me...
@Jin-lp5lt
2 ай бұрын
I was going crazy the last couple of days trying to remember which old fighting games had mechanics like this I don't even think alpha 2 was the one I was thinking of. Crazy shit like this flies under the radar
@thecoolest0002
2 ай бұрын
I will always advocate no comeback mechanics on a game-mechanics level, but on a per-character basis, that’s a different story.
@calb6109
2 ай бұрын
Oh shit that is smart, you could have comeback factors that fit the character or maybe even hinder them further if you wanna be brutal about it..for example Ryu gets a defense boost while Ken gets a damage buff, to more elaborate ones like getting new moves like in Garou.
@juniperrodley9843
2 ай бұрын
I swing the other way TBH. Giving some characters comeback mechanics but not others makes balancing those comeback mechanics *very* difficult.
@Stinkyremy
2 ай бұрын
Jason in MKX had a variation witha comeback mechanic, where he would litterally come back from the dead lol So did devora in MK 11, as a bug.
@sleepofgc
2 ай бұрын
*Gill has entered the chat.*
@dionepon
2 ай бұрын
Street fighter and StarCraft in the same video?! What an age to be alive.
@airthrowDBT
2 ай бұрын
It's incredibly impressive to me that Valle could even feel the difference of one jab's worth damage extra on a CC, attribute it to losing round 1, in the arcade. That reminds me of Mattsun claiming that he counts odd and even hits while playing the game so he knows when he can block after the first hit of Ryu's Shinkuu in ST.
@BrianM_3rd
2 ай бұрын
0:07 Oh my god don't you dare tell me that wavy Ryu is a Street Fighter Flash Collab reference, now that's a super deep cut lmao.
@Apalapan97
2 ай бұрын
knew it!
@gonzalotorres5282
2 ай бұрын
YOU WIN! *PLAP!* _FURRFECT...!_ *seizures*
@sleepofgc
2 ай бұрын
I think Tekken's rage actually adapted this idea (and Ultras) pretty well. Attaching the buff to the health bar instead of the player that lost a round first even kept it fair.
@shatterthineekey
2 ай бұрын
"what makes this bad is that by losing a round you are buffed in a way that does not require you to land a specific attack" as a vlov main i find this to offend me personally
@hijster479
2 ай бұрын
Personally I think all one size fits all comeback mechanics are pretty bad. They'll inevitably end up benefiting some characters more than others. Even something like Burst can be pretty polarizing, as strong neutral characters benefit from the reset regardless of who bursts. As much as people complained about them I think ultras were a great system, as they were more character specific. Sure there were some obnoxious Ultras, but there was some effort balance them from character to character.
@SomeDudeOtaku
2 ай бұрын
I have been making a fighting card game called Deadly Hands and this aspect has been on my mind quite a bit during the creation. Your attacks make up a deck of cards and your super is at the bottom of the deck, so if you do long combos, the quicker you get your super. This means the player who hits the most gets their super quicker. To balance this I have made it so the player that gets hit gains a Skill Point which can be used to do character unique mechanics or to do EF specials. I haven't tested the game enough to see if this works out the balance but I do think it gives an interesting dynamic to combo structure.
@WHATISUTUBE
2 ай бұрын
Its crazy to see Alex and he isn't old and fat. Looking Kinda Enrique Iglesias there
@poeticider
2 ай бұрын
I feel the argument you make about StarCrafts skill ceiling as a comeback mechanic could easily be applied to the sf3 parry system Afterall you cannot die in sf3 as long as you parry/shimmy everything
@bmjoaco2339
2 ай бұрын
it's nothing like it, in starcraft if you're winning you have more army, and having more army makes it more difficult to control. parrying is the same no matter the state of the game
@juniperrodley9843
2 ай бұрын
@@bmjoaco2339 On the contrary, parrying becomes more difficult in a higher stakes situation. Even the best players aren't *fully* immune to mental pressure, they're just very, very resistant.
@Kasaaz
2 ай бұрын
Constraints breed creativity.
@Stinkyremy
2 ай бұрын
Nice that you mentioned starcraft. I personally think out of all the games ever created, RTS multiplayer games are the hardest games to play. Then fighting games. Mainly because like what you said in the vid, the skill cap is infinite based on the opponents skill.
@rickdavis32
2 ай бұрын
That cover reminds me of the movie cyborg with jvd staring down tbe badguy.
@Brick_Eater_
2 ай бұрын
I thought this going to be about Shin Akuma in the SNES version, lol
@Albert-lj5jb
2 ай бұрын
I had heard something like this many years ago, but instead of it being +1 damage on all hits, it was something like only dp motion specials did more damage
@Wladislav
2 ай бұрын
During the long Starcraft bit, all I could do was wonder what bro was waffling about. I assume you meant to say that _the bigger your army, the harder it is to control and vice versa,_ but that's not particularly related to Brood War. Although of course it _is_ accentuated in games with higher micromanagement demands and more plates to keep spinning. In an RTS, as your army gets smaller it gets easier to finely control, but how does this relate to fighting games? One could argue fighting games actually do the opposite of this. The game gets harder the lower your health bar is, due to the increased risk of losing each tactic entails and your options being more limited. But at the same time, having fewer resources and options (both health and whatever other meter/resource the game is using) can arguably simplify and lower the mental stack. In that sense, fighting games actually _do_ have this type of built-in RTS-style rubberbanding. It's a bit of a "back against the wall" effect. (Sometimes literally if you're stuck in a corner.) A step beyond this would be like the move execution window being tighter the more health you have, and easier (to the point of 1-button supers or simple combos like SF6's Modern controls) the lower your health bar is, but that kind of dynamic variance seems like it would have the opposite effect to me.
@preamstrikbiz0
2 ай бұрын
This is why when it comes to the alpha series , a lot may prefer alpha 2 over alpha 3 simply due to the better Custom Combo chains and like the video mentions the +1 damage the following round
@testdriveph
2 ай бұрын
I love Starcraft, and I apply the need to be calm and decisive plus the skill needed to do well with my work. Honestly, I'm a better group leader because of it.
@captainmalice
2 ай бұрын
I’m confused what was the comeback mechanic in StarCraft 2?
@eddieferguson2638
2 ай бұрын
Its that your army becomes bigger when you're winning, and because you can only select 12 units at a time, it very naturally becomes harder and harder to manage your army.
@eddieferguson2638
2 ай бұрын
Not a mechanic so much as a side effect of the core systems of the game.
@captainmalice
2 ай бұрын
@@eddieferguson2638 alright thanks. I am curious as to how something like that can translate into a fighting game?
@Zuxtron
2 ай бұрын
@@eddieferguson2638 I had to rewatch that section to get it, but it's an interesting way to view it. Every time your enemy kills some of your units, that's one less thing occupying your brain's bandwidth, making mechanical execution easier.
@julianmunoz7836
2 ай бұрын
Same here, the video wasn't very clear about it. But as people said, how path finding of many units could translate to a 1 vs 1 game?
@SaturnnsStash
2 ай бұрын
I really love the idea of a kill being harder than just landing a hit on a low hp opponent. Id love to theorize with others about what this could be since it feels pretty underexplored for fighting games. There definitely should be a way to kill off stray hits if enough happen, but also some other mechanic could be really interesting. off the top of my head id imagine something like Guilty Gear's "guts" where some characters get more defense the lower their health gets. What if guts became MUCH better, like your last 10% of hp makes you take 50% less damage, something extreme, but then landing a heavy counterhit combo, certain command grabs, wall break with super, or a combo when the enemy's RISK is cranked Ignores guts defense. This way a low HP character is harder to kill instead of easier, despite still being close to death. And both players still have to deal with it at some point, the winning player is rewarded by getting to that point sooner, and having more chances to just widdle down the health instead. Or like maybe at low hp in a game like SF6, getting hit makes you take 80% less damage, but you lose more drive guage when hit (only slightly more) and to secure a kill you need to DI them into a wall in burnout which instakills, use a super, or a punish counter combo Obviously neither of these are perfect but i love chatting game design and its fun thinking up concepts
@calb6109
2 ай бұрын
Smash Bros already made this concept pretty well with its percent system and smash DI, I dont see why more traditional fighting couldnt experiment with this as well, for example Strive's wallbreak system could be tied to something like this, which would make the mechanic several times better.
@SaturnnsStash
2 ай бұрын
@@calb6109 it definitely could be interesting!! Imagining a world where you get like SUPER tanky in the last few percentages of health, there's no chip damage kills, and wallbreak instakills in that low percent range. No clue how much better or worse it would be but the desperate final struggles between two players magic pixel healthbars would definitely be exciting
@mechadeka
2 ай бұрын
I feel like I played some old 90s fighting game once where you could only finish an opponent with a special or super. Can't remember what it was, though.
@explosivehotdogs
2 ай бұрын
everyone should know that Samurai Shodown invented the concept
@Cloudpaul
2 ай бұрын
CvS2 or Garou is the way to go. Choose where your comeback goes, even if CvS2 is just 1-1--3 for the most part.
@Lemantem
2 ай бұрын
I love Alpha 2.
@IAmEnormous
2 ай бұрын
I like Tekken 8's gray health system :)
@Kasaaz
2 ай бұрын
Young Logan looks so loud. I don't know why that is the adjective I came up with, but it's true!
@SebastianVazquezFerrero
2 ай бұрын
5:14; I'd argue that the greatest competitive game ever created is chess.
@Zwyrx_Hgqfyggz
2 ай бұрын
Comeback mechanics, like many fighter mechanics in general need to find a steady balance of being actually helpful and not wiling your ass too much.
@Ryusuta
2 ай бұрын
Ah, awesome. A cool video about hidden mechanics in Alpha 2. Entire second half of the video: "So anyway, in Starcraft Brood Wars..."
@TheoryFighter
2 ай бұрын
You're damn right
@dantediss1
2 ай бұрын
Ok seriously, how did it take 25 years to figure this out... Chun Li's combo alone takes a massive Chunk as opposed to the normal. Would take an hour to prove this,.. not 25 years
@bobbyrawsknz
2 ай бұрын
I dont remember clicking on a starcraft video.... ?
@ShadyHitchhiker
2 ай бұрын
I've never understood the casual FGC audiences issue with comeback mechanics. I've played in plenty of tournaments against top players, where i got access to the comeback mechanic and they don't because they're so much better than me. They still always win, but the comeback mechanic gives me one tool they don't have and a tiny glimmer of false hope that i can win I'll take every advantage i can get, because i need it
@StrangeCoincidence
2 ай бұрын
ah, but what metal track is playing throughout the video?
@stilmaho
2 ай бұрын
The more I hear about competitive StarCraft the less interesting it becomes honestly. Btw every street fighter game aside from SF6 has a common comeback mechanic that is never brought up when discussing comeback mechanics. Back in the original SF2 the devs wanted to add a mechanic to help players who are behind and came up with stun. The more health the players have more relevant stun becomes. So the player with low health doesn’t need to fear stun while they can use it to their advantage for a comeback. Just watch some of Daigo’s famous comebacks in SFV and you will understand what I mean.
@saaah707
2 ай бұрын
Re StarCraft I think he put it in a confusing way, it's not that the game does anything to hurt you, it's just that a larger army is more difficult to control because you've got more stuff to control Make no mistake, you definitely want to have the bigger army
@stilmaho
2 ай бұрын
@@saaah707 I understand what is going on but "path finding is ass so you need to master how to navigate around it to be competitive" doesn't make me wanna play or watch the game
@misternobodysixtynine
2 ай бұрын
Do you guys believe, in Joe Hendry?
@reyreyes7285
2 ай бұрын
No lie alpha 2 was my favorite Street fighter game. Don't blame you at all. 👍🏽
@pyrope5454
2 ай бұрын
I’ve seen it all… Someone actually defending bad pathing.
@Kasaaz
2 ай бұрын
I do wonder sometimes if it was added in Alpha 1, and basically forgotten about by the time of Alpha 2. Or at least not considered in the context of Custom Combos. Was it intended to the work the way it did in Alpha 2? I'd say no. People forget the turnaround times on these things.
@speakertrees
2 ай бұрын
I still play sc2 but bw is deeper. respect u for dis
@owencmyk
2 ай бұрын
Honestly I think the Street Fighter mechanic *could* be good if it was tweaked slightly. Because in theory, having every hit buffed by a flat amount would make you prioritize combos with more hits even if they would otherwise be sub-optimal, and thus could add to the decision making. However, I don't think it really has enough of an impact currently to do that, so as it stands it's very 1-dimensional
@voidmain2453
2 ай бұрын
The worst comeback mechanic to ever be created was X factor in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3
@NIMPAK1
2 ай бұрын
What happens for double knockdowns and timeouts?
@mrpinguimninja
2 ай бұрын
Was that young logan-sama in the beginning of the video?
@mariocraft3067
2 ай бұрын
It almost seems like you’re using kof footage to show an example of a comeback mechanic, but I don’t know if or what it could be referring to.
@hefdef9961
2 ай бұрын
you get extra stocks of super the less guys you have alive
@leeentertainmentchannel247
2 ай бұрын
Just like Alex Im calling it now then. Tekken 7 had a come back mechanic that has been taken out in tekken 8. I dare anyone to try and prove me wrong
@pandabearmadness6263
2 ай бұрын
You make such great interesting videos. That I have hours of enjoyment.thank you so much for them. Please have a lunch on me
@bfFAN221
2 ай бұрын
Removing chip-damage kills kill a game's gravity..
@FlibTheBard
2 ай бұрын
Flash is the GOAT
@Apalapan97
2 ай бұрын
0:07 is that ryu from the SF Flash collab?
@colocho545
2 ай бұрын
Welcome back
@deathcatthor
2 ай бұрын
Peak fgc content
@gionataspiniella
Ай бұрын
Hi can you not make a video about Alpha 2 or SxT?
@DeLisi.
2 ай бұрын
Bro wtf this is crazy.
@retired-io5wz
2 ай бұрын
insanity
@LostChildOfTime
2 ай бұрын
What if you're playing 3 out of 5?
@squilliam0909
2 ай бұрын
I don’t think you get meter in ST from being hit. I think it’s actually one of the few Street Fighter games where that’s note true.
@r1konTheAutomator
2 ай бұрын
Yay!!
@BakMei1003
2 ай бұрын
This mechanic started in SF2
@NiGHTcapD
2 ай бұрын
What's that whole alignment chart?
@leecherboy
2 ай бұрын
I wanna know too! Top middle is USF4's Ultras, Center is SFxTekken's Pandora, and Down right is UMvC3's X-Factor (pictured: Vergil's), but the rest...?
@TheoryFighter
2 ай бұрын
Rubbish the editor made it, it's just random, wouldn't think about it too much
@Stinkyremy
2 ай бұрын
@@TheoryFighter was clearly meant to be a joke with wipes in bottom right.
@TalicZealot
2 ай бұрын
flash would have done 2 extra damage per hit in alpha 2
@ladyfarah
2 ай бұрын
I wonder if that's why they put alpha 3 online?
@theedwardian
2 ай бұрын
Street Fighter Secrets 🙊
@sini_sv
2 ай бұрын
Alpha 2 is the SF game I played more in the arcades than any other SF game. When it came out, there were guys who used to lose the first round on purpose, so they knew this secret for all these years! 😅
@alex_oiman
2 ай бұрын
i personally hate comeback mechanics. the only cm i need is the possibility to come back.
@bmjoaco2339
2 ай бұрын
I saw starcraft and I had to click
@arbitrary0000
2 ай бұрын
I just don't see the point in comeback mechanics at all. I understand it's not very good if a lot of time is spent in situations where the player at disadvantage has very little chance of making a comeback - the match just "dragging on" when it's practically over - and giving the player a better chance with comeback mechanics can mitigate that. But I think if you have that problem, fundamentally it's a problem of the game allowing too big health gaps to exists to begin with, i.e. the characters have too much health (or the damage is too low, same thing). That or the player with life deficit has not enough tools to open up the player with the life advantage (offense being too weak). I think it's an unnecessarily convoluted and perverse way of fixing the problem with something like "ok normally getting hit is bad, but it can also be sorta good because you get this mitigating buff thing"... I think the only positive aspect is that for spectators that don't understand the mechanics at all, it increases the amount of superficially impressive looking comebacks. But for those who are aware of the mechanics, it rather increases the amount of comebacks that feel like robbery. Now if you have really internalized the mechanics, this isn't necessarily the case (except to the extent the comeback mechanic makes the outcome of the match actually more random which might or might not be the case depending on the exact comeback mechanic), because you have just accepted the mechanics as a part of the game and if you are playing around them worse than your opponent then that's on you. But even then, they are basically just neutral by default, though of course you might enjoy the extra strategic complexity they provide - but you don't need to add a comeback mechanic to increase mechanic complexity. The only advantage that I can think of that is specific to comeback mechanics is to add some superficial fake hype to comebacks for clueless spectators. The players in my experience don't seem to really like them because intuitively, it feels like they "reward the worse player" because you get them for getting hit which is what you're supposed to avoid in the game. Objectively, like I said they do that only if they make the outcome of the match more random, but the subjective player experience is important as well.
@danielsjogren4496
2 ай бұрын
You are the goat
@kaiserbts8007
2 ай бұрын
Brother whal
@vanillaice887
2 ай бұрын
So... no cc ?? Alpha 1 is the purist special ?? Alpha 1 really got kicked in the ballz early. It aint as bad as people think. It's almost a chaiwaneese/russian edition of alpha. Birdie has a different jumping medium kick. They changed it for a2. The hitbox for it is rad! Drive people, nuts ! 😆
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