First time I see someone taking the time and spending a lot of money and resources to help us see the big picture. Fascinating that a lot of chips from the same batch can sound differently. Todays Chips may have better tolerances and variations but I am sure small differences exist.
@robertozanetti7707
2 күн бұрын
I did the same tests as you, about 7/8 years ago, the chips I preferred were the Taiwanese double-crowned chips that were much more transparent and richer in the treble range, although sometimes I found chips without markings that sounded remarkable the important thing is to always test in pairs on a CD like the Sony ESD337, which actually used a pair........
@coffinlin9244
2 күн бұрын
Hi Gabby, thank you for sharing! As far as I know, those chips Looks identical are refurbished from old stocks, most salvaged from used equipments or a wholesale junk lot. This can explains why two identical S2 Chips can perform differently, because their “past life” were different 😅
@sbelyo
Күн бұрын
Thanks for doing that! It's nice to see real world tests. I too have no real way to measure so I measure with my ears.
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
Thank You Yup your ears are all you need for The TDA1541A Chip
@davestevens4193
18 сағат бұрын
I've actually had good luck purchasing DAC chips on eBay.
@AN-hz1fo
2 күн бұрын
Hi, thanks for sharing this great investigation (kudos, definitely lots of time, money, precision work and mental fuel) Could you possibly by any chance consider at some point investigate/add the parameters of chip package (top side) temperature (with and without heat sink) and their current consumption to your evaluation table ? Thanks again for the always great work and sharing it
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
I took a thermal scan of a few but not all As they were all similar within a couple degrees They got to 40 degrees Celsius fast within a min and to around 47 degrees after 10 min But the consumption is a good idea for next time I do this
@markatherton7848
Күн бұрын
I would have felt better about this testing if the process had been done twice, with a 3rd party randomly re sequencing the DACs at a mid point. The interesting point here is how far apart the two evaluations of the same part are - this is a quality measure of the audience. Also, it would be nice to store these parts on a grounded conductive surface (tin foil ?) and handled with some kind of ESD management. None of the latter will affect the sound, but may affect overall life.
@Stelios.Posantzis
2 күн бұрын
Very brave and surely a labour of love! Well done and thanks! I won't suggest paralleling chips then, seeing that you've already fried a few of them! However, do you plan on ever producing a balanced dac, i.e. a truly balanced design, in the digital domain? Also, are you planning to experiment with transformers in the I/V stage?
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
I already did a balanced Dac with my TD1 boards but it is very dependent on the TDA1541A chip quality and matching But plan on spending more time again once I have a bit more time I have tried both Ivan’s top Transformers and they are well respected transformers. To my ears in this TDA application The OPA 861 In a single no feed-back design produced a better sound.
@Stelios.Posantzis
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 Excellent! Thanks! I just watched it. It's the episode uploaded 3 weeks ago right? I didn't know you also had a website. Also I wasn't aware that there were Chinese-made chips out there. Are these just unlicensed clones? Do they actually exist or it is just a false rumour? With all the fuss about the TDA1541 going on for the last 30 or so years, one would think Philips would try to release another batch on the market. One has to wonder why they haven't. Even worse, one wonders why they have not come up with an improved version. After all the TDA1541 is a 16bit version of the TDA1540.
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
This was Released on Patreon a week ago. You definitely have a point. I almost feel like reaching out to Philips. I sometimes dream of a TdA1541G Then I wake up :)
@Stelios.Posantzis
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 It does happen all the time though. If not Philips, maybe some other company could buy the rights to reproduce (not the technology rights) and simply re-release it under their own name. Of course Phlips might not want to sell the DEM technology, if the patents on it have not expired, but that is another matter.
@doogee6157
Күн бұрын
Chip rolling is a thing. Keep an eye out for the white ceramic gold pin versions , these are the very best. Ceramic body chips are superior.
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
I have only seen a photo of a non A white one is there a White Ceramic A version any links you know of
@doogee6157
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 Sorry no, i have link for white ceramic gold pinned TDA1540. There so very rare. Tbh i have never seen equivalent TDA1541 but im sure they exist.
@AmazonasBiotop
2 күн бұрын
Interesting that it is possible to hear individual difference between chips!👍 That begs the question if it is detectable sonically differences between between all types of different chips? We know it is sonically differences is in the "simple" OP-amps so logical their have to be POTENTIALLY as great or greater differences between more complex chips.. Or? I mean if there is individual differences between the today produced ESS/AKM DAC chips.. (Yes, some may say that we have better and more consistent production lines. But remember that manufacturers is every day pushing them self to make the transistor smaller and smaller and struggle probably likewise as they did 1981.. And they also have new issues that comes with that.) Yes, I know that those chips is far from easy to swap out, but the question still persist.😂 OK if we conclude that ESS/AKM chips individually sounds different. Then set aside that other components on the board (may/probably) also influence the sound quality. Then there should be a sonically differences between two individual complete assembled DACs that are the same (model and brand) and coming from the same production line!🎉🤔 That then this little detail opens up questions, that when you buy for example a DAC. Then order two and return the one that is performing not that good as the other one??😅😂❤🤔 Thanks for the video! As seen it started a train of thought's.😂🎉
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
I like your Thinking, you have a god point or shall we say good thinking. :)🙂
@Douglas_Blake_579
Күн бұрын
While it is correct to notice that production variations, even among brand new genuine, chips is a very real thing. We have to appreciate that those variations will be remarkably small and will reduce in second and third production runs as the die and substrate architecture is improved. The far greater variable in listening tests is the human ear. Simply sitting in a slightly different (and I mean in millimetres) listening position can result in remarkable shifts in perceived audio quality. We must always be aware that we have two ears, listening from slightly different positions in the sound field and there are going to be cancellation and summing effects because of that. Here's a video that demonstrates the most common of these problems quite nicely ... kzitem.info/news/bejne/tW6Y03WJqYeWm2Usi=R_RW7knxVBmGDUeI The problem is that we cannot cleanly eliminate the many many variables in listening tests so subjective impressions will always be both highly variable and suspect.
@johnsnowlow1883
2 күн бұрын
Hi Gabby, could you share the chip you bought that is decent and the price is attractive (and from where) thanks Learnt from the video that you are selling the chips, please advise price . Thanks
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
Sadly most sold out as I was very careful where to buy from I avoided buyers that seem to have hundred of them. That shows as most except 2 were actually bad chips.
@johnnystoka6625
2 күн бұрын
How can your TDA1541A S2 dual crowns be S2 if they are not even made in Taiwan and not have Taiwan stamped on them .
@user-od9iz9cv1w
2 күн бұрын
My thought exactly. Looks like a fake. I have the real S2, and S1, R1 and normal. To my ear the S1, R1 and standard all sound very similar. The S2 is easy to differentiate. It is just much more smooth and analogue sounding. Not everyone likes it. I think it is perfect and feel fortunate to have one.
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
as I mentioned in the Video The crowns are likely fake but interesting that one was Perfect and one was almost bad.
@johnnystoka6625
Күн бұрын
@@user-od9iz9cv1w I like the last batches of S2 with N1 on the description receipt they sound very similar to S2 crowns though it's pretty hard to differentiate S2's especially after DEM clocking.
@johnnystoka6625
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 Yes I know . Though I thought you might of known that S2 crowns only come with the Taiwan print and dual crowns printed on them .
@johnnystoka6625
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 There are also mystery Chinese sold and most likely Taiwanese made TDA1541A S2 with a bizarre thick printing of TDA1541A S2 and are considered to be like Crowns . They most likely kept on printing them after Philips cancelled their manufacturing there . My friend bought a few and they seemed pretty good and they were definitely not shaved and rebadged older TDA1541A or fakes . They were identical to the TDA1541A S2 in appearance except for the bizarre thick printing in a bronze gold type colour .
@222zxx
2 күн бұрын
If chip is excessivelly overheated during desoldering, it will be damaged. So it is better to desolder it yourself.
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
Totally agree unless you know the person desoldering and if they have good equipment and expertise to do it With my Hako desoldering tool they come out easy
@ConorHanley
Күн бұрын
I have one of those chips in an old Philips CD player that doesn't work, of course. Are they still competitive with modern chips?
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
Then you are lucky yes they are even better
@ConorHanley
Күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 Oh, great I suppose if I can do something with it.
@lupoal4113
2 күн бұрын
ok... but at the end of the story we are talkin about a very old chip with serious limits in frequency and resolution especially when considering the every day more and more common specs of file available from streaming... ok I know it is still plenty of 16/44 but... does it still make sense to spend that amount of money on something that born already old?
@Angellus502
2 күн бұрын
I have a PCM1794 dac thats 15 years old and the chips are much older. It sounds as good if not better than the new Gustard A26, not as hyper focused detailed but very close, more musical, better sound stage. I was thinking the same thing "after 15 years its time to upgrade", now im thinking why did I bother, So yes, the old chips still sound very good, and in some ways worse is better
@Mikexception
2 күн бұрын
May be the point is that whole technical developement is driven by sells and sells re driven by popularity and popularity needs portability and in effect miniaturization . This is the reason why new chips were developed with small energy consumption and dimensions and due to 90% earphone reproduction and low prize of smartphones I would expect no better then 1541 quality. . I used few CD players - portable rised my doubts , original japanese Onkyo with other DAC found just no problem but I wasn't fully amazed wuth any CD, and when I bought Bang Olufsen with TDA 1541 since 10 years I do not even think about any issue each CD amazes in total. If something could be 1% better it needs be already analog
@TheodoreBreaux
2 күн бұрын
According to the Dutch Audio Classics website, all real S2s (double crown) are from the final 1997 Taiwan run and did not exist before then. None have the stripe on the left. They all have "TAI WAN" where the stripe normally appears. It seems many chips (both real and fake) have been restamped with a double crown, which is not surprising. The TDA1541A was produced in Belgium/Holland (1988-91) and the USA (1991-94). Unless one actually pulls one from an old piece of gear, it's a crapshoot. There are just too many restamps and fakes out there.
@Gabster1
Күн бұрын
Very well said there is a lot of crown stamping Some are plain chips and can sound different from one to the other. The moral of the story is to listen 👂
@mk1classic
2 күн бұрын
Where can I find the electrical measurements on the different chips? The SQ differences must be visual in the measurements, or a there must be trend for what sounds good or bad.
@Pete.across.the.street
2 күн бұрын
What measurements would you use to determine sound quality?
@mk1classic
2 күн бұрын
@@Pete.across.the.street That is the question, but to determine that we need measurements and listening feedback. Here we only got the subjective feedback. I would say the more measurement the better. But it looks like the harmonic response from single and multitone are where you can start to see differences in the system. How does the "forest of trees" look like in comparison etc. But the more date the better, then we hopefully can extrapolate what Gabster thinks is a good or excellent sounding DAC.
@Pete.across.the.street
Күн бұрын
@@mk1classic you can't measure sound quality off an electrical signal. You can measure differences in the signal, whether it's good or not, you have to listen.
@Douglas_Blake_579
Күн бұрын
Generally a search for the part number plus "Data Sheet" will find the manufacturer's specifications for most chips. For example: "TDA1541 data sheet" Will find a PDF file with detailed information about the chip, including pin functions, timing, limits and internal details.
@Douglas_Blake_579
Күн бұрын
@@Pete.across.the.street The main ones are frequency response, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion and crosstalk. If you have a chip with 10hz to 20khz frequency response within 1db, less than 0.1% distortion and channel isolation greater than 40db... it is almost certain to sound fully transparent and detailed.
@lo_1
2 күн бұрын
Does the possibly fakes run in simultanous Mode?
@Gabster1
2 күн бұрын
They all did run in sim mode but not sure if I have any bad fakes Maybe they can reproduce good ones now no Idea if they are that is still my unanswered question maybe someone knows and can tell us
@lo_1
2 күн бұрын
@@Gabster1 I believe that too, the pins looks incredebly new on this China Chips.But if they work well why not.
@GWorxOz
2 күн бұрын
Gabby?
@jacquesw8725
2 күн бұрын
Chips 9 and 10 are identical by label, so now I am wondering how this could be? You rate #10 chip better in SQ! Hmmmm 🤔
@tubecollector100
2 күн бұрын
every chip was tested after manufacture, because you couldn't make chips that accurately in the early days. and they were divided into groups, because otherwise you would have to use too many different codes. It is therefore very possible that there are differences within the group.
@AmazonasBiotop
2 күн бұрын
@@jacquesw8725 Yes, remember back in the days and presumably today also. We know that some computer CPU chips is "better" and can handle over clocking better that shows us that there is individual differences between chips coming out if the same production line.. So there is never 100% the same. And it is more obvious on CPU chips when we can find and test the individual maximum clockspeed under stress test conditions. Hope this helps a little about the understanding. 👍
@Mikexception
2 күн бұрын
@@AmazonasBiotop Most people do not relize that DAC chip is digital but only in part. Of course in optimum case digital is always repeatable .But final stage must be analog and in analog 100% repeatability is never the case - we may think so but our measurements in compare to to hearing sense. are deeply not accurate
@AmazonasBiotop
2 күн бұрын
@@Mikexception Yes, then it is yet another reason to buy always two of the exact same HiFi component. (Or compare two identical individual sets somehow, to determine which to choose.) When the analog side is also not 100% the same. And return the lesser good sounding.. 🤔👍
@Mikexception
2 күн бұрын
@@AmazonasBiotop Choice is up to us- I would not categorise because bad digital is bad and bad analog is bad. And good ones are good. But in theory I expect digital cannot beat analog because is created from analog and finaly returns to analog. Reality is as is and in say 85% important is used final reproducirng system
@paulpaulzadeh6172
2 күн бұрын
You have accent , where are you come from ? It isn't American 😮😮
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