I have never used a biscuit in a joint. But, with the biscuit at the center-line, it takes the least amount of the load in bending. You might say the biscuit is least helpful strength-wise at the center of the board. Since your experiment is primarily bending, the "top is being compressed" and "Bottom is being stretched" seeing the greatest loads. The center gets very little of either. I would be interested to see if biscuits were placed closer to the end, would that make a difference? Also if you could "pull" the boards from the end, making a tension test. That test would be a little harder to set up, but I would come back to watch if you tried! Nice video.
@reversegreenpotato
7 жыл бұрын
Good point. I'm also curious about whether adding stress/flexing/fatigue to the joint first, or varying the moisture content in the wood might make biscuits or dowels perform differently... i.e. replicating wear and tear on regular furniture joints over the seasons. This would be even more annoying to test though :-)
@virtualfather
7 жыл бұрын
Going on what you stated would a glue up with 2 biscuits an 1/8 of an inch from each surface would be a way to dramatically increase strength
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Jeremy Fielding thanks Jeremy. Yeah they are really good points. May do a follow up on this one day and try them in different positions. Will also see if I can think of a way of rigging some sort of "pull" test set up
@davidbosch246
5 жыл бұрын
The method of your test is showing the tensile strength of the joint. The intended purpose of biscuits is to increase the shear strength of the joint. You might want to try your test again with the board held still on each end and the load applied in the middle to create a realistic comparison.
@sa00287
4 жыл бұрын
Have you ever seen a bending moment diagram? What you have said makes no sense. Shear is constant in a built-in single point loaded beam.
@MaydaysCustomWoodworks
4 жыл бұрын
@@sa00287 he might have used the wrong technical wording but his point is correct. The way this was tested isn't the way that Biscuits may improve strength
@JackofAllMinistries
Жыл бұрын
Isn't this test more of a shearing/tensile hybrid? I would think a pure tensile test would have to pull the joints directly apart...
@rickallen2374
5 жыл бұрын
My impression is that the biscuits will aid in keeping the joint together, by adding additional glue to the joint that is in shear, not just tension like a joint without a biscuit. I would never use a joint with a biscuit where there is any substantial bending load on the joint. Very interesting and thought provoking video, well done!
@robertphillips3992
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video. My brother and I were just having this discussion yesterday.
@Elderos5
7 жыл бұрын
Nice test! Your method is spot on. I work in a calibration lab for nuclear power plants. We also do destructive testing similar to the test you did here. The big difference between your test and one we might do would be the accuracy of the test equipment. I noticed only two things with your test. When placing the force on your scale make sure it is in the middle of the scale. If you are around the edges it is called side loading and you could lose accuracy on your scales readings. The second is the speed at which you apply the load. You want a smooth steady application of the load. If you go too fast it will alter the data, and the same if you go too slow. Since most of your tests were about the same speed, it's still apples to apples. You just might get different results if you go at a slower pace. Otherwise, your tests were really good. 👍😉.
@RageDaug
Жыл бұрын
Not surprised. I'm barely a casual weekend warrior when it comes to wood working, but the first lesson I learned was that it was the glue that was the strength of the joint (granted I'm trusting the woodworker who taught me that). In my first projects I used brad nails as a method to hold the joint until the glue set, but once the glue set, the glue would holding the joint together. Biscuits have always been an alignment tool, and I use as few as possible because the biscuits themselves tend to be weak wood, so they break easier, compromising the integrity of the joint.
@lazio7495
3 жыл бұрын
I just bought a biscuit joiner and used it to join 3 - 1" x 5 1/2" x 33" boards all glued together! They stayed weak and loose! I think I'll go back to using dowels to join boards together. They stay real strong that way! Thanks for sharing this video!👍
@WheresMyPencilUK
7 жыл бұрын
Great video Keith a very scientific approach. I was waiting for you to break out the lab coat! I'm not surprised biscuits are weaker. Without going all physics the structure is dramatically changed (surface area in different directions for glue) and the forces can therefore act in different ways due to the shape. As others have said they do aid alignment though. I wonder if a similar situation would be seen with dowels.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Happy Wife Happy Life I'm starting to think a follow up with dowels and splines might be interesting !
@MechanicalMooCow
6 жыл бұрын
A sample size of one per joint is hardly scientific, and to draw any conclusions from the results would be laughable. Try this another few hundred times per joint, and perhaps we could start discussing which is and isn't better than what, and start drawing conclusions as to why the results are the way they are. There are too many variables at play otherwise. "5 out of the 6 joints failed WITH the biscuits!" Okay, but how much glue per joint did you use? Did you measure the humidity of each joint and ensure they were as close a match with each? Were there any defects that could have caused a preemptive break upon closer inspection, etc? Again, this was a cool little experiment, but hardly worth taking the results seriously.
@ozrenbalic6051
6 жыл бұрын
"A sample size of one per joint is hardly scientific... Try this another few hundred times per joint" Why don't you try that? Very easy to criticize others from your armchair, telling them what they should do. Much harder to actually do it yourself.
@RageDaug
Жыл бұрын
@@MechanicalMooCow Can you post the video where you did the hundreds of tests so we can know scientifically? Until that that, I will thank the author of this video for the work he did and use this "unscientific" data to influence my wood working decisions.
@holzhandwerk_ak
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. Thanks for this very structured approach and the insightful results.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Andreas Kalt thank you!
@davewilliams355
7 жыл бұрын
Wow, I am amazed at those results, thanks Keith, saved me some money there. Do dowels next....
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Dave Williams I may do that!
@MechanicalMooCow
6 жыл бұрын
You are going to take results based upon sample sizes of one? Christ, man
@Bonzomallard
6 жыл бұрын
I think you’ll find a similar result with dowels.... old bean
@damnvan
6 жыл бұрын
I like your approach to this, but I don't know if I would put joint like that in the middle of something that is load bearing. How about a test for shear strength of a board with/without biscuits at each end and the load in the center, like the middle shelf of a cabinet?
@EvanDunville
7 жыл бұрын
Interesting results, i was a little surprised how weak the pine was. I have always used biscuits for alignment and in that sense they are very helpful.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Evan Dunville thanks, yep I agree although I could happily live without my biscuit jointer now
@muddyfences5559
7 жыл бұрын
As an owner ( and infrequent user) of a biscuit jointer, I worked on the assumption that they added strength. I was lead to believe that they would swell from the moisture in the glue and provide tension and extra gluing surface area. This experiment was an eye opener. I would have preferred to see each glue up done in duplicate or triplicate to test the reproducibility, but now I'm getting picky, and long winded. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
@yzelickman
7 жыл бұрын
Very nice video, Your experiment setup was such that the joints where loaded with bending moment and shear force, with the moment being the dominant. The stress distribution due to bending moment in the cross section is linear with maximum tension at one edge, maximum compression at the other edge and zero at the center of the section depth. Therefore, in think that the biscuits didn't add to the joint's strength because they where at the center of board thickness. Placing the biscuit closely as possible to the board face that is in tension will, in my opinion, strengthen the joints. thanks for the video it was very interesting.
@HammerandNeil
7 жыл бұрын
Very Interesting point there. Placing two biscuits, one at the top and one at the bottom could be better to put it in tension or compression and lower the moment.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+yzelickman thanks! Sorry but your comment has gone way over my head - you're too clever for me!
@HammerandNeil
7 жыл бұрын
Rag 'n' Bone Brown basically the middle will bend more than the edge so you will break the biscuit easier in the middle.
@yzelickman
7 жыл бұрын
hey, thanks for the 'clever'. Well just an engineer. I am attaching link to a 9 sec video presenting what i tried to explain in my comment. kzitem.info/news/bejne/r5Bt0KukrJ18hoY. The bottom line is that joints with eccentric biscuits might be stronger.
@andreicharpentierquesada4530
6 жыл бұрын
i was extremely impressed with the force that poplar had without the biscuit, really good video.(in a future ill use biscuit joints only for guide and easy clamping)
@BischBaschBosch
6 жыл бұрын
Interesting results with plenty to follow up on I'd have thought. One thing I would say is when I was learning my trade as a carpenter/joiner, I remember asking if biscuits added strength. The old boys said a categorical "no, they for alignment only". For that, they're a great, cost effective and quick solution. But that response from my teachers has always stuck with me and I'm surprised to hear there's been a debate happening - between who?
@RageDaug
Жыл бұрын
Same. I don't know if this was old knowledge that was lost over time, or because of how popular Norm made biscuit joiners which made everyone forget; but I was taught the same thing. The glue is the strength of the joint.
@MarkMcCluney
7 жыл бұрын
I thought this was a reasonably scientific effort and probably enough to produce a significant (if not particularly precise) picture. Good enough for the workshop anyway! Good job mate and entertaining vid, thanks as always.
@ianbrodiesmith4085
7 жыл бұрын
I would say also that the hole you put in the wood weakens the wood. Double biscuits work best on these end grains. Yes you cut out more wood but it is twice as much glue which is the main joint power. Would loved to be proved wrong. The other thing is who in their right mind is putting that much weight on a end grain joint lol. Nice vid Sir
@mtsurov
Жыл бұрын
Exactly what I needed to know
@Wastelandman7000
Жыл бұрын
Interesting. I'm wondering what a hardwood test would look like. And a thicker wood test with double stack biscuits. Mind you, I wouldn't expect any joining method to hold together using either of these methods when lateral pressure is applied. I'd at the very least use a half lap or dowels. Still under this kind of test I wouldn't expect any joint to survive long. Even a mortise and tenon joint would fail given enough pressure.
@briangriffiths937
7 жыл бұрын
Nice video, biscuits still have their uses, but not for adding strength. Be interesting to see the same experiment using dowels instead of biscuits.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Brian Griffiths may do that in future
@taitelennox4514
6 жыл бұрын
hello Keith, Thank you for making this video. I am currently deciding to buy a biscuit joiner.
@bbreeuwer4577
7 жыл бұрын
Never used biscuits myself, ever. For lining up you can also use tiny nails. It would be interesting to also test it with dowels btw!
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+dA Brewer thanks, yes may well do that soon :-)
@dfpguitar
5 жыл бұрын
yes would love to see it with dowels. I think part of the reason why biscuit jointers (along with most other power tools) are so popular is simply because people, namely men, love buying tools like women buy shoes. Like every carpenter I see in a video on KZitem owns a kreg pocket hole and clamp set. When there is nothing special about the clamps and the jig can be homemade in less than a minute. People like tools, nothing wrong with that. I like tools too. I was about to buy a biscuit jointer but now I've found out they add no strength I won't. Somehow this makes me sad when I should be happy that strong joints are much easier to make than I thought!
@rsilvers129
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the video. Two things. First, I would like to see someone compare a single Domino strength to simply using two 5 cent Lamello Biscuits on top of one another. No one has done that. Even a clone Domino is 17 cents. Second, I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side. No sense in judging biscuits without using Lamello brand.
@Mr_Judge_Benny_Hinn
7 жыл бұрын
Good video...Biscult joints were all the rage in the early 90s or there abouts...A lot like Acid house...
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Family they've had their day!
@StuffIMade
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting! Biscuit jointer for sale! Had you dunked the biscuits 🍪 in your tea ☕️ old bean?
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Stuff I Made I'm one of those rare British non tea drinkers!!! :-o
@StuffIMade
7 жыл бұрын
Me too, don't do tea or coffee ☕️
@stpariah9609
7 жыл бұрын
Interesting subject, another great vid! From my experience, biscuits main benefit is the alignment of boards, particularly when you're biscuiting the length of the board rather than the width. In terms of sheer strength, I'd assume most spliced/notched/jointed techniques would work better where applicable.
@eduardvaniersel7535
7 жыл бұрын
A very Matthias Wandel-like video, well done. I'm not that surprised biscuit joints fail more quickly then butt joints when a bending force is applied, since your making more holes and sharp corners in the joint along which it can fail. I think biscuit joints would perform better under a pulling force. What surprised me the most was how strong the end grain glue up was.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Eduard van Iersel when you put it like that you're absolutely right! I don't know why I didn't think that way but I do now :-) the end grain joint really shocked me too
@bradrugh1429
2 жыл бұрын
Great experiment.....thank you.
@danny26barrow
7 жыл бұрын
Can't wait for this video as I asked u last week some time then u said u "done a video on biscuit joints" lol mad
@StamosTee
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting experiment. As far as I know, biscuit s are for alignment not for extra strength. They ran made from a very thin and soft wooden material compared to dowells or dominos. What makes wondering is the glue. I don't know what you use,but you shouldn't have so clean breaks at the glued joints.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Stamatis T I think biscuits are made from beech which is a hardwood? I just use regular white pva wood glue. It's never failed me and is plenty strong enough for most applications
@CMD_GB
7 жыл бұрын
Would like to see same thing but with dowels... 👍🏻Keith
@younusdanka7605
5 жыл бұрын
Fantastic tutorial. I would suggest more biscuits. That is, two biscuits.... one at 5mm and one at 15mm on a 20mm board.
@HODYODesign
7 жыл бұрын
You did great on this one! Very intersting!
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+HODYO Design thanks
@Mario-iv5tu
6 жыл бұрын
Complimenti. Video interessantissimo. Mi ha lasciato di stucco. Grazie per avermi messo in guardia da facili entusiasmi e opinioni errate. Sicuramente ne farò tesoro e lo terrò presente
@felixreali7101
4 жыл бұрын
love this video. I was always under the impression that biscuit joints were a waste of time (only from listening to more experienced and more skilled woodworkers on YT)...and they were right. They do help to line up glue joints better and easier but as for added strength: not a hope. great test though :-)
@SuppenHahnBier
7 жыл бұрын
You should have done a couple of tests for each board type, like matthias wandel does for his test. Anyway I really enjoyed this video, well done :)
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+SuppenHahnBier thanks! I didn't have enough scraps for that but you're right it would have made for a better experiment with more samples
@itwasereonce
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting video. If you rub joint the ones without biscuits you should get an even stronger joint and a bigger resistance figure 😎
@hansdegroot8549
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting test/experiment. A kind of Matthias Wandel style. Very good. The result do not really suprise me because I heard already before that biscuits are for eating and not for strength. But I was quite surprised about the way you tested it: Melamine, MDF and plywood are boards/panels. In that case you hardly need to make boards longer or wider (unless you want to you more pieces of scrap). More useful would be testing corner connections with biscuits for these materials. This you need when you are making boxes, drawers, etc. For solid wood it is in fact the same. It is very useful to know that end grain connections are quite strong but needing that does not occur so often. Maybe a panel glueing test (with and without biscuits) can be more of use. When you have 5 pieces of solid wood, each 4 inches wide and you want to make a panel/board of that, which will be in that case 20 inches wide. Depending on the length of the pieces you need more biscuits for each piece of wood to connect (at least 3) Don't see my comment as criticism. Regard is as a (maybe useful) addition to the experiment you did in your video.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Hans de Groot thanks Hans, I may do a follow up with some more tests
@nicholausstraach458
2 жыл бұрын
I was planning on building a workbench with 2x4’s laminated and use a biscuit jointer but I guess I don’t need to use a jointer.
@David-ew9rg
7 жыл бұрын
Very surprised as well Keith. I bought the jointer specifically to get more strength in my glue-ups and not for the purpose of alignment. Could have spent that money on a great dowel jig instead maybe... Thanks for the video, well made.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+David thank you! Surprised me too. Shame there are no other alternatives that are reasonably priced!
@bighands69
5 жыл бұрын
+David Biscuits are great for alignment because they then allow you to use less accurate methods after the glue as set such as pocket holes or dowels. I will glue up biscuit joints and then apply a through dowel joint with does not require any fancy jigs. It is a very fast, accurate and extremely strong methods of jointing when used in this fashion.
@timmills3823
7 жыл бұрын
I have never thought that a biscuit joint was stronger, rather that it keeps two pieces in the same plane for glue ups. I typically plane the surface of a glue up, I wonder how a rough cut vs a planed surface compare in strength.
@ksp1278
7 жыл бұрын
I had heard that biscuits made no difference or maybe even weakened a joint. But I never actually believed it. Very interesting. I have a biscuit jointer but only used it for two projects since I bought it 2 years ago
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+ksp1278 I had heard that too but didn't believe it... Now I do! May still use it for alignment every now and again but could definitely be without it!
@rudolfzaris675
7 жыл бұрын
Nice test. Realy ! :.-) I found out, that a quality of biscuits varies. Once I bought biscuits from Lamello brand, and they are very strong. Try to use differend brands of biscuits. Maybe you will be surprised. :-) Thanks.
@dfpguitar
5 жыл бұрын
I'm not surprised lamello are the best, they invented the biscuit jointer and being Swiss they even manage to outdo Germans in terms of quality tools.
@Phenrica
7 жыл бұрын
I have always believed that biscuits are for alignment not strength. For strength use mortise & tenons / domino machine I would have thought
@robhimself79
7 жыл бұрын
S W I would love to see a domino in use. I still think the plain joint would be equally as strong. A real mortis is probably much stronger.
@eduardvaniersel7535
7 жыл бұрын
I think dominos would perform similarly to biscuits, as it is practically the same type of joint. Just a little different shape.
@mskehan19
5 жыл бұрын
My thought too i would never use or consider a biscuit for adding strength
@dfpguitar
5 жыл бұрын
after seeing this experiment , I think it's a real possibility that dominos add no strength either. The examples here had the wood itself breaking because they had been weakened with a hole.
@tobybeswick36
7 жыл бұрын
i've always thought they add strength because it's kind of like a spline joint. But it seems the manufactured biscuits themselves aren't that strong. I would've been interesting to see more samples of each, so you can get a good average
@bighands69
5 жыл бұрын
Biscuit joints are really strong when used correctly. The problem with was test was that there was too many variables. I have used them before on structural joints and they are still standing.
@robertthornhill4379
7 жыл бұрын
hi i d just like to say i enjoy your videos cant wait for fridays
@PathinAZ
7 жыл бұрын
Not surprising. I've seen a few other channels do the same experiment (set up a little different) and the usual outcome was that the biscuit joint fared about the same. The conclusions were that the biscuit was mainly used for keeping the boards aligned during the glue-up but added no extra strength. Cheers..
@fcconstantino
6 жыл бұрын
Do a comparison between biscutis, glue, dowels, nails and screws!
@Badgerworkshop
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. I thought they would be stringer with.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Badger Workshop that makes two of us :-)
@patrickw4046
7 жыл бұрын
Good video I bought a Dowelmax, for this reason. If you can afford it get one it is well worth the price
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Patrick W I'd be more inclined to make a dowel jig I think. I may make one on future
@Ravingamer1981
7 жыл бұрын
You should of done another test. Put 2 bits of wood where you put the pencil makes in that test and put the clamp in the middle where the glue / biscuits joints are. You might of got different results
@brewmaster4486
7 жыл бұрын
Very interesting video! I'd have thought that the extra surface area in the joint would have made it stronger but apparently not! Maybe biscuits will add strength to a joint which will make it harder to pull apart rather than bend? Who knows
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Brewmaster~ possibly yes, although that would be more difficult test to set up... I'll get thinking!
@josephdestaubin7426
6 жыл бұрын
I can't help but to wonder if perhaps the end-grain glue being stronger is indicative of inadequate drive time prior to testing. In other words, only the end-grain blew up fully dried.
@dfpguitar
5 жыл бұрын
I'm definitely surprised! I always thought biscuits added a small amount of strength because they increase the gluing surface area. But for it to be weaker almost every time is a shock. Maybe things would be different if the biscuits were made of a stronger material. Would also be interesting to see your identical experiment done with dowels.
@latengocomoburro
5 жыл бұрын
I don't think so, I think is has more to do with the surface area than anything else. With the biscuits there is less surface area, in this case. That biscuit joiner is removing almost a third of the area. Biscuits also have big gaps on the sides were you would just have glue.
@jeffreyquinn3820
5 жыл бұрын
I realize knocking biscuits is kind of the internet contact sport of the moment, but I still like using them for joints which don't require a lot of strength. I find they save a lot of time and prevent alignment mistakes, and the cost of tools & supplies is low. I used to have a jar of three-layer plywood biscuits that made a slightly stronger joint when gluing the ends of plywood together, but it's not hard to improve on the strength of this type of joint. They worked for tensile/pulling strength, but probably didn't do anything for bending.
@bighands69
5 жыл бұрын
Good biscuit joints can be really strong they can also be combine with other joints such as pocket holes.
@Psychlist1972
7 жыл бұрын
Not a big deal, but the MDF needs to be glue-sized first. It absorbs too much of the glue, making the joint weak. I hate working with MDF :P That wouldn't change your outcomes, though.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Pete Brown I hate working with mdf too!
@dacutler
4 жыл бұрын
I wonder how the results would have been if the joint had been in sheer (sideways)
@gazgough9264
7 жыл бұрын
great video, i was thinking about getting a biscuit joiner but to much money for me, so ill stick to dowels, I think you should do the same test with dowels see which one is better dowel vs biscuit vs nothing
@darrenupton9747
4 жыл бұрын
logically done and v useful - thanks!
@AbamAdy
7 жыл бұрын
thanks keith for sharing..nice experiments
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Ady Unixmoment thanks
@bobdickweed
7 жыл бұрын
I sat down with a cup of Tea....this is not the Biscuit video i was looking for ...;-p
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Eye Toldyoosso haha
@CreatingtheReaper
7 жыл бұрын
it almost seems like the biscuit acts like a lever when flexing the wood to get a break.
@babakkhoramdin3146
7 жыл бұрын
How about the mitres joint? If cut across a mitre joint ( eg a picture frame) and add biscuit in there wouldn't add strength to the joints???
@Mario-iv5tu
6 жыл бұрын
Ovviamente il sistema di fresatura con i lamelli è validissimo e utilissimo, quasi indispensabile per un perfetto l’assemblaggio, va rinforzato, magari con delle viti per la tenuta. Grazie
@Nonowmana
7 жыл бұрын
Quite interesting results my fellow
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Renaud SoftwareGuy Informatique thanks
@jamesjames_07
7 жыл бұрын
I would like to see a spline comparison maybe next time? I’ve never really liked the look of them and would like to know if they are all that important on a 4 sided box.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+James Lovick-Earle nice idea! May do a follow up with dowels and splines
@reversegreenpotato
7 жыл бұрын
awesome. I'm curious about dowels too.
@FredBloggsTheThird
7 жыл бұрын
Please do some more experiments occasionally in the future! ;)
@keefykeef
5 жыл бұрын
coming very soon!
@jonahneumann227
4 жыл бұрын
Keith Brown who are you
@richardyoung9922
7 жыл бұрын
hi ya, As the biscuits didn't work which surprised me as well , How about doing the same test with dowels?? i reckon the dowels would be stronger . at least two in each board... what do you think?
@houtjeboom
7 жыл бұрын
Good test... but I think you had to wait longer till the glue was completely dried, cause some of them were not
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Houtje Boom - Be Creative it had about 20 hours, I think that is plenty
@doyle201206
6 жыл бұрын
didn't expect the particle board to win outright.
@stevengockij5841
6 жыл бұрын
Near the beginning of the video you stated that you thought a piece of hardwood inside the middle of the joint would make the joint stronger. I think that this is still a true statement. The thing is, those biscuits you buy are anything but a piece of "hardwood", in fact they're nothing more than compressed saw dust. I think it would be interesting to cut a few biscuits yourself out of various materials and see if they were any stronger. Thanx for the video. Interesting topic.
@RagnBoneBrown
6 жыл бұрын
that would be an interesting experiment - I may do something like that in future
@ardvarkkkkk1
6 жыл бұрын
Steven Gockij I don't know where you are buying your biscuits but the ones I use are made of beach. I have never seen on that wasn't solid wood.
@SKraus-pb1ii
4 жыл бұрын
Thanks very much for the great video! Like the setup :)
@mahmoudal-maghribi8597
5 жыл бұрын
A biscuit actually reduces the effective glued area by the area of the cross section of the biscuit. The additional glued area is useless since the weakest link in the chain is the wood of the biscuit itself.
@mysterygardener3619
7 жыл бұрын
Great clip very interesting .Andy
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+mystery gardener thanks!
@torque9889
7 жыл бұрын
Great vid an great idea to test out
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+torque8899 thansk
@TeamProsperity
6 жыл бұрын
The joint is fine depending on what it’s used for. Great for face frames and joints that don’t require a great deal of stress
@bighands69
5 жыл бұрын
Great for carcas work as jointing as well. You would never use them on a table but they could be combined with screw joints. Self locking plastic and metal biscuits can be used to clamp the pieces.
@JoeGP
7 жыл бұрын
the first wood isn't melamine, it's particle board with a melamine coating, melamine is a hard plastic basically
@johnfithian-franks8276
7 жыл бұрын
Very surprised at your results, I was always of the opinion that biscuits would add strength. I will continue to use biscuits but just for alinement now.
@donrobertson4940
Жыл бұрын
Someone needs to make up two sets of small chairs - one with biscuits, one with dowels. Then take them down to a primary school and see how many survive a year. It's the only way to be sure.
@davidayling3894
7 жыл бұрын
Great videos. Keep 'me coming.
@henrykg
7 жыл бұрын
Biscuits can give higher tension or shear strength, but why anyone expect higher break strength? The boards always fail first (starting from surface where tension is highest) and then biscuit has no chance to stand.
@miloszivkovic6118
3 жыл бұрын
I dont understand why people keep saying that wood will break rather than glued connection. Why are tenons used then?
@RagnBoneBrown
3 жыл бұрын
Tenons are used to increase side grain to side grain gluing surface because side grain to end grain joints are not strong
@miloszivkovic6118
3 жыл бұрын
@@RagnBoneBrown hmm, how certain are you that that is only reason? I always thought it was mechanical reason, and thats why tenon is 1/3 wide, and mortise walls 1/3 each, therefore strongest joint of all.
@syrax6508
7 жыл бұрын
Now you need to do the same test with dowels and dominos too.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Syrax if someone wants to fund a domino for me I'll gladly do the experiment :-)
@syrax6508
7 жыл бұрын
lol fair, just the dowels then
@michaelevans1658
7 жыл бұрын
Interesting stuff.
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Michael Evans thanks Michael
@MaydaysCustomWoodworks
4 жыл бұрын
Hey man, although yours tests were accurate, these tests aren't geared to how a biscuit is supposed to actually strengthen a joint. A biscuit is supposed to increase the glue surface parallel with the face of the board. In other words.... Don't test it's strength in bending. Test it's strength in pulling. Like pull the two joints apart from each other without bending it. That's theoretically how biscuits are supposed to help. There are also specialty biscuits like self clamping biscuits. Those can be very useful, as well as alignment, making assemblies go smoother and faster. Good tests, but not exactly testing what biscuits are good at... But still good for showing that biscuits actually hurt the flexural strength of a board. I've seen this same result on dominos and metal in lays. The best thing to prevent bending like you are doing here is a finger joint with only glue holding it together. That's likely to be stronger than the wood surrounding it because you are layering the grain and stabilizing it with a glue bond.
@RagnBoneBrown
4 жыл бұрын
When biscuits are used for adding an trim to a table top for example, the force applied to it would be downwards, not a pulling force
@MaydaysCustomWoodworks
4 жыл бұрын
@@RagnBoneBrown ... No it's not, man. The force would be every direction for a table top skirt. People are going to be pulling on that thing and leaning on it and every other way of force. Not just straight down. And I didn't say "this isnt how people use biscuits" I said "these tests aren't geared to how a biscuit is supposed to strengthen a joint". People use biscuits like you showed all the time, and NO it won't add strength this way. If someone was gonna use a biscuit for a table top skirt it won't add any strength. It will just help for alignment. But let's say if you had biscuit joints holding a face frame onto a cabinet, and then tried to hammer the face frame back off a cabinet, that is a way that the biscuits should (in theory) add a small amount of strength to that specific direction of the joint's resistance. I am a professional cabinet maker. I occasionally glue face frames directly to cabinets with no joints, nails or screws. Just glue. I attach hardwood edging to adjustable shelves with only glue as well. I make cutting boards, and attach panels together with nothing but glue. And I've tried to disassemble them when I've made a mistake, and it's practically impossible to disassemble with a great glue joint. It will destroy the cabinet. The glue joint is plenty strong and does not need any help what so ever. I've never gotten a call back from a busted joint. BUT... IF a biscuit joint is gonna add strength, it would be against pulling the joint apart perpendicular to the glue joint. So in conclusion.... Yes... Biscuits CAN add strength in specific applications, but it's completely unecessary. With a good glue joint you will have every bit of strength you need. Biscuits are most effective for alignment and specialty tasks like self clamping biscuits from Lamello or the T slotted biscuits from Lamello. But they CAN add strength when you use it the way I said... And you need a high quality biscuit too. Not dried out crappy ones. Any biscuit from Lamello will give you optimal results
@danny26barrow
7 жыл бұрын
Also wld it depend where u put your clamp as in closer to the joint or further away from joints?
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+dan barrow I don't think it'd make any difference as the force should be roughly the same once the glue joint is tight
@sumosprojects
7 жыл бұрын
How do dowels stack up ?, btw great review
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Sumo's Projects definitely have to test that in future!
@PLF...
3 жыл бұрын
Glue salesman in your area must be rich
@theweepinghunter
6 жыл бұрын
nice vid thank you
@henrymach
7 жыл бұрын
So, basically the biscuit makes the joint weaker. Interesting. Now what about dowels?
@tommyjohn4446
6 жыл бұрын
i am making a yard art display, mother deer with her 2 twins, but the sheet of plywood is 1 foot to short and the mother deer head will not fit, so now i have to add a extra piece to make the head. glueing it i will not be able to clamp them together, biscuits and glue, but again i will not be able to clamp it. do u have any other idea's on how i can attach the head. i was also thinking about making 2 heads but one have a longer neck then use the glue and biscuit to attach the head, then on the back attach the second head and neck for extra support. but then the display will only be mainly 1 sided not exactly the same on both sides. since some people want to display facing either direction.
@RagnBoneBrown
6 жыл бұрын
I’d consider using epoxy as it’s a better gap filling glue than wood glue is so if you can’t clamp it it might be more effective
@carlhobson1578
3 жыл бұрын
I’m surprised by that, I also thought the biscuits would add some strength.
@tkpjames
7 жыл бұрын
I was once told a biscuit joiner was for alignment and a domino joiner was for strength. Got a domino you could test?
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+James Stevenson sadly not, but if you want to send me one I will :-)
@tyler4164
7 жыл бұрын
Very surprising
@Viken43
7 жыл бұрын
After watching this stuck my biscuit joiner on eBay, now searching for a Steve clamp...
@RagnBoneBrown
7 жыл бұрын
+Kevin Clarke may do the same :-) haha I am going to start renting Steve out!
@bighands69
5 жыл бұрын
I have used biscuit joints for years and they are really strong. They really come into their own when doing carcas work on cabinets. I have used biscuits on tables as well so the biscuits were applied to the joints and the glue was allowed to dry and then screws were applied after. Those tables have stood for the last 20 years with no signs of failure.
@JY-od3uq
4 жыл бұрын
Melamine board is NOT plastic coated , its paper coated!
@colinaskey9777
6 жыл бұрын
Hola Keith,just want to say it was a fun vidio to watch,like you say not very scientific buttocks still fun to watch
@colinaskey9777
6 жыл бұрын
sorry didactic not mean to say buttocks,I was not watching the predictive mode,sorry
@rickymcgrath2314
5 жыл бұрын
SHEAR strength. When will a biscuit joint ever be under load in a lever action situation. Tests need to be conducted in their respective application. Biscuits would mostly always be under a shear load.
@keefykeef
5 жыл бұрын
I disagree, biscuits are used quite commonly in this way actually - e.g. adding a solid wood trim to a veneered board with biscuits when making a table top for example. The stress would be applied in exactly the same way as in this video - by arms and elbows for example. Or even feet if someone were to stand on the edge of the table top
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