My 1989 USA Custom square Badge Gretsch kit has tons of sustain. 6 ply maple gum shells. Sometimes it is hard to tame them even with gels, etc. I love them and they still sound amazing. Great video!
@DrBackBeat
4 ай бұрын
This video is amazing and I'm going to recommend it forever to people. The amount of myths being propagated daily, most frequently by drum manufacturers' marketing departments mind you, is astounding, and a down-to-earth assessment of what turns out to be really basic science is sometimes all you need to debunk the lot. I've gotten pretty active on the r/drums subreddit, and while there is enough BS on there as well, the down-to-eartheners there have really educated me on how overestimated things like shell materials etc are and how much more the heads matter to begin with. Really pulls you away from the marketing guff for flagship drum sets and settles you into a nice intermediate kit for a fraction of the price and the same amount of pleasure and reliability. Please never stop, this was by no means a long or winding video but incredibly educational. And your way of telling is nothing short of mesmerizing. Thanks!
@chase6428
9 ай бұрын
Resonance is refering to the harmonic series, a thin shell does resonate more because the fundamental causes its harmonics to resonate, aka the overtones. Tldr resonance= more overtones, not sustain.
@s4lroachclip
10 сағат бұрын
...continuing... If the shell vibrates it sustains the vibration of the head. If you have a kit on a riser on stage while people walk by you will hear the singing of your cymbals vibrating, right. So you listen to the drums as they are being made to vibrate, they cause the heads to vibrate just like the cymbals do. It is the shell causing that.
@jorymil
2 ай бұрын
Something interesting to try would be adding a bit of pressure-sensitive resistor material under hoops so you can measure the pressure differences of the hoops.
@RecordingDrumsWithBrad
Жыл бұрын
I feel less crazy now for preferring thick shells over thin shells. Ludwig 6 ply shells made in the late 70's sound amazing! I also love early 80's Tama Superstar shells. Probably the easiest kit I've ever recorded. Thanks for the video, learned a lot!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
My brother! (You're definitely not crazy ;)
@RecordingDrumsWithBrad
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza Haha!! Thanks!
@Rockin_Ross
Жыл бұрын
On your recording drums chapter: I use the example of how Eddie Kramer of Led Zeppelin recorded John Bonham. Very few microphones used and he still got great sound from that man. Great video series, Sir! You’re the ultimate Drum Nerd hero! 🤘🏻🤘🏻
@theswime945
Жыл бұрын
Drums and science and sound engineering, all coherently explained. What more could you want? Cheers.
@guitaristbiker
Жыл бұрын
I have thicker heavier drum shells with outter round over edges. I always used clear emperor batters and clear ambassador resos. After hearing you talk in the shell and edge videos about roundovers robbing some high end and you liking thinner heads on those old thicker sonor shells, I snagged some clear diplomats to try as my resos and then flip my clear ambassadors up to the batter side. WOW! did that make an amazing difference with tuning range and bringing some high end back into the equation, also a better sounding more rounded sustain. Much appreciated sir!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Fantastic! So glad you're happy. Thanks so much for sharing!
@yourdrumsound
Жыл бұрын
Hi, thanks for putting out these contents! It's weird talking about how to get a longer resonance at this time as today's "young" drummers all aim pretty much for a dead thud (i.e. big fat things and Emad premuffled heads). Anyway, I love drum sound and I like your "let's chat about that" approach, si I'd like to share my experience. I've experienced that a thin shell made with non-dense wood (so less amount of wood in a unit) will do what you (and Sonor) says, so it will absorb the energy given by the drummer striking the head and will have less projection, less sustain and a "duller" sound with more fundamental and less overtones. But, a thin (but dense, strong) shell will sustain as long as a thick shell. I think the focus shouldn't be about the lenght of the note but about the sound (tone) that comes out of the drum. On thin (dense) shells you hear more of the fundamental and that's perceived as more low end, while on thick shells the low frequencies are still there but are more focused (and with focused I don't mean less, but clearer). Pretty much all Yamaha drums have thick shells and they are still in demand as live backline kits (a part of that demand is simply because people are used to it since the 80s) so you can mic them up and you're ready to go. Less "boooommmmmmmm" perceived (so a clearer sound to the ears) and the sound guy is happy as he takes less to dial in the sound and create the space for other musicians (other frequencies). But in this case the yamaha YESS mount can "eat up" a lot of the resonance, especially on certain tunings (and this changes based on how you position the hex rod into the bracket, especially on older 80s YESS system), and people on stage aim to those spots so they have "less troubles" (hylarious, yes...) So, based on all the test I've been doing over the last 25 years (backline tech, studio and being a drummer) the mount you have on your toms/floor toms has a big impact on the resonance. Rims are a great choice, I use them on all my drums too, but if the rims gets in contact with 6 of 8 screws on a 14" tom (so it touches the hoop in many spots) it will inhibit the resonance, that's why I cut out some of the "ears" on mine. Same thing on Gretsch 12" Tom, the rims gets in touch with 4 of the 5 screws and you have less resonance. A lot of people complains about the SQ1 (medium-thick shell) 12" tom sounding choke at some tunings, and that's the mount (hinged to the shell) "eating-up" all the resonance. Similar case as Yamaha. Sonor has undersized shells, that meet the hads on the "flat" spot, this allow more resonance, but that's another topic I'm sure you'll cover in the future (if you haven't done it already). Check this out to hear some tests I've made. kzitem.info/news/bejne/lJeoq21upHxogno I encurage you to record a fair test by using let's say a 12" thin shell (N&C, Pork Pie, DW, you name it...) and a 12" thick shell tuned the same exact way, with the same heads, mount and mics, not a competition, just to hear the tonal/sustain differences. Personally I like to give a proof when I talk about something, even though it's not easy to hear all the nuances on the internet, but this is what we have! I appreciate what you did in this video and I really like the topic in question, during the last 25/30 years marketing did a great job in selling stuff we don't need. I think that today's internet approch "what's the best choice" is totally misleading as you've pointed out in this video, each project needs different sound, and that's the fun part! Keep up the good work! Cheers from Italy! Dave
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I just saw your post, Dave... Fantastic!! Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, I will definitely be following up these 'drum sound physics' videos (there are several more coming, BTW) with example videos demonstrating what I'm talking about. I would like to include it all in one video (discussion AND demonstration), but it takes a lot of time to do the demonstrations correctly (ideally all things equal EXCEPT the variable you're testing... A thin PDP tom vs. a heavy Ludwig 6-ply tom from the late 70s don't share the same dimensions, material or hardware... not that it isn't useful (after all we have noticed these performance characteristics after playing many drums over the years!), but I am putting together a project with my buddy who builds drums to do some slightly more scientific comparisons (my best attempt anyway), and will post those videos as a follow up to all my hot air!! Thanks so much for posting! Cheers!
@yourdrumsound
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza That's great! Yeah I know.. it takes A LOT of time to do all the tests in a transparent and good way. Having something with floating suspension, same hardware/heads/tuning but different shell will be a great way to do a scientific test. The tricky part is the micing, but I'm sure you'll do your best to capture the real sound. Waiting for more scientific test, and new stuff! Cheers
@DannyGadish
Жыл бұрын
I feel like the fat dead sound has been pretty popular since the late 60s. And it’s always sounded awful imo, with a handful of exceptions such as Ringo and Mick Fleetwood
@JorgeRodriguez-sd7yf
Ай бұрын
@@yourdrumsound Hi, I have a Yamaha stage custom kit and it is true that the YESS mounts can stop a lot of the resonance of the toms, in my case it's the 12" that goes from a really long sustain to a "thud" as soon as you mount it. My question is, have you found any way to solve this problem, I didn't understand what you said about the hex-rod, thanks and have a good day
@yourdrumsound
Ай бұрын
@@JorgeRodriguez-sd7yf Hi Jorge, unfortunately the only solution to your problem is removing the YESS mounting and replace it with a RIMS (you should do this for the 10" as well). As far as the hex-rod mount check this out, there're 3 Yamaha drums tested kzitem.info/news/bejne/lJeoq21upHxogno
@TwoandaHater
Жыл бұрын
hope you get into what you mean by "tuned wide open"
@drumskibumski1230
Жыл бұрын
I loved this and immediately subscribed, thank you. I'm 61 and I read that same Sonor Catalogue article in the 80's, I've been quoting it endlessly ever since. Everything you're talking about I have experienced first hand. In fact, my home studio kit is a Sonor Signiature and depending on how it's played or how it's recorded, it just has a huge range of sounds. In fact, I recently recorded a track with everything wide open for that 'vintage' sound but when it came to making the video the artist wanted me to mime on my 60's white marine pearl Gretch because it looked cool. When the comments started coming in about that great Gretch sound I just loved pointing out that it's actually the big thick Sonor with no dampening.
@geoffcowan2384
Жыл бұрын
In SONOR's defense, note and pitch are listed as a synonyms for tone and we describe the interval between notes as tones (ie semitone) and we the pitch of things as a tone (he spoke in a low tone) and the lack of a defined note as atonal. Great video by the way.
@Ferklaus
Жыл бұрын
Great video.
@BeesWaxMinder
Жыл бұрын
I think when people talk about resonance they mean that they hit the skin & as well as the note tuned for there is another tone that is introduced by the Shell(whether that's desirable or not is neither here nor there) I think that's what they mean not some kind of resonant filter anything That you mentioned I tend to be a believer that tone is coming from the heads primarily and I think that shells have little to do with it and the good feeling you have for your red Drums is because they're heavy build is minimising to the heads That said the notion that Choice of materials having some kind of affect on a drum is fascinating to me...🤞 I think with enough effort practically any drum can sound like any other drum especially if it's of the same diameter I believe, drum libraries not withstanding (!) That the Drum sounds we actually require in the real world are a very limited pallet anyway I would just like to add that of all my drum kits the one that is most fussy when it comes to choice of heads is my arbiter flats that have no shells at all!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for your comments! If heads are the whole of the sound (Arbiter Flats) then they'd be fussy about head selection alright ;) The construction of the drum and materials its made from definitely impact the sound, but in reality most of this gets lost once you put microphones on them and then follow those mics with signal processing. Mics themselves color the sound, and the signal paths (particularly expensive 'vintage' type mic preamps, etc.) REALLY color the sound, making the drums themselves rather submissive to the electronics involved. However the visceral and acoustic performance to the drummer and people in the room is surprisingly affected by the density of the shells, the reflectivity of the shell interior, etc. In the end they just sound like drums.
@xenprovence6126
9 ай бұрын
Great Video!
@timm1139
Жыл бұрын
….reading drum catalogs instead of my school books? Yeah, me too!
@kyledugger1413
Жыл бұрын
So cool that a catalog had all of that info! The way it’s all written feels like some sort of legally binding agreement and it cracks me up. I’d like to see modern companies attempt to communicate their “laws” of drum building. The only piece of this puzzle that feels incongruent from my experience is the case of acrylic drums. I have limited experience with them, but I do love the 70s Fibes kit that I have. My Fibes kit is easily the heaviest kit I own, yet it seems to have a much shorter decay than most drums. It definitely has a lot of fundamental, which seems to follow the principles you’re talking about, but I know that generally acrylic drums are known to have short decay & therefore emphasized punch and transient. Why don’t these heavy drums resonate the same way your heavy Ludwigs resonate? I tried looking up density of acrylic vs maple but I’m struggling to find an empirical comparison. Any thoughts? thanks as always for the great info:)
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Great (if slightly premature) question! In this video I mentioned flectional resistance, which I am pretty sure is what is at play with acrylic drums. The acrylic has interesting flectional properties compared to wood (or wood veneers glued together under pressure). Basically acrylic acts like something of a shock absorber (at least the old Vistalite and current RCI shells and whatever shell Pork Pie uses for the 6x14 Piglite that I have do). All of them have excellent body/fundamental punch with a limited sustain. As such I LOVE them for lower tunings with muffling for a fat backbeat. In fact the FATTEST backbeat I ever recorded was with a vintage 5x14 Vistalite snare tuned just above finger tight (batter) with a folded piece of copy paper taped to it. In fact I'd love to get my hands on an old Vistalite bass drum. A buddy of. mine has a 24x14 that sounds AMAZING! I'll discuss flectional resistance in a future installment, sooner than later, so stay tuned!
@kyledugger1413
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza okay yes this makes sense. When I’ve taken the heads off I can tell they’re a little wobbly when I bump them or pick them up. cool thanks!
@paulw.3967
Жыл бұрын
There's a few bits of relevant physics worth clarifying a bit more. (1) The shell being relatively rigid and immovable creates sustain because head vibrations hitting the shell can't be transmitted into the shell, and get reflected right back into the head going the other way. (That's a lot like how guitars get sustain. Most of the energy of string vibration hitting the bridge or nut or fret can't be transmitted into the guitar, and is reflected right back into the string.) Only a little fraction of the energy is transmitted from the head(s) into the shell, leaving most of it in the heads, to be transmitted into the air bit by bit at successive cycles of vibration. (2) Rigidity works together with mass to resist vibration, so a shell that is more rigid may resist vibration better than one that is more massive. Rigidity braces the edge of the shell against more mass of shell. (Imagine that the shell was completely rigid. You couldn't move the edge of the shell at all without moving the entire shell exactly that much, so the entire mass of the shell would resist the vibration at the bearing edge. If the shell is flexible, only the mass near the bearing edge matters much... a floppy connection to the rest of the mass of the shell doesn't help a lot.) (3) THICKNESS of the wood usually matters FAR MORE to stiffness than the intrinsic stiffness of the particular wood itself. A particularly dense wood might be twice as stiff for a given thickness than a lighter wood, and usually about twice as dense, but you can just make the lighter wood a little thicker and it will be just as stiff. Stiffness depends on the CUBE of the thickness, so you can double the stiffness by using 26 percent thicker wood. (1.26 * 1.26 * 1.26 = very slightly over 2.000) If you double the thickness, you can make the shell 2 * 2 * 2 = EIGHT TIMES as stiff. That means that if you a wood that is 2x lighter and 1/2 as stiff, but make it twice as thick, it will give you a shell that weighs the same but is several times stiffer than the thinner shell of the harder wood. That is why the soundboards (tops) of acoustic guitars are usually made of light woods (usually spruce or cedar), NOT dense hardwoods. The only really important tonewood in a guitar is usually a cheap, soft, light wood, not the expensive "tonewoods" that raise the prices so much, because for a given mass you can make it significantly thicker and thus much stiffer. (4) That means---and everyone needs to understand this---PARTICULAR WOODS DON'T HAVE PARTICULAR SOUNDS INDEPENDENT OF THEIR THICKNESS, and SEEMINGLY SMALL DIFFERENCES IN THICKNESS MATTER A LOT, up to a point. Maple doesn't have a particular sound, nor does mahogany, or beech, or poplar, or any of them. They all have roughly similar mechanical properties aside from their density and stiffness, which are strongly correlated and don't vary all that much. The shell's stiffness is what's important to how much it resonates, and at what frequencies, and that depends more on how thick it is than which of those woods it's made of. Once the wood gets to a certain thickness and stiffness, though, you reach a point of diminishing returns. If the shell is stiff and massive enough that very little energy is being transmitted from the heads into the wood, make it even more stiff and more massive won't make much of a difference.
@oxidinstruments
Жыл бұрын
It seems to me my comment has lost somewhere or didn't come through the internet but you pretty much covered what I wanted to say - and more. Thank you!
@JorgeRodriguez-sd7yf
Ай бұрын
This 👏 is 👏FIRE👏 Drum truth team!!!!!!!!!!
@tympanum59
6 ай бұрын
Got that same Sonor catalogue in the early eighties,still have it,along with a set of 1984 Sonor phonics.10,12,13,14,16-22 BD,absolutely killer drums,still have those also,they just turned 40 and sound better than ever,all drums and hardware are in unbelievable shape and they have been moved a lot.Thanks for the excellent content ✌️
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
I want your kit!!
@AnotherUsernameGreat
21 күн бұрын
20:09 "I'm not sure what people mean [when they use the word resonance]". I reckon what people sometimes mean by resonance is "more components of the drum vibrate".
@Manassasjunction
Жыл бұрын
Please read Fletcher, Rossing and Bork's (Germany) research documentation abt. their measuring the importance of shells, heads etc.. The countless pictures of the nodal-points of heads and shells are eye opening. In one test Germanys top drummer had to tell which wood a tom was built of. The drums were hidden behind a curtain and he failed totally. This is just a short note. "The acoustical properties of drums"! That's it. Everything else is marketing.
@markciocco2509
Жыл бұрын
Preach. Long time drummer here. I’ve held for sometime that shell characteristics (other than diameter and depth) play a fairly minor role in overall tone. The points you make also highlight how drum manufacturers have placed way too much emphasis and marketing hype on shell wood species, construction, thickness, etc. Great vid. By the way, I easily made it to the videos end.
@jimflys2
Жыл бұрын
Tone is not a bad word to use for note. Western music uses a 12 tone system and scales made up of semi- tones and whole tones. We tend to use the word tone for color or character of the sound and note for pitch, which isn't wrong. I hate carrying heavy drums anymore no matter how good they sound. I'll carry my Gretsch Catalina Club Mahogany all day and bf happy. And they sound great. Thin shells. The Yamahas will stay in the studio unless I have to take them.
@IndependentDrumLab
Жыл бұрын
Very good explanation of the physics of drums, but . . . resonance and sustain are not the same thing. In fact, they are inversely related. Resonance is when all of the drum components are vibating together (warm, round tone w/ shorter sustain), and it is indeed enhanced by using thin/low mass shells, low mass parts, and roundover bearing edges . It sounds like you prefer drums with strong sustain, essentially isolating the heads to let them vibrate as long and openly as possible. It's totally a valid sound, but certainly not the only approach, and not the sound that many drummers are going for (and why so many are drummers fighting this type of sound with gels, tape, rings, 2 ply heads etc.). I would argue that most drum companies ARE making thick-shelled heavy drums, and very few are effectively making thin-shelled, lightweight (and resonant) drums.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Excellent input, thank you so much for taking the time to comment! I really appreciate your direct answer to my question of what people mean when they say 'resonance' or 'resonate' as it is so hard to tell depending on who’s talking. INDe makes great stuff - I’ve been using your strainer/butt combo for snare mods and builds for a couple of years now (and I’m putting together a review of my INDe Kalamazoo Bronze snare that I got earlier this year - should be wrapped and posted soon!). You mention two more terms, “warm” and “round” that lots of folks use that I’m also not sure about exactly what is meant. From the standpoint of mass alone I wouldn't expect a less mass-ive shell (all other factors being equal) to produce a "rounder" or "warmer" tone (from MY meaning of those words, both of which, to me, refer to a fuller fundamental content), but mass, of course, is but one factor in the tone of a drum. You also mentioned roundover bearing edges! The round edges would definitely taper a lighter drum's brightness a bit as the greater surface contact would serve to muffle the head slightly because of the greater transfer of energy from the head(s) to the shell. These two factors together (round edges, lower mass) will definitely shorten the sustain while simultaneously reducing fundamental AND controlling the highs a bit (energy leaving the heads). The result (I would expect) is a drum with a good balance of frequencies, but a bit quieter and more controlled overall, probably ideal for smaller venues (particularly if not miked) and recording, especially if you’re into minimal miking techniques (larger diameters tuned a bit above their midrange probably sound amazing using a Glyn Johns type approach!). I could see describing the result of this combination of factors a 'warmer' or 'rounder' tone. That makes sense to me. This is the type of discussion that truly excites the drum geek in me though, and yours is the precise type of engagement I love to see. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge! (FWIW I have second video in this series coming shortly.) I think this type of interaction is tremendously useful to people who have never really put their minds on these factors, and a deeper understanding of such can only help drummers (and producers/engineers) to achieve their ideal sound in any given situation. Cheers!
@IndependentDrumLab
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza I love nerding out on drum tech, and you are doing a great job on your videos, and inspiring great discussion. Describing sound is always difficult and subjective, but you are making it understandable and relatable. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts on your INDe snare!
@drumngolf
Жыл бұрын
I’m a big fan on playing thick shelled drums. Not as much of a fan of carrying thick shelled drums. My kit of choice is Yamaha Maple Custom - 7 ply toms, 10 ply kick. Check out Weckl’s Live and very plugged in release. Spectacular drum sounds.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Agreed, totally. Love playing heavy drums -- prefer carrying light ones! ;)
@JohnJohnson-rc6ci
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this input and taking the time to express some facts. I am a full time professional and are very familar with the Sonor book you are reading, furthermore I play a Sonor Signature Kit. The shells are super thick, heavy and super mass. The kick drum shell is 20mm thick with each shell reducing in thickness in relation to size (diameter). The projection and sound of these drums is unmatched, I,ve stacked them up against everything over my years in the industry. Yes thick shells are awesome, head selection is critical to getting that sound. I also have a Sonor Designer Series Kit , same configerations as the Signature Kit but with rims mounting. The shells are thick and reducing also, the sustain is unbelievable and well defined. Really there is nothing between the two Kits when using the same heads on both. Shalom.
@rictor133
Жыл бұрын
Interesting topic, not sure how this plays out beyond theory, I guess there are a lot of variables, the most musical toms I have heard are Sonor Delite’s and Prolite’s - they are huge sounding with pure deep tones, thin shell vintage maple shells with reinforcement hoops, I have heard many thick shell toms - massive - which to me seem to lack the same big character and tone, most of this may be due to the tuning, but I would choose will thin vintage shells on toms any day over thick shells, snares on the other hand require less to e and overtones, snares sound best imo with metal shells, or dense thick wood shells, snares need less tonal resonance, a reason why solid wood snares with massive wood shells produce great snares sounds, with little to no overtones, The topic gets more complex when you are playing drums without recording or using mics this is a great topic, awesome video i can relate to your childhood drum catalogue childhood fascination. Well done!
@JaredLudlam
5 ай бұрын
Great information, thank you.
@s4lroachclip
10 сағат бұрын
A thin shell, are actually way better sounding than thicker shells. A thin shell that vibrates allows the, (as you have said), original strike, (note), to be the focus of the sound. It is perceived to be louder and more boomy. A starclassic maple shell is louder and boomier than Masters maple kit and the major difference is thickness. The thinner shells produced the original note and stays on that note as the over tone decays. Overtones are not welcome if the note doesn't stay true. That is why people muffle their drums. The overtones are not in tune with the initial note. Sound guys go crazy if they have to take the overtones out using limiters and eq. They fight the overtones, unwanted. The intitial punch is the note and all you want. You can add delay or reverb if you need it. Starclassic maple is probably the thinest shells you will find, they resonate and the overtones last, and the overtone does not oscillate with different pitches competing to win. They stay true to the note of the drum head combination with the vibration of the shell. Wht you are saying to me is a 9mm thick shell will sound better than a 5mm shell given all else is the same, and I have to completely disagree. I love old DW collectors, but even I must atmit the thinner star classic maple is more boomy, and resonates more. I prefer DW because Starclassics Maple have too much lasting ringing for me. Dw sets do not require any mufflers or gel, rings or other muffling. The physics I understand but I think there is an error in the interpretation of overtones vs the initial pitch duration.
@carlupthegrove4201
9 ай бұрын
Very fascinating stuff. BTW I have that same Sonor catalog, and several other old ones. Helpful stuff to know the science not just what we believe.
@I.Milanov
6 ай бұрын
everything presented in that catalogue seems logical to me.. but then, what happened that made everybody go for thinner and thinner shells?
@AlVelasquezDrums
Жыл бұрын
Just discovered your channel. I Really love it. I appreciated how you pointing out Perception regarding “softer & louder” relative to overtones. It’s easily misunderstand.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for commenting! Great know that people are benefitting from the discussion. I wanted to discuss Fletcher Munson curves, but the video is long enough as it is!
@bluesgod67
Жыл бұрын
I tend to agree the shell reduces part of the vibrations of the heads and ultimately the sustain. And the reference to the rototoms next to the rack toms is very convincing but I can't help remembering (as the video mentions) the first time I had to use a snare stand for the rack tom at a gig where many bands were performing with the same kit. I hit the rack tom and it was dead. I tried to tune it and lifted the whole thing, because the snare stand was very tight. When I loosen the rack tom to start tuning it, it came back to life right away. I figured - at the time - the tight snare stand blocked the rack tom, preventing it from vibrating ... hence here's the question: how this reconciles with the conclusion of this video? A rack tom tighten by the snare stand cannot vibrate (it it "passive" as the German catalogue says), so it shouldn't absorb the vibrations of the heads and have a longer sustain. Yet it was almost dead until I "freed" it. BTW you re not old, I was 15 in 1982 (and had the same Sonor catalogue)
@ClearPurgeDestroy
Жыл бұрын
Great tutorial. Thank you, really helps to understand how the shell works with the heads.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
You're very welcome! Thank you for your kind words!
@NacekO
11 ай бұрын
Awesome video. I can already see how my drummer friends will tell me this is wrong but it's not. The drum shell acts much like a bridge on a guitar does. A heavy metal bridge on an electric guitar will give it more sustain, allow the string to vibrate for much longer. Makes a ton of sense. Who would've thought that ze germans would know what they're talking about :D As soon as you sterted talking about thicker drums producing a stronger fundamental I immediately thought that was great for recording as far as bleed is concerned. It is the most frustrating thing dealing with cymbal bleed in toms. This must be the reason why the Tama brass snare was so popular for rock recordings.
@radoslavdragnev8797
5 ай бұрын
The best sounding drum i've ever heard was an early 80s Sonor kit was like 40 kilos the bass drum and the 2 toms. Insanely heavy. But the sound was unbelievable.
@m.august3173
Жыл бұрын
I can fully agree to you. I have a Pearl Masters MCX with a 7.5 mm Maple Shell. They have so much tone and Resonance. I can tune them up and down and they always sound wonderful. I can see, that the most great drum companies today are going to manufacture thinner shells. Under 6mm. Even the MCX Series was replaced by the MCT Series, which in my mind is just a save-mony-by-save -material move. MCX had 7,5mm shells, MCT has 5,4 mm. The MCX are sounding way better. The Exceptions im the high end ranges of drums are the Pearl Masterworks Stadium and the Yamaha Phoenix drums. All with a shell over 10mm.
@drskilleto
Жыл бұрын
This kind of explains to me why I like the Yamaha maple customs over the maple custom absolute drums. It’s a bit strange and controdictory since I like the sound of maple better than birch which is a denser wood.
@EJ-ge4st
Жыл бұрын
I’ve been seeing a trend in all the best sounding wood snares and that is the plies are 1mm and over. So for instance a 6 ply maple 7.5mm thickness is 1.25mm a ply. So if they advertised a 20 ply maple snare that is only 5mm thick… then that’s a lot of glue. Also 45* straight bearing edge was a common variable.This is for ply drums not stave or single ply, and not including re-rings. My question to you all is what thickness vs ply and also bearing edge, rim, lug etc have you noticed in the best sounding maple snares?
@woodsnob68
Жыл бұрын
Really nice and well thought out video. I had a copy of that same Sonor catalog way back as well. I like the end where u mention wrapped shells. Crazy how coveted vintage drums where the laminate was wrapped right into the seam early in manufacturing have become. On to something there I do believe. My Pearl BLX birch kit with Long high tension lugs and 7.5/8.5mm shells were the best sounding kit I ever owned. Sound engineers at clubs I played often praised my 24x16 kick. Thunderous!!Only regret was not buying the champagne mist over birdseye maple Pearl Z customs. Even thicker shells. I did play’em. Epic sound and focus. I’m sure most drummers know Todd Sucherman has Pearl make him custom kits featuring thick shells similar to the Sonors he keeps in his collection. One of the best sounds in the business for sure. Keep up the good work!
@jaymeramirez7435
Жыл бұрын
All these words in that catalog are subjective. Someone’s opinion about their own product. A companies personal Bible on their product for you to want them. 🤷🏿 Not to say they aren’t great. I personally can only describe drums as “good” or “not good”… sometimes “meh”
@morgunstyles7253
Жыл бұрын
I explain it like this. Pillows and tabletops.
@jasonleavitt7193
Жыл бұрын
Amazing content. Thank you
@GonzaUY
Жыл бұрын
The "resonace" mith is really true!!
@mattaubuchon4210
Жыл бұрын
I like thick drums and I cannot lie...
@tommieb_03
Жыл бұрын
Love thick shells...always have
@SONORSQ2guy
Жыл бұрын
Steve Smith used Sonor phonic traditional sizes to record all of the studio journey albums.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Yep. Same kit on Escape and Frontiers, I understand: 24x14 kicks, 10x6.5, 12x8 and 13x9 toms, 16x16 and 18x16 floor toms. Not sure what snare for each album, but always understood the rest of the kit to be as above, in what I believe is Sonor's natural oak finish (looks like it from the pics I've seen). He did Escape tour with large, vivid red Sonor Signature kit (w/ squared tom dimensions) and did the 1st half of Frontiers tour with that same kit repainted in a sunburst, but switched to the kit outlined above about halfway through Frontiers tour along with a vintage Radio King snare that had been painted to match the sunburst kit (this is the kit I saw him play in Dallas in June of 1983 -- my first 'real' concert!). But yeah, he recorded with traditional sized Sonor Phonic drums -- thick, heavy 9-ply beech shells!! Woohoo!!
@SONORSQ2guy
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizzaWow you know Steve’s kits well. 👍
@jefflincoln1374
Жыл бұрын
I just came across your channel. I have been messing with drums for more years than I would like to admit. All my experience has been un miked. Now i have learned that sound comes from heads and tuning (I really miss the ludwig chrome dots) i feel shell is hype. The size hight and diameter creates volume of air. This air is moved when the head is hit. The volume of air is compressed in the drum with only the vent hole or no reso head to allow escape.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for your comment! I wouldn't discount the shell's contribution just yet, certainly not for modern, thin shells, the performance of which are far more impacted by the shell material used. The unique characteristics of each type of material (density, hardness, texture, etc.) has a greater impact with thinner/lighter drum shells than the same material in heavier applications, and it can really have a significant impact. I do, generally, prefer playing heavier drums, however.
@jefflincoln1374
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza i do get what you are saying here about density, thickness, and hardness. I will pose the question/ challenge to look into tone wood. I feel this is a sales thing due to the fact that drum shells unless custom made or are acrylic are thin layers of wood shaped and glued together ( plywood) i love the conversations you are having.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
@@jefflincoln1374 Thanks so much! I will tackle tonewoods in a future video, but the nutshell (spoiler alert) is that, so far as I can determine, as long as you aren't on the extremes of typical drum tonewoods (basswood and bubinga, for example, the former being very light and soft and the latter being rather dense and hard) the differences aren't shocking and can be inconsistent log to log. For example maple, birch and beech are fairly similar in performance all other things being similar (thickness of plies, number of plies, finish, etc.). You're not likely to hear much difference between woods within a typical range of professional tone woods. The differences you DO hear from drum to drum within such a range will be more due to fit and finish than the actual tone wood used.
@drumsoup
6 ай бұрын
Great Video! I have a lot of drums, stave, plexiglass, mahogany 3plys, vintage Luds and Slings..But I will tell you, the best sounding kit I have is a Sonor SQ2 beech..Omg! This kit will tear down a wall..clear tone, rich, and plenty of sustain.. Heavy, yes, but nothing sounds like this kit! Thanks for clarifying my suspicions! I got this kit because of Steve Smith's sound in Journey...Im so glad I did!
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
Right on!!!! I keep thinking I'm going to wind up with a vintage Sonor Phonic (9-ply BEECH!!!) kit at some point. I have a 1982 8x14 snare that is 9-ply beech -- thickest shell of my whole collection! A fantastic sounding drum!
@mogollonsalcedo
Ай бұрын
Thanks for this video
@trummpeter
Жыл бұрын
👍🏻 I totally agree with you!
@curtishill109
Жыл бұрын
Great content!
@garthpowell69
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for a thought provoking video. Three glaring points that are missed in this discussion of drum "physics." Precedence Effect of the shell to bottom resonant head, whereby the shell transfers vibration from the top head strike and vibration through the shell to the bottom head at a faster rate than through the air collumn. Time Domain, is something we are incredibly sensitive to (phase versus frequency non-linearities). Constrained-layer dampening where more cobined mass, more layers, more glue and more hardware will dampen the solid material and minimize the precedence effect, and or transfer of enery (and it will do so non-linearly with frequency). Yes, you are correct that we're hearing the bottom head resonating, but you're hearing a mix of the air collumn pressure, wave-forms, AND the precedence effect (which arrives earlier) . Thus, shells and shell composition matter greatly, particualrly for those who want maximum mid and high frequency overtones. That's not everyone, granted. However, one must look at the physics without bending it to your aesthic or manufacturing preference. Enjoy!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Wow! Thank you for that additional information. Looks like I need to do a bit more reading for inclusion in future installments of this series. Thanks so much for being here!
@garthpowell69
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza There's always more information, and I learn something new daily... :) Look at the Waterphone as a classic example of sound traveling through water or solids faster than air, The combination of both water and air in the waterphone's sound chamber with physical movement while playing the instrument, bends the mid to high frequency harmonics and adds more harmonics to what we hear.
@robertriecker7867
7 ай бұрын
Shell tamber is a sales pitch
@jagsjag5849
Жыл бұрын
Ford Drums made this argument years ago. They also received a lot of flack for their honesty. Thank you for opening this dialogue. Hopefully drummers will deal with reality rather than marketing hype.
@Ted_Swayinghill
Жыл бұрын
Mannnnnn how do you have less than 1k subscribers!?!
@Mike-oz5pp
Жыл бұрын
Really gig your channel man! Super thorough wich is great. Thank you 👍
@frankdrumsdrums3926
Жыл бұрын
Best video ever. Finally the real truth about thick shells. Thank you!!! I own many Sonor kits and absolutely confirm everything you say. A phonic (9 plies) or Signature (12 plies) kit had wayyyyyy more decay than sq2 with medium or thin shells.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Is it possible to 'heart' a comment more than once?? ;)
@frankdrumsdrums3926
Жыл бұрын
@@drumdotpizza 💚💙💜🤎🖤♥🧡💛❤💚💚🖤♥
@Drumma75
Жыл бұрын
This is fantastic information! A couple of years ago I we t with a low mass thin shelled kit as my main gigging kit. It was great for the transportation side of it all! But after a year or so I stopped lying to myself and came to the conclusion that the only thing they had going for them was the reduced weight. I switched to Sonor earlier this year, and while its heavier, those 9 plies of Beech have been soooo worth it. Nothing but compliments from sound engineers thus far!
@Vorgaloth
Жыл бұрын
I stumbled onto your channel and am glad I did. Good stuff. I was always skeptical about thinner shells having better resonance but thought any difference would be pretty much unnoticeable. I have a 10pc Tama Artstar Custom with power toms (7mm thick shells) and I often get compliments on how good my drums sound. The thicker shells definitely project better. I would assume they also sustain longer, like how thicker cymbals do.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thicker (heavier) shells project the fundamental tone/pitch of a drum better than thinner shells, though at a distance that could translate to a rather dark sound compared to the sound of a thinner/lighter drum at that same distance which, though a little quieter, would have more clarity as a result of the higher percentage of harmonic in the sound. Those higher frequencies get absorbed by air over distance, but the reduced low end would result in a more balanced tone across a room, for example. And yes, drum with thicker/denser shells will have more sustain, all other things equal.
@westbrad6808
Жыл бұрын
DW noting each drum's NOTE, is to match future add on drums and the set you buy, this def works, toms are NOT on top of each other, tuning range wise
@petartoskov5179
6 ай бұрын
Super explanation!
@houseal
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating. Somewhat counterintuitive but makes sense after you explain it. Just discovered your channel and really enjoying the content.
@michaelvarney4723
Жыл бұрын
Love the series about drum physics, thank you! You should team up with Sounds like a Drum, that collab would be a blast to watch. /Amateur drummer and occasional drum builder.
@bbqking3
Жыл бұрын
I watched the entire video.. and yes I’ve been a victim of marketing.. I have those thin shell lacquered maple drums… but what you’re saying makes so much sense.. looking forward to you next video. BTW. I have never played big enough venues to need mics on my drums and have always had that non studio processed sound. So I spend a lot of time tuning. Great channel. Keep them coming.
@willymccabe6602
Жыл бұрын
I agree with you 100% about the lack of thicker shelled drums in the current marketplace. It's almost impossible to find any major manufacturer offering production line thick shelled drums. Sure, you can custom order a heavy shell from from many of them, and you pay thru the nose for them. Thin and medium shells are great, but the market is utterly flooded with them. It's also time to move away from the 18x22 as the standard size for bass drums. Good luck finding a 16x24 or a 14x26 without having to go custom. It's even hard to find a 16x22. Frustrating time for many of us drummers.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Now you are speaking my language! Not only am I a fan of thicker shells, but all but one of my bass drums are only 14" deep (the other is an 18x24 that I must admit I like a great deal). After several years of recording 18" deep bass drums I got my '68 Ludwig 20/12/16 in psychedelic red and was instantly AMAZED by how bit and authoritative that little 14x20 kick sounded on playback! In the years since I have tried so many combinations, but in general all the 14" drums have much more weight behind them when recorded than do deeper drums which seem to have more punch (but not so much weight). I think things will come full circle in this regard in the not-to-distant future (particularly if we talk a lot about it! :)
@BatManWayneCorp
Жыл бұрын
Try the custom drum shops. They usually offer thick shells and aren't thst much more expensive than name brand premium drums
@glenmorebarchan
Жыл бұрын
Cant wait for part 2 you’re just what i needed Joel! Cant wait to learn all there is to know about drums from you this will really take my music production to the next level
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I certainly hope so! Thanks for the kind words. I'll be catching up with a few more videos shortly that were put on hold when I got sick. So stay tuned!
@intrepiddrums
Жыл бұрын
This video is fantastic, some great information here. Keep up the good work!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
So grateful for your feedback. Thank you!
@MikeMancebo
Жыл бұрын
2:11 don't worry bro, we wont tell a soul.
@joenelson7995
Жыл бұрын
I can corroborate this from my experience. My first 2 pro-level kits had thicker shells and nice sustain. The first was an 80’s era Tama Superstar. The second kit was an early 90’s Yamaha Maple Custom. Tuned right with single-ply heads, they would sustain for days. For some reason, I sold those and “upgraded” to an Absolute set, with much thinner shells. Actually, the toms sounded great…until I mounted them. The YESS mount system on those thin shells choked the sound significantly! And because the spaces between the hoops and the lug casings were too small, I could not use RIMMS mounts. That set didn’t last long. I actually went back to the 80’s Tamas.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I'm an 80s Tama fan. My first new kit was 80s Imperialstar, and I have several snare drums plus a 1st Gen Royalstar Brazilian Grain kit (the good version) that I really dig.
@ClansmanK
6 ай бұрын
I laugh about this quite a bit. I have a 'thinner" maple kit because I Like how they feel. If you think about it thinner shells do the same thing as double ply and or thicker heads. I like single ply heads (mid. weight) I have since I grew up and left the Neanderthal hatchet murderer strike to kill mentality. It helped by watching real drummers that had plenty of power and way better sound in every aspect. But the grace I witnessed them using in their technique while playing with piqued my interest and knew I had to develope this. Not long after that I discovered Gary Chester's material and Dom Famularo's. I had discovered a complete rethink. Enertia became my best friend along with its twin brother rebound. All these points you have made ( and thanks for clearing up the Germlish) in the Sonor dialog) are very true. So if somebody wants to make the point about resonating shells ask them why they/we don't mic the shells then? Another great video sir.
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
Excellent comments, thank you!!!
@LDdrums20
Жыл бұрын
Invaluable content. I use to have a 9mm shell drums. Very resonant. Super loud!
@edgartrejos7226
Ай бұрын
00:26. You got me
@TheAtheistworld
8 ай бұрын
Brother, which drums nowadays have these thick heavy shells and nice sharp bearing edges?? Please recommend. Thnxx brother ❤
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
Nowadays? Not sure. Seriously, I would call the folks at Drum Center of Portsmouth. They know their stuff about drums and can match your requirements to current production drums. I myself am more of a vintage (er... old) guy, loving the older Tama and Ludwig drums. I'm sorry I can't be more help, but DCP is great. Give them a call! Ask for Tony.
@f0inzap
Жыл бұрын
Hi Joel. Thanks for a really great video! I really enjoy the topic and the nerdiness level. :) It would be really cool if could make a video demonstrating and proving this insight. I'm thinking comparing different types of shell so we can hear the difference. Could that be something for a video...? All the best, --Stephen
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I SOOO want to do this, but still trying to figure out how to do it as scientifically as possible without costing myself a fortune for a bunch of custom drums. I will be doing some demonstration videos to support all my hot air, though. I'm still sorting out the most appropriate/affordable/practical way to do so. All of my observations have been made over decades of working with drums, and while all the various makes also meant various edges, dimension ratios, types of heads, etc., the cumulative result has revealed repeatable, demonstrable realities. I just need to figure out how to demonstrate this in a single video....
@markolsen4394
Жыл бұрын
A Great sounding kit and a kit in tune with the Track are Two Different things; examples of band missing the mark, RHCP, Nirvana( Steve Albini ), Green Day; these kits are often tuned too tight and choked. Check Spring Session M, Terry Bozzio Missing Persons a Master Class in drum tones and tuning.All Do Respect
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
YES!! It seems people are generally reluctant to publicly criticize (maybe too harsh a word) hugely popular records, but I'm with you! In the 90s, particularly, shallow/piccolo snares were the rage (not Nirvana, but Alice In Chains, Green Day, Spin Doctors, etc.), and this just exacerbated the problem (though I still dig a lot of those records anyway... just not so much the drum tones). In all honesty one of my all time favorite drum kit sounds (a kit that really fit the track fabulously) is the kit in Joan Osborne's "One Of Us." The perfect blend or organic clarity, refinement, and brute rawness. LOVE those drums!
@jaymeramirez7435
Жыл бұрын
Love the channel!
@MattGarwood777
Жыл бұрын
so I can’t sleep and I find your channel. I watched and took flippin’ notes. can’t WAIT to experiment in my basement recording studio tomorrow! seriously great content and please keep it coming!
@kylemccombmusic
Жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Any comment on why metal drums sound the way they do? I have a very heavy brass snare (1963 Super-Sensitive) that is explosive, even chirpy. Lots of fundamental but very bright overtones as well. I'm very much in the "dry, dead, drums" camp personally but a lot of these thinner drums just do not have enough low end
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for your comments! I haven't gotten to shell material yet, but will in the forthcoming video. Metal drums are very hard and reflective compared to wooden drums. They have much. more high frequency content, particularly compared to a wooden drum of coarse grain (lauan, for example), particularly if the wooden drum's interior is not sealed (the wood just sucks up high frequency energy like a sponge, so it really needs to be sealed for a more balanced tone). But metal drums are hard and reflective, and in the case of brass and steel, etc. they are rather dense (aluminum not as much), so they tend to produce a strong fundamental note as well. Wooden drums are softer material, so don't 'riiiiing' like a stout metal drum does (all other things being equal) -- this is particularly true of older wooden drums which tend to have a higher wood-to-glue ratio, an are, therefore, softer material overall (glue can be quite hard when dry, so modern shells with ultra-thin veneers tend to be harder overall than shells made with thicker veneers but the same amount of glue between plies). I'm working on my 'drum shell material' video (I'll have a snappier name for it before it's released, I'm sure ;) Stay tuned, thanks!
@mircorodeghiero8320
Жыл бұрын
Joel, another question came to my mind. What about those extra-thick snare shells? Like 30 plies.... the sound "seems" a kind of muffled....or is it only an impression? Much different however from thick solid shells or stave shells.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
When it comes to the uber thick-shelled snare drums I don't have a lot of experience with them personally. I did once have a Tama 14-ply snare drum (from the late 80s) that was LOUD, but didn't seem to produce a large tone, particularly, though it definitely wasn't muffled. Snares are a little weird when it comes to sustain, however, because the snare side head is usually very tight, and the bottom edge includes snare beds, which pretty much kill the bottom head's ability to resonate at all.
@s4lroachclip
11 сағат бұрын
All you need to know is DW Collectors series is the best you can ever hope to own. (My opinion is the only one that is right...just kidding)
@ben100976
8 ай бұрын
Great vid. Lot of comments so sorry if i repeat others, but Steve Smith was playing a Sonor lite cream lacquer in Journey. Keep the good job, great video again.
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
Not oak finish?
@scottfreberg3517
Жыл бұрын
Great video. I've always been a huge Steve Smith fan (I'm 61) and the toms sound his Phonic kit has on the tune Faithfully is the best sound ever. I have an SQ2 beech kit with medium racks and thin floors. They have plenty of sustain. I thought of ordering all heavy shells but chickened out. I gig weekly so maybe I did myself a favor by not getting all heavy shells! I may buy a Phonic kit one day. Also, you mention your red Ludwig kit and how much you love their sound, is it a Classic Maple kit?
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I love heavy shells, but I do tire of carrying them! My red sparkle Ludwig kit is a heavy maple/poplar shell, 6-ply, from the late 1970s. I'm honestly not sure what Ludwig called these (I don' know that they had a name for them... seems they named the cheaper lines (Standard, Club Date, etc.) but not so much the top-of-the-line drums, though in the 60s catalogs I have seen their top line called "Classic," so perhaps that's what it would be referred to? In any event they were the top line, professional Ludwig Drums available at the time. Now they make lots of different high quality lines (using maple, birch, etc.), but they only had one top line in the 70s, and these are they! Thanks for your comments!
@MediaCubeCleveland
6 ай бұрын
With this knowledge, wouldn’t it make sense for a drum set to have thinner shells (and potentially slightly rounder bearing edges) as the drum diameter gets larger? You could create more even sustain around the drums (or at least get them closer).
@drumdotpizza
6 ай бұрын
That is a great question that I would love to explore. Interestingly, Yamaha, with their Phoenix drums, have varying edges depending on the size of the drums, BUT, the reverse seems to be their approach. Bass drums have sharpest edges, small toms the roundest. ???? They charge an absolute fortune for those drums, and I've heard nothing but great things about them (though I have never played them myself). I really need to do some digging to see what else is at play here. Logic is good, but more observation is probably warranted. Thanks for chiming in!!!
@jamesmay1322
Жыл бұрын
By the way, resonance only has one meaning in physics. i.e. the frequency at which the output of the system (be that current, voltage, sound waves) drastically increases disproportionately compared to the input. Put another way, you sweep the input frequency (the driving frequency) at the same level and the output drastically increases at a particular frequency. That's the resonance frequency of that "system". For physical things such as drum shells it's also known as "natural" resonant frequency, which is the fundamental frequency (read note or tone) you hear when you tap a drum shell (without any attachements). You're correct it's something completely different to sustain. One of the attributes of resonance is Q. Q determines the "sharpness" of the resonance peak. In reality, nearly all resonant systems (particularly physical ones) are damped to some degree. It's the amount of damping that determines how long a resonant note will "ring" or sustain.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I'm always interested in what people mean by the terms they use. I hear 'resonance' or 'resonant' all the time, but often it seems they are referring to sustain rather than actual resonance, which is why I posed the question. I have used the term when meaning sustain, so I'm trying to change that moving forward (certainly for the sake of clarity in future video discussions). Words have value, and I like to use the right words if possible. Perhaps I should make a glossary video?? Hmmm...
@tcdrums
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting. One of the things I wished you had gone into (maybe another video idea) is why on might choose the sound lf thinner drums for certain kinds of music. What comes to mind is fast and complex music where you want the drums to have an explosive and articulate sound. I also think it would be super cool to record two different drum kits to demonstrate exactly what you are talking about. Also could discuss heads. Why do most rock drummers choose two ply heads? They definitely make the drums sound beefier and more focused… but single ply clear heads tuned low can sound fat when recorded…
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for your comment! The comparison video you suggest is already in the works (I was assuming more pushback than I have actually received so far, so was planning to a video to demonstrate this). And yes, drumming styles that are fast with lots of chops benefit from the shorter sustain and greater attack/articulation of thinner shells. 2-ply heads can assist here as well as they reduce sustain as well providing a sense of greater articulation (though really just a smaller percentage of decay). I have to wonder how much of current drumming fashion is a result of, well, fashion? Do players choose 2-ply heads because of the merits of 2-ply heads, or because their favorite player uses them? Hard to know. Part of my series on drum physics will discuss the basics of drum heads (essentially single and dual ply -- most everything falls into one or the other with other less significant, though still relevant factors contributing). I would really love people to know what sound they want and choose the gear that will assist them in creating it rather than buying what marketing or a cult of personality tells them to without regard for the tone appropriate for their application.
@richarddavis5542
Жыл бұрын
My biggest take away from this is how manufacturers "market" the construction and materials of their drums. The marketing messaging is often in conflict with science or physics. Electronics companies (amps, processors) also are guilty in playing fast and loose. I would love to see an Electronics Engineer disassemble all the BS surrounding guitar effects pedals.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Well, to some degree that is definitely true... I have seen some marketing that just flat doesn't make sense, but mostly I think it's about preference and trying to convince people that one's idea of quality is the right or 'best' idea. But yeah, lots of hooey flying around in marketing.
@jamesmay1322
Жыл бұрын
I think you'll find that actually the shell takes it's energy from both the head AND the vibrating air within the shell when the head is hit. So the natural resonance of the drum shell has a far more complex impact on the sound of the drum than just "sucking" the energy out of the head and reducing it's sustain. It's very similar to what happens in hi-fi speakers, if the cabinet has any vibrations it "colours" the sound of the speaker because it impacts the linearity of the speaker cone's response, both in an additive and subtractive way depending on the way the resonance in the cabinet affects the pressure of the interior of the cabinet at particular frequencies. Exactly the same physics process is happening in a drum when you hit the head.
@kolchek1000
Жыл бұрын
I remember that catalogue too & those concepts stayed with me enough for me to be skeptical about this whole “thin resonant shell” marketing spiel. So, are the drum manufacturers just trying to obscure cost cutting (using less wood)?
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
I am convinced that many manufacturers are simply following current convention for drum manufacturing without much actual consideration of physics/acoustics to obtain a given objective for the performance of the drum. 'Better' drums involve more fit and finish than cheaper drums (even with shells of similar veneers). Cost is always a consideration, of course, for manufacture, but so is the ease of sales. I can't be certain, of course, but I suspect many manufacturers simply aren't interested in trying to blaze a new path.
@GonzaUY
Жыл бұрын
I have bought recently a dw purpleheart snare drum very dense and thick I love it! What about 6 ply?? Is still that really thin? The ludwig vintage you mention how many plies it has?
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
My late 70s Ludwig kit is 6-ply, but the plies back then were MUCH thicker (nearly twice as thick) than plies used in modern drums -- more wood, less glue by percentage. It is interesting to me that as the idea of thinner shells being more vibrant sounding than thicker shells became the convention of drum design (starting in the latter 80s) companies decided not to limit the number of plies (as Tama did with their Artstar line in 1983) but rather to use the same number of thinner veneers with just as much glue (yielding a shell with higher glue percentage and greater overall stiffness with lower pitch). This is not like the earlier 3-ply construction used by Ludwig, Slingerland, etc. in their vintage drums before the early 1970s. The result is a thin shell, yes, but nothing like that vintage approach (particularly with the thicker central ply of much softer poplar used by those companies in those old drums).
@carljohnmccracken2713
Жыл бұрын
loved this
@MrBeen992
Жыл бұрын
3:01 I am not a native english speaker but I think can drums, apart from maybe the tom toms, have a fundamental pitch-tone-frequency ? If they have it, it is relatively low compared to their overtones, right ?
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Yes, very low (in the low 100s of Hz). Yet the attack and liveliness of drums is in the kHz.
@coltonhuntmusic
10 ай бұрын
What model drums are the thickest? I’ve been searching since watching your video and no dice online lol
@drumdotpizza
10 ай бұрын
Late 70s/early 80s Ludwigs are heavy/thick 6-ply maple poplar, but even heavier shells would be 80s era Tama Superstars (with no reinforcing rings). HEAVY 6-ply shells (six THICK plies), 100% birch. Did I say HEAVY?? Great drums! I'm on the lookout for an aquamarine stained Superstar from the early 80s. My favorite finish for those drums. Killer drums! Loud and amazing fundamental tone.
@andrewpazmany9023
Жыл бұрын
Great video. I completely agree with the message that the shell does not contribute to the sound through resonance, but may rob energy from the drum head by resonating and thereby, indirectly, altering the sound. I always questioned adds and videos talking about the "warm sound of mahogany", etc... It would be interesting to test the thickness and weight threshold beyond which it is impreceivable to hear a difference, and only size, edge shape and head determine the sound.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
It really is a big bundle of variables that ARE different, but not always substantively so (though I do find that a drum's mass is one of the bigger factors for whether or not I dig a drum). Most of the variables between wood drums truly goes out the window when a mic is used to 'capture' the sound. At that point it's really up to the signal path and processing to determine how the drum is perceived. So while all of this IS relevant and interesting, in practice (modern practice, that is... TONS of mics) it is less critical than it used to be. But I still LOVE it!
@alsdrumcorner7311
Жыл бұрын
Very interesting and insightful video Joel, and I must admit has given me some food for thought. As someone who reviews drums and is a definite drum geek (happily watched it all, my videos aren't exactly short either!), I often refer to things like resonance, projection etc and even though I think I know what I'm trying to say, it can be hard to articulate! Will continue to follow the channel, great content!
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for the encouragement! Glad to have you here!
@jonashellborg8320
Жыл бұрын
I have a thin shell snare drum made of cheaper maple, and one thicker made of brass. The brass drum definitely carries on for longer and feels louder. The thin one sounds thin close up because of overtones, more full further away since in my experience overtones don’t travel far. This video and the talking absolutely matched my experience.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Correct! Overtones (high frequencies) are absorbed and diffused by air molecules... they don't get far, so all drums will have a purer, mellower tone at a distance. The drum with greater mass, however, will have a louder fundamental tone. ;)
@badwolfsat5
Жыл бұрын
"Smoothness inside the shell matters". It made me wonder if the old Rocker II Ludwig toms suffered from their internal coating. It almost looked like splatter paint and it most definitely wasn't smooth.
@drumdotpizza
Жыл бұрын
Well... smoothness isn't quite as critical in my experience as whether or not the wood is sealed. The zolacoat/flectone coating used in some drums feels rough, yes, but it actually seals the wood and keeps the grain from absorbing high frequencies produced through playing. Cheaper drums don't seal the wood (at all, quite often), and those drums, even with thin, vibrant shells sound dull compared to their higher end counterparts. So I would argue that sealing wood is more important than a truly smooth surface. In fact, Pearl actually gloss coated the interior of some lines of their drums awhile back (maybe they still do on some?), and I wasn't a fan of the sound they produced. Often times a coat or two of tung oil is more than enough to seal the wood, creating a full frequency response, while keeping the woody tone we so often like!
@Zimi1987
Жыл бұрын
Fundamental note, yes, the german word is "Ton", so that happened in the translation.
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