Nuanced and thoughtful conversation about Star Wars with people talking like adults about the themes of The Acolyte made me fall in love with this podcast. It’s an oasis among the madness and people treating art as they were commenting sports and dealing in absolutes. Keep the excellent work, gang.
@OrionInSpace
Ай бұрын
This is why I watch them because even though I thought that this was the worst episode of the season so far and just not very good television filmmaking wise i am still here too hear these guys talk about it because it brings me down to a level to understand how it relates to themes and Star Wars as a whole.
@alexpolk9325
Ай бұрын
Yes, totally agree with you. I was extremely frustrated by episode 7 and am struggling with liking the Accolyte as a whole, but am so grateful for the ForceCenter team breaking down the themes and helping me to look past the issues I have with the execution of the show-of which I have “maaany” (in the voice of the chanting witches, lol)!
@arturobravo701
Ай бұрын
This is the best starwars podcast. Really helps to increase my interest in shows by having a deep conversation with an analyze of the story beats, and not just saying: this show sucks, bad story telling, bad actors etc.. I hate that the internet and KZitem has become a place for hate and negativism instead of a place for creativity and conversation.
@SaviorCross
Ай бұрын
It's not "hate" saying a show is bad. As much as you like, it its fine for someone to not like it.
@arturobravo701
Ай бұрын
@@SaviorCross all I see is hate and bad criticism. Nobody gives any objective opinion and analyze of things anymore. Some people read some stuff about this show before it aired and already made something in their mind, either good or bad. Or it's them seeing things through their political opinion.
@Osvetnik1138
Ай бұрын
Yay, Jennifer is back! Hope school is going well!
@Barf-Barfolomew
Ай бұрын
I was going to say the same. much respect for going back to school.
@Bleepurchin
Ай бұрын
Thanks for bringing us intelligent discussions about The Acolyte guys. For being open to the choices being made by the show on topics which seem to be so triggering to people.
@Piratesi666
Ай бұрын
Ive just discovered this channel. I’m in my late thirties and have grown up with SW all my life, so I’m glad to see some grown ups talking about the show rather than culture war and people screaming “tRaSh!” into a camera. I found it really interesting, especially the grey areas of the jedi and the different perspectives. I felt like this was a tragic episode, lots of misunderstandings and terrible choices. It made sense why Kalnacca went into isolation (using his Claws in a fight,(madclaw)), Torbins suicide, Sols guilt with Ohsa, it all paid off for me.
@JacksunGavin
Ай бұрын
Gotta hit Joseph with a "well said" on the binary / jump to conclusions talk. You guys make me so happy to love this franchise. Thanks for the nuanced conversations. Hope to share a beer some day and discuss.
@jackmc5167
Ай бұрын
I think this is my least favourite live action Star Wars to date but I will always love to listen to ForceCenter discuss the Galaxy far far away. Who knows what the future holds? my opinion on Last Jedi is has changed drastically over the years because of listening to people like you talk about what you love about it, hopefully something eventually clicks that makes me appreciate The Acolyte for more than just it’s sensational fight choreography and use of weird little dudes 😊
@alfje5492
Ай бұрын
Very much my feelings about this series: I like the ideas and that it's outside of the Skywalker bubble, but I still don't click with it. Kenobi and Ahsoka had plenty of issues, but I already had a connection to some of the characters, so it was easier to forgive the problems. I'm sure I'll like this more once there's more connective tissue (like the Clone Wars did for the Prequels).
@mariobro5471
Ай бұрын
This might be my favorite ForceCenter discussion ever, fully acknowledging the nuances of the situation without calling either side evil. I’m at my lowest regarding the internet’s discourse around a Star Wars episode since finishing the Book of Boba Fett episode with the colorful scooters. It’s not necessarily about people’s individual opinions being wrong; it’s the flattening or focusing of the discussion to only one negative aspect of an episode filled with so many complex ideas. So much of what I saw on Reddit yesterday and another review I listened to today are just so adamant that the Jedi and Sol are evil. Usually, I wait to watch your reviews first before venturing elsewhere on the internet to see more people's thoughts, as I trust and believe your positive and theme-focused approach is the most fulfilling way to discuss media. But every now and then, I’m just so hyped after watching a new episode and don’t have the patience to wait to listen to your review the next night. I think, "No way the majority won’t love this too," and go on Reddit, where there’s a good chance I’m proven very wrong.
@ForceCenter
Ай бұрын
Thanks for listening and the support!
@zaurijunior
Ай бұрын
Also, what Joseph and Jennifer are talking about when it comes to ‘was Sol right about Osha being in danger’, I think what is fascinating and brilliant about the episodes Choice and Destiny is that it’s not just about the duality that it’s centered this show, but ambiguity. At same time that what Sol killing Aniseya is unforgivable and completely makes us understand Mae’s hunger for revenge, we don’t really know what the Ascension was and when she was turning into smoke, it seemed like something was going on with Mae as well. Sol is obviously blind by his own passions and wants to the point that he confuses Mae with Osha, but at same time, what did he felt when Aniseya was turning into smoke? Even if the line about sacrifice that Mae told during her test is a misquote of what Aniseya said in the previous episode, we don’t really know what the Ascension is. That’s what is fascinating about this episode, the ambiguity. And maybe even if we get a second season and I hope we do, maybe we should never know the full truth, just like Kurosawa’s Rashomon.
@Igor_the_Mad
Ай бұрын
This episode was superb, and really hit a lot of the core tensions within Star Wars' moral framework head-on in a way we rarely see. Star Wars generally believes that any two people or groups of people who have genuinely good intentions and operate in good faith can surmount any conflict through democratic communication and interplay of cultures and ideas. As well, SW believes trusting your instincts is usually the best way to go as it believes people have an innate sense of goodness and decency that is common to everyone. This episode takes that very idealistic core and looks at it in such a harsh way that deconstructs the traditional stance; the nature of cultural communication and human instinct being incredibly biased and prone to overreaction and quick decisions means that a series of misunderstandings spiral out of control even when no one wants the conflict. All of this compounded by the tension of the Jedi as both secular authority and religious institution. The entire episode speaks to my deep fascination for cults, militias, communes, and generally any group of insular people who have a standoff with the legitimate authority of the land a la the Waco Siege or Ruby Ridge. I love how Star Wars is taking such a deep and poignant look at some very uncomfortable topics in this episode, but it all will fall on the finale to truly reaffirm the Jedi after such a stumble. I personally don't trust the witches still; if Mother Aniseya's mind-assault of Torbin wasn't so deliberately sexy, it would be disturbing for many more people. I have so many thoughts about this episode, but I'll stop ranting now. XD
@JoeyPeligro69
Ай бұрын
This is sooooo well written!!!
@michaelmccarstle4527
Ай бұрын
A ForceCenter well said, friend. And I appreciate you covering several things so I don't have to in my comment. Haha.
@SaviorCross
Ай бұрын
Episode was poorly written. Hense the low reception.
@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord
Ай бұрын
@@JoeyPeligro69nice joke
@auntvesuvi3872
Ай бұрын
Thanks, Joseph! Thanks, Ken! Thanks and welcome back, Jennifer! 🌑 The "we must be sacrificed" misquote little 'Mae' relayed to 'Indara' and 'Sol' had a huge impact. They literally thought the girls were in mortal danger. 'Aniseya' actually said, "It is about sacrificing a *part* of ourselves". 🔸 It's also wild to learn that 'Sol' was imposing his own wants (to have a Padawan... even though he might not be ready) onto the situation. He even almost lost his temper on 'Indara' at the end. That shows a very un-Jedi-like conflict that adds to his motivations. 🔸 And don't get me started on 'Torbin' being immature, bored and homesick. 🙄
@anakincrespin
Ай бұрын
Also- glad we kind of got justice for the Jedi ❤😅
@roninsohei
Ай бұрын
One thing that everyone seems to glance over is how Osha had the Jedi symbol and a lightsaber in her sketchbook. It makes me think that maybe Sol is subconsciously picking up on Osha's wish of being a jedi and that's why he's so persistent in wanting to train her, kinda like Grogu calling out to Luke.
@fredrico665
Ай бұрын
very insightful and nuanced discussions. love hearing your thoughts. you are my favorite star war podcast. I love the themes of this show.
@calvinpanho
Ай бұрын
I find it a bit crazy watching week after week the podcast commenting on how great it is something i find so deeply horrible. But it's REALLY great for me to watch the trio commenting, it always helps me remember that art is subjective, and many people can LOVE something i hate or the other way around! In the end, i love the passion you guys have, it's uplifting!
@the_vegan_jedi
Ай бұрын
As usual, a masterclass in dissecting and breaking down the themes
@anakincrespin
Ай бұрын
I loved this episode, it was kind of heartbreaking but also sooo satisfying on so many levels ❤
@Rebecca_DC0
Ай бұрын
Excellent discussion as always! The whole situation was a mess of grave misunderstandings and good intentions paving the road to hell. I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out in the finale next week.
@spedtchr25
Ай бұрын
I’m still loving the show. I like it because it is so different. I grew up with OT and I remember seeing them in the theatre. I have always loved Star Wars and the OT will always be my favourite ❤️ . I admit it was weird to have other story arcs at first, but I tried to keep an open mind. I don’t put present day society issues, etc. in how I view the story because it is a fantasy and we don’t live in that world. I can therefore enjoy the story. I am really enjoying the conversations about the stories and hearing other opinions. I just ignore the ones that are negative for no reason. Also, is it possible Sol is not as good as he seems?
@Piratesi666
Ай бұрын
Sol’s muddy past has made him more interesting for me. Seems like a lot of people want a more binary Good/Evil story without any nuance. Life isnt black and white, people arent perfect. And neither were the Jedi. I think some people can’t handle that.
@Barf-Barfolomew
Ай бұрын
It’s always exciting for me to see a new force center. It was Such a heartbreaking episode. A mother is murdered in front of her daughter & partner 😢 I feel so bad for Sol. His instant regret that he showed brought tears to my eyes when he refused to fight Korill. Next Tuesday can’t come fast enough! MTFBWY….always
@GhoulishGrinMedia
Ай бұрын
A truly wonderful in depth discussion on the unfolding outcome of this tragedy. Great stuff!
@Vulcanerd
Ай бұрын
I don’t always agree with you guys (and you never have asked me or any of us audience to do that), but I always, always, always appreciate the thoughtful deep dives into these episodes so thank you.
@_aprilfresh685
Ай бұрын
A disorder that needs to be treated...wow!! Powerful!
@ichigen511
Ай бұрын
Love this channel and enjoy listening to reasonable minded fans (that's you guys) talk about Star Wars, the thing they LIKE. I've been up and down all my life with Star Wars. I was 5 years old one hot summer day when Han shot Greedo first in 1977. I've been a fan ever since. It's been a rollercoaster. You know what? Rollercoasters are kind of... well they're really fun! But sometimes rollercoasters are.... well, ouch I just banged my head, yeah not that great. It's almost like family. Star Wars is like a family member. You love the ever living shit out of your family member, but sometimes they do something that... you know.... maybe this isn't what we wanted them to do. But guess what? It's your family member! You love your family member! LOL anyways i'm more of the glass half full kinda Star Wars fan. I just like being in the galaxy. The droids are special. We got Jedi and Sith and hyperspace lore and good v bad and coming of age and seflish v selfless. It's a timeless dance and many of us are just simply enjoying the "rollercoaster" even if we get nauseous and what not. The Acolyte? I'm enjoying this misfit Jedi clan (the orginal 4 AND Jecki and Yord RIP) that's never experienced Sith and getting caught up in a CPS clusterfuck. It's fun! It's Star Wars. THIS time it's a space fairytale about sisters deciding to stay with family (selfless) or go on an adventure (selfish) and the bumbling Jedi (CPS). Real life consequences we all can get behind. We can all relate. Or at least we can try. I realize much of the fandom is angry but we know this is not the first time. Just ask Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd, they know. But if anybody's having a hard time dealing with the fandom just remember this. They are just angry little man "children" who didn't get the toys they wanted for Christmas so they're mad at mommy and daddy. That's how I look at them. Peace!
@tylerpifer5966
Ай бұрын
As always I appreciate the positive outlook on the show, even though I disagree. I wish more Star Wars channels had conversations like this. I wish I was on the same page!
@rowdystaudi
Ай бұрын
They're great! Force Center, Star Wars Explained, and TRB (The Resistance Broadcast) are always so fun and positive, even when they disagree with stuff or dont love it.
@michaelmccarstle4527
Ай бұрын
So, I want to approach this particular topic very carefully, because it is a very important one. Jen briefly mentioned that the Jedi seemed like colonizers here, but I get the feeling that she might have shifted in that stance a bit by the end(if I'm wrong, please correct me). I watched another review from someone who previously mostly defended the show until this episode, but completely turned on it and the Jedi, espousing accusations of them actually being colonizers and intentionally infringing on the sovereignty of the witches. There are plenty of stories to be told about the horrors of colonization, but this just is not one of them. I feel like in the case of that other reviewer, that is almost an intentional misreading of the situation, bringing something into the show that just isn't there. It's dipping into the old "well, the Jedi just take babies from their families to brainwash them." No. That is just very blatantly not the story being told. The Jedi ask permission from the families to train children. And it is made pretty clear in other stories that a family has every right to simply say no. That said, the Jedi here were on the planet to peacefully conduct research, and stumbled upon the coven. And they saw not what they deemed just people who were different and therefore bad, but they saw children in a situation that seemed actively dangerous and with the potential to get worse for said children. Did they handle the situation wrong? Yes. A resounding yes. They should have slowed down and asked more questions. It makes sense that Sol would dedicate his life to trying to teach others about trying to think things through. It makes sense that after experiencing what he did, Torbin would dedicate himself to never letting anyone close ever again, to the most intense degree. It makes sense that Kelnacca would be driven to obsess over the culture of the coven in solitude. It makes sense that Indara would want to protect Osha from it all and when it came down to it, she gave Mae the revenge she thought she needed. It's a tragedy of near Shakespearean levels. It might not be justice for the Jedi, but it's a damn good story of Jedi who just wanted to do the right thing and unfortunately failed.
@edbeckr
Ай бұрын
I agree. I saw this episode as noble intentions gone awry.
@ZachBobBob
Ай бұрын
Geek Buddies review? 😅
@hoos3014
Ай бұрын
@@ZachBobBobYup
@prosperoeaton8201
Ай бұрын
Force Center remains one of the rare safe spaces in the Star Wars podcast and video world. I'm really enjoying The Acolyte. I love all of the shows, but this close to the top. The tenor in the online Star Wars community is depressing, discouraging, and irritating. Thanks for being a ray of hope, along with programs such as Explained, Skytalkers, Holy Snokes, and Page Turners They Were Not.
@thelodownshow313
Ай бұрын
Good deep dive discussion
@varsas
Ай бұрын
Re: Torbin - I think part of him wanting to return was about what he mentioned iirc, about purpose. With his poor background and his elevation to being a Jedi living at the top level of Coruscant, perhaps he feels that need for loftier purpose more keenly. This is then manipulated.
@rodneyhoward7828
Ай бұрын
There is an old saying: the road to hell is paved with good intentions
@Jplusk200
Ай бұрын
Great analysis
@darklorddysart
Ай бұрын
Interesting to note that there must have been some time before returning from the mission and Torbin taking the vow. By the time we catch up he’s grey, balding and a master. I’d forgotten that and just presumed he went straight into the vow post Brendok
@dawgfanjim
Ай бұрын
Early on Sol said"I wanted to save you both"
@annalivia1308
Ай бұрын
Destiny is not the precursor to tragedy. Tragedy is born from choice, the kind of choice where no matter what your choice is there will be consequences. Had Sol not wanted to get Osha (and Mae) out of it it might have meant the sacrifice (death) of one of them. What happens when you rejoin an essence that is present in two bodies? One of them is not needed any more. On the other hand, are you familiar with the judgement of Solomon where the true mother loves her child so much that she rather has Solomon give it to someone else than having it sliced in two and killed? 🤔 With a slight twist here as there are not 2, but 3 "mothers" fighting over Osha. The "pretender" here is the horned mother - they were already fighting over who the real mother is in ep3 (I carried them - I created them). Sol could not tell Osha and Mae apart in ep7 either - he only realized it was not Osha seeing her mother killed but Mae (because of the tattoo). It's also the reason why they keep oscillating, especially Mae - I will surrender, no I won't and etc. Undeniably a Blair Witch element with Torbin panicking.
@gustavoolivieri6568
Ай бұрын
Wow! You guys are amazing! I still don't like the series, it's still weird to me, I still think the narrative is too crazy, the characters decisions don't seem to make sense, but I also like you guys' reading about it, and how you take such depth from what you see there. 🧡
@CATDRL2
Ай бұрын
Tobin took the poison so easily because of the witch Mother was in his head, and the same for the Wookie engraving those symbols on the wall of his hut, was from all those witches in his head.
@MrSubstance
Ай бұрын
@19:30 Osha wanted to be different way before she met Sol. She didn't want to do the ascension. If the Jedi hadn't offered her the choice, rightly or wrongly, to take the test and potentially leave with them, then she would have been trapped in a culture that she didn't want to be in - or at least would force her to adopt the practices and insular lifestyle it came with. Also, Sol saw the mother virtually throw them to the ground - which is why he said, "They don't treat them like children" or something like that.
@cloverraven
Ай бұрын
These ideas can be made to work, to get where we need the story to end up. But what we see on screen does a poor job of conveying all of these things. It takes us, or a show like this to fill in some weird writing, directing, editing gaps.
@arturobravo701
Ай бұрын
I love this show. So much better than other people just complaining about starwras. I feel mostly it's about people being disappointed for something they didn't get. I feel people just wanted a show about sith and Jedi. And that would have been cool but at the same time it's nice to get something unexpected that lifts up some controversies about the jedi. It was lucas who made the jedi celibat, so the question arises how do they multiply? Well they find force sensitive children but what conflicts does that bring? I generally beleive Sol had a rough badground before he entered the jedi and found his family. So when he sees these children he projects himself. Plus he ses children in a covenent of just women so he must wonder how did they get these children? Were they stolen? I like this show more than I was expecting. I have been disappointed with boba, obi wan, mando 3 and was not planing on seing the show.
@thelodownshow313
Ай бұрын
Willow enter the sandman popped me
@ZachBobBob
Ай бұрын
I did like that this episode redeemed the Jedi and showed they weren't just child stealing colonialist maniacs like episode 3 seemed to be saying. Although I didn't really understand Sol's hyper-fixation on Osha, that felt a bit suspect to me.
@thatguy8430
Ай бұрын
I have to agree with Joseph... the mother would have forced Osha to go through with the ascension which seemed like a permanent life choice. Even when Indara asked Mae what "ascension" was... she had no idea, even quoting her mother incorrectly. Sounds kind of abusive to me, and I'm sure any adults who had to suffer life long problems because they were forced, by their family or parents, to do something they didn't want to do as a child would agree. A lot of people are blaming the Jedi of over stepping. But what if one of the children did have to die for the ascension (interesting comment made by @annalivia1308). Would they say well at least the Jedi didn't overstep? Or would they say that the Jedi should have protected them? Also its always interesting to see a emotional response from people. They always seem to want to assign blame. When in fact everyone in the story was equally to blame. The only victims were the children (as children). Just because you were a victim in the past, doesn't give you the right to victimize others. People feel the show is putting a moral dilemma in front of them, to figure it out. They don't see there is no right answer. Mistakes happen, life is tragic. They don't see the connection, between episode one and seven. They first thing you hear from Sol is, "close your eyes....your eyes can deceive you." And when Osha falls off the cliff, Sol uses the force to hold her up... and not the whole mountain side. Learn from your mistakes, due better, but you will still have to live with the consequences of the choices you made in life.
@annalivia1308
Ай бұрын
I find it funny how Jennifer does not see the irony of the public school system and "representative" teachers. What's that? Taking children away from families?
@cloverraven
Ай бұрын
What age can a child make a huge choice?… but also if you don’t make this choice to go with Jedi TODAY, than you don’t have a choice in the ascension tonight.
@dygz
Ай бұрын
Sol got what he wanted but Anaseya was correct - his “noble intentions” did get his entire Jedi squad killed one day.
@Blanzalot
Ай бұрын
Padawan's are dangerous. They are man children w the training to use deadly force but not mature enough to understand the weight of the position.
@2uentin66
Ай бұрын
I wasn't a fan of the modern music cut in thrones or acolyte, despite enjoying most of the songs too😅 feels more like a cw show move (whatever that means lol)
@dygz
Ай бұрын
Light Side/Dark Side appears to be a Jedi biased concept. The Witches and Qimir would argue that harnessing anger, desire and fear to wield the Force is not inherently Evil. Similar to how Vodoun is not inherently Evil though Christian religions might disagree.
@cloverraven
Ай бұрын
The show is better to talk about than to watch. The bullet points and ideas mostly are good, the execution is just not.
@Elias_tomodachi
Ай бұрын
This episode was the turning point for me where I just had too much stress and frustration with the creative choices and it is my least favorite Star Wars of the modern era, which is disappointing because I really enjoyed some of the characters. I think the creators are trying to do too much and being a little too clever, the themes are getting muddled. I was curious to see how the show would explore the morality of the Jedi recruiting children, but instead of asking questions, the show is just confusing things. I think I feel like Joseph in that the story was making a point that Osha really wanted a different life, and I would view the portrait of her situation in this show the opposite of how Jennifer saw it - seems to me Osha was trapped in an unhealthy situation where she would never be allowed to live her true self. I thought Sol had sincere awareness of that and truly wanted to help rescue her. This episode seemed to try to want to make viewers question Sols motives, but to me, the intrigue fell flat and I was stressed by reliving my own childhood trauma for what Osha was going through. And why oh why are Jedi searching for Force coins on this planet with metal detectors, come on.
@SaviorCross
Ай бұрын
Tbis episode was a big let down.
@gustavoolivieri6568
Ай бұрын
This series lost me on episode 4. This one was so weird, noone was making any sense. But I'm curious about how you will turn it positive. (I'm writing this just after I heard you guys talk about first impressions.)
@bn16fan
Ай бұрын
Couldn’t disagree with y’all more! *Mugatu voice* “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!”
@highexecutor
Ай бұрын
I don’t share your thoughts about the show, but I like that you guys are enjoying it, I wish that could be me, but for me this is one of the worst shows, and not because of anything canon related but for the lousy script.
@martinjrgensen8234
Ай бұрын
The show feels incredibly contrived. It didn’t sell me on the need for all this drama, secrecy and need for cover ups. And while it is modern to “muddle the waters” when it comes to good and evil, it just feels incredible rushed in this show. I can see what they are going for, it is just really badly executed. And where is all the money going? No way they really spent 180 mill on this…
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