This man is way too balanced and has way too much common sense to be a theologian…may God raise up a thousand (pun intended) more men like him in our generation!
@nancywenger2025
Жыл бұрын
Maybe 10, 000 men
@mamamia5130
Жыл бұрын
Maybe 144,000? 😂😂😂
@JesusProtects
10 ай бұрын
I don't know, I'm not sure how helpful it is to be meek with everybody. Don't you think that sometimes pastors should put Galatians 1:8-9 into practice? I'll copy the verses here for everyone's convenience. Galatians 1:8-9 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" Note that it's repeated twice. When the Lord inspires the writer to write something more than once it's always very important. I wonder if Gavin have done this at some point of his ministry. I have heard him saying "catholics are part of the body of Christ". That's a huge thing to say knowing they consider Mary co redemptor and even higher than Jesus, just to name the most heretical of their teachings concerning the gospel. Let alone every other secondary doctrine. Is this ok? Is this what a pastor should do? I see 99% of people here praising Gavin everytime he tries to build bridges with those that believe a false gospel and I feel so conflicted, because I love Gavin and most of what he says, but when he refuses to stay firm against heresies I feel like I want to cry, because I know it can open the gates of ecumenical thinking, and knowing how much influence he has on his viewers who respect him and trust him so much it could lead to many people to a false gospel. All I can do is pray that no one listening to him end up taking that path that leads to destruction.
@The_table_242
5 ай бұрын
In my experience of watching many theologians from many streams, this is actually the norm. Most people who have incredibly dogmatic views are local pastors, who have not wrestled through the deep material
@bible1st
5 ай бұрын
I would argue that that is exactly why he is a theologian.
@thereforebeloved
Жыл бұрын
I've been blessed to have discovered your ministry and have listened to a lot of your content on Protestant and Catholic issues. And now I am excited to learn that you are a partial preterist! Having grown up in an environment of dispensationalism that took things too far, in my opinion, partial preterism has been a breath of fresh air in my eschatology.
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
Glad to be connected, and always glad to meet another partial-preterist!
@anthonywhitney634
2 жыл бұрын
To add some perspective to this discussion - here in Australia, after 35+ yrs of church attendance I don't remember a single sermon on eschatology.
@ProfYaffle
2 жыл бұрын
I heard one in UK, but in a church I was visiting. The preacher took us tentatively (not arrogantly) down the prederist route and I thought there was something in it, but it didn't fully work! 🤔 *preterist...I've only ever heard Americans say it!
@fed99harmony
2 жыл бұрын
They fear that subject
@MontoyaBrandy
Жыл бұрын
I don’t get dispensationalism. It doesn’t even make any sense!! “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” Luke 17:20 KJV The dispensationalists are trying to build the kingdom in this earth. That’s not biblical.
@dennischanay7781
Жыл бұрын
Roman catholic here binge listening to my favorite Bible teacher :) another amazing video from Dr. Ortlund. The way I feel about end times things is that I always remember how the most theologically educated of Jesus day, those who had studied the old testament prophecies for their lives, still somehow failed to recognize the fulfillment in Christ because it happenes totally different than they had imagined. That's why Dr Ortlunds cautious but we'll thought out teaching on end times is much appreciated!! Moving on to more Gavin videos now lol. Thank you Dr Ortlund for your great teaching! It's HAS to be hard to find time with family, church, and writing books to give us these great videos!!
@HillbillyBlack
10 ай бұрын
@robertstephenson6806when the man comes around. Revelation commentary. Check that out.
@iQuiiKKz
2 жыл бұрын
Gavin! I would LOVE for you to cover annihilationism!
@FHmetalguitarist
2 жыл бұрын
Yes!
@TheScotro
5 ай бұрын
+1 to this.. I’ve been working through this issue and I’m not sure what to believe.
@ProfYaffle
2 жыл бұрын
Mike Winger did a really good talk on this too. Where he also presented different options with strengths and weaknesses of each. He also stated where he stands at the moment and why, but recognised he might change his mind. I find the open honest approach from both of you so helpful. Mike also said that it shouldn't be divisive but concluded that whichever is correct we have to follow Jesus, preach the Gospel, and work to build the body of Christ. (Or something like that). Thanks
@williamnathanael412
2 жыл бұрын
Incidentally Mike was one of the people who brought me into Partial Preterism.
@ProfYaffle
2 жыл бұрын
@@williamnathanael412 I need to that talk again, then listen to Gavin. Would be cool if they did a livestream together
@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533
2 жыл бұрын
That’s the next video I have saved to watch later 😀
@CasshernSinz1613
Жыл бұрын
I love those videos. Very long but probably the most honest coverage of all those views. I also appreciate that given the evidence Mike is still Premillenial (which I am also) even though I lean heavily to being Postmillenial based on other scripture. Amillenialism bothers me quite a lot because I find it basically to be the Preterist view but softened to adjust for the times. I sadly think the Church lost its boldness and refuses to talk about Jesus returning because they think it somehow discredits the gospel.
@johannmeiring4208
Жыл бұрын
O'l Miky is also a devouted Calvinist. To be avoided at all times
@rooderoo12
6 ай бұрын
As a Christian (Dutch) Reformed Christian, these are also my views on this subject. Thanks for trying to articulate it.
@Particularly_John_Gill
2 жыл бұрын
Enjoyed the video Dr. Ortlund. I’m always thankful for the nuances you bring to these topics and the thorough treatment you give them. I’m still not settled on an eschatological position, though I would currently categorize myself as post-millennial. I think I’m drawn to it mostly because I like the idea of the Great Commission being successful in a sense, where through the Holy Spirit the Gospel is brought to the nations gradually winning them to Christ before he returns. More so than because of good arguments for the position. I remember reading somewhere that R.C. Sproul was never truly settled on a position, but said something to the effect of “all I know is it’s not the dispensational premillennial view” in typical R.C.-like comedy. I’ve found that funny seeing as how greatly that viewpoint has influenced American Christianity today. Definitely hoping RC was right. 😂
@Particularly_John_Gill
2 жыл бұрын
@@Reformation1580 I know. I’m pretty sure he’s wavered on his position at times and never held it with strong conviction.
@jrhemmerich
2 жыл бұрын
@@Particularly_John_Gill Just curious, why do you say that he never held it with strong conviction? Sure, he was humble and said he still had passages which he had not settled on, but why is that a lack of conviction? I'd be more inclined to say that he was convinced (he did write a book after all) but reserved the right to change his mind.
@MathewDRhys
Жыл бұрын
A few years ago I can't believe that the Book of Revelation explains its interpretive rule within the book itself. "What was and what is and what is to come."
@hazmat5118
11 ай бұрын
Thanks Gavin. I'm quite partial to partial preterism 😂 I understand some versions of dispensationalism say another temple will be built, which means the Olivet discourse refers to a future temple and not the one right in front of their eyes. For a literalist hermeneutic it's not particularly literal.
@PresbyterianPaladin
2 жыл бұрын
Another partial preterist here, and I became one through R.C. Sproul's lecture series on "The End Times according to Jesus" and he did call himself a partial preterist in that lecture series. 😁
@TruthUnites
2 жыл бұрын
thanks for sharing that! I was wondering if he did.
@Real_LiamOBryan
2 жыл бұрын
Watching that was what made me start thinking partial-preterism is true. Even though I've never believed Calvinism is true, I still really liked his content and found a few, good nuggets of truth and wisdom.
@PresbyterianPaladin
2 жыл бұрын
@@Real_LiamOBryan While I am a Calvinist I can understand your sentiment here. Soteriologically speaking I do affirm Calvinism but I also utilize Molinism as a model of God's omniscience and feel it provides the best means to square many of the statements in the Westminster confession and cathechisms. So I would label myself a middle knowledge affirming Calvinist.
@Real_LiamOBryan
2 жыл бұрын
@@PresbyterianPaladin I, too, am a Molinist, my brother. I agree with you, namely, it seems to be the best model we have for understanding God's omniscience, sovereignty, and the relation thereof.
@Ali_2401
Жыл бұрын
My church offered a Sunday school class using that video series. The majority of the class leaned futurist-dispensational, but every lesson I found myself drawn closer to a partial preterist view. I learned about it in a New Testament class back in Bible college, but Sproul made it make so much sense.
@craigbennett8053
2 жыл бұрын
Can someone be both a partial preterist and pre trib? By that I mean that a typical pre trib view but with partial prophetic fulfillment? It seams that may of the OT prophecies had a partial fulfillment and then a full fulfillment later on.
@madrick2831
10 ай бұрын
🙌🏽Postmill
@bountyhunter404
3 ай бұрын
I've been listening to you for about a month and I've watched your debate with Trent. I must say we agree with everything that I've listened to and I'm not sure if that is a good thing for me and my beliefs or a bad thing for you and yours. My God continue to use you now and in the future. Take care and God bless you and your ministry.
@ClauGutierrezY
2 жыл бұрын
I spent my full life being a full futurist but I started openning my mind to partial preterism some years ago. Still cannot make sense of everything (probably never will) but if feel like comparatively speaking makes way more sense.
@Real_LiamOBryan
2 жыл бұрын
What can't you make sense of yet, if I may ask?
@heathers4961
2 жыл бұрын
Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth. Not men.
@Real_LiamOBryan
2 жыл бұрын
@@heathers4961 The thing I've never understood about this kind of saying is, doesn't the Holy Spirit use men to achieve His ends?
@heathers4961
2 жыл бұрын
@@Real_LiamOBryan Hi, yes he does. But scripture doesn't support this idea of shelving or ranking God's word into a hierarchy based on what we think. When Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness he told Satan: Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. In 2 Timothy All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. Jesus warned us 3 times to let no man deceive us by any means, and that people will have itching ears heaping up for themselves teachers and will wander from the truth. People will be giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. Revelation is the only book with a blessing attached for anyone who would read and keep its words. There is a stern warning at the end about those who would add or take away from the words in it. Truth doesn't unite; it divides. Jesus told us that. However, right now Satan is working hard to unite the world. Unity in itself is not righteous. People can be united for very wrong reasons. Test ALL things and do not believe every spirit.
@Real_LiamOBryan
2 жыл бұрын
@@heathers4961 I don't quite get what you mean when you say, *"But scripture doesn't support this idea of shelving or ranking God's word into a hierarchy based on what we think."* Who is doing that, and how does that apply to the Futurism/Partial-Preterism discussion? I'm sorry. I'm trying, but I'm just not tracking, sister. *"Revelation is the only book with a blessing attached for anyone who would read and keep its words."* Yes, but it also said that the people alive at the time it was written, its original and primary audience, would understand things like the number of the beast if they had wisdom, but that would be impossible on a purely Futurist view. *"Truth doesn't unite; it divides. Jesus told us that."* Yet we are told in scripture to be united and of one mind, as well as to not even argue if it breaks the peace. *"People can be united for very wrong reasons."* Very true! *"Test ALL things and do not believe every spirit."* How do you test them?
@spiff829
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for these thoughtful videos! I just finished your book, it was insightful (the historical perspective you bring is so helpful) and heartbreaking at times. I was interested to see you didn’t examine the doctrine of hell, which in my experience has been very divisive among evangelicals these days. Any plans to address in a video?
@TruthUnites
2 жыл бұрын
thanks Greg, will try to do that sometime. I need to study annihilationism more first.
@spiff829
2 жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnites right on. I’ve learned a tremendous amount from Chris Date, YT channel Rethinking Hell, on the topic of Conditional Immortality (superset of the concept of annihilationism). Including some research into historical perspectives on the doctrine, which I think you’d appreciate. Thanks for the response!
@HillbillyBlack
11 ай бұрын
i don't feel this is unclear in an unanswerable sense. Revelation is a book of Code by an exiled John who's writings and letters were being watched and censored. Taken under that lens, it can be read contextually if you drop preconceived traditions. For instance Chapter 1-4 is the ascension of Christ into heaven after leaving the apostles, the introduction and chastisement of the 7 churches, and the symbolism of the believers in Christ as elders. 12 from the torah age and 12 from the church age. 24 elders and the 7 seals. its a coded book leading up to the coming Nero persecutions which would last 42 months. This is not a book of prophesy yet to happen but rather a book of what's near and coming after its written point and a warning to those churches of coming problems from Rome. The same problems Christ speaks of in Mathew 24 with the judgment of Israel for killing Christ and the destruction of the Jerusalem. I think this is a point to divide on because it becomes 2 different Christ's weather you hold to pre or post. One reads scripture as if scripture is talking to us and the other reads scripture exegetically within context. Post reads contextually and shows a church age in full swing with a massive positive unifying outcome before Christ return. The globe will be converted to Christ in a majority before his return. not a minority. Its a Wheat Field not a tare field.
@beaulin5628
Жыл бұрын
That Christ will reign on earth on David's throne from Jerusalem for "one thousand years" is mentioned six times in Rev.20:2-7. There is nothing in the Bible repeated so specifically so many times consecutively that I know of. Even the doctrine of salvation by faith is not repeated specifically so many times in one chapter. This has to literally mean what it says. Anyone who thinks Satan is now "bound", and not "deceiving the nations" right now during the Church Age is denying reality.
@joshuamitchell5481
2 ай бұрын
Splitting the church over these issues is sad. We need to be about the Father's business. None of us have this all figured out. There is only one bride.
@Christian-ut2sp
2 жыл бұрын
As a partial preterist myself I approve this video lol
@pixieburton3131
2 жыл бұрын
As true believing Christians 1 Thessalonians tells us: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - KJV And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - KJV In Revelation Jesus writes to seven churches. The local churches that Jesus wrote to were along the area’s postal route. These churches represent four different aspects within these churches and all churches throughout history. Aspect 1 - Ecclesiastical, the church’s hierarchy. Aspect 2 - The current issues within the local church. Aspect 3 - A personal, individual application, places in our hearts and lives that may need reflection and repentance. Aspect 4 - Lastly, a prophetic application. These letters actually cover all the churches in the history of the Church Age, from the first to the last. Historically and prophetically the first three churches mentioned are gone but the last four are still here today. You will notice Jesus telling the last four churches that they will be here for the End Times. Please see Revelation 2:22 (Thyatira), 3:3 (Sardis), 3:10 (Philadelphia), and 3:16 (Laodicea). The church in Philadelphia, the sixth church letter, prophetically represents the missionary churches starting in the late 1600’s and exploding with William Carey’s “Inquiry into the Obligations of Christians to Evangelize to the Heathen”. There are many missionary churches today and there are some that are not. Jesus Christ is not speaking to a denomination but to all those with a missionary spirit. My church is a missionary church. Please, are you in a missionary church? Do you evangelize? Revelation 3:10 says to the church of Philadelphia (missionary church): Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:10 - KJV This is the only church with the promise of escaping the Tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 18 tells us: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - KJV This was written by Paul to the Thessalonians who fully understood the Rapture and who were looking and waiting for the Rapture. Many of them were worried that their loved ones, who had died, missed the Rapture and Paul was reassuring them that the dead would be caught up first and then those who are alive will follow. The Pre-tribulation Rapture is to be a source of comfort for those hearing these words, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a promise for believers. As we read in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9, as believers, we are not destined to wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross taking on Himself the wrath we were due without His Willing Sacrifice. Instead of wrath we are now blessed with Salvation and eternal life with Him. There is no more wrath, no more condemnation, our punishment was paid-in-full by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:50 - 54 says: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 - KJV I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 show there will be a rapture. A catching away, an instant change from our corruptible bodies to our glorified bodies. I believe 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10 tell us as true believers we will not see God’s wrath. We will not be here when God pours out His wrath on an unbelieving, Christ rejecting world. Those left to go through the tribulation, this is their last opportunity to believe, repent and accept Jesus Christ as the true Messiah, Our Lord and Savior. The Tribulation is known as the Time of Jacob’s Trouble as found in Jeremiah 30:7. Father God is turning His full attention back to the Jewish people and nation in order to bring them to the realization that Jesus Christ is the True Messiah, the King they have been waiting for. Unbelievers will not be raptured and will experience the Tribulation but they can still be saved. The Church Age is finished, there’s no more need for the Church. The Two Witnesses, the 144,000, and the angels will now spread the Gospel. The True Church is gone. Also, another reason that the Rapture is Pre-tribulation is we are to be watching and waiting for the Lord Jesus. The Tribulation is the ONLY End Times prophecy without a timeline for us. The 10 virgins / wedding parable speaks directly to this. Please see Matthew 25:1-13. Throughout the Old Testament, Father God gave Israel everything they needed in order to recognize the Messiah. They didn’t pay attention and they missed their Day of Visitation. In exactly the same way the Church has been given everything we need to know about the End Times except the Rapture timeline. We too must pay attention so we are not caught unaware. For those not raptured, as soon as the peace treaty is signed you will know the Tribulation is starting. 7 years later, exactly, Jesus will come in His Second Coming. This part of the timeline is given. We know midway through the Tribulation, the Abomination of Desolation will occur, the Two Witnesses will be killed and the Great Tribulation will begin. What we don’t know and why we must stay alert and watch is because we don’t know the hour of the Rapture. Everything else in the timeline is given. This is a comfort to those waiting and watching AND listening for the sound of the Trump and the voice of the Archangel. We will not experience the Wrath of God. Another promise is that Jesus went home to prepare a place for us. His Father will send Him for us as His Bride before the Tribulation and we will spend the seven years of the Tribulation with our Husband, in seclusion, exactly as in the seven day Jewish Marriage Feast. Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them. Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Isaiah 26:16-27:1 - KJV Also; Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3 - KJV I definitely believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. For those who believe the Pre Tribulation Rapture is an invention of Darby, please see: truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/
@OvercomingtheTribulation
2 жыл бұрын
I don’t believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. I used to, but searching the Scripture, I found contradictions to it and left it behind. I’m not a partial preterist, Amillennialist, Postmillennialist or Historicist either. I believe our catching up is at His coming, after the entire Tribulation, including God’s wrath on the wicked. I explain some reasons I think this way from various passages on my channel and on my website by the same name. I invite you to check it out if you are willing to hear-especially the Answers section on my website, because I answer most of the Pre-Trib arguments you make there. God bless.
@evantheorthodox740
2 жыл бұрын
The "antichrist" is nowhere to be found in the book of Revelation, nor in the book of Thessalonians, but was forced in there to fit their script of preconceived pre-millenial, pre-tribulational dispensationalism, a damning heresy. 1 and 2nd John says that antichrist is already in the world, when John wrote his letter, and he isn't so much speaking of the gnostic Cerinthus, , although John despised him, but of the heresy of the gnostics who deny that Jesus came in the flesh. John knew who they were and so did his first readers. Stay away from dispensationalism.
@bazzy8376
2 жыл бұрын
It teaches the exact opposite of "take up your cross and follow me."
@godisreality7014
2 жыл бұрын
You are right. However, Rev does mention the beast, the false prophet and the whore and the woman riding the beast.
@andrewwoods456
2 жыл бұрын
Many thanks Gavin. On his channel Bruce Gore has a very good playlist, Apocalypse in Space and Time covering Revelation from a preterist perspective. Most interestingly the first 9 videos are a historical overview of the apocalypse through church history. The remaining 51(!) videos are a study of Revelation He also has a very good playlist on church history.
@MrSeedi76
Жыл бұрын
In Jewish thought, the day of the lord is always near. There is this idea that if Israel will perfectly keep the commandments for just one day, the end will come.
@pdrsan993
2 жыл бұрын
This is awesome I thought Matthew 16:28 and 24:34 showed that Jesus was a failed apocalyptic preacher but now I see them in a different light
@bazzy8376
2 жыл бұрын
Isn't that crazy? A whole religious industry was born on calling Jesus mistaken.
@robertfrank6058
Ай бұрын
Sam Shamoun has videos on these.
@TravisD.Barrett
Жыл бұрын
41:58 I’m sure you said “more complicated, knotty thing” but I heard it as “more complicated, naughty thing” And did a double take 😂😂
@williamstrathman7117
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr. Ortlund. Would you consider a review of John 2:12 -- After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days. (ESV) -- in light of RCC perpetual virginity claims of Mary. Also Matt 1:25, and Matt 2:13-14, 20-21, where one wonders why Joseph was not ordered to take his other children with him, if he actually had other children from a previous marriage. Thanks for your work.
@DouglasBeaumont
2 жыл бұрын
The prophecies surrounding Jesus' first coming are often "dual" prophecies, so why not those of His second coming eh? #PreterFuturism :)
@benandstefflauchlan3946
Жыл бұрын
Derek Prince appealed to this when he said the prophecies of the first coming of Jesus pointed to Egypt, Bethlehem and Nazareth …. Each was right but people could be divided on them if they made them hardline views
@stevenkibb7119
2 жыл бұрын
Could u do a video about the differences in church polity and the arguments for each view, also great video
@randatatang9222
Жыл бұрын
Thank you pastor. I have come to believe this for nearly two years now after developing a more common sense interpretation of the bible. When you ask yourself how the immediate audience (or the writer's intended audience) would have understood that text plainly, it becomes clear that this was about 70 AD. I'm glad RC Sproul believed this as well.
@cassidyanderson3722
2 жыл бұрын
From an Orthodox perspective, theological triage is a confounding proposition. Have you had an opportunity to dialogue with any Orthodox Christians about it? I’d be interested in hearing how it went. Within Orthodoxy, I’ve never heard of eschatology being a a cause for division. I imagine most EO are amillennialist, but I’m sure there are those among us who ascribe to other theories. Protestants would probably be surprised at how little attention we pay to eschatology at all. Thanks for the summation of the varied theories - I’d never really considered most of them.
@nickhanley5407
2 жыл бұрын
You might be surprised to find out the same variety of views on the millennium (pre/post/amillenial) exist in orthodoxy as well. It’s not as though orthodox Christians are quite as theologically United as it is often made out to be.
@cassidyanderson3722
2 жыл бұрын
@@nickhanley5407 it wouldn’t surprise me at all. If it isn’t clearly expressed by Holy Tradition (Scripture, Creeds, Councils, consensus of the Fathers), we don’t dogmatize it.
@joefrescoln
2 жыл бұрын
Anecdotal, but most of the E.O folks Ive run across have been historic premil.
@cassidyanderson3722
2 жыл бұрын
@@joefrescoln that’s interesting. I’ve never personally met any EO that were anything other than amillennial, albeit my experience is limited.
@joefrescoln
2 жыл бұрын
@@cassidyanderson3722 My limited experience has been with ROCOR. I wonder if different sees lean a certain way or other.
@heathers4961
2 жыл бұрын
The last book of the bible is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It isn't called the hidden mysteries of Jesus Christ. Let's start with the truth: God loves us and wants us to know the truth. He gives us prophecies because He loves us and wants us prepared for the last days. When I hear the same comments parroted such as: "Leave it to the experts" "Even the greatest teachers were confused about eschatology" "People have been arguing eschatology since the early church" Etc. I look to God's word and am told: There is simplicity in Christ. God is not the author of confusion. When the Holy Spirit comes HE will guide you into all truth. You have no need for anyone to teach you. Man will not live by bread alone but by every word of God. Blessed is he who reads and keeps the words of this book.
@godisreality7014
2 жыл бұрын
As the whole of earth´s population will follow after the beast (Rev 13), those of the damned will marvel at those who are elect, chosen and believe on the true Messiah. These will be the despised outcasts, widows and lame, whom God has sustained until the end. The foolish confound the wise, not vice versa.
@heathers4961
2 жыл бұрын
@@godisreality7014 Yes, this is a truth that I believe people want to avoid and it leads to all manner of false eschatology. The saints will be given into the beast's hand for 3.5 years and the beast will overcome them. Obviously God means in the physical sense, not the spiritual but this is a difficult truth to face. Brother will betray brother. I believe this is meant literal and spiritual brethren here.
@godisreality7014
Жыл бұрын
@@heathers4961 satanic minions are waiting his manifestation in the flesh in 2025. Counterfeit "Israel" was "founded" on the blood of the children of Jacob-Israel (WWI and WWII) in 1948. Babylon was to fall after the fulfillment of 70 years. Mystery Babylon, Counterfeit "Israel" is 74 years strong this year. From Psalm 90.10 we realize that the years "of a man" are 80. All this means that Counterfeit Israel, whom nobody - except me and many just a handful of others ever talks about - that Mystery Babylon will fall within the next 4 years. Some of the remnant will live. How do I know? There will be at least two witnesses of Messiah, coming in the clouds, who can understand what is happening.
@jesusandliberty
8 ай бұрын
You only covered 1 viewpoint and barely mentioned the other stuff?
@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533
2 жыл бұрын
I grew up in the preTrib rapture church but never believed. Looking at their timelines, they had two second comings- preTeib and post Trib. I, too, am a partial preterist. I believe in only one second coming, not a third coming. I did not divide over it. Yes, RC Sroull was a partial preterist.
@stephenbailey9969
Жыл бұрын
Amillennial writers are very good at thematic analyses, dissecting the differences between this age and the age to come. Premillennial writers are good at laying out the chronology found in the Olivet discourse and the Revelation to John. For myself, I found that historic premillennialism coincided with my own reading of scripture and the apostolic fathers. But it is the Lord who knows the first things and the last things, so I'll leave it in his hands.
@robertdelisle7309
Жыл бұрын
Full Preterism is refuted with this verse: “They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee, “they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-11) The world has never seen Jesus descend from the sky to the earth therefore his second coming remains a future event.
@georgeplatt3347
Жыл бұрын
Very helpful video, thank you for it. I’d like to hear you do one on young earth creationism, old earth creationism and theistic evolution.
@unit2394
11 ай бұрын
I am amillennial and a partial preterist. It’s not an easy view to hold in the American South.
@christalone71
9 ай бұрын
Try being a postmillennial partial preterist in the deep South. They think you arw nuts, lol
@heather602
9 ай бұрын
Its not an easy view to hold biblically either.
@steph9195
2 жыл бұрын
Great video, Dr. Ortlund. Thank you for always making an effort to take a nuanced, honest approach to theological topics. I too am a partial-preterist, so I was glad to see your take on the matter. How would you personally respond to those who refer to 2 Peter 3:8 to support their idea that when Jesus’ return is described as imminent in the Bible, it doesn’t necessarily mean what we think of as soon but can mean a longer period of time (because one day can be like a thousand years for God)? I don’t find this to be a compelling argument, but I was wondering how you’d articulate your rebuttal.
@bananaegger
Жыл бұрын
he was an antichrist but not the ultimate antichrist because Satan is already on work.
@bible1st
5 ай бұрын
Hey truth, great videos I can see God has given you wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Also I appreciate a person who understands that God created his brain and then pushes that to the limit. Regarding the antichrist, I have seen some amazing comnections in prophecy and some of it is regarding islam, which as you know is a massive religion and growing influence in the world. I have a playlist on my channel called cross vs crescent eschetology but also I wanted to point you to a video here on youtube that may further your understanding even more. It's actually a man named Walid Shoebat he has a video on here, called Walid Shoebat prophecy conference 2008. I think there is something to what he is saying and I think it is providing some answers that have not been answered since the beginning of everything. Good day sir.
@jameswoodard4304
Жыл бұрын
1) What is the difference between Partial Preterism and Historicism if both are claiming that certain events describe what already happened, but that the Second Coming, Resurrection, Final Judgement, etc. are still future. I'm not being critical. I'm just not well-studied on the Historicist position and would like some clarification for my own understanding. 2) Your position seems to both rely on partial fulfillment and/or typology and yet fail to take it into account. As a Futurist, I don't feel like the fact that Jesus's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse closely parallel the Seige of Jerusalem says anything about whether or not there is still a final and more full fulfillment yet to come. For example, take the "virgin shall conceive..." prophecy in Isaiah. Let's say hypothetically that we were reading Isaiah some time in the centuries between that prophet's life and the Advent. We could look back at the time just after the prophecy and recognize clear concurrence between the prophecy and the birth of Isaiah's son by one who was a maiden virgin at the time the prophecy was made. The child was used as a prophetic sign at the time. Someone could surely argue that the seemingly exalted nature of the prophesied birth didn't fit with the historical event, but it could be claimed that it was mere apocalyptic expressiveness and hyperbole. Yet, the careful and considerate student would both admit the temporally-near application to an historical event, *and yet* maintain the expectation that the *full* expression was yet to come. Most Futurists I have heard leave plenty of room for multiple fulfillment and typology. I have no problem saying that the Siege of Jerusalem was *a* referent for Jesus's prophecies. In fact, I think it's downright obvious, especially in light on the Woe Jesus pronounced over the city. But I don't see how that excludes the primary and full expression being still yet to come. This also allows a possible response to the "this generation" passages while maintaining that the prophecies *also* describe something we have ahead of us. The "this generation passages" besides the Seige of Jerusalem, can also be understood in the fact that Jesus appeared in glory twice within that time. The Transfiguration and the Resurrection/Assention. Taken together, these three events don't leave as much power for the "this generation" passages in support of a non-futurist view. Yes, the casting down of the temple, *a* great tribulation, Christ coming gloriously in His kingdom *did* occur during the generation which heard His words. But that doesn't imply that there is no final future fulfillment as well. Look at the way that Cyrus the Great and other leaders fulfilled messianic prophecies. Some prophecies clearly related directly to Cyrus and called him the messiah. So they can't have anything to say about the One who came later? All of Scripture taken as a whole points to a time of destruction, judgment, and the Rule of God at the end of history. I think any reading of Christ's eschatology, at leaves open as highly plausible, that the specific events in question are part of that future complex of events, *even* if they also refer to the events surrounding 70AD. Further, the events in question are covered in Revelation in a way that I would argue is primarily concerned with future events. DISCLAIMER: I agree these are not division issues! Everyone, please take these points as brotherly discussion and an attempt at learning and growth via discussion.
@coreymccain
Жыл бұрын
Hello James, I will answer your first question by explaining to you the principles of historicism as this is the camp I belong to. 1. Daniel 2 establishes the foundation that these prophecies cover history from Babylon to the end of the world. 2. A day is a year rule of interpretation. All the prophetic time lines before the second coming are to be understood as years, not days. 1260 years, 1290 years, 1335 years, 2300 years, 490 years (70 weeks Daniel 9, this is the only one evangelicals use the day is a year rule, where historicism always uses the rule). There are a few passages in scripture that show the day for a year principle. 3. Thus the prophecies are covering large spans of time, examples 2300 is 457BC to 1844AD, the 1260 is 538AD to 1798AD. While preterism and futurism both see Antiochus epiphanies IV as the central point in Daniel 8 and 11, historicism believes Rome in all of its phases throughout history is the central figure. Historicism keeps the pattern of Daniel 2 and 7 while preterism and futurism cease using the pattern in Daniel 8 and 11. 4. Within history there is the principle of historical repeat, thus you have types and antitypes, so Matthew 24 has application to 70 AD which is a type of both the dark ages between 538-1798 and the final events at end of the world. 5. The Pope (papacy) is the antichrist, little horn of Daniel 7, beast Rev 13, man of sin 2 thess. 6. Seventh Day Adventist Church is the culmination of the reformation in the events of 1844 (end of 2300), God's church restored, although I believe it has since gone into apostasy in modern times just as Israel always does. Preterism and futurism were designed by two Jesuits as part of the counter reformation so protestants would cease to claim the Pope is antichrist. 7. Because historicism climaxed in 1844 in the raising up of Seventh Day Adventism (not officially called SDA until 1863, at that time (1844) they were called millerites and were protestants of many different denominations), protestants who rejected the messages related to the prophecies had to move away from historicism typically into futurism and preterism. The rejection of the message was justified because the Millerites predicted the second coming in 1844. When that failed the baby was thrown out with the bath water. The Millerites had the event of the 2300 wrong, but afterwards some found the mistake and saw the event referred to Christ's ministry in the heavenly Temple and the judgment. 8. Protestant churches become the "false prophet" of Revelation (also the second beast in Rev 13 as it will eventually unite with the USA government) keeping people from seeing the Pope as antichrist. 9. The end of the world will climax with protestants and catholics getting power over the USA and European governments to enforce the mark of the beast, Sunday sacredness, in replacement of the Sabbath. This will eventually be forced onto the entire world. 10. Probation will close on the world, the plagues will be poured out, Jesus will come, the dead will be resurrected and the living saints will be transformed into glorified bodies, caught up in the air and all go to heaven for a literal 1000 years to go over the judgment books. The entire world that followed the antichrist and false prophet are destroyed at second coming, Satan is bound on earth for the 1000 years. After the 1000 years the saints return to earth the unsaved dead are resurrected, they think they can over take the new Jerusalem but are judged and destroyed, they cease to exist. This is the event called hell. The earth is made new and the saints live on earth with Christ for eternity. That is the basic outline of historicism. Obviously it is offensive to catholics and protestants but everyone has to learn for themselves. Many will talk about historicism and various differences within it previous to 1844, but those differences existed because it was still developing. Once it reached the pinnacle in 1844 it became solidly understood in great detail. It became obvious that to continue in historicism would require one to become SDA, thus historicism is largely rejected today. Because Adventism has gone into apostasy over various changes many of us have been disfellowshipped or have left the conference church but we still teach the messages that were held by the church in the 1800's. We still consider ourselves SDA though we don't attend or believe people should attend the conference churches in most cases. Obviously most SDA today do not believe the church is going astray. This doesn't mean all Catholics or protestants are lost, as God says "come out of her my people" in Revelation 18, showing that God has people in these systems of worship. It also doesn't mean that all SDA are Holy, in fact most SDA are in as bad a condition as ancient Israel and are lost. This includes people that are SDA outside of the conference system. Its not a religion that is supposed to be claiming we are holier than everyone else, we just believe the prophecies point to us as the people of the book with the end time message for the world. I don't intend for this to be condemning but the the doctrine itself obviously is condemning towards those that are in these systems. There should be a difference between a person who condemns and a ideology that condemns. I love watching Gavin, Trent Horn, Mike Winger and others, and they may likely be among God's people so i have nothing bad to say about these men though i greatly differ with their Christian world view. I think I've said enough, sorry for the length. Blessings Corey McCain
@stephenbeauregard1101
2 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate the open minded, irenic approach that you take to divisive issues Gavin. We need more like you. God bless.
@ZachMetzger1377
2 жыл бұрын
Hey Gavin, I was curious which book of Ken Gentry’s you were referring to when you mentioned in the video that he took Josephus line by line and compared it with the middle chapters of Revelation and shows the similarities. I would love to pick up that resource and check it out.
@sniderfam5
2 жыл бұрын
In a similar way concerning the partial preterist view, the threat of exile in the OT came to the larger groups of people (Israel and Judah). Yet, there had been several judgments on smaller groups and individuals. I’ve held this view without knowing it. Thank you for doing these.
@edwardlargent4144
2 жыл бұрын
Gavin, how about a video on the various views of hell? Or on old earth versus new earth? Thanks again for the well-made and helpful videos!
@jonathanvickers3881
Жыл бұрын
I second this hell idea!
@laylascott6096
Жыл бұрын
@@jonathanvickers3881 hell is the grave
@pastorernestalbuquerque4770
8 ай бұрын
Thanks so much Gavin for that video. Respect your views. I'm a pre tribulation dispensationalist.
@lt7378
Жыл бұрын
So glad I found this channel from Becket Cook channel! Subscribed, of course. Now I have so much good content to listen to. May God bless this channel to His glory.
@TruthUnites
Жыл бұрын
Hope you enjoy!
@fivesolae5379
2 жыл бұрын
I am personally a historic premillennialist as the Early Church was highly oriented towards that view, with the exception of Origen, Augustine and Cyprian
@tonyb408
2 жыл бұрын
Hippolytus and Irenaeus both speak of a rapture as does Ephraim.
@fivesolae5379
2 жыл бұрын
@@tonyb408 not as pretribulation
@tonyb408
2 жыл бұрын
@@fivesolae5379 yes, as pretrib. Ephraim sometimes speaks of a 3.5 year tribulation but his rapture is still before that.
@cassidyanderson3722
2 жыл бұрын
@@tonyb408 Will you please provide your sources for claiming that Hippolytus, Irenaeus and Ephraim (or any other early Christian theologian) ascribed to the concept of a rapture as we understand it today?
@tonyb408
2 жыл бұрын
@@cassidyanderson3722 Ireneaus-Against heresies 5.29.1, Hippolytus read the Christ & Antichrist and understand his chronology (64), see the pre-trib conf presentation from 2021 by Lee Brainerd with 10 additional statements by Ephrem beyond the pseudo document. The first two can be read in the standard volumes of the church fathers.
@Psychoveliatonet
2 жыл бұрын
This was a very helpful video. Thank you for spelling this out! 😀
@HumbleWarrior7
Жыл бұрын
I was always taught preterism was heresy. But I see how partial preterism can have some valid points. I think dual fulfillment comes most to my mind on this topic. I can see how a lot of what was foretold was fulfilled, but a few key things have not yet. Therefore Nero could have been “an antichrist” without being THE ultimate one. The desolation of Jerusalem also being one of the judgements, perhaps foreshadowing an even worse time coming in the future. I see this very similar to passages in Daniel. The wars of the Diadochi line up extremely well with one of his visions, as does the man of lawlessness with the person Antiochus Epimanes. But some verses still really can’t find complete fulfillment in those events but seem to line up more with the actual “end.” Again this could be a foreshadow or taste of what is to come. So in that sense I’d somehow see myself as both a partial preterist and a premillennial. 🤔
@robertbrangan9617
Жыл бұрын
Love your channel, brother! One thing I keep thinking about is the often dual fulfilment of biblical prophecy, one near term and another that's far off into the future. We see it clearly woven throughout scriptures regarding His first coming so if you apply the same hermeneutic we should expect to see it with His return. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is prophecy fulfilled but I also believe we have yet to see it's greater fulfillment in the tribulation to come. Israel returning as a nation in the last century has profound eschatological significance. The fig tree has put forth it's leaves and Summer is near. The events of Zechariah 12 is the harvest of that fruit. I find myself learning a lot from the way you approach these topics with grace and humility
@michaelseay9783
4 ай бұрын
Seems like you really don’t understand the fig tree parable.
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
2 жыл бұрын
Pan-mil. Yeah. I’ll grab that. Thanks again Gavin
@OvercomingtheTribulation
2 жыл бұрын
Why do you think the foolish virgins don’t bring enough oil to last all night?
@ri3m4nn
2 жыл бұрын
It's definitely Rome, which clearly still exists today.
@BillionFires
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Gavin, thank you for this. I find that I think very similarly to you on a lot of topics. Of course, this makes me more and more convinced of your absolute brilliance 😉
@TruthUnites
2 жыл бұрын
haha isn't it amazing how the smart always are those we tend to agree with? :)
@BornAgainRN
2 жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnites 28:20. I believe Jeff Durbin (pastor with Dr James White) is also a partial preterist. He made a video awhile ago on Daniel and the Olivet Discourse. He thinks the 3 1/2 years (“times, time, and half a time”) in Daniel 9 is discussing the point when Jesus was crucified, which ended sacrifice. Personally, I am a pretrib premill, but his video is interesting, and I consider him and Dr White to be brothers-in-Christ despite differences in our eschatology.
@jrhemmerich
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Gavin! I think this is really helpful for people. For me it was helpful to learn that it really isn't a question of literal versus non-literal, because most of us agree there is symbolism. I actually find that there is sometimes more agreement between premil futurists and amil partial-preterists than some idealists amil futurists. The main reason is because, the question of whether the symbols are supposed to refer to specific historical events is actually what most people mean when they say they take things "literally." And premills and partial-preterists agree about this in principle, but the premill is usually just saying they don't see it in history. But often it's because they don't know what's there. . The thing about taking passages "literally" is that we are forced to decide, are we going to take references to Jesus' "coming," especially his "cloud coming" as his physical decent (literally) or are we going to take "in this generation" and "soon" in their normal sense (literally). What was convincing to me, is that we see the bible being able to distinguish near and far (not that every context is clear). But in Daniel, it says, "seal it up" for these things are "far off," but Jesus says, "this generation" and "soon" and "don't seal it up." Whereas, when we look at “comings” in the OT, there is a rich understanding of Yahweh's judgment "comings" and "presence" (Psalm 18, Isa. 19:1 the Babylonian attack on Egypt) which do not require that God be made visible at all. When Jesus uses such language, he is actually appropriating divine action to himself. The high Priest recognized this when Jesus claimed, at his trial, that he was going to come on the clouds. This was Yahweh "action" and considered blasphemy. The fact that there is this depth to the OT view of coming is obscured to us because we tend to see "coming" in light of the incarnation rather than the unseen creator being made present through fulfilled prophetic events. And certainly, the incarnation is essential, but we don't want to forget that there is a depth to "coming" and "presence" which is not dispensed with simply because Jesus has come and will descend again (Acts 1, 1 Thess 4:13, I Cor 15:50-55). It's also helpful to see that in Matthew 24:30, Jesus speaks of seeing the "sign of the son of man in heaven." The likely sign being the astronomical events. Another interesting thought, that goes along with this, is that one does not always have to choose between symbolic and literal. For example, the sun turning dark and the mood to blood. These could be symbolic for stable things like one's nation ceasing to exist. But it could also be the natural effect of the burning of a city. Such an event does result in the sun being darkened and the moon seeming to turn to blood.
@savortheflavour
3 ай бұрын
I appreciate a perspective that Mike Winger shared about progressive dispensationalism. This view emphasizes the "already, not yet" aspect of biblical prophecy, making it almost a blending of partial preterism and premillennialism in some ways. It's an intriguing position that I'm loosely holding to for now. More than anything, I'm a pan-millennialist--whatever pans out is fine with me! God knows best.
@jaydogg2003
2 жыл бұрын
Always a pleasure to listen to a more eloquent and educated kindred spirit. Our theological perspectives are very similar and I appreciate your ability to express your personal convictions in a way that encourages unity above being right. Looking forward to the next one!
@beowulf.reborn
Жыл бұрын
Premillennialism can be just as optimistic as Postmillennialism, the only difference need be, that Satan, seeing his time is short, launches the tribulation as one last ditch effort against the Church. For a short period of time, the tides seem to be turning, and the Christ returns to thwart the serpent's efforts, and usher in the fullness of His Kingdom.
@FullLifeFrank
2 жыл бұрын
Can you do one on paedobaptism vs. credobaptism?
@TJMcCarty
Жыл бұрын
Could you make another video explaining in detail your end times views? Like how do you deal with Jesus saying in Matthew "immediately" after the tribulation of that time, you will see Jesus coming in the clouds and sending out His angels to gather His elect? If the great tribulation happened in 70 A.D., why didn't Jesus return? I'm honestly wondering. It does seem like the clearest interpretation of the generation would be the one alive at the time of Christ. But Jesus hasn't physically returned yet, so I don't know how that couldn't mean that Jesus was talking about the generation that would be here at the end of the age.
@reepicheepsfriend
2 жыл бұрын
I do find it interesting that Christians in the 20th century would shift to the more “pessimistic” view regarding the direction of history. Perhaps that’s not so surprising given the world events they were experiencing. My general view of eschatology is “if I remain faithful to the Lord and familiar with the scriptures, I’ll know it when I see it.”
@ThePlagueGameing
Жыл бұрын
Great teaching!. Complicated subject no doubt but how much of this teaching has a bearing on ones salvation?. Thanks for your research.😎
@albertito77
Ай бұрын
I am an amillenialist (with hopeful post millennial leanings--lets rebuild Christendom folks!!!!). But is not the amillenialist view a more vindicating view of scripture as the earthly author of Revelation could never have known or guessed that the age of the Church would take thousands of years!
@derrick7442
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video. It was incredibly helpful.
@TruthUnites
2 жыл бұрын
so glad to hear that!
@albertito77
Ай бұрын
I guess I'm a partial preterite too. I follow NT Wright and remember how Jesus tells Caiaphas that _from now on_ you will see the son of man coming on the clouds. At least some of the apocalypic events described seem to be about the destruction of Jerusalem and attendant vindication of Jesus's claims. Also note that the run for the hills comment was used by the Jerusalem church and fled when Titus besieged it _and they survived because they heeded Jesus's words_
@Alx1744
8 ай бұрын
It's actually pretty simple: CHRISTIANS are not under GOD'S WRATH, and so pre-trib ARPAZÅ/rapture is the only way THE HOLY SCRIPTURE makes sense. The only people who claim anything else are those that do not take GOD for HIS WORD.
@joshuamitchell5481
2 ай бұрын
What did people call themselves before Calvin and Luther were born??? Are you well versed in Paleo Hebrew and Greek?
@alfonso_barajas
5 ай бұрын
Gavin Ortland for the win. What an excellent video full of charity and truth. Thank you, sir.
@robertcain3426
6 ай бұрын
The antichrist, the small horn which grows up from aming the other ten horns, is not a man. It is a kingdom. It is an eighth king/horn, a kingdom, which signifies that it is a resurrected kingdom - eight being the number for resurrection. It was an eleventh horn which displaced three others - signifying its great power because the number three represents thrength and stability - and thereby becoming an eighth ir resurrected kingdom; 11 - 3 = 8 It is a resurrected kingdom because, 'It once was, now is not (at John's time of writing, but will come again' Rev 17. It was a kingdom which was 'wounded by the sword (the Word of God) but lived again - was resurrected. The 'wound' which this kingdom, Babel/Bavel/Babylon, recieved was confusion of mankind's language and dispersion over the face of the earth. Mankind has been 'healed' of his dispersion and is once again 'unified as one, where nothing will be impossible for them' Gen 11. This is the rebellion (apostacia) of mankind, to unite as one in opposition to God and his Christ, to, instead, be his own lord and master of his own destiny, just as he attempted the first time at Babel.
@goatsandroses4258
7 ай бұрын
Eastern Orthodox sidestep this issue because of their belief about Original Sin (they don't call it that.) They believe that we inherit Adam's propensity or weakness to sin (I hope I am verbalizing that correctly) but NOT Adam's guilt. Following this, Mary could be born without the taint of original guilt (which is the need for the Immaculate Conception), although she could sin in some way or another. I think sources about this differ from whether she only committed involuntary sins OR whether she actually committed voluntary sin. Anyway, this just shows how a foundational doctrine (Original Sin & Original Guilt) leads to other doctrines.
@joshuamitchell5481
2 ай бұрын
Look up Chuck Missler"s teachings. The American church is so lost. You make good points without malice
@mattyoder9441
6 ай бұрын
In my opinion, if preterism was correct, it would have been referenced by the early church apologists all the time as a proof of Scripture. But you don't find that. Clement of Alexandria did interpret the Olivet Discourse as referring to Nero, but most early church commentators talked about the Antichrist and abomination of desolation as a future event, sometimes suggesting it was near by relating it to approaching events (much like people do today). I don't see preterism in Victorinus's commentary. It appears to be futurist, but amillenial - a slightly unusual combination today. He speaks of the Antichrist as future and believes the book was written under Domitian. He thinks one thing in chapter 17 references Nero, but not that the Antichrist is Nero. They would also not have dated John's writings, including Revelation, later in the first century as does pretty much everyone outside of preterists. (by "early church " I mean "ante-Nicene" - Augustine was not that early, except in relation to us. He was farther from the apostles than we are from the American founding).
@loleki737
10 ай бұрын
Fulfilled eschatology (Preterism) is the one that explains history and glorifies God and Christ. Thank you!
@soteriology400
9 ай бұрын
Amen to that. Also does not make God look like a false prophet.
@RonT101
6 ай бұрын
That the thousand-years is mentioned 6 times in Rev. 20 favors a literal interpretation. The future earthly kingdom is very prominent throughout the OT, particularly in the prophets. So Revelation is simply adding the time duration, which was not mentioned in the OT, to the teaching of the future earthly kingdom.
@damiandziedzic23
2 жыл бұрын
Partial preterism
@ianbell2931
2 жыл бұрын
Dr Gavin, thank you for a balanced handling! Btw, have you been introduced to the work of Dr Philip Kayser? He builds on the work of Gentry and others to make the most hermeneutically sound preterist schema yet, while avoiding many of the common problems found in popular partial and full preterist teaching. I highly recommend his Revelation Project sermon series, available on podcast.
@TruthUnites
2 жыл бұрын
cool, thanks for the tip!
@cleob9956
2 жыл бұрын
@@TruthUnites Hi Gavin! I left you a comment over on your practicing gratitude video. Would you mind checking it out? I’ve been wrestling about the Enneagram and was wondering if you might dive into it more for us. Thanks for considering.
@TheAtarango
4 ай бұрын
So the title I saw for this video was "Was Nero the anti-Christ?" So I watched it and got no answer. I appreciate your work, but seems like a lot of words to end without any real decisive points. Maybe you can do a video on why or why not Nero was the anti-Christ and then make decision on it that people can take or leave. I think looking at this might answer some other questions in eschatology that could help people understand how viable Preterism really is.
@mercy1962
6 ай бұрын
Progressive dispensationalist is the closest to my beliefs, the already but not yet seems the most logical. That yes these things in 70 AD was a partial fulfillment but the complete fulfillment is future. All eschatological positions have problems and I 100% agree it is a 3rd rank issue.
@rickwhyte7716
4 ай бұрын
pleased to find out that I'm not the only one who thought just maybe Jesus' teaching Matt24 might already have been fulfilled.
@bairfreedom
7 ай бұрын
I used to take a default view (pre trib rapture etc) . Then I came to Christ in a authentic personal way when I was 23 and started digging into the Bible really hard. It was interesting to see the complete absence of a pre trib escape etc. that I was taught my whole childhood. So I stepped back from it in belief for a while then ended up landing on a theory called "Pre wrath" . It makes the most sense to me and is more logical. It follows the premise that the seals are not the wrath of God, in fact you can see this by seal 5 when the Martyrs cry out and ask God when he WILl pour out his wrath. Then we see something like a rapture take place when after that a multitude just appear in the throne room of God. Jesus appears and the world freaks out, THEN the trumpets of wrath start to blow. I find it all interesting and am looking forward to it all when it happens, but I'm not going to condemn or seperate from brothers over such a trivial matter. Me and by closer brother vary on views and like to have friendly debates. It is fun! Lol These types of matters should not be split over at all.
@beaulin5628
Жыл бұрын
Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The destruction of Jerusalm in 70 AD was not the worst tribulation that has ever come upon the world. The flood of Noah's day affected the whole world and was worse. WWII was worse for the whole world. Isaiah predicts a time when the entire world will be shaken on its axis which has not happened yet. It corresponds to what Jesus says in Matthew 24:21 Isaiah 24:19 "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly." Isaiah 24:20 "The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again." Isaiah 24:21 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth." (Who are "the high ones on high"? The are spiritual "principalities and powers and rulers of the darkness of this world" who have not been punished yet. Ephes. 6:12 ) Peter says this present earth will be destroyed by fire and there will be a new heavens and a new earth. This has not happened yet: 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." .
@jameswoodard4304
Жыл бұрын
"Are we going to say that Augustine...are hermeneutically suspicious?" On this particular point, yes. Why not. The leading lights of Gospel truth of any given time are liable to be wrong about some particular area or other. That includes today, which is why we should continue to be careful. This sounds like it's moving toward an "everyone's doing it," argument. Also, your historical examples of who was post-mil and a-mil in the past actually argue for the practical importance of the doctrine in the life of the Church. For example, "The Puritans were Post-mil..." Yes, and their hermeneutic was greatly tainted by Christian Utopianism in which their expectation was that they were building the worldly millennial kingdom on earth by their own personal piety and political/legalistic efforts in the world. This had very real repercussions on the lives of believers and lead to serious error and trouble. The Utopianism and their Post-mil doctrine are not merely coincidental. The travesty of British Israelism and the extravagancies of many cults come from thinkers identifying their efforts or group with "Establishing the Kingdom on Earth." Also, that the main confessions of history have generally been a-mil has allowed them to lessen their apocalyptic expectation over time which the Gospel expects us to maintain. That God is going to once again, when we least expect it, plunge dramatically into the course of human history, has a serious impact on one's stance toward the world and history. Yes, a-mils believe in the Second Coming and Judgement, but that is a closing of the book of history rather than the final glorious chapter. The lack of (Biblical) pessimism concerning the world-system specifically allows more conciliation with the world among a-mils, while pre and post are expectant of a necessary and dramatic distinction (though post-mils see this distinction being eventually overcome). I believe a Pre-mil stance is the most consistent with (note I didn't say "necessary for") the proper positioning of the believer in the world and human history. We are aliens in a foriegn land. We work for the good of people and the world, but we don't expect the world to stop being the world because of it and become disheartened. We aren't going to "save the world" through our Spirit-led efforts. It will still be the messed up world when Christ comes, and *He alone* will overcome the nations, right all wrongs, and establish His throne. An expectation of the eschaton, gracious seperation from the world while laboring in it, and humility regarding our role and that of Christ, placing our hope on Christ alone during the time of our laboring rather than on our labors themselves in Christ, and others are effects which Pre-mil tends to nurture. I will not ignore the abuses of the Pre-mil position either. Some have tended to become fully world-denying or world-hating apocalypticists or at least turn from their responsibilities as "salt" and "light." There are often cults that have apocalyptic stances which come from an idea of God coming any day to smite the nations and set up Utopia. Let's not forget the mass embarrassment and lingering doctrinal error stemming from Miller's Dispensational calculations in the Great Dissapointment of the Millerites. But my point was not necessarily that one position is better or worse relative to hermeneutics and practical theology and life so much as simply to remind us that these issues *do* in fact have such an impact. I am also not arguing that these should be categorized as Second Tier, much less First Tier, doctrines. They *should not* , in themselves, be matters of division. I merely wish to point out that we can also go too far in the opposite direction if we deny the reality of their practical effects.
@alexc4159
Жыл бұрын
The first covenant ended with the coming of the second covenant. Now I've seen full preterists go so far as to claim the second coming came and the Christians living and dead were taken up in 70AD Ie Christianity was specifically for the first century Christians. My question to that is where and what is this 3rd Covenant? Surly if the Covenant of Christ ended in 70AD it would have culminated in us being in a 3rd covenant which would have been spelled out to us. I totally agree that full preterists are in danger of heresy and partial preterism is the way.
@CryoftheProphet
4 ай бұрын
Amos cant possibly have been fulfilled yet. Amo 9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel; they will rebuild the cities lying in rubble and settle down. They will plant vineyards and drink the wine they produce; they will grow orchards and eat the fruit they produce. Amo 9:15 I will plant them on their land and they will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the LORD your God.
@wordisbond007
5 ай бұрын
Christ is talking about a future generation who sees all these celestial signs and experiences the worst persecution that any of Gods people ever faced…. That the ones who see these signs will be blessed with physically seeing the Second Coming, the generation who sees all these signs will not die, they will rewarded. Also some here will not taste death until….. John saw the Second Coming before dying and recorded it in Revelation.
@kimadams2995
9 ай бұрын
What a wonderfully well-needed thing. In crazy times, it's wonderful to see the Lord raise up balanced voices. I truly appreciate yours, even when I don't see eye to eye with you on every detail. Keep it up, please, brother!
@LuxnoireCollection
3 ай бұрын
Gavin, do you hold an early dating of Revelation? Before 70AD?
@josegeda7807
Жыл бұрын
Good summary. I have been a post-millenialist for the longest time tending toward and a partial preterist
@jussman8861
6 ай бұрын
Does anyone know the reference made at 34:33 about Ken Gentry’s writing on this? I see he has a few books about Revelation but I would be interested to know which of his writings has the comparison referenced.
@shanecoris6109
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr. Ortlund, Thank you for this video! Since you mentioned that the final separation of believers and nonbelievers is something that Christians should affirm, do you think it would be right to divide over Christian universalism? It seems to me like this view would not meet the criteria. Thanks!
@solavirtus1880
4 ай бұрын
Excellent video, thank you so much for pointing out the inconsistencies of FP.
@beaulin5628
Жыл бұрын
The Apostle John wrote in (1John) that there were many antichrists at work during his time, and the "spirit of antichrist" was already at work in the world (1John 4:3). This in no way precludes that a final antichrist will not one day rise to world power.
@marriage4life893
Жыл бұрын
Just read Deuteronomy 28, and look at what happened to the Jews after the fall of Jerusalem. They were literally shipped to Egypt, among other things.
@williambrewer
9 ай бұрын
Why not just leave 1,000 as 1,000? That would be the common sense interpretation. Then we have a millennium from 70-1070. This also helps us explain the difficult times the church in the East faced during the 11th-16th centuries - and really, the church everywhere was experiencing great threats, internal and external.
@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533
2 жыл бұрын
I have a book that is an excellent resource. It’s called Revelation: Four Views.
@doc2590
2 ай бұрын
Yeah, I'm thinking it's probably Elon Musk.
@CryoftheProphet
4 ай бұрын
They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison
@MeanBeanComedy
8 ай бұрын
I'm not convinced this is a tangential issue. These differences in eschatology have differences in applied outcomes. Sure, you _can_ have a premillennial eschatology and still be positive about the future, but does that happen often? How many times have you tried to talk about an important current issue in the world with an Evangelical and hear "None of that matters, it's the end times, earth is just our temporary home, the rapture will come soon and take us to Heaven?" Because that happens nearly every single time for me. It's not just irritating, it's defeatist, and it has negative outcomes for the world and the Church. I don't think it means they dont have Salvation, but dispensationalism has been a *huge* detriment to the Church, lilely causing much of the culture retreat we've seen in recent years.
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