The best videogame subgenre. It's hard to decide whether a game belongs, but imo any puzzle game that makes me go "Wait, I could've done that the ENTIRE TIME?" several times fits. I also think the existence of some puzzles should be hidden right under the player's nose. Here's a list of games I've played that did both: TUNIC Outer Wilds The Witness A Monster's Expedition Leap Year Can of Wormholes Linelith Elechead N Step Steve Parts 1 & 2 Toki Tori 2
@rakarauns6451
3 ай бұрын
Aliensrock the goat!!
@KylerGreer
2 ай бұрын
Aliensrock, the certified expert on the topic.
@foxer4217
2 ай бұрын
Can't forget Papa Louie 2
@adiveler
2 ай бұрын
Myhouse.wad Environmental Station Alpha
@oposdeo
2 ай бұрын
Here's a few more that fit in: La Mulana 1 + 2 Environmental Station Alpha Noita Stephen's Sausage Roll (I would say this, alongside Can of Wormholes and Monster's Expedition, are not "metroidbrainias" but rather "sausage-likes")
@CrispyGFX
2 ай бұрын
I just replayed Obra Dinn for the first time 4 years, and I can safely say that half a decade is about what you need to brain bleach enough of your memory to enjoy a knowledge-based game again. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Outer Wilds, as there has hardly been a day that has gone by where I haven't thought about the game, or listened to the music, or thought about a different game through the lens of Outer Wilds. Playing it for the first time was a truly remarkable experience. Impactful enough that I can safely say that it changed me as a person, or at least my perception and outlook on the world around me.
@thorakvideos2495
3 ай бұрын
Found you through the Lego Racers video & now I'm enjoying everything you have on offer ;)
@IfYouSeekCaveman
3 ай бұрын
There's a Lego Racers video?! Finally, a KZitem channel for me.
3 ай бұрын
same
@reverse7116
3 ай бұрын
Hoping he does more of this kind of gaming content!
@Kufunninapuh
3 ай бұрын
That's why this guy turned up in my feed again! I thought it was another lego racing game (that I can't remember the name of) and only watched a couple of minutes.
@duon44
3 ай бұрын
There's something so cool about having a notebook full of weird scribbles trying to figure out stuff in games like The Witness and FEZ
@Revenge-fm9tt
2 ай бұрын
"note taking-puzzle games" is a genre term I've been using for a while (whether the notes are kept in game, or have to be done by hand). If you like having a note book full of weird scribbles I'd recommend the Myst series if you haven't played it!
@CheesecakeMilitia
2 ай бұрын
The Witness really only has one puzzle that requires note taking (the colored lights puzzle in the Town). Everything else is pretty forgiving on your brain RAM, though ymmv of course.
@duon44
2 ай бұрын
@@CheesecakeMilitia what about all the notes in the briefcases
@cicadaenthusiast3954
9 күн бұрын
Yeah! I loved writing down the various flute songs on the walls in animal well so I could try em in different areas
@MartianBlobfish
3 ай бұрын
Another example of a, Mertoidbrainia I guess, that I will take any opportunity to bring up is 'Toki Tori 2+'. Is cool, play it. A more classic styled puzzle Metroidvania is 'Isles of Sea and Sky' which came out recently. I also agree with the sentiment towards puzzles outside of a game, it even opens up the possibility of a puzzle being impossible to solve the intended way like say a website goes down that has an important key to solve it. I think I managed to 'solve' the word block puzzle. I say 'solve' because well I'd figured that I had to line them up to make a word and somehow managed to luck into finding the right one. So, take that as you will. Great video btw.
@W4l0p
3 ай бұрын
Not strictly this genre, but Baba is you (made by one of the creators of Noita) blew my mind how many times it can recontextualize itself and give you the there is no spoon -moment. It may look like sokoban, but the solutions rely mostly on understanding and not much on long, tedious sequences, so you probably solve many levels while not actually playing the game, but just thinking about it while doing something else.
@Neoxwill
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for explaining so well my gripes with a game requiring community work. I've said this several times, I fell for the Animal Well hype and regretted paying the release price for it as it seems to be based on getting to enjoy the full game from level 1 puzzles to the level 4 ones, which realistically very few people will, in one hand because as you said it's unreasonable to expect a community that has already collectively solved a puzzle to do it again, and in the other hand because most people are not that hardcore and will just get to the credits and at most will explore a bit of the level 2 puzzles before getting bored or distracted by the next new shiny thing or, like in my case, deciding it's too much work and too much repetition of subpar movement mechanics. I had this experience with Animal Well shortly after having played Tunic for the first time, and it felt like a bit of a deja vu. I had to retread a lot of Tunic because of the game giving so little guidance, but at least Tunic had the option to turn on infinite health and stamina, so I just went and 100% it in a quasi-comfortable way. Then with Animal Well when I saw how much of the game I'd have to retread, plus having to do deathless runs and speedrunning challenges and no way of making it all more comfortable, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, despite being so much of a completionist. Maybe in the future I'll go back to it, but right now I'm a bit annoyed at the game for expecting so much of the player and not giving any warning about having such high expectations. In fact, I believe these kind of games, what we can call metroidbrainias, should be more open and transparent about what kind of challenge they impose. While it's true, as you said, that metroidbrainias are best enjoyed going in blind, some can benefit a lot from at least letting you know if the tools required to solve the puzzle are contained within the game or require external tools, because I'm an adult and I don't have time to waste searching for clues that later I'll find out in an online guide that weren't there in the first place. I prefer games respect my immersion and don't break it by requiring me to use an unprovided barcode reader or to check the source code of a website or to make a spectrogram of an audio file, but if they really want to do that, at least be upfront about it and let me take that information into consideration before I decide to pay for a game. Hopefully more people will voice concerns and demands like mine and the industry will react appropriately. All in all, great video.
@dwilliams21
2 ай бұрын
Thisx1000. I loved the early-to-middle bits of TUNIC and ANIMAL WELL and INSCRYPTION--thrilling moments of discovery! seeing old places/decorations in new ways!--but was really disappointed to see how much investment and/or outside knowledge/ARG was needed to "complete" the games. Left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Deathless runs are not my idea of fun, ANIMAL WELL. And I shouldn't have to know the author's entire back catalog (INSCRYPTION...!), to find extra story or secrets; that's unfair. And TUNIC, that rotating puzzle in the water room?? It's annoying i know HOW to solve it, but executing it is eye-rollingly difficult, so I'm out. Anyway, I enjoyed playing all 3 of the abovementioned games, they left me feeling :\ about them. For me, TOKI TORI 2+ was best--you could do everything without leaving the game. I wish there was more TOKI TORI2+
@karlhendrikse
2 ай бұрын
@@dwilliams21in tunic you know about the hourglass right
@dwilliams21
2 ай бұрын
@@karlhendrikse yup!
@JeynickRuns
3 ай бұрын
Loved the video! Outer Wilds is my favourite game of all time.. (and I'm normally not one for picking favourites) Obra Dinn was my biggest surprise regarding a game I played last year. Keep it up Tin Sensei! 🎉
@meposz
2 ай бұрын
I played and loved both Fez and Tunic. I'm waiting for my Switch copy of Outer Wilds to arrive in late August and just wishlisted Animal Well. Thank you, I really liked this video.
@CRAZYJO24
2 ай бұрын
Most underrated KZitemr I have seen in recent times. Loving the video essays, keep it up my guy!
@oposdeo
2 ай бұрын
This is indeed my favorite genre, nice to have a name for it. You make a good point, I enjoyed solving all the secrets in Animal Well on my own, but was frustrated by the puzzle that required I tip toe around spoilers to find those pieces so I could put them together. The "final" puzzle of the game I think is more understandable in terms of collaboration, not in that it needs it, but because the pieces of the puzzle are not designed to be found, but rather, to be uncovered over a large amount of time by a large amount of people. It's one in which the difficulty is so high that you ought to collaborate, not one which mandates it in the design.
@losi47
2 ай бұрын
very well done, completely agree about the part with puzzles that require community effort I love animal well but the bunny mural felt very weird, I thought everything in the game would be solo solvable, as something along the lines of 'the game requires no internet connection and you can keep revisting it for years finding new secrets' was written on the promotion material, the mural just felt out of place
@losi47
2 ай бұрын
solving tunic's secret language solo also felt like the perfect amount of difficulty, because it took me several days to get but at no point have I felt that maybe it's not doable solo or that I dont have enough hints from the game to get it done
@triplebog
3 ай бұрын
Outer wilds legitimately changed the whole way I view video games. Truly incredible experience. Noita is another game that has half a foot in this genre. It's less a true metroidbrania and more roguelikebrania.
@domlauri722
2 ай бұрын
Great video! Love this genre and will definitely be checking out these games. Grew up playing Chip’s Challenge on the family PC, so was hooked when I saw that right out of the gate
@herpderpitypurple73
2 ай бұрын
I've seen some people describe this genre/mechanic as a "meta-puzzle"/"meta-puzzlers", or a puzzle you progress through by solving other puzzles and getting other pieces of information. I've always really loved games that take that approach, and a lot of them end up being underappreciated as a result. I really recommend La-Mulana and Baroque, which both went a bit under the radar. The Fool's Errand, Riven, and Deadline are really interesting as well if you're up for some older/jankier stuff. Overall it's just kind of sick how many adventure games apply "metroidbrainia" or meta-puzzle logic to counteract frustration and give you a bit more freedom.
@captnduck
2 ай бұрын
Saw this title and was like, oh like La Mulana 1&2. But then no mention of La Mulana at all wow. I guess you havent played em. Well go do that, they are amazing and you really need your brain to finish em without a walkthrough. Also on the Collaborative parts at the end, you gotta check out Environmental Station Alpha and Noita. ESA has some weird endgame content that basicly was an ARG to solve. Might be doable on your own but gonna be nuts. Noita is filled with insane secrets, thats more ARG style. Finding some of these on your own is probably impossible. Also it still has some unsolved mysteries to this day (the eyes code+cauldron)
@buckysrevenge
3 ай бұрын
Another puzzle heavy metroidbrainia type is Toki Tori 2+. You find out eventually that you have all the skills/abilities you need from the beginning, but you still need to do a lot of exploring and environmental puzzle solving to win and/or collect everything. Well worth getting, it's on Switch and Steam for sure
@ieatatsonic
3 ай бұрын
Ok, I like the video overall but I do have some disagreements. I don't really think animal well is a metroidbrania in the way Tunic is, or especially something like Toki Tori 2 or Full Boar. Animal Well's list of knowledge gates are pretty small, and mostly require mid to lategame items. Also a small thing but most of the jumping puzzles you showed can be beaten with one bubble. Small bit. The bit about community collaboration though... Idunno. I think it's fine that not everyone sees everything in the game. I think it is valid to have puzzles that require coordination and community efforts. Signposting it can be helpful, yes. If you go by endings, the actual "true" ending of animal well is the one you get from all the eggs. You don't need to solve the mural to get that. Sure there are things in the game that it unlocks, but it's not an ending. There's no credits roll iirc. For Fez it's also pretty vague what the word block or monolith puzzle really give you and whether it's an ending, or how good an ending it is. I think Tunic did a great job because there are two very obvious goals with endings attached (that feed into each other). The secret community stuff is all after those. It's not really shown to be "you need help to do this!" but moreso a set of optional puzzles that are pretty blatantly difficult. The puzzles are really just there to do, there's no unlockable item or secret weapon or anything. They're just there if you like the puzzles. I think the main 3 games in this video are all great, and part of that is because they have a solid game attached that you can play through completely before getting to the really crunchy cryptic puzzles. You can play Tunic like a zelda game, or Fez like a collectathon. Animal Well you can get very far without needing note paper, to the point that I'd argue you can get both main endings without codes or collaboration. Though for what it's worth, there are rooms and items and routes locked behind completing the bad ending in that game too. Idk. I know this sounds really critical but I overall like the video. I just have very strong opinions on these sorts of big puzzle hunt-style parts in games.
@jaytheret
2 ай бұрын
Another quality vid wow so happy I stumbled upon your channel
@louis559
2 ай бұрын
Oh wow, chips challenge. Now that's a memory unlocked
@coffeedude
3 ай бұрын
Can't believe Void Stranger wan't mentioned in this video
@sgtpepper9001
3 ай бұрын
Ive always had trouble categorizing the myst series of games, cause they didnt rly match the traditional point and click, especially riven. This new genre might better fit the myst games, cause they are point and click puzzles, but without an inventory, the puzzles focused more on exploration and learning the mechanics of the world.
@MrLanarana
18 күн бұрын
Tunic has a name it's a soul like, end of the story
@Croadly
Ай бұрын
I can't believe you just made me fall for a decade old april fools joke
@thegreenrobby7402
2 ай бұрын
I spend a lot of time in this "genre". TUNIC, The Witness, and ANIMAL WELL are probably all in my top 10 favorite games of all time. The amount of time I've spent in each of these titles is extensive, especially once you've factored in the randomizers for each of them (with ANIMAL WELL being one I'm actually a developer for). Anyways, I think you mentioned something that I think speaks to the truth here: it's not TRULY a genre, but rather a modifier added to games that already exist in another genre. It's a term that says little about the nature of the gameplay, and much more about how you experience it and the types of feelings you have when solving its challenges. For this reason, I HATE the term "Metroidbrainia". I think it leads to a lot of misplaced conceptions. It implies that it's a genre (when it's not) and that the core features are something present in either Metroid or Castlevania (which they're not). I've come to like "Epiphany-driven" as a descriptor for this type of game. The term is pulled from the Steam store page of Lingo, which is an indie game that's very true to the roots of these types of games. It's what Jon Blow would have made instead of The Witness if he was a single developer without access to a multi million dollar art budget, and had a pension for English word puzzles and noneucludian geometry instead of maze puzzles and religious philosophy. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece of the genre, as it definitely has its flaws, but I think it captures the spirit very well, and "Epiphany-driven" is how it describes itself. It captures the core essence of what makes these types of games distinct from any other. The games are built to make you have epiphanies. At the end of the day, linguistically, I like what it does, too. It's now a modifier for another genre. ANIMAL WELL is an epiphany-driven Metroidvania. TUNIC is an epiphany-driven soulslike (with Zelda mechanics). The Witness is an epiphany-driven maze puzzle game. It rolls off the tongue well.
@dwilliams21
2 ай бұрын
I like your descriptor, "epiphany-driven". Those "WHOAAAA!" moments were my favorite parts of TUNIC especially. (But I didn't like how TUNIC's puzzles went by the very endgame and abandoned it).
@levi22es
2 ай бұрын
Tunic was an incredible game
@thecactusdio839
2 ай бұрын
What a great video, hope your channel grows way more
@wydx120
2 ай бұрын
I think the real reason why this genre has "no" name is because it's actually not a genre, and it's best exemplified by the screen in 10:32, by the fact that you need to highlight it as an "undercurrent" to other genres. It is a category of games, yes; a design philosophy, if you will. But it's no actual genre: the games that belong to this category aren't tied by gameplay mechanics. Knowledge isn't gameplay. You could have knowledge gates in a VN if you wanted; and I will have a hard time taking seriously anyone who tries to argue a VN being a metroidvania derivative. Don't take me wrong, I love this category of games, and I think it's the best thing that has happened to game design in recent years.
@randompandemonium4823
Ай бұрын
metroid-brainia hurts my soul multiple people have talked about it using Knowledge-based progression
@chaoslord8918
2 ай бұрын
"I've been playing through Animal Well..." Me who hasn't played it yet: 👉😑👈 "La la la la, I can't hear you!"
@leafstormblaze9449
3 ай бұрын
It does have a name its called either a puzzle game or a puzzle action and adventur3 game
@LutraLovegood
3 ай бұрын
Puzzle game? You mean a Tetrislike?
@BGID7
2 ай бұрын
Wait, this channel only has 11k subs?
@FelicityUwU
2 ай бұрын
As someone who doesn't have a pc or console, I was very happy to learn The Witness was available on Android. ...Just to find out the Android version is broken :/
@justlea6179
3 ай бұрын
Search Action still works.
@povtrips
2 ай бұрын
here's a sub, now go make your dream come true!
@SuperFlashDriver
3 ай бұрын
"There are 10 hidden jokes you must collect in this video to get the true ending." Hmmmmmm.....I'll try to see if I can find some in this video, but it'll take me multiple watches to see it. In terms of metroidvania, or the genre that has no name...I would definitely call it a "2D Action Platformer"...It's a title I would say that combines attacking enemies, collecting items, with the idea of going through the map in a 2D space and also going through level after level and go from there. Although the term has been diluted considering 3D ones have been around as well, it just gets to the point where it becomes a hybrid video game genre system of "Dream Experiences" or "Another World" type of genre, albeit it up for debate.
@Alianger
2 ай бұрын
I don't see why you have to tie it into metroid-like/metroidvania at all to be honest. Just puzzle game with knowledge gating/knowledge-gate progression is fine, or you can apply the latter to action adventure, action rpg or whatever.
@ProtozoanKid
2 ай бұрын
I really want videos that talk about these games to just list the games they are going to talk about up front so I can go play them and not have to play timestamp tag to find the name of the game without spoiling anything.
@dimitribarronmore
3 ай бұрын
Pretty sure I'd just call these "open-world puzzle games"
@TheSty2000
2 ай бұрын
what i'm seeing is mostly platformers which is infact the name of a game genre
@triplebog
3 ай бұрын
Outer wilds legitimately changed the whole way I view video games. Truly incredible experience
@nanto6865
3 ай бұрын
It truly changed the way I look at game dev
@r6scrubs126
2 ай бұрын
I wish I could experience this but every time I try play it I get bored within an hour or so and give up
@nanto6865
2 ай бұрын
@@r6scrubs126 that’s such a shame… this game is a truly beautiful experience but it doesn’t have a very wide target audience: those that like lore and dialogue (the type of person that reads tutorials with a fiery passion, aka me) Do you like dialogue in general? Do you also like solving enigmas? I think these are sort of the "requirements" for liking this game. It really surprises me that you get bored because when playing the game I usually felt very overwhelmed with different branching paths to explore, and every one of them I explored opened up new possibilities again (through mere knowledge) Of course I did at some point I did feel like I was lost and everything was explored although I wasn’t finished but that was very rare - the fix to this might just be searching it up online or, if you’re really into puzzles and mind stuff, continue rewinding your memories (literally IRL not in-game lol) to see if you might have missed something
@gabiruman
2 ай бұрын
@@r6scrubs126 I understand Outer Wilds might not be a game for everyone, but are you not at least a bit intrigued to find out what happened in that universe? How far have you gotten? Have you figured out the purpose of the game, or at least what you think the purpose is? If not then I encourage you to at least try to reach that far, if you're still not interested at that point it's fair to say it's not for you.
@gabiruman
2 ай бұрын
I know this sounds cheesy AF, but it actually changed the way I view life in general, obviously gaming as well, but it spoke to me on a level no other game has before.
@Mark73
3 ай бұрын
Knowledge-based progression
@KillahMate
3 ай бұрын
'Research Action'
@josh440
3 ай бұрын
@@KillahMate wow that's a fantastic name. I like your play on "Search Action" given that that is the alternate name for Metroidvanias
@jaredhaupt9438
2 ай бұрын
@@KillahMate Search Action HD (Hidden Depth) or RHAD for short
@Mooskym
2 ай бұрын
"Knowledge-based Progression" can be slimmed down to "Knowledge-Progression" or even "KnowProgress", and still convey the meaning well enough. Both this and "Research Action" are solid options to name this genre (while "MetroidBrainia" is so 'un-solid' we'd have to learn Quantum Physics to truly understand what state it's at).
@YusifAgayev-ck1br
2 ай бұрын
isn't 'knowledge-based unlock' the actual name? I hear industry people use that term all the time
@silasvidana124
3 ай бұрын
When I first discovered TUNIC, I didn't see many people talking about it, or at least not as many people as I think should've been talking about it. I think that, at first, most people will brush it off as just a cute, cozy zelda-like. I, too, brushed it off like this. But the game stuck with me, it gnawed at my mind, and eventually I caved and got it. To this day, nearly a year after I first beat it, it is my favorite game I've ever played. Every moment is shrouded in this immaculate air (air, heir) of mystery, and when you finally unlock that last bit of knowledge that unclouds the mystery, and it feels soooo.... intimate. I can't recommend TUNIC enough to anyone who hasn't played it. And if you do, please go in blind.
@Kontrazt1990
3 ай бұрын
was so hype for this game but it kicked my ass. maybe i should try it again
@FugaceFugite
3 ай бұрын
Agreed, the balance of the combat, adventure and puzzle aspects is just wonderful. I would also recommend Environmental Station Alpha in the same vein. It is a bit more demanding mechanically but I've found a very similar feeling as I progressed and eventually completed it.
@Tryforce8000
3 ай бұрын
Tunic has become my favorite game of all time recently. I first played it a couple of years ago, but I realized recently that I gushed about it continually. It's such a beautiful combination of Zelda, Dark Souls, Fez, and Outer Wilds.
@HappyWulf
3 ай бұрын
Do it. @@Kontrazt1990
@HappyWulf
3 ай бұрын
I teach the language. ;3
@panampace
3 ай бұрын
I love the spoiler free real life footage when talking about the witness, where people who KNOW are seeing it instantly and everyone else is just seeing random outdoor shots
@koenig-hiranojulien7357
3 ай бұрын
I was using my finger on the screen T_T
@Mikelaxo
3 ай бұрын
I really thought it was just randomly outdoor shots
@louis559
2 ай бұрын
This more than anything I've heard about it makes me want to play The Witness
@GibusWearingMann
2 ай бұрын
get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head
@RaptieFeathers
2 ай бұрын
@@louis559Do it and you will become one of us. :D The game was designed to make people learn a whole new mental language, experience the joys of epiphany, and _literally change how we view the world_ And it's so freaking silly, I love it
@antonklimov1310
3 ай бұрын
Outer Wilds soundrack made me cry instantly. Good job on not spoiling expirience of mentioned titles.
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
I cri everytim :(
@Sunderlol
2 ай бұрын
Same, I don't know why bu it gets me everytime. Maybe because it's the most memorable gaming experience I've ever had? I will never forget this game
@lucidjar
2 ай бұрын
@@Sunderlol A decent chunk of what makes Outerwilds so memorable is its music. How well it was written and arranged, how well it fit the current scene. Just so well done.
@Finstersang
3 ай бұрын
I sometimes refer to this type of games as "rabbit hole games", because they have these moments of sublime epiphany that recontextualizes everything, kind of like falling into a rabbit hole. Baba is You is a great example for that - the puzzles are fantastic on its own, but the moment you realize how to reach that damn island on the overworld screen you also realize that the whole game is even deeper and more complex than you ever imagined.
@kunai9809
Ай бұрын
It has some kind of meta-puzzle?!?
@ViHtor
3 ай бұрын
Still best game in this genre is Rain World. You have unlocked everything (except 1 thing) from the start. Can go anywhere. Only knowledge limits you.
@bwueberryyoghurt
3 ай бұрын
yes
@ThatDwag69
3 ай бұрын
I like hk more tho
@tin_sensei
3 ай бұрын
I was filtered hard by Rain World and stopped after a few hours. I've seen several people who have said that as well, only to have given it a second chance, then "got it" and loved it. I intend to go back to it some day when I can set aside some time.
@aatosohikaura1596
3 ай бұрын
Because Outer Wilds is a metroidbrania, then it has to be my favorite. Only the lack of knowledge is in your way. Rain World sounds fun I might try it
@flash93
3 ай бұрын
@@tin_sensei yeah, it was quite the same for me. hated it on my first few hours, friends convinced me to try it again, fell in love with 500 hours now. think the game is just too harsh to immediately understand.
@SobreDunas
3 ай бұрын
I will give it to the fez devs that it is extremely funny that they have been radio silent on the black monolith solution except for one instance like 7 years after the game released when they came out and said that the release date theory was wrong, the most popular and assumed by the fanbase to be the intended solution. Absolute legends lmao Although checking on old forums and seeing statements on people who claim to know the devs it seems pretty likely that the black monolith solution is actually hidden in the images of the soundtrack, as they said something along the lines of "you guys should wait until the soundtrack is out". Maybe the black monolith represents that black part in the spectrogram before they put an image? Who knows Also another thing of note is that in an interview with Phil 10 years after the game came out he said that bruteforcing the puzzle was a much cooler solution than the one he planned. So there's that. Maybe it has something to do with the heartbreak code, which was intended to be datamined, as some sort of symbolism with how game completionism culture and squeezing every drop of content out of games is killing them and the developers I'm so normal about this game trust me guys
@indigonao9864
3 ай бұрын
If I remember correctly, the solution as the community has discovered it was actually related to the release date of the game, as well as the poetry in the book. *SPOILER* The date of the release gave a code of numbers that one could reorder the pages of the book. Reading them in that order, then (I forget how) translating those letters to numbers, and from that to inputs is the solution as we understand it so far
@SobreDunas
3 ай бұрын
@@indigonao9864 no that's the theory that was proven to be wrong lmao. The devs already said that planning a game to be released on a specific day is something very hard to do and they just barely made it to the deadline with some insane crunch, so there's no way they made a whole puzzle about it
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
Dude, I waited until earlier this year, having had fez in my steam library since release, to finally play it and when I finally started looking some stuff up that part kind of pissed me off lol.
@thaneros
2 ай бұрын
Fez was made by one guy
@SobreDunas
2 ай бұрын
@@thaneros fez was made by 3 people: Phil Fish (the main guy in terms of puzzle design and graphics and the person who created the original idea), Renaud Bédard (who did the programming and created trixel engine, the engine the game uses), and Disasterpeace (who made the music and i'm pretty sure the sound effects too? don't quote me on that one)
@felixp535
3 ай бұрын
I've seen people calling those games "knowledge-based" games and I prefer that term. It's not a genre on its own, it has to be paired with other genres. Just like you would say "an action-adventure roguelike game", you could simply say "a knowledge-based 2D platformer". I would define Outer Wilds as a 3D exploration knowledge-based game for instance.
@CheesecakeMilitia
2 ай бұрын
I appreciate how that description is independent of IP, but "knowledge-based" or "knowledge-gated" as a genre label sounds erudite and pretentious, to my ears. It's a great mechanical descriptor, but it doesn't feel catchy enough as a name.
@noisecrime
2 ай бұрын
Yep 'knowledge-based' is far better than the 'MetroidBrainia' , though I prefer the term 'Curiosity driven' as you are 'driven' to play and explore due to the curiosity of discovery. That discovery can be of new knowledge, tools, abilities etc. So i feel its more encompassing of the wide range of gaming mechanics it can cover and puts emphasis on the point and experience of playing, that of 'curiosity'. MetroidBrainia has way too much baggage due to being coined off Metroidvania, which itself is an already strained term especially as its derived from a specific game rather than a description of actual gameplay. For example 'Doom Clone' was popular in 1990's but eventually replaced by 'First person shooter' and these days those old style Doom games are known as 'Boomer shooters'.
@kunai9809
Ай бұрын
@@noisecrimenah, when you say "curiosity driven" I think of Skyrim or Elden ring with landmarks that make you wonder what you are gonna find over there. Knowledge-based is pretty good I think
@AxinZeith
Ай бұрын
I like calling them Brainia games because I feel the Metroid part is unnecessary.
@noisecrime
Ай бұрын
@@kunai9809 While those games can involve curiosity they are neither driven by it, nor required. More so curiosity here refers to more than landmarks, its the curiosity of knowledge, curiosity of experiences, curiosity of puzzles/how things work etc.
@RelyeaGaming
3 ай бұрын
Fantastic job with this video. Easy sub. You will be at 10k quick with quality like this
@Neopolis3
3 ай бұрын
Great video, big fan of this "genre" Where Void Stranger?
@mariaj1702
3 ай бұрын
For anyone else interested in these Metroidbrania or Knowledge-Based Games, I recommend both: - Void Stranger: puzzle focused - Rain World: exploration kinda, it's hard as hell but worth it
@mothichorror446
2 ай бұрын
As much as I enjoy Rain World, it doesn't really fit the Knowledge-based genre so well since all you're "learning" is how to get where you're going. Unlike Outer Wilds, where you progress by figuring out new rules, Rain World's progression is by moving forward.
@mariaj1702
2 ай бұрын
@@mothichorror446 I disagree ngl, althought I see what you mean, a lot of the game's content is just locked behind knowledge, knowledge of how to do X movement technique, knowledge of how to use different items, how different animals act etc. At least to me it feels like a knowledge based game for it, but I can understand your point of view.
@BrinaaSM
2 ай бұрын
I wanna add that Void Stranger is specifically Sokoban-focused and quite punishing, which doesn't work for a lot of people who only enjoy games for their next layers. If you like Sokoban, by all means I recommend.
@spyro1139
3 ай бұрын
When I heard the Outer Wilds Soundtrack kick in, I knew this was gonna be a really good vid
@holycrimpsauce
3 ай бұрын
The smile on my face when it came on.
@MrMelonsz
2 ай бұрын
I love it when a game is so amazing that any reference to it makes you go crazy lmaoo. 😂
@sampiainen1912
3 ай бұрын
I agree that Outer wild is basically the definitive "metroidbrainia". I almost prefer the term "wildslike" for this genre since many of the games are so far removed from traditional metroidvanias.
@camdenwyeth316
3 ай бұрын
Eh, this is my favorite genre of game and for some reason I just couldn't stand outer wilds
@chanclink2383
3 ай бұрын
I personaly have heard that Outer Wild would more likely be a "KnowledgeVania", the name is pretty self-explainatory, it's a metroivania where you are not block because of lacking powers but because of lacking knowledge. I like it more
@JMoat13
3 ай бұрын
I think the issue with Outer Wilds being called a metroidbrania is most of what you can see you can get to right at the beginning even with no knowledge. You're knowledge doesn't reveal the map more so what you know about the world. I feel like a core part of the Metroidvania games is unlocking new areas of the world to find and explore. Sure that exists in Outer Wilds to a degree but then there are games like Obra Dinn that shares a lot of its game dna with OW which I would put in the same genre, but no one would argue Obra Dinn is a Metroidvania or even close to it. I like the term "wildslike" for games where you progress with knowledge and in general a lot of these games overlap well with the metroidvania genre.
@noelvalenzarro
3 ай бұрын
@@camdenwyeth316it’s a story puzzle game so if you love exploration and adventure and digging for lore in this game this game makes reading lore the way to gain knowledge to advance further
@nottucks
3 ай бұрын
Why Outer Wilds? FEZ popularized this. Or do we still like slighting Phil Fish.
@trbz_8745
3 ай бұрын
I see Antichamber in thumbnail, I click. Simple as that.
@LB_
3 ай бұрын
One of my favorite games which is also among the most misunderstood games
@Atlessa
3 ай бұрын
Same. Such an underrated gem.
@sebastianzarek7056
3 ай бұрын
Antichamber appreciation club here ^^^
@RED01SEA
3 ай бұрын
Game is ahead of it time , I wish the dev makes a sequel or just remake it with more mechanics and better art style
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
Thanks, was trying to remember the name of it. Was thinking it was Manifold Garden as I haven't played that either.
@seanimo8579
3 ай бұрын
Does anyone remember Toki Tori 2? That’s gotta be the epitome of MetroidBrainia. You’re limited to just 2 actions, stomping and whistling. It looks like a MetroidVania on first glance, but you never unlock any new abilities. Everything in the game is gated by your awareness of how to use the whistle and stomp to get past the obstacles.
@drnanard9605
2 ай бұрын
YES! I just made a comment about that game, glad I'm not the only one who played it
@panampace
2 ай бұрын
This game is THE metroidbrainia
@bananatheo3796
Ай бұрын
YES!!! I need more people to play toki tori 2 because it is SUCH a good game.
@ZerogunRivale
Ай бұрын
Was this the original Metroidbrainia? I remember someone talking about this as its selling point back when it first came out.
@johnsmith2875
Күн бұрын
@@ZerogunRivalenah I would argue there’s older games like “la mulana” that fall into this category
@dorusie5
3 ай бұрын
Noita would fit this description in the roquelike category
@Tsunami14
Ай бұрын
Yes!! I'm deep in the Noita knowledge trenches as we speak, so that's one of the first games which came to mind.
@StepperBox
3 ай бұрын
9:26 oh thats just mean.
@VitorMach
3 ай бұрын
I still revisit Outer Wilds sometimes... Just for sightseeing, the music, and visiting the Sun station...
@thaneros
2 ай бұрын
I really can't go back to the game. I want to and I *need* to play the DLC but just can't do it. Too many emotions.
@VitorMach
2 ай бұрын
@@thaneros the DLC is amazing, and quite long as well. But yes, there will be feels
@azzam-ji9fh
2 ай бұрын
@@thanerosdude the dlc is absolute perfection imo, it’s literally them saying “we can make outer wilds again if we wanted to.”
@swan-cloud
Ай бұрын
yeah i don't get people who call the game "unreplayable", don't get me wrong, it's a completely different experience, but knowing it all heighens the emotions for me.
@chastermief839
3 ай бұрын
I 100% agree about the community puzzles & ARG stuff. They can be fun, they have been done well in the past and I'm sure there will be more in the future. But it's starting to feel a little bit rote at this point, i guess? Like the final (the ACTUAL final) puzzle of Tunic is a community ARG and when i got to that point i was incredibly disappointed. It really felt like that developers wanted to "heighten" the puzzle solving stuff and the only way they could think to go bigger was to do this, even though none of the puzzles up to that point required that level of dedication or labor from the community. Also mad props to the dedication to spoiler-free. These are some of my favorite games of all time, and it always breaks my heart a little to see other youtubers just flagrantly expose all the fun stuff and ruin the games for their audiences.
@MythicalRedFox
2 ай бұрын
Personally I think calling the final final puzzle an ARG is overstating it. Once you're there you're done anyway; all that's left I would categorize as easter eggs rather than puzzles.
@karlhendrikse
2 ай бұрын
I think the way Tunic did it was great. It's 100% obvious that any further puzzles from that point onwards (I agree though that there aren't actually any more puzzles, just easter eggs) use information from outside the game itself. Because last time I checked there is no web browser in the game. It's a very clear way of doing it. Animal Well could take some notes.
@theresnothinghere1745
Ай бұрын
I'm gonna have to disagree with Tunic's ARG puzzle. Its clearly an optional thing not at all tied to the main game itself with how few links it does have to the base game. Tunic is very good at presenting the mountain door as the 'final puzzle' for any individual playing the game with how the very first mechanic ties into framing it. Compare that to Animal well or Noita that go into ARG territory without much rhyme or reason. Those games have no framing around the puzzles to focus players onto what they can do or what they should rely on a community for instead its just scattered everywhere and you're expected to just figure it out.
@vladspellbinder
3 ай бұрын
Holy shit Chip's Challenge was one of my favorite games back in the day. Nice to see other people still remember it. Thank you for the video.
@LonkinPork
Ай бұрын
It's free on Steam! It's a port of the Atari Lynx version though, rather than the Windows version that most people remember (and that's shown in the video), meaning it runs a little more "smoothly" in real time instead of the quasi-turn-based feel of the Windows version The sequel that got shelved when Atari discontinued the Lynx is also on there for like $2, it's basically just a massive level pack
@vladspellbinder
Ай бұрын
@@LonkinPork Thanks for telling me! Off to Steam to grab them now.
@SupremeDP
3 ай бұрын
Tunic was REAL nice. The story and lore were snoozers coming from Hollow Knight, but solving the mountain door and deciphering the language was some of the most fun I've had in games in a while. And yes, I deciphered it myself. Took about 5 hours or so, lol. I will, however, forever hold up that the softest feather can suck my ass.
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
did you know there's a second, tonal language that the faeries speak and that plays in other places? the sound engineer for the game made a detailed twitter thread about it a while back.
@karlhendrikse
2 ай бұрын
I agree with everything here, especially that the haiku is garbage. I solved every puzzle in the game completely blind except for that one where I gave up after 2 days and cheated. I even completed the game a second time in NG+, theorising that I started out "soft" and needed to raise my stats to 11 or something. Terrible "puzzle".
@LegallyJusticefied
3 ай бұрын
Leap Year released like a week before this video and is a pinnacle distillation of a pure metroidbrainia. Zero unlockable items as progression is exclusively knowledge gated. Captures the entire spirit of the genre within an under 2 hour play time.
@nataliexists
3 ай бұрын
yoo was waiting for someone to mention leap year
@electra_
3 ай бұрын
adding it to the list, thank you
@lukechase6346
2 ай бұрын
Bought it based off this comment alone
@LegallyJusticefied
2 ай бұрын
@@lukechase6346 Nice! Let me know how what you think of it. It's a very cool game
@lukechase6346
2 ай бұрын
@@LegallyJusticefied got about as much fun out of it as I did out of mosalina, definitely worth the price. Didn't really feel like going for the speedrun achievements though
@AmantePatata
3 ай бұрын
I call them puzzlevanias
@drnanard9605
2 ай бұрын
I'm not sure it's an accurate descriptor, but it sounds rad as hell
@ubersoldat91
2 ай бұрын
Dude Chips Challenge! Thats a classic, one of my first gaming memories. Bummer!
@diegofloor
3 ай бұрын
I'm actually working on one right now! I have to say I hate the name 'metroidbrainia' with a passion though. But anyway, It has been very tough advertising the game, exactly because there is no defined audience or name. I can tell everyone who played my prototype had no idea what I was talking about, and I know people who do love this genre haven't found my game yet.
@diegofloor
3 ай бұрын
By the way, if anyone wants to check it out, I would really appreciate it. I could really use the extra reach. You can see it in my uploaded videos, a trailer and a playthrough of the prototype. It's a cinematic platformer for the megadrive, strongly rooted in information games.
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
That looks cool!~ Good move making it for the Mega Drive that's the system of the future ;) hehe just teasing. :)
@logosimian
3 ай бұрын
"I explore around and find things that unlock new areas" is the category of Adventure Games, of which Metroidvania is a subset. Zelda isn't a game that could have been called a Metroidvania if it weren't for an arbitrary rule about 2D platforming. Rather, Zeldas and Metroidvanias are different kinds of Adventure games (and, in fact, different kinds of Action Adventure games.) Like... I shouldn't get so worked up about this. Genres are marketing categories, and they are notoriously non-systematic. People shouldn't fight over buzzwords devised or pushed by salesmen. But freaking text adventures and point and click adventures have the explore/unlock loop. Adventure as a genre predates Metroid and Castlevania by a good large amount, and both Metroid, and Castlevania, and for that matter Zelda, are consciously trying to be Adventures. And every five minutes some KZitemr notices, "hey, this broader swath of games has something in common with Metroidvanias," but doesn't notice that, yes, and that broader swath already has a perfectly good name that has nothing wrong with it, and Metroidvanias have always intended to be part of that broader swath, man, it bugs me.
@theletsplaycurse
3 ай бұрын
I think that most of the problem comes with how restrictive these weird genres are since a lot of the time these genres fill a very niche type of game which I think inherently narrows a games potential if it’s trying to fit itself into that genre. For example with the roguelike genre, these games all have the mechanic of completely or at least mostly resetting your progress whenever you fail a challenge or die and also maybe giving you rewards based on how well you did. They also seem to mostly be top down, intense action games which rely on lots of randomness to provide a fresh experience whenever you restart. Although there are some good games here, there aren’t many that stand out on their own as unique or interesting however if we loosened the definition and mostly focused on the action and resetting mechanic then a lot more interesting games are now included like Zelda majora’s mask and I think there would be a lot more interesting games like majora’s mask if people didn’t try to develop games for very specific genres.
@Azel954
3 ай бұрын
All of these games are based off Colossal Cave and later Myst/Riven. It's fucking embarrassing how badly game history has failed these kids. Phil Fish: The game is based off Riven. Blow: The game is based off Myst. Outer Wilds Devs: It was envisioned as a text adventure. Gamers: What do we call this genre. Morons man...
@greggross2936
3 ай бұрын
Ok, I agree with you, but I have to say, *clutching a plucked chicken* "Behold! A man!"
@LutraLovegood
3 ай бұрын
@@theletsplaycurse Funny you say that because there were plenty of interesting roguelikes, which all got thrown under the bus once games like FTL, Rogue Legacy and Binding of Isaac came out and people redefined roguelikes to include those games, and yet people are still making interesting games in those genres. Majora's Mask also has little to do with roguelikes, be they modern, classic, antique or what have you. It's an action adventure game with a time-loop thematic and mechanic. I'm not even sure of what you're asking for, devs aren't following a checklist when making games to make sure they fit in a genre.
@theletsplaycurse
3 ай бұрын
@@LutraLovegood see that’s kind of my problem, I said specifically majora’s mask could be considered a roguelike if we loosened the definition to games that reset your progress before allowing you to progress further which I think would be healthy for the genre overall if it was considered to be such. What I would want to come from this is that developers would be able to be a lot more creative and create games with a much broader appeal.
@rowanwilson5859
3 ай бұрын
La Mulana 1 and 2 are my personal favorites of the genre. insane games with crazyyy puzzles. check them out!
@atwistedwarmembrace
3 ай бұрын
All of my favourite games in one place! I'm now playing through Chants of Senaar looking for another dopamine-filled brain-a-thon. I was hoping I'd find something I haven't already played in this video, but the only one was Chip's Challenge, and I think I'm alright skipping that. Great video!
@Jishwasher
3 ай бұрын
The La Mulana games are pretty good metroidbrania games. Just be warned that they ask a lot from the player in terms of problem solving and patience.
@The578unit
3 ай бұрын
It's not quite the same, but I would recommend giving Heaven's Vault a look
@MHMega
3 ай бұрын
You should give Void Stranger a shot, it’s absolutely one of the best in this genre and criminally underrated
@VidGamesPete
3 ай бұрын
Chips Challenge is a puzzle game. It's really awesome. It was one of the few games I had on Windows 98 back in the day and we played so much of it. It doesn't have the flair of modern games but it's still good.
@Alayric
3 ай бұрын
Best genre indeed! I share your opinion on community puzzles, they are uninteresting after they've been solved. And they are a frustrating when you play fully blind (the way the genre is best experienced). They are okayish for a small easter egg, otherwise I'd rather have them not included in the main parts of the game (like Animal Well (great game) unfortunately did). Also, La-Mulana is a masterpiece. ❤
@danielshults5243
3 ай бұрын
Community puzzles are great for ARGs but I don't care for them in metroidbrainias.
@thegoat9219
3 ай бұрын
A game I see no one mention in this genre is Heaven's Vault. It was amazing. You go diacovering a forgotten language to discover the past of the world. Id say its a story game with the metroidbrania aspect being in the language but its AMAZING everyone in this genre needs to try it. Also, there are so many ways to reach the many endings this has and things you can miss and still finish the game Not to mention it has replayability and I still think people Haven't solved everything about the game
@chaoslord8918
2 ай бұрын
The beginning of this video convinced me to get Fez (and I already want Animal Well), but the ending makes me think that maybe I don't. I'm right there with you that these super-esoteric mandatory community/look-up solutions go against the philosophy of these kinds of games, and take some of that experience from the player. I think the way you describe The Witness as "if you were locked in a room with no internet, you could probably 100% it eventually" should be somewhere in the design philosophy, especially for single-player puzzle games. The solution should be in the game, not in the spectrograph of the soundtrack.
@johnsmith2875
Күн бұрын
Totally agree. Specialized knowledge in coding and programming will never be an appealing aspect of these games for me. I don’t like ARGs because they usually have stuff like this.
@silverstar4505
3 ай бұрын
I absolutely agree on the community puzzle part. Finding out the puzzle is something I would've never figured out feels really bad. Also what's the music at 2:55?
@faux_hex
2 ай бұрын
Melody sounds like Outer Wilds travelers theme, which is probably that or variation of the song
@FuryForged
3 ай бұрын
Great video
@kolofre
3 ай бұрын
I actually thought of Noita!
@washaa
3 ай бұрын
Making a video like this without mentioning La-Mulana seems criminal
@OldyAlbert
3 ай бұрын
It's my favorite series but I don't think it fits. It'sore of aetr metroidvania with puzzles in it then about knowledge of the rules. But to be fair so is animal well, it's just metroidvania without combat and with puzzles
@Froggoss
3 ай бұрын
I call these "knowledge-based games" - games which require the player to gain certain knowledge to complete; however, these are (mostly) unreplayable, since you go through them once and get all the knowledge needed to complete the game. Sure, there may be some other elements you need to find/unlock to get to the game's end, but the main element - the knowledge - has already been gained on the first playthrough. I think that to be a "metroidbrainia" you also need to be... a traditional metroidvania. Here: metroidbrainias are games which not only require the player to gain certain knowledge to progress, but also heavily require other types of collectibles - abilities, items, etc. - in order to complete. The one example I can think of is Animal Well, where, while you *do* need knowledge to progress, you also need items to use your knowledge on.
@thegoat9219
3 ай бұрын
I just call them "peak"
@Plexicraft
3 ай бұрын
Hey, that's me at 0:03 :D I'm so pumped more people are talking about these sorts of games!
@MrEnvisioner
3 ай бұрын
Nice video. I've always just considered this genre the "Wildslike" akin to roguelike's etymology. Another term I like is to call them "epiphonic" games since knowledge of mechanics drives progression, and thus it's all geared around making players have groundbreaking epiphanies that change their view of the entire game.
@MythicalRedFox
2 ай бұрын
Epiphonic is a really cool term, I might have to start saying that. Personally I like the term Tunicwilds, à la Metroidvania: making a portmanteau out of the two most notable examples of a genre.
@jeremyblack1929
Ай бұрын
@@MythicalRedFox Fez is a much older and arguably more impactful game. Fezlike also rolls off the tongue? Dunno. Seems odd to name it after games that came out about a decade later.
@TheAstralBlade
3 ай бұрын
OUTER WILDS MENTIONED RAAAAH But in all seriousness, some of the terms like metroidvania or wildslike seem very interesting! Though I'm most certaintly biased. If the focus is just on knowledge-based curiosity and exploration, Wildslike might be a better term, especially if a game doesnt have those broader metroidvania aspects - only time will tell to see of more games come fill out that niche, though!
@lndtbs
3 ай бұрын
Funny you should start with Chip's Challenge, go play Void Stranger.
@microsand
3 ай бұрын
I have to agree, one of the best games I've ever played
@seraaron
2 ай бұрын
We need better words for a bunch of genres. Metroidvanias, Souls-likes, Rouge-likes(lites)... essentially any genre that's named after another game.
@Omni315
3 ай бұрын
Chip's Challenge! That's what it was called!
@bradbradson4543
3 ай бұрын
Omg I played chips challenge on windows 3.1 omggg
@EGE4owo
3 ай бұрын
Antichamber mentioned!! WTF ARE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥
@MatthewMMorrow
3 ай бұрын
Yes! Saw that in the thumbnail. Super underrated game.
@soggydeadwolf1981
2 ай бұрын
I'm built different, I've played Outer Wilds twice. I just liked it so much that I went around and discovered everything again. I've beaten it several times as well, just repeating the ending. I am very passionate about Outer Wilds.
@roscostanton6644
3 ай бұрын
Should they be called "Well" types? Because they get deeper and deeper?
@thespeedyyoshi
3 ай бұрын
I like that ^^
@nano_warrior
3 ай бұрын
or they should be called lasagna type games
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
Onion Quests cuz they got layers
@Azozalbazbooz
3 ай бұрын
How about to review La-Mulana 1 & 2 Hidden Treasures . It's hardest metroidvania + Metroidbrainia games . I beat these games by myself without using any guides ( 200 - 300 hours per one game ). Sorry about my English 😅
@JohannesFactotum
3 ай бұрын
Great video describing my favorite type of game in recent years. As much as it would be amazing to have a game like this that reaches that level of replayability, that larger than life "a-ha!" moment is what cements these games in my mind, and makes the whole experience worthwhile and worth the price of admission. Also I appreciate the discussion of the big community driven endgame meta puzzles that a lot of these games have and how frustrating it is that only a select few people will ever experience properly. Reaching the final secret in Tunic after so much work only to be met with an ARG that I'm too stupid to understand was a bit of a letdown, but I do understand the value and excitement it can hold for others.
@llpBR
3 ай бұрын
I loved Fez back then, but this layer os things to decipher were not nice at all. I don't like to use guides or being forced to use external knowledge. To me games should all be self contained. I was trying to play tunic and now you put it along with Fez, I'll get back to it
@tojo8679
3 ай бұрын
This is literally my favorite game genre and I've played hundreds of games. I've always just called them knowledge based games. There's a great video that superdude made on them
@isaac9721
3 ай бұрын
Idk if i would agree with you that Animal Well does a better job signaling ARGs than fez. Maybe my experience was differemt than yours, but I found that knowing "you cant solve red cubes on your own" was much better than "you can solve most, but not all bunnies on your own".
@SobreDunas
3 ай бұрын
Although fez doesn't really signal you what puzzle will give you a red cube, all of them are marked with an interrogation on the map. If you don't know anything about the game you're just gonna get frustrated. How do you know that the red cube puzzles are nearly impossible if you don't even know that red cubes are a thing? The game never alludes to them at any point until you collect your first one
@JestroGameDev
3 ай бұрын
0:47 yo chip’s challenge reference
@alonsogarde4161
3 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for this,i have been searching for YEARS for games similar to outer wilds or the witness and because of this video i can find some examples even in the comments. Great work man,instantly suscribed
@SaltyIsaac
3 ай бұрын
I've read a lot of discussions about how to define this "genre", what games should or shouldn't be counted in it, or whether the genre exists in the first place, and to be honest, I haven't really made up my mind about it, and I wish to see more writing or videos about it. But my current takeaway is that, I feel like defining a group of games by whether their progression system is unlock-based or knowledge-based is a bit arbitrary for an entire genre. First off, as you've shown, many of the games we consider to be part of the genre don't fully rely on knowledge-based progression. But even for Outer Wilds, the game which many would consider to be the best example of the genre (or even the best game of all time), pure knowledge-based progression isn't even that important. in Alex Beachum's conference "Designing for Curiosity", out of 20 minutes, he spends a grand total of 20 seconds to mention this aspect of the game, and when asked about it in a question later, he says it's totally optional. You could also mention the fact that older games have had knowledge-based progression, either in part (super metroid) or in full (toki tori 2). Yet you don't really see those games mentioned when people talk about games similar to OW/TUNIC/FEZ etc. While on the other hand, games like Obra Dinn do get mentioned regularly, despite not adhering to the rules of the "genre", as you've shown. Rather than looking at mechanics, we should be looking at the *feelings* these games give us, as I believe that is the reason we group these games together when talking about them. They encourage us to let our minds wander, sometimes focusing on specific details, sometimes thinking about the game at large, confident in the fact that there is actually something we can figure out and that it will lead to a tangible reward. They surprise us with stuff that was right under our noses to make us wonder what else we missed, what else there is to see. They shower us with bits of information, sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle, hints and clues that we get curious about as we know they actually mean something. To me, Outer Wilds is the best one because it unapologetically and exclusively focuses on that: curiosity. As show by Alex Beachum, most if not all large-scale design decisions in the game focus on making the player curious and rewarding that curiosity. It makes that feeling the core element of the game and the only thing that drives it forward, to the point that it becomes a very unusual and weird game that some new players bounce off of when they don't get what they should be doing. But when you vibe with it... man.
@santiagovidelaleiva
3 ай бұрын
I do think theres something to be said that both Super Metroid and Toki Tori 2 form part of this genre. Toki tori 2 probably isnt mention much because not many people have actually played it. But on the other hand, Super Metroid is probably a little difficult to perceive. In reality, the base game ("layer one") of Animal Well isnt really that much different at all to Super Metroid in terms of puzzles, is just devoid of combat. In simplest terms, just the mere act of putting a high ledge you cant reach and then give you a double jump or high jump is in fact a puzzle in any metroidvania. Same for a far away ledge and giving you a mid air dash. But for most metroidvanias we kinda ignore it because they are really consistent and apparent after playing your first one. But thats were super metroid kinda stands out of other metroidvanias and even other metroids, you have the two knowlegde rooms (the wall jump and shinespark rooms), they do a pretty poor job explaining what to do (or at leats for me, i was stuck in each for like an hour) and technically neither are really necessary knowlegde to beat the game. But one that is pretty important is the freeze ray, freezing enemies mid air and using them as plataforms is key to progress. You could even start talking about how combat in some games is some sort of puzzle by itself, but thats a more of a different topic. I guess theres a factor were i see super metroid as more of puzzle game besides being also a metroidvania because it was my first too. The genre itself is plagued with these simple puzzles all over the game, the mysterious green door opened by the newly aquired green missile is technically a puzzle reduced to its simplest form.
@Lyoishi
3 ай бұрын
In Alex Bechum's presentation, which you mention, he defines a curiosity as a location that answers a question, aka has knowledge. So I would argue he spends all 22 minutes talking about the same contextual knowledge we are concerned with for the possible genre, not 20 seconds. You are right that the talk is not very concerned with progression in the traditional sense.
@Llortnerof
3 ай бұрын
Genres are ultimately arbitrary distinctions to begin with. They're abstract categories to simplify communication. So something blending, breaking or just not fitting into any genres neatly is pretty much what you'd expect to happen.
@firelasto
3 ай бұрын
toki tori 2 is absolutely a metroidbrainia, super metroid isnt though. not only because by definition and linguistic origins its a metroidvania, and therefor cant be a subset of metroidvania when its existance is what defined the metroidvania genre. progression and gameplay in super metroid is about collecting items that factually upgrade your character and abilities, theres no secret code you can input or know to warp straight to riddley, theres no codes that need deciphered, theres no puzzles that need solving. theres some intangible blocks that lead to a few optional items but thats not what a metroidbrainia is about. they arent problems to be solved, theyre secrets to be told about.
@Lyoishi
3 ай бұрын
@@firelasto Metroid is at least worth including in the discussion, eg. are the animal well hidden movement techniques really unique secrets or even required for progression? Then what about Metroid's bomb jumps which aren't explained explicitly by the game but which are required for progression? What about more advanced Mario Odyssey movement cappy tech that is totally optional? Does the "brainia" part refer to knowledge not explicitly explained? knowledge that significantly alters gameplay? or does it refer to knowledge being mandatory for progression? Since at a minimum the discussion is fairly new we need to be on the same page. Since you brought up animal well mechanics I have an opinion you may find interesting. While puzzles are very fun, imo secret codes are just as boring as keys, simply not as interesting compared to having gameplay/techniques/lore which were always available to the player from the start if they had an open mind and experimented. I suppose this depends on what you count as being open to the player, Since the warp whistle is egg locked but then after that you can technically brute force a small number of codes.
@Iteration456-8_codename_goblin
3 ай бұрын
My recent favorite outer wilds like game is Chants of Sennaar Super fun and intriguing if you haven’t tried it out
@BigFudge04
3 ай бұрын
This is one of those videos for me where I think "Wow this video is really well made! This guy must have a lot of subs." It turns out you don't, but you definetly deserve them!
@Smeagol44
2 ай бұрын
I watched this video in hopes of finding something else in the likes of Tunic, Outer Wilds, The Witness, Animal Well and FEZ... only to find out that those were the only mentioned games in the video. 😭 Awesome video, btw! Love it!
@emmanueldiazguerra
2 ай бұрын
Check the comments, there's a lot of good looking recommendations, I'm scouring through them.
@frogfan449
3 ай бұрын
My all time favourite "metroidbrainia" must be the puzzle book "ABDEC". All except the basics of the rule set is not told AND solution validation is obviously not automatic. The only way to learn the rules is to check that thy rule set gives a unique solution to every puzzle. It also of course has non-linear progression and meta puzzles :). The point about non-automatic solution validation is really clever and is something that more games should use
@frogfan449
3 ай бұрын
I suppose Return of the Obra Din somewhat does this as well, by only validating I think triplets as opposed to individual solutions
@chucklebutt4470
3 ай бұрын
Whoa, that book looks cool as hell!!
@headphoneheadache7667
3 ай бұрын
I will disagree on you on the bunny mural puzzle, mostly as it isn't required for the game at all, depending on how define fully completing something. People talk often about Animal Well as layers 1 to 4, with a lot of people stopping after layer 2. You got to the credits twice at this point and with that, you could say it's fully completed. There are extra things that you know of, but the experience so far is where most people will be comfortable at (and all can be done as a single player.) You might stumble and even solved some of layer 3 or even 4, but in the end those become community puzzles. For spoilers: They layers seems to be: 1-Defeating the first manticore 2-Collect all the eggs for the second manticore 3-All the secret bunnies 4-The secret with those bunnies and the unicode puzzle for the time-capsule. However, there is speculation that there exist a 5th layer as there are some hidden secrets and people wondering why some of these are things in the game.
@leaftune4427
3 ай бұрын
Yeah, the dev didn't expect anyone to complete layer 3 (let alone 4 which I think he groups with layer 3.) I was able to get a little over half of tbe bunny puzzles myself, and those are some of my favorite in the game. Though I didn't mind getting help for the community puzzles, having been a part of an ARG in the past, just reading the past discussions around it kinda give a second-hand thrill.
@karlhendrikse
2 ай бұрын
Yes great, the problem is that the "layers" don't actually exist if you're playing the game properly (blind). You just come across the bunny puzzle, try to solve it, and have absolutely no idea that it's impossible. So you waste, potentially, infinite time on it.
@typeswitch
3 ай бұрын
i've heard it called "mystroid" before (you know, after Myst and Metroid). i would put la mulana (and la mulana 2) in that category. (also void stranger to some extent. it's less platformy, more puzzley.)
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