I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded. Cheers Matt
@rambozo_fpv176
3 ай бұрын
Absolutely agree! Best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done!
@philippe94416
3 ай бұрын
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ? Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose. The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north. I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
@rh_BOSS
3 ай бұрын
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@frontiervirtcharter
3 ай бұрын
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
@will_henry
3 ай бұрын
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Will, much appreciated !
@Youtuber-k2p
3 ай бұрын
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@bobcousins4810
3 ай бұрын
@@KZitemr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@ronthered138
3 ай бұрын
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
@trikepilot101
3 ай бұрын
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
@zachariaszut
3 ай бұрын
The Roman Enigma Machine... Cheers.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks @zachariaszut - Exactly !
@josepherhardt164
2 ай бұрын
Perhaps they had Alanus Turingus to help.
@jamesclawson9156
3 ай бұрын
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks James, I really appreciated your comments !
@superstring101
3 ай бұрын
Great video, Matt. This is the best explanation of the purpose for the dodecahedron I've seen. Congratulations on your 1st video!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks @superstring101 ! I'm just following the facts that we have found so far.
@moonbeamstry5321
3 ай бұрын
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman! A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks ! - I'm glad you liked it
@ronthered138
3 ай бұрын
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily. An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
@donaldboyer8182
3 ай бұрын
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks Ron, I really think that you've hit the nail on the head with your batch manufacturing and distribution ideas - well done !
@rambozo_fpv176
3 ай бұрын
The best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done! Youve put the pieces together that nobody else could!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thank you for your kind reply !
@rambozo_fpv176
3 ай бұрын
@@frontenac5083 Curious to hear your arguments.
@briangoss8062
3 ай бұрын
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@associatedblacksheepandmisfits
2 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevanwould the same apply to Icosahedron also ?
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
@kevinurben6005
3 ай бұрын
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
@ratatoskr1069
3 ай бұрын
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@kevinurben6005
3 ай бұрын
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
@michaelj.beglinjr.2804
3 ай бұрын
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Yes - that is the most skillful part of the decoding - that's where I think that the rings surrounding the holes help the decoder with this process.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
if indeed you owned the correct wheel.
@MegaPeedee
3 ай бұрын
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks very much for your insight. Cheers
@uncleheavy6819
3 ай бұрын
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network. It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@ratatoskr1069
3 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
@lostbutfreesoul
3 ай бұрын
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size? Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself.... As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work? Also... what about tolerance? Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller.... or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
@salec7592
3 ай бұрын
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
@menelise
2 ай бұрын
@@lostbutfreesoulwell, they would need to be the same size for the sealing aspect to work, though not for the ecoding-decoding.
@GEHDunedin
3 ай бұрын
Well, colour me impressed! This is such a well thought out solution to the mystery and the most compelling I've seen to date.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
your comments are much appreciated !
@christophercollard3284
3 ай бұрын
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome. Cheers Matt
@manuelkong10
3 ай бұрын
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@baskoning9896
3 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
@PaulG.x
3 ай бұрын
You would have to ask a Roman slave if it was too big.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
absolutely, Manuel - spot on !
@cybrpypr
3 ай бұрын
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@lostbutfreesoul
3 ай бұрын
The lack of documentation on their use is what messes with me too.....
@Matt.Geevan
17 күн бұрын
@@lostbutfreesoul Yes - this is really frustrating, but it's all part of the mystery !
@erikziak1249
3 ай бұрын
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the KZitem algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the KZitem algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your kind comments, Erik !
@billyblunham66
3 ай бұрын
First prize! I think you cracked it, love the down-to-earth approach. Can see no flaws yet.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much Billy !
@rerooar
2 ай бұрын
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
@c0zzar0ner0
2 ай бұрын
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text. Anyway, very interesting.
@wrathofatlantis2316
3 ай бұрын
Makes perfect sense with the military camp pattern of discovery, within harshly contested territories. Absolutely brilliant.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks for your comments, Wrath !
@lubumbashi6666
2 ай бұрын
Makes no sense at all. You don't need an object like that to line up wheels.
@wrathofatlantis2316
2 ай бұрын
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@@lubumbashi6666 but which wheel do you need to use ?
@txorimorea3869
3 ай бұрын
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your observation ! Cheers Matt
@GemApps
3 ай бұрын
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it @GemApps !
@fixitlater
3 ай бұрын
This totally made my evening!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks !
@Valisk131
3 ай бұрын
Fascinating and logical. Made perfect sense to me . Thanks for the video.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks @Valisk131 Glad you liked it!
@Youtuber-k2p
3 ай бұрын
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
@Dsfjrj1
3 ай бұрын
Great video man and honestly the best and most logical answer I’ve seen to the mystery
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks @fatmatt1746 - I've just tried to follow the evidence. Cheers Matt
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
That's the most illogical use I've seen for the word "logical".
@Imperiused
3 ай бұрын
Very clever... very clever... My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo. Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments. Cheers Matt
@hernerweisenberg7052
3 ай бұрын
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
@Deppel57
3 ай бұрын
Maybe the system was abandoned
@mikev4621
3 ай бұрын
@@Deppel57 Nobody uses Nokias anymore : )
@Atrahasis7
3 ай бұрын
@@Deppel57 Most likely yes and replaced by another system.
@random_Person347
3 ай бұрын
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting ! I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use. Cheers Matt
@random_Person347
3 ай бұрын
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
Very heterodox use of the word "convincing".
@briancounts4884
3 ай бұрын
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it Brian !
@WilliamHassard
3 ай бұрын
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much, William - yes, that's a really interesting point !
@richardallday7387
2 ай бұрын
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory: 1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise). 2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly? 3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……). My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods. 4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ? As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair? Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire. Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories. I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron. The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement. Cheers Matt
@davetaylor4741
3 ай бұрын
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Absolutely Dave !
@frontiervirtcharter
3 ай бұрын
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
@djdhdhfsshheid3441
2 ай бұрын
Not only was I entertained but illuminated as well! Bravo, sir!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
thank you !
@CoffeeWorker13
3 ай бұрын
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you. For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use. Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times. Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT. "1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions. 2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction. 3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks CoffeWorker - a really interesting reply !
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
An AI programme does not "reason". Therefore, all these "conclusions" are bound to be flawed to begin with.
@CoffeeWorker13
3 ай бұрын
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours. The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without. You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you. Have a nice day. PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning? What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
@alexanderguesthistorical7842
3 ай бұрын
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Alexander ! I really found your comments interesting. The icosahedron is probably a totally different subject. Cheers
@davejob630
3 ай бұрын
By jove I believe you've cracked it/ Well done!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
your comments are appreciated @davejob630, I just tried to follow the facts
@RogerMondo
2 ай бұрын
Regarding the Roman Dodecahedron, the proposed purpose that I like most is “Candle Holder”. -The holes fit various sizes of candles, since there was no standardized manufacturing -Heavy and stable - very important with a burning candle -Will not catch fire when candle burns down -Rings on each face catch dripping wax (which was found on some of them) -The ball feet keep it stable on irregular surfaces -The Dodecahedron are found in the northern parts of the Roman Empire where winter nights are longer and candles were more necessary and valuable.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
That's okay, Roger. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
@laurencedarabia2000
3 ай бұрын
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Your reply is much appreciated @laurencedarabia2000 Thanks !
@ben-jam-in6941
29 күн бұрын
That sir is one heck of an impressive feat. It is without doubt a very realistic reason for the dodecahedrons and I really think you have cracked it. To me it is just too much of a coincidence that all these steps line up so perfectly for it not to have been their purpose. Congratulations
@Matt.Geevan
27 күн бұрын
Thanks very much for your very kind comments , Ben ! here is some evidence from the same time in history to support it :- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44 Cheers Matt
@nufosmatic
3 ай бұрын
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
@Dagroovi
3 ай бұрын
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
@maggs131
3 ай бұрын
If his decoder theory is correct then only two had to match, the ones issuing orders and the one receiving them
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Exactly Dagroovi ! Thank you
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
you are correct Maggs - we only have to find two which are the same.
@TheJCMorgan
3 ай бұрын
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
@daveweiss5647
3 ай бұрын
This is great! I have been curious about these objects for years and this seems to be the most plausible explanation yet!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
much appreciated, Dave !
@forthleft
3 ай бұрын
Thank you. One off the bucket-list.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Cheers !
@mattensix9091
3 ай бұрын
Congratulations, that is the most convincing explanation so far! Your explanation makes so much sense! And I imagine the process was very similar to your demonstration.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thank you, Matt !
@bobcousins4810
3 ай бұрын
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere. One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense. Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much Bob for your comments !
@jonviol
2 ай бұрын
I'd like to add some further details confirming the technical sophistication of this item's manufacture . Lost Wax casting or investment casting enables a 3D form to be produced in one pour as the copy wax is melted out of the moulded plaster , or similar material into which the wax was immersed leaving the accurate void to be filled . This filling has to be done quickly into a hot mould to prevent 'freezing' of the molten metal . It must flow into every void and expel all the air so sprues and runners and risers and pouring cups are added, in wax, prior to investing . It is a hugely skilled technique to guarantee a complete fill every cast, made more difficult as this thing is relatively thin skeletal monocoque . For this reason alone and anyone who is experienced in investment casting will agree, without modern centrifuges and propane gas torches to keep everything up to temperature , these Roman jobbies are of the very highest standard skill wise and would have been manically expensive to make . This confirms that they are not a casual toy or random art object-- that they had a hugely important function- and without doubt the only organisation with the cash to get these made ,in numbers , was the State . AS a cipher tool with code wheels now lost, its function is so obvious . Why did it take so long to find out ? Are the Geevan's unique ??
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@jonviol - I've been really impressed by your extensive research in the subject of the Dodecahedron's manufacturing process ! I totally agree with your conclusion that they could have only been manufactured in quantities by the State. This is a great piece of work - Well Done !
@jonviol
2 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan Yes , not really extensive just recalling 7 years working in the Jewellery Quarter Birmingham mass producing gold and silver objects using investment casting techniques exactly the same as the technique which this almost 2000 y o dodecahedron demonstrates . Every aspect requires a full control of materials and understanding of how heat alters behaviour in manufacturing a final solid object and minimising failed pours- a total waste of all the effort . Making the waxes is so so difficult and historians never seem to grasp its preliminary expenditure of time and think only about the final cast cold finished result. If hundreds of these were produced, most likely as 130 have so far been found so far , we have proof of a large organised system working harmoniously in an intelligent practical environment . Sourcing clean copper, tin , zinc, fluxes, powdered calcium, charcoal and air pumps , waxes and thickeners , hand tools ,saws files etc ,is no different then than today . Scores of people, no phones, delivery vans, electric lights and so on . But we have electricity , silicon rubbers for mould making and high carbon steel for tool making . The deeper I examine this matter the greater is the conviction that we have here an example of State led mass production predating the industrial revolution by at least 1000 years and the how many different trades required to work together for a successful solution to a dedicated need . No art object this, no toy or coin sampler- hugely sophisticated in every possible way . .Jonathan
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@@jonviol Thanks Jonathan, this is a really useful insight into the whole manufacturing process - Thank you !
@alanplumbridge9097
3 ай бұрын
Brilliant! Well done, sir. Highly compelling.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Glad you liked it, Alan!
@rotax636nut5
2 ай бұрын
I've been wondering about these mysterious Roman dodecahedrons for some years since I first became aware of their existence and this explanation is such an elegant solution that is must be right, well done sir for sussing this out, as far as I'm concerned the mystery is now solved
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Your comments are much appreciated Rotax ! Thank you.
@PADARM
3 ай бұрын
Bravo 👏A extremely well thought out hypothesis. If this is not the true purpose of the Dodecahedron then it is a waste
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks @PADARM !
@Finding457
2 ай бұрын
You are a very clever man. I do hope you get the full credit and are recognised as the discoverer of the answer
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your reply.
@lynnwood7205
3 ай бұрын
Very Impressive presentation. I am persuaded that this was the use of these objects. Thank You.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thank you @lynwood7205
@jamesspry3294
3 ай бұрын
I watched Simon Whistler bang on for ages about how no one knows what these things were. And I believed him, until now! Well done sir, well done!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Much appreciated James !
@48ford8n
3 ай бұрын
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44 and here is the the evidence that supports that :- kzitem.info/news/bejne/tmeX052ig5iXlIo
@stevemorrell4066
3 ай бұрын
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks very much for your comments Steven.
@capsual2015
3 ай бұрын
Looks like some of them took their secrets to grave. Well done.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks ! @capsual2015
@P-B-G_YT
3 ай бұрын
You have the most compelling explanation to date. Everything makes sense, even where they've been found. Nobody knew what they were other than the living members of the Roman army who knew about their use. Once that person died, the Dodecahedron was considered as just a trinket, and buried with bodies, or lost, or tossed away accidentally. Since nobody else knew they had been used to encipher messages, the knowledge of their use disappeared. Thank you. You've earned a subscription.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your comments !
@timeandnourishment1961
3 ай бұрын
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later. Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer ! I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
@i0i
3 ай бұрын
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks @i0i
@TheRunereaper
2 ай бұрын
You've made a very compelling argument for your theory. I think you may turn out to be the colossus who broke the Roman "Enigma" machine. I love to see practical men humble the academic giants and I think you have joined the ranks of Wally Wallington, Jean-Pierre Houdin and John Harrison. This proposed solution can also offer many reasons as to why these dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes. Congratulations Mr. Geevan, I hope this changes your life for the better. Paul
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Your comments are much appreciated - many thanks !
@daviddunmore8415
3 ай бұрын
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
I'm not sure you're agreeing with most dictionaries as to the definition of the word "plausible".
@silvercloud-u5g
3 ай бұрын
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest. Cheers Matt
@jamiemorgan4146
Ай бұрын
In my mind, you have solved the mystery. Too many of your points are spot on. This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof. You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat ….. (Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence. Cheers Matt
@jaykay5580
3 ай бұрын
interesting notion and it would work but not convinced. to use them you would need a complete set of all of the dowels plus both disks for each face plus the dodecahedron on both ends, sender and receiver. the dodecahedrons that have been found come in various sizes and not too many have been recovered. you'd need a decent sized box to contain all of these items which if captured spoils everything. What military commander is going to drag that around with them? Seems that there would also be some historical documentation of them plus the fact that most people of this time period couldn't read at all let alone foreigners reading latin so not much need for codes although not completely unnecessary. If they used coded messages at all they more than likely would have just used scytales.Perhaps, though, they are part of this system.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for your reply jayka. To be a minimum user, you would only need the Dodecahedron, the Plaintext wheel and one code wheel. Other code wheels would be issued to users as the need dictated. Even if the box was the size of say a small microwave, there would be no problem transporting this along with the tents, carpets, furniture, beds and chairs used by the officer classes. Someone intent on accessing the code and trying to break it, would obviously have access to someone adept in reading Latin, I think. I understand that a scytale is a transposition cipher, where all the actual letters of the message are present on the belt and are limited to small messages, these were okay for the ancient Greek era. Cheers
@mikev4621
3 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan They found hundreds of preserved roman letters on thin sheets of wood at a fort dig.Ordinary soldiers could read and write latin
@dinaariel4983
3 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan The scytale rquired the same diameter stick to wrap the message around. I thought that's where you were going, that the holes would be the measure of the stick, but how would they tell which hole. I think maybe they only had a certain number of sticks, and just tried each one till a coherent message came up.
@wrayewenigmann3696
3 ай бұрын
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that! Best regards, and congratulations!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks for your comments !
@erniecamhan
3 ай бұрын
Absolutely marvellous, congratulations on your well researched, amazingly rationalised, astonishing realised discovery . .amazing...Absolutely fantastic. Congratulations
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks for your kind comments Ernie - I'm glad you enjoyed it ! Cheers Matt
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
Discovery? Did I miss something?
@ede2225
3 ай бұрын
Very convincing. Makes perfect sense. Congratulations on your discovery!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Ede
@deborahsacco186
3 ай бұрын
This is amazing information. Thank You for your brilliance !
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks for your kind comments, Deborah !
@The_Last_Poet_
3 ай бұрын
Congratulations! Great job! ❤ One of dodecahedrons is found in Serbia in 2006. If dating of these instruments are between 2. and 4. century it make sense that there was no need for them in central and eastern parts of empire, because these regions were extra safe. It was period of Illyrian emperors, military emperors and 18 of them were from now days Serbia territory, something like Prussia was for Germany much later, and for example, most of legions in empire were stationed in Balkans, 10 of them, mostly I think because it's central position. There is only one question, why Romans stopped using dodecahedrons, and what replaced it as decipher tool? Cuz soon after the end 4th and begining of 5th century western Roman Empire starts its declining and final fall.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for the information, which is very useful !
@nuclearmedicineman6270
3 ай бұрын
That's quite an interesting theory, sounds plausible.. although, it would require all of the dodecahedrons were identical, which they weren't. Admittedly, they might be area specific ciphers, not universal to the entire army, I'd like to see some measurements of ones found near each other.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply - yes I would like see some detailed measurements for comparison purposes , and I think you are correct with the idea that the Dodecahedrons were area specific. Cheers
@nuclearmedicineman6270
3 ай бұрын
@@frontenac5083 Not a native English speaker, are you?
@mikev4621
3 ай бұрын
And 'era' specific - technology may have advanced .That would explain why such valuable devices have been found abandoned in such numbers
@MikeCissna
3 ай бұрын
This really is the first explanation that makes sense thank you for sharing
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much, Mike !
@jppalm3944
2 ай бұрын
1) not mass produced. 2) not miltary , not enough made. 3) not all the same
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply - I don't think that they were mass produced, but in batches to serve the requirements. We don't know how many have been made, we only know how many have been found. The idea is that they are not all the same - only the ones within a communication group are the same.
@bobhope4949
29 күн бұрын
They did find quite a few of em and all over the place, but it would make sense if only certain people had them and different shape and size different codes?
@alandavies1725
12 күн бұрын
Interesting theory with at least one drawback. For your theory to work all recipients of coded messages would have to have identical sized dodecahedrons. From what I have read, no two of the found dodecahedrons are even closely matched in size or hole sizes. Have any metal casters tried to cast a dodecahedron? I have done a few small pieces of lost wax casting and would balk at trying to cast something so intricate.
@Matt.Geevan
12 күн бұрын
Thanks for your comment, Alan ! Yes - you are correct, the Dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes because, for example, one has been found from 159 AD and another on has been found from say, 259 AD. That is, the two have been found from different series that were made 100 years apart from each other, so we are getting two different 'snapshots' in the historical timeline Yes - metal casters have made dodecahedrons - kzitem.info/news/bejne/rKaKqnyPi6qcn3Y
@מוגוגוגו
3 ай бұрын
So you took 2 circles and rotated them 72 degress...Seems like you don't actually need the Dodecahedron . Where is the use of the device? The sealing part is just useles and the right wheel choice is weird too , much easier to pass a word password and rotate the word to agreed formula only you two know . So I do not see how this is beneficial.
@humfreee
3 ай бұрын
Good points. Also these dodecahedrons haven't been found throughout the Roman empire. Most notably they have never been found in Rome, which would be expected if they were used as hypothesised in this video.
@mikev4621
3 ай бұрын
The sealing process lets the receiver know which hole size to have facing downward when he sets up his dodeca
@mikev4621
3 ай бұрын
@@humfreee Maybe Rome was free of military action during those centuries
@מוגוגוגו
3 ай бұрын
@@humfreee There is also nice theory about it being like a "money counter seal," you would tie string around one side to count the decimal point acooring to number of loops and then put a seal on it, so you would have the exact amout of coins in the chest. But that seems to suffer of same falacy , no need for Dodecahedron with holes to achieve this. Same falcacy as in "finger ring measuring" device.
@מוגוגוגו
3 ай бұрын
@@mikev4621 still , you dont need the dodeca for that.
@cleverclogs2244
2 ай бұрын
Bravo! And this also explains the use of the icosahedrons: 20 sides, and 20 essential letters in the ancient Latin alphabet. They were a simpler way of quickly using a code, but it would be easier to crack. There were unbobbled ones with letters on the faces, and then there were bobbled ones with slightly dished faces (for holding wax, so that the letters could be inscribed onto the faces, and later obliterated by fire if you wanted to inscribe new combinations. The bobbles kept the icosahedron lifted proud of the waxed faces. I feel that the icosahedrons were the prototype that inspired your dodecahedron system. The dodecahedrons vary in size, so the bobbles are not equally spaced, but as long as the central face holes were made to standard or reciprocal, corresponding sizes, your system would still work. Perhaps the wheels had 5 slots rather than holes, to make the variance in dodecahedron sizes irrelevant. I hope and trust you understand what I am trying to suggest. 👍 p.s. You deserve an award for this!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Wow cleverclogs, that all sounds great ! Your link between the icosahedron and the dodecahedron is engaging, and the slot idea is ingenious! Perhaps I can make one and demonstrate it in my next video. Cheers Matt
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Thanks for your help cleverclogs - I think I have found some evidence:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@frenchfriar
3 ай бұрын
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly. While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility. To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness. It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes. This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
yes you are correct frenchfriar, I don't think any work has been done to measure and categorise all the dodecahedrons already found
@silvercloud-u5g
3 ай бұрын
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little. Thanks Matt
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Here is some evidence that I have discovered :- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@jimboAndersenReviews
2 ай бұрын
Seems absolutely spot on. I would be very surprised if any competing theory can look as convincing as this. I subscribed, this is one of the bigger eye openers I have seen in a long time.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
many thanks for your kind comments and subscription, Jimbo ! Best Regards Matt
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Hi Jimbo - I think that i have found some evidence to support this:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@TheHatersalad
3 ай бұрын
Very interesting theory that should be added to the "maybe" category. I do have a few questions. Why do many of the dods have 2-3 holes of the same size that correspond to 2 different sized holes? In some instances multiple matches 20-13, 20-17, 9-13 (made up numbers since im on my phone but you do see this pattern in the Dutch paper). Another puzzling aspect is the fact that on so many of them only 10/12 faces are decorated and the undecorated faces are opposite and the largest holes.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks @TheHatersalad I must admit I have struggled with considering this issue myself ! In this case, maybe every 'station' or 'user' had a code-wheel that fits both holes, and was used as a 'one time' code that could be used in an emergency to send an important message that could be deciphered by whichever 'station' or 'user' received it - but I agree it is puzzling ! Cheers
@MrMojoRisin71
3 ай бұрын
Yes - very good indeed. Of course the Hail Decimus offers a keystone to try and crack the code, but you could swap the disc for each day of the week - Disc 1 for Monday, 2 for Tuesday etc. A great version of a one time code pad. Well done!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks Mr Mojo !
@Виктор-ш4в3ц
2 ай бұрын
Incredible, no words to express my feelings, you are genius...❤
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Wow, thank you!
@danielmozumdar6224
3 ай бұрын
I think you have an amazing imagination and are intelligent. But I believe your unfortunately wrong. Because there have been other designed where this theory wouldn't work. And I believe there would be easier ways to do something similar.
@trimbaker1893
3 ай бұрын
the different size holes are for measuring dry spaghetti portions, the knobs are for testing doneness by wrapping the cooked pasta around the knobs. : ) long before slicing and dicing were part of the kitchen tool kit...
@trimbaker1893
3 ай бұрын
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w right?
@ChrisBlackwood-p2w
3 ай бұрын
@@trimbaker1893 Not a probable explanation I’ve heard before, it’s as good as all the hundreds of other suggested uses for such a device. Did the Romans eat Spaghetti?
@trimbaker1893
3 ай бұрын
@@ChrisBlackwood-p2w invented the stuff I reckon...
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
thanks - everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject. I don't think that the Romans invented pasta...... or pizza !
@timygonzalez8759
2 ай бұрын
Your first video? Wow. I can't wait for more videos. I love the way you explain things.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Welcome aboard!
@ElizabethMoon-n8m
2 ай бұрын
Makes sense. I used to play with transpotition and substitution cyphers as a child.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
many thanks !
@richarddeese1991
3 ай бұрын
I've no idea if you're right, but your theory has the merits of being simple, consistent, plausible, and fiendishly clever. Kudos, sir. tavi.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for your comments, Richard.
@SteepSix
3 ай бұрын
Great hypothesis! I had wondered if they might have been used as a communication device but such a use would require both the sender and receiver to have identical dodecahedra - and identical sets of discs. As these objects are being found in different sizes though, I have my doubts as to their use as an encryption device. Unless identical pairs are found then I'm afraid we need to keep thinking... One initial thought I had was to do with numbers. Calculation of base 12 maths for bean-counters perhaps. I kind of ancient calculator. Or even some kind of calendar device for accurately calculating certain religious events. I would also add that messages in Latin would have had very few double letters to worry about, if any, as certainly abbreviated Latin would have been used there. I do love this singular work you have put into decoding this mystery though! If these dodecahedra weren't used to encrypt messages, then you have definitely discovered such a potential use for them.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks Steepsix!
@johnsullivan3375
3 ай бұрын
Amazingly impressive reasoning
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks John !
@crowznest438
2 ай бұрын
With several components needed for this, have any components or pieces of (even if they are misidentified), other than the dodecahedron itself been found? Very interesting presentation.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks Crowz ! I admit that none have been found as of yet, but I am still in the process of investigation, so I will keep you all posted. Cheers Matt
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
here is the evidence:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@jamesrussell7760
3 ай бұрын
Ingenious! I have little doubt you have nailed it. There is no doubt that the Roman army had to have had a coding/decoding device. And I am sure that the Dodecahedrons having been discovered at Roman army installations gave you the first clue of their possible use. Congratulations!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much James for your reply. Yes - that was one of the clues, but not the first clue ! Cheers Matt
@brucedon-hm9ir
3 ай бұрын
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your kind comments , Bruce !
@Hadwyn
3 ай бұрын
Brilliant explanation, thank you
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Glad you liked it @Hadwyn !
@Paul-ou1rx
3 ай бұрын
The History Channel: It's a star map made by ancient aliens!
@fibodegjenn4411
3 ай бұрын
Superb, and have the ring of likelihood.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply @fibodegjenn4411
@momszycat4148
3 ай бұрын
Very clever! If this isn't the actual use it sure should have been because it's brilliant!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
thanks for your reply !
@T_Barb
2 ай бұрын
Wow! I’ll bet you’re right! Astounding!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your reply.
@fritzwilhelm8258
2 ай бұрын
What you're describing is highly reminiscent of the Enigma Machine used by the Germans in WWII. A fascinating theory. Is there any archeological evidence for the wooden letter holders and letter page forms? It's certainly a more fascinating theory than the "knitting knobby" theory I've heard about.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your comments, much appreciated, Fritz.
@PaulStringini
3 ай бұрын
So much for the "unsolved mystery" of the Roman Dodecahedron. Congratulations.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thank you Paul !
@PaulStringini
2 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan I dropped your name and solution over several videos on the subject. I noticed others doing the same. Looking forward to your solution receiving public recognition.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
@@PaulStringini this is much appreciated, Paul many thanks !
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Hi Paul here is evidence I have found:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@lrmunro
3 ай бұрын
This is an excellent theory and one which I’d be tempted to adopt wholeheartedly. The only fly in the ointment I can think of is the existence of a similar icosahedron with the little balls and circle patterns but no holes that could be used for the purpose you describe. It’s similar enough that it’s hard to believe it’s not related.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Thanks for your comments - my idea relies in the holes in each side to accept the different sized pegs of the code-wheels, so the icosahedron could not be used for this purpose.
@lrmunro
3 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan yeah. That’s what I was getting at. They’re similar enough that it’s hard to believe they’re not related and the icosahedron can’t be used for what you describe, which I think casts some doubt on your hypothesis. Otherwise I think it’s great.
@Former11BRAVO
3 ай бұрын
That's brilliant! Some serious brain power went into figuring out (let alone, developing) that solution to this mystery! Thank you!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for your comments.
@WC21UKProductionsLtd
3 ай бұрын
Absolute genius! A quick question, have any of the decoding wheels ever been found? I think there's another video here for you. How you worked this out! It really is an astonishing piece of work.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
many thanks ! I may take you up on that idea. No - I don't think any decoding wheels have been found as of yet.
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
I love your videos ! Here is the codewheel evidence that I have discovered:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@WC21UKProductionsLtd
Ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan oh thank you on both counts, Matt! I will check this out!
@TheAlchaemist
3 ай бұрын
Super interesting hypothesis. However it has its problems: - manufacturing would have implied critical dimensions - from the specimens found there is huge variability in hole and knob dimensions - overall sizes themselves vary a lot, recently a huge one was found which totally defeats the purported purpose. - not sure how the icosahedron specimen from Germany could fit - such an excellent and advanced encryption system would have hardly been lost, remember there is continuity of the state up until the XV century... or even up to today if you count the church. - too advanced for the era, military technologies tend to advance together with their counter technology, be it armour vs antiarmour , aircraft vs antiarcraft, comms vs comint, encryption vs cryptanalisis... and such a device would be secure well into WWI. - SUPER important, the dodecahedron (the only physical evidence) would be almost superfluous, just to represent the key, yet the bulkier and most size critical part. That implies too much speculation for too little evidence with a rather capricious connection between the two - no known wooden tablet with such characteristics exists despite thousands being found (admittedly not resistant to time and easily destructible) - two additional characters forced there when the Romans did not use space when writing nor even had a symbol for zero/nulla, it is really an extraneous concept. So, I really don't think it is plausible. Although it is a great attempt that I applaud. And it definitely could work in historical fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if your idea ends up embedded in a book or a movie some day!
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
Many thanks for your comments - very interesting points !
@dfcx1
3 ай бұрын
Very interesting points, particularly about a huge one being found. I had to look up how huge is huge - it's too huge to use as a wax seal for sure but not too huge to use as a cipher device. I can totally imagine a presbyopic person needing one in that size just to use it.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Could I please ask where you found the measurements ? Thanks Matt
@TheAlchaemist
2 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan In the Portable Antiquities Scheme db item 1144151 is the one found last year. 8.6cm 254g, I cannot paste the link in YT but you can search it. I understand that one it the biggest in the UK but might not be in Europe. The problem is finding authoritative data. I think I heard of one over 10cm but I cannot find where, at least without investing a ton of time digging...
@joanpasch4251
2 ай бұрын
Jul 8 I find your theory very convincing. The dodecahedrons can also be used to make jewelry or knitted gloves or to size lances but I'd bet that your proposal is its core and original purpose. Well done!
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Much appreciated, Joan !
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
Hi Joan - here is the evidence:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@douginorlando6260
3 ай бұрын
I would guess A Roman general would have contracted for many identical dodecahedrons to be made for use by all his outposts. Otherwise complications arise. Are any dodecahedrons found in different outposts identical? (If so,this is another piece of evidence confirming your theory).
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
That's great Doug - you've really grasped the concept. I'm afraid that we don't know for sure about the detail of the finds as no one has assembled all the data to conclude this.
@sectokia1909
3 ай бұрын
If this theory is correct, it raises more questions than I think it answers: Why 12 faces and 5 positions? Why make it out of metal? Why make a decahedron at all? You could simply have a wooden board with various pegs on it to achieve the same thing.
@Matt.Geevan
3 ай бұрын
As stated in the video, I think that the 12 faces offers an acceptably useful number of possible lines of communication via each coded wheel to other coding stations. The 5 positions gives the 'modulo 5' possibility to 'scramble' the code-wheel further, moving the code-wheel 1 position after every word, which means the code returns after every fifth word. This would make decipherment challenging, especially if the message length was kept short. The use of a cube, for example would only give 'modulo 4' and as icosahedron would only give 'modulo 3'. So this would improve the chances of a codebreaker if the message was long enough. It was made out of metal to withstand the immersion into hot molten wax.
@frontenac5083
3 ай бұрын
Yep!
@matthewglaysher6081
2 ай бұрын
Interesting, compelling theory! However, how do you acount for variables in the the sizes of dodecahedrons found? For instance the dodecahedrons at the Gallo-Roman Museum in Lyon, France are different sizes with different size spherical knobs on them than the example you have. This system would not work with so many different iterations being produced. Your indexing function (brilliant btw!) requires perfect alignment and would mean very little deviation in manufacturing/crafting tolerances of the dodecahedrons.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks very much for your reply - hopefully you will see in my next video a possible solution to the variability in sizes of dodecahehedrons that have been found. But you need to remember that not all dodecahedrons are the same. Just the ones within a communication group need to be the same. So 2, 12 or 22 identical dodecahedrons exist in one communications group for example. Imagine a communications channel operating on a single frequency. Not every group is on the same frequency.
@stevec7923
25 күн бұрын
Compelling demonstration! A couple of possible objections: 1. for this system to be used among a network of a Legion's forts, each fort would need a matching encryption set. I'm not sure any two dodecahedrons are found with matching hole diameters. 2. Why should all the holes be circular? It would be a bit quicker and easier if holes were, say, square, triangular, round, pentagonal, etc. 3. A set of flat plates would be much easier to manufacture than this challenging 3D structure.
@Matt.Geevan
24 күн бұрын
Many thanks for you reply,Steve ! I don't know if you have managed to watch my original video on the subject:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/13h6zaF7bJZhlKw You will see that for the system to work, the holes need to be round to allow the codewheel to keep in register with the plaintext wheel. Each Fort in a communication group would need matching Dodecahedrons as you so rightly pointed out, but not neccessarily a complete set of matching codewheels - only the codewheels that they were intended to possess by their Communication Group's Leader, whoever that was. For example, one Fort could possess the same codewheels as the three adjacent forts had, and the local cavalry groups to the east and west for example, but maybe not the cavalry group to the south, for example. The issue of the codewheels shaped the battlegroup's lines of communication, on a 'need to know' basis. As you will see from the original video, you will see that when the Dodecahedron is used to decode a message, the Dodecahedron is placed onto the Wax seal in the correct position, and its the OPPOSITE hole of the Dodecachedron that is used to proceed with the decoding process, so the 3 dimensional shapes geometry is a crucial part of the coding systems function. Cheers Matt
@stevec7923
24 күн бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan Yes, I see that circular holes do make sense now. I do think we should expect a bit more uniformity of hole dimensions. At a minimum, I'd expect pairs to be manufactured with matching hole size. But in use, pairs would be geographically separated, so perhaps not finding matching pairs would be expected. Regardless, brilliant thinking here!
@Matt.Geevan
24 күн бұрын
@@stevec7923 Thanks very much for your interest in my theory. Yes - matching pairs or sets of Dodecahedrons were made 'centrally' then distributed as required by the communication network.
@erikankerstjerne312
3 ай бұрын
It's an interesting theory, but it falls into the same trap as all the other theories I have seen. It can be done simpler and better without the dodecahedron. You can just have a plate with knobs on, the discs can be marked with numbers or symbols, which will make it far quicker to find the correct one (you fiddled with the dodecahedron for about 30 sec. to find the correct hole and another 10 with the discs, and that is with only three discs) you are also not limited to 12 discs, and without the peg the discs are esier to store.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks Erik - I wasn't fiddling with the dodecahedron as you suggest, but trying to show the decision process that an operator might go through whilst using the system. Cheers Matt
@neclark08
2 ай бұрын
Do you know, @@Matt.Geevan, how frequently / what %age of times such disks/wheels have been excavated along-side of / in the same archaeogical dig layer as a dodecahedron ?
@Matt.Geevan
Ай бұрын
here is some evidence:- kzitem.info/news/bejne/2G5tr2Gpi3mld44
@jonviol
2 ай бұрын
Any thoughts on why they are different sizes ? To work at least pairs must exist and all should be the same size to have a universal application.
@Matt.Geevan
2 ай бұрын
Thanks for your reply Jonviol. It was never meant to have a universal application. A pair would be the minimum as you suggest, but imagine only a pair of mobile phones that could only talk to one another and no one else. I believe that the dodecahedrons were made in batches of roughly about 12 or slightly more that could be distributed within a communications network or battle group or legion for example, and then the code wheels were distributed to the stations within that group as required.
@jonviol
2 ай бұрын
@@Matt.Geevan Yes, giving more thought brings up the technical difficulty in making this object and accurately repeating its manufacture. Investment casting using hard wax as a model is quite easy nowadays as we have silicon rubber to repeat the wax model simply. This did not exist in Roman times . Each new casting requires an exact replica , in hard wax, of the original to invest in moulding powder slurry complete with all the sprus vents and filler channels .WE use silicon rubber. Modern workshops use a centrifuge to spin out the hot wax before filling with molten metal (silver/gold/ brass/ bronze.copper / zinc etc) and spin again to ensure evacuation of air and clean filling of the mould. It is highly skilled and exaggerated when identical repeat items, such as this object , need to be made ,and especially difficult as silicon rubber did not exist then . To me this sort of proves that these were all made in one workshop and were very very expensive. The making of dozens of hard wax identical models ,all with thin walls and hollow and accurate to the master is no mean feat . Historians and others have all seemed to overlook this critical point as it points to them being made, and financed, by the state and not private person. Just on cost.The state would only spend so much money if the final object had a significant job to do and sufficiently difficult to replicate outside the original workshop by outsiders. In summary then this object is so sophisticated , in every aspect from how its was made and repeated accurately , to its obvious 'state' consignment with the best brains on the job in designing and mass reproduction that theories about it being a knitting tool or candlestick holder are just amateurish . A detailed video of the process to make a pair of these would make compelling viewing . There are investment casting companies in Birmingham associated with the Jewellery Quarter who would advise . Bet they would not like to try and make a matching pair without using silicon rubber to make the waxes. Do you know who has been making the resin replicas? would be interesting to find out they made them as some sort of mold would be needed. Jonathan
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