This episode was recorded on 15th March 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or check out his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-midseason-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
@Mateo-
5 ай бұрын
15th March February 2024???😭😭😭
@phizix5023
5 ай бұрын
Samito: Give us two tanks back!!!! AVRL: Delete tanks altogether
@SkippytWalrus
5 ай бұрын
I mean honestly
@TSGC16
5 ай бұрын
@@SkippytWalrus without tanks this game just becomes cod with abilities.
@vopcracker3193
5 ай бұрын
I love the tears of idiots that needed a year and a half for what Samito and others have been saying since fucking launch. Maybe we can actually play a sequel and not a glorified pre-alpha. PS: made another comment bc I came with solutions, not bitching.
@johnsonspark171
5 ай бұрын
@@TSGC16 that's all it is right now. Tank is just beefy DPS. Anybody who says otherwise is just lying to themselves and coping. 5v5 is dogshit
@TSGC16
5 ай бұрын
@@johnsonspark171 Yea i know 5v5 is doodoo
@joshuataylor5080
5 ай бұрын
The Hog main complaining that Rein can "kidnap" him and take him across the map is the HEIGHT of hypocrisy. Seriously? The guy who mains the character with HOOK is complaining about Rein charge because it "kidnaps" you? Get out of here.
@300ml_brasil
5 ай бұрын
honestly dk why svb invites him. once every 10 opinions he gets smth right
@Nutstache
5 ай бұрын
@300ml_brasil Love salt but he has some wild takes lol
@bigschiz0383
5 ай бұрын
@@300ml_brasilyou guys need to get a sense of humour
@300ml_brasil
5 ай бұрын
@@bigschiz0383 dont worry we are laughing at you
@felipemoraes9488
5 ай бұрын
Hook and his ult work as "kidnap", salt has some stupid takes
@GEOPAS1995
5 ай бұрын
Spilo's face during Salt's doomfist mental breakdown made my day
@malicious8767
5 ай бұрын
You can tell Salt has NO clue how or why the character works. And he doesn’t want to either
@inlandthempire.6932
5 ай бұрын
Dude is unironically cooked
@JonezBBQ
4 ай бұрын
time stamp?
@dwendolnelson61
5 ай бұрын
Tanks are least played in MMOs because they’re the least forgiving. DPS and Healer/Supports in MMOs can instantly see their value to a fight. Tanks can’t. The party just stays alive but if the tank dies everyone else does. Your reward is literally just completing the objective.
@xxgravityxx6545
5 ай бұрын
Damn what a great take.
@tieguyscollectibles9767
5 ай бұрын
but that's the story of a hero man that's what it is
@bambampewpew32
5 ай бұрын
That's why we need 2 of them!!!! Lmao
@P3bbIes
5 ай бұрын
thats why i hate when tank players complain, thats just what being a tank is in literally all role based game if you want dopamine and kills play a different role
@bambampewpew32
5 ай бұрын
@@P3bbIes bad take tanks were more enjoyable in ow1, it's possible so complaining is valid
@CuimeraEmariti
5 ай бұрын
This group was super fun! Great vibes. Very analytical, but UnsaltedSalt also bringing feeling into it. AVRL throwing some hot takes and Spilo felt like quality control. Really felt like everyone empowered each other. Good hosting SVB, ofcourse.
@runaway74
5 ай бұрын
Yeah, unsaltedsalt bringing feeling like a moron into it
@vopcracker3193
5 ай бұрын
Any podcast or conversation around this game that isn't around 6v6 at this rate is just padding for content. The game is on life support as long as 5v5 remains the primary format.
@sutg845
5 ай бұрын
@vopcracker3193 you're on copium for even entertaining that idea. It's not happening, get over it.
@justDreamerrr
5 ай бұрын
Exactly, agreed with a lot of takes in this episode.
@vopcracker3193
5 ай бұрын
@@sutg845 everyone passionate about this game is asking for it; Blizzard's already smelling the money they're burning with how they're changing the game. There is no reason other than 5v5 anymore why Tank should be balanced differently than other roles.
@GgSanity
5 ай бұрын
Salt is cooked bruh. The hog main complains abt rein “kidnapping people” bro was having a yap fest LOL
@majorcasualties9306
5 ай бұрын
yeah if rein taking you away is the main issue that just sounds like a skill issue/positional check. Almost all the tanks can ignore/stop it easy not including the supports who can help also lol. the complaints of a hog player hahaha
@malicious8767
5 ай бұрын
Bro’s just mad he can’t afk shoot Rein point blank without eventually getting charged smh
@jm0112
5 ай бұрын
Rein shouldn't have a movement speed penalty from shielding. Spilo biting his tongue while salt is throwing a tantrum about the worst tank in the game.
@josephreynolds2401
5 ай бұрын
It should be minimal, at most. Dedicating all your potential actions AND so much movement to hold shield isn't great for the player. Shatter isn't what it used to be and if it never becomes as impactful as it used to be then Rein needs his midfight buffed. Changes need to be made to and around his barrier, almost exclusively.
@akai_shuichi_x
5 ай бұрын
I agree. It's crazy that Rein has to choose between shielding and damaging unlike other tanks, but he isn't compensated for that by getting to his ideal position quicker or being more effective in his ideal range.
@Doomthepixarkid
5 ай бұрын
This is a great fix that I think wouldn’t do everything but would do a lot
@jm0112
5 ай бұрын
@@Doomthepixarkid Personally I think it would help make rein feel better specifically when he doesn't have a lucio.
@fettbub92
5 ай бұрын
Hog mains, amr
@rudyramirez125
5 ай бұрын
Love seeing Spilo on! 🙏🙏🙏
@zc8673
5 ай бұрын
Always
@endless_del
5 ай бұрын
hes the goat
@toons4934
5 ай бұрын
Definitely we’ll spoken. When he talks I listen the most.
@bobothebob4716
5 ай бұрын
Is he doing alright? He looks strung out.
@jeffstone7471
5 ай бұрын
spilo is who brings me to the podcast
@AnimeOtaku56.
5 ай бұрын
To justify the quick patch side I think 2-5 changes every 2 weeks is actually better for balance than changing half the roster every month. A wide set of changes makes it hard to spot outliers. If we did a few changes every couple of weeks we can deal with outliers faster and introduce less of them over time.
@mcqueen8737
5 ай бұрын
I completely disagree that they should aim to change the game every so often instead of just when needed though. I also think theres some value to just letting a patch marinate and letting players and especially pros come up with different ways to play characters and the game. The constant massive changes feels like it appeals to much to streamers and casuals who bounce between 5-6 'popular' games depending on whichever one got updated last.
@feedstacker
5 ай бұрын
Spilo W
@prestigini3150
5 ай бұрын
Bro a 4 hour podcast so perfect for work
@yesman2473
5 ай бұрын
Spilo nailed it thats literally the perfect change, just make tank passive resist debuffs, for example less damage on discord, less time on nade and sleep etc…
@vopcracker3193
5 ай бұрын
The thing that sucks is that even this wouldn't solve anything in 5v5, it would just make every Tank feel overpowered and make Sigma/Orisa/Mauga even more annoying to play against. 5v5 single handedly brings this game down. Let me be clear: _Everything in this game, including role passives and AVRL's Sledgehammer option (if it were implemented) would make more sense and have more impact within Overwatch in a 6v6 format. Hands down._ Anything else is just prolonging the death of Overwatch 2.
@akai_shuichi_x
5 ай бұрын
Reducing cc and not just knock back would be a lot more engaging as tank. When the opponent doesn't have any boops, it can feel like that part of the passive does nothing. I think the idea of this change is good, but it would also have to come with significant balance changes. Sig/Orisa/Mauga feel bad to play against since they either: 1. Have consistent sustain that makes them very hard to kill. 2. Are a stat-check; so in a 1v1 they'll mow/cc you down or get in your face and you can't do anything about it. Changing tanks like this so they aren't as oppressive, or have more windows of vulnerability could be good. The cc passive change would allow them to nerf such high sustain without tanks immediately dying to cc. It'd also make tanks that don't have cc mitigation like a shield feel better. Now would the dev team be able/willing to make such drastic changes? I don't know.
@yesman2473
5 ай бұрын
@@vopcracker3193 yeah but then they should be looking to nerf some of those tank sustain which is the mayor problem
@vopcracker3193
5 ай бұрын
@@yesman2473 exactly my point; You simply can't do that in a format where you're forced to balance one role differently than the others for no real reason other than que times.
@yesman2473
5 ай бұрын
@@vopcracker3193 yeah and I prefer 6v6 I don’t think the problem with the queue times was that nobody wanted to play tanks, we just didn’t want to play the boring double shield bunker and if you would do that you loose, so it would make it miserable to play tank, they just needed to balance, remove lamp nerf shields etc….
@x100bullets
5 ай бұрын
Main buff reaper needs is give that poor guy some quieter shoes, he’s the only flanker that is allowed zero surprise
@jeffstone7471
5 ай бұрын
this
@czekskii
5 ай бұрын
tanking requires you to take on a ton of extra responsibilities that other players have tools to solve, not the tank.
@hy3na739
5 ай бұрын
Yeah... You can never win as tank... Even if the solution is clearly a specific supp or dps pick you still get told to switch and flamed... Maybe if we all stop playing tank queue times will get so high dps and sup will complain and Blizzard might finally do something...
@sinistertoady6712
5 ай бұрын
i feel this. everytime I'm struggling for elims on tank, press h in spawn and I'm like damn wish i could play widow right now. At the very least this is because i'm not proficient with the tanks that have the best kill potential like hog and zarya. I generally prefer winston and rein.
@ZzsiegzZ
5 ай бұрын
This is true because anytime my tank is getting dominated it’s usually discord or nade so I go kiri and it solves everything
@czekskii
5 ай бұрын
@@ZzsiegzZ even DPS help the tank so much. DPS that are flanking, or taking good off angles relieve so much pressure on their tank.
@GetQuakedOn
5 ай бұрын
low skill floor play styles / heroes and low skill ceiling playstyle / heroes should not be viable in higher ranks. the higher you climb on overwatch the more skill output should be required. i always wished i never climbed into gm & top 500 because everyone just plays to win which means they are playing meta and usually that means playing the easy heroes instead of the hard ones. if you want to play a low skill floor / ceiling hero in the higher ranks you need to be absolutely insane with that hero. doing things that 99% of the playerbase is not doing. thats just not the case for overwatch sadly
@mcqueen8737
5 ай бұрын
Exactly. Hero's like mauga and moira should function like how weapons like the p90 and xm do in cs; things that let you stomp around in lower ranks but get quickly punished as soon as you enter the higher echelons of ranked.
@porcupinezebra648
5 ай бұрын
mauga was never trash, the fact they buffed him was crazy
@Oguh608
5 ай бұрын
Yup, he was playable before. The 100 instant hp buff is such a weird random buff to him.. They are always so scared to overbuff characters but then suddenly they are not...
@janvandenhooren9397
5 ай бұрын
@@Oguh608the buffed him to sell the new skin. It’s a business without competitive integrity. We don’t have to wonder why they did it. When. I was playing hog into Ana kiri in season 2 and my zen joined voice to say sorry bro I don’t have kiri unlocked on this account the game lost its competitive aspect to me. It’s just a circus at this point.
@forthe3136
5 ай бұрын
@@janvandenhooren9397I swear I think they buffed Moira at the start of the season because she was the mythic for the battlepass
@Nobrabra16
5 ай бұрын
@forthe3136 Yea they made her succ lock on easier. Maybe something else, i forgor :3
@umbralowl
5 ай бұрын
@@Nobrabra16 range, damage and range
@konradnemeth9789
5 ай бұрын
Having Unsalted and Spilo on is like having a monkey debate Albert Einstein. (jokes aside, I think Unsalted has some bad takes)
@ObeseWizard
5 ай бұрын
This was the best episode of the podcast yet. Please get these guys back again, I love the dynamic between them and their ideas. Good job SVB
@ObeseWizard
5 ай бұрын
Just to double down on my appreciation, I've always thought Rein was one of my favorite tanks in the game, both to play and to play against. But now I'm kinda second guessing myself from your points, he really is one dimensional. I'd love to see him be reworked for 5v5 better. I like the faster movement speed with shield deployed, that is a good idea. I also think a new ability for him could be super neat, i'm not sure what that would be though. I guess my first thought is maybe a hammer blast jump like the one in "Dauntless" ? Obviously less distance, it should only be like a couple meters, but just something to close a gap without needing to waste pin and make yourself super vulnerable. I've also thought before that Mauga and Rein's charges should be swapped, Rein should have the unstoppable one and Mauga should have the stoppable one. Maybe remove the ability to pin then, just increase the boop from getting hit by it.
@tehMothMan
5 ай бұрын
Every hero in Overwatch: Spilo: Ya just not a great design...
@Amy_399
5 ай бұрын
there's no way Salt just said Rein is for people with nerve damage
@Michael-pn4xu
5 ай бұрын
even a broken clock is right twice a day
@jacobsotorios8886
5 ай бұрын
you dont need to aim, you just hold shield
@Amy_399
5 ай бұрын
@@jacobsotorios8886 you dont play rein correctly.
@areallybigman8687
5 ай бұрын
@@jacobsotorios8886 Bro is bronze
@evanquintana4778
5 ай бұрын
When I got Overwatch, I played on a laptop touchpad with literally 5 frames per second. Mercy and Reinhardt were the only heroes I could play to any degree, and I ended up climbing from silver to Plat, eventually Diamond with a new PC. Rein may not ONLY be for people with nerve damage, but he has always been nerve damage inclusive.
@jayes13
5 ай бұрын
nightmare blunt rotation ngl
@konrah1486
5 ай бұрын
Spilo?!
@areallybigman8687
5 ай бұрын
nah Spilo is chill
@codysearchfield8258
5 ай бұрын
SVB, please do a “Great Mindset Debate”
@driftingbout297
5 ай бұрын
I love seeing awkward vs spilo
@Amy_399
5 ай бұрын
@@driftingbout297 real, we NEED that debate
@elhubro2386
5 ай бұрын
salt cries that doom can negate tracer bomb after stick, but hog can do this with breather too. doom has no weakness must be a big joke, every game 5 counters
@AngrySecs
5 ай бұрын
Unsalted is EXTREMELY bias I just generally ignore him. He says rein should be deleted from the game
@jonashansen8907
5 ай бұрын
@@AngrySecs Agree, Salt is not very well spoken and doesn't even know what he wants, he just talk a lot of BS. How he is relevant in the OW community is a mystery to me, he has the mentallity of a metal rank player. He adds no value to these podcasts.
@AngrySecs
5 ай бұрын
@jonashansen8907 my favorite comment from his last podcast was something along the lines of "Salt proves you can be incredibly good at overwatch while knowing nothing about it" and I feel that fits.
@D1G1TS420
5 ай бұрын
@@jonashansen8907while I kind of agree about him not being the best at communicating there is some merit to the metal rank perspective as the vast majority of players are in those ranks. I'm not sure it will ever be possible to cater to both high and low level play
@steel2572
5 ай бұрын
@@D1G1TS420 Hes top 500 though
@thedofflin
5 ай бұрын
I love when I agree with AVRL and UnsaltedSalt because it means we truly understand the problems with the game, since those two seem to think so differently about the game compared to most guests on the podcast. Unsalted really nailed it that if a team just wants to win they simply need to counter the enemy tank. It's sad to think about, but it's really that simple. The issues are if no one counters the tank, they usually dominate the lobby, 1 or sometime 2 counters seems to be balanced, but if there are 3 or more counters then it's just gg. I don't know what the devs can do about that except a pick-and-ban phase, which definitely won't happen in this game.
@LUCKIPUP
5 ай бұрын
they honestly need to just remove the ult swap completely and make it so you get like a 10-15% debuff on building ult charge, so your counter when you do swap, it better work without just being a annoying ult battery like someone swapping zen or kiri just to sit in the back and farm ult, theres been numerous times where my swap immediately has the value we need to stay in the teamfight and not die, and the only thing i have to worry about after swapping is building my ult as quick as possible to keep help making a difference, if people could swap but not become scared little ult batteries waiting to combo ult the other tank, things would be a lot different. Theyd have to actually not be scared and try to make a play on the swap without relying on the fact that they can hide and play corners just to build whatever counter ult
@thedofflin
5 ай бұрын
@@LUCKIPUPinteresting. Your first swap could be free but anything after that is a straight -80% penalty and can even go negative, e.g. your next ult might take 180% charge at worst, if you were at 50% your next ult would take 130% to charge. This would really discourage swapping, and would also encourage being the last person to swap, because if they want to keep going with the counterswapping nonsense they will take the massive penalty
@thedofflin
5 ай бұрын
I honestly hope they try a quick play hacked with no hero swapping allowed. Can still swap between rounds.
@LUCKIPUP
5 ай бұрын
@@thedofflin that might be hard
@LUCKIPUP
5 ай бұрын
@@thedofflin but yeah you built on my idea and made it even better tbh. ive seen people constantly swap and even swap back to something they were previously playing and eventually their team comp absolutely shits on me when i play tank. what you suggested is pretty dope because that would make it so those people wouldn’t even have a chance to build ult. ive been in matches where ive made multiple people on the enemy team at least swap 3+ times, that would make their ult debuff craz snd theyd end up building ult at like a 50% rate because they swapped and died without even building/using ult like 3+ times at least
@gnomad3143
5 ай бұрын
SPILOOOOOOOOOOOO
@Jager_2365
5 ай бұрын
Give Hanzo an arrow wheel. That u can select different types of arrows like; explosive, scartter, heat-seek, sonic arrow, ice arrow..... Obviously balance them out, and the wheel is on a cooldown. The you can lower the normal arrow to like 80dm or so....
@Bacchus325
5 ай бұрын
Saying Hanzo is broken now with a Mercy pocket because he can one shot is crazy because you know they'd be calling us scrubs for calling Hanzo broken before S9 when he could one shot literally all the time.
@Slinkywheel
5 ай бұрын
Spilo does not miss
@Bacchus325
5 ай бұрын
Some absolutely unhinged takes in this one my fuckin god.
@Primacon
5 ай бұрын
One of the most entertaining episodes ever. I was listening to it while doing chores around the house. How was this 4 hours????? Felt like an hour!
@hubertwinston7601
5 ай бұрын
hog main complaining about pin lmao
@waynetec13
5 ай бұрын
"It's only 2 seconds" It only takes one bullet to reset the passive. The tank is usually the largest target on the screen. It's not hard to hit a tank, even if you spray and pray. As an aside, hot take, we could have avoided a lot of this debate if they hadn't shut down OW1. I miss OW1. A lot. I played OW1 almost every single day for years. I've played less OW2 total than I played in season 1 of Overwatch 1.
@jamisonparker7504
5 ай бұрын
People always seem to forget. Daddy Jeff said when he announced 5v5 that he was going to remove the tank role and replace it with a role call "Brawler" I always felt like this was a key part of what made 5v5 work in his mind. We all know the story... Jeff left and he took his "Brawler" concept with him. And he must have really took it, because no one has ever talked about it since.
@LicensedContractor
5 ай бұрын
Spilo with the BO3 dead opps Cosmic Silverback. Respect.
@staroxi
5 ай бұрын
I love these long form podcasts, keep them coming boys, you’re making great thought provoking content.
@spacecowboy7193
5 ай бұрын
I always have 1,000 thoughts I wish I could express when I watch these, but I just want to say Moira fade on a 6 second cooldown is insane. Every Moira main would drop a tier and a half if they had to play any other support.
@spacecowboy7193
5 ай бұрын
It’s horrible that Moira is more viable than Ana above gold, much less in GM and OWCS.
@JANjeweetzali
5 ай бұрын
Moira is OP because this is her mythic skin season. They will nerf her next season. Keeping the servers up costs money you know
@blueoystercult124
5 ай бұрын
@spacecowboy7193 Well spoken, king
@darkphoenixempire6520
5 ай бұрын
what is salt 'smoking'. rein pin on ram is not that good. rams hitbox is so bad that you maybe pin him 1 out of 4 times
@toons4934
5 ай бұрын
Is this why I struggle pinning ram !?!??? Every time I’m like why the fuck didn’t I get him
@NSeaBear
5 ай бұрын
I think the automatic value supports can have is crippling in lower ranks. Mercy beam, Lucio AOE, weaver lock on, brig pack and aoe, illari pillar, zen orb. Most damage players require at least some input to have value. Yes, there are torb and sym turret. But most require a shot to hit or an ability to hit.
@drewlocke9099
5 ай бұрын
This is so true. Low ranks get shit on but the truth is, we aren't as good and need that extra help
@Zyborgg
5 ай бұрын
If they made a glasscanon mauga he'd need some mobility and sustain in otherways. I've always thought, what if he could shoot while doing his overrun. So you could essentially do a mauga drive-by and get kills. Just running past enemies and shooting at them. That would be so fun.
@fabianlindstrom9519
5 ай бұрын
You remove mercy from the game and make torb throw you 5 seconds damage boost packs and 5 second mercy beem healing packs, but on 7 + seconds cooldown so you really have to be smart with it and wait for you flankers to engage or your sojourn to ult etc, while you are protecting the back line with short range damage and not a spam that kills faster than hanzo
@scarecr0w630
5 ай бұрын
SVB mentioned doom being the tank that cycles cooldowns, but I'd argue orisa and ram as well. I love ram this season with the 7 second cooldown. Shield and Vortex, shoot behind the shield, Shield drops wait half a second, nemesis form, nemesis drops and Shield is available. Orisa is similar but I think she's boring to play lol.
@runaway74
5 ай бұрын
I feel like Sigma also fits the bill
@Sizzyl
5 ай бұрын
That take on spy around 2:50 was insane, watching a good spy go to work is sick.
@polar6066
5 ай бұрын
2:58:39 regarding to what spilo said about tp, im pretty sure they buffed it that way because it takes much longer to kill targets now that she cant two shot, so tp stays around longer. maybe they just want to test how she plays with bad orbs and bad hp but higher stats on everything else
@endless_del
5 ай бұрын
ITS BEEN SO LONG I MISSED YOU GROUP UP PODCAST
@LeadLeft
5 ай бұрын
I like Avril's idea about bringing the tanks more in-line with the rest of the cast. As for Burst damage / burst healing goes, I'd like to see them experiment with more damage over time / healing over time effects to mitigate how "bursty" things feel.
@Iron-Blurr
5 ай бұрын
I do like the reversal, consolation, uphill battle etc. But they should show how much extra was gained or lost. Lets say your match win was gonna give a flat +10 units of rank/ SR, it should say +3 for uphill battle so people really see how much extra they got. Basically it should look like this: Win: +20 Uphill battle: +5 Win streak: +2 Total: 27
@umbralowl
5 ай бұрын
Also when you win a match that you where expected to win it shouldn't be red so players don't think it's bad it should be yellow instead imo, not bad but not good either
@scarecr0w630
5 ай бұрын
Alot of players will see the words consolation, uphill battle etc and not even know what those mean. I don't know half of them and I play in masters lobbies all thr time.
@WhereIsYourID
5 ай бұрын
My question is, why is winrate the defacto indication that a hero needs adjustment. I get why its considered, and I could be off base on this but it seems like Devs just look at a winrate being too low for a hero and say oh the hero needs to be buffed! or vice versa. Maybe just adjust for balance and prioritize skill expression instead of trying to aimlessly cycle thru metas for shits & giggles?
@toxic_icecream
5 ай бұрын
2:57:14 AVRL said he is okay with 2 shots if they are hard to hit, thats a problem with current sym, you can miss an entire non tank hitbox to hit someone. So if they would decide to change it back to 2 shot, hitbox decrease is a must
@johnperez1723
5 ай бұрын
I've mained and have been a consistent high elo grandmaster hanzo player all the way back since the early seasons of overwatch one. I have a lot to say about him and not much space unfortunately. 😅 Addressing what they discussed in the podcast of his restrictive bow fire and that Spilo mentions increasing his rate of fire to adjust for the lost one shot. To put it bluntly there already exists a high rate of fire projectile dps in Soujorn. Hanzo has a slower more methodical play style that's incredibly satisfying when performed well that's never been replicated to the same extent for a player like myself. He's a brawl hero with fair sniper capabilities which while not touching widomaker is still lethal. The loss of his one shot has from my point of view destroyed a core aspect of the character that while understandably frustrating when it's a log through choke finding a mark is also a high form of skill expression unique to him as no other projectile dps to the same degree blends a mixture of tracking and prediction with each shot. I won't deny for a moment my bias to simply revert the changes and return to the prior state of Hanzo but if we're moving forward in a world where he simply can't one shot without outside assistance I hope we can agree to respect the core of the hero and not simply say fuck that guy and keep him in the trash. If I were to offer my own imput on how to change him I'd suggest making him an odd mixture of utility burst akin to his sonic arrow. Adding effects to all his arrows rather than simply being high damage in quick succession like storm arrow. Ultimately I just want him to feel like a fun independent character who's healthier for the game as a whole that can pop off every once in a while. I appreciate those who read this and if anyone replies I'll be happy to discuss.
@OO-il6sl
4 ай бұрын
I hit every shot on Hanzo, 30-40% headshot acc nd lose games in plat..
@avadanocum6495
5 ай бұрын
I love how when supports felt bad, devs and creators were like: "ahhh my sweet litle child we will help u, here take best hitboxes, hurtboxes, healing, damage and mobility tools" Absolutely noone plays tank bc its shit as f- "skill issue", sorry didnt know that having an absolute uselss dps after 12 win streak is my fault i will try better. "Just play sigma" who is the most boring tank in the game, its venture but with shield and no mobility. Also it feels very fun with ow2 matchmaking to play tank, on dps u can actually carry a game solo or with 1 good teammate, but on tanks- no fuck u. U wll get mei/simm/reaper/bastion+ zen/orisa and now u can go f urself. AND toxicity is unbelievable :my last game on tank ever was zarya with zen on my team who was constantly dove by winton, i gave him 2 bubbles, but it wasnt enough since our moira thought she is dps now.AND U KNOW WHO WAS TO BLAME?!- RIGHT ME: "U have to counter winton" ok, i play mauga - kill their winton+ both dps +1 support. Next fight - orisa mei ana- i die and of course its on me So now i play only dps, bc even if u loose u at least get to play the game. Those idiots with high ranks have dps that actually apply pressure and dont just stand there behind u all game, thats why they wont ever understand why noone plays this shitty role anymore. Also counterpicking tanks doesnt require any skill, ana/zen/sombra/echo/pharaph/reaper/bastion/torb make ur life miserable but take 0 iq and skill to shut u down in a " competetive game"
@JANjeweetzali
5 ай бұрын
haha nice rant. you should learn doomfist to get through the ranks you are describing quickly.
@Bluemansonic
5 ай бұрын
3:50:50 no NO NOOOOO, KEEP THE -15%!!!!! In Silver-Plat it was impossible to get anything done as Tank or Support cuz nobody uses cover, ESPECIALLY ON CONSOLE LOW RANKS
@marmar162162
5 ай бұрын
I feel like if they just adjusted sombra where she periodically reveals her in-stealth character model every 3-4 seconds or so while invis it would be balanced and would address the issues regarding her perma stealth. Kinda like sadako in dbd when she’s phasing. Or even add some footsteps or a voice line like mischief and magic every few seconds. Idk I just feel like that would add counter play to her stealth that’s fairly simple to implement.
@slomow
5 ай бұрын
AVRL is only slightly right. Some characters could fit a homogenized tank/dps role but tanks like rein and Winston would simply be blown up even faster and would become unplayable. If the game was balanced around rein being meta, we could make other tanks playable but not op against rein. If that were possible, the game would feel fun
@TrueNyxis
5 ай бұрын
Ideas for doom: - keep his slam and punch the same, minus the charge aspect. -replace the block with a shield ability that creates either a forward facing shield or a 360 degree bubble shield for 2-3 seconds that deflects damage like genjis deflect. Ideas for Mauga: -change his cardiac overdrive to an abily that changes his vision and weapons to "mental overdrive" where for 1-2 seconds his hud and weapons autolock on incoming projectiles and he can shoot them down.
@jonahp1127
5 ай бұрын
The overwatch community loves change…”but not like that, they should’ve done this”
@DriplessShrimp
5 ай бұрын
I mean we asked for change but then they just do random stuff no one asked for. They should have reworked discord and blue beam years ago. Then they could have balanced damage and healing numbers without breakpoint degen garbage.
@silentdc404
5 ай бұрын
Blizzards philosophy for tanks is good for everyone except the tanks. Basically just a sacrifice so the other 2 roles can have fun. Why are they “scaling” people’s damage and healing? Wasn’t the whole point of the health changes to address too much damage and healing? Idk I see no reason to play this game anymore and the devs don’t seem to want to change their philosophy with tanks
@Dezatron-
5 ай бұрын
If we want a rework torb, then make him either all passive or more aggressive. Passive as in make him about building with turrets and maybe destroyable barriers. While taking away his shotgun or just nerfing it. The aggressive path way is nerfing his overdrive by taking away the faster fire rate and keeping everything else because he's very good if people know how to play right.
@OO-il6sl
4 ай бұрын
Huh ur other option is.just a huge nerf
@Dezatron-
4 ай бұрын
@OO-il6sl yeah, I don't think they will attempt that after seeing venture. But I stand by my nerf for the rate of fire during overdrive.
@jonahp1127
5 ай бұрын
On AVRL’s point, what if tanks in this game were more like Gibraltar or Newcastle from Apex Legends? Apex does the “tank” role far better than overwatch. Only slightly more damage resistance and similar hitbox sizes as the rest of the cast. And they still have strong damage mitigation abilities that don’t feel oppressive. It would be interesting, but every tank would have to be reworked beyond all recognition.
@Iron-Blurr
5 ай бұрын
I'll stay it over and over until people listen. We didn't have tank players in 6v6 because we had BORING TANKS and the game was abandoned. We now have FUN TANKS like Ram, doom, JQ and even new orisa is more fun with the javelin. No one wants to play old orisa or sig constantly. You can't blame people not playing tank on the format when you're ignoring the fact that tanks were just designed to be boring. Fix the design to make tank fun and people will play as tank.
@galev3955
5 ай бұрын
The thing is, in these debate people are high elo and the queue times there are (from what I hear) indicative of no one playing tank. However in lover ranks queue times are usually
@Iron-Blurr
5 ай бұрын
@@galev3955 so high elo players don't like to play fun tanks? Cloudy plays rein no matter the meta. Cyx plays hog no matter what. Doom players play doom no matter how bad he is in the meta or what a buggy mess he is. People will play what they find fun regardless of the meta. So all designing fun tanks would do is bring more players to potentially enjoy the role. So high elo has nothing to do with people not playing tank or being able to find games. The biggest factors are player population, incentives to play tank, "fun factor" with tank design and the meta being balanced enough to not push tank players to quit the game. The brief super op mauga only meta pushed many tank players to stop playing the game for a while since their favorite tanks (the fun ones) were unplayable and you had to play mauga or counter mauga which is boring.
@alexanderhayes9393
5 ай бұрын
People didn’t like tanking in OW but they also didn’t have tanks like JQ or Doom. Which are far more fun than playing shield bot
@kenerb654
5 ай бұрын
True but in OW1 Brig had shield bash stun on cooldown, Ana’s dart kept you asleep for longer, Discord was chain casted on you, etc etc. So many changes have been made since OW2 to accommodate for the tank - these same changes would have to be in OW1 or else it would feel just as shit to tank, Rams and JQs would be eaten alive by a Cass stun/Sombra hack/Ana sleep/Brig Stun combo
@natedavis2944
5 ай бұрын
Spilo the rein defender. My goat 🐐
@4589dude
5 ай бұрын
If we're at the point where we have to consider homogenizing the tank role then that by itself says a lot about how fundamentally bad 5v5 is for this game
@konrah1486
5 ай бұрын
“If we” That was literally just AVRL, nobody else
@davidnewhart2533
5 ай бұрын
@@konrah1486 Wrong. 5v5 encourages homogenization of tanks. There's no debating against it. Sigma was the only tank that actually took the transition from 6v6 to 5v5 well. That's mainly because Sigma is what you would call a generalist.
@konrah1486
5 ай бұрын
@@davidnewhart2533 Not wrong at all, none of anything you just said changed the fact that AVRL was the only one who said that
@Nick-ki9hh
5 ай бұрын
Salt’s Rein take is so bad that it makes me question every take from here on out by him.
@Georgian502
5 ай бұрын
Salt's take on Doom players being like Mercy players is so valid. That hero has been so fucking broken for like 7 seasons straight, and Doom players still argue that he's bad so he keeps getting buffs.
@AnimeOtaku56.
5 ай бұрын
It’s true but it’s coming from a hog player and they’re the same.
@Anton_Jermakoŭ
5 ай бұрын
you dont understand it until you tried playing doom the complaint is not that he is weak, but that he feels like shit to play because you have to be near perfect and consistently near perfect on a hero that is by nature of his coding inconsistent aaaand every other tank gets the same output for a lot less effort and if the enemy wants to ruin your day doomfist has so many heroes that make playing him feel like shit try it you will suddenly understand why doom players are so up in arms at every 'doom is good you just have to be good at doom?" you never ever thought how much better than you a doom player has to be to become 'broken', did you?
@bambampewpew32
5 ай бұрын
Bro this guy has to be either top 20 or bronze 5 to be saying doom is "so fucking broken" lmao
@bambampewpew32
5 ай бұрын
@@Anton_Jermakoŭ yeah well said man lmao
@bambampewpew32
5 ай бұрын
Also doom is flat out not broken, he's still countered by every cc in the game lmao
@theshard5697
5 ай бұрын
AVRL is so real for this. Open queue, max 2 characters per role, Open queue HP pools for tanks. PLEASE.
@ytk3797
5 ай бұрын
I’d love to see Super invited to this podcast he always seems to be left out of the ow community for some reason even tho his one of the nicest and popular creators
@runaway74
5 ай бұрын
Agree omg, thought I was the only one who noticed
@TSGC16
5 ай бұрын
He's not really left out he just chooses to focus on streaming and not on the OW community itself
@Real_MisterSir
5 ай бұрын
6v6 Tanks have less hp (350min 450max) Every other role gets scaled back to 200-ish hp Tanks are primary cc and mitigation role through abilities, rather than damage sponge role through health pool. Health pool used to sustain crit damage and high-burst abilities - rather than being a bunker for sustain and outliving endless damage with support behind. Support are primary utility role (aka amplification role) Damage are enabling role that utilizes tank space and amplifiers to get value from openings, and prevent enemies from creating openings themselves Remove all immortality and heavy sustain abilities Lower both damage and healing Role passives are gone, individual hero passives introduced where needed Cooldown normalization around 6-8 seconds on average (certain outliers may exist below 6 seconds. None should exist above 10 seconds). Ability debufs should never be as strong- or stronger than ultimate debufs
@jarmaljean-charles2850
5 ай бұрын
they’re never adding 6v6, that would delete the purpose of making ow2
@Real_MisterSir
5 ай бұрын
@@jarmaljean-charles2850 nothing rules out anything. More controversial stuff has been done before
@jarmaljean-charles2850
5 ай бұрын
@@Real_MisterSir yes but this would be outright stupid , the selling point of ow2 was that 6v6 was no longer a thing . adding it back into the game would make the notion of making a second game redundant . i get your sentiment and i get what you mean, but it just lacks the logical sense behind it to ever be put into play . the ow community is the MOST resistant and critical of change anyways and you can’t satisfy everyone, you’d end up getting a group of people saying to bring back 5v5 and the cycle continues . not to mention that even if they were to bring it back as a second mode, there’d still be discourse and even more disparity in the player base as 6v6 players would more than likely become toxic towards the 5v5 players or vice versa . in an already toxic environment, bringing in 6v6 to a player base whom is already basically never satisfied is not ideal . they NEED to adjust the tank role, that’s literally it . tank has very clearly fallen to the wayside in favor of larger patches and changes for dps/support who don’t need anymore buffs, especially when the tanks don’t become anymore durable or tankier or let alone get any meaningful changewhile everyone else has their abilities and numbers buffed . the tanks still become the target for all the NOT GOOD things to hit them while not having their health and ability to play the game adjusted in turn .
@richieg1306
5 ай бұрын
4 hour Group up podcast and a 1 hour 20 min Kanye interview damn im eating good tonight
@trueflood323
5 ай бұрын
Thanks for that Kanye plug. Gonna check it out
@zendakk
5 ай бұрын
@@trueflood323Is he marketing his own line of designer tin foil hats yet?
@lukasg4807
5 ай бұрын
Where's the interview at?
@Gimnbo
5 ай бұрын
"Supports can't just be a healbot, and tanks can't just sit out in the open soaking damage." The majority of the Overwatch community are healbots who will flame the tank for not sitting out in the open soaking damage.
@just_a_joke1
5 ай бұрын
Oh 100%. It's fun though to leave the frontline a couple times in a row to test their positioning and decide whether we even have a chance of winning.
@k00laidman0025
5 ай бұрын
This made me imagine a world where hero lock was a thing and team builds are more about covering team weaknesses, over maxing out a specific playstyle/comp live dive or poke
@TechnoTrex1089
5 ай бұрын
Whenever Salt speaks 😂
@Lucuman91
5 ай бұрын
Unsalted loves to say ''idk man'', an expression to fill the space while talking that most people use. The thing is that with him it's literal, he actually DOESN'T KNOW.
@BaconBriber
5 ай бұрын
1., I think that this has been the best group on the podcast in a very long time. The discussions were so civil, everyone was listening and respecting each other, and no one was talking for too long. 2., I think that increasing tank hp while giving them a slight resistance to the dps passive reduction and time would make them have a similar interaction that they currently have where they will die, but it will just be longer that they stay in. The goal of the season 9 patch was to make sure that things can die. Not right away, but over consistent fire things die. That should remain the case for tanks because the dps passive makes that a thing, but just giving them more health so that they exist in the fights for a bit longer.
@InsOmnicBox
5 ай бұрын
No one wanted to play 6v6 tank, so they move to 5v5. Now people want to play tank EVEN LESS, so this clearly wasn't the solution.
@TruGmER17
5 ай бұрын
My idea for a Rein re work is to lean into his MMO Paladin fantasy. Maybe when he holds shield he gives his team a damage reduction aura or he could provide a short term buff to one of his team mates. Lean into the Brig support/tank idea and make Rein a tank/support
@guitarzero123
5 ай бұрын
I am all for buffing the tank passive. Let's make ALL duration effects last a shorter time vs tanks. Burning, Hindered, Stunned, Anti, DPS passive, Trapped, Slowed. All of them.
@josewolf9884
5 ай бұрын
I like the analogy of "Tanks are playing dark souls" but I'd also add "Dps are playing Rhythm Heaven" and "Supports are playing animal crossing"
@galev3955
5 ай бұрын
Say you never played support, without saying you never played support.
@departure696
5 ай бұрын
3:48:00 I have had so many games lost because of the overtime music getting my teammates stressed so that fight to touch point and die just to realize that we still have 10 seconds but now no one can touch for overtime
@vordoen
5 ай бұрын
My thoughts have always been reduce hurtbox size of tanks, lower their HP, add an additional tank, make shields less effective. then we get what we want.
@Joe_Payne
5 ай бұрын
UnsaltedSalt " the only fun things about rein are his abilities 1, 2 and 3." well that sounds like a fun hero to me only primary and secondary fire not fun. not like healing on hog or hog primary fire is fun so he only has 2 fun things...
@hy3na739
5 ай бұрын
They could make it so tanks get a damage reduction so long as their entire team is alive and not in spawn... Making it so you have to first kill a squishy on the other team before focusing the tank, except if they are super far out of position of course...
@ChimpRevolution
5 ай бұрын
Please get quaked and salt on at the same time id love to see the chaos unfold 😂
@luiegiii
3 ай бұрын
Since removing the richochet arrow Hanzo became much leas interesting. They should have gone further with the radar arrow concept by giving him things like an explosive arrow, shrapnel arrow, sticky arrow, and/or a poison/bleed arrow. Hanzo has so much potential to be more interesting. Considering he is a ninja-type character it would make sense for him to be more like Hawkeye with a variety of different arrow types. His current iteration is not interesting and much more reliant on aim which is harder to make use of at all levels imo. Scatter-arrow did take some strategy in how you use it and gave him some type of get-off-me potential. He doesn’t really have that now.
@GetOffGenji
5 ай бұрын
Really agree with their takes on Brig. Samito hates on her, but it really is unjustified in her current state. She has no Immo abilities, no crazy ranged hitscan damage, and no get out of jail free cards. Yes she is strong in the right hands but not oppressive. She takes A LOT of game knowledge as well - easily one of the highest of any heroes in the game. Bad players simply cannot get value out of this hero which is a very good thing. Also, her bust damage combo requires her to use all of her abilities INCLUDING her escape ability! Very great trade offs in her kit that players get to choose between depending on the situation. As for the buffs, I’m not totally sold. I don’t think she needed anything to be honest. This repair pack buff is HUGE. If they really wanted to buff her, the best thing to do would have been reduce shield bash CD by 1 second. It would let her be even more mobile and flexible. Buffing repair packs allows her to sustain her team without inspire being active. Usually it’s a general rule among brig players that if you miss 2 whipshots, you lose the fight for your team. This repair pack buff seems like it will make it so that you can now miss 2 whipshots and be fine. At least the dps passive will probably keep it in line. Overall, brig is an awesome hero. Fantastic design in my opinion.
@Tk421WTF
5 ай бұрын
One of the big issues I see for Tank is that until you're very experienced, it's really hard to understand what you should actually be doing. The game doesn't teach you what tanking means and it's hard to intuit when your character's strengths and weaknesses actually apply. Way too many frontlining DVa/Winton players out there thinking their defensive ability is meant to hold up to that, or Rein/Mauga/Doom players just suicide charging into the backline cause hey, the game gives them a button to do that. And when the rest of the team is stuck with a tank like that it's such a huge impact compared to any other player on the team. Once you know what you're doing it's a unique and challenging and rewarding thing to do but climbing that skill floor is like trying to fall up a ladder.
@sawtuthe9670
5 ай бұрын
I think would be cool if tanks were treated more like supports without heals OR dps with a little higher health. So you can have tanks play more of a Paladin type role where their tanking is still enabling other teammates like the supports, or by demanding space. Almost like rein and zarya being the yin and yang to it if Zarya was better at bubbling teammates than herself.
@Froobachino
5 ай бұрын
People's issue with the current ranked system is it's failure to articulate what is actually happening. It's a half measure, it tells you something but not what that something is or how it impacted you or why. If there was a breakdown column in the side it could have the function of what they actually promoted this rework to have... Transparency... Example: Win +5% Performance +2% 15% favoured to win (-1%) Total match summary: +6%
@Andreas-pt8le
5 ай бұрын
Healing amounts havn't really changed since moira launched. Damage resistance and immortality/invulnerability is the reson that made healing overtuned.
@jezetor
5 ай бұрын
A great group for another great episode. Thank you!
@TractorProductions
5 ай бұрын
Fixing hog is easy. Rework pigpen into a circular shield that does damage, allow breather to be stunnable, bring back the old gun, boom now he plays more similarly to ramattra
@TrueNyxis
5 ай бұрын
Support feels terrible this season. Also, you realize the less healing supports do, the more we have to heal bot to keep up. Before, we could focus on flanking etc. Before we had to come back and heal our team. Now we cant really do that because if were not healbotting from the start, our team falls over.
@fareedjaved5986
5 ай бұрын
Really enjoyed the thoughts on healing & supports. Would enjoy seeing SVB & AVRL talking more about potential changes inspired by Dota 2.
@Kamorzy
5 ай бұрын
Doomfist never needed help. He's been a top tier tank for multiple seasons, really high pick rate and win rate at all tiers of play. Idk why the balance team loves Doomfist so much, they're constantly overbuffing him despite him probably being the uncontested most unhealthy tank for the game. Also, people just need to accept that if a hero is extremely good in metal tiers all the way to T500, they do not take high skill or high effort. That hero is just plain broken, and they're just coping for their skill issues. Also, not sure what AVRL is talking about with heals per s being the "defining factor that makes a support good". Lucio and Zen have always been top tier supports through nearly all metas BECAUSE they don't waste power budget in healing. Supports never needed XX healing to be viable, it generally makes them less viable the more heal-focused they are. Moira has always been the highest heal support and she usually isn't good bc she lacks utility. If a high healing support is meta, its usually bc of their utility/damage, not the healing anyways (before S9 at least). But the support role has absolutely gotten more heal-focused in S9. Sure, the strongest strategy is to abandon healing for higher damage with Zen/Lucio, but that's BECAUSE the demand for healing is so absurd. Moira got a huge viability boost bc if you don't play a blitz team comp to kill before your team needs healing, she's your best chance to keep up with heals. When healing is nerfed, it forces most supports to spend more time healing - making the game more heal focused on most supports. S9 particularly hurts supports who had diverse kits, a little heal, utility, and/or damage, S9 is all about either no heals for max damage (best), or max heals to keep up with damage.
@alexaugusta6991
5 ай бұрын
What is this discussion on Reinhardt??? Are you guys seriously missing the appeal of a MAIN TANK being able to protect a whole team??? Nobody personifies the essence of tank the same way Reinhardt does. He only doesn’t work in 5v5 because 5v5 is a game that’s not for tanks it’s for the other 4 people on the team. Rein is one of the coolest characters put in an fps period.
@alexaugusta6991
5 ай бұрын
Rein isn’t satisfying to play because the format sucks for people who loved outplaying enemy tanks. Blocking shatters, swinging and fire striking into gravs, having a game changing pin, joining comms and having the whole team group around you, getting nanoed and then building two ults in one minute. THATS WHAT PEOPLE LOVED ABOUT REIN AND PLAYING TANK AND THEY GOT RID OF ALLLLLL OF THOSE THINGS!!!
@beausis
5 ай бұрын
Quick Play hacked should introduce a "hardcore" no swap mode. Although this would be better for ranked mode. Then it would be like a fighting game. Blind picks for the first game and then the loser gets to counter pick by choosing their character after the winner
@galev3955
5 ай бұрын
Re: Symm teleport health buff. I don't know how no one understands this. All damage got buffed. This change is most probably there to bring the teleporter time-to-kill back to where it was before.
@laughingnotlooking
5 ай бұрын
Avrl is so disconnected from the game, he claims role queue was introduced because there weren't enough tank mains. Literally Goats forced the devs to give us role queue. We'd been asking for years before Goats became the meta.
@erichowell1050
5 ай бұрын
On the sombra discussion. She has way too many tools. If I’m playing dps and other team has a sombra or swaps to sombra I feel like depending on what I was playing it’s a forced swap. Not to counter the sombra but to have a chance of potentially trading with her or punishing her if she messes up. If she hits the hack and virus your just dead. Either rework the stealth or the virus. If I play her I can kill in the back line easy against similar skilled players without virus. She is one of the only heroes since I’ve been playing overwatch for about a year now that the counter play on mainly the dps role is spy vs spy or hope she blunders. Most annoying hero to play against for me personally and least fun to play for me.
@realhemi
5 ай бұрын
As a rein main he is totally right about what rein players enjoy. Fat shatts and pins off the map ;-; Its all we have left
@vordoen
5 ай бұрын
Team based shooter tank characters are pretty chunky in comparison to normal. because of the utility. the thing is all tanks don't have the utility that supports do, so it has to be to where they have HP.
Пікірлер: 754