This episode was recorded on 6th October 2023. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-support-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a
@MrTruth2410
10 ай бұрын
on the topic of support passive i think its better at this point if devs drop global passives idea and balance heroes case by case in their role: Ana sleep/anti cd increased to 16~ sec but her new passive when she hit a headshot reduce anti/sleep cd 1 and not consume ammo so the more Hs she hit the better uptime she has, unique passives like that would be cooler than everyone has out of combat regen
@avadanocum6495
10 ай бұрын
I love the ego on support players, even if u play good how the f does that mean that u as a 2 peson role player can completely shut down a 1 person role player?-"The kiriko negates ana", wtf a u saying? If ur iq is above 20 u hold sleep before enemy tank engages, and either u win time so he did nothing(bc he was countering sleep) or u kill him bc he was on the ground and of course support just have to do same or more dmg then dps, WITH EASIER HURTBOXES AND SMALLER HITBOXES - wtf, how in the hell u think its balanced. Orisa meta was bc she WAS the ONLY tank that wasn't hard countered by supports. I understand that supports need to be impactful but having the best cooldows, best survavibility and good easy dmg is fucking too much, choose at least 2 Also what the fuck do u mean if ana misses her cd she is dead- u assume my dps can do anything with the healing suppots have, and also why the f do u need to be so close- she has inf range. Why the f i HAVE to rely on my team to punish ana for missing her cds when dive is dead? Also everyone has to have support passive so if u play tank and ur supports go moira+mercy u can play the game
@rationaldemon195
10 ай бұрын
Id like to put this into the air in case of next debate, eskay mention about being top 500 and its a skill issue for other tanks, my question then becomes why was it easy to be top 500 on tank, you can easily see a diamond be top 500 tank, this isn't to say eskay didn't deserve it but my issue is that this fundimentally ignores the problems of tank, climbing isn't hard when there is nobody competing so this opinion of being a skill issue isn't the problem but the issue of fighting whats given to you and the frustration is you would have to deal with discourages tanks to play in the first place. Anyway to clarify my problem is that nobody is competeing to be the top of tank its a misery being the best tank until they reach the top they won't realize the problems, its easy to be tank when nobody is contesting the role, but when that moment happens its a complete misery. Every tank right now doesn't want to be at the top they feel joy when dealing lower rank players because its the only fun aspect of being tank.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
@@rationaldemon195 there’s millions of tank players
@petercroome7759
10 ай бұрын
😅😅😅
@IHJello
10 ай бұрын
How many tank players opened their arms to the heavens when they saw Bogur on the panel? Lmao
@zestybesty11
10 ай бұрын
yeah usually he’s based but his take on mercy and ana were not it
@koko-hh2bq
10 ай бұрын
@@zestybesty11I think Ana and Mercy is fine tho. The only reason why they feel bad to play against as a tank is because you have things like Bap and Kiriko's kit constantly making them nigh unkillable sometimes.
@Heppa05
10 ай бұрын
@@zestybesty11massive cope
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
@@koko-hh2bqthey aren't. I love ana but I can't defend her this time. She is overtuned at the moment
@amerhst1201
10 ай бұрын
@@koko-hh2bq Nah Ana sucks to play against as a tank. Playing as a tank against Ana when you have no Kiriko is a nightmare.
@askers_
10 ай бұрын
Shoutout to SVB for supporting really small streamers! Actual hero.
@naliskun4222
10 ай бұрын
what a nice guy he's so sweet
@smallertoast8806
10 ай бұрын
What a nice guy, boosting the small guys like Boger
@ssvv1
10 ай бұрын
Now we need a Tanks vs Support debate... Flats & Yeatle vs ML7 & Karq would be soooo fun
@diamonshade7484
10 ай бұрын
he mentioned probably doing it after this one on the tank vid
@raffyarceus99
10 ай бұрын
But I want even people arguing for 6 v 6 into that, because in my opinion that is an important part on the tanks miserable experiences
@chalopsten1408
10 ай бұрын
@raffyarceus99 yep 6v6 needs to come back 5v5 is a shithole. I wish open queue 5v5 was more popular since it's closer to the 6v6 experience but being high master or low gm in open queue is the equivalent of being plat/low diamond in role queue
@masoneckhardt8879
10 ай бұрын
This would be so sick
@moonyeast
10 ай бұрын
@@chalopsten1408it's not happening 😥
@ccalvac18
10 ай бұрын
Zarya/Orisa meta being unfun to play against is also a symptom of disproportianate power in support because those 2 tanks are the only ones in the role that can either negate the debuffs and cc that are plagueing the game AND/OR melt through the immortalities/nades via damage. If you aren't playing either of those tanks it is a miserable time.
@racmanov
10 ай бұрын
it is not just supports. When enemy goes zen/mercy + bastion/junk/ or many other low skill cheese dpses what will you do? Go orisa. Even zarya will explode instantly
@cbaileychamp
10 ай бұрын
Yeah ive been playing alot of tank recently just bc dps feels so bad. And thats saying alot bevause tank sucks rn too. Playing ball or doom and pop off one time and hit tab and see orisa sombra mccree kiri ana is just not fun in the slightest even on zarya.
@racmanov
10 ай бұрын
@@cbaileychamp and i play dpses and supports now. With both you can carry. Dpses have so many almoat 0 skill cheeze options. While on tank yoh have to play at 110% and it still does not matter
@Real_MisterSir
10 ай бұрын
Yep. They either have the ability to cut through support bs, or they can just stand there and survive anything by enabling support bs. The reason heroes like Rein are not getting played, is because they can't live off of supports nor pose a threat against an enemy with supports behind them. It's this weird middle ground and it all starts and ends with the supports. Tanks can outplay each other in isolation through various means, but supports ensure that only a select few are ever viable, because their synergy just rules out any and all counterplay outside of 2-3 tanks that always stay meta unless gigabuffed (which the devs tend to do when they don't know how to fix the problems they created in the first place with 5v5 and support creep).
@FlightX101
10 ай бұрын
thats why as an orisa main i annoyed by the hate. Not much changed with the character......invuls and the healing creep made her op as it allows her to abuse cooldowns with little risk
@waynetec13
10 ай бұрын
I've said it before, but as someone who doesn't even play OW anymore, I really enjoy the group up. Great content, SVB.
@nailinthefashion
10 ай бұрын
Same, it's fun to hear about news or opinions even tho I'm moving on. Tried Illari, gonna try new Sombra, but I have otherwise retired
@MrGrombie
10 ай бұрын
As a Rein/Ball main, you can thank all the Bastions and double pockets for the rise in Zarya players. Literally the only thing I can do to secure my own kills.
@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera
10 ай бұрын
Don’t forget sym, torb, reaper, mei and zen it’s kinda hilarious all these heroes are in the game to screw over tanks and I’m not even a tank main and see the bs😅
@mrlunar62
10 ай бұрын
Isn’t bastion a good counter to zarya?
@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera
10 ай бұрын
@@mrlunar62 you’re missing the point the whole enemy team can easily rps a tank player the enemy tank, the dpses even the supports it shouldn’t be like that or that much effective imo it’s annoying already having a tank player who hero watches you then you have the whole team swapping to only counter you? Like they said in the podcast it sucks the fun outta the tank player.
@mrlunar62
10 ай бұрын
@@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera yeah but everyone puts up with this... if there is a genji u swap to sym or mei, if the enemy has a widow u swap to tracer or sombra. normally u counter each other within ur own role. like the best counter to ana is kiriko. the best counter to bastion is genji. the best counter to zarya is rein. thats how the game is. if u think the whole enemy team counters the tank, its not a competent team then.
@Takemebacktotheplusgamingera
10 ай бұрын
@@mrlunar62 watch the podcast those are t500 players listen to what they say is optimal when they feel like supports are putting out to much pressure.
@rekelmao8213
10 ай бұрын
Notice how when they were talking about tanks they constantly only talked about orisa and zarya lmao thats the issue no tank wants to hard lock meta picks every game when dps and support have so many viable options.
@xvcynical5701
10 ай бұрын
Spitting facts rn
@kemonngo3106
10 ай бұрын
..and when the tank mains spoke they only mentioned a few supports as well (Ana & Kiriko were the main 2) so what’s your point?
@xvcynical5701
10 ай бұрын
@@kemonngo3106 Probably because they're the reason why orisa and zar are the only playable tanks?
@kemonngo3106
10 ай бұрын
@@xvcynical5701 Again, what’s your point? Tanks aren’t relevant to the support discussion so they weren’t heavily discussed. Supports aren’t relevant to the tank discussion that was at hand so they weren’t discussed. You’re not making sense
@fuscello
10 ай бұрын
@@kemonngo3106 if you legit think that support being in their most powerful state since 2016 isnt one of the main reason no one wants to play tank, you clearly dont play tank and shouldnt be talking about the role
@dammitman3000
10 ай бұрын
"Just swap" the game shouldn't dictate who i play. I should be able to outskill someone on the character I've mastered consistently without someone pressing one button and deleting me.
@silentdc404
10 ай бұрын
Swapping should give you an advantage/better tools to deal with the enemy. It should give a good overall player a chance to go even with someone who focuses on one character. It shouldn’t be to the point where you basically become a thrower simply because they pressed h after dying and clicked on another character
@LEGI43ON
10 ай бұрын
No you shouldn't. You're team should play around you. If tracer dives you mccree with a stun or hog should protect you. It's the only way it should work since it's teamplay oriented
@Hthe
10 ай бұрын
Yes and no, counter swapping should be a thing, but not to the point where you have to play literally perfect to win, and they just have to play normal, thought needs to be involved on both sides not just a a pick x so you can't play y
@Summonick2
10 ай бұрын
26:00 Bogur didn’t quite figure it out here but it’s the combination of several abilities now that can ruin what you’ve done or that you have to bait. Now almost every support has something that you must bait or get out before you can do your cool thing that normally takes a lot of effort to pull off under a lot of pressure. Dps characters have these too, like turret form, hack, mag nade, mei stuff etc. So the problem has become you actually never stop the baiting things out play. It only took like one or two more things like that before it became now essentially infinite. Pretend your playing doom. Got to go in kill pylon. Nice. Now I have charged fist, got the pylon out, but they have a kiri too so I have to get that out or my punc, a risky skill shot, will be ruined and I’ll actually die instead. Ok so I took some time got that out, but pylons up again. Ok I kill that, now I finally found the magic window where everything is lining up, my team hasn’t died, I’m healthy, I have my own CDs, I’ve been waiting so long for this, I’m doing my punch from a clever angle, there’s so much pressure on me, boom, illiari boops me off target. Start the whole thing over. Then add dps abilities. Other tank abilities even on top of it, bubble spear. Anyways, the point is the window to actually do anything but just bait cds has closed because there’s too many good CDs to bait.
@Alex_Aramayo
10 ай бұрын
I get ur example but pylon cd is 12sec & suzu is 14 so they're pretty much the same, only problem is that u would need to bait them out at the same time lmao
@gamist8166
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayohis example has a lot more cool downs that'll need to b out at the same time lol
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
Also, baiting out cooldown is one thing. The game is ultimately still a fps. And there's 5 people that can choose to shoot down the 1 guy that was baiting the abilities out. In the end, as long as Kiri has her stupid suzu and tp, bap exists, wifeleaver exists, ana exists, you have at least 4 abilities to bait out as tank before you can even decide to engage. And this is assuming the dps are not characters with abilities to bait out. People often complain orisa has the ability to cycle her cooldowns because they're so short, yeah but so is their impact. She doesn't do "high burst" anyone saying that is on mad cope because you walk in such a predictable way to get speared when anyone in top 500 maining orisa are using it as a get off me tool. Zarya has high burst but if you remove her damage charge she will be an actual worse sym. Try playing zarya with no damage charge, see if their dps doesnt just run past you getting tickled. Bogur is the Unsalted of tanks as it is.
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayo Yes but getting in to kill pylon and escape alive takes time and to be healed up, assuming nothing dangerous happens inbetween then (which is never, this is ow), you have to wait for slam and punch cd to come back up, and you're trying to bait out suzu which will be on hold until the heat death of the universe unless your ana nades their team. And even then, she can choose to hold it until you as the doom engage. By then illari's pylon is around half way back to being up.
@buttsmcgee50
10 ай бұрын
I like how every tank player pretends they're 1v5 in every scenario and think that's good evidence as to why tanks are bad. No, it's just you being bad.
@DaffyTaffy93
10 ай бұрын
Old supports vs new supports The old supports have pros and cons such as zen having high damage low mobility vs illari having high damage,high heals,and decent mobility new supports have no downsides in their kits.
@charlestothe
10 ай бұрын
Illari’s ult is mid as hell compared to zens.
@Bornchad-dragoncock
10 ай бұрын
@@charlestothethan your not using it well enough
@canadarkelfsaythenword7659
10 ай бұрын
Pretty much new supports don't have trade offs.
@ZombieNinjaTurtle
10 ай бұрын
I agree :( Even Ana’s high healing rate was justified when she first came out because she actually has to aim. Lifeweaver can just outheal most damage right now and he doesn’t even need to aim, there is 0 skill required for his insane healing output. it’s like a bronze lifeweaver and a top 500 one will basically almost have the same healing output lol
@lamparo7028
10 ай бұрын
@@charlestothe She has a better ult than most dps bro lol
@danielalvarez1230
10 ай бұрын
The issue is that supports can shut down not only most tank cooldowns if time correctly, but also ultimates for the low cost of trading one or two cooldowns. There is no much counter play a tank can do especially if two or three people switch to hard or soft counter the tank.
@Siks7Ate9
10 ай бұрын
2VDQDA watch this game and watch me do literally nothing with every single ultimate as tank. Every single thing got denied.
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
The only counterplay the tanks can do to a support ult right now is pretty much illaris' ult Cannot think of any support ult that can be reliably denied.
@KingYahtzee
10 ай бұрын
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolongI'm thinking about it now and you're right for the most part. Bare with me here: Ana Nano: basically no way to shut down aside from a perfectly timed hook, punch, pin, or spear. Very rare. Lucio Beat: Same as Nano Brig Rally: can't be shutdown afaik Illari Ult: can be eaten or blocked with shields Mercy Valk: can't be stopped Kiriko Rush: same as Nano/Beat Zen Trans: can partially be negated with a shield Bap Window: can't be shut down Moira Coal: same as Nano/Rush/Beat I could do the tank ults next to really prove this point. But that's enough for a YT comment lol.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
tanks can literally do the same
@KingYahtzee
10 ай бұрын
@@Bighoodiekid a few can but not like support
@flyingfajitas
10 ай бұрын
I tend to play all 3 roles. Support is really strong right now. Not even in a "better than the other roles" perspective, but in how they will control the flow of a round.
@RealRye
10 ай бұрын
i feel like supports should be able to sway a game with good util usage, but not jus by outright out healing and even outdamaging lol
@ForbidenXShadow
10 ай бұрын
That what that means…. Supports have way more opportunity to carry a fight
@ForbidenXShadow
10 ай бұрын
@@RealRyethey need to make the skill ceiling for supports greater. Having aoe and auto lock ability’s is to consist for the strength they bring to the fight.
@Siks7Ate9
10 ай бұрын
If you do something as tank it just gets denied or they use a ultimate and you instantly get denied your entire play because everything behind you dies instantly.
@mangshu21
10 ай бұрын
Thank You. Anybody who regularly plays all three roles understand why people are not happy with the state of supports. They control games.
@Nett11
10 ай бұрын
I went from plat to masters with only Illari this season. Id like to to think its me improving but I cant lie the role is so easy lol the amount of confidence you have in 1v1s against Damage heroes is insane. And the passive is mind boggling when the rest of the team dies and me and the other support have to peel back if we heal each other we are straight up not dying to almost anything
@PhevieWonder
10 ай бұрын
The passive doesn’t do anything if you’re both healing each other. It’s only out of combat only.
@onceright4406
10 ай бұрын
Im an Ashe main and its rough vs Illari man. Same range as you, but you just have to hit 2 headshots and instantly remove her otherwise she just outsustains and outpokes you. It's so dumb that she can literally commit onto me without being insanely punished for it.
@Real_MisterSir
10 ай бұрын
Illari is dumb busted. You have the skill to make use of this, and you should credit yourself for that part. But it's still ultimately Illari as a hero who is just getting crazy value with relatively minimal effort if you have fundamentally decent aim and Pylon use. We saw the same (albeit to a more extreme degree) with launch Brigitte where people who were hardstuck plat and gold were reaching GM in weeks by just onetricking her the whole way before nerfs started to kick in.
@Real_MisterSir
10 ай бұрын
@@onceright4406 Yep and remember she too can hit headshots and her shot hitbox is wider too. Illari just has so much value, and most of it is not even tied to high skill either - only really the ranged aim part is to some degree mechanically dependent.
@theredguy92
10 ай бұрын
What’s dumb is that supports characters have the smallest hit boxes and their weapons have projectile sizes 2x the size of the other roles. It is literally easy mode.
@InkPrince
10 ай бұрын
Emi hit the bullseye by pointing out the lack of flaws/cons that certain supports which is probably the key issue with certain supports being considered "OP". Kiriko can do cleanse, damage AND has high mobility and there's no way to necessarily beat/play around Kiri except focusing her otherwise her value is constant in team fights. Same with Illari, Lifeweaver, Moira and Bap. Their value is constant and there's nothing you can exploit about them that balances out the pros/cons of the supports. Characters like Zen and Ana hold a lot of power but lack mobility. Lucio has super high mobility but lacks strong healing and lethal to really persuade team fights 100% of the time, Mercy gives benefits but does nothing herself and isn't much of a threat alone. Brig has the MIT but lacks range lifeweaver was very much killable back then because of his hitbox but the devs buffed his survivability with the increase swift step healing and shield health which they shouldn't cuz it removed his flaw/cons. Same with Moira the devs buffed her so her resource management, self healing and escapes which use to be the cons of her having high Stats. And then the problem gets added to what Bogur said about how Supports stack covering each other definitely becomes a problem when you have 2 of these "OP" supports or even just 1 covering the faults of a support that isn't OP.
@buttsmcgee50
10 ай бұрын
So far, this is the only sane take here. Each support should have a clear weakness to exploit, however you can't say it's an issue that supports use teamwork to cover the weaknesses of eachother. It's a game about teamwork, so thinking that is an issue doesn't belong in this game.
@bucketwithin
10 ай бұрын
Mostly agree, but the Moira take doesn't make any sense to me. She has huge, glaring weaknesses. Heavily restricted range + absolutely 0 utility to speak of, and slow but steady dps. It's very difficult for her to manage her team's health outside of brawl comps without putting significantly more pressure on your other support, and she has absolutely no way to change the outcome of any fight besides "heal more" and "do damage." She's easy to play and get decent value out of, and somewhat annoying to fight, but more in the "gnat flying around your face" way and not the Kiriko/Bap/Illari "hit you in the face with a rock" way.
@finnical9718
10 ай бұрын
Generalists should be overall weaker, specialists should be strong with clear weaknesses.
@ryancraigt
9 ай бұрын
Is lifeweavers weakness not his lack of damage? He's not dueling many dps or any enemy supports. Sure tune his numbers a bit, but I think otherwise he's fine. Kiri on the other hand 💀
@insector2
10 ай бұрын
I felt like Eskay's opening point boiled down to 'If you play these 3 OP tanks then tanking isn't bad'. Yeah playing the FotM character usually feels pretty decent, but to have the rest of the tank roster unusable doesn't mean taking is ok.
@Alex_Aramayo
10 ай бұрын
But all tanks talk about is Ana, Kiri, & Bap
@fernandomoras9160
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayoyeah, both roles have very strong heroes and very underpowered heroes
@marvynjeanbaptiste3206
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayobut the list is much bigger for supports throw in LW, Illiari, mercy pocket
@diamonshade7484
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayoimmortality, sleep and Ana nade
@andreamicheli2575
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_AramayoWith the exception that even Zarya and Orisa are nowhere near as broken as supports
@v2i5v8i2
10 ай бұрын
After the wifeleaver challenge, bogur is a LEGIT HEALER main
@C1umsyJester
10 ай бұрын
Support*
@johnymousAnonymous
10 ай бұрын
@@C1umsyJesteron lifeweaver you’re just a healer tbh
@C1umsyJester
10 ай бұрын
@@johnymousAnonymous but your pull and platform supports the team, you’re not just healing
@BeastMode-bw2ry
10 ай бұрын
More like trolling.
@surprise7002
10 ай бұрын
@@C1umsyJester healer*
@SixNineFourTwenty
10 ай бұрын
9:12 "Zarya is unfun to play against because she negates everything." Wow guess who also negates everything.
@phannhat385
10 ай бұрын
Bap can heal the target she beams and deal 150 a pop by shooting her in the head at once, and literally delete her with window, bubble or not… also zar can’t effectively kill lamp around corner either without exposing herself too much. I guess she can be unkillable if they also have any combination of lifeweaver, bap, kiriko, and they play it right but that also inflate the immortality issue in support kit more and not help it.
@SixNineFourTwenty
10 ай бұрын
@@phannhat385i was quoting em
@ooochoa
10 ай бұрын
Zarya is good this season because her bubbles are some kind of cleanse, very good for this overheal meta.
@silentdc404
10 ай бұрын
While I can see her pov (I still disagree) my question is, has she played zar? Zarya is not my main so I may be playing her a bit wrong. From my experience you are basically playing support zarya most of the time and not even really frontlining much, at least till you get high charge. It’s not very fun.
@demifolk8940
10 ай бұрын
wtf is with this tribalism shit overwatch is going into lmao multiple things can be annoying at once. zarya negating shit can be as well as supports.
@fergusgraem3625
10 ай бұрын
1:39:00 what bogur says here is true. There is not alot of close brawl anymore. But if your team plays it, moira is actually insane. Her heal orbs are so valuable in this comp. You can easily get 20k healing. And if the enemy team plays close brawl also (whats even more rare) you can also get ALOT of damage.
@joeyu498
10 ай бұрын
eh not really. her kit need a major rework as she has no utility... do play her if you like your stats
@lukelilly1572
10 ай бұрын
@@joeyu498moira is really good an acrually balanced as shit. They spend this whole video whining about how supports are OP and then half the comment section wants to buff moira. She’s good, really good, at her niche, they do not need to buff number.tons of raw damage, tons of raw burst healing, and has a great ultimate. Needs 0 changes.
@lukelilly1572
10 ай бұрын
Buff her*. Not the numbers.
@mattc6015
10 ай бұрын
@@joeyu498she doesn’t need utility what’re they gonna do give every character a get outta jail free card
@mattc6015
10 ай бұрын
@@joeyu498and she’s very strong without utility
@ccalvac18
10 ай бұрын
The tanks new role of almost exclusively baiting abilities now means that supports set the tempo; watching for nade, sleep, suzu, Kiri tp, lamp, pull, petal, pylon, etc before a commited engage is just nutty and creates for a very passive tank experience. There's now too much risk fir little reward for setting up engages on tank. The difference of whether I'm owning or feeding being changed in the blink of an eye depending on whether an aoe and/or immortality ability and/or deployable is used is just WILD. Orisa/Zarya/Sigma can eat or negate the abilities and are all relatively passive all ready and in terms of active tanks much of Doomfist's kit is based around baiting abilities (though Doom is having a rough time against Ana/Bastion/Sombra) so that's really why those tanks are seeing play but good luck to ANY one else.
@Real_MisterSir
10 ай бұрын
Also the primary downfall of this ability bait is, that due to support creep, most abilities are either on short cooldowns, or can be fairly easily cooldown rotated to optimize uptime and minimize vulnerability openings. As a tank, your window for making an effective play boils down to 1-2 second openings per engage, at most. Outside of that, you're just playing to live and get some ult value in the process while not hard feeding. It's a very passive experience.
@ollie2316
10 ай бұрын
also if the enemy kiri or bap isnt stupid, they will hold their abilities for certain ults etc. They talk about baiting abilities like its something you can consistently do "just bait suzu lol".@@Real_MisterSir
@jimirio4191
10 ай бұрын
Its funny how they consistently brought up Zarya and Orisa, but that's because they have 'self cleanse' to prevent getting exploded by when hit by a support ability. This is the reason they are played and it's astonishing how the support mindset doesn't quite put this together. Supports can pop an ability and win a fight with little risk, while tanks pop an ability to hopefully survive. In OW1 the situation was reversed. I was surprised to see Bogur at first, but I was really happy to see someone in the podcast that's not biased towards their role.
@Alex_Aramayo
10 ай бұрын
Everybody is biased of their role Tanks want to be 400+ hp dps characters Dps want all supports to be helpless/vulnerable & to not defend themselves & Supports want to have independent impact instead of enabling/saving useless teammates (Metal ranks)
@diamonshade7484
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_AramayoMe a tank that just wants consistent heals😢
@Alex_Aramayo
10 ай бұрын
@diamonshade7484 sounds like a support diff lmao if I see my Tank getting bullied by Anti's I switch to Kiriko if my other support doesn't
@someguy9970
10 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayo Support should be helpless without their team. Look at Medic from TF2, he's weak on his own yet no one is saying he sucks lmfao. OW has one of the dumbest playerbases I've ever seen I swear.
@kin-3877
10 ай бұрын
Yeah no zarya and orisa are picked because THEY counter every tank not anything to do with supports at all. Bastion makes other tanks too squishy so orisa is the only tank that will survive but then you have to pick zarya to fight the orisa. And you cant fight the bastion with dva because again, Zarya exists. Blaming the stagnant tank meta on supports is the dumbest thing shek its been bastion, orisa and zarya being buffed that forced this meta
@ccalvac18
10 ай бұрын
1:01:45 I think SVB makes an excellent point here that really drives home the point of the issue: even in an active engage where a Doomfist is playing "perfectly" 1v2-ing an Ana/Brig and making it so all those resources are siphoned to themselves, it is STILL passive in that you are waiting for your team to take advantage of that pocket of time and *s p a c e* you created. It's the equivalent of a Mercy playing near perfectly but if their team isn't DOING anything then they aren't going to win; the whole point of these support tunings was to give supports more agency in games so they never endured moments like I just described (a good change) but by not attending to the needs of the singular tank they've now just created a new support role.
@Steelers43jc
10 ай бұрын
Brig has been the problem for dive hero’s. It’s stacking especially if you aren’t cracked at the game a team that commits to full dive should be able to kill a brig
@obscuradoom813
10 ай бұрын
What's the clip I haven't seen it
@josephreynolds2401
10 ай бұрын
Interesting perspective. I think I agree. Should Doomfist be able to do more against this support duo? Or is it tank's job to aggro that attention from 2 supports so that DPS CAN make a play. The WoW solution is the latter. The Competition moba solution is the former. I think OW2 tank emulates the Moba tank more than any other genre of game with roles, even among shooters. Edit: Follow up to that, if it is the intention for some tanks to be one way or the other.... If the tank is playing for the WoW-->aggro-survive-repeat style, then SVB nails the issue with feedback. There needs to be positive feedback for sponging.
@buttsmcgee50
10 ай бұрын
If we get to a place where a single tank can kill both supports with no help, you will never play the game again because no one will play support. This is just more evidence that tank players are mad supps aren't free kills anymore and it's tiring.
@OhtoMata
10 ай бұрын
I think one of the biggest issues of Tank vs Support is being proactive vs reactive. Tank has to proactively predict and block things like Sleep Dart before they even land, which is much more difficult than supports ability to just undo plays, after the dart has landed and it should be getting value supports can just Suzu, Life Grip, or in some cases due to their now bloated numbers just out heal the slept target who should probably be dead. Now I hate Ana more than anything in this world so I am glad there are ways to remove her broken effects, but the ability to "hit undo" for support is getting crazy especially when they are also good at making their own plays and keeping themselves alive. TLDR: Tank has to stop the play before it happens which is hard and interactive, Support can undo the play after it happens which is easy and soul crushing.
@OhtoMata
10 ай бұрын
Also cheers to Bogur for having the worst take ever spoken on the podcast. It takes legitimately no skill to land Ana's abilities on the one tank who is the size of a semi-truck. That rickety old wench has 3 ultimates and people act like it is fair. Any one of her abilities can single handedly win a fight and no other character can say that. Even if you say bubble one she will step inside bubble and use the other, "but then she wasted two cool downs" no she used two cool-downs to get a kill and still has the highest healing output in the game AND good damage even without abilities. I play league as well and I still contest that Ana is worse than any horrors that game produces.
@abirneji
10 ай бұрын
honestly you kinda got a point that I've never heard echoed before but as a tank main resonates so hard with me
@penrilfake
10 ай бұрын
@@OhtoMatathis is less a problem w Ana herself and 100% a problem w the support passive. The passive made it so she can use purple nade 99% of the time, and that's why she can feel so insanely oppressive.
@OhtoMata
10 ай бұрын
@@penrilfake That is a pretty good point, I still think Ana was problematic even before the passives but you're so right that the passive pushes her into feeling oppressive.
@freedom3208
10 ай бұрын
@@penrilfakerole passives were such a mistake
@rishabh5750
10 ай бұрын
This was a good listen for sure. Sad Eskay had to leave early and couldnt argue for Lucio when Bogur was going off on most of the lucio players being throwers hah. Still a fun episode. Keen to see if you do a DPS version of this too
@smoki-senpai6247
10 ай бұрын
He did mention her as one of the few who he's confident winning w, most lucios are throwers.
@rileyp3707
10 ай бұрын
Even eskay said before she left that she feels she would get more value sleeping at keyboard than playing Lucio
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
And bogur isnt wrong, half of my lucios are going in trying to duel an illari/ana/widow/hanzo/junkrat/even the fucking pharah and im sitting here thinking why.
@PurpleNoir
10 ай бұрын
I second that, 90 percent of Lucios I play with are in la la land.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
Lucio not even a bad hero, there players just suck 😭
@Gazaze
10 ай бұрын
I'm so impressed how ow community so much involved to the balance discussion compared to other games (thanks SVB for conducting this :D). I hope this will lead devs to a better direction for future changes. I wonder if they take such great input from this, or if they have other means to take input and balance stuff other than tracked stats :/
@inlandthempire.6932
10 ай бұрын
What are you whiffing? Can I have some of that copium
@ollie2316
10 ай бұрын
lol ... trusting the devs just look at the history of overwatch
@damianateiro
10 ай бұрын
HAHAHAHA, I don't know where you get that from, but when it comes to talking about balance, the majority of the Overwatch community cry like babies and get angry like monkeys
@ollie2316
10 ай бұрын
the devs are ass at balance changes idk how u could believe anything else. i agree the tribalism in balance changes is ridiculous- but the balance team is awful@@damianateiro
@blakey9869
10 ай бұрын
Yeah the players talk about it all the time, it's a shame blizzard doesn't listen to us.
@PrometheusXV
10 ай бұрын
Not finished yet, so I don't know if they mention this, but: I think the biggest point of friction against support players is how disproportionately easy it is for supports to achieve value than any other role. I play a lot of every role, historically a tank main, but I've been playing a decent bit of support this season - they're genuinely so easy in comparison. I mean, they barely have to aim. A lot of them have abilities which make their positioning super forgiving. Their abilities tend to be powerful even when used reactively so they don't really have to think about what's happening that much. All the while they casually put out damage comparable to dps. Compare that to Tracer and it's night and day. I've been practicing a lot of flank dps lately because it's my only "sub-role" that isn't consistently GM, and it's so infuriating trying to attack the enemy team's backline. You spend all of this time pathing, dodging damage, getting health packs, providing pressure - then you go to engage and it's just lamp, heal burst, suzu, pylon, you finally get one of them low and they're magically full health again, you doubt your eyes for a second thinking maybe it's a visual bug, then they escape across the map, or hell they just turn and out-duel you. It's just not fun. The amount of effort that you have to put in, just for them to press a single button (without aiming it) and turn the fight, is legitimately unfair. And I know some people might say "Skill issue" - which yeah, I'm pretty bad at flankers lol. Barely M1/GM5, and struggling even there. But I'm way better on other roles, and it's the exact same damn thing. Every time. The role is beyond forgiving in every regard compared to other roles. You have so much more freedom to play essentially wherever you want, and it's very difficult to punish you for it. Compare that to playing tank in high ranks where you get slightly out of position and literally just explode. "Well Zarya is soooo strong" - if Zarya mistimes her bubble by a millisecond she's getting sent back to spawn with a stamp and a signature. Her headshot hitbox is damn near the size of Ana herself. I regularly see Bap players throwing lamp at air and using shift before anyone is even low - and these players are like GM2 dude. It's honestly silly. Every other role feels like it needs to be on point with every decision and every shot, while support just does not feel that way in the slightest.
@KingOfNebbishes
10 ай бұрын
Yep, even the "skill" of Ana is grossly overstated, since her hurtbox for her shots is much larger than an actual shooter and her abilities are much easier to hit, sleep dart being twice as large as a Hanzo log and nade having a huge AoE that doesn't have any falloff.
@uhoh6763
10 ай бұрын
@@KingOfNebbishesUnfair comparison to the head homing Hanzo logs :( .lol seriously though, sleep and nade are pretty strong but we won't really notice till after suzu/lifegrip is gone. Specially in 5v5, a sleep is a lot worse than it was in 6v6. Unlucky it gets suzud just like shatter, sig ult, dva bomb, rein pin, doom ult.. and the list goes on
@Real_MisterSir
10 ай бұрын
As a dps main who has been playing more tank and support since OW2 launched, (and also did around 40/30/30 prior to that), support just get soooo much easy value and it's not even close. Imagine if Reinhardt could just pin into your team, smack around, throw some firestrikes, and then fade his invulnerable ass back to his team with minimal consequences. That would put him on par with a generic support in terms of forgiveness. Now playing Ana, Moira, and Illari (primarily these 3, flex to others if situation needs it), I outdps and outfrag my dps allies consistently - and they're not playing bad by any means. They're just playing within their hero limitations. Meanwhile I can just hop around, use space as I like because if anyone threatening enough decides to duel me, I have 2 abilities to counter and flip the duel, I have self heal, I have equal- or better damage output, and I also have an ally Kiriko who can tp to me at any moment with zero risk and turn it into an ez 2v1 on our side. Supports dictate where fights can happen, at what tempo they are carried out, who can/can't flank or dive, and also commandeer ult fights. Most of this they do by simple ability use that rarely is mechanically dependent beyond aiming in the general direction of where you want the effect to take place. Playing support is like playing Dead by Daylight. Except I as the support am the one hunting everyone else while also keeping my team alive with relatively little effort.
@joshnjericho
10 ай бұрын
Bogur kinda mentioned it. He talks about how wife leaver is so relaxing to play for the kind of impact he makes.
@SuperThest
10 ай бұрын
@@KingOfNebbishes You're confusing the term Hurtbox and HItbox. Attacks have a hitbox, an opponent has a hurtbox. When scoped in Ana is just a hitscan, there is no hitbox for her shots. Her shots only have a hitbox when she is Unsoped and shooting an actual projectile, But every projectile now has a minimum 0.1m hit box which is what her and Hanzo use. It's worth pointing out that they only recently added that hitbox too. Ana use to have the only projectile attack that had no hitbox and needed to be pinpoint like a hitscan. Also, sleep dart has twice the radius of hanzo's arrow, but that makes it 4 times larger.
@expertb6348
10 ай бұрын
You probably won't see this SVB, but I just want to say the way you conduct these debates is awesome. I don't really play Overwatch, but listening to these discussions is entertaining. You do an excellent job of guiding the panel members. You make sure they stay on topic as well as help them make their points in a clearer fashion.
@norman24
10 ай бұрын
honestly everyone except karq is based karq is delusional
@eis-3844
10 ай бұрын
Fax
@norman24
10 ай бұрын
mf is talking about everything except support lmao
@heiko2255
10 ай бұрын
KarQ is shilling for blizzard and 5v5, cant take that Guy seriously Especially as someone who is supposed to give "Educational Support Content" he is pretty delusional
@siffumetsu271
10 ай бұрын
I appreciate karq being devils advocate in this but one thing i want to point out the whole "orisa cant die" thing is because supports are highly overturned on the healing side, we have 1 less person in the game why do we have way more healing lol
@jewbee_5364
10 ай бұрын
While on paper that does make sense (your second point), the reality is that the removed role is the second tank. The second tank allowed for the other tank to share/offload some of the cc and damage between the two, making the trading of resources much more manageable. So now all the damage and CC is being forced on that lone tank. In my honest opinion what needs to happen is the decrease of damage and healing across all roles, with the tuning of hero abilities like fortify/bubble/all that good jazz (theres A LOT of kits and abilities that need changing or tuning but these are just the most over-glaring). It would be a massive overhaul, but its a necessary one since OW decided to move to a 5v5 format, as a developer you have to understand removing a pivotal piece in a game like OW is much more deeper than you can comprehend.
@user-sg2es3jo6i
10 ай бұрын
@@jewbee_5364 these are the changes that shouldve been made in the transition from 6v6 to 5v5, they are basic, and blizzard (what a surprise) fumbled i think at this point the game would be more healthy with 2 changes: remove supp passive and add an extra tank to each team
@inahacim6582
10 ай бұрын
playing support in OW2, I can literally sandbag my abilities for the big plays because of the other support. Versus 2 tanks.. the decisions to use or hold abilities had more weight to the consequences
@lanax7922
10 ай бұрын
“I think immort is nerfed because people are more spread out” is actual gaslighting lmfao
@ckamo10
10 ай бұрын
its true, you save maybe 2 people max with it or usually its just yourself or 1 person
@AllThingsCubey
9 ай бұрын
@@ckamo10This. You can even tell team you have it ready, and to group up to survive an ult, and they won't. You'll save yourself and a +1 at best
@Quizzy0000
10 ай бұрын
bogur blesses my soul i went from 59% overall winrate to 60% in this season with 4439 games played on lucio
@typicallytex8397
10 ай бұрын
fun fact that 1% difference is 44 games you would've lost before that you now won so assuming 4 wins for a division up and 4 wins for a division down, instead of going down 11 divisions you went up 11 divisions making a net gain of 22 divisions or 4 entire ranks. source; trust me bro
@nufcjoker9057
10 ай бұрын
Wow impressive that much of been like torture with this bad game
@ItBeJae
10 ай бұрын
Being a support main I can agree with a few things: There are a few supports that are annoying af to play against. But what people dont realize is that this change to supports is the communities doing. Supports are so strong due to 6v6 being taken away. Think back to OW 1. The off tank was the anchor of the team. They would usually be the ones on objective and would peel the most for the support players. Community complained about having the off tank due to double shields meta AND also how support players were playing certain heros together that just werent doing the job. Ok done! OW 2 comes out. 5v5 is put into play and supports are given a huge buff because that off tank is now gone. Supports are able to play whoever they want now (in some cases). Supports need to be able to protect themselves in the backline due to that extra support being gone. But now people are mad because of that? People complained that supports whined too much about needing help but get upset because now they CAN actually help themselves. I'm a bit confused by all of this.
@jmorgmate
10 ай бұрын
Bogur's insight to every hero / issue is just "its obnoxious" or "its annoying" 😂 he's not wrong, it's just not comprehensive enough for a 'debate'
@marvynjeanbaptiste3206
10 ай бұрын
No way y’all say it’s a tank issue and proceed to only name 2 tanks repeatedly
@someguy9970
10 ай бұрын
Because those two tanks are the only ones that don't get bullied by supports lmfao. Support players are insane.
@matthewmalloy1892
10 ай бұрын
I feel like a healthy change to turret based characters is to have them break when they die, but i am rather stupid when it comes to OW.
@markstewardson4006
10 ай бұрын
I would like it if sombra hacks a turret based character the turret switches sides for a small duration forcing them to either destroy it and put it on CD or accept it being used against them for a little while.
@diamonshade7484
10 ай бұрын
@@markstewardson4006interesting
@penrilfake
10 ай бұрын
@@markstewardson4006 Yo I'd love this so much!!
@xSolraccarloSx
10 ай бұрын
I hope Eskay knows it's appreciated what a trooper she was this podcast!
@infurza9408
10 ай бұрын
Glaze
@Khy_r
10 ай бұрын
this might be a hot take, but i feel as though the point KarQ made about how support can always do something no matter the situation is the reason i think the role is overtuned. Supports can provide utility through abilities (anti, immortality, stun, damage boost), provide damage, and provide healing, whereas dps can only provide damage and tanks can provide damage and utility. I think support should only be able to do like 2 of those things really well, not all 3.
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
Thats been the problem. The new characters can do too many things. Where is the weakness? Look at a character like Ana. She can heal herself then stun but once she uses up her abilities she's slow. Zen in the same way. He heals little with his orb, lacks mobility but he hits like a truck. Then we have the new characters (kiriko and Iliari. Kiriko can dish out more damage than dps, suzu can cleanse, heal and make someone immortal for a second TO A GROUP. Then if she is in danger she can TP out, or if someone is in trouble she can TP in then suzu. Then Iliari can do THREE THINGS. She dishes out a shit ton of damage, she can dish out of a ton of healing with her pylon and gun AND she can mobility hop. AND she has a DPS ULTIMATE).
@TheEnviious
10 ай бұрын
This is true, and the supports will swap for whatever the situation needs, but you barely see any DPS swaps. We need MORE tanks, for more situations
@AnikethBandi
10 ай бұрын
I think the issue here with saying that some tanks are strong is that tank players don't want to have to play the 2 tanks that are viable now. For the average player they want to play whatever, but if the other team goes orisa, or zarya, your immediately forced to switch to have a chance at having fun. Nobody is saying that zarya and orisa arent strong, but nobody wants to play those two but the way the game is right now basically forces you to play them. And this isn't like goats or double shield where it only affected the upper ranks, it affects the lower ranks now too. Now while that's not a balance issue and more of a 5v5 issue, I'm not here to argue for that. The other issue is that while not all supports are broken, all of them are still playable. Doesn't matter if its only kiriko, bap, ana, etc is strong if the rest of the supports can be played, meaning that the average support player can play their favorite pick. That option just doesn't exist for the average tank player rn.
@ryancraigt
9 ай бұрын
I think the "play proper tank" in low ranks is just a placebo. You can play almost anything in metal ranks and be fine. What you'll be held back by is the attitude and behavior of your teammates reacting to a 'submeta' pick. Similarly people in metal ranks like to 'counter swap' vs the tank and end up getting less value because they arnt familiar with the match ups as well. Its a people problem not a game problem imo.
@gamist8166
10 ай бұрын
Im so happy Eskay brought up the wrecking ball fireball size hitbox that illari has on her dps gun, better than ashe. Her falloff isnt bad either... The weakness to that damage is nothing. Nada.
@kevinkalani
10 ай бұрын
45:00 Bogur's point here is what is the most frustrating about support. It feels like they can just hijack the game. As a tank I am always pressured to pick to "counter" even though 80-90% of the time, swapping the support wins the game. Feeling like I have no control over whether we win or lose because my supports decide to go Mercy Lucio, so I have to play Orisa just so I don't die, feels awful.
@1trillions
10 ай бұрын
how you gonna have a great support debate and no ML7 cmon on bro
@nathanaelshumsky2977
10 ай бұрын
Actual facts lol
@supendous
10 ай бұрын
he'll be on for great healer debate dw
@Azarthes
10 ай бұрын
ml7 couldnt make it dude cmon bro
@jzimmermann7
10 ай бұрын
Support players concept of what is overpowered vs underpowered is so delusional. They can never accept the support role being truly balanced. They always need things to be overtuned to feel satisfied.
@Jeronimoeser
10 ай бұрын
I'm unsure whether this really should be considered for a core evaluation of the support tank interaction, but I think that a substantial part of frustration in low rank play stems from the fact that there is an expectation for a tank to protect their backline (i.e. genji dives in, tank should turn around and peel him off) while tanks also need to have a frontline presence and sometimes need to apply pressure and go deep themselves, effectively needing to perform the combined jobs of what previously was 2 tanks. You could say skill issue and that would not at all be wrong but if potentially the majority of your playerbase comes to wrong conclusions about responsibilities during a game maybe you need to adress that with design
@user-sg2es3jo6i
10 ай бұрын
6x6 would solve that
@andreighinescu4946
10 ай бұрын
The great dps debate is gonna be a yt short
@kevinatenine9797
10 ай бұрын
Nerf supports. Debate over.
@ER-mw7fh
10 ай бұрын
What a well developed and nuanced take
@mickeyboy90
10 ай бұрын
Love being a tank player, having to cower from supports in game (bap, kiri, zen, ana, illiari) do way too much.
@kevinatenine9797
10 ай бұрын
@@ER-mw7fh thanks. it's not easy being so smart. I try to stay humble
@shinitai.x
10 ай бұрын
Yes but they need to do something about the rest
@WhatisaLee
10 ай бұрын
Yes, nerf damage to 1dps, heals to 1 hps, and slow their movement by 50%. Debate certainly over.
@zayodadong
10 ай бұрын
the problem isn't one role, it's the devs and their unwillingness to nerf things that are actually a problem to the game. Doesn't matter the role, they just want the easiest heroes to be the strongest and they don't care how unfun and unengaging that makes the core gameplay loop. They've been like that for years. "Everybody's wanted Hanzo to stop one shotting with log sized hitboxes since the game came out? Okay we'll nerf Widow then."
@deadhelix
10 ай бұрын
I agree but I don’t think they nerfed widow because of ppl hated hanzo. the only person I saw ever complain about hanzo before widows nerf was Marblr. Everyone and their mother was yelling about widow after sojurn got the boot so they definitely listened to that. I’ve only seen an uprise in hanzo haters this season so if we speak out about him something can still happen
@ashonline77
10 ай бұрын
The way to nerf hanzo is to make his arrow really small and only give value to really accurate players. If they take away the one shot he's gonna be terrible
@LEGI43ON
10 ай бұрын
Back then after viral video of pov hanzo headshoting widow who's head was behind the corner they actually nerfed the size
@deadhelix
10 ай бұрын
@@ashonline77 the problem though is that hanzo is able to 1 shot at long range and mid and close, and it gets easier to do so the closer you are, vs widow where someone being in your face is a big issue.
@xythiera7255
10 ай бұрын
Widow is still broken af what you mean . Hanzo is so broken omg 😂 . If you dont burst down peopl as Hanzo you become compleatly usless . The times were slow consistent damage is a thing is long gone if you dont burst somebody down he gets insta full healed or dont even notice you shot him . Hanzo actuly needs skill to hit shots .
@SolRise_yt
10 ай бұрын
Been t500 for a couple of seasons and specialized in only two to 3 tanks. Been fine until the support creep. Tank is being put on such a high standart of perfection that one single mistake can flip the fight. I wanna best a teamfight because i have put hours into a tank and learned its kit to the fullest, not because i pressed the H button and swapped to the right hero. Swapping should still be viable, but i wouldnt want to be "out skilled" by enemy tank pressing H and swapping to simething else.
@lukenerdy
10 ай бұрын
Yeah, like I've been playing Doomfist more because he's fun for me and basically after one fight I'm forced to swap if I die once and its just annoying, I don't want to have to always swap because I want to have fun which can be hard in this game so me having to swap just to try and win the next team fight just doesn't feel good.
@ollie2316
10 ай бұрын
all the people who are ok with how tank is right now, its because they just switch between playing orisa and playing zarya
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
@@ollie2316 Ironically thats what eskay was saying 20minutes into the podcast "hurr skill issue cuz you didn't swap" What if I told herto swap off lucio cuz it wasn't meta lol. Thats pretty much her argument at that point and it was incredibly shallow. Tanks want to play other characters, not be forced onto Orisa/Zarya because they can ignore the support bullshit 60% of the time and get popped instantly.
@heiko2255
10 ай бұрын
May i Introduce you to 6v6 the suprerior format, where you could even make things like Hog/Zarya work. Compared to 5v5 where for example, Dva Vs Zarya is just a shitty unfun matchup where the dva probably has to swap. I miss 6v6, it had small balance issues but was 10x more fun than 5v5
@captain4930
10 ай бұрын
When CC's, cleaning or interruption is around, its always along the words ' not fun'. Leaving it there
@Furious_Bananas
10 ай бұрын
the biggest issue i have with what karq was saying around 36:00 is that yes, some tanks can counterplay ults with cooldown abilities. It is very matchup dependent though. THe biggest problem with that, is that there is only ONE tank. so they should be able to do that. Other roles should have to play around tank cooldowns. But 3 supports can counter almost any ult in the game on cooldown. its a hero problem. and the way the heros where designed originally was around tank hate. Thats not even including sombras rework. If a team is running kiriko, bap, illari, brig, bastion, mei, sombra, ( especially sombra reworked), torb, or sym, and you are playing Tank, you stop playing tank. And if you are rolling as a tank, you will aways get some version of those heros combined just to specifically stop you from playing the game. But without fail your team also swaps to tank hate and niether tank has fun. Tank SHOULD be able to counter ults on cooldown. Supports and dps should have to keep track of 1 hero and be worried about it since there is only one.
@Bornchad-dragoncock
10 ай бұрын
Its in my belief that there are 4 problem people in support Right now, Those being Bap,Illari,Ana and kiriko,. Those 4 make DPS And Especially Tank Really miserable, as in Bap Immo, Illaris Very High Damage Output, Ana Nade And Kiri Suzu, Lucio Is Very Balanced, Having Neither High Healing Nor High Damage But Makes up for it with mobility And Speed boost. Brigitte is Also Somewhat Balanced, She has Her Niches of being a dive killer But thats about it, as you dont really see her alot in poke or Brawl Zen is also balanced having Very high Damage but. Very low single target healing but Discord really needs work. Lifeweaver Could become a problem Maker as he has one of the highest Single Target Healing in the game And Massive Mobility and survivability. Mercy isnt bad by any means and is a very balanced support Moira is really balanced.
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
@@Bornchad-dragoncock Even if I talked in a dps perspective, if a genji wanted to dive a baptiste, he has to deal with 3 fucking hp bars. What fucking character, has 3 hp bars that rival a tank in terms of tankiness. None. Literally bap could be tankier than a tank in the right circumstances. Illari just being a better single target ashe/soldier hybrid is also illegal, try dueling an illari with pylon across the map as soldier/ashe, good fucking luck if she's not dumb. Ana is probably the highest skill ceiling out of all the supports if you want to duel her as a dive dps, tracer probably has the best time out of it, poke from mid range, try to bait nade and sleep then reengage, but fail the sleep dart bait and you're fucking goners. Otherwise dueling as hitscan good fucking luck when she's cross map away from you with no damage fall off whatsoever. Kiriko is whatever to duel tbh, unless they're godly in landing headshots she's not a threat to duel, just impossibly annoying to kill. Zen literally doesn't let half the tanks play at all, just by existing with his damage orb, I literally quit playing qp matches if I see a zen when all I want is to play Rein. So fun to hide behind a wall for 20s because zen instantly reapplies discord orb if I dared to peek him without my shield up for 1 nanosecond. Guess what, I lost that game following the advice of stupid support mains. "YoU sHoUlD jUsT hIdE"
@Bornchad-dragoncock
10 ай бұрын
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong Which is exactly why I Put Bap in the problem makers category along with illari and Kiriko, Ana on second thought needs to be very skilled to get away from divers, and I’ll give you the zen part ( playing Reinhardt against Zen Bastion is a Fuckin nightmare) Illari is just DPS in the wrong category seriously, she’s a better Ashe with a bullet hit box so massive it makes Roadhogs Dick look like a pencil and her healing pylon gives her the edge in every duel. Kirikos Suzu denies ults better than anything in the game ( Land 4 man shatter and poof they are all up like nothing happened) and her hit box is so small she can probably fit inside Genjis Bumhole it’s insane not to mention TP, above all that she lands headshots easier than hanzo.
@Klyttorius
10 ай бұрын
So essentially, the new supports are like OG 1-shot Hog. OG Hog was actually quite balanced with his 1-shot, because it's a 2-shot. He's a slow fatso, and there were so many ways to counter him. But OG Hog was the most annoying thing to play against. So they gutted him. But they aren't going to gut the new supports who are debatably even more annoying to play against than OG Hog.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
hell nah that one shot had to go
@hambster9759
10 ай бұрын
@@Bighoodiekiddisagree. They should have nerfed other parts of the kits. Like he is absolute garbage rn bc if this.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
@@hambster9759 maybe make him into a dps? that’s the only solution i could think of to maybe justify giving him a one shot. it’s just flat out unfair to give a tank with his level of survivability an insta kill
@jacobkelly1653
10 ай бұрын
Playing tank feels like i can do everything right, have nothing happen, and then the rest of the community says i should feel good about it because i played it right, but i cant feel good or have fun if i just die and lose. It gets so boring
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
I'm not allowed to make plays as a Tank. I am now required to make space, bait out cooldowns and take all the bullshit these fucking little squishies cant.
@AbbyOW2
10 ай бұрын
Good morning! Just woke up and can't wait to watch this throughout the morning, seems like a fun episode.
@AnimeOtaku56.
10 ай бұрын
Love your content Abby.
@AbbyOW2
10 ай бұрын
@morocuda2090
10 ай бұрын
Love you man!
@AbbyOW2
10 ай бұрын
aaaaaaa where is everyone coming from ;-; thanks dood love u 2 @@morocuda2090
@PrometheusXV
10 ай бұрын
On KarQ's thoughts on dealing with a Mercy pocket around 1:08:00. Yes, of course you shouldn't expect to win a 1v2 as an Ashe without a pocket against an Ashe with a pocket. The issue is the Mercy can theoretically pocket that Ashe infinitely. She has no resource to truly manage. She has no "forced" decision making. If her other support can keep the team alive, she has absolutely 0 need to ever stop pocketing that Ashe. If you can't get a pocket yourself, or can't mind control your team to coordinate with you, you are just permanently fighting an uphill battle now because 2 players on the enemy team have managed to pull off the easiest coordination in the game. And if you do somehow manage to win the duel, the Mercy just rezzes the Ashe and you're back to square one. The input necessary to win that engagement is disproportionate, and is more likely than not going to result in players just arguing with their teams in many instances because one person wants a pocket, and some genius says "Well just kill the Mercy", as if she isn't standing behind two dimensional barriers half a planet away damage boosting and rezzing for free. One engagement requires significantly more skill than the other, and I assure you it is NOT the Mercy's.
@xvcynical5701
10 ай бұрын
Probably the best description of fighting a pocket I've ever read
@drphdmd7064
10 ай бұрын
The training wheels stuff about Moira is dead on. She's the reason why I stuck with the game. It allowed me to get value while focusing on game sense, and once I topped out on her, which was VERY quickly, I switched to Doomfist. Because of my time as Moira, I learned the mechanical skill aspect last, and now that I play Doom, I see a lot of success since I learned how to read the game already, and now I just focus on mastering the mechanics of the most difficult tank in the game.
@jasonmension3979
10 ай бұрын
True but that also means the devs shouldnt be trying to make her more viable higher up, she needs to stay in silver and gold and I think she could have some relocation of her power to better set that, because it also works the other way where a few of my friends never wanted to learn ow because getting past moira was to much of a laughable pain in the ass when they can go learn another game where their opponents dont have training wheels.
@drphdmd7064
10 ай бұрын
@@jasonmension3979 I would love to see a change to Moira that makes her more viable at higher ranks, but with their recent track record I don't have faith in them.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
swear the training wheels can get you all the way up to masters 💀
@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong
10 ай бұрын
@@Bighoodiekid Because you can. There are people who backline ratted their way up to gm with moira one trick. This is really enabled by the fact that Kiriko existed back then, anything they did to shutdown your teams push kiriko suzu fucking denied that while you were ratting their kiriko, forcing her to engage in dueling a moira that can self heal on hit, throw a healing orb to herself or damage orb to chase kills faster.
@jasonmension3979
10 ай бұрын
@@drphdmd7064 in order for that, they would have to remove her auto aim, I actually personally love everything about moira except her primary like her movement is so fun to use but unlike all other heros with fun movement, she has no skill shots or things to make the movement hard to use, leaving her movement as this brain dead, almost get out of jail free card with little to no risk, unlike genji or echo where their movement is an escape ot engage tool and to engage with the movement is a risk as you could fk up your shots which wastes half your kit and set up time while moira physically cant miss, making her ti boring for my liking but you add a good fun primary and I would be a moira main 😂
@godzillaenthusiast9687
10 ай бұрын
Putting Bogur on here is fucking hilarious to me lol hoping he acts as a midigator from his experience on both sides
@alfonsovelazquez9565
10 ай бұрын
I feel like spilo should have been in this one as well, especially since he always seems to keep a neutral ground on most things, and to bring up topics from the previous "debate"
@diamonshade7484
10 ай бұрын
I thought he would have been but he will probably be in the tank vs support vid
@alfonsovelazquez9565
10 ай бұрын
@@diamonshade7484 fair enough
@vopcracker3193
10 ай бұрын
Especially with Eskay completely dismissing Tank complaints and most of the pod preferring 5v5 gameplay. Both of those opinions completely undermine their credibility with how resoundingly opposed they are to what the playerbase complains about on a consistent basis. Spilo is the only guest on the pod I've seen to acknowledge BOTH of these failures in Overwatch 2 while providing valuable context and productive conversations around solutions.
@TheRealKush420
10 ай бұрын
Why isn’t ML7 here?!? 🤨🤨🤨
@PurpleMoon799
10 ай бұрын
i was wondering too i would love to hear his takes
@erikhendrickson59
10 ай бұрын
As good as Baptiste is right now, I still think Kiriko is the strongest Support at *_MOST_* Ranks. Her Swift Step allows for lower-ranked player to negate serious positioning mistakes and at higher ELO it allows for extremely aggressive *_intentional_* positioning that no other Hero is afforded. And all that without even mentioning Suzu~
@jamesburnett3594
10 ай бұрын
No it's definitely Illari. She's destroying on the ladder right now with the highest winrate in the game across all ranks while also having a very high pick rate. She can simply stick a pylon around a corner with her whole team grouped up around it, dish out a bunch of damage, and it's very hard for many characters to deal with. Many characters are simply incapable of destroying the pylon. And if it doesn't get destroyed, her output is way too much. Kiriko is strong but she is not dominating the same way. She has weaknesses like heroes without easy head hitboxes, flying heroes, etc. Her tp takes more skill than it used to because the range is reduced and less consistent/fast. Yeah at lower ranks you can just tp to anyone and probably be safe or make it work. But you have to be a lot more careful at higher ranks over your positioning and who you tp to. There's a high skill ceiling to using it well, similarly to how there is with Tracer blinks. And you aren't going to be putting out the same kind of stats consistently on Kiriko with damage and healing. The main problem with her is suzu, which could be on a longer cooldown imo. But that alone is not making her op.
@user-et3xn2jm1u
10 ай бұрын
Illari is stronger because she just fuckin kills you, but Kiriko is a worse design. It is sooo easy to play Kiriko. Whenever I'm in danger, no I'm not. Whenever my team is in danger, no they're not. Meanwhile I'm throwing quarters in the kunai slot machine and fishing for jackpot dinks. I usually play other supports, and whenever I hop on Kiri, it's like why am I doing all this work on other supports when I can get the same results with my brain off on Kiri.
@Bighoodiekid
10 ай бұрын
kiri’s winrate is the worst in most ranks tbh
@jamesburnett3594
10 ай бұрын
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Kiri is better hero design than Illari. Her difficulty and effectiveness scales with skill. At low ranks you just existing is often enough and no one is good enough to kill you with all your cooldowns. So I understand that perspective but that's not what it's like everywhere. When you get to higher ranks, you have to be pretty on point to bring value greater than what some of the other good supports like Bap, Ana, Illari, etc. can offer. If you were to just healbot vs. an Ana or something, the Ana will put out more value over time if they are competent. Kiriko is cool design because her value comes from her mobility and the flexibility you have rather than the raw numbers. Tp also just has so many creative uses and potential. Compare that to Illari who's design is just to camp behind walls and shoot. Kiri enabled a diversity of compositions that made the game healthy. She's good, but not everyone can use her the way that gets the most value. Illari just slows the game down for everyone and only rewards a specific playstyle.
@ZombieNinjaTurtle
10 ай бұрын
Not really, cause at low ranks your teammates all have shit positioning and are just afk on the objective so your swift step is basically useless and would only ever teleport you like 2m away. Kiri has a poor win rate, especially at low ranks where people can’t aim with her
@zay7537
10 ай бұрын
See what I don’t like about the beginning of this debate is that they are so close but so far off. Like at 43ish mins Emii is saying that the supports are doing so much with close to zero downside to them but doesn’t acknowledge that, that in itself is the issue! For example zen he does high damage but in turn his movement is limited. But kiriko for example has high movement the smallest hitbox and can two hit any 200 hp character from any distance with ZERO downside. As a game every time a new support character comes out they are only getting things that buff support with zero downside like illari she places her turret off cooldown and does 75 hp a shot with movement and high healing, Where’s the downside to her…. Exactly there’s none and that’s the problem with support the downsides to characters are slowly disappearing and they are starting to become better dps
@Nick-ki9hh
9 ай бұрын
Hearing Eskay basically say “just play Zarya” is really frustrating because supports can have like 5-6 super good heroes but tank have like 2.
@jbeers8408
10 ай бұрын
My main problem with illari's ult is that it is better than most DPS ults. And it is easy to land compared to other ults that can team wipe.
@princekelly3021
10 ай бұрын
Ok now…these drug addict induced takes about supports are crazy. It’s getting out of hand…how many huffs did it take you to think that illari ult is more powerful then an ult like junk tire? Or mei freeze? Or echo copy? Illaris ult can get eaten, cleansed, and can’t go through shields, and it needs to have dmg complied to actually explode
@TheRealKush420
10 ай бұрын
You must be smoking some good shit LMFAOOOOOOOO…. Dva’s DM, Sigma grasp, Shields, That spear spin, cleanse, Trans(Zen ult), Fade, TP, Zarya bubbles, natural cover, and just spreading out from your team…all counter the ult. Seek rehab….
@liluzii2339
10 ай бұрын
They didn’t talk about how anyone with a teleport or fade that gets a status effect on them like sun, ash bomb, most sticky bombs, junker Queen knife, and etc can just use that quick 6 second cooldown ability and cleanse the effect. We can argue that reaper might need it and maybe even Moria but Kiriko definitely doesn’t need it. This would make her have to use cleanse more selfishly and she could still die if she teleported away with one of the previous types of damage on her. Makes it much more fair for other players when fighting kiriko cause you can force suzu faster and she can die easier
@ZombieNinjaTurtle
10 ай бұрын
That’s a really good idea !
@liluzii2339
10 ай бұрын
@@ZombieNinjaTurtle Thnx bro! 🙌🏾
@CanadianCat101
10 ай бұрын
One of the biggest pain points of Kiriko is her TP is unpunshable, same thing was people issue with sombra, Vastly different games but, Apex solved that, abilities that move you or teleports have cast times, if kiriko had a small 0.2-0.4 second cast time where she makes a hand motion to then TP, would make that backline TP strat having to take brain power instead of instant BAM gone, but then would that make her feel bad? Maybe. Same as Immortalities, what if all immorts were all just high damage reductions instead? But that also might be bad because then would it feel bad to Suzu and have someone be burst to death? Or immort field and have everyone die? But it would solve the issue.
@endless_del
10 ай бұрын
there is a tp cast time. i dont remember the number, but it was nerfed a couple seasons ago (not the cast time but when the i-frames start) and since then i've died during tp a lot more frequently (every so often vs never). i personally think kiri tp is fine because it has a range and it's entirely team dependant, unlike translocator which can be placed anywhere and has no range. i play a shit ton of kiri and can confidently say that suzu needs looked at before you touch any other part of her kit. it is WAY too strong of an ability.
@ToniBallheadKuusikorpi
10 ай бұрын
kirko tp does have cast time tho
@charlestothe
10 ай бұрын
Bro you’re listerally describing something that’s in the game. She does prayer hands
@ckamo10
10 ай бұрын
she dos have a cast time, when she puts her hands together that's her cast time. I died many times when I was on very low hp and I tried to tp
@CanadianCat101
10 ай бұрын
@@ToniBallheadKuusikorpi a very short one with no concise wind up
@ROBAKABIGPAPA
10 ай бұрын
Ow players are the only ones who will play a game with literal Rock paper scissor mechanics, and 1 button invulnerable ability and use the word "Tactical" in the same breath
@LasertechStudios3142
10 ай бұрын
2:05:00 The most annoying thing about playing against Ana is how she can sleep you around corners due to its hitbox and ping interactions.
@sonderbain
10 ай бұрын
Honestly, sleep dart feels like a semi truck hitting you a mile away sometimes.
@ivanych6231
10 ай бұрын
@@sonderbainit is. I compared it with a hanzo logs and... the arrows are much thinnier. So if you (for support mains) die to a hanzo, it's not lucky, you're just dogshit player.
@dire3648
10 ай бұрын
39:00 KarQ Just pointed out the biggest problem with supports. "I cant do anything to the enemy team" YOUR A SUPPORT you support your team so they can do things to the other team. You shouldnt be able to solo most of the dps roster with ease. Thats not supporting your team thats being another dps.
@heiko2255
10 ай бұрын
In 5v5 the support players got this idea that they should deal similar damage to DPS, no? Youre a SUPPORT, sure youre allowed to do some damage, but 2 tapping 70% of the Heroes with Illari and Kiriko should not be a thing I mean even Bap on release did lots of damage, but atleast it wasnt 2 taps. I would love for 6v6 to come back so that we can atleast compete with these OP supports. (6v6 was always better than 5v5 anyways)
@Backfired
10 ай бұрын
I hate this. So someone like KarQ talks like "Well there are strats". This game cannot be casually played anymore. I don't want to think to play. I want to just chill and have fun. I don't want some gotcha ability to make any alt. useless. I don't want to think this much to play an unbalanced game. OW1 Tank main top 500 back when I played. I can't even play tank because it's miserable. I play support to dps. No balance, tank does nothing, dps is a worse support. Sorry for the rant but shit.... Bring back casual fun. New players aren't binge watching meta how to video's. This game can't be a chill with friends and play. You need to know the meta that changes month by month, know every character, know counters, know abilities, know when to alt, know how to tank as a solo. You need to literally study every aspect of this game or be the reason you lose the game. NOBODY NEW WANTS TO PLAY THIS GAME FOR A REASON. It's not fun. Simply not fun for new players, not fun at all anymore. I can't relax and play. I HAVE TO SWEAT MY EYEBALLS OUT or lose and lose and lose. T500 players shouldn't think what needs nerfs and buffs because half the broken characters don't get played and 75% or more of the players don't think like them.
@J.D.191
10 ай бұрын
We need a tank vs support debate 2 support vs 2 tank players
@ravenwilson6410
10 ай бұрын
That’s OW1 we are in OW2 now 2 supports and 1 tank should work lmao
@vopcracker3193
10 ай бұрын
One year into Overwatch 2 and 5v5 has utterly failed in making the game more engaging to play. Supports buffed at the expense of Tanks has made the game so much more one-dimensional, to the point that counterpicking is NECESSARY to win rather than a unique feature of the game that still required some sort of gamesense to build upon. Every role thinks they are perfectly balanced despite the obvious fact that every role save for Support feels underdeveloped in a 5v5 environment due to the copy-paste nature of the game as a glorified OW1 shop update. 6v6 would solve ALL issues currently plaguing the game, especially since the strong frontline between two Tanks would make effective much more effectively and display immediate value compared to the more deathmatchy feel of Overwatch 2.
@ravenwilson6410
10 ай бұрын
@@vopcracker3193 nigga idc anymore I don’t want your long ass speech if the devs and balance won’t listen what makes you think I will
@vendetasebastian8867
10 ай бұрын
What the Bogur doing tho? I love how Emi blames everything on the DPS role, and of course support players love 5v5, when they have the most to benefit from it. Not to mention the support players whining support is weak and oppressed, and funnier how they nerfed DPS role because dmg boost exist, and devs don't want to properly nerf supports. KarQ defending and shilling for the support role never fails. Can't deal with support mains anymore.
@d4mephisto
10 ай бұрын
eskay: "when im having a bad aim day, i just go support and auto win top 100 games" literally all I needed to hear. the rest of the debate is pointless. that PROVES supports are OP right now. end of story.
@gamabussy
10 ай бұрын
Eskay with the "skill issue!"
@lucan465
10 ай бұрын
All of these problems can lead back to changing to 5v5 format though…
@heiko2255
10 ай бұрын
Support players dont care about that, they have the OP heroes right now so the game is apparently better. If Kiri didnt have Invul and a 35m tp on a 8s CD and 110 Headshot damage If Illari didnt have a healing turret, again 110 Headshot damage and a huge DPS Ult If Weaver didnt have Invulnerability Pull, a huge 100 HP overhealth tree and a pedal that can save him and his teammates from things like grav or other ults then it would look very different, then Supps would complain about 5v5 and it not being fun. Hell, i even see DPS players complain about it, Blizzard should just try 6v6 again, i remember people having passion for this game and being hyped to play, i dont see any of that in 5v5, its just that soulless.
@fireice5443
10 ай бұрын
*Essay warning.* I understand that not every hero is supposed to have the same effectiveness in every situation. I also understand that supports should 100% be able to hold their own in situations where they can be considered a "free pick". The main issue a huge amount of people have is about "support" heroes having completely overpowered parts in their kits, like Suzu, Immortality field (*abilities* that can full counter *Ultimates*) and Nade, or having insane dps, like Illari and Kiriko shots. A very easy fix for the time being is raising the cooldowns on these abilities so they can be used once per fight in average ranks, so per 20-30 seconds or something. It sounds crazy but being able to have 2 immortalities in 1 fight is absolutely absurd. This doesn't mean using an immortality ability from 1 hero twice but also includes having one immortality ability usage from two different heroes. Maybe have an internal cooldown before a target can be affected by a second immortality ability (Let's say you get Suzu'd, you can be in an Immortality field or Lifegrip, but the immortality effect bypasses your character [with the pull effect still going through for lifegrip] for an internal cooldown of 7 seconds. After the 7 seconds, the effects of immortality can be applicable to you again). I personally very much dislike any abilities that can make punishable mistakes unpunishable (Life weavers grasp included). I understand there is some skill to timing it, but being able to give life two times in one fight is so unfair. To better balance these abilities, in my opinion, please get rid of the immortality effect and keep the secondary effects. Suzu = cleanse effects, Lifegrip = reposition, Biotic nade (Negative Immortality: Prevents you to get healed the same way Immortality prevents you to take damage.) effect = reduces heals buy 40% to 70% for a duration of time (let's just say 4-6 seconds) OR lower anti-heal duration/ raise heal boost duration + nerf heal boost from 50% to 30% so it's used more defensively most of the time since an offensive use would be a hard commit and higher risk higher reward (the window to focus the anti-naded target is super small), and this all has more of a "support" feel to it. You can replace Immortality fields effect with an aoe heal which spray heals within the fields range for 3 seconds 70-30 hp/sec depending how close you are to the center + 75 hp/sec overtime of 3 seconds after, and if you have a status effect it cleanses and heals 150 over 5 seconds. This is a random idea I just thought up but my point is, having abilities with mechanics like this is a whole lot more engaging than the simple but extremely effective condition of Immortality. I know this may be an unpopular opinion but I sincerely disagree with the idea of a "support" hero supporting by pressuring to kill or straight up killing targets. Take Kiriko for example, being able to flank, and threaten/get a kill, AND LEAVE, maybe even having an easier time doing so when compared to flank heroes such as tracer or sombra would (Ex. Time to kill = 2 headshots or 1 headshot + bodyshot + melee. Time to kill may be similar to those dps heroes but the simplicity of tapping a few times vs tracking and hitting multiple headshots from super close range is not proportionate in terms of ease of execution AND having an infinitely easier disengagement since pathing is not a concern with wall-phasing teleportation). Then you have Illari, who can out DPS a DPS character at HIS OWN (old 35 meters) range?! (Cassidy). Supports are more than welcome to be able to defend themselves but being able to 2 headshot tap kill most of the overwatch roster is oppressively offensive and doesn't fit as a "defense" at all. I don't care that a Support hero can 3 shot bodyshot any 200 HP target, like Illari (75 body shot damage. Yes she 2 bodyshot taps tracer), I just don't think it's fair that a support can do so much burst damage, sure the rate of fire is slow but really? 112.5 x 2 in 2 seconds (You can have a charged shot, see a target, get a headshot and wait for next shot and fire, which all takes around 2 seconds) At range?? Solution: Kiriko- Buff Kunai bodyshot damage to 55 and make the headshot multiplier 1.8 so a headshot does 99. Baptiste- Nerf Bullet damage to 24. Etc. Ofc I haven't tested any of this but for anyone who was patient and interested enough to read all this, I'm sure you would enjoy being able to be a lot more engaged in these kinds of chnages, where active thinking becomes more rewarding and the difference is not too much and just enough so that most people can enjoy it. They can be casual players who don't care about these issues nearly as much as some of us do, or, they can be people who really want to see good balancing and the end of frustrating aspects of the game, be it abilities or number tuning for damage, health, cooldowns, etc. I've gone on for like half an hour so I'll stop here, but I just wanted to get a point across from what I've seen and what I've been through, which is: that most people don't enjoy anything in a game that can be seen as oppressive or frustrating to deal with. 2017 player. I've been a bronze, a silver, a gold, a plat, a diamond, a masters, a grandmaster, and I am a top 500 player. I felt what every environment of Overwatch feels like, so I feel what you guys feel. I never forgot that I am a bronze player or that I am a hardstuck plat, and I hope I don't seem like I'm implying I know more than anyone else, I've just been through it all and wanted to say all this to show where I'm at in terms of my understanding of the state of the game. This is all my opinion and my current view. Wish everyone the best.
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
Increasing the cooldown isn't the problem. It's removing some of the aspects of the cooldown. Specific cooldowns should not do three things at once. Suzu should not have immortality. Lamp should not have a set health permanently when attacking someone. Suzu should be a cleanse and it heals. Lamp should be damage mitigation. Why the fuck does one cooldown beat a fucking ultimate.
@uhoh6763
10 ай бұрын
@@VastspartanI think he meant if they were to raise the CDs today and put a CD to prevent Immort chaining, it would bring immediate improvement, at least in lower/mid ranks. You summed up his points well with "shouldn't have 3 effects stacked". I 100% agree with him that invulnerability doesn't belong in the game. It's pretty stupid
@jamesmiddleton8335
10 ай бұрын
whilst listening to this I rage quit from playing dps and decided to play illari instead. Just a better dps experience. But during my dps games I came across a game where the enemy were running lifeweaver kiriko. Every single 1v1 I took got bailed out with immortality, every time the tank went in too far he got immortalised. It's stupid as fuck.
@ZarelidT
10 ай бұрын
Support players are truly the problem. They genuinely don’t think they can do any wrong just by being support. The amount of zens that don’t swap when a sombra murders them or a Moira screaming “it’s not my job to shoot pharah”. The support players don’t realize they can do more they just think I’m support I’m doing the right thing
@gamist8166
10 ай бұрын
I like that svb tried to reintroduce eskays thought of massive hitbox with illari. Ashe feels inferior to her in hitscan potential, and that's insane. I think bogur treating it as skill issue comes from the tank/support perspective insteada dps
@Jae_JETT
10 ай бұрын
Id like to take a second to point out how Eskay stated that the issues tank players are having are either a "Skill issue" or tank choice issue, however later she admitted that heroes like Life weaver being able to pull heroes from ultimate's like Zarya and Sigma is frustrating. This is one of many examples of why playing tank is annoying right now. These abilities are countering our ultimate's. She also stated how she has no issues playing the two strongest tanks as of now. I wish they dove deeper into this but no one brought it up.
@YunethAlwis
10 ай бұрын
I agree, Eskay brought up the two most unfun BUT necessary tanks to play if you can't continue as tank or 'skill issue', which isn't a solution to tanking! Like I would like to use the rest of the heroes too but they are the ones that can't play against these two tanks that they kept bringing up
@paulahrens581
10 ай бұрын
Essays a low level troll
@daringiconoclast6547
10 ай бұрын
Big impact = big cool downs. That's all that needs to happen. Like if suzu had a huge cool down like lamp (maybe you can use it for lesser effects more often but if you save it 30 seconds it gets the full effect it currently has). Illari healbulb probably should have less range and maybe not Regen health (then it might be ok to have a smaller cool down depending on how much you reduce the range)
@batm4025
10 ай бұрын
lifeweaver annoys the enemy tank and the ally tank. I can't even count how many times a tank stared at me after I pulled them from death
@artyedmond8972
10 ай бұрын
If you pick supports with multiple get out of jail free cards it doesn't matter how much you try to bait them out. You bait one out the other support uses theirs, when that's out you go in, and that first support uses their second get out of jail free card, you try to move on that, the second support uses their get out of jail free card. When you finally get that cooldown out that first supports get out of jail free card is back up. COMBINE that with tanks like Orisa and Zarya who also have get out of jail free cards. They just live forever.
@jamesburnett3594
10 ай бұрын
I think it's more that the dive characters suck right now. You get less opportunities to dive and you aren't as much of a threat. The support abilities haven't changed a ton but we've seen metas where dive was viable still. In fact some supports like Kiriko and Lucio enable dive. It's only after Illari was introduced and the tank/DPS metas got messed up that dive went away rather than it being from supports like Kiriko. Dive worked before because you had more fights to work with to bait out the cooldowns and because the current best supports are Illari and Bap. Now the game is so slow paced that you get very few fights to bait out cooldowns and the poke battles last too long. People are pointing fingers at the wrong supports when the answer is quite clear--Illari is very obviously the most broken character right now.
@cyviraceramirez6808
10 ай бұрын
as a diamond support player, i greatly agree that most support players are very op, illari can team kill easily if they have very good aim, good LW player outheals everyone, and if dps aren't carrying, supports step-up all the time when the damage is lacking..
@alfonsovelazquez9565
10 ай бұрын
I only disagree with lifeweaver. Outdamaging his heal is not hard
@TheDevos1
10 ай бұрын
I’m diamond support too, if DPS is trash, then you’re most likely losing I can’t lie. Like yes illari can step up, but somebody has to pick up the healing for being out damaged.
@AngrySecs
10 ай бұрын
@@TheDevos1illaris whole thing is being able to just throw her pylon and essentially not worry about healing anyway. The pylon can pick up that slack.
@mitchell7523
10 ай бұрын
i find it funny that Bastion, Sombra, Ana, and Baptiste r like 80% or more of the problems tbh i think we could change Bastion, Sombra, an Baptiste but Ana is the hardest one to change in my mind because i truly don’t know how to change her abilities and i’ve thought about it for a long time. i think with Bastion they need to change turret mode and instead of a full on turret he should just get 2 of his normal primary gun and a lil movement speed buff and i mean a small walk speed buff like 8-10% and when he does he can shoot 2 of his mortar but of course they should change how much damage the mortar shot does since now he will have 2 of them now. Sombra i believe will always be a problem till the end of time i think Evelynn from league of legends taught us this, anytime a person can be 100% invisible its kinda nuts but my solution is instead of invisibility she should be more like Mirage i believe is the character from Warframe where instead of going invisible she could have an ability that makes multiple images of her that would be around her which still gives a Hacking/Cloaking vibe of a character and i believe hack would be fine since you can actually see her at all times but now u have to hit the right target and if you do she just uses her TP to go back to safety. Now Baptiste i believe is just his mobility i actually believe his immortality is fine but imagine if you will its much like soldier putting down his heal but imagine if soldier could fly vertically afterwards i just think Baptiste has too much utility to not dying, mobility, and being able to do a lot of damage and its insane. Ana i think having sleep is 100% fine but the only change they could make is her anti heal Nade ability should maybe get an increased radius explosion by a small amount but now its a puddle on the floor that if ur on it causes anti heal or more heal depending if your an enemy or ally but now if you walk out of it u no longer get the debuff or buff. i think all of these changes would be very realistic would love to hear any thoughts on any of these ideas i mentioned - btw i’m just a normal guy who loves strategy team based games and is sick and tired of games not being balanced or at least thinking ahead of what each ability is actually doing in the current game.
@leocall7173
10 ай бұрын
You're never going to be able to make a defensive support skill not feel bad to play against. That's the point. You can argue that with every defensive skill, mercy rez, lamp, pull, cleanse, they all feel bad to play against because that's what their job is. If I want to make a meaningful contribution as a support that isn't an offensive play like a sleep, an anti, or damage, it's going to annoy the enemy team. Hell, you could even say healing as a whole "isn't fun to play against". Because it's not fun if I'm trading with an enemy and a lifeweaver and mercy pop out and just heal them back up to full. People need to get over it. Support's job is to make the enemy frustrated by enabling and keeping their team alive.
@ClaraBennett
10 ай бұрын
One thing that I think doesn’t really get talked about is the ways in which the supports have taken over some aspects of the tank role. I think Samito mentioned this in the 6v6 debate in passing, but it wasn’t expanded upon at least in the portion that I watched. Personally, I think Suzu is a really cool design because it can perform the same function as a barrier or DM-like ability in terms of negating a specific cooldown or denying a final blow, but it doesn’t add a lot of HP that needs to be shot through like a second shield tank would. I believe a big part of why support felt so bad for a lot of players in the beta is that the second tank was removed, the DPS were fast, and there weren’t any new supports to bring those offtank-denial capabilities. Bap and Zen got buffs that went in that direction, like the big insta-heal on Regen Burst (which I don’t really like but does give the ability more “peeling” power) and Zen’s Snap Kick passive, but we didn’t have Mercy’s super-flexible movement or any of the new support heroes with their new denial abilities. In OWL, Tracers had just ridiculously high Pulse Bomb attach rates in the first half of 2022 regular season (played on OW2 early builds, no Kiriko yet) because there were no DVas around to eat them and there weren’t a ton of other options for counterplaying a Tracer with excellent Pulse Bomb mechanics. You saw Anas saving their Nanos specifically to counter Pulse Bomb, which never would have been seen as optimal play before, since that gives up a lot of the offensive potential of the ult. The introduction of Suzu and Life Grip added more counterplay to Pulse Bomb sticks, but their availability is _so_ much lower than DM. Pulse Bomb is not the only relevant ability here. Obviously, anything that can be blocked by a shield or eaten by a DM-like ability became more free to use when the second tank went away, which included Ana’s abilities. It may have felt bad to play Ana in pubs, but in pro play it was all Ana all the time for quite a while. I think it makes sense for support abilities to offer replacements for some of those counterplay options (again, _without_ denying so much neutral damage output like tank abilities do), otherwise some of those abilities become auto-win buttons. Even if it requires a lot of execution skill to land them, like Pulse Bomb, it still feels bad if you’re on the receiving end and all you can do is hope that they miss. I get that it feels different to have a play reversed by a reactive ability rather than to have it denied by an ability used in anticipation, and maybe there’s something they can do to alleviate that (slower Suzu travel speed? make the Life Grip bubble breakable?). But I do think that it is necessary for some of that play-denial counterplay capacity from the second tank to shift elsewhere. The more that I think about it and the more that I read and hear other people’s thoughts on the topic, the more convinced I am that the actual “problem” is weakness in the DPS role. The off-tank used to have duties to protect and enable the main tank and cover their weaknesses, but now the tanks have more versatility in their kits and self-peeling, so they can do that part themselves. The offtanks also shared in the absorption and denial of key abilities, and in some cases backline protection, but the supports are now more self-peeling and have taken on more capacity to counterplay those high-impact abilities with utility, so that function is covered. I feel like the part of that offtank role that the DPS were meant to take is being able to contest and hold space on alternate angles, but they didn’t actually get any tools to allow them to do that better than in OW1, when they had a second tank to reinforce their angles for them. Or, rather, they _did_ get a tool to do that better (the passive speed buff), but it felt so oppressive in the version of the game where the second tank was gone and the compensations for that in the support role hadn’t fully come through yet (and the players simply weren’t accustomed to playing in a super self-sufficient self-peeling kinda way) that it was taken away. The current passive not only has a really disparate impact across heroes (poor Hanzo), it also requires the DPS to do their job _without_ the help of a passive and gives them a small (and barely perceptible) buff _afterwards_. It’s a “win more, a little bit” tool instead of a tool that makes it easier to do their job in the first place. The tank passive helps them to take and hold space without being pushed out of it so easily and without worrying about feeding so much ult charge. The support passive allows them to look for more impactful uses of their abilities and be less dependent on each other for survival, so that they can effectively support teammates who may be spread around the map and even take their own angles. The current DPS passive is such a nothingburger in comparison. All of the focus with the speed passive was on how it enabled some heroes to apply really relentless pressure to the enemy backline, but speed also has defensive utility, which I feel the DPS desperately need. Like, in general I think it makes sense for the most lethal heroes to also be the most fragile and to need support to really shine, but right now I feel like the DPS are way way too dependent on teammate help, especially from the supports. For example, a backline-type DPS is generally just screwed if the enemy tank gets too close to them unless they get help, but a little more movement speed could make disengaging more consistent and buy time to get that help. And if you’re trying to duel a support with self-peeling capabilities and are depending on help from another player in order to be able to last long enough to force out those abilities and actually have a chance to get the kill, that’s always going to be less consistent for you, right? It’s much easier for the support to pay attention to their own needs and reserve whatever abilities they need to survive than to juggle everything their teammates are doing and always be in position and ready to help when a teammate needs it. I think it’s easy to experience X as negative and just have the knee-jerk reaction that “not X” or “less X” is the solution, but very little is ever that simple. Maybe supports need some more tweaks, but I think the deeper problem is that they have a lot of tools to defend themselves and the role that should be able to keep them in check and apply the pressure to force mistakes in those defensive resources doesn’t have enough tools to do so.
@sethescope
7 ай бұрын
I really appreciate your nuanced view and willingness to explain your thinking! I still don't know exactly how I feel about support balance as a whole, and you've definitely given me some important bits to think more deeply about :) I do think you're more likely than not right, in some respect, about DPS needing something extra. I'm not sure what it would be, I don't know what would make the most sense, but I do think you're onto something.
@altokia2724
10 ай бұрын
Would be cool to have the tank, dps, and support guests come up with arguements and have a full, professional, 3-way debate about the state of certain characters/the roles in general, with the devs maybe fact checking and providing insights where necessary. Tbh, i can totally see that being sort of the final evolution of this format, maybe in person at an ow/blizz convention live. Way in the future, but could be cool to see
@nufcjoker9057
10 ай бұрын
Im sick of seeing high elo players on n the debate , I would préfère hearing someone from the majority of the player base, we don’t get enough console player either because they are the majority of the player base by a far margin
@toastfy
10 ай бұрын
@@nufcjoker9057Why would anyone watch the podcast if a Bronze was giving their opinion?
@nufcjoker9057
10 ай бұрын
@@toastfy that’s a legit question, I just don’t always want to hear top 500 gm side of the story .. because a lot of there pain and frustration doesn’t even applies to the maj of the player base , it would be interesting in my opinion to hear what most people are thinking that play the game every day but are not the top 0.1% of the player base , ideally it’s not a content creators so we don’t get bias fans , just my opinion doesn’t mean that I’m wrong or right it’s just my opinion no hate intended good day
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
@@nufcjoker9057 Have yeatle on
@eyedontlose8836
10 ай бұрын
@nufcjoker9057 go in ur lobby and ask your teammate in gamechat if that's the case
@Samuraithekid
10 ай бұрын
When SVB said "taste the sunrise! What's the su.... aaaaaah!" I died laughing
@nukexd6120
10 ай бұрын
The thing is, of course there is Meta, but dps u can kind of play whatever u like the most and have fun, so does support, u can pick whichever u like the most and enjoy a good game, and that’s how it’s supposed to be since it’s a VIDEO GAME, it is supposed to be fun, but u don’t have that with tank, u r mostly forced to play a single character, smth u don’t like or enjoy in order to win a game, so it isn’t fun at all, which should be the main aspect of the game, to have fun.
@rezq9109
10 ай бұрын
any support main saying it's not a power role is coping hard rn
@adarshvinodkumar6333
10 ай бұрын
I think high skill high value supports are fine and support felt really good until LW came out and got hyper buffed. You stack the insane low skill healing and immortality of LW with the fact that he has really strong self sustain you’re looking at a super self sufficient and efficient support that can deny anything that the enemy team does. Same with mercy res just undoing the kill that your team spent so much time and cooldowns trying to take down as well as her easy and reliable healing cuz it makes her too strong for the amount of skill it takes to play her.
@niggachu420
10 ай бұрын
Coping rn ? Lmao yea getting to master and GM is coping 🤣
@ClaraBennett
10 ай бұрын
1:01:22 While it’s true that occupying the attention of both supports for an extended period of time can be really valuable when timed correctly, that value is really challenging to directly perceive. I do that kind of thing a lot with Moira, and I think it’s actually easier to perceive the value because I’m doing it with a low-mechanical-skill hero, so it’s easier for me to keep an ear out and watch the killfeed and see all the enemies that are dying because I bottled up both of the enemy supports in a small room and am not letting them out. A lot of the actual tanks that can get value this way require a lot more attention onto mechanics and probably wouldn’t be able to perceive that value so easily. A lot of people have been saying stuff like that tanks should get resistance against all negative status effects, not just sleep and knockbacks. I liked that idea at first, but now I’m worried that that would simply make tanks feel uninteractable. So, maybe instead the tanks could get some more-visible benefit for absorbing those negative effects, like maybe a little bit of overhealth or something. That way, the counterplay options are still there and can be effective in the right circumstances, but there would be more of a cost to using spamming CC on the tank. It wouldn’t have made a difference for that Doomfist clip since they didn’t actually land any negative status effects onto him, but it would have in SVB’s Zarya clip. Given that the need to force out abilities seems like a necessary consequence of Overwatch’s general design, I feel like making that value feel more direct could ease a lot of the friction. Turn something that can be fairly passive, low-visibility value (absorbing abilities and surviving, so that teammates can then attack unimpeded) into a tool that can be used more actively for yourself. _Edit:_ I really don’t know how the game could better reinforce the value of tying up all of the enemy team’s healing resources, but it would be really cool if they could figure that out somehow. 1:02:44 I think SVB is right that “it’s a feeling thing”, and tank value has always been the most challenging to consistently perceive. It’s part of the reason that I stopped playing tank, because I felt like I needed to be on my game and playing well to even tell if I was playing well, if that makes sense? When I wasn’t playing well, it was hard to see where I was going wrong, because if I’d been able to perceive where I was losing value I probably wouldn’t have been losing it there.
@walls0cket677
10 ай бұрын
Eskay was spitting until she said tanks dont have rhe problems they outlined on the last podcast, then immediately said all she was getting value on was Zarya and Orisa. That's the point, 80% of the tank lineup physically can't do anything in 95% of all matchups.
@blackfang0815
10 ай бұрын
Playing devil's advocate for Suzu, because I'm a Kiriko main: A lot of people say Suzu does too much, because it cleanses, heals, and does invuln. If that's the issue, remove the heal. If you remove the invulnerability, it'll become straight trash. How many abilities in the game are there that can be cleansed? The less there are, the more likely a cleanse will become literally useless, while the more there are, the less impactful being able to cleanse debuffs will feel. Alternatively, increase the cooldown a little (although a lot of people kept referring to it as a "short" cooldown, vs Life Grip's almighty "long" cooldown... of 2 seconds longer). I actually don't think this is the change that needs to be made, though. Imo, the real issue with Support is that healing and damage is too high all around. Lower the healing, and Suzu will become less impactful, because the problem with .7 seconds of immortality is that's about how long it takes for characters to be healed up with a good team. Lowering healing will make individual plays on DPS and Tank feel much more gratifying and plentiful, so those moments that are stolen by protection abilities won't hurt so hard.
@TheRealKush420
10 ай бұрын
You ate this up, I have nothing but respect for you right now. Thank you for having some type of education level unlike these tanks. Means a lot to me (coming from a fellow kiri main) 🥹🥹🥹
@lone4896
10 ай бұрын
people who play all roles say supports are OP people who play only supports are defensive and says they are not OP well, there you have it, enough said
@jacobkelly1653
10 ай бұрын
I definitely think you should have someone who mains each role and eskay again because she mains all roles and had to leave early, just because each person that mains a role without realizing dismiss complaints from roles they think is annoying. Imo
@sergiohenrique3551
10 ай бұрын
Yeah, people who majorly play one role get two tunnel visionned with the balance problema.
@DORF-sz2zn
10 ай бұрын
havent finished yet, but an issue i see in all this as a tank player is, I have to swap constantly and get countered by the enemy supports cc or other abilities. however the adjacent is not the same, supports never have to switch to get value. all tanks are forced into playing orisa/zarya in this current meta and cannot play the rest of the roster, which is unfun, hog and winstion are entirely out, and the rest of the tanks do not provide enough value to compete with the top 2 tanks right now, i contribute a lot of this to the interacts zarya and orisa have with supports vs the rest of the tanks in the game
@NightcoreNewbie
10 ай бұрын
I don't like Eskay's take in the beginning saying it's a tank skill issue when she says directly after she plays Orisa or Zarya. Those 2 tanks are the only ones who can counter all the cc effectively and still be able to output damage. Most other tanks don't have that kind of utility. I bet if she played all the other tanks long enough, she wouldn't say it's a skill issue because every game has bastion/sombra or mei and will delete most of the other tanks.
@Vastspartan
10 ай бұрын
Yup. They received massive buffs while the other tank line up are left to die.
@b23beatz
10 ай бұрын
As a gm1 tank I completely agree with eskay as a tank player the DPS choices are more of a problem then supports for me. Bastion mei sym enables brawl so heavily to the point Orisa /Zarya /sigma is really the only thing I can play against that and it's made tank really boring
@Alex_Aramayo
10 ай бұрын
I've heard dps mains says Dps is the least impactful role💀
@sethescope
7 ай бұрын
@@Alex_Aramayoto be fair, the people most likely to say a role is the least impactful are the people who main that role. theyre not necessarily objective about their role lol
@MohammedHassan-tv3vr
10 ай бұрын
We needed Sam on this one too, considering he did play pro, as a support. Plus, he usually has the best takes. I know he did come out and say that he didnt have the best argument for 6v6 regarding the entire player base. Maybe we just need more slots 😅.
@InfernoZX5
10 ай бұрын
SVB probably didn't wanna oversaturate the videos with the same people.
@demifolk8940
10 ай бұрын
hes having different people so we get more viewpoints, sam can come over after all this role discussions. its been very interesting seeing all the different viewpoints
@defaultdan7923
7 ай бұрын
the thing that people forget with mercy when climbing is that sure, mechanically she isn't very hard, but game sense wise? in an ideal world, you just hold blue beam on a dps and win. then you remember what game your playing and in what elo, and realize that not everybody can take full advantage of blue beam, realize that your other support can't top up the whole team, etc. the margin for impacting the game is surprisingly slim, because you are dependent on your teammates. it is very much not "free elo".
@kwehst
10 ай бұрын
36:00 THIS, these are abilities that counter entire ults - they that take ages to earn but lose to a 10-20sec CD? even if tanks have these abilities as well, there's only one of them now! and they're using them to protect 4 other teammates! there are simply twice as many support abilities to worry about, and they can protect each other in an infinite loop (see: super's winston clip) plus everyone's hyperfocused on the 1 tank, or at least tracking them at all times (there's only 1) so of course they're eating every CC on cooldown. simply having 2 targets to split the threat is a huge deal EDIT: damnit bogur goes on to say basically what i just did lol
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