Very good explanation: A few more factors I would add to this discussion are 1) Effective Target size (aspect) 2) bottom type (hardness) 3) sea state all play a factor in active effectiveness as well. My opinion is that this new design will significantly reduce Active Target visibility in all environments when compared to similar conventional submarine examples.
@SonB288
3 жыл бұрын
I presume this is the same idea you referred to recently when discussing the Astute's bow? If that was the goal I wonder why Astute and Trafalgar didn't continue the bow chine all the way down their sides. Difficulty mounting the flank array maybe?
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
Hi mate can you do a video on Scorpene submarines please
@watcherzero5256
3 жыл бұрын
@@SonB288 Couple of things strike me on this question, the chine does end exactly where the flank arrays begin, that may have been a compromise where they focused on frontal aspect stealth for approaching a target. Second the torpedo tubes in the Astute are right at the side edge, there isnt any internal space given over to outer hull shaping beyond the pressure hull. Finally the Chine is exactly the same location as the floor of the upper deck, it might be a reinforcement strut to redistribute some of the squeezing away from that particular location (and the same location the forward superstructure) and add increased structural strength.
@christianjunghanel6724
2 жыл бұрын
I like your channel keep it up what is your opinon on the F 126 is it any good ?
@mtumeumrani376
2 жыл бұрын
One thing I'd like to point out and what i don't know if you deliberately omitted or missed: the HMS Astute appears to exhibit this very same feature, by about 20yrs. In addition, like astute, subs with this angled feature have a tendency as Astute, to have a slower design speed; because of the hydrodynamics of a angled hull over a teardrop design. Just speculation btw, not a professional.
@labschi
2 жыл бұрын
As far as I know: anechoic tiles were first (to my knowledge) used in Germany during WW 2. Called "Alberich" after a dwarven king in german mythology, it was developed in 1931 and applied to multiple submarines in 1941 🙂
@ramal5708
2 жыл бұрын
Exactly but they were removed because it caused some kind of problems with the sub
@labschi
2 жыл бұрын
@@ramal5708 the coating wasn't removed, Germany just hadn't enough resources. Only few subs were equipped with Alberich.
@kreterakete
2 жыл бұрын
Alberich was super cool.
@Br1cht
2 жыл бұрын
@@labschi No, they had problem with the glue, the tiles started to fall off. I believe that they finally fixed that in late -44 but then it was too late and the Anglo menace triumphed;)
@texasranger24
Жыл бұрын
I mean everything from 1920 to 1970 can be summarized by "we had the best German scientists and engineers". Nuclear weapons were developed by a lot of German scientists in exile in the US. The space race? The German V2 rocket engineers picked up by the US vs. the German V2 rocket engineers picked up by the USSR.
@Rorschach1024
2 жыл бұрын
You can use existing biological noise as the source for a semi-active sonar in which you look for shadows using passive sonar and the more angles you can use to look at the target you will be able to better develop your target location depth and speed..
@MusikCassette
2 жыл бұрын
I think the sharp angles in the early stealth plain have more to do with the difficulty to calculate the radar reflection rather than that they are particular good for that. Newer stealth air crafts are more curved.
@Br1cht
2 жыл бұрын
Water is more complicated than air.
@MusikCassette
2 жыл бұрын
@@Br1cht What are you trying to say?
@jintsuubest9331
4 ай бұрын
To an extend. There is also the advancement in ram that allow the uses of less stealthy geometry.
@tranquoccuong890-its-orge
2 ай бұрын
@@MusikCassette i guess he meant 8:38 there is the thing with the thermocline layer (the layer between the warm surface water and the cold deep water) and different layers of seawater too, as sound waves can be diffracted between the surface and the thermocline, or be reflected from the thermocline back to the depth
@colinmacdonald1939
2 жыл бұрын
Just a note to say that the classic angular shape of the F-117 was almost entirely down to 1970/80 computing power. The next stealth aircraft, the B-2, was far less angular and the modern F-35 not angular at all. My point is simply that blocky angles does not necessarily equal stealth.
@farisshaikh1026
3 жыл бұрын
Wonderful Presentation Mr. Sutton. Thank You and Godspeed.
@anthonyburke5656
3 жыл бұрын
Few people realise that weapons designers have “fashion fads”, this is related to sales, I.e. what they can sell and “demand” what the higher ups (superior officers and politicians) want. THEN, there is the corruption factor, both overt corruption I.e. some one gets money to make a decision or covert I.e. some one or some group gets a benefit (free holidays, women, political donations, relatives jobs etc).
@JohnJ469
2 жыл бұрын
The Navies around the world are finally waking up. In the book "Skunkworks" by Ben Rich it said they did make a quick model and gave it a try. It had a sonar reflection (IIRC) 1/100th that of a normal sub. The USN response was "Submarines are round".
@hint0122
Жыл бұрын
My question is if it would work as far as a pressure hull
@IntrusiveThot420
Жыл бұрын
@@hint0122 real question from a plane nerd: why would that matter? If the ship is sufficiently hard to detect, then it can simply sit at shallower depths without caring, right?
@InsufficientGravitas
Жыл бұрын
@@IntrusiveThot420 There may have been issues when it comes to the body creating hydrodynamic noise. basically the fear was likely that the body would induce turbulent flow in the surrounding air, making noise that can be picked up on passive arrays.
@zoolkhan
2 жыл бұрын
,,, and lets not forget, that the angular hullshape is beeing combined with the sound absorbing coating. One does not exclude the other.
@glynmozzie2143
3 жыл бұрын
The Astute's seem to have some angles in their design.
@user-lh1ef1st9k
3 жыл бұрын
sure u boat did 😂😆😂😆😂😉😂
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
Thank BAE
@phil20_20
2 жыл бұрын
I figured out a "Stealth" design over twenty years ago, but the problem is the extra turbulence created by the angular hull. You can still detect it with passive sonar.
@jb678901
Жыл бұрын
Yes, agreed! Hydrodynamics would definitely play a big part insofar as operating envelope/efficiency, too. Clearly, screws would be OUT in favor of specially shrouded propulsors (or even magneto hydrodynamic propulsion...the "caterpillar"). Also, I would imagine a stealth boat would have to be exceptionally well-trimmed to avoid deployment and use of control plane surfaces (e.g. retractable bow planes). I am not convinced this will be viable with large boats (modern nukes, etc.).
@jb678901
Жыл бұрын
Some other factors that make stealth on submerged vehicles quite different from the challenge of stealth with aircraft. For example, longer wave lengths, spherical spreading, cylindrical spreading, SVP and convergence zones, etc.
@jeffcauhape6880
2 жыл бұрын
Just had an interesting thought: If the stealth sheath over the hull had an embedded material in it angled to reflect sonar, you could go back to having a smoother, less turbulent exterior shape by relying on the angles of the embedded material to reflect sonar rather than the physical shape of a homogeneous material.
@paulh2468
2 жыл бұрын
As I understand it, stealth jets already do this. They have angled ‘echo chambers’ inside the jet to increase radar deflection. This is one reason why the F35 is much more aerodynamic than the old F111. No doubt, weapons designers will have thought of things long before you and I will.
@jamesperry1358
2 жыл бұрын
That's the principle of metamaterials. But the challenge is always matching the acoustic impedance of the metamaterial to the impedance of the water, because it is at impedance changes that reflections form. If you can get the wave into your metamaterial then you could acoustically "cloak" your submarine by guiding the sound around it. But that is a LOT easier said than done.
@jeffcauhape6880
2 жыл бұрын
@@jamesperry1358 This is probably a dumb question: Does the acoustic impedance change with pressure, or tep, or salinity?
@jamesperry1358
2 жыл бұрын
@@jeffcauhape6880 No idea, I do EM. The physics of wave propagation are very similar between acoustics and EM but I don't know much about acoustic material properties. I think it is mostly a property of temperature but dont take my word for it.
@johns70
Жыл бұрын
One of the big problems with this, and the angled hull, is hydrodynamics. They are similar to aerodynamics, but by no means the same. friction and vortices created by "rough" surfaces or edges might cause sound that is even MORE telling than the sub itself. Kind of why the F-35 is not invisible in rain. The "splatter" can be seen by sensors and infer where the plane is, even when the plane itself does not show. Some thing if a sub is too angled. The edges will cause the water to stir in different ways, that might be picked up easier than from a drop-formed sub.
@Lyndalewinder
2 жыл бұрын
An angular outer casing would be easier to fabricate and the tiles would likely stay on better. When you see a boat return to dry dock for maintenance there are always numerous tiles missing.
@ianmcsherry5254
3 жыл бұрын
You might also add the British Astute class to the list, at least because of the bow section, aft to around where the foreplanes are located, which is noticeably more angular than the hull continuing aft of the foreplanes. Something else that occurs to me is that the future use of UUVs, deployed from larger boats, will permit a "stand-off" active sonar capability, where a relatively expendable asset, at a distance from the mother craft, "goes loud", paints the target, and transmits the data to the attack boat, which can then put in an attack, hopefully leaving it much less vulnerable. At least until torpedo launches are detected.
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
Thank BAE
@marienfeld07
4 ай бұрын
Very good Hutton, previous works by the germans paved the way for today . The example are the models XXI and XXIII and my favorite the Horten 229 jet the first with the available materials of that time.
@JeKramxel
2 жыл бұрын
Great video, as always! Really interesting how technological developments can force a continuous cycle of one technology over the other, being replaced by each other in a loop. That is ongoing until a major breakthrough happens, or a major technological leap is achieved.
@veritypickle8471
3 жыл бұрын
Oo Lampyridae is interesting. Another fine vid, thank you Sir.
@VectorGhost
3 жыл бұрын
that 1980 design looks insanely advanced
@BlackhawkPilot
Жыл бұрын
You should do one on the rubber coating. First developed by the Germans in WWII. Two layers, one with a specific pattern of holes with the signal absorbed by the 2d layer.
@fishdroid
2 жыл бұрын
I like the unscripted style of video. Most of my favorite sites are definitely of the unscripted type. I think that the unscripted style videos, aside from the "organic" aspects, are that they show more technical knowledge on the part of the video creator.
@gustaveliasson5395
2 жыл бұрын
Shoutout to whoever designed the Type-XXIX-H submarine. Bad timing, but apparently a neat idea.
@Sugar_K
3 жыл бұрын
very Kool channel.. more techie than sub brief and none of the 'hoorah' BS
@AdamMGTF
Жыл бұрын
Couldn't agree more. I like sub brief but he's added America on his American, Americanism when it comes to his view points. It colours the information a bit.
@krower11
Жыл бұрын
Same here
@DrewWithington
2 жыл бұрын
Dolphins use active sonar to locate prey. Thus being more stealthy (having facets) would be an evolutionary advantage to a prey species fish. I wonder if this has happened to any extent.
@TimRobertsen
2 жыл бұрын
Really like that your videos are unscripted! It makes them more genuine, and much more enjoyable compared to over-scripted/-narrated videos :)
@robertlaw4073
2 жыл бұрын
What is also true about having more complex "AI" and real-time algorithmic computational capabilities is that these hull shapes will give you a set of possible boat locations back, and by tracking the progress of the signal over time, eventually the "true" boat location should be able to be computed. An implication of this, however, is that there is the possibility for a new kind of "morphic" hull (made from titanium?) that would change shape to send a false progression of signals and lead the tracking boat on a wild goose chase. This should be obvious to the folks working on the problem, but the question is whether any such technology is in development.
@Mork2001
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I was thinking about 'shape shifting' hull too but 'morphic' hull is probably a more accurate description. Could be made of titanium or some new age material being researched.
@beeble2003
11 ай бұрын
@@Mork2001 Why would the outer hull be made of titanium? Regardless of whether it changes shape.
@JoeOvercoat
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! P.S. The planes on the boat have to retract/fold or otherwise be taken out of the geometry or it will be the Achilles Heel of such a boat.
@drferry
2 жыл бұрын
It's not actually artificial intelligence that has enabled these designs, it is computers with more computing power to handle the millions and billions of calculations necessary in a reasonable amount of time to simulate the behavior of sound waves in various densities of water reflecting off of of very complex shapes.
@jimkirk4357
2 жыл бұрын
Curious to know what is between the outer stealth hull and the inner pressure hull. Whatever is in that space is going to dramatically affect performance either adding ballast or buoyancy and of course test depth and crush depth would also be affected. I'm fairly sure the depth performance will be "classified" but an educated guess perhaps?
@Hurricane2k8
2 жыл бұрын
In case of the regular Type 212A submarine there are oxygen and hydrogen tanks for the fuel-cell propulsion between the two hulls.
@MrTangent-8
Жыл бұрын
Is the astute class one of these submarines that are foing for this stealthy pressure hull
@Skankhunter420
2 жыл бұрын
Another great episode! Thank you Mr Sutton!
@todayonthebench
2 жыл бұрын
However. In regards to dispersing the incoming sound in "other directions", will have a big issue of its own. One isn't particularly hidden when wearing all black in a gray room. Nor all white for that matter. Sonar can hear the eco of the sea bed itself, it there is a spot where it clearly is missing, and said spot shows clear signs of parallax error as one moves, then there is clearly something there at a now known depth and position that disperses the expected eco from the sea bed itself. (to actually know the depth and location of the anomaly, we have to have more than 1 sonar, as to get some stereoscopic view of the scene. But on a 100+ meter ship, that shouldn't be all that hard.) So it is a fine balance. Perhaps subs could use phased array piezoelectric transducers covering their exterior, as to both notice the incoming signal (and "perfectly" cancel it out), and mimic a returned eco with appropriate delay for where the sea bed is known to be. But this would be fairly complex system to say the least...
@lqr824
9 ай бұрын
Active sonar was self-defeating to use back when the main place for the sonar was the sub. Nowadays sub drones and stationary sentries are powerful and cheap. I imagine a sub may have "loyal wingmen" doing the pinging.
@joeljacobchandy3838
3 жыл бұрын
Don't worry about too much being unscripted ur videos r brilliant and informative 😁
@Veldtian1
3 жыл бұрын
The Norhtrop 'Tacit Blue' stealth testbed actually looks like a flying stealth submarine hull🤣
@davidste60
2 жыл бұрын
Did you hear about the Lockheed stealth submarine? It never took off. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
@idwalwilliams3713
3 жыл бұрын
F 35 of subs Astute being a good ref
@DM-xb5gt
3 жыл бұрын
brilliant content mate, would you consider doing a wee video on anechoic tiles/SHT?
@johnwang9914
Жыл бұрын
Interesting but the B2 showed that the complex calculations needed for smoothly curved shapes are possible hence there's no longer a need for the flat faceted surfaced of Have Blue and the F-117 Nighthawk. Also, these "stealth" shapes simply deflect the signal away from the emitter so this kind of stealth is ineffective if there is an unpredictable distance between the signal source and the hydrophones (receivers). With radar and planes, it has been suggested that the background radio emissions from cell phone towers be used to illuminate stealth aircraft as the geometry between the towers and the radar receivers would be variable and hence could not be accounted for by the shape alone. Likewise, with a tradition of wireless connected hydrophone buoys and the seismic acquisition techniques of towed hydrophone arrays, such stealth shapes should be easily countered. I would be more interested in meta materials directing the sound around the submarine though what we publicly know of are only effective at specific frequencies and low frequencies at that. Calculations for a selection of frequencies may be computationally difficult perhaps even impossible and the scale of the construction may be very fine for higher frequencies and hence difficult to manufacture.
@jeffnelson2197
2 жыл бұрын
Better than scripted. Always excellent
@leso204
2 жыл бұрын
Anechoic tiles was used on a few U boats during WW2 but the coating had holes/pits of differant diameters , A kriegsmarine survivor said we never was detected by enemy sonar .........
@djolds1
2 жыл бұрын
An excellent overview. Where are the additional hints showing up?
@stuartthornton3027
2 жыл бұрын
Wicked break down thank you. Would you class the Astute as having stealth characteristics?
@GarfieldRex
2 жыл бұрын
Nice video. Question: these shaped hulls reduce the capacity of going deeper? Also, what's the sonar range? Can a submarine avoid detection by doing deeper? Thank you in advance!!
@Daimo83
2 жыл бұрын
Not if unpressurised, although weight could be a factor
@GarfieldRex
2 жыл бұрын
@@Daimo83 thank you!
@doanviettrung
2 жыл бұрын
The sonar source is far away, reflections from shorter panels would miss the sender, so why are they so long?
@frankthompson6503
Жыл бұрын
Would rubber shields give noise propulsion a cover for not being heard. Noise reduction no signature for sonar
@dyllanwoolston5546
3 жыл бұрын
Please make more videos these are great
@saschawagner5167
3 жыл бұрын
Stealth isnt about boncing all signals anyhow since that is imposible no matter how you design your stealth no matter if subs or aircrafts. The goal is to make the return siginal as weak as posible and thus drasistically decreasing the range were the return signial gives the sender any informations. Sonar is a LOTS more complex than radar thogh. besides the metioned surface/seabed bouncing Temperature diference and curents can effect how Sonar behaves. BTW the brits use the same method as the germans in their newer subs......gues they forgot to metioned it to their US allies that this is a thing now. Bit sidenote on arcustic tliles (rubbercoating) For deepdiving subs thease can be quite a problem since the presureddiferences between operational and deepdiving wear them out realtively quickly. Its not like the interatcion beween pasive and active changes thogh. The main factor today are naval drones can be used by any naval ship to deploy sonar boyies in numbers if nessesary were before deployment were limited to a small number of helicopters and dedicated long range aircrafts..
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
boncing?
@iumbo1234
3 жыл бұрын
Is there any way for a submarine to avoid being detected by it's magnetic field?
@HISuttonCovertShores
3 жыл бұрын
They use degaussing
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
@@HISuttonCovertShores what is degaussing?
@positroll7870
3 жыл бұрын
@@goodputin4324 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degaussing But thats not really the full answer here. U212s use a different type of steel, with manganese and molybdenum in the mix. Steels used for U212 are non-magnetic, but not as hard as other allowys used for subs, eg for U214. That means U214 can dive deeper but is easier to detect. Degaussing only comes into effect for the 212s re the engines etc.
@positroll7870
3 жыл бұрын
Similar to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalloy
@abrahamdozer6273
3 жыл бұрын
It's pretty hard to make a non magnetic electric motor and they all have them, nuclear boats included.
@gordonormiston3233
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing this information with us. It’ll be interesting to see what the future holds !
@eymeeraosaka2954
2 жыл бұрын
Good video...Very informative...Technology changing so fast....amazing...
@ryanjones3043
2 жыл бұрын
QUESTION!- does sonar have a different efficacy at different depths??
@jermainerace4156
3 жыл бұрын
I imagine that this will be more relevant to the relatively slow SSKs since they cannot get out of the way of active sonar nearly as effectively, whereas SSNs with their high continuous speed can out maneuver an actively searching contact/torp much better. I mention this, but then watch the USN with it's SSN only fleet decide to stealth everything, but of course we Americans have to make everything stealth.
@goodputin4324
3 жыл бұрын
Who says SSK are slow?
@jermainerace4156
3 жыл бұрын
@@goodputin4324 SSNs and surface combatants.
@positroll7870
3 жыл бұрын
It's more relevant for subs working close inshore and esp in smaller waters. Much easier to hide from active sonar in the depths of the Pacific than in the 50m deep Baltic sea.
@jermainerace4156
3 жыл бұрын
@@positroll7870 I would have thought the opposite, since the shallow water means that any potential long range contacts may have quite a few bounces off the bottom/surface to get to where they're going, losing a little energy each time.
@positroll7870
3 жыл бұрын
@@jermainerace4156 In that sense, yes, and there is also more covering noise. But in restricted waters you can drop a lot of sonar buoys from aircraft to saturate an area, and also use a lot of uuvs launched from the coast to try and flush out any subs. Out in the open ocean nobody has enough such buoys or uuvs available to really go after a silent sub.
@Margarinetaylorgrease
2 жыл бұрын
the best solution to ASDIC is penciling.. Thank you, I'm here all night
@keithtravelrn
2 жыл бұрын
Its not like radar... disappearing isn't hard to do in the ocean.. been in many multimodal group ops while serving on a submarine. and I like the information but simple fact is, the ocean is very noisy and its easy to spot a " silent" zone and boom that is where the sub is located. The only use of angular hulls is to limit radar signature on the surface, underwater it just makes it easier to do some trig to complete target id based on the particular angles of that submarine. Only way to make a stealth sub is to have it repeat the background noise to cover its location as it moves.
@roccoci
2 жыл бұрын
I really enjoy the channel and explanations, thank you!
@Stadtpark90
2 жыл бұрын
5:14 “was stopped when the US found out about it” (- means the US demanded to stop the development... - afaik MBB had only ever built a scale model (I think 1:3) for Radar and Wind Tunnel tests by the time the US intervened)
@Mork2001
2 жыл бұрын
Why was West Germany forced to stop the development of stealth aircraft by its ostensible ally the Americans?
@Stephanthesearcher
2 жыл бұрын
it was bevore 1990 and germany was not a sovereign country and legaly still under allied command.
@Mork2001
2 жыл бұрын
@@Stephanthesearcher okay thanks.
@sanguma
2 жыл бұрын
i would think its also good becouse any anti submarine torpedoes would be looking with active sonar right?
@bagey63
2 жыл бұрын
This is all explained in summary in the 1991 book, Skunk Works, by Ben Rich. Still one of the best books on the subject.
@tobiwan001
2 жыл бұрын
The German stealth aircraft was probably the MBB Lampyridae which apparently was twice as stealthy as the F-117 and was allegedly cancelled in 1987. As this was during the cold war and before German reunification, it might be possible that there was some backroom pressure applied by the US but so far this is just a rumour. MBB and its sucessor company DASA (now part of Airbus) never disclosed why they ended the project. Germany at that time had another fighter jet program ("Jäger 90") also in development, also by DASA that they might have just settled for a more conventional design. The Jäger 90 program was essentially a blueprint and became part of the EF 2000 Typhoon (aka "Eurofighter") program. To me that sounds more plausible, but maybe Airbus will at some point release the information.
@denysivanov3364
Жыл бұрын
Probably just to save money, as usual. Germany is smaller country with less GDP so U.S. has natural advantage in developing super expensive projects. Germany spent money on reunification. Politically wise U.S. is happier when EU spends more money on defence, not less.
@foximacentauri7891
Жыл бұрын
@@denysivanov3364this was the reason. The reunification was a multi billion dollar project, and the threat was gone all of a sudden. Why build a jet you don’t need, with money you don’t have?
@denysivanov3364
Жыл бұрын
@@foximacentauri7891 also Soviet Union started to roll back expansionist policies with Perestroyka ("rebuilding" by Gorbachov)
@Rehunauris
Жыл бұрын
Lampyridaes outdated stealth shaping was most likely reason for cancellation.
@biberfloh
Жыл бұрын
Seeing this video (maybe because it is somehow related to sonar), I was wondering if you could make a presentation, from an analyst perspective, on multistatic sonar techniques (e.g. which are employed by the different navies...). ... Also read a comment stating, that natural sonar sources from marine life could be used in that case, is that a thing?
@xelaxander
2 жыл бұрын
One small comment from someone working with "AI": You'd probably not use AI as a main tool in engineering projects. Most likely they used computer simulation, but that's a massive field and does not mean they didn't use both. Just that AI is not the main choice for such a project. Generally speaking: Few examples with well-understood physics indicates simulation. Many examples with less well-understood physics, and/or fast computation time indicates AI as a main tool. Also in another video, you made a comment on quantum computers on submarines. While I can imagine significant computational power as being extremely useful on subs for any kind of data processing (I bet somebody is developing or has already developed algorithms for sonar) I doubt quantum computers are a massive consideration for the current or even next submarine generation.
@ERIC196909
3 жыл бұрын
Actually, the ping of an active radar bounces off the air inside the submarine. Deflecting these soundwaves is more complex than reflecting them off the angle of the outside hull.
@abrahamdozer6273
3 жыл бұрын
"the ping of an active radar bounces off the air inside the submarine." You need to have a second pressure hull outside of the first one with a vacuum maintained between the two., then.
@Kyoptic
2 жыл бұрын
@@abrahamdozer6273 You'd end up with the same problem. It bounces because of the difference in density of water versus air. A vacuum layer (apart from being heinously difficult to maintain in the super pressurized environment that is the ocean at depth) would suffer the same issue: the difference in density between water and vacuum would be even greater.
@abrahamdozer6273
2 жыл бұрын
@@Kyoptic Yes but the sound waves wouldn't propagate through the vacuum layer in either direction. Anyway, you are right it would be impossible to do. You have to wonder though if the place for a second stealthy sound disrupting layer is between the outer hull and the pressure vessel inside.
@abrahamdozer6273
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock Hmmm. Remove the crew first, if you please.
@patrickchase5614
2 жыл бұрын
Hasn't this approach been hiding in plain sight on the Astute class?
@BRIANJAMESGIBB
2 жыл бұрын
really enjoying your vids glad to see some open voices upon these things reminds me that we are still in the free world....just ;)
@richardstaples8621
2 жыл бұрын
Would a signal from a vessel using active sonar, during its journey reduce to half when travelling to a target then back again, or one quarter (inverse square law)?
@michaeldunne338
2 жыл бұрын
Great topic. Thank you for taking the time and making the stab at addressing this. Curious about any trade-offs between designing a submarine for operating depth (ability to go deeper), stealth and speed. Figure materials (titanium or Hastelloy-100 steel), design (double hull) all come into play. But wonder about the implication of undertaking certain shaping, of the outer hull for subs designed to go down to pretty deep test depths, the kind that it seems the have Russians aspired to (e.g. Akula, Typhoon, Borei, etc.?)?
@_John_P
2 жыл бұрын
The pressure hull is still cylindrical or spherical, the outer hull is a free flood space, so it does not experience the pressure difference that the pressure hull has to withstand.
@Heldermaior
2 жыл бұрын
The problem with submarine stealth against active is that it makes some sense to nations who don't have arsenal ships like the Virginia or the Yasen. But if you do have an arsenal ship then compromising to add this feature is probably not worth it. Some stealth features have been making their way into submarines world wide (the Astute prowl, Anechoic tiles, some shaping of the hull). But other submarines will very rarely ping you because they would be giving their position away and surface combatants if they are close enough to ping you and detect you then what are you doing there?
@stupidburp
2 жыл бұрын
Surface vessels and aircraft will ping often.
@Heldermaior
2 жыл бұрын
@@stupidburp yes. But if you are close enough for their active trace to detect you, things have gone wrong.
@Noone-rt6pw
2 жыл бұрын
I the 70's a Soviet flagged submarine was seen just below New Orleans, La., Where Belle Chasse was/is a Navy base. Once called home of the Blue Angels with the shell of a Blue Angels plane at entrance. Thing is, it was during the Cold War. Then think of this, A German U-boat would sink a ship, then come up in the Mississippi to release people that were saved.
@Alex-cw3rz
2 жыл бұрын
So ironically the older more ship Hull shape subs from WW2 and WW1 were better at deflecting sonar
@nanymitert5447
2 жыл бұрын
Some landlocked countries would not be too thrilled with advances in submarine technologies, and they also would not spend that much for their defense forces in this combat arena.
@stefanrichter9162
2 жыл бұрын
The problem of how to make stealth aircraft visible to radar is nowadays solved , and in a very elegant way. The stealth aircraft design uses the assumption that a radar transmitter and reciever are located in the same object. Thats the way radar has been designed from its start until now. So you try to reduce your radar reflection to a minimum in the direction of the source of the beam. And try to reflect it in another direction away. But what happens when radar transmitter and reciever are not in the same place? Or when you use the "radar background noise " created by a variety of sources like mobilphone transmitter stations ? Then you can percieve a moving aerial object as a local perturbation or disturbance of this background noise. If you connect two recieving stations and their signal , than you can analize for the correct location of the moving aerial object. As your own station is only a reciever you are invisible to anti radar measures which lock on the radar signal of a foe to locate and destroy ist.
@Kyoptic
2 жыл бұрын
Add to that: bistatic sonar arrays are not uncommon for military aplications, these days.
@jebise1126
3 жыл бұрын
i wonder if those sharp edges would make it louder because water wont go over them so smoothly
@KP3droflxp
3 жыл бұрын
Looks like the edges mostly run along the direction the water is moving, so probably not, at least while going straight.
@GetOutsideYourself
2 жыл бұрын
From my armchair expert opinion, seems like this could be defeated by networking multiple active sonar transmitters and receivers to triangulate signals. You can deflect a signal away from the sender, but you can't make it disappear completely, especially if your opponent can observe you from 360º.
@shi01
2 жыл бұрын
Well, that also means bringing a lot of potential targets inside the submarines attack range.
@alpaslan4881
2 жыл бұрын
Not an expert but i really think this submarine will turn into a pain in the ass maintenance wise, especially for the German Navy which already has maintenance difficulties with their current Type-212.
@ALegitimateYoutuber
2 жыл бұрын
a think i heard before that is a weird quirk to submarines. is they can be too stealthy. thus be a void in the noisy ocean. so a submarine has to be as noisy as the ocean, otherwise it stands out for being too noisy or too quite. Though this system has the same problem as stealth aircraft. in that it's vulnerable to array systems. But those only can exist defensively, because they are networks arrays. Though their are offensive arrays in concept, using drone swarms. But to explain an array system, it's simply put just a bunch of radar, sonar, or whatever communicating to each other. So they each know where the others are and what their id's are. So anything that enters the area is breaking the connection between stations and/or reflecting to other stations. Which with some math you can figure out where the object is roughly or depending on network precisely where it is. But atleast submarines aren't subject to Smart AI munitions, because the ones I know of require visual sight to decide on whats a target and track it. I don't know how such a guidance method would be useful underwater compared to normal guided weapons used. Since you can't see anything and radiation detection methods are pretty useless under water.
@anthonyburke5656
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting, Le like consistent comment on both range and crew endurabiity. For example, does the 212cd have different handling problems, is it a rougher ride for the crew, does it cause more crew fatigue, does it affect range (I think it would dramatically affect range, but I don’t know).
@BeKindToBirds
Жыл бұрын
That kind of information probably won't be available until stealth submarines have been in service for decades and we get books written by crew or whatever
@jerrymont2595
2 жыл бұрын
Keep sending your fantastic videos out ! Like most of your subscribers, I don't listen to or view your content in judgment of how great your reporting skills are because I'm here due to the pure quality of your message? So, keep posting and we will keep watching, listening to and giving you thumbs up of course 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼🙂
@17hmr243
2 жыл бұрын
9:15 but cant u then optermzise the receiver with the same cals then ariving line all cars look same due to aerodynamics so you be about to look for that?
@jefft4303
2 жыл бұрын
Wouldn't be surprised to find LOs in orbit, too.
@964cuplove
2 жыл бұрын
Can you give any more info about that German stealth aircraft ? Who worked on it ? Designation ? - thx
@the-quintessenz
2 жыл бұрын
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Lampyridae Looks like origami...
@Fuddleton
2 жыл бұрын
Your analysis of stealth fighters is incorrect. We have stealth aircraft without faceted designs, like the F35. The reason older fighters are faceted is because the computer analysis methods back then couldn't do complex finite analysis for EMI, so they simplified the methods based on what they expected incoming radio waves to look like. Additionally, stealth aircraft still aren't invisible to radar. They make a signal, but it's harder to distinguish it against noise. Bosnia famously shot down an F117 by recognizing it's flight pattern, and tuning their radar sweeps specifically to look for the flight pattern previously positively identified.
@thekingoftheboxleton
2 жыл бұрын
The theme tune slaps
@ChockPoint
Жыл бұрын
nice info sir...very inspiring
@TheTonyMcD
2 жыл бұрын
"The Germans are the ones applying stealth right now .. at least visibly" I would say that's not very good stealth then.
@blackmancer
Жыл бұрын
it seems like a really good idea until you get detected. I say this because when the angle of incidence is almost 90 degrees (depending to distances between the objects), you've suddenly become a massive blip. submarines lack the speed to evade unlike an aircraft, knowing the dimensions of the submarine will provide a reflective signature of each panel and that is trackable. because the size of the flat surfaces are not the same this further characterizes the submarine profile. futhermore, unlike air, the oceans have a bottom that reflects back and thus anything that doesn't reflect will shadow the sea floor. in deep waters this is not an issue but it may factor in shallower waters. overall I think it is a net benefit, but not a huge deal.... *reclines back in computer chair, my work here is done.
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
Wow. Just trying to mentally compute the scale of the processing power required to time domain interpret not only the direct sonar returns but also the multiple reflection returns. That is some signal processing. 😳
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock yeah! I am not sure if that would cut it.
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock seriously though, the amount of filtering and signal conditioning not to mention identification of signals hidden in the remaining clutter made passive sonar a hugely processor hungry activity but I had never considered all the spurious echoes of ethereal phenomenon such as salinity layers etc with active sonar too. Even active requires a lot of conditioning. Remarkable!
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock generous to a fault!
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock that might cover it but I want the shed too!👍🤣
@robinwells8879
2 жыл бұрын
@Drew Peacock is there a lawnmower in the shed because….
@marlbankian
3 жыл бұрын
Interesting
@Statist0815
2 жыл бұрын
And the rubber tiles are also invented in Germany. (Alberich)
@scottiebones
2 жыл бұрын
New to your channel, very interesting content you've got!
@maxhammick948
2 жыл бұрын
6:59 I'd disagree with that, look at the bow on HMS dreadnought (the first submarine, not the recent one)
@Adept893
2 жыл бұрын
Mr. Sutton had that long pause he was thinking about the same thing lol
@wntu4
2 жыл бұрын
When H.I. Sutton talks, people listen.
@howardkong8927
2 жыл бұрын
This channel would be perfect if a better mic is used.
@frosty3693
3 жыл бұрын
Novice question, would not the shape increase drag, turbulence and wake, at least at higher speeds? And is there not technology being exhamined to detect subs by their wakes? But I assume that these are very speed dependant.
@abrahamdozer6273
3 жыл бұрын
" is there not technology being examined to detect subs by their wakes?" I am aware of a technology whereby they "sniff" the water looking for the ionization products caused by particles emitted from nuclear reactors, thus locating wakes.
@swunt10
2 жыл бұрын
there are no angles normal to the direction of flow so no extra turbulence.
@abrahamdozer6273
2 жыл бұрын
@@swunt10 .... angles not normal to the direction of flow ... Wouldn't that create cavitation?
@swunt10
2 жыл бұрын
@@abrahamdozer6273 no, angles normal (in the mathematic sense of the word, normal is 90° off) would create turbulence. but if the water flows along a plane it doesn't care if it's, a flat sheet, round or a box.
@abrahamdozer6273
2 жыл бұрын
@@swunt10 Yes, I see ... as long as there is no significant pressure difference between one side and the other ..,
@AyrtonsLoafers
Жыл бұрын
It’s a shame there aren’t more naval nerds in the world. This channel should be huge. I always feel like I’m in a Royal Navy briefing
@mikeconnery4652
Жыл бұрын
Nice information
@bieneulm1982
2 жыл бұрын
You hopefully do know, that Germany doesn´t need to adapt american stealth technology such as the overaged F-117 that wouldn´t had stand a chance against Germanys MBB Lampyridae already in the 80s?! It has all that on his own, regarding submarines has it all that since the late second World War. The thumbnail is therefore a bit confusing. The first stealth submarines were being build by the German Kriegsmarine to counter sonar measures in the endgame of the war. The first submarine that could be called that was invented in Germany: Walther-U-Boat (later on known as Type XXI). German technology everytime was the forerunner to what bad copies came out in the US later on.
@suhan8382
Жыл бұрын
90 degree and less is acting like car cat eye reflectors.120 degree is about ideal for outer angles
@davidholmgren659
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent. Unscripted adds more 'character' to the video.
@user-lh1ef1st9k
3 жыл бұрын
sounds like what those cartel will always dreamin about lol
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