this thumbnail confirms objective beauty exists! as an evangelical, now i feel obligated to go a beautiful church.
@redeemedzoomer6053
6 ай бұрын
that's the idea. Find one here: www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1PNd_sJagci84PyKmGC6M5VJtaLMEWxg&ll=40.87060059224757%2C-82.31438848543115&z=17
@LoganS.R.
6 ай бұрын
Are there any good, conservative/semiconservative churches in Scotland?
@redeemedzoomer6053
6 ай бұрын
@@LoganS.R. yes! Go here; www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?ll=44.03226794579251,-92.75978994999998&z=17&mid=1PNd_sJagci84PyKmGC6M5VJtaLMEWxg
@Quincy_Morris
6 ай бұрын
Beauty is not God. But God is Beautiful.
@LoganS.R.
6 ай бұрын
@@redeemedzoomer6053Thanks, Redeemed Zoomer!
@dragonjo7550
6 ай бұрын
i mean, nothing wrong with meeting members of your church at each other's houses, in fact it should be very encouraged. however a large body meeting and a centre to outreach from is really important
@Tennishangman
6 ай бұрын
Which, to clarify, is an aspect of many house church models. They just don’t meet in a large body weekly.
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
@@Tennishangman Which is a horrible idea, as they cannot take part in the Eucharist on Sundays. Also, just very small groups of people getting together without a priest to discuss the Bible is not in itself a bad idea, but you need a hierarchy to have consistent and theologically sound interpretation. Otherwise, you become like many evangelicals, who just interpret the Bible to fit their own views, so it should be done in addition to attending Church, not instead of it.
@Tennishangman
6 ай бұрын
@@justhair17 I understand Catholic and Eastern traditions (including those passed down to some high-church Protestant denominations) hold that you cannot take the Eucharist without a priest, but this idea is one of many that is notoriously absent from the Bible. No disrespect to those traditions - you may believe your tradition itself is inspired alongside the Bible - but I think it’s unfair to apply that restriction to others outside your tradition. Theres no biblical reason why you need a priest to observe communion beyond the royal priesthood that is all of Christianity. Edit: The early Church certainly didn’t have anything akin to a modern priest as a requirement to take communion. If anything, they may have been doing it every time they met, Sunday or otherwise, regardless of whether they were even in a church. I’m not advocating that position, but I am saying God clearly allowed some flexibility here beyond your tradition.
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
@@Tennishangman It is sacred tradition and no, it is not unfair to appy it. Keep in mind Christ did not give us the Bible, he gave us His Church, which then gave us the Bible. And again, early church was different, as the apostles and their disciples were present. Now, as they are dead, we have to follow the tradition set by the apostles themselves. And the priests are special, only they can give out sacraments, not the laity And besides, even Luther believed that about the Eucharist, only low churches with no tradition and literally no links to the apostles believe that.
@Tennishangman
6 ай бұрын
@@justhair17 All I can say is that the Pope of your “one and only true and holy apostolic church” is more ecumenical than the view you’re espousing. It seems radical to think the Church of Rome was originally determined by a Church centered in Antioch and Jerusalem to be the head of the entire Church, but I understand that’s been y’all’s position for quite some time, so I won’t try to change your mind. Have a nice day.
@macpduff2119
6 ай бұрын
I was an Independent Evangelical and you are so right on about Evangelicals retreating from secular culture! It made me angry because Ive witnessed the deterioration of our culture as a result. You also nailed it by pointing out that Evangelicals love plain ugly worship areas. As an artist I found this hostility to beauty offensive. I also found it offensive to God, because He created all beauty.
@redeemedzoomer6053
6 ай бұрын
Exactly! So join a Mainline Protestant church www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1SRpkwF4hEaXZvor4BXyoAawrNVgH9CM&ll=34.558606130601454%2C-84.81368661242608&z=5
@Omen09
6 ай бұрын
huh, funny, cause the last 100 years in arts were hostile to beauty, maybe going after art isn't the goal afterall, hmm??
@georgegreen711
6 ай бұрын
@@Omen09 That's political and cultural, not essential to the arts. Art is a tool.
@Omen09
6 ай бұрын
@@georgegreen711 ??? i m sorry, the guy said he s an artist, so i assumed he knows what happened in arts during 20th century. That's why it always baffles me when in this channel it's propagated to have beauty in churches (buildings) when we know were art eventually leads to. Maybe focusing on God instead of art should be bigger priority?
@d__w295
6 ай бұрын
Interesting.. as someone who would identify as an evangelical, it seems to me that worshipping God in more humble, lowkey fashions is quite reflective of His nature. Our God has a reputation of transforming ugliness, or undesirableness, into beauty. Christ was born in a feeding troth. David was the youngest and smallest of his brothers. You and I were sinners who've been made saints. The ones who inherit the kingdom of heaven are those who are poor in spirit, mournful, and meek. It is in the nature of God to transform ugliness and lowliness into beauty and royalty. With that being said, I believe it isn't unfitting to worship God, the most majestic and important act in all the universe, in a humble location like that of house churches. In other words, there's beauty in the humility. I appreciate your perfective, though! The aesthetic sense is one of God's greatest gifts to mankind.
@Emigdiosback
6 ай бұрын
House Churches are fine for Nondenominational Churches, especially if they’re starting out. They have to start somewhere.
@oscarfabi_
6 ай бұрын
Agree, not acceptable for any other historic denom though. Buy deteriorating old churches if you can afford or revive a dying church
@auggieeasteregg2150
6 ай бұрын
I agree
@chancepaladin
6 ай бұрын
yea and if you don't have a local grange or something, it'd be next to impossible otherwise. you can't have them outside forever either.
@Emigdiosback
6 ай бұрын
@@chancepaladin maybe in your backyard, but it’s only good if you’re starting out. If you go from building to backyard sermons, that church is practically dead.
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
The question is, why would you even want to be a non-denom church
@erikabutterfly
6 ай бұрын
Here are some very good reasons for churches to meet in houses: 1. Church members need to live in close enough proximity to each other for that to be possible. That makes it easier and more likely for them to spend time together during the week as well, which strengthens the community. 2. By not having to buy/rent/build and maintain a large fancy structure, financial resources of the church are more available to help those in need - both inside the church and around. 3. If everyone has a turn hosting church, the members of the church get to know each other better. By seeing how our brothers and sisters live we can be more aware of their circumstances, and thereby become aware of their needs and how we can help and support each other. 4. Meals together are a big thing in the New Testament. Most house Church meetings include a shared meal. 5. Jesus said that people would know we are His disciples by the love we have for each other - not by how impressive our buildings are. Neighbors notice when large groups of people often get together. And when they get together in smaller groups throughout the week, people will notice how they interact with each other, which is a good witness. All of these points and more mean of course, that it can't be a retreatist house Church in the middle of Nowhere. And just one family by itself doesn't make much of a church either. But a church that is built on community and hospitality, as well as being faithful to scripture is a beautiful thing. I hope you get a chance to see a church like that some day :)
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
Again, those points may make people meeting in houses a good addition. But they cannot replace a real church with a proper Sunday Mass.
@TheDragonSeer
6 ай бұрын
Having a house church is good if the person hosting it took the proper steps to know God and there aren't any good churches available (this is entirely possible.)
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
A real church? We are the church. We are the body of Christ. We are the temple of God. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name, He is there among us.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
@@TheDragonSeerNowhere in Scripture do the apostles command us to go to church. They just ask us to remember to gather with other believers. Attending a small home church encourages everyone to get involved. Everyone has a stake in it. Whereas in big churches, most people that attend church on Sunday don't get involved in the church. They are more like spectators. Attending a service is not the same as getting involved in the growth of the church. In a big church it is more difficult to find or develop the talents that God has given us. That's why you have people who have attended church for years, yet can't even evangelize or teach a new convert
@MeanBeanComedy
6 ай бұрын
@@nerychristianYou're not going to take over the culture with that.
@pb_destiny
6 ай бұрын
11:20 The more I listen to this guy the stranger he sounds. "Your pastor should have credentials". Yes, in an era where we have easy access to bible training, Pastors should take advantage of that. But, that doesn't make them *qualified*. It's the church that ordains ministers, not seminaries
@jo_el_
5 ай бұрын
This guy is extremely reformed. I think he is not able to read the Bible without his Reformed glasses on.
@pb_destiny
5 ай бұрын
@@jo_el_ The thing is, I'm reformed too, albiet 1689 baptist (which he wouldn't call reformed for some reason). The problem isn't being reformed. The problem is that saying that seminary training qualifies you, rather than being an indicator of a qualification (being able to teach sound doctrine) just isn't biblical. Perhaps he mispoke out of undue passion (to be charitable), but he strikes me as consistently strange when he talks about "the mainline church" as if being mainline is THE standard for being biblical. I can understand arguing for confessionalism (very based), but he seems to have an undue obsession with tradition for tradition's sake
@jo_el_
5 ай бұрын
@@pb_destiny Well said.
@maxxiong
6 ай бұрын
The PCA church I go to started as a house church. We don't have hour building yet, but it has the best preaching I've heard (at least in person) and weekly communion. It's always word and sacrament above everything else.
@asal.5541
6 ай бұрын
There is a difference between house churches and church plants. A PCA church can start small and meet in a movie theatre or something (as mine did), but those are still approved by a Presbytery. Church plants are unorganized and often non-denom. They have neither the accountability nor the resources that a PCA church plant would have. Hence, I don't think yours is a problem, especially if they have plans to one day have a real building.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
Last I heard, believers didn't need permission from a denomination in order to gather together and start a church.
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
“When he [Peter] realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who is called Mark, where there were many people gathered in prayer ” (Acts 12:12).
@ryanpowell9003
6 ай бұрын
Right like what are these people talking about? The Church is the body of Christ, not a building. I guess we have it figured out better than the apostles these days.
@romancoinberg
6 ай бұрын
The first Christians worshipped in the Jewish temples, that doesn't mean Christians need to call their temples "synagogues"
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
The Church obeys the commands of Christ to the best of their ability to exalt Christ, if that is under a tree, in a house, or in a cave, at some point they will have to go out and reach the lost because Jesus commanded us to GO and make disciples Matthew 28:18-20. The book of Acts 2:36-46 says the first church preached the gospel, called people to repentance, baptized them, were filled with the Holy Spirit, devoted themselves to the Apostles teachings, the fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayers, they walked in signs and wonders, they gave to each other as they had need, worshipping God together, and the Lord was adding to their number those who were being saved. This all can happen in homes, as well as the temple or church building. Churches are fine, and God uses them, but to say they are the model that God plans for every church to meet in is not financially sustainable. I heard someone tell me that the national dept in the west for all the churches is almost 1 trillion dollars and who is going to pay for that? Our tithes! Our tithes should further the gospel being spread and disciples being made in public.@@ryanpowell9003
@lluvik2450
5 ай бұрын
@@ryanpowell9003yeah but this guy is one of those guys that care a lot about the actual buildings themselves. He comes off a lot like a stereotypical telegram guy if you know what i mean. It sounded like he thinks that church buildings somehow arent going to be destroyed along with all of the current iteration of creation at the end of time, which is contrary to Scripture. Like you said, at the end of the day the church building is just that, a building. Some people (especially telegram guys) seem to attach more meaning to material things than they should.
@disguisedcentennial835
5 ай бұрын
@@lluvik2450 so because the Ark of the Covenant was going to be destroyed, they should’ve told God to buzz off when he said to make it beautiful, with gold and statues?
@myrmidonesantipodes6982
6 ай бұрын
The common lack of distinction between Temple, Congregation, Denomination and Church (calling all 4 "church") has been a disaster for soteriological and ecumenical discussion.
@deutschermichel5807
6 ай бұрын
Denomination and Church are one ;)
@sirllamaiii9708
6 ай бұрын
A denomination is a subcategory of the Church. @@deutschermichel5807
@Liethen
6 ай бұрын
@@deutschermichel5807 Temple: The building the Congregation meets at for worship. Congregation: A group that meets together for worship. Denomination: A group that agree on the particulars of biblical interpretation. Church: All who are united in Christ.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
Seriously. I can't believe how ignorant a lot of the people are. It just goes to show that they don't read their bibles. The fact that this video spends so much time talking about "Going to church" is ridiculous. The church is the body of Christ. It doesn't matter where you gather together, as long as you are worshipping God in spirit and in truth. I would gladly attend a home church if it meant getting away from the entertainment style of service we see in most "churches".
@MeanBeanComedy
6 ай бұрын
@@nerychristianNo, that's not how God usually describes worship places for Him.
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
“Give greetings to the brothers in Laodicea and to Nympha and to the church in her house ” (Colossians 4:15).
@ryanpowell9003
6 ай бұрын
Right like what are these people talking about? The Church is the body of Christ, not a building. I guess we have it figured out better than the apostles these days.
@romancoinberg
6 ай бұрын
Literally the next verse: Colossians 4:16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea. The Church of Laodicea was one of the 7 Churches and was a proper building for worship.
@ryanpowell9003
6 ай бұрын
@@romancoinberg you mean the ones who were criticized and threatened to be spit out for being lukewarm? Not sure we should be copying them. As for them having a "proper building", the scripture never says that. Maybe consider that Paul's letters were written decades prior to the book of Revelation and the church likely grew in size, but in none of the Bible does it describe what the Church of Laodicea looked like. All Paul says is to read the letter in the church. Not one point in the Bible does the word "church" refer to a building. The Greek word 'Ekklesia' means 'assembly' or 'gathering'. It does not mean 'building of worshippers'.
@romancoinberg
6 ай бұрын
@ryanpowell9003 The Corinthians were being criticized for being promiscuous yet they were a Church as well. If you look for images of the Corinthian and Laodicean Churches you'll see the ruins of big temples, they were built for worship, in fact, if you Google the word "ἐκκλησίᾳ" in images the first result is a Church building.
@brandonluker3660
6 ай бұрын
@romancoinberg2004 yes exactly! I was in old Corinth back 2017 and got to see the ruins of a church there.
@KolinHoopes
6 ай бұрын
I am sure you’ve read “where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.” You’ve also read how the woman at the well asked Jesus where she should worship, and his answer was “In Spirit and in truth.” Just reminding you, do with that as you please. On a personal note, I ordered a nice premium Bible. It cost me $200. I thought because it was beautiful on the outside (it has a lovely dark purple goatskin) and beautiful on the inside (red accents, ornate drop caps, fine French paper) that I would like it better and want to read it more. Turns out, the opposite has occurred. The outward beauty has detracted and distracted from the true significance of what was inside. I found out that I payed $200 for something I already had, because the only part that truly mattered was the words on the pages. I believe the same thing applies to the church. You can decorate it and make it as expensive and luxurious as you’d like (using money that could’ve been given to something better) but what truly matters is the union of believers inside. You can do that in a fancy building, or in a house, it makes no difference in my judgment.
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
Not rly. Not sure if it is the beautiful buildings, a more traditional liturgy or the presence of the Eucharist, but a Catholic or even Orthodox mass feels much more holy than a protestant, especially a low church protestant does. Beauty is important and a church is the house of God, so it should be given due respect. How a church looks may not be the most important aspect, but its not negligible either.
@igorlopes7589
5 ай бұрын
It does not follow that because we worship in spirit and truth that material manifestations of that are unimportant. Or do you think the Israelites didn't give true spiritual worship at the Temple when they weren't corrupt? Same works for His presence being anywhere two or more are gathered. It does not follow that because He is present wherever we gather that the place in which we gather shouldn't be dignified as much as possible and be set apart from the world as something sacred and reserved for Him. Also, just because something isn't the fundamental essential basics doesn't mean its unimportant and has no harm in being ignored.
@davidthepolitepaladin1195
6 ай бұрын
Not to mention most house churches grow so much they end up getting a separate building anyways
@MatthewJackson-ff5yj
6 ай бұрын
In my country, Belgium, finding classical beautiful protestant churches is quite difficult in my area. There are plenty of beautiful catholic churches but I'm not catholic, I believe in the protestant doctrines. I can only go thus far to ugly odern evangelical churches. However, the most important thing is that I've accepected Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior.
@jeremywilliams5107
6 ай бұрын
Which part of Belgium?
@MatthewJackson-ff5yj
6 ай бұрын
@@jeremywilliams5107 Liège, Wallonia.
@jeremywilliams5107
6 ай бұрын
@MatthewJackson-ff5yj I see... nearest 'traditionally beautiful' Protestant church would be the Anglican church in Brussels. I live about 2 hours away from you.
@taylorrowe2002
6 ай бұрын
how do you reconcile with all the scientifically proven miracles in the Catholic Church?@@MatthewJackson-ff5yj
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
Just try attending Catholic Churches and you will see the truth
@ericbudnovitch7630
6 ай бұрын
I love zoomer's insight on things like this. I agree a lot with him about Christians retreating from the culture, however, I think a lot of it has to do with the need to strengthen "domestic Christianity", in other words, the Christian family unit has to get stronger first before fighting back in the culture in my opinion. I'm hoping that there's a huge movement soon in order to fight back against the culture, but from what I've seen many fail to do that in their own homes when their kids are exposed to so much temptation from the world.
@ericbudnovitch7630
6 ай бұрын
(that being said, I agree with just about everything he said about house churches)
@jackmueller3053
6 ай бұрын
That, I feel, is the only good reason for retreatism. I myself plan on homeschooling because I want my children to grow up with a firm godly foundation as uncorrupted by this world as I can manage. However, that is also to raise them to be "arrows in my quiver" -- that is agents of the Kingdom.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
Why do people who use the word "Zoomer" think they are so clever?
@MeanBeanComedy
6 ай бұрын
@@nerychristianThey don't. It just means Gen Z.
@lluvik2450
5 ай бұрын
I dont know man, his theology is extremely strange to me
@BedtimeBen
6 ай бұрын
I used to work at a ministry that was careful to distinguish between house churches (a church currently meeting in a house) and a home church (a home/family that believes that there is no command to regularly worship with other Christians). I have always found that distinction helpful.
@erikabutterfly
6 ай бұрын
Agreed. One couple with a handful of kids is not a church. If they are the only believers in the area they need to either move, or (if so called through connection with a larger group farther away) work as missionaries in their area. In that case they should aim to invite others into their home as well. Christians should never be isolationist.
@erikabutterfly
6 ай бұрын
In the world, not of the world. Separate from the world, but not from each other.
@kyleholmgren5939
6 ай бұрын
*Francis Chan has entered the chat* lol jk Even though i disagreed with alot of what you were saying, i am happy you added towards the end that house churches in the correct context can be a very good thing. I also do agree with you that house churches should be viewed as the baby stages of an established church. I think your opinion about evangelicals is a bit skewed. A lot of what you were saying is stereotypical and not the norm. But for myself who interacts with a lot of evangelicals on a daily basis, i can tell you that evangelicals are not retreating from the culture. Evangelical churches are doing more urban mission work than other denominations and seeing the fruit of that labor, not to mention the media influence evangelical leaders are tapping into (surprise, it's more than mainline denomination leaders). For non-mainline churches having less resources and less organization, they seem to be doing a lot more for the Kingdom now than mainline churches in the U.S. Also, evangelicals espouse that the "in-between" part from becoming Christian and dying is to make disciples, preach the Gospel, and care for the sick, poor, widows, and orphans. I say this in love: I think your comments on evangelicals/churches not part of the mainline denominations are divisive and not good for the Kingdom. I understand your desire to see the mainline churches taken back and I support that, but i think you need to recognize how God is using non-denominational and Evangelical denominations as well.
@Jordan-cy3di
6 ай бұрын
My church started off as house church but eventually upgraded to having an actual building
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
They should have started other home churches.
@christianbaxter_yt
6 ай бұрын
I agree with you in a general sense, completely. However, there are situations that happen in people’s lives that don’t make every decision on where to go to church black and white.
@walterusalbus
6 ай бұрын
I know a guy who owns a house church, they're really into "speaking in tongues", and the guy who owns it says that "the Pentecostals do speaking in tongues wrong, you need an interpreter." He basically said everyone does speaking in tongues wrongs except his house-church. It's basically a cult, it's very emotion based and low iq preaching. Their worship is just hymns and they sit down, and the guy who owns it writes his own hymns and they sing them. So arrogant.
@ngaboyasabyombiemmanuel8504
6 ай бұрын
Great vid zoomer. I’m from Rwanda from Presbyterian Church in Rwanda(EPR) and I’d like to complement with somethin. We go to church every Sunday but we also have home churches as secondary church every other week and there is no motif of leaving the mainstream church but I can promise you I’ve seen more miracles(literal and metaphorical) being done in our region’s home church than mainstream service(ex:barren women getting pregnant, families on the verge of divorce getting back together,…) and people kept growing spiritually due to the communal study of the word and it was the most beautiful thing and there is much much more I’ve seen of how beneficial it can be. Once again I am adding and not subtracting from your video. God bless you!
@asafesseidonsapphire
6 ай бұрын
I think we shouldn't refer to these as house churches and more as Small Groups, groups of 5-10 people united in a week day to learn and talk about God's word weekly in addition of the Sunday reunion. A important theological figure whose name I forgot, said something like this: Small Groups are how the church truly grows and make an effect in it's around, as It isn't secluded in it's four walls. Okay I added things in his quote because I don't remember the actual quote, just the overall thing he was trying to explain, that is small groups make the Church reach people it wouldn't otherwise.
@USpatriot741776
6 ай бұрын
This is probably true for western Christianity but historically the most successful church model has incorporated the home church model to some extent. You see in Acts that the early church did meet in the temple and in people's houses and you also see the Church in China meeting from house to house with not a structure to speak of. But RZ said in the beginning, "If you're able" and that's key. If you're able to you should go to a church building.
@jdotoz
6 ай бұрын
Japanese Christians heroically kept the faith for centuries from the time Japan closed itself off from the world to the time it was forced open. Their faith was exemplary, but that doesn't mean they were in a good position.
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
Early Christians met in houses because they were persecuted. And the most successful church, that is the Catholic Church (the largest and the only one truly global), which is defo not know for house churches
@justhair17
6 ай бұрын
And also, 'house churches' could work in those times because the apostles or their disciples were often also attending, which means they had a teaching authority
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
Right now the church is sending missionaries trained professionally with this house church planting model and it is biblical. The IMB sends many missionaries and see thousands of house churches planted, that plant more houses and it spreads. The cost per baptism is cheap! In the mainline it is like 5000 per baptism. If we want to send missionaries to plant churches but they need 200k for every church we would never finish the great commission. That is why many missionaries are sent with the Luke 10 house of peace search Acts 2:36-46 home church model that multiplies and spreads to many houses as the people are obedient to the great commission. House church models that missionaries are often trained in include engaging the lost, sharing the gospel, discipling the saved, teaching the saved to make disciples, and gathering the disciples into churches and establishing leaders in the churches Acts 14:23. This is called disciple making movements or Church planting movements. They have alot of merit and are worthy to be researched.
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
@jdotoz @justhair17 Hey brothers check my reply. Love you both!
@eugenesteinbeck9469
6 ай бұрын
Some counterpoints: 1. Evangelicalism places a fair bit of emphasis on "parachurch" movements. For example, while the Salvation Army is in fact a formal denomination, it receives the vast bulk of its funding from people who aren't members. Likewise it wouldn't be considerably different in terms of effectiveness were it a simple Christian charity with a combination of volunteers and paid staffers. There is in practice no fundamental difference between them and, say, Samaritan's Purse. If, instead of a million Christians being active members of Denomination X, they were divided into 50,000 disorganized cells of house churches with an average of 20 members each, those million people could still pool their resources toward charitable parachurch organizations like the Salvation Army or hospitals. 2. House churches are more efficient because they use property which somebody already owns and pays the expenses related to. It adds zero expense to a household budget for some guests to come over every Sunday and sit in the living room for an hour or two. Churches often have limited charity budgets because some minimum percentage of their receipts have to go toward maintaining the building, paying the pastor's salary, etc. If every house church member gave to worthy Christian causes, there'd be less administrative waste per dollar spent. 3. It doesn't seem to me that the""Let's found rigorous new Christian universities" trend among organized denominations which happened in the 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries is common today. Which is to say that, in the year 2023, I have no reason to think Presbyterians were more prodigious collegebuilders than their Evangelical counterparts. Your argument here boils down to resting on the laurels of history. 4. There's a trend toward a smaller number of churches, each with more attendees on average. This is seen across American Christendom; the "Megachurch" isn't really an Evangelical-exclusive phenomenon nowadays, even if the most extremely large ones tend to be so. In such an environment it's easy to blend into a crowd and not be held accountable for the way you live, which is arguably why more and more people prefer larger churches. But small house churches are very much personal. And yes, it's possible to plug into small cliques within churches, but that's optional. With house churches it cannot be avoided. South Korea has seen large-scale experimentation with house churches in recent years and it seems indicative of growing religious fervor on their parts.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
I agree with you completely. I think modern churches have become lifeless and stale. Part of the reason is because they are too predictable. When you attend church, it feels like you are going through a routine. No matter how strong your spiritual walk, it just feels like you are a spectator. There is usually very little opportunity for serving in a church in a meaningful way. In a smaller church or home church, you are kind of forced to get to know people and get involved. You kind of have to participate in a home church. It's also easier to discover the talents that God gave us in a small congregation.
@TemperedMedia
5 ай бұрын
You make some strong points. It's a shame they're wasted here. TL;DR there's a time and a place for both. I will offer a counter argument to your first point. Organizations like the Salvation Army are separate from the body of Christ and not subject to actual religious oversight. They run a business, and while they're not the worst organization out there, they're just as susceptible to corruption as any secular business. Of course, the modern western church is effectively corrupt from the inside out at this point, so it's not a strong counterargument. The way I see it, there are tradeoffs no matter what route your local body of Christ chooses. With house churches, your members are more likely to be active in one another's lives and serving as an example to those in their immediate are. However, they're practically invisible on a large scale. A lot of young conservatives place a higher value on this "culture war" idea, even if their religion strictly expresses the futility of such a battle. It's a call to battle, and young men today lack a fight to pick. A house church isn't picking any fights except those spiritual battles they face individually. This brings me to the pros/cons of larger churches within denominations. Big tent church theology can be incredibly uniting, because if they all belong to the same overhead organization, you know roughly what to expect when you go from one church to the next. Establishing a new church is a much smoother process; with a larger body comes more resources pooled for outreach, including RZ's obsession with physically beautiful structures. This smooth process can make it far more convenient for acts of community service. As part of an established religious organization, you can expect less civil pushback. One big problem is how comparatively different non-denominational churches are. You have no idea what you're walking into when you cross that threshold. Even if their website claims the Nicene Creed and the congregants rave about how wonderful the church is, you can end up finding out the hard way like I did how fallen the modern church really can be while still claiming to hold to the tenets of the Bible. However, you can effectively disappear into a congregation that's anything larger than two digits regardless of its denomination. I've even disappeared myself in meetings of 50 -- in every Sunday and completely forgotten. It might as well have been a house church with a neon sign out front saying, "No vacancy". This makes actually doing the things called for in the New Testament extremely challenging, as you sometimes have to work to find the arbitrary way to prove yourself worthy of attention. Hard to edify/be edified in the body of Christ if you're invisible. Of course, my real problem is the sort of spirit James was opposed to when he wrote about favoritism. I reckon the reason I'm invisible in churches is that I don't abide fancy clothing. I often look like an old beggar because I'd rather spend my money more wisely. I don't disagree with the notion that we ought to strive to be our best for God, but RZ strays too far into the weeds here, I believe. This is indicative of most churches that meet in a building, but less so with house churches.
@TemperedMedia
5 ай бұрын
@@nerychristian Lifeless and stale? I'd argue the opposite -- raunchy and debaucherous. Devoid of God, maybe. Modern churches seem to be the place people go on Sunday morning to feel holy after getting drunk the night before and sleeping with the pastor's wife or the secretary. Lots of ladies getting excited to go to church on Sunday so they can fawn over the pastor, to boot. I'm not going to church to get "excited" because my faith isn't about my emotional state. We need holy churches that challenge us in our faith for real, not the way modern non-denominational churches "challenge" themselves by choosing to read the Bible or the way a priest "challenges" his congregation to actually show up next week instead of sleeping in. If anyone's idea of a church is about "being seen and heard" then their idea of church is about themselves and feeling good and not about being a servant of Christ. It's the exact same self-importance rampant in larger churches that shun the poor and clap to loud guitar music.
@heir8095
6 ай бұрын
As a recent member of the house church movement, I have noticed that it is simply the inverse of establishing a "normal church". Whereas, a regular church would build a main gathering and then create small groups from that, a house church will make small groups and then create a large gathering on Sunday. I like the concept as it protes accountability and intimacy among the bretheren, but it's not the best idea ever. Especially when people are uneducated and enter a house church, there is not reliable authority to help flush out bad ideas. At least in early church times they had the apostles, who were completely solid in their understanding.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
You don't need apostles. You have the word of God
@OrlovYan
6 ай бұрын
The moment you criticized evangelical women I felt daggers from my evangelical wife and mother in-law. It's painfully accurate.
@Liethen
6 ай бұрын
One of the best churches I ever attended was started as a house church. By the time I joined it was in a converted one room schoolhouse built in the late 1800s. Jam packed every sunday wednesday and friday.
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
Communion together in their homes. Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
@cskandrsgyrgy
6 ай бұрын
Historically, "house churches" were always a part of Christianity. Traditionally they are called "Christian Families". In these "house churches" the father should be the leading pastor/priest; the mother should be his leading theologian/seminary teacher, and the children are the seminarians. When these "house churches" (families) are mostly dysfunctional, then institutional churches are in big trouble. Their societal foundation (strong Christian families) are missing (Just like the foundations of Zoomer's new house).
@ivetterodriguez9628
5 ай бұрын
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” What do you make of us this verse in respect to house churches?
@erickemiliogazconarevalo3989
6 ай бұрын
My neighbor house is used as a church every sunday and hosts their own services for their family and a few people in their denomination. But take in account we live in mexico, and most people here are catholic then a small percentage of Mormons and JWs, and after that protestant christians. That means the nearest church of their denomination is hours away from their home or in the US wich most people cannot cross to without years of bureaucracy to get a travel visa even for religious reasons. To be fair as a "pseudo catholic" i dont mind being woken up by their sermon every sunday, as they are doing their best to practice their faith given the difficulties of living as a minority.
@ctswag4204
6 ай бұрын
I'm tired of people thinking that they need to start a new church since none of the churches in their area meet their warped standards. Most areas have many churches to choose from. Join a church instead of starting a "church" and trying to steal sheep.
@d__w295
6 ай бұрын
I think it's all about motives. Sure, you have wolves in sheep's clothing starting house churches in order to build their ideal "church" that fits whatever standard they so decide. However, one could also argue that house churches, if built under the model of leadership presented in the New Testament, are more effective in fulfilling the great commission because the smaller atmosphere provides a greater intimacy among believers. The greater the intimacy among believers, the greater the discipleship. The greater the discipleship, the greater the spiritual maturity. The greater the spiritual maturity, the greater the evangelism. The greater the evangelism, the greater the gospel growth.
@jeremywilliams5107
6 ай бұрын
The basic question is - your house or God's house?
@jacobulmer4462
6 ай бұрын
Apostles and early Christians seeing this video like😐
@fidole791
6 ай бұрын
Yes those are the exception as stated in the video
@jacobulmer4462
6 ай бұрын
@@fidole791 convenient
@John_the_Paul
5 ай бұрын
That’s how it goes when you’re being oppressed and can’t meet in public.
@Jesusiscomingback-jc8nf
25 күн бұрын
Unless you’re in somewhere like china where you physically can’t meet in public there isn’t much of an excuse
@georgegreen711
6 ай бұрын
The small group and the large congregation are the two wings of the church. Multiplication and addition occur to our numbers best when both are in harmony. "The Second Reformation" is a great book about that.
@DannyHDorf
6 ай бұрын
This has been interesting to listen to as a house church leader and a babtist one at that. :D I feel that house churches, in my experience, are more successful at creating more disciples than just believers. Which has been my problem with larger congregations of/or trad churches. I feel the anonymity of a large congregation thwarts personal spiritual growth. And a lot of the larger churches haven't figured out a good way to tackle that issue. But I'm not from the States, so experiences will vary. But I do agree on the fact that house churches should strive for some sort of leadership structure, band together with other small churches and join a denomination or doctrinally sound christian organisation for accountability. This paradoxical idea of elitism and universalism of Christianity- A church for everybody, but still not all are chosen. I believe God allows for more individuality than we think- Like RZ keeps saying he thinks that trad worship is objectively better, but thinking it already makes it kind of subjective. I find most trad hymns dry and unmoving, but the familiar music, understandable and repeatable lyrics of modern worship are more immersive for me.(Not a fan of Hillsong either though and I enjoy only a few of Bach's pieces :D ) But I think that's the beauty of Christ, he unites people from all walks of life and offers all willing hearts a suitable place for worship.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
True. A home church forces everyone to get involved. You can't just be a spectator in a home church.
@EnoI539
6 ай бұрын
Saw the title and thumbnail and knew this was gonna be good.
@BrohoshaphatG
6 ай бұрын
evangelicals saying location is irrelevant and it doesn't matter where you worship vs evangelicals crying when they touch dirt in israel
@electrolytics
6 ай бұрын
That's not a good dichotomy. One is a about a place to Worship the other is about a pilgrimage. You're making a disingenuous comparison.
@BrohoshaphatG
6 ай бұрын
@@electrolytics And a funny disingenuous comparison to boot
@pb_destiny
6 ай бұрын
WAHAHA
@amosamwig8394
6 ай бұрын
please dont sow division brother
@lucasberglund5358
6 ай бұрын
But what if the house has stained glass???
@YoshiCh1ef-je6me
6 ай бұрын
Finally, another KingdomCraft episode!
@Pumpkinshire
6 ай бұрын
My sister and brother in law run their own house church. They excommunicated my side of the family. Don’t know how it’s doing. Hope the’re doing well.
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
Why did they excommunicate you?
@JustAL2004
6 ай бұрын
I think having Church at Home is good if the building of the Church need dome fixings
@christianldove
6 ай бұрын
Any congregation of believers who meets on the Lord's Day to participate in Word and Sacrament (i.e. has a properly ordained minister among them under external authority), is a legitimate and valid expression of the Catholic Church-regardless of their place of meeting. It is a "real church." House Churches were the norm of the first two centuries of the Church because synagogues were the norm for worship outside of High Holy Days among the Hebrews in the first century, and those were also "House Churches" (Synagogues were designated meeting rooms in large houses). While there are problems with the "House Church Movement"-e.g. pietism, retreatism, biblicism, etc.-these are prevalent and pervasive issues of American Evangelicalism at large, irrespective of House Churches. What we can see that is worth noting in the movement, however, is a reaction against the evangelical consumerism which plagues most churches today (Reformed included, if not notably)-conspicuous consumption of resources on buildings, programs, events, parachurch "ministries," etc. By all means critique where critique is due, but given the influence you have now I would encourage you to be a little more circumspect in how you throw your clout around. The opening statement started problematically because of your use of "real church," which begs the question and categorizes house churches as "not real church" from the beginning. Also, parallel economies are legitimate. Mediocre "Christian" schools are legitimate alternatives to mediocre public schools. A local house Church (or public mission) down the street is a legitimate alternative to the local established congregation. Keep in mind that much said about house churches could be consistently applied to local missions and church planting. Anyhow, just some thoughts-I say all this as a minister of a local, public congregation with our own church building.
@COKTilYouDrop
6 ай бұрын
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24-25 while I agree its probably better to gather in church (because more followers equals more transparency on the Word of God) however I know of many people with extreme anxiety that say they can't go to church (and when they do go to church they end up leaving in 15-45 minutes on average because they start to shake and are unable to control how their body is reacting) tbh IDK if its better for them to "listen online" or if it's better they go to a real church (as they seem to not be able to do the latter well) but I'm about to listen to the whole video now 😂 if anyone read this i hope you enjoyed, and any info on this would be helpful
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
“Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon, our beloved and our co-worker, to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church at your house ” (Philemon verses 1-2).
@redknightsr69
6 ай бұрын
Visiting Liberty University made me an atheist..... The amount of money that place spent on making college a fun place was incomprehensible to me
@joshuakarr-BibleMan
6 ай бұрын
Lovely video, Zoomer. I appreciate your succinct explanations and your aober mind. I'm looking forward to the day you earn your ordination.
@burnstick1380
6 ай бұрын
11:03 agreed here, yes every church needs a structure but we must be clear that the bible gives a structure. It state multiple roles (eldest, servants, teachers, shepards) and if all of them are in some way or another satisfied then this church is in accord with Gods word (unless their roles are contrary to the bible). So if God himself doesn't give a clear structure maybe we can use what else he has given us aka his brain but we also must remember "Don't judge unless ye be judged" Mt 7:1.
@TheGreatProphecy
6 ай бұрын
So you down on Christian colleges that are more possible to enroll in, and then suggest ivy league schools 😂😂. I'm going to LU because I have GI bill and want to become a counselor and can't get into ivy. I am starting with a BA in Christian Counseling, then moving to M.A. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. How does this choice in University affect anything? They stand by Christian doctrines, and teach the bible and etc along with its core. IM just confused on why this was a topic?
@coffeehousedialogue5684
6 ай бұрын
Yeah, he lost me when he made that comparison. Ivy League is way too bloated at this point to be salvaged.
@jills1521
6 ай бұрын
I took issue with this area of his talk as well. Liberty is a solid place to get an education, on a beautiful campus, in gorgeous Virginia. Their tuition isn't outrageous and the COL in Lynchburg is fantastic.
@minmangful
6 ай бұрын
Me and my closest brothers and sisters in Christ have house meetings on a regular basis. We come together to discuss, pray, hold communion and help one another as the bible tells us to do. We uplift one another and we allow the holy spirit to work with us. Something that is difficult to do, though not impossible in larger congregations. We visit a variety of other churches. A lot of Baptist and Pentecostal as they are prevalent in our region, but otherwise any place the holy spirit may lead us. Our service and faith to God is genuine, and through the fruits of the holy spirit and where God leads us, we know that what we do is correct. Though we do not belong to any specific denomination, and we don't partake in a specific one. We come from all sorts of backgrounds, and we meet people from all sorts of backgrounds. We have baptised multiple in the name of Christ, and helped others grow their faith. We have preached and brought people into our faith, and parted ways with people who God had other places for. I do not believe house churches are wrong. It all depends on execution and right faith and reliance on God. It does take a serious faith in God to assemble however.
@andrewc956
6 ай бұрын
Man I love this channel. God is good.
@TemperedMedia
5 ай бұрын
I like pretty buildings as much as the next person, but if a house church is all a congregation can afford, is that just not good enough for God?
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
Philemon 1:2 - Apphia and Archippus’ house. “Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker, also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church that meets in your home: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 16:40 - Lydia’s house. “After Paul and Silas came out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house, where they met with the brothers and sisters and encouraged them.” Colossians 4:15 - Nympha’s house. “Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.” Romans 16:3-5 - Priscilla and Aquila’s house. “Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. Greet also the church that meets at their house.” Acts 20:7-8 - The disciples in the upper room. “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together.”
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
Exactly. It's ironic that this KZitemr, who claims to care about history and traditions, neglects these obvious passages of the bible. In my opinion, the modern church is the reason that Christianity is so weak in our society. It has become a spectator sport. Something you do on Sundays mornings to cross it off your checklist. Because of large church buildings, ministers spend more time thinking about raising money, than about spreading the gospel.
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
We need to fulfill the great commission and if our budgets and tithes are spent on maintaining a building then the cost per baptism is in the thousands. I don't trust it when people speak against house churches, but don't make any mention of the 1040 window or modern day missions. Many in this chat are unaware of disciple making movements, and church planting movements. @@nerychristian
@butterkan3584
6 ай бұрын
Do u plan on going to seminary
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
Research disciple making movements and church planting movements. When Jesus commanded the disciples to go out and make disciples he sent his disciples house to house Luke 10, because the gospel spreads quickly to whole families this way and entire households come to the faith.
@MenStandingInFaith
6 ай бұрын
Thanks for sharing. The fellowship you get from attending church is crucial for your spiritual life.
@lighthouseRM
6 ай бұрын
Love your content! I can listen to it and hear that you are impartial and you draw from scripture as well as actual trends in society and its a clear and logical conclusion.
@ralfbo685
6 ай бұрын
I would argue my house is God's house. God no longer resides within the temple, but our bodies when we receive the Holy Spirit. Thus, there is no New Testament necessity for a Temple
@mitchmclean5435
6 ай бұрын
What do you think about the plan of the Anglican Province of the Indian Ocean to plant 100 Anglican house churches in Mauritius and one in every district of the Seychelles?
@disguisedcentennial835
5 ай бұрын
7:00 Where does it say that? I can’t find any verse on it, and it goes against the Old Testament when God told people to take off their sandals.
@davidmckelvey2601
4 ай бұрын
Yeah, I'd like to know what verse he is citing. I can't find it. My best guess is it's a reference to Romans 14:5 but I think that's a stretch.
@DonPedroman
6 ай бұрын
Man, as a Spanish Catholic I see theese things and I bafle but at the same time look with eerie eyes, like the idea of a " home-church " is very unsetting to me
@reepicheepsfriend
5 ай бұрын
And I grew up in house church and a Catholic mass is very unsettling to me, but I am willing to accept you as a brother in Christ.
@prodbyBLV-oq1xu
6 ай бұрын
mr zoomer how can i join this server
@histrocas4193
6 ай бұрын
absolute W thumbnail
@A_Bad_OSC_Amimator
6 ай бұрын
I have a friend who’s parents are from Cambodia they converted to Christianity when they came her but since his mom isn’t good at English so his mom makes them listen to a church in Cambodia.
@Tsunami-dw3gq
6 ай бұрын
How do I join your minecraft server pls thx
@Tennishangman
6 ай бұрын
Dang. So the churches set up by the apostles weren’t legitimate churches. What a shame. Not saying house churches are even the best way today - I think there are several reasons to prefer other models - but your intro seemed to be a bit hyper-critical. Edit: I understand he backpedaled on this later in the video to clarify that he only felt this way about non-persecuted churches. However, that doesn’t excuse juxtaposing house churches with “real churches” in the intro. Despite his latter statements, he’s still saying in the intro that persecuted house churches aren’t “real churches” (even though these non-real churches are permissible in his eyes).
@thecoolbyzantine24
6 ай бұрын
so it appears you never talked about cells in monastic churches and weather that apply as some form of a house church and I was wondering if you had any opinions on that specification.
@Avion1776
6 ай бұрын
Another absolute banger. Coming from a Church of Christ background, we have never called ourselves denominational in the way that we don't have a ruling body over every congregation. Instead, wherever there are people with the fulfilled requirements, we establish elders and decans over each congregation. Even with a less institutionalized group, we easily raise hundreds if not thousands every Sunday. This goes to a non profit television program that brings in dozens and dozens of people, as well as helping brothren, and building churches in the Philippines, India, Kenya, Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico, and many more places. That's just our congregation of around 40 people. I agree with the thesis, but I wouldn't doubt what small groups can do.
@vashmatrix5769
6 ай бұрын
Saturday is the Sabbath. Pretty sure there were also Sabbath weeks. Sunday is "the Lords day".
@kriegjaeger
6 ай бұрын
"Retreating from" is separating from. We're not supposed to love the world and are to be apart from it. We can see how the world influences churches and if they refuse to listen what do you do? Separate. 🤷♂ But a "holy huddle" where you don't interact with society at all does no good either. Burying our talents or hiding a lamp under a bench we're warned against, we're supposed to be the salt and light of the world. So I think it really comes down to if any given Christian is listening to what God wants them to do in a given situation. Keep in mind that Christ himself did not reform the temple, they rejected him AND the apostles. What did the apostles do? They went to the churches and taught the truth until they were kicked out, didn't try to reform them. So what should we do? I figure listen to what God wants you to do.
@RallyTheTally
6 ай бұрын
I'd say do both. Go to Church on Sundays, but at home the mom can teach the kids some personal Bible lessons, and dad can sit in the corner and watch. And if your a adult have a personal Bible reading session for maybe 15 minitues to a hour. I do that it's fun.
@reepicheepsfriend
5 ай бұрын
I have to stop you right there. 100% I agree with at home Bible lessons. The WORST way to do them is to have mom teach and dad sit in a corner and watch. Fathers are the spiritual heads of their households. Children need to see their father taking the lead in spiritual matters. If mom is leading and dad is silent, it sends the message to kids that the ideas are tolerated but not the family's priority. If the dad leads and the mom takes a supportive role, it will set a much more serious tone.
@Scarecrow-sq1vh
6 ай бұрын
I want to start by saying that I do appreciate your work and desire to grow the Kingdom here on earth. It is a very important thing for us Christians to do and I do agree that retreatism is not the way to do it. There are a few things about this video I would like to talk about. First thing is that I do agree that a house church is not a good thing if that is the end goal. I would think this fits into similar categories of churches who meet in unconventional places as it is not something that should be the end goal of the congregation. There are scenarios in which they have their place. First one, I'm glad you mentioned, persecution. That is one thing that is one of the most overlooked human rights violations worldwide. Many people don't realize that ~360 million Christians face potential persecution daily. That's nearly 1 in 7 Christians. Those cases absolutely need to do house churches and us who aren't persecuted need to keep them in our prayers (Hebrews 13:3). Another situation in which this has it's place is in newer congregations. I recently moved to a new city and am attending church with a congregation that is still in its infancy and is currently renting out a movie theatre until we can find ourselves a building. For newer congregations looking to get up on their feet, having services at a house or in a non traditional location is absolutely something that is fine to do. It's just that if it's planned on being a permanent measure that it becomes an issue. Where I find the biggest disagreement with you does come down to the importance of the building itself and your views on non-denominational churches. To start with the building itself, while I am not opposed to beautiful buildings, it is not what is most important. God cares about the heart far more than about outward appearances (1 Samuel 16:7) and while that verse is talking about King Saul, it also applies to a church's congregation. Many church buildings are beautiful but have heresy being preached on the inside. I for one would rather be part of a congregation that preaches the word of God and tries to follow Him while meeting in a house than one who meets in a beautiful building and is rotten to the core. On top of that, one of our primary jobs as Christians and as the Church is to take care of the poor and less fortunate around us (Matthew 25:35-40). There are countless verses which talk about the early Church giving to the poor, and Jesus telling those who wish to follow him to sell everything and give to the poor. Based off of this, I do believe that it is more like Christ, which is who we are supposed to imitate, to focus money on taking care of the poor, rather than making a beautiful building. It is more like Christ to spend $10k on helping the poor rather than spending $10k on stained glass windows. Overall with this video, to sum up my beliefs, house churches if done as a way to retreat from society is wrong. You and I agree there. They have their time and place for persecution or as a temporary placeholder. But overall, God cares more about the hearts of the people in a congregation than the look of the building that they meet in.
@mostlikelyaperson2022
6 ай бұрын
This video is more of a critique of churches not in a mainline Protestant denomination, rather than house churches themselves. Granted, I'm not a mainline Protestant, so it seems we have different definitions of house churches. From my pov (as a church of Christ member), a house church is simply a church that meets not in a building, but this video seems to loop in any church that isn't a part of the mainline denomination into that definition. In defense of house churches: 10:58 I feel that the assumption that these house churches have no understanding of leadership model without being attached to a mainline denomination ignores that we have scriptures instructing us how to model church leadership and authority (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1). We also cannot ignore the reality that previously large churches are now losing members , and the challenges of maintaining buildings with the dwindling tithing/donations makes a return to house churches a better option than dissolving as a congregation. I have also witnessed house churches create new doorways to reaching new people who were previously wary or even hostile to churches due to bad experiences. To those lost people, house churches are far less intimidating than church buildings.
@heavens00
6 ай бұрын
Homeschooling is definitely the best way to do it.
@reepicheepsfriend
5 ай бұрын
100%. I don't really get what his problem with homeschooling is. Some other forms of "retreatism" I can understand more why he dislikes. But really? You're going to throw a 5 or 6 year old kid into a dumpster fire of an educational system and hope they are somehow spiritually mature enough not to be destroyed by it?
@JohnGisMe
6 ай бұрын
You forgot to put Baptist Churches in my entire region on the denomination map. May I suggest one that desperately needs to be revived?
@1988casco
6 ай бұрын
house churches: Ritz and Welch's for communion and it's all fun and games until someone baptizes the cat!
@sugarhaiku
6 ай бұрын
I have a shirt that says "Jesus is a relationship, not a religion". I haven't felt this called out since your "Why I'm not a Baptist" video lol 😅 My husband and I really love you and your videos and consider you a brother in Christ. Thank you for sharing some of your deep understanding of theology. ❤
@edwardlargent4144
6 ай бұрын
I really believe I say this with a right heart: You are arrogant in your beliefs and uncharitable toward legitimate expressions of the Church. Your influence has way outgrown your character. You may want to slow down.
@Abcdefghijajajaja
6 ай бұрын
Based
@mmtoss6530
6 ай бұрын
Some of this retreatism is so infuriating. I see some guy on Twitter saying that the PCA, NOT PCUSA, is a hopelessly liberal denomination and people should leave. If conservatives see 0.0000000000001% liberalism in their own retreatist denominations and run away from that, there is no hope. Although I'm personally not in the Reconquista, I pray it works, because this movement is now the only conservative network doing something about formally conservative institutions.
@CC-iu7sq
6 ай бұрын
You should do a pretty deep dive into the IFB movement (not the new IFB, ie: Steven Anderson followers, just mainstream IFB). The IFB, although they don’t typically adopt this home church, very well could be heading down this road. Retreatism in their circles has gotten really bad, and we’re seeing the full cycle of a Christian denomination go from full on revivalism and mainstream (popular) in the 1950s, to beginning their retreatism doctrine in the 1960s and 1970s (when the Bible was taken out of schools) and the furthering development of rock and pop in the 1980s (anti secular music) to the 1990s and the advancement of other Bible translations and Television (KJV only-ism and Anti Secular entertainment) and then from the early 2000s to today, it’s been anti everything and further distancing from the world. Which inevitably, will grow home church movement. Would love to see you expound on this for like 40 minutes lol
@Draezeth
6 ай бұрын
I made a long comment when this video came out, which seems to have been deleted. I hope this one gets seen and doesnt disappear. I've been in house churches my entire life, and I feel you've sorely misrepresented at least some forms of it in this video. You’ve only taken the time to consider a single positive of such churches (facing persecution), while there are many more, so let me enlighten you. House churches are not retreatist by default. Some may be, I'm sure, but in my 29 years of being in them, I have never heard retreatist philosophy among them. Rather, the goal of the house church is to emulate the early church in its healthiest form. The church's most explosive growth was in the house church phase, following the "house by house" principle in Acts. We follow the principle of the mustard seed, not allowing the birds of heaven (Satanic powers in Luke 8:5) to roost in our branches by growing too big. Instead, we stay small yet spread wide, meeting house by house, and coming together as one on Sundays in a larger setting. Consider some of the problems inherent to large churches. Costs aside, the environment is austere, and the functioning members are a minority. Your average Christian Joe will sit in his seat, look at the stained glass, the vaulted ceiling, listen to the minister of 40 years, and say to himself "what hope do I have to serve God, compared to all this?" And because he's a face in the crowd, who will fellowship with him to dispel such feelings? By contrast, I am seen and appreciated in my house church. The ceiling there is only a few feet over my head, and our elders do not over-function so as to quash the contributions of other members. Everyone gets a chance to speak on Sunday, and we get even more chances on other days of the week. In this environment, we foster a desire and capacity to serve the Lord in *all* members. Because we all can prophesy one by one (1 Cor 14:31). I am no one special. I'm not a genius. Im an average Christian in my church. Yet I go online once a week to teach Bible studies, where Christians twice my age are blown away by my knowledge and understanding of the Bible, and the strength of my relationship to God. The elderly from large churches, who ask *me* questions about God, despite being Christians from a young age. This is a shame on large churches! Their ministers and pastors schedule their sermons each week, but how often are the *needs* of the congregants actually met? Meeting in homes day by day, we are able to fellowship in spirit in an intimate way that allows us to meet our needs. Large meetings could never accomplish that. The church's beginings were humble. We have forgotten that. Zoomer has too. Yes, the early church gathered every now and then in the temple, but 1 Corinthians 14:23 doesnt say *"when* the whole church comes together," it says *"if".* Smallness and humbleness are protections against pride and hierarchy, which make churches rigid, and stifle the function of their members. Size and hierarchy is why the Catholic church resisted Martin Luther, and why other denominations subsequently rejected Calvin and other wonderful theologians. Beautiful churches are good for the soul. But humble churches are good for the spirit. Have a care which you are feeding.
@jills1521
6 ай бұрын
RZ, excellent content as always. However, I want to take you to task on something you said in this video about Christian universities. It was something to the effect of 'modern Christian universities are a joke' (at about minute 14). You then mentioned Liberty and Moody. I feel compelled to voice two objections: First, I object to your claim that Liberty is a joke. I raised 4 kids--3 of whom went to Penn State and were at the top of their class there (an engineer, an actuary, and a psyche major). One went on to get a master's at Liberty. It was an excellent school, and their campus is beautiful--you would appreciate the quality of their architecture and grounds. I know there are issues with Liberty, but to say it's a joke is unfair. Also, many college kids end up at an institution that may be 'less than' the top tier colleges, but are able to use that imperfect foundation to launch into a career path that is well-suited for them nonetheless. Second, I hope you'll always remember how the words you say could have a serious effect on people's lives. There may be a young person who heard you label Christian universities a joke, and that person might now choose a path for higher education at a secular/public institution because of what you said. Meanwhile there might be Christian parents who have been praying that student would choose a Christian college for any number of reasons--cost, location, church affiliation, Christian teachers, etc., and are now faced with a son or daughter who has been influenced by your words to choose a path that may not be best for them--'best' for an individual isn't always the 'best' or top tier institution. Do you want to have this responsibility? ( In some sense I think James 3:1-12 is relevant in this scenario). I love what you do, but please be very cautious with your words. You are at your best when you are pointing to what is good, true, and beautiful, and inspiring others to join you in that effort. Thanks for listening and keep up the good work. I'm praying for you!
@SalvationConquest
6 ай бұрын
“When they [Paul and Silas] had come out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house where they saw and encouraged the brothers, and then they left ” (Acts 16:40).
@Ampwich
4 ай бұрын
Isn't the Sabbath in traditional Jewish culture Friday night-Saturday night? And what about those serving in the church? It's kind of like work for them that particular day, so not sure the church day is necessarily one's Sabbath
@TheSunAnimation
6 ай бұрын
My grandparents as a church and a house because they don’t have enough money to buy a church a group of man stole there money and sewed them for no actual reason
@BioAbner
6 ай бұрын
Can you make a list for Mexico and Latin America?
@dominicadrean2160
6 ай бұрын
You know as a Young Man part of Generation Z and as a Christian I really don't have the time for church Fellowship evangelism or any of those things because I'm mainly occupied surviving and living in this country but also planning to leave it at the end of the year because I despise this country there's no future here so I am leaving
@adavidavis2762
6 ай бұрын
Where are you going?
@protestanttoorthodox3625
6 ай бұрын
Apostolic Authority and succession from Jesus is how authority is given from above… Credentials and fancy pieces of paper are nice and all… But they’re useless when it comes to spiritual authority.
@joelrobertsonmusic
6 ай бұрын
I grew up in a house church. The only positive was it taught us how to live as Christian’s in a community and doing life together. Outside of that it’s pretty unbiblical for the reasons they do it.
@CanadianAnglican
6 ай бұрын
I enjoy going to church in person in a church building. I can understand if someone lives in china and there’s government run churches but for those of us in countries with free access to worship in church buildings we really have no use or need for house churches. But to each their own.
@concernedliberal4453
6 ай бұрын
When are you going to build the Tower of Babel in Kingdomcraft?
@beyond0077
6 ай бұрын
“Spaces are not arbitrary, your church should be more beautiful than your house.” - Jonathan Pageau
@leadersofleaders
6 ай бұрын
Amen!🙏
@nerychristian
6 ай бұрын
I know plenty of churches that use office buildings and look like warehouses. Does that mean they are not real churches? I know many poor churches that meet in strip malls, yet they are more full of the spirit than congregations that meet in expensive and ornate church buildings
@reepicheepsfriend
5 ай бұрын
@@nerychristian "For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7
@superpaul968
6 ай бұрын
What are your thoughts on churches that close for snow and 0 degree weather?
@jeremywilliams5107
6 ай бұрын
If anybody wanted to come, there is a certain duty to open it, unless the situation is so bad that it isn't practical.
@jdotoz
6 ай бұрын
If getting there is impractical, it is reasonable to not go. That said, with most churches I have gone to, the pastor lived on site. The last place I lived where it snows, my pastor said that the church never cancelled for weather, but that didn't necessarily mean *we" had to be there.
@benferris3415
5 ай бұрын
A number of years ago my family was a part of a house church. The main premise's were to operate on an understanding of the church being a body rather than a place, having a higher emphasis on small group discussion and community and challenging/encouraging one another in ministering to our neighbors.
@williamnathanael412
6 ай бұрын
Do you take Rev. 11 as something in the future? Sounds premillennial, not gonna lie.
@marycumming8461
6 ай бұрын
I'm curious about how you got your definition of the Kingdom of God. I believe the Kingdom of God is where Christ was/the Holy Spirit is present, not something specifically physical right now. I do believe people too often start house churches, or personal "churches," far too hastily and out of hurt, rather than to truly honor Christ. That often leads to ignoring Scripture, or twisting it like a cult, at times...
@D.dot.
6 ай бұрын
Hey Zoomer, since it's an election year in the U.S, i think you should do a video on the history of the evangelical right wing, christian nationalism, and their allegiance to the Republican party. Or will that be too controversial??
@imaboss6244
6 ай бұрын
I was looking at your map and I’m wondering how these churches are selected and what criteria gets them on the map? I know you’re not a big fan of Baptists but I’m just surprised to see so few Baptist churches on the map and zero as far as I can tell in the Bible Belt. For example, my old church growing up (Pleasant Garden Baptist Church, southeast of Greensboro, NC) was as traditional as a Baptist church can get. They have a real church with a steeple and stain glass windows and everything, a choir, they sang hymns in the earlier service, and had conservative Christian beliefs. I think that should qualify a church to make the list, no?
@reveriestandard
6 ай бұрын
why do church's meet on Sunday instead of Saturday?
@andrewm8596
6 ай бұрын
where does it say that no ground is holier than another
@natalieoconnor7750
6 ай бұрын
Have been going to church for about 5 months, mind you, it’s a non denominational church, however they’re very passionate about what the early church intended to be back in the day. Which means strong community. We rent out a space for Sunday service, but we also have house church on Wednesday, which is simply a Bible study going over the scripture the pastor read that past Sunday. I like this structure mainly for two things; socializing with the community and building new relationships and digesting the material thoroughly. Being a new believer, I have a very limited understanding of the Bible, thankfully I have a community that, not only welcomed me, but is helping me have a cohesive understanding of God’s word. I always look forward to Wednesday house church just as much as I do on Sunday service.
@jfig3458
6 ай бұрын
My church sortve started as a house church. They bought a victorian house that was condemned. No one lived in it but it was a house. They did eventually build an extension where we now do worship. Although ngl i really dont like how it looks on the inside. Very plain. My catholic roots scream internal to decorate the church and add icons
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