O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Lead all souls into heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.
@pjelpers
8 ай бұрын
Putting this prayer in context with the video, if we can't have a reasonable hope for the salvation of all, wouldn't a prayer asking to "lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those in need of thy mercy" be an unreasonable prayer? If I say "I hope I win the lottery", I'd think most would consider this a reasonable hope, provided I've bought a lottery ticket. But if I haven't bought a ticket, it would be unreasonable to say "I hope I win the lottery". Because it's expressing hope in an impossibility. And that seems to be the main beef with the "reasonable hope" view; people see hell as being empty of human souls as an impossibility, and so hoping for it (and praying for it) would seem unreasonable (or even irrational, using Trent's term).
@anabrito1693
8 ай бұрын
In her memoirs, Sister Lucy says that they, the seers, understood that the prayer meant the Souls in Purgatory. That's why in Portuguese many people say "lead all little souls to Heaven", because that's a traditional and tender way that we use to mention the Souls in Purgatory.
@anabrito1693
8 ай бұрын
The memoirs were written by her by the request of the Bishop in order to have a testimony about her and her cousins, as no one knew how long she would live and also for Jacinta and Francisco's canonisation cause.
@femaleKCRoyalsFan
8 ай бұрын
@@anabrito1693that makes sense actually
@carlose4314
8 ай бұрын
thy mercy not they mercy
8 ай бұрын
I do hope that all are saved, but I try to remain aware that there is a real possibility that I become the first to enter hell.
@etienne-victordepasquale668
8 ай бұрын
+1
@levrai944
8 ай бұрын
There are many in hell, even if you were damned (God forbid) you would definitely not be the first. There are many souls there
@joelpenley9791
8 ай бұрын
Do you also hope that Satan is saved and not in hell? Why or why not?
@marietav7342
8 ай бұрын
If your hope is great, you will not be damned but saved.
@xaviervelascosuarez
8 ай бұрын
@@levrai944you cannot say that with the certainty of theological faith. You are free to conjecture. But you must hope, with the theological virtue of hope, that hell will be empty, because you must hope that all men will accept the grace of conversion. Otherwise, you would be hoping that some will not.
@roundtable3501
8 ай бұрын
I share such reservations. Although bishop Barron definitely doesn’t allow a view to hold back on evangelizing, as word on fire has helped many souls. Personally with the hope thing, I don’t think hope needs to be qualified with any adjective at all. Just simply you hope that all are saved.
@Lucylou7070
7 ай бұрын
Thank you.
@curiouschris98
8 ай бұрын
I think that Bishop Barron would really appreciate this response to his view. It’s well articulated and very respectful. I would love to see a dialogue between Bishop Barron and Trent Horne on this topic. I think it would be very fruitful and insightful. Good video, Trent!
@etienne-victordepasquale668
8 ай бұрын
No, it wouldn't. Trent is increasingly becoming legalistic and is falling into the error of hyper-rationalism. While his service has been precious, he is now corrupting it with a Pharisaic approach that besmudges his Christianity.
@tmur3403
8 ай бұрын
Honestly, I think it's one of Trent's sloppiest takes. His analogies are poor and his main argument is that hope makes you presumptuous.
@zuzaninha
8 ай бұрын
'How many will be saved' is a name of a sermon from 1 year ago where Bishop Barron talks about this topic once again. It is very clear - he is not talking about expectation, he is talking about hope. And the source? The Catechism of the Catholic church paragraph 1821 - In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved.
@peterbengtsson
8 ай бұрын
I would also like to see that dialogue in the future.
@emilio6425
8 ай бұрын
@@tmur3403i wouldnt agree thats his main argument. I think hes just discussing the view and problems with it. I think if asked he would say his main argument is its consistency with in christian tradition and the bible. He seems to point to that referencing Jesus mention of narrow vs wide path.
@jamessgian7691
8 ай бұрын
“For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.” G. K. Chesterton
@tonyl3762
8 ай бұрын
Just finished reading the chapter in Brothers Karamozov where Ivan rejects the harmony and concord in God's plan between victim (especially children) and perpetrator (chapter before The Grand Inquisitor). Seems Ivan, no friend of God, would also oppose the "dare we hope" view but from a different perspective.
@rafal2959
8 ай бұрын
That's an evil quote. No wonder most children go to hell under traditional Catholic beliefs (i mean, every mass we ask that our trespasses get forgiven as we forgive others and children love justice more than forgiveness so God casting all unbaptized and some baptized children into eternal fiery torment would be just!).
@sneakysnake2330
8 ай бұрын
@@rafal2959Yap yap yap
@robertkolinsky1286
8 ай бұрын
@@rafal2959no unbaptized child goes to hell.
@brandanimations3790
8 ай бұрын
@@rafal2959 " No wonder most children go to hell under traditional Catholic beliefs" absolute braindead and objectively wrong.
@koffeeblack5717
8 ай бұрын
I'm not convinced hopeful universalism negatively impacts evangelical efforts. Case in point: Bishop Barron,a hopeful universalist, is the most successful Catholic evangelizer of our times.
@jasonscranton2756
8 ай бұрын
I'd love to see you and Bishop Barron discuss this openly. Please, Lord, bless us with the spirit of your wisdom!
@swedensy
7 ай бұрын
You religious wakos!!! Santa aint real!!
@videonmode8649
8 ай бұрын
We hold out hope and pray for the salvation for everyone to be reunited with God. Although we can reasonably certain that not every single person can or wants to be saved, we should always pray for those in most need of God's mercy.
@MarkusFlaviusAntonius
7 ай бұрын
Hey Trent Thanks for your videos. Even though I was brought up Catholic and was blessed with a good education, it sometimes helps to listen to somebody with a very deep understanding of the subject.
@markpaalman275
8 ай бұрын
Trent, I hear you, but I can’t help but feel that you are straw-manning Bishop Barron’s position. I feel that his “reasonable hope” , if perhaps a bit pollyannish, clearly is not meant to exclude or discourage the faithful from orthodoxy and evangelization. His life and ministry are a living testament against that. Good bless you! ✝️
@springinfialta106
8 ай бұрын
There are two problems with those who don't believe in universal salvation: 1) No matter how evil a person is or how much death and destruction they were responsible for, the amount of harm they did is finite. Hell for eternity is infinite punishment which seems unjust for a finite amount of evil. 2) Those who deny universal salvation usually have a set of beliefs that if followed to their logical conclusion would imply that only a very tiny percentage of mankind ends up in Heaven. They will say that no one can know who will end up in Hell, but their theology pretty much says that almost everyone is going to Hell. It's sort of the reverse of the "dare I hope" concept. It's more like "dare I tell" everyone I meet that based on my theology they are almost certainly going to Hell.
@user-sf8mn9ed3d
8 ай бұрын
You have two presumptions that non-universalists wouldn't necessarily agree with. The first is that the evil was finite. If you limit your definition of evil to harm to other created beings, then possibly you're correct. If your definition includes "rejecting the infinitely good source of goodness itself" as evil, then you have a potentially infinitely evil act. The second assumption is that people would be in hell solely for some singular act (e.g., murder, or genocide), but if they are in hell because they continually refuse to repent of their evil (either they don't think it is wrong and refuse to acknowledge it, or they see it is wrong but still refuse to repent for it) then I don't think it would be unjust to continue punishment. If we had a way of knowing perfectly if some criminal was repentant or not and discovered that they felt no remorse for their prior crime and would commit it again if given the chance we may very well keep them locked up forever.
@whelperw
7 ай бұрын
@@user-sf8mn9ed3d, but condition is still accepting Christ, if you don't, you go to Hell regardless of what you did in your life. Which is why there are universalists, because they are terrified of idea, that most people are going to Hell for being non-christian. For them, THIS is not what All loving God will do.
@CappieBG
6 ай бұрын
The Bible does talk more about Annihilationism actually. ECT turns people away from God. No one can walk around with their atheists friends around knowing they would burn for eternity and keep his sanity. Also to add to your point he says " I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". Paul and Jesus in the parable of the talents talk more about a person being judged by the amount of knowledge and etc. So while we know that Sin must be punished with a substitute atonement in the OT and therefore the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT. He might judge people like the Jews back in the days of WW2 by a lower standard.
@lordanglish
10 күн бұрын
@@CappieBG The Bible doesn't talk about Annihilationism or Infernalism - it only speaks about Universalism. The Koine Greek only speaks about Hell being temporary and corrective - 'aion', an age and 'kolasis' correction; where God will refine the hearts of men - the Lake of Fire is the same, it being a word-picture used by John describing gold refinement. Annihilationist and Infernalist will never admit but they limit God; limit His mercy, His power, His knowledge, His presence and His love - either 'God' is weak and willing or 'He' isn't and is not willing, it's that simple.
@TravisD.Barrett
7 ай бұрын
Two questions: 1) If it doesn’t change their motivation for evangelism, do you think a Christian can PRAY that hell will be empty? (Is it a result we should even desire?) 2) Does hoping that hell will be empty affect any other doctrines, like Theology proper?
@NathanSkifton
8 ай бұрын
A very good response from the Councel. Bishop Barron has had a lot of influence on my spiritual growth and I’ve become sympathetic to the “dare we hope’ view. I, however, am very quick to let go of things outside my control or purview. People’s eternal destination is not for me to know or judge. I think people linger too much and try to extrapolate worldviews from a small hope. In fact, I think the focus should be the perception of hope. So Pope Francis has a fool’s hope in his personal life. Oh no! The horror! The hope is the worldview, not necessarily the factuality of the emptiness of hell. What is the alternative, hope that people are in hell? Furthermore, I would argue that ”empty” doesn’t necessarily mean a population of 0 either. If 20,000 people show up to the Super Bowl, we would call that empty. CS Lewis has a great image of hell as a wide “empty” city because no one wants to live next to each other. I always say there is value in what Barron and Francis have said, though I understand the concern from the populous.
@colmwhateveryoulike3240
8 ай бұрын
If God wills that all be saved then I try to do the same. I tend to assume the dare to hope position is trying to articulate that, with faith that it is justified even if we cannot quite grasp every nuance.
@thereluctantphilosopher5454
7 ай бұрын
So if God wills all to be saved then why aren't they? Can God's will be frustrated by a creature? Aquinas and Augustine hold not. (Cf. q. 19, a. 6: "Since, then, the will of God is the universal cause of all things, it is impossible that the divine will should not produce its effect.")
@colmwhateveryoulike3240
7 ай бұрын
@@thereluctantphilosopher5454 If reality were just two dimensional (figuratively, not scientifically speaking) then yes. But that would be kind of pointless and we would be effectively just robotic automotons. Bearing in mind that reality is caused by the will of God, who is Truth/Love - these being words we use to indicate the connectivity/integrity of all things - it becomes obvious to anyone who knows love that freedom of choice/self-determination must be involved. You can't force someone to love. You also can't force anyone to be moral even if you can sometimes limit their choices to rule out immoral action. A murderer in jail does not necessarily become moral just because they stop murdering. So God created us to love and be truthful but this involved freedom to choose. Choosing wrong knowingly is like tipping the first domino. We can't reverse the choice and it becomes increasingly difficult to choose right over wrong. God has created a solution. He condascended to become one with us and enter into our suffering and defeat death and give us a way out. Again though, this has to be a free choice. God wills that we all choose it and the deepest part of us does desire it but if we allow our pride and attachments and passions to overrule this then we can indeed disobey God's will for us to be saved, according to His will that we be free to love.
@Notbraydendantin
8 ай бұрын
Trent, have you read Dr Trent Pomplun’s essay on DBH’s book? It’s called “Heat and Light” and he proposes some interesting ideas about the magisterial language about hell and how it’s possible to interpret it as an incalculable amount of time instead of unending
@howardl9790
8 ай бұрын
Brayden
@rudyagresta
8 ай бұрын
I enjoy all of your podcasts. Your explanations are clear, logical, and sorely needed today. God Bless!
@lisabeck6264
8 ай бұрын
Great video Trent. You scripting these makes all the difference !!
@texasballistics
8 ай бұрын
Trent I’m glad your addressing these recent topics and not scared to do it. May God continue to give you grace to do so.
@edoardocono166
8 ай бұрын
The pope just said it has nothing to do with faith, it is just a thing he likes to think about. Thats it. I like to think about going to Heaven, that doesnt mean I know will be there. Faith and Thinking/Hoping is 2 different things.
@Datroflshopper
8 ай бұрын
I would say I fall into the category of "hopeful universalism" but you still have to acknowledge that some people will just genuinely want to reject God even upon seeing him, and this is an attitude that plays out during their lifetimes right up until their last breath. That being said I don't want to write on other people's hearts things I don't know 100%, and it's not impossible or heterodox to hope that their hearts aren't as hard as we think they are. So yeah, buy the powerball ticket if you want (I'll do it) but don't skip confession or mass just to go to the convenience store!
@josephmartin6219
8 ай бұрын
This answer from Trent is really close to what St. Thomas Aquinas would say on the matter! Thank God for your gift!
@thereluctantphilosopher5454
7 ай бұрын
No it's actually not at all. STA is a pure predestinationist who holds that God creates the reprobate from the outset and witholds the grace required for them to turn to God. Apart from God's action the creature cannot turn toward him, and this action is given selectively. But this is 'just' because God owes the creature nothing, so even saving a single person in all reality would be perfectly 'just.' Cf. ST I-I q. 23, aa. 3-5, ST II-II q. 109, a. 10, esp. ad. 1, and De Ver. q. 6.
@josephmartin6219
7 ай бұрын
@@thereluctantphilosopher5454 that's good to know
@evanwilton9569
5 күн бұрын
This is an issue I've had with Catholicism. I've thought that universalism was the universal thought. Thank you for saying this 🙏
@marietav7342
8 ай бұрын
The Church has not condemned or censored the book of Hans Urs Balthasar "Dare We Hope that All Men be Saved?" It means this book contains nothing contrary to faith. The Church even elevated Hans Balthasar by declaring him Servant of God. It means he is on the way to sainthood.
@robertlaprime6203
8 ай бұрын
Just because the church hasn’t formally condemned or censored something that doesn’t mean it didn’t teach heresy. I’m not saying it does I’m just saying that your reasoning is false. Also we have had saints that have believed in what we would now consider to be heresy. For example St. Thomas Aquinas denied the immaculate conception before it was defined by the church. Technically speaking the Summa Theologiae one of the most influential Catholic theological texts, the one they put on the altar with the scriptures at the council of Trent technically contains heresy. Although I’ll admit as in “Dare we hope” he did St. Thomas Aquinas also seemed to indicate that it was an open question the he wasn’t dogmatic about but it seemed hard for him to reconcile the immaculate conception with certain parts of scripture. And keep in mind this is not only a saint but a doctor of the church and in the writing which the church has held with greatest esteem he teaches heresy at one part. This immediately refutes the idea that “Dare we Hope” couldn’t have taught heresy.
@anthonyhulse1248
8 ай бұрын
@@robertlaprime6203 explain the heresy that Von Balthasar was teaching, with examples and citations from his books.
@marietav7342
8 ай бұрын
@@robertlaprime6203 If St. Thomas taught heresy, why did the Church canonize him? Your reasoning is incompatible with church teaching, hence, you were wrong. No. St. Thomas had not taught heresy because if he did, the Church would not have canonized him. No unrepentant heretic can be canonized by the Church and be made Doctor of the Church. His unbelief of the Immaculate Conception was not a heresy because the Church did not yet officially declare the Immaculate Conception as church dogma at that time. If that book of Balthasar contained heresy, the Church would have banned it long before as She did to other books. St. Augustine taught errors too but those are not heresies.
@marietav7342
8 ай бұрын
@@robertlaprime6203 If that book of Balthasar contained heresy, then, Balthasar would be considered heretic by the Church and he would not be declared Servant of God. What is heresy? After a teaching on faith and/or moral is proclaimed OFFICIALLY then to disagree and teach others becomes heresy.
@marietav7342
8 ай бұрын
@@robertlaprime6203 St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach heresy. If he did, the Church would not have canonized him. His unbelief of the Immaculate Conception was not heresy because this Church Dogma was not yet proclaimed officially at that time.
@sovereigndayyouthkafir3943
7 ай бұрын
My mother's brother left the faith and she is his caregiver now. She and i pray for him often. My younger brother also has left the faith, and I've tried evangelizing him back to Christ, but he's rejected my overtures; I don't know what more I can do beyond praying for him at this point.
@Ark_bleu
7 ай бұрын
This was a reasonable rebuttal but I thought Bishop Barron’s explanation was balanced and fair, especially since he lays out the heresies beforehand. (Particularly in his video from 12 years ago). He also gets more into the fact of what Hell *is* - the anguish experienced when one rejects God.
@atnyzous
8 ай бұрын
I agree with Trent 100%. The official church stance as I understand is, "we know some souls (saints) are in heaven with confidence, but we don't know who's souls are in hell" also we do know there is such a place as hell.
@brutus896
8 ай бұрын
We do know who is in Hell. It's the people who never repented and trusted in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation
@atnyzous
8 ай бұрын
@@brutus896 we know by name who's in heaven with confidence, but the church never declares anyone in hell by name. So the church position is that we don't know if Judas Iscariot is in hell or not. The Catholic church doesn't condemned anyone to hell nor has the power to do so. It's general believe that people who deny God chooses hell, however it is also a believe that some may have a change of heart even at the hour/moment of death and may be saved.
@brutus896
8 ай бұрын
@@atnyzous All that to say that you agree with me. 👍
@arthurw8054
7 ай бұрын
If many or most good people would hope that hell is ultimately empty, then wouldn't God, who has far more goodness than Man, hope for this even more fervently? The mere possibility that this could be so IMHO makes the hope "reasonable".
@SuperSaiyanKrillin
8 ай бұрын
Yeah i have never disagreed with Trent more - why is he assuming that the reality of all being saved is as probable as a powerball lottery ? Where is he getting this ? I would be curious to know if he equates hoping all of his children will be saved is as equivalent as hoping to win the powerball lottery
@Cklert
8 ай бұрын
"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." -Matt. 7:13-14. Jesus warns us constantly about Hell, and while he doesn't outright say there are specific people in Hell, he does make it blunt that there are many heading that way.
@mementomori5216
8 ай бұрын
I think Trent it right that people people won't interpret "reasonable" hope to mean that "reasons exist" but rather that "it's likely"... But saying "rational" hope is clearer is kind of just semantics. I would say it's still generally irrational for someone to think they 'will' win the lottery. You could argue to rational or even reasonable to think it's possible though... I guess we should resolve to saying "there are reasons it's possible, but no idea it's actually likely", even though that's less concise
@kenmarron1938
8 ай бұрын
Man o man is Trent Horn smart. I have seen a few videos discussing this very topic but Trent gives the smartest layout of the problem with a reasonable hope view.
@ChuckKnipp
22 күн бұрын
Love the thoughts of Rob Bell, Bishop Barron and the Pope..."could God really be THAT good?"
@zita-lein
5 ай бұрын
Really good! Let us work to prevent the worst and hope for the best. Glory to God! ❤️💙
@trevorpaolone1371
8 ай бұрын
I like to think of it as since no one during their life is ever beyond God’s mercy, and anyone could have a thief-on-the-cross type moment in the hour of death, even if it is in the last few seconds and completely internal, that we can hope that Hell is empty. Not that people are saved regardless of what they do but that we can hope everyone has an honest conversion before death. To me, that makes me feel like I need to evangelize even harder. You never know what you can say or do that could trigger a last minute honest conversion for a person
@21amdg
8 ай бұрын
I think the effect a "dare we hope" perspective could have as you describe is probable but doesn't seem to be the case with Bishop Barron. To borrow your analogy of the shipwreck. Having a hope the survivors made it to a deserted island and are alive is reason to keep the rescue search going. Similarly, we can hope that all men be saved and therefore be motivated to evangelize so that it may be true. I think Bishop Barron is more like that. Daring to hope doesn't necessitate a lack of evangelical fervor.
@blubblurb
8 ай бұрын
To be honest when I read about visions from hell and how much they suffer it's hard for me to believe some souls will spend eternity in hell.
@FSR431
8 ай бұрын
There needs to be distinction here. Hope is not a feeling. It is a virtue. So to reduce to that fails to understand what true hope is. So yes there is something wrong with hoping for everyone is saved. It is simply your personal feeling that defines an outcome that is left to God which is defined by radical biblical faith of true magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church on the Revelation of final things. Hope as defined here is at best simply wanting my personal sentiments and sensibilities to prevail over everything. How about dare we hope for the finality of God's Judgement to prevail?
@apoc9ify
8 ай бұрын
It's good Trent is addressing this. While the Church did not proclaim anybody to be in hell specifically it stands against reason to believe or even hope hell would be empty given the warnings of Our Lord, the Blessed Mother (in various apparations), Saints, Doctors of the Church and upon reflecting on wrong doings of past and present day.
@akprice17
8 ай бұрын
7:25 - “If I got to heaven and found out all people were saved… I would rejoice.” A few years ago I came to this same realization while reading love wins by Rob Bell. It’s a better story, even if it’s not scripturally viable. If the point of this video is that universalism is incompatible with Christian faith, then I refuse to be a Christian.
@LorenzoMelchionda-lp2cu
8 ай бұрын
The analogies with lottery and shipwreck are great, very intelligent.
@atanas-nikolov
8 ай бұрын
Yeah, but no. If we have an almighty God who is revealed to be Love, we kinda have a rigged lottery, no?
@LorenzoMelchionda-lp2cu
8 ай бұрын
Yeah, but maybe. Love and Justice, Mercy and Justice, Virtue and Justice cannot be separated, they go together. The quote from Chesterton reported in one of the comments that “For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy” is regrettably true, or maybe it is a facet of God's love who created the innocents to be elevated and us to exercise his Mercy. Maybe a partially rigged lottery? @@atanas-nikolov
@davidniedjaco9869
8 ай бұрын
I opt for the "medieval scare the crap outta you" view +++
@xenophonicus
8 ай бұрын
This "personal opinion" (never mind the clerical issues with Priests sharing personal opinions on theological issues) Francis shared is a very chaotic messaging to be expressing from the successor of St Peter, whom Jesus described hell to personally, without any indication that it was, or would ever be, empty. What is the point of his sacrifice if everyone is saved? My issue with this controversy is that it comes from the mouth of the Pope, who should not be sharing personal opinions that contradict Church tradition. Hasn't the Holy Father caused enough chaos? I pray for his conversion daily.
@alessiomanetto8695
6 ай бұрын
"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to" Luke 13, 14. Unless the original Greek text says something different Hans Von Baltasar's ', Dare we hope' contradicts Scriptures.
@HolyKhaaaaan
8 ай бұрын
I have a hope that it's possible all men are saved, but it has no probability attached because the lynchpin seems to be human free will, and that is impossible to predict. I like to believe that God has the wherewithal to fish a man out of his own ego, who turns to it for things he ought to turn to God for. But it's certainly possible he might refuse, flatly, for reasons other than just fear.
@tmur3403
8 ай бұрын
I don't see what the problem is. Seems like Trent is equating hope with presumption (presumption is actually a sin against hope). His argument is that hoping all are saved means in practice that I no longer need to work out my salvation in fear and trembling, but wouldn't that be presumption rather than hope?
@josephmoore5949
8 ай бұрын
I think the concern is that promoting this kind of hope that all can be saved may lead to some falling into presumption.
@carsonianthegreat4672
8 ай бұрын
The Church does not teach that any particular individual is in Hell (there is no anti-canonization process), but the Church does teach that Hell is not empty (there will be/are some unidentified souls that will be there for eternity). We can reasonably hope that all particularized persons are saved, but we cannot hope that the sum total set of souls are saved. I can reasonably hope that all my triplets become valedictorian, but I cannot hope that the whole of set of all my triplets somehow became valedictorian.
@jaqenhgar2264
4 ай бұрын
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
@beutner
8 ай бұрын
Well said, Trent! I appreciated that the “reasonable hope” thought could bring comfort to grieving family members who have lost someone to suicide and/or overdose deaths. I do think there is a “reasonable hope” in these cases as opposed to an automatic assumption of eternal damnation. However, to hold a “reasonable hope” that ALL are saved always stuck me as incredibly naïve. I would never opine that a specific person is damned but there is too much discernable evil in the world and outright rejection of faith for there not be consequences for it.
@taggartaa
8 ай бұрын
You missed the whole point I think. The question is not whether there are consequences, but whether there are indefinite consequences for it. For instance, let's say a child lied to their parent, and the parent puts them in time out for 30 minutes. Would you say that there was no consequences for the childs actions since eventually the timeout will be over?
@ZohanFall
5 ай бұрын
I'm catholic and I know that hell ain't empty , but there is hope that it might be empty ,the same way the Bible says in John 3:16 ".... Who ever believes MIGHT be saved ,not WILL BE saved". So everyone hopes for the best in this case we hope those who died are in heaven..but we do know people go to hell .
@martinmartin1363
8 ай бұрын
The idea that the bible doesn’t say who is in Hell opens up other questions like Jesus never said l am God he implied it like he implied that many go to Hell, so we have to look to apostolic traditions from the church fathers, those who still had the words of the disciples ringing in their ears.
@RodrigoSousaDigoDego
8 ай бұрын
The Fatima Prayer WAS altered and the version we have today is NOT what our Lady taught the 3 shepherds. The original form, which first appear on written text in 1921 on Father Manuel Formigão's book about his inquiries on the Fátima Shepherds, is the following: “O', my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell and RELIEVE the souls in PURGATORY, especially those who are MOST ABANDONED”. We ALL should ask ourselves, who was the “genius” and who had such a “brilliant” and audacious idea to change OUR LADY'S WORDS in the Fatima Prayer to the current form? And WHY? What was the motive to change "RELIEVE THE SOULS IN PURGATORY" to "LEAD ALL SOULS TO HEAVEN"? Who was behind the change that opened a HUGE crack in catholic theology where heretical ideas, such as "There We Hope Hell is Empty" et caterva, could FLOURISH??? We need to go back to what our Lady, who is the model theologian and destroyer of all heresies, taught us: Lex orandi, lex credendi In the book written by Father Manuel Nunes Formigão, The Wonderful Episodes of Fatima ("Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima"), published in 1921 by Empresa Veritas, on page 20 we CLEARLY SEE that the prayer the shepherds told Father Manuel Formigão (who had the pseudonym VISCONDE DE MONTELO) was quite different from what was given to the faithful later on and that is prayed today. Father Formigão wrote down the prayer on the VERY year of the apparitions (1917), since he was the cleric sent by the Diocese of Leiria, in 1917, to investigate the three little shepherds of Fátima and assess the veracity of the apparitions. For those who want to check for themselves, down below are the links of the book. Go to page 20 and you will see at the top of the page what the prayer taught by our Lady was: www.scribd.com/document/511977615/Visconde-de-Montello-Os-Episodios-Maravilhosos-de-Fatima-1921 Or if anyone wants to download the whole book in PDF, you can use this link bellow: www.valde.com.br/public/fileadmin/user_upload/Os_episodios_maravilhos_de_Fatima_-_A4_para_impressao.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ Down below there is an excerpt of the part of the book I told you guys. The English translation, made by myself just for you guys, is inside parenthesis: -Ensinou-te alguma oração (Did She teach you any prayers)? -Ensinou, e quer que a recitemos depois de cada mystério do rosário (She taught it, and She wants us to recite it after each mystery of the rosary). -Sabes de cór essa oração (Do you know this prayer by heart)? -Sei (I know). -Dize lá (Say it, then). . . -Ó meu Jesus, perdoae-nos, livrae-nos do fogo do inferno e aliviae as almas do Purgatório, principalmente as mais abandonadas (O', my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell and relieve the souls in Purgatory, especially those who are most abandoned).
@spiderdxn2263
8 ай бұрын
I don't usually disagree with your videos, Trent, but on this one, I will take Barron and Von Balthasar over your explanation. I give you credit for actually working through Dare We Hope though, most critics just screech about heresy and never read it. I think my main disagreement with you is in the consequences section. I don't know anyone, myself included, who adhere to Von Balthasar's viewpoint, who pack it up and go home because of the view. I HOPE that all might be saved; that doesn't mean I'm not regularly going to confession, evangelizing, and living out my faith. As you pointed out, Dare We Hope isn't univeralism. I would much rather live in a joyful hope, than the misery that the massa damnata crowd seem to live in.
@TheCounselofTrent
8 ай бұрын
Thanks for your perspective. I noted that people can have this view and still carry out the Great Commission. My concern is that the view is easily abused and leads to less urgency on those matters.
@mytsarkowzky3174
8 ай бұрын
@@TheCounselofTrent But isn't hell equally abused into despire and hopelessness? People tend to take their position on either side of the fine line
@spiderdxn2263
8 ай бұрын
@@TheCounselofTrent here I am just geeking out that my favorite apologist just replied to me!
@loganjackson675
3 ай бұрын
@@mytsarkowzky3174agreed, I think you point to why language around both extremes can be dangerous. I’d argue that the most prudent approach here is to showcase both justice and mercy as essential and joined together. Personally, I’d point to the Calvinist view when it comes to the more despairing end of the horseshoe. As they say “Universalism is Calvinism with more mercy” 😂
@bethanyann1060
8 ай бұрын
The lottery analogy is spot on. Thanks Trent!
@ralphschofield
7 ай бұрын
Good distinctions here. Beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal law doesn't mean you've eliminated all possibilities but rather all those possibilities that are exceedingly unlikely.
@Devoted_Catholic777
8 ай бұрын
What the pope said is absolutely correct! You should hope no one is in hell! Why would you hope someone is in hell that is contrary to love. You must desire everyone be deemed worthy of heaven
@patrickcompton8024
8 ай бұрын
This seemed like an unnecessary episode. It seems like it’s content just for the sake of content. On the same day this was released as a podcast episode, warning that Bishop Barron’s views could lead to a lack of evangelism, Bishop Barron’s Word on Fire Sunday Sermons podcast released his recent homily titled, “Pray, Serve, Evangelize”. Maybe this Counsel of Trent episode should’ve been shelved for a bit, and discarded entirely.
@bane1504
7 ай бұрын
There is a parallel that can be made on what you said, if on the contrary we let despair that "many will be lost" take over our mind and thus not bother with evangelising those who we believe to have a mere "powerball lottery" chance or worse of being saved, that would be just as bad. The point is, no one is beyond saving, and we ought to evangelise as such. And since no one is beyond saving, it is in fact "reasonable" (as per Bishop Barron's definition) to have hope for all to be saved, because it is possible and through God the impossible is made possible.
@Eye_of_a_Texan
6 ай бұрын
"Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. 17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one's work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here." 1 Peter 1 DRB
@joksal9108
8 ай бұрын
I think Trent is missing the point. This is in God’s hands-the Powerball analogy is radically inappropriate. How likely is it that ANYONE is saved? We’re all born under a curse. Yet we know at least some people will be saved. No one knows how many-least of all Trent Horn. It’s not simply a silly hope that all might be saved, but acting on the desires of God that all might come to repentance, and praying and acting accordingly. Isn’t praying that everyone be saved part of the work of evangelization? Trent should have Bishop Barron on his show to address his (Trent’s) muddled thinking on the subject.
@richgehan2679
7 ай бұрын
Matthew 7:13-17 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [a]Because narrow is the gate and [b]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
@jaimeperez2496
8 ай бұрын
I am not an expert. Nor I heard exactly all the words of Pope Francis. But I speak spanish and the expressions “es vacío” y “está vacío” are two different things. If Heaven is the full presence and love existence that fills all and everyone; what is hell? The opposite; is said in spanish “es vacío”. “Es” is different from “está”… I guess that is the simplest way to understand what he want it to express…
@chrisflanigan7908
7 ай бұрын
Excellent point
@thatpoignantpenguin769
8 ай бұрын
If i had a nickel for every time someone uses ‘heretical’ when they mean ‘i don’t agree/understand it’ I’d probably have a private yacht by now
@sewwhat6525
8 ай бұрын
Nineveh is the clear example of imminent destruction changing due to sincere and total repentance from everyone begging for forgiveness not hoping it won’t happen
@thereluctantphilosopher5454
7 ай бұрын
The condemnation of Ninevah was not conditional, i.e., God didn't say 'If you repent I'll spare you.' He said that they . Yet, God doesn't do that. How? He is immutable after all, so we cannot say that he changed his mind.
@sewwhat6525
7 ай бұрын
@@thereluctantphilosopher5454 You can absolutely say God “changed” by His actions just as he wouldn’t have destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah if there had been a handful of righteous people, as He oftentimes relented from punishing His people in His divine mercy
@thereluctantphilosopher5454
7 ай бұрын
I'm referring to God's immutable essence. I think we only disagree in words. @@sewwhat6525
@HansUber-p2s
28 күн бұрын
0:04 I really do hope so that all will be redeemed, and souls will be reconciled with God and will be unlost.
@ivanos_95
8 ай бұрын
So far as you've the purgatory, you can propose that nobody goes to hell, and this wouldn't work only in the Orthodoxy, where we've no such thing as purgatory, so everyone except the Saints goes either to hades, or to hell.
@ProjectMysticApostolate
8 ай бұрын
Great video Trent. God bless you.
@johnchung6777
6 ай бұрын
Yeah here’s another thing I’m so very curious about and that is when it says in scripture that God repented that he made man because of the Hardness of their hearts,woe what does that mean and why did he say that?
@polaroctoct7429
8 ай бұрын
Thank you Trent for your videos!
@randomstuff-hl7uc
5 ай бұрын
Honestly, everytime i read about Hell, i just despair. I'm losing my faith frankly, and i don't understand. I was drawn to Christianity out of hope, but it seems there truly is no hope. Life is miserable, and awful frankly, in my reckoning, and i do not see how it can be made better. Especially if i think that Hell could just be brimming full of souls. Why doesnt God extinguish souls? Why torture them for eternity? I've heard the arguments, but it just doesn't make sense. I can actually understand Hitler burning in hell. That makes a kind of sense. But an atheist 18 year old who was raised atheist by his parents masturbates and then dies in mortal sin and goes to hell too? Seems imbalanced. And yeah, some of you will say "well, we dont know the mind of God, or the heart of the kid, or perhaps not even the heart of Hitler, and God's mercy is so huge, that who knows?" But then you turn around and say "but Catholicism / Christianity is the way, so we better anxiously convert as many people as we can, because in all likelihood, the atheist kid went to hell cause no one taught him about Christ". How can you live like this? I'm Catholic, but I'm about to lose it. I can't do it anymore. It feels like fear and anxiety cult. And i dont even think there's anything better. It's just i dont believe in Gods mercy, or that the Gospel is actually good news. It's just news that maybe a couple people here and there will get it right and the rest... well shoot. I don't get it. I don't get this world. I wish i didn't exist, especially if I'm gonna end up in hell.
@mytsarkowzky3174
3 ай бұрын
I don't know what kind of hope attracted you towards Christianity. But here is why it is your only hope. Life is miserable and frankly awful and there is no way it can be made better because you lost your inheritance to a perfect life when your father Adam squandered it by rejecting God the giver of life. As sons of Adam we are 'metaphysically' destained to be in hell (separate from God). But God in his mercy then 'elected'/ willed (not same as our choosing between two options) to send the son and save us all. So, he has already elected us ALL, the entire humanity. Individually that translates to each one of us in whatever state of 'death' we are in, has a 'hope of being saved'. our salvation is 'effected" individually by our election to be transferred from Adams corporality to Christ's by FAITH. Expecting this salvation even if we do not choose the transfer is like expecting an all-powerful God making a rock that he cannot lift, it is a logical, metaphysical impossibility (grace perfects nature, does not violate it). Even when we can hope all will be saved, a hope in an empty hell is possible only if we don't have free will. That some will reject the salvation is a constant teaching in tradition even when we cannot know somebody is in hell or if anyone is in hell. Now do you want be seperate from God? If you don't want to then there is only one option for entire human family..to be in Christ. Because Christ is God. How can be in Christ? By consuming his body and blood. Or eucharist..you exchange your old' flesh' that you got from Adam for the new 'flesh' from Christ. That is why baptism is your rebirth, rebirth from flesh to spirit, from bondage base desires of flesh to higher goods of spirit as Jesus said to Nicodemus nobody can be saved unless they are born again by spirit. By a virtuous sacremenatl life you become Christ..that my dear friend is your only way out of death. You don't need to do anything, infact you can't do anything..that is exactly what you need to accept..it will take time ..pray rosary 'Soul' / spirit metaphysically is immaterial that is not made of matter..it cannot be 'extinguished'
@anthonyhulse1248
8 ай бұрын
Pope Francis has talked about Hell far more than most other recent Popes. So, take him in context. And, maybe, knowing about Hell has led him to hope it is empty. Would you rather he hoped it was full? Come on, this is a false dichotomy you are setting up here.
@anthonyhulse1248
8 ай бұрын
When I was in formation with the OFMs, my formation director repeated again and again: "Hope hell is empty, but behave as if you are in imminent danger of going there."
@PraiseChrist4Ever
8 ай бұрын
Enough of this. We can hope hell is empty So what We know it’s not empty but we can hope. God is merciful and just. He will decide.
@MRD92
7 ай бұрын
Great video. The only critique is that “reasonable” and “rational” are still pretty interchangeable terms. Perhaps it should be a reasonable hope v. a possible hope
@DetectiveThursday
8 ай бұрын
Trent has been on fire lately
@gaberelich
3 ай бұрын
We should not have any hope whatsoever that hell has an empty population. We should find beautiful the fact that every kind of love is found in God. And love that is not reciprocated, is one such love. It befits the divine perfection to manifest that love, which necessitates a population that, of free will, does not return that love.
@Bonifatus
8 ай бұрын
Trent, I think this discussion plummeted into a argument over semantics, you argue the probabalistic argument, which Bp. Barron explicitly disavows and then quibble over word choice. You may even be correct on both, but saying that the words Bp. Barron used don't mean what he says they mean is only an argument that his word choice was clunky, not that he's incorrect. Aside from that, anybody I've ever seen argue Bp. Barron's point doesn't seem to take it as an excuse to be lax in our evangelization (I mean, look at the work of Word on Fire for instance), but simply a cause for hope that somebody who seemed to have died separated from God *might* not be eternally lost. I know that, while personally I concur with Bp Barron's view, I also concur with your probabilistic arguments. We can have a reasonable, or rational if you prefer, hope that all men *might* be saved, but to gamble on that would be foolish because it's gambling with unfathomable odds and it even seems likely to our mortal perception that all men are not saved, it seems to require frequent and extraordinary dispensations of grace in the last moments of the most obstinate sinner's lives in order for all to be saved. Thus, since we know the Church is the only sure path to salvation and we should pull as many people onto that path as possible. The two positions don't have to, and shouldn't, conflict. We pray for all, refrain from wishing hell upon anybody, hope that even the most obstinate sinners might be saved through extraordinary means, and bring people to the true path. I think the position that claims confidently that many are damned is just as destructive to the spiritual life in its extreme, creating a privation of charity, even if it may be the more likely of the two options.
@SkateTroe
8 ай бұрын
So, as a “dare we hope” type myself, it sounds like you’re saying such a belief is okay as a mere comforting thought, as long as it is not the belief that you act upon. Is that accurate?
@michaelman957
8 ай бұрын
I think Bishop Baron really should have just phrased it as you suggested, as a rational hope rather than a reasonable one. Given how often he talks about the horror and danger of hell, I suspect that's closer to his real view. That's at least what I got from reading his website. But I could be wrong. Either way, you break it down well. Is it possible? Yes. Should we bet on it? Heck no. Should we pray for all souls, deceased or not, even and especially those far from God? 100% yes.
@wms72
8 ай бұрын
Going to Heaven isn't like winning the lottery
@NTNG13
8 ай бұрын
People with this hope seem to forget that people in Hell are deserving of it and they hate God even more when they're there. They were judged by the Supreme Judge who cannot make mistakes and is with the righteous. Do they think God would allow someone to be in Hell by mistake? What type of logic is that
@1001011011010
8 ай бұрын
Well no, but they hope nobody is so deserving of Hell like that. It may be hard for them to imagine people genuinely hating God, and not just false concepts surrounding Him
@realzhella6817
8 ай бұрын
Because according to catholic teaching everyone outside the catholic church will go to hell...even if they have never heard of Christianity and have always led a good life loving whatever God is there or others who lived for christ in other denominations. So it doesn't make sense. So for u to say everyone in he'll deserves it far fetched
@joaocarlosdarosafagundes7482
8 ай бұрын
One shouldn't hope for an unrepented sinner going to heaven, but one could, in principle, hope for all sinners to repent at least at their last moment - by a special grace of God -, and then go there, probably after purgatory.
@ShiniGuraiJoker
8 ай бұрын
@1001011011010 right? Heaven forbid people have more empathy than the god they worship.
@michellelaudet5363
8 ай бұрын
@ShiniGuraiJoker you are ridiculous. While you are trying to appear clever, you made a fool of yourself. Empathy? All you bring is judgement, unthinking judgement. LOL. Or should I have pity on you, because you are so sure of how correct your views are...
@EMBMAXIM..
8 ай бұрын
It was all about - hope / wish so...
@joelpenley9791
8 ай бұрын
Thank you Trent. I think this “dare we hope” philosophy has negatively effected Bishop Barron as evidenced when he told Ben Shapiro that Jesus is the “privileged way”. Ben doesn’t need to convert, he doesn’t need to accept Jesus and be baptized because Bishop Barron believes that all will saved. Truly dangerous.
@ikkinwithattitude
8 ай бұрын
Is it even remotely likely that attempting to push Ben Shapiro to convert would have resulted in his actual conversion? Bishop Barron focuses on The Beautiful as the most effective way to draw people to God because he understands that it's practically impossible to convince someone of something that they desperately want not to be true. And someone whose community is largely composed of people who are assumed to be damned under the infernalist position is inclined to desperately not want that to be true. Can it be done? Sure, if the potential convert comes from a community that clearly already exists on the threshold of Hell (the position of most of the early pagan converts). But it's wildly unlikely when the potential convert comes from a traditional/cultural context which possesses enough of the Truth that only a God less merciful than your average human being would judge all members who remain in that community worthy of eternal torture. So "God will try to save you with whatever portions of the Truth you have available, but the Church is the only place with the entirety of the Truth and therefore the place where you've got the best odds" is a much more compelling proposition. (On a related note, I think that the "Dare we hope?" position itself is in much the same category. It's a means by which to combat the widespread cultural consensus that it's preferable to believe human beings are ultimately annihilated and hence no longer suffer than to believe that human beings can suffer forever. "Maybe God doesn't want humans to suffer forever and He's powerful enough to get what he wants" has the benefit of at least being more desirable than annihilation to virtually everyone.)
@joelpenley9791
8 ай бұрын
@@ikkinwithattitude all things are possible with God. We are called to preach the Gospel. Telling Ben that Jesus is the privileged way, and that Ben can still go to heaven without converting and accepting Jesus is the antithesis of the Gospel. Has Bishop Barron (and you self) not read St Paul?
@ikkinwithattitude
8 ай бұрын
@@joelpenley9791 If all things are possible with God, God can save people who don't say the magic words. ;) Bishop Barron's position is based in the idea that, because Jesus is the Logos, it's possible to accept him and convert one's life accordingly even in the absence of historical knowledge about Jesus. The story of Christ appears in veiled form all over the place, with the Old Testament giving the fullest version prior to the time of Jesus. So a Jewish person who didn't reject the historical facts out of a resentment of God and sought to live the story of Christ as depicted through the story of the Exodus could be saved by the historical actions of Christ due to their belief in the same underlying Logos. The main benefit of this is that it keeps the dogma that salvation comes through Christ while avoiding the weird and uncomfortable idea that someone who, if they met God and received infallible historic knowledge, would put their faith in Jesus, is damned anyway because of circumstances preventing them from attaining that historical knowledge before they die. Because the latter makes no sense whatsoever for a merciful God who wants everyone to be saved, whether some people reject Him forever or not. I think what the concept of the privileged path is meant to get across is that the Church has the greatest amount of truth about Christ and therefore is able to avoid more pitfalls that can lead one to reject God than any other belief system. And ultimately, the only good in any other belief system comes from the limited truth it contains about Christ, so no one is saved apart from Christ regardless.
@SeasideDetective2
6 ай бұрын
What I personally "dare to hope" is that people who go to Hell are, in fact, happy in Hell. They have chosen Hell, and why would they choose something that wouldn't make them happy? And why would they want to be with people who disdain them for all eternity? The playwright Jean Cocteau famously said that he probably didn't want to go to Heaven, because all the critics who said his plays were obscene and sacrilegious would be there to torment him.
@CanditoTrainingHQ
5 ай бұрын
That's probably the most heretical view possible. Nothing good can exist without God. You're implying happiness without God is sensible. It undermines what God and love are. Also the idea that because 2 people choose something, tbe outcome should work for both immoral parties, has countless real world analogies for why it doesn't always work that way. Wrong decisions exist.
@SeasideDetective2
5 ай бұрын
@@CanditoTrainingHQ That's partly my point. Bad people like what is bad, so it makes them happy.
@Debra-k5s
8 ай бұрын
They are wishing no one in hell that's ok they are not saying that hell is empty once again Catholics getting their selfs known thru pope Francis, sincerely yours Debra Logan
@ChrisBurton-mf3gk
8 ай бұрын
I don’t understand how we can have a reasonable hope that all men will be saved because Jesus himself taught that on the day of judgment there would be some who are cast into the everlasting fire.
@MrPeach1
8 ай бұрын
nice Galligan's Island reference. I loved those reruns when I was younger.
@sketchartist1964
8 ай бұрын
Its not hard to believe that many souls will fall into hell when you consider how so many in the world today literally hate religion and God. These godless trolls are all over the Internet.
@Centurion556
8 ай бұрын
I just think the idea is fundamentally pointless- like why would a non-christian fundamentally change their life if they aren't going to hell anyways. I don't think the ideology is good for the masses, as instead of calling someone to a higher standard like Christ does in the gospels, we call them to do nothing (at the least this is likely the perception of the masses).
@StudentDad-mc3pu
6 ай бұрын
Eternal punishment for finite sins is a huge moral issue.
@toddvoss52
7 ай бұрын
Trent’s criticisms would also seem to apply to Benedict’s apparent view as expressed in Spe Salvi which is the view I tend towards . What say you Trent?
@Randman64
7 ай бұрын
I’m glad the pope said this. I pray that this is true. I am terrified of thinking that people on are in hell. I pray and trust in Christ. I do my best to be obedient to the gospel. I fast and go to confession. But, sometimes I lust after women. I do my best to resist. Father Casey had a great video on not being separated from God. I really don’t care about going to heaven because of golden streets. I just Never want to be separated from God Christ is the creator all goodness.
@netherworldofmind7402
8 ай бұрын
What a lot of people hoping hell is empty are missing is this: a lot of people will be in hell not because God isn't good and mercyful enough, but because every person has inherently the liberty and the possibility to accept God or to reject Him in an absolute way, where the fact that we are conscious or unconscious of it is indifferent. In our life we can do a lot of things regarding ourselves and others, but some of them, like being ethycal, developing faith, pray, understanding and seeking God and His salvation, all those things trascend the reality of our world, which ultimately is an illusion made of illusions (both in a physical and intellectual sense). I would say that we let our soul becoming these trascendent things (or their opposite, if we do their opposite), and our soul is what we are when taken away from this world, in a reality where only God truly exists. There, God will see in every soul if and how they belong to Him, and He will put us within Him, inside real existence, or aside, in this place that we can picture as hell (philosophically, the realm of all other things that exists because of the omnipotence of God, but that the Logos of God has deemed unworthy of existence in logic, order and harmony)
@OtherSideAus
8 ай бұрын
What’s with your obsession with hell? Is it that your ego wants to keep heaven just for you because you have been “good”? You ignore the completely impossible reconciliation of the CORE TEACHING of Christianity - forgiveness and redemption - with the idea of eternal suffering that cannot ever be forgiven or that a soul could never find redemption from. So your premise is absurd. The Catholic idea of purgatory is based on valid scripture and - more importantly than anything - is logically consistent with a loving father that expects us to be earnest and good, does not forgive without genuine contrition and remorse, but ALWAYS allows for forgiveness and redemption. As for using “the lottery” as an analogy? You’re kidding, right?
@JuanCarlosYes
8 ай бұрын
Another real problem, I believe, is to assume that everyone who reasonably, rationally, or in other ways hopes that no one is in hell is necessarily careless or relativistic about evangelization. I don't think anyone who loves all men wants to picture even one soul in hell, simply because they don't want to become judges who can say that anyone in particular is/was more worthy of hell than themselves. As long as we take hell and salvation, sin and grace, seriously, this isn't but a sign that we care about others, even if we know that there is a real possibility that there could be countless souls in hell.
@poetmaggie1
8 ай бұрын
I think the arguments about what Barron said helped me realize what a morass I was stuck in. God does not quibble humans quibble.
@KetchupReturns
8 ай бұрын
I like to think God wants hell to be empty, and I share in my Lords desire. I think He gives the graces necessary here on earth for that to be made possible. Therefore I must cooperate with His grace, for my own salvation and the salvation of all souls
@rickardoribeiropinto
7 ай бұрын
"And they came upon the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire." (Apocalypse 20:8-15). How can there be a "reasonable hope" Hell is empty? Did St. John the Evangelist just lie?
@djsanctus1650
8 ай бұрын
Well that's cool! My sister made it into the video! Sisters of life in the procession clip at 7:44
@gfujigo
8 ай бұрын
The thirst for eternal torment is fascinating. We are supposed to believe that God will torment hordes of folks for eternity and somehow this is a good thing for finite creatures. You should invite David Bentley Hart on to debate him concerning universal salvation.
@thereluctantphilosopher5454
7 ай бұрын
Yup. Somehow as Aquinas says, the eternal torture of many people is to showcase the glory of God. Cf. ST I-I q. 23, a. 5, resp. And somehow I'm supposed to love my neighbor as myself while at the same time abandoning him to eternal torture as I rejoice in this in the eschaton (ST Supplement q. 94) which I would never do to myself.
It's sad how much justification goes into justifying that some people "hope" that all will be saved. Jesus said "many" go in the way of "destruction" whereas "few" go in the way of "life" . If Francis was not the pope, why would I ever hope that Jesus was wrong? Why would I hope God to be wrong? 😳
@kurtschneider4202
8 ай бұрын
I would qualify the "dare we hope" view. I would qualify it with we hope that all will repent and thus all will be saved. To hope that certain individuals do not repent is incompatible with love, since love is to will the good of another, and our supreme good is the beautific vision. This is analogous to a college professor teaching an advanced calculus course. The professor hopes that all his students get an A and there isn't anything contradictory in hoping this. In other words, for any student s, him getting an A doesn't necessitate another student earning less than A. The professor will have office hours to help all his students understand the material. It would be a complete lack of charity if the professor hoped that certain students fail the class. Now, is it likely that all the students will earn an A? Probably not. Some students will not do the homework. Some students will give up in frustration and so on. But a professor can still hope that all his students understand the material well enough to earn an A. If we qualify "dare we hope" as I have, I find it is a requirement of love to hope for the salvation of all.
@taniawebber1006
8 ай бұрын
Matthew 7:13-14 NKJV “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
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