When he paused just before he said "client", I could see his mind run through about 4 or 5 inappropriate things to say.
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, saw that a few times here 🤣🤣🤣...and I felt the pain, too!
@tehlaser
Жыл бұрын
Sometimes “client” is a four-letter word.
@NgaTaeOfficial
Жыл бұрын
@@tehlaser It's the _other_ C-Word. Along with Content.
@armyofcats
Жыл бұрын
My friends and I all freelance I we often use the word client as in "they were being a total client" 😄
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
@@armyofcats How polite of all of you...😂😂😂
@johnwbuxton
Жыл бұрын
I'm a consulting engineer and one of the most important things I've learned is to put EVERYTHING into a written contract. When will the job start, when will it be delivered, when will you be paid, HOW will you be paid. Do you need something from the client in order for you to finish your work? Put it in writing and clearly state when they will need to provide it. Scope creep is a common occurrence in my industry and I will often have to go back to clients and ask for more money because of changes they've requested. Having the original parameters of the contract clearly written makes it easy to show how things have changed, why it requires more effort, and why it costs more money. "You asked for X, I priced for X, you're now asking for Y, here's the price for Y."
@melanierhianna
Жыл бұрын
This ^^^^
@ace448
Жыл бұрын
This, this, this. I used to do commercial sales. Everything in writing and always follow up on a phone call with and email. A written record is a must
@cesaravegah3787
Жыл бұрын
Not to mention that more often than not clients will try to get discounts and/or extra work with any excuse, having everything on writing gives less room for excuses.
@guytech7310
Жыл бұрын
FYI: Change Orders are very very IMPORTANT. Often you an a client will agree to a scope of the project, but during the implementation the client wants changes (aka mission creep). This is a tactic many clients use to get more out of you than the job is worth. I recommend you have a a signed agreement that states exactly what services (or products ) you will be providing and that any changes that deviate from the original agreement will include extra charges that the client must sign off (get it writing).
@chaos.corner
Жыл бұрын
It's also possible to include *some* flexibility in the base contract. You just want to stop it getting out of hand. Feature freezes are another way of doing things.
@joecool4656
Жыл бұрын
I work for an engineering firm and you are EXACTLY right. We had a customer want changes for free. No. Engineers are not cheap or free to have doing new designs hourly
@davidswanson5669
Жыл бұрын
I think there’s an allowable amount (of time or money) that should be afforded for clients or creators to tweak aspects of the project. The creative process is always a journey into the unknown, and sometimes it has to take shape in order to know what shape it ought become. Clients typically give deadlines that actually have wiggle room, and creators give bids that actually allow a certain percentage of “force majeure” and other unknowns.
@chaos.corner
Жыл бұрын
@@davidswanson5669 Yes. There has to be a bit of slack. The "Life of Pi" people had an open ended call on the work side.
@danielleanderson6371
Жыл бұрын
I doubt this is a malicious thing most clients do on purpose, so I don't know if "tactic" is the right word. I know, as a person who creates things, that for my own projects I often don't realize exactly what is going to be involved in that process, and they often grow in scope beyond my original vision. I also have a tendency to make a thing, look at the """finished""" product, and realize it's lacking something and needs further iteration. Sometimes by this point I notice something absolutely crucial and/or fundamental is missing that *must* be included for the final version to meet my standards. For me, since I just write code, that only really means more of my own time, but if you make physical things then that means more materials you have to source, which drives up costs even more. This is a trap I fall into regularly as the person with the creative vision for my project who should know better because I'm also the one making it, so I can't imagine just how easy it is for clients who aren't directly involved in the building process to not have a complete idea of what the project actually entails. This is a classic example of Hanlon's Razor, and I think it's folly to go into projects under the assumption that clients are trying to screw you on purpose. Definitely prepare for that inevitability, because some clients actually are trying to screw you, and those who aren't doing it on purpose are still perfectly capable of doing it if you don't have the right safety nets in place, but to expect that clients actively want to gouge you only breeds resentment and cynicism. As a creator, the last thing you want is to become jaded.
@Incandescentiron
Жыл бұрын
A colleague of mine worked in the auto industry and once overheard executives joking about what vendors they were going to put out of business that year. Abusing contracted manufacturers is definitely not limited to the entertainment industry.
@rodchallis8031
Жыл бұрын
As someone who worked in the auto parts manufacturing sector, this doesn't surprise me at all. At some point in the 1990's, Ford, GM, etc., decided that if a supplier was making a profit, that was money they left on the table.
@sindrek8
Жыл бұрын
As an employee of one of the big ones, I am absolutely not surprised.
@GeorgiaGeorgette
Жыл бұрын
Shame on them. I hope karma was watching!
@scifisyko
Жыл бұрын
That is a bit crazy to me - I’d hoped my company was pretty standard, they constantly emphasize that we can’t succeed without our suppliers succeeding. Trying to destroy suppliers seems absolutely bonkers to me.
@rodchallis8031
Жыл бұрын
@@scifisyko Well, the result of putting the screws to suppliers was a ratcheting down of wages and benefits in the supplier sector. Wages, btw, were never the most significant cost factor in manufacturing, contrary to popular belief. Material costs (steel) and energy costs were well ahead. But wages were, and still are, the #1 "controllable cost" and were the target. That's where the parts suppliers found their "efficiencies". Whether that was by design, or just a happy accident, that was the effect.
@WKfpv
Жыл бұрын
While watching this video I felt this feeling of how lucky we are, after all these years after MythBusters, we still have this change of know and learn from you Adam, thanks you so much.
@dannya8614
Жыл бұрын
Well said
@ThestuffthatSaralikes
Жыл бұрын
100% agreed. He could’ve very well just gone on and “lived” but instead keeps us around and STILL educates and teaches us!! Thanks man!!
@GeomancerHT
Жыл бұрын
A lot of the times the client won't mention a "simple detail" and you will end with more that you can't chew but it's not your fault... I once estimated a software migration in 100 hours, 2.5 times the industry standard rate, to a client that didn't show a single line of code until after we signed the contract, and then realized their app was almost 3 millions lines of code and had to be completely tested to be certified as migrated, took +300 hours, I ended up eating the bill but they paid a great bonus that covered most of it and the next contract we both raised the hourly rate and completely changed estimations as we already were cleared to look at code.
@hinugundam81
Жыл бұрын
Always charge .25 more than you think it'll cost at the least. I really hope with the strokes going on in Hollywood right now that the studio system will be forced to change so that the people that actually make movies get a fair deal.
@hinugundam81
Жыл бұрын
When studios like A21 actually collaborate with creators and everyone gets their fair share we get movies that defy expectations and break norms.
@MeTalkPrettyOneDay
Жыл бұрын
Hey, that's great that you and this company were able to remedy the situation and maintain a relationship.
@MonkeyJedi99
Жыл бұрын
I would offer a lesson from home construction contracts. Use your experience, or the experience of others, to estimate the time the job will take. Pad that estimate by 20-40%, charge a per hour that will let you pay all of the people on the job, plus taxes and employment expenses, that will avoid you losing out in that account. Make sure the materials price is either set above current prices at the time of contract signing, or that the client will pay the ACTUAL materials cost. Write in a clause to charge for change orders. My employer gave one free change order if the change was less than 15% of the whole job in hours, but the customer was on the hook for materials. Set up a stepped payment method such that the first payment covers materials and non-employment expenses at a minimum, then other partial payments at major job milestones. In the case of construction, it would be like 30% up front, 30% when the concrete for the foundation was poured and passed inspection, 20% when backfill was complete, and the remainder when the site was left clean. Include a clause that non-payment without cause will result in fees/lien/etc. Have a good lawyer with experience in contract and commercial cases.
@beayn
Жыл бұрын
I work in IT and frequently have the same issue. Recently I quoted 10 hours for a job that took 40, so when another client came along I quoted 40 hours for the exact same job and haven't heard from them since. I frequently neglect to include quote prep time, writing up essay-sized emails with information about the job, meetings and phone calls with the client etc and of course, when they want 78 things changed after it's been deployed. I now quote "4 additional hours for tweaks and changes after deployment" so if they go beyond that I can keep billing.
@daveco1270
Жыл бұрын
"Make this job go away." You gotta love Jamie for that move.
@richardanderson7183
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I can absolutely imagine Jamie's voice saying exactly that.
@speedwaynutt
Жыл бұрын
It's honestly crazy to think that it's been 20 Years since Mythbusters started and that's how a lot of us discovered Adam.
@justinamon4862
Жыл бұрын
Yep glad he's still around too watch too feel like a kid again watching discovery after school
@amancalleddave.3547
Жыл бұрын
I wonder if he knows how well loved he is and by how many people worldwide.
@RoelfvanderMerwe
Жыл бұрын
*a lot
@mkozlinski
Жыл бұрын
And his recollections of a chickenwire topiary are as interesting as him blowing something into pieces.
@TheLebbs2001
Жыл бұрын
Me and my son would always watch it every week he is a grown man now with kids' good memory's of mythbusters
@icedstar
Жыл бұрын
I once charged 50$ for an illustration of a specific car and by the end of it I had worked 12 hours a day for an entire week. This stuff happens to everybody, the important part is learning how to do acurate quoting on your work and also learn what the value of your time is.
@cupbowlspoonforkknif
Жыл бұрын
And always leave margin for error! Also known as profit.
@sadpee7710
4 ай бұрын
oof
@uscmCorps
Жыл бұрын
Adam, the studio you’re speaking of that went bankrupt doing the VFX for Life of Pi was Rhythm and Hues Studios, and it was the last production I worked on before exiting the industry after being at R&H Studio for 15 years. I still recall Oscar’s ceremony when the actors and other people in the audience were laughing at Bill our VFX supervisor accepting his academy award and was chased off the stage just as he was trying to bring to light the horrible way the industry is run. Ironic that they only seem to care about their own plight during these strikes when they didn’t GAF about the VFX industry back then, and still don’t now. VFX bidding has always been a race to the bottom, with the movie studios pitting VFX houses against each other.
@jenkem4464
10 ай бұрын
At least there are some union wins in the VFX industry recently.
@hovermn
6 ай бұрын
You must have worked with Walt J, a friend of mine. It's a crime what happened to you guys and the industry as a whole.
@uscmCorps
6 ай бұрын
@@hovermnWalt was a lighting sup/CG sup while we were there. The last shows we worked on together was Life of Pi and Percy Jackson2. He was great at his job. 🙌🏻
@rianmacdonald9454
5 ай бұрын
@@hovermn I say it is time for that table to turn. Will take unity, but if all VFX companies join together - you guys can pretty much hold holywood by the balls. What tv shows or films will be made with out you guys, YOU HAVE the power if you unite and all work together to get a better deal. holywood really is just the worse humanity has to offer.
@sadpee7710
4 ай бұрын
bidding on jobs so you companies can have their pick of whoever will do the most for the least amount of compensation, is such a nightmare concept.
@psmirage8584
Жыл бұрын
I once bid $120 on a project that involved converting a paper blueprint into an AutoCAD file. Looked easy at first, but the thing ended up taking three times as long as I expected to. Fortunately, my client was understanding, and paid me $300 for the job. It still only ended up paying me about $8 per hour (back in the '90s), but it could've been much, much worse.
@Antivirus-uk3rx
Жыл бұрын
The stop payment would have been an instant cancelled job.
@PaulStSmith
Жыл бұрын
I love that even after more than 30 years he despair at how little he charged for the pieces! 😀😁😂🤣
@orppranator5230
4 ай бұрын
Well when you create a pretty bad financial situation for you and your gf at the time, right after you moved in with her, it tends to stick in your memory.
@shawnmichaelis1609
Жыл бұрын
I think the reason for under bidding a job is so you can still get it, if its too much they wont want what your making. Someone asked me to sculpt them 4 figures/ print and paint them, i said $450 cuz it would take me that long and had a price break down. He laughed in my face and never replied because it was to expensive. Like im not going to bust my ass for weeks just for less than $200.
@seigeengine
Жыл бұрын
Sure, but unless you're desperate, that's not generally a job worth taking, and if you are desperate enough to take low pay, you would probably be better off spending the time looking for a standard job.
@kgrfirdjy
Жыл бұрын
that or the job will likely be very low quality, emphasizing you get what you pay for.
@sarowie
Жыл бұрын
@@kgrfirdjy compromising on quality is a complicated line to walk. I mean: If the customer makes it clear that you work on a background model of a background scene and thus can skimp on the details... okay. But... if the customer has a clear idea and you have clear idea and you can not agree on the price for the level of quality you consider adequate, just don't. It is not worth the stress.
@seigeengine
Жыл бұрын
It also risks damaging your reputation to put out such work.@@sarowie
@chaos.corner
Жыл бұрын
There are always people ignorant of the value and cost of things. You just end up learning to ignore them. Unfortunately online review sites can make these people a major PITA.
@adamkuhn8496
Жыл бұрын
Those are tough when you just start out. You are always worried about getting more work and never want to lose a client, but as you go on you realize there are some clients you never want to work for again anyway.
@divisiona3974
Жыл бұрын
I’m beginning to see why a lot of stuff in Hollywood needs to change big time. Writers strike, actors strike and so forth. Sorely needed.
@seigeengine
Жыл бұрын
It's a persistent issue. Hollywood is mostly a few big players, so they have tremendous negotiating power and can trivially collaborate to screw people over.
@WayStedYou
Жыл бұрын
Seems more like the VFX people are the ones that need to be on strike not the writers.
@divisiona3974
Жыл бұрын
@@WayStedYou They both should strike. And probably a lot of the roles in the business…
@spartan1986og
Жыл бұрын
You just described my brother-in-law's 30+ year custom cabinet business. He was always way too nice to tell a difficult client "no thank you" and almost always underestimated the time it would take to complete a job.
@chasm9557
Жыл бұрын
My father had a similar business, and instead of saying "no" he would say he didn't have the time to take on more work. Usually, after a couple times those people would get the hint. I did see a situation where someone couldn't take a hint, and the guy went into my father's workshop on a Saturday when he and I were working on something for my mother, and the guy started yelling at him. All 5'4" of my father got in the guy's face, shoved him out of the workshop, and told him that if he didn't leave right away he was leaving in an ambulance. He got the hint after that.
@PaulStSmith
Жыл бұрын
When you're bidding for something always remember: COST is determined by the seller. VALUE is determined by the buyer. Always, ALWAYS value your time. When budgeting time for a project, use the Montgomery Scott Method: 1. Take the approximate time you think it will take to do the job. 2. Multiply it by two for unknown and unpredicted events. 3. Then, take the total time and multiply it by two again for the unknowable and unpredictable events.
@Beamer1969
Жыл бұрын
What you're forgetting here is step 4 add 10% so the is some profit in it for you.
@richsackett3423
Жыл бұрын
If I'm reading your comment correctly, the correct consequent is not to value your time, it's to bill it out. Yes: Bill it out.
@chaos.corner
Жыл бұрын
@@richsackett3423All trades are a value proposition. When the trade is made, ideally there is a net value increase. If not, the trade should not be made.
@kriskane
Жыл бұрын
I'm a freelance writer and the advice here applies to all freelance work. Sometimes you underestimate the job's complexity and the time it will take and overestimate your own abilities, and (as Adam said) you just have to eat it. Other times, you run into a client who's such an obvious pain in the ass that you know working with them is going to be an absolute nightmare. No matter how hungry you are, don't take those jobs. Some people's money is too expensive.
@annm4833
Жыл бұрын
"Some people's money is too expensive" that's one of the best phrases I've ever heard. So true.
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
Love that phrase! I'm tattooing it on my brain!
@Meelis13
Жыл бұрын
"Some peoples money is too expensive" is such a good phrase. It also applies for jobs- i've had misfortune of working for both a toxic workplace and good workplace, that turned to toxic. My advice is, that if you encounter such jobs (trust me, you know it when you encounter them or turn into these), the moment you realise it, talk to your boss or bosses and if they give you the runaround or are not keen on answering, basically delaying every reply, its not worth it.
@mdgeisto8953
Жыл бұрын
I'm a translator, and I wholeheartedly agree!
@manp1039
Жыл бұрын
i basically agree with Adam.. but I think it would not be improper, once the contractor realized that the bid was too low for the work, to be able to tell the person, so they know, and even if you will still complete the job, they at least know your situation. They might still offer or renegotiate a price as a way to be fair. but if not, then, of course, they can hold you to the contracted price and other terms, as you can with them I also disagree with Adam on another point. (it may be that I am not understanding what he meant by some of his wording). He spoke of negotiating with a client in the beginning. And it is at this stage where most of the clarifying takes place.. not after the job has started. So a client that appears to be obsessed with details may actually be making sure that everything is understood and agreed upon to the correct understanding of all parties in the contract. And of course, putting those things down in written form, and signed off on them by all parties. And in case there is any trouble, the contract and notes can be referred to for clarification, as memories fade with time.
@deadbugengineering3330
Жыл бұрын
There is scarcely a more gratifying experience than politely rejecting an impolite proposal from a difficult client.
@DungeonBricks
Жыл бұрын
Saw the title, half expected the OTHER big mess up story of the low budget movie. Yet wow! I'll never not be amazed at the amount of stories Adam still has in storage.
@guytech7310
Жыл бұрын
What was the low budget movie?
@nicholastrawinski
Жыл бұрын
@@guytech7310He had to build an atm for a friends movie, failed horribly, and wound up having to sit in a room surrounded by the entire crew while they took turns detailing every way he failed them. Said friend also cut said friendship and they have NEVER spoken since. he later turned down a gig for another low budget movie where a kids bedroom got so tired of being filthy that said bedroom pushed itself out of the house and ran away. He stated that he knew he would need a second person to work with on it with him to keep him on task, but the budget wouldn't allow it so he had to decline the job Another failure was a window display for a store that used baseball pitching machines to lightly toss baseballs at a target of some sort but the baseballs REFUSED to fly properly. He spent a ton of time trying to troubleshoot it to no avail and expected to have to refund their money. Instead he client never even found out because they decided last second to do something else. Adam got paid in full and and the client just threw the whole damn thing out. lol Adam later learned on mythbusters that baseballs, when pitched slowly from a machine, behave badly. it would probably require a heavily customized machine to do properly.
@DungeonBricks
Жыл бұрын
@@guytech7310 can't remember the name. But the story was told by Adam at makers faire 2009 IIRC, you can look it up and the video should pop.
@TheNextDecade
Жыл бұрын
ADAM THANK YOU. I'm sending this to my producers after we finish the shoot this weekend. Oh my god man, that last bit you touched on asking others to help across multiple studios has been my life the last week. i feel so seen and validated holy crap thank you Adam
@magicmanspaz
Жыл бұрын
It's insane how creativity and hard work is "not worth a cent" to those who require the work to be done for them.
@chadportenga7858
10 ай бұрын
As a tooling manufacturer, there are times that we bid on a repair job "T+M, not to exceed $X,XXX" (Time + Material). The "not to exceed" is usually set high enough that we'll break even if everything goes haywire, but the T+M allows the customer to keep the cost at the lowest possible amount that's fair for me as well.
@scottlyttle5586
Жыл бұрын
As a maker and prop person in the movie industry, I'm here just nodding my head up and down as Adam is talking.. I've experienced every single instance he did.. and I've learned a lot as well.
@casedistorted
Жыл бұрын
This “client” seems like a really nice person, putting a hold on a check like that.
@senseisecurityschool9337
Жыл бұрын
I used to often give clients the choice - You pay $500 flat, or you can pay $100/hour, which will probably be $200-$300. I'll take in the risk of the job being bigger than expected, but that risk has a price. If you want a flat rate, I'm going to quote twice as much as I expect it to take.
@raydunakin
Жыл бұрын
I'm retired now but did freelance illustration for many years. Underbidding was always a huge problem for me. This was mostly because I was constantly broke and desperate for money, which is a real death spiral. You need to take whatever you can get just to survive but then you're not getting paid enough and are even more desperate.
@glenngriffon8032
5 ай бұрын
"How a client is going into a project is how they are throughout the project". So true. I don't do this kind of work but I do commission artists from time to time when I can afford it and I try very hard to foster a good working relationship with them so that they know they can set boundaries without upsetting me and I can ask progress reports without feeling like I'm being a "is it done yet" client or feeling like I am pushing them to hurry. A simple 2-3 minute chat about what i should expect from the artist, and what they can expect from me as a client in terms of asking questions about progress and staying updated so we both feel okay and satisfied by the end.
@TechNinja.1701
Жыл бұрын
Anecdotes of the losses and missteps can be far more valuable lessons than the wins. So glad Adam shared this.
@tylergerein4909
10 ай бұрын
This should be a mandatory video for any service tech
@QuestionMan
Жыл бұрын
I love these kind of videos from you. Wisdom gained through experience and presenting it from a place of camaraderie is so helpful and therapeutic.
@ozpin8329
Жыл бұрын
Hey, this was my question! Thanks a bunch for answering it Adam! It helped a lot and that was a really good story to share.
@violinmiata
Жыл бұрын
As a full time violin maker that has retired from repair or restoration for the most part, every time I get conned into a restoration job by a client I will add 30%+ to the hourly quote for crack repair and varnish work. It always insures that I’m not wasting my time by underpaying myself. Learning that your time is valuable took me years to figure out.
@traderjoss
Жыл бұрын
I'm not a maker or craft person at all, but this video hit me hard. Even in personal relationships, the little flags you see at the start show themselves even more fully and clearly as the relationship develops. It's not just a business thing- It's a life lesson thing.
@cynicalrabbit915
Жыл бұрын
Amen! I've been thinking that marriages should be based on written contracts rather than vows.
@Pellagrah
Жыл бұрын
I've spent most of my adult life so far simply developing the self-confidence to acknowledge toxic situations for what they are and learning how to walk away. If you find yourself being drained or destroyed by a relationship, job, etc, then there's absolutely no shame in leaving before the situation deteriorates any further.
@cynicalrabbit915
Жыл бұрын
@@Pellagrah That's why written contracts would be good. We aren't good at getting out of toxic relationships, because we slowly become anestisized to bad behavior and end up living in denial of some sort and that some nebulis future goals or result will have made it all worthwhile, in the meantime we fool ourselves into being victims of another.
@TheNewton
Жыл бұрын
and most of the lessons should be part of standard education not just business or law school.
@orppranator5230
4 ай бұрын
@@cynicalrabbit915They are, it’s called a prenup. Except, if the man doesn’t allow it to expire, (or any other way the wife can get out of it) a judge will just throw the prenup out for being “unfair”.
@Sitania
Жыл бұрын
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them"
@IAMSatisfied
Жыл бұрын
Knowing when to fire problem customers is a hard earned but invaluable skill. After awhile one can sense who is worth working with/for and who is not. Don’t be desperate for work.
@elijahdaves1305
Жыл бұрын
My old woodworking boss called me one day and said a worker screwed up and they needed to redo a massive cabinet job (100+ cabinets) for a job that was to be installed in less than 72 hours. I went over and put in 40 hours over the next 3 days and never charged hin a dime. Ive done this multiple times with friends and family. I do it because i think helping someone who asks for help is the right thing to do, but the side benefit is that ive had times where those same people have helped me get out of a mess Ive made. Building up a community of friends who help each other selflessly can save a world of hurt.
@jayducharme
Жыл бұрын
Great advice! I used to be an audio engineer and ran into a similar situation as the special effects companies you mention. I would quote a price for the whole job, but then was saddled with change after change from the artists. So I shifted to the cost-plus model. I didn't get as many jobs that way, but at least I got paid what I was worth.
@lazarusblack9995
Жыл бұрын
As a life long creator, THANK YOU! Creatives are the worst at billing and admin and paperwork. We need more open discussions about how to do business.
@jakubmakalowski6428
Жыл бұрын
Switching to a cost plus model has definitely helped me a lot, especially considering how often things can go in a different way than expected in many jobs.
@steveguida2639
Жыл бұрын
It takes ten years to build a rep, your ability, your confidence in your ability, the know how to say NO, how to know when fire a customer, or overbid to give the shop down the road a chance at it. They say practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect,( dirt ft) do it right the first time. Be honest humble know your role. Love your work Adam, big fan.
@jastoddart
Жыл бұрын
love hearing the war stories, after 30yrs I've got few of my own. A few thoughts are always remember you will be doing the rough R&D before bidding so that you can know if you can do it. When working with a Corp always have the point of contact as high up the food chain as you can get,, typical department heads don't have the final say, and if it's multiple depts involved beware of committees . And don't bid on the promise that after this one the will need many more. If you set the bid a bit high and the delivery time longer than needed They love you when they get it faster and under budget.
@colonelb
Жыл бұрын
Everything Adam says there ALSO applies to software development and we call the iterative cost plus model, "AGILE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT" and there are LOTS of online tools and best practices you can look up that work well for ANY kind of maker. *One of the BEST ways to handle underbidding is to apply your "average estimation error rate" and here's how you calculate that:* For EVERY project, calculate your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATE* by comparing what it ACTUALLY cost in time and materials to what you thought it would at the beginning. Average all of your *PROJECT ESTIMATION ERROR RATES* together to determine your *AVERAGE ESTIMATION ERROR RATE* Apply that to every new project bid and then wash rinse repeat. With any luck you should see your estimation errors getting smaller and smaller over time. Hope it helps! Cheers
@jameslawler6336
Жыл бұрын
I made some plaques for a ladies horse awards one time. It sounded simple enough, maybe a couple day job, but ended up taking me damn near a month to complete. Not 15 minutes after accepting the job, my shop vac broke. An hour later my planer died running the first board through. The next day my table saw bit the dust. Finally got them shaped right and was trying to finish them, spilled the ENTIRE brand new gallon of shellac, bought more, and used well over a quart trying to get the finish right but it just wasn't working because my shop was so dusty due to the broken shop vac. FINALLY got it looking right and went to screw the metal plates on and the very last screw twisted in half. I managed to get it out after a couple hours of carefully trying and attempted again. The 2nd screw twisted off. But this time it was flush with the surface and also at an angle. I tried to drill it out but the drill bit slipped off the end of the screw and made an oblong hole that stuck out passed the edge of the metal plate making it really visible. I was on the verge of tears at that point. I texted my client and told her what happened and said I could re-shape the plaque and make it look over-all better but I don't think she was really picking up what I was throwing down and said "No its okay, I like them the way they are". I sat there so incredibly stressed out for the next 3 days trying to figure out how the hell I was going to fix this. I ended up painstakingly color matching some epoxy and filling the hole. I also epoxied the metal plate onto the plaque and super glued the head of the screws in place so it looked like it was just screwed down. I had initially quoted her $100 a piece or $200 total for the job and found myself in the hole at least $1000 and a month of labor down the drain. At least she was pretty cool and is now one of my moms very few friends haha
@darthnatas953
Жыл бұрын
This is some great advice here. As a small building contractor, you learn to get a feeling about a customer. When you get a sense you are dealing with someone that is difficult, it's better to start off small, and see if you can work together and you get paid. Large often scare me not because of the size, but because of the risk. Homeowners are some of the most difficult people to work for because they know nothing about construction, and the job is so personal to them. I have much better success in commercial construction.
@Digital.Dictator
Жыл бұрын
This is such a good question and an incredibly invaluable answer, I am a freelancer and encounter things like this quite often, thank you Adam.
@shidarin
Жыл бұрын
It was Rhythm & Hues that won the Oscar shortly after declaring bankruptcy, then got played off the stage and had Bill’s mic cut when drawing attention to it.
@DoctorX17
Жыл бұрын
I just started taking art commissions and nearly fell into the trap of super-underpricing... Thankfully someone made me realize I was charging WAY too low!
@justy256
Жыл бұрын
In the context of the current strikes in L.A., this resonates super hard.
@netltube
Жыл бұрын
Such a great story teller, always love your stories and anecdotes! Thanks Adam!
@Slevin-Kelevra
Жыл бұрын
She is a good woman to support you in that job. And a good lesson. 😊
@hyperverbal
Жыл бұрын
Oh man I remember not being able to think after losing my son, I would be talking to a customer on the phone and just not understand. I felt so bad for them and ashamed of myself for not being able to comprehend complex accounting software that I was trained on and on top of being compassionate. All the while needing to get that 10 on that survey because that's your lively hood. I remember breaking up on the phone and telling my customer I couldn't do it and apologized.
@tommo5884
Жыл бұрын
Adam and Mythbusters is one of the reasons I am now a firefighter and no longer work in animation/ visual effects... What he says here rings true for my experiences when I was: I was an animator and made similar mistakes on my first big solo job. The concept of producing a small part and allowing the client to see in the cost/ quality/ time is agreeable would have saved me weeks of anguish. Recognising a client will be a nightmare and managing this or putting an end to the job is also very relevant (client had no technical understanding at all!). A friend and past collegue spent years as a Technical Director at ILM before he left as the time, stress and remuneration just didn’t seem worth it. This video really brings his decision into context. Great advice from Adam that I wish I had early in my career!
@brahmsonstoner837
Жыл бұрын
Adam, we all go through the early stages of wanting the job and not yet being confident enough to schedule and charge adequately. I went through the same phase (here, on the East Coast - commercials mostly - about 10 years prior to your experiences here). Hard lessons learned, confidence gained, if you survive - which it seems you have done. BTW, GREAT, GREAT work on display on your channel. Very jealous of your set up there . . . love the Sorcerer's Lair you've built there.
@mickesmanymovies
Ай бұрын
“however the client is going to be going into the job is how they will be going through” -Even as a graphics designer, working for a small printing company on the other side of the world, mostly churning out clothes and promotional stuff with company logos on it, this Jamie Hyneman quote rings insanely true!
@drackdan1888
Жыл бұрын
As a self employed landscape gardener I can 100% back up Adams claim that after being screwed a couple of times you learn the sent of those clients. It has gotten to the point that after 10 years on the job I can have a single conversation with these clients and know exactly what sort of trouble they are going to be. To be clear you can deal with some of the clients you just have to not compromise after the contract has been accepted
@NathanSeeley
Жыл бұрын
Sounds like the whole industry just needs to switch to cost+ and not negotiate any other way
@Minecraft-gw1jv
Жыл бұрын
Yep.. I’m the Construction Industry we call it “Time and Material”… You pay on a Hourly day by day basis and you sign off at the end of each and every day on the hours worked and each guy working them.. We charge $55 per hour straight time and $77 Hour overtime.
@sublimationman
Жыл бұрын
That part about how they are going in is how they are going to be throughout is fact and something that is well learned. I have had clients that are like that and press you hard to lower your price, at some point I end up raising the price (this is where you find out how badly they want 'you') I raised my price on a previous client by 200% and when she said "but I'm your best customer" I immediately said "No, you are my biggest nightmare" this customer was beyond picky and complained about everything, yet she knew I was the only one around that could get the job done to the level of quality needed. I did not want to work for her ever again but at 200% raise I was willing to bite my tongue and do it. She went with another company and when I saw the garbage they gave her in the end it was amazing.
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
Right on the money! My Mom taught me a lot about retail. One thing she always said was ,"There are some customers you'd rather lose than win." She was absolutely right but often times your bosses don't see it that way so it's "The customer is always right." Puts you between a rock and a hard place and, of course, your boss never backs you up, lol! But there ARE subversive ways to get around that 😉
@kgrfirdjy
Жыл бұрын
If you pay peanuts, you hire monkeys. 🐒 I learned that working a couple of years at a call center for a mail order pharmacy as a translator. I went back to college for a second degree that more than doubled my paycheck & my abusive boss ended up in a minimum wage fast food job. 😂
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
@@kgrfirdjy My bosses ended up with similar fates...🙄
@Goodgu3963
Жыл бұрын
@@andreavictoriaparadiso47 Sadly the shitty bosses I've had have ended up with massive pay raises, new positions, and new cars. World ain't always fair. But they did encourage me to get the heck out of that industry.
@andreavictoriaparadiso47
Жыл бұрын
@@Goodgu3963 I'm so glad you found your way out! It seemed like that to me in several of my situations...they got ahead while I got trodden on. Then, years later, I found out it wasn't how it all ended up after all. What goes around comes around but sometimes it takes a little while. Wishing you all the very best!
@Tompradoo
Жыл бұрын
I love that despite your differences, and the fact you two will never work together again, I love the vast amount of respect you have for Jamie and how high to talk about him in a proffesionell regard ❤
@richardunruh4035
Жыл бұрын
OMG Adam, your anecdote about the effects industry blew my mind because I never thought there could be another industry as screwed up (billing/quoting) as software development. Your story sounds so familiar, except in software the marketing department tells the customer "Oh yeah, it already does that", then the salesman comes and tells engineering we have x time to develop a new feature that he already sold without asking how long it would take, or if it was even possible.
@historex54tamiya
Жыл бұрын
I would not have finished the job if he wasn’t returning calls, I would have feared he jumped ship and you wasn’t going to get paid at all!
@Elwaves2925
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, while a lot of this is down to Adam the client was definitely operating in bad faith.
@writerpatrick
Жыл бұрын
If you've already bought the materials and put in a lot of time then it would be a better situation to finish it and try to get paid. Otherwise you could wind up taking a bigger loss. But it sounded like Adam was nearly done when the client didn't return his call.
@seigeengine
Жыл бұрын
Or you could put in the extra work and resources and end up taking an even bigger loss..@@writerpatrick
@historex54tamiya
Жыл бұрын
@@writerpatrick Don’t get me wrong, I am on Adams side ref payment, it would just worry me especially as he stopped the initial payment, as a freelance sculptor communication is the key to all work!
@WayStedYou
Жыл бұрын
Then he would've lost the money and the days working on it and had unsellable finished product.
@gp556by45
Жыл бұрын
"How to smell a client who isn't going to be easy". Best way I've ever heard that. I work in Pest Control; and I can absolutely pick out within a minute if a client is going to unrealistic expectations of a service.
@toohip
Жыл бұрын
I've worked some hella low pay tech jobs when I was starting out. I chalked it up to paying my dues. You don't make a lot, but you learn a lot. Better to make $1 than spend $10k being told how to do the same thing at a school.
@Max_Marz
Жыл бұрын
I told someone I cost 80 dollars an hour today with a straight face, and they took me dead seriously, didn't even flinch. The only read they had on me was seeing me operate a forklift for about 30 minutes and a single mutual friend/refrence. It was incredible.
@5000rgb
Жыл бұрын
That's pretty lowdown, cancelling the check and not returning calls. This was really one of the most educational episodes, thanks Adam and the guy who asked the question.
@5000rgb
Жыл бұрын
Also, that's why you have two bank accounts. It's good to have a firewall if something weird happens.
@michaelbradley7529
Жыл бұрын
A prime example of how creativity does not equal business prowess.
@cygnata
Жыл бұрын
Always have a written contract.
@TransistorBased
Жыл бұрын
I work in estimating, and sometimes a cost can look absolutely ridiculous on paper. But when the actual work is getting done and you start getting close to the budgeted amount, you'll be happy for adding in escalation factors and scrap/rework
@wezul
Жыл бұрын
Apparently I'm a dream client. I'm all about the cost-plus model when it makes sense, I'm patient, communicative, pay whatever asked, offer to pay more if things go south, and tip well. And yet I've still had several contractors who in the end didn't do the job as-asked. :\ Here's a pro-tip for contractors: if there's a hurricane outside, go home and come back to do the yard work another day. Don't do half of what was promised because Hurricane. And if a customer offers to pay more when unexpected things pop up, take her up on it. Don't skimp on the job to make up your lost money. Sheesh.
@Goodgu3963
Жыл бұрын
There are as many bad contractors as there are clients. Learning how to smell bad contractors as a client is as important as learning to smell bad clients as a contractor.
@mattpace1026
Жыл бұрын
Sounds like you're a gullible client.
@fabianluescher
Жыл бұрын
all right, nobodys gonna read this. i'm a maker by profession and somehwat drunk and so very happy about this video. i have a new love in my life and this video sums up all my struggles in my past 15 years of making, staying alive and keeping clienats and, most importantly, myself, happy. thank you, i will show it to that very special other.
@halbronk7133
Жыл бұрын
When you bite off more than you can chew, and end up having to eat it, it can be worth telling the client what happened. That way they won't be surprised if they ask you to do it again and you quote them twice as much.
@davidtomasetti8520
Жыл бұрын
That is a similar lesson I learned on my FIRST bid job for a "friend" and didn't require a deposit from them.
@blakewilliams1478
Жыл бұрын
This video is an excellent reminder to make every client sign a CONTRACT
@ThestuffthatSaralikes
Жыл бұрын
THIS is a GREAT question!! Any maker (being honest) that does commissions will have dealt with this in SOME way! Getting a real professional’s experience and how they dealt with it is priceless advice!! Thanks SO much Adam. I JUST dealt with this and just ate the costs…
@9adriano21
Жыл бұрын
This is pure gold! Thank you!
@MrDecelles
Жыл бұрын
Bad clients are trouble. Some of them should be dodged. We learn that we should close/sell all clients. but this is 100% not true.
@MrUglyDave
11 ай бұрын
Thank you for being so open with sharing your wisdom Adam, really
@DFord-rv3nz
10 ай бұрын
I really appreciate this segment. Hits home.
@KevinsDisobedience
Жыл бұрын
Oh yeah, I’m a drywall-painting contractor. I’ve definitely been there. The best thing to do is eat the loss, do a good job, and don’t make the same mistake again for the same reasons. There are situations where you can have a conversation with a client about unexpected material costs, but if they say that’s on you-they’re not wrong.
@VaeVictisXIII
Жыл бұрын
As a bike mechanic this speaks to me on many levels with customers and what they expect from jobs and the real cost involved in restoration worth
@mkozlinski
Жыл бұрын
I'm a freelance animator. I used to work for PR agencies, working for big companies. As an animator and very often also an illustrator I had to deal with situations where first of all I was at the very end of the food chain in the project. Last weeks of before the deadline, the budget almost spent etc and few time I agreed to certain payment and deadline without an awarness that I don't work for one person. There was a whole chain of people (often not directly involved in the project) who were sending their feedback down the ladder in the company marketing department, the department sent them to me and it took days plus the often were contradict to each other so it had to clarify if object X should be green or pink (yelling "Make up you mind, a...holes!!!) Almost every time some calls me with a "quick and simple job" it ends up with me "sculpting in the sh.t" barely balancing the costs.
@cygnata
Жыл бұрын
That client was an a$$.
@IllusionSector
Жыл бұрын
Adam, I work in an industry that does not deal in physical objects, yet these are very valuable tips.
@patrickdiehl6813
Жыл бұрын
Solid advice Adam. When I was partners in a tree removal / trimming business my partner had a job in que prior to my buying into the company. When we arrived on the job site I saw two Mammoth Sycamore trees that were over 100' tall. I asked him which one was being removed and he said both, I asked him how much did you bid this for and he said $5,000.00 Power lines ran through them and shut down an entire neighborhood, the job should have been bid @ around 15K as it required a crane and 2 weeks of labor with the existing crew. Assessing all the elements of a job including everything that could possibly go wrong are key to bidding it properly.
@justayoutuber1906
Жыл бұрын
Or you can have a client like Tronld Dump who just tells his contractors that he will only pay 80% of the bill and if they don't accept, they can try to sue him which will cost tens of thousands of dollars all while he bad mouths them and tries to get them blacklisted from any future jobs.
@seigeengine
Жыл бұрын
The legal system is definitely skewed hard to the rich.
@pashaveres4629
10 ай бұрын
Man, thank you. Appreciate all the wisdom you have shared (and it does seem considerable). Appreciate you sharing the travails that led to that wisdom. Thank you. Aloha
@casedistorted
Жыл бұрын
“How they’ll be at the start is how they’ll be going through” is a great quote I wish I knew. My dad passed exactly a year ago to the day, and he left his house and mortgage. Dads “girlfriend” offered to rent his home, but she bid me down for the rent price and caused all sorts of problems before moving in, causing a stink about everything possible. She’s done it all the way through renting the place, telling all of dads friends that her neighbor is nosy (because she has 3 dogs, now 4 because she found one on the beach, and her neighbor just wonders why random dogs show up on his rooftop and bark all day, he’s a really sweet guy whose lived there his entire life too), and she has told everyone except me she wants to move out and has had roommates there I haven’t known about, and complained about all manner of repairs that cost a fortune. It’s something true I wish I knew, she’s helped me pay my dads mortgage but man is it a challenge.
@cohort6159
Жыл бұрын
Use the engineering rule of thumb when making estimates. Double the estimate and then bump it up to the next unit of measure or magnitude. A one hour project will take two days. A 10 dollar job will cost $200.
@zerentheunskilled
Жыл бұрын
That's the kind of behaviour that makes people distrust you then tell their friends about how you tried or succeeded at fleecing them.
@writerpatrick
Жыл бұрын
@@zerentheunskilled That's only the estimate. The final price could be closer to the actual cost. Although no project should be estimated at less than a day.
@zekeabercrombie3583
Жыл бұрын
That's how you lose jobs to the competition.
@AndrewDowell
Жыл бұрын
Great video Adam, got me smiling at the end talking about visual effects studios. I had first hand experience of about to Rhythm and Hues in their brand new Kaohsiung Studio in Taiwan, only to be told the Studio had gone under two weeks later. Crazy times but luckily it all worked out.
@j.v.5499
Жыл бұрын
When people show you who they are - believe them, the first time. (Trump.... just saying....)
@bassfacekillah
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for taking the care to answer the writer's question so thoroughly.
@rootunes1191
Жыл бұрын
I am a project engineer for a large engineering company in mechanical engineering, I quote jobs high as insurance to all the likely scope of work changes especially MDR and ITP paperwork, especially the hagglers. And make sure to dot the i's and cross the tee's in the quote, i have been caught out and am now cautious.Previously when I worked as a production manager in a small machine shop I would encourage clients to do as it costs (hourly rate) Fair for both no ones ripping anyone off and a lot went that way. These days its the paperpushers in engineering that are the nightmare.
@shard_the_sage1320
8 ай бұрын
I work making fire alarm drawings and it's amazing how every single thing Adam described applies.
@John_Conner222
Жыл бұрын
It is EXTREMELY important to have a SIGNED agreement with all the terms and possible permutations. IF they don't want to sign then you don't take the job. It's that simple otherwise they are planning to screw you over.
@Iwysaur
Жыл бұрын
This made me remember when I worked in a hydraulics workshop where we mostly did repairs but took on and made a specialized motocross trailer for a client. They'd agreed on an estimated price but throughout the process they would visit the shop and give input and wishes on more or different features. When it was finished and it came time to pay and the price was above the estimate and they refused to pay! It became a lengthy lega issue and in the end out shop was in the right, the verbal agreements was enough(This was in Sweden). The legal fees about broke even with the cost though and the shop was out of all the production cost all that time. I feel that's a lesson a lot of makers learn as well, agree on a price and make adjustments during the process and then clients take issue with the new cost when it comes time to pay.
@Krunked
Жыл бұрын
im glad to see these starting to be uploaded in 4k
@Firebird356
Жыл бұрын
Great vid, thanks Adam. I have tried to explain this to so many students and young designers. This is unfortunately a lesson that can only be learned by experiencing it.
@kellynkarr
Жыл бұрын
I own an automotive repair shop. We quote repairs based on diagnosing the problem in a predetermined amount of time. We usually advise the customer that additional pieces can break or need to be replaced during the repair as that just can’t be foreseen. We try our absolute best to be accurate to the penny but there are unknowns that cannot be preconceived.
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