I don't think Homer's mention of iron is anachronistic. It's described as a rare and valuable gift item and we know, archaeologically, that meteoric iron was used in limited quantities in the Bronze Age.
@paxmeier915
4 жыл бұрын
22 hours ago. Patreon?
@Zveebo
4 жыл бұрын
@@paxmeier915 No, clearly time travel, Jeppe…
@paxmeier915
4 жыл бұрын
@@Zveebo Lol wtf no time travle dose not ecxist r u dump?
@MWhaleK
4 жыл бұрын
Also i'm pretty sure that there was one or two groups that had Iron working way back then.
@tonysladky8925
4 жыл бұрын
@@Zveebo that also explains how he knows about the meteoric iron.
@aldrinlimos5159
4 жыл бұрын
So you're telling me that myths are not stories that are untrue, but rather tales that don't fit neatly into the historical record, that serve as a foundation for a culture?
@Ilichburger
4 жыл бұрын
god that sentence always felt so clunky to me
@abthedragon4921
4 жыл бұрын
*Aldrin Limos* Perfect comment
@procrastinator99
4 жыл бұрын
So you're telling me, that you too are a man of culture?
@LanceOmikron
4 жыл бұрын
@@Ilichburger I've always loved it, personally.
@atzuras
4 жыл бұрын
Ancient history and myths are often overlapping each other. We have to judge them more by general common sense and how they "fit in" rather than accurate facts and findings.
@petersmythe6462
4 жыл бұрын
"glorified taxis" In modern parliance we call these "armored personnel carriers."
@shizelee8251
4 жыл бұрын
lmao
@dithiasofyan6648
4 жыл бұрын
More like an officer's jeep or humvee
@LiveErrors
3 жыл бұрын
@mxt mxt Relative to the day they where, since they basicly protects you from melee atacks
@patrickd7890
3 жыл бұрын
@@dithiasofyan6648 yes
@palehorseman8386
4 жыл бұрын
Here's a theory that would fit the narrative. A thousand ships that make landfall over the course of ten years. Some may have even made the journey multiple times. So a protracted war with Greeks rotating in and out over time
@Reubentheimitator6572
4 жыл бұрын
Wow. I like that hypothesis.
@andrewbachman698
4 жыл бұрын
Also like many ancient sources the definition of a ship may be pretty fast and loose, with small fishing boats being counted the same as a large warship
@lego501stTrigger
4 жыл бұрын
I was just thinking that! My theory is that instead of a singular siege between ALL the Greeks against the Trojans, this was only a small part of a larger war in either Greece, Anatolia, or both, with many alliances and city-states shifting throughout the war. As the Greeks gained the upper hand elsewhere, they began relieving and adding to the forces at Troy, as it was the single stubborn holdout in that area of the war. A ten-year war makes far more sense if it's a multi-theater campaign against many kingdoms and city-states in both Greece and Anatolia, rather than a single invasion of Troy. The initial landfall being a tricky one would make sense if the first wave of Greek troops were proportional in number to the Trojans, maybe ten or so thousand. They would have made the beachhead, but realized that their numbers were matched by Troy, so instead of assaulting the city, they laid siege to it. As this siege dragged on, and more and more Greek states either joined the war or switched from a different side, they reinforced the army at Troy, as the city was still resisting. Eventually, around the time of the Trojan Horse, the Greeks may have built up their forces and finally assaulted the city. Another theory I had was that the Trojan Horse was actually a siege tower, or series of siege towers, that allowed the Greeks onto the walls of Troy. Given how the Trojans in the story constantly sortied and fought pitched battles, they must have been getting enough reinforcements to be able to do so, which would make sense if it was in fact a larger war in the region. This definitely is not the epic story of the Siege of Troy as Homer told it to be, but it definitely fits in my head.
@cavc94
3 жыл бұрын
@@lego501stTrigger That's basically the whole trojan cycle. The greeks attacked and destroyed many cities in Asia Minor and after they go for Troy itself. Also, Troy recieved reinforcements from many cities previously destroyed by the greeks. There were a couple of poems that describes all of this but today are lost.
@LaceNWhisky
4 жыл бұрын
The Trojan Horse as a metaphor for Poseidon causing an earthquake doesn't make sense to me. The symbolism checks out, but Greek myth is full of divine intervention. When other natural phenomena happen in a story, it's usually attributed directly to the associated god without extra metaphor. If an earthquake is what let the Greeks into the city, Why doesn't the story just say that Poseidon took favor on the Greeks and sundered the walls? Seems like the battering ram explanation - or maybe some other siege engine - is a more likely explanation.
@Pantsinabucket
4 жыл бұрын
Why is a Trojan Horse so unrealistic? It's a tactic that's worked effectively in the modern era. Look at Operation Eland (also called the Nyadzdonya Raid), where 84 Rhodesian Selous Scouts disguised themselves as Mozambican soldiers (with the white soldiers in the unit going so far as to put on blackface) before crossing into Mozambique in captured Mozambican military vehicles. They were then allowed into the ZANLA training camp at Nyadzdonya, where the Selous Scouts would then roll into the main square/parade ground of the camp, and blasted a horn to alert the ZANLA rebels to get to their stations. The ensuing "battle" would result in the deaths of 1-2,000 ZANLA fighters/cadets and an unknown number of Mozambican soldiers, while only 4 Selous Scouts would suffer light injuries. If literal fucking blackface is a good enough disguise to work as a trojan horse and then win an 84 vs 10,000+ battle, then a Trojan Horse could most likely take a single gatehouse and let the Mycenaeans into Troy.
@matthewferrantino9521
4 жыл бұрын
No. The Trojan Horse along with Helen make all of those sound absurd: None of them require betrayal, but what else could the Iliad be about except betrayal?
@matthewferrantino9521
4 жыл бұрын
I'm going to say the real horse was probably a horse head on the obverse of a coin.
@matthewferrantino9521
4 жыл бұрын
Or something much more along those lines.
@robertjarman3703
4 жыл бұрын
We have evidence from this time period that a lot of earthquakes were happening, like, a lot of earthquakes. It would not at all be strange if Troy fell victim to one at this time. Plus, without that much written history and several hundred years of embellishing and changes, plus the fact that Homer's records were only recorded in writing centuries after Homer and all the embellishing and changes between Homer and the written record, if Homer even existed with certainty, it would be plausible for several different options to be true.
@MWhaleK
4 жыл бұрын
The thing I think a lot of people misunderstand is to think that "Homer" (who ever that was) composed the iliad and the Odyssey. In fact tradition says that Homer was blind and he was very likely a Bard/keeper of Oral history who didn't do original composition but instead recited epic poems containing history/tradition as they had been told for generations back to around the time of the Trojan War with mostly minor changes. Such stories can stay pretty accurate for a very, very long time.
@theresahall1591
4 жыл бұрын
And probably the first storytellers exaggerated a lot of what happened to make themselves look better. Because everyone wants to look like they were important especially when talking about what happened with others.
@friedkeenan
4 жыл бұрын
I think in this video "Homer" is supposed to represent the oral tradition and all the exaggerations and such that can arise in that, rather than a person who happened to write the story down centuries after the fact with no input
@Morsificator
4 жыл бұрын
Well, I've read somewhere (yeah, I know, great reference, right?) that extensive stylistic and vocabulary analysis showed that both the Iliad and the Odyssey were written by one person. They are supposed to be consistent with each other.
@friedkeenan
4 жыл бұрын
@@Morsificator I've heard from my teachers that the written form of the Iliad we have now could've actually been written by multiple people, not just one, but I think they did also say that it was likely the Odyssey and the Iliad were written by the same writer(s). But either way the written form we have now was more or less just putting to letter the story that the Greeks had been telling orally for centuries, before they had cozied back up to writing in general
@atzuras
4 жыл бұрын
It is better to assume that all the ancient history is based on oral tradition. But at some point Homer compiled the verse, the metrics and made the tale easy to remember so his version did prevail. Just imagine how boring would be such war without Achilles, Hector or the Gods taking part.
@iapetusmccool
4 жыл бұрын
Quest: collect 50 boar tusks. Reward: boar-tusk helmet. Odysseus: ffs, I've killed 50 boars already, and half of them didn't even drop 1 tusk.
@jarrakul
4 жыл бұрын
I wrote a paper in college about what the Trojan Horse actually was. I seem to recall another major theory was that it was the codename for a Greek spy within Troy, which would certainly fit the whole "sneak in and open the gates" angle.
@MaskedStellar
28 күн бұрын
I am actually interested in reading that paper
@Romellenios_Lanz_Daemos
4 жыл бұрын
So "Invicta, See u in history, kings and General, and now Extra History" are covering certain topic of the Bronze Era, (mainly the Trojan War) by far one of the Best days Ever!!
@wilhelmrk
4 жыл бұрын
That is what sponsorship money does
@Yannis1a
4 жыл бұрын
And Total war saga: TROY release today, what a great coincidence and not sponsored at all
@Romellenios_Lanz_Daemos
4 жыл бұрын
@@Yannis1a I know right!?
@vkaivos
4 жыл бұрын
Who tf is "See u in history"
@Romellenios_Lanz_Daemos
4 жыл бұрын
@@vkaivos another History focus channel.
@Samwiz1
4 жыл бұрын
I love just how much of historical warfare is based on the concept that so few people to target the horses.
@Whitemoon193
4 жыл бұрын
It is better to capture war horse than kill it
@krankarvolund7771
4 жыл бұрын
Well, it's pretty hard to aim at a horse who run, especially if he is moving towards you and will crush you in a matter of seconds XD Of course, it happened, but most times, the soldiers were terrified. Because they were not professional soldiers, but probably more levies not trained well ^^
@buster8696
4 жыл бұрын
Well to be fair to them, targeting a horse is one thing, actually taking it down is another story.
@mikerodrigues9822
4 жыл бұрын
Horses also have a thick skin when compared to humans, so arrows and spear tips wont kill then easily. Also, much larger.
@yeeyee5057
4 жыл бұрын
Horses are expensive man, just kill your enemies and steal em
@parkerslack8475
4 жыл бұрын
Jack Churchill deserves his own Extra Credits video!
@rashkavar
4 жыл бұрын
I highly recommend the episode of Citation Needed on Jack Churchill. (It's a youtube show where a group of friends are trying to predict events covered on a wikipedia article based on vague prompts given by the one guy who's actually reading the article. Jack Churchill's article makes for one of the best episodes.)
@PrograError
4 жыл бұрын
@@rashkavar i really missed that version of Citation Needed... so funny...
@rashkavar
4 жыл бұрын
@@PrograError Yeah. Citation Needed was a great show. I can understand why they ended it - it had peaked a couple seasons back from when they axed it. But there's definitely a part of me that wants it back anyway.
@HumanTooth
4 жыл бұрын
The lad so mad that they made it his nickname (I think)
@tammyt3434
4 жыл бұрын
Or two... maybe three... the dude was too cool.
@mattmarino4033
4 жыл бұрын
Achilles: Rides his chariot into battle Trojans: Much scared Achilles: gets off They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
@GormTheElder
4 жыл бұрын
Also, I don't really get what the problem is supposed to be. Melee-fighting from chariots was almost never done, and when done, only in mass-charges. It was a dangerous and difficult to control, so most chariot combat was done with bow-and-arrow, and otherwise chariots were mainly for mobility. If Archilles enters melee combat, it is fully to be expected that he'd dismount, I don't understand what the issue is supposed to be.
@basicallyarobloxian4533
4 жыл бұрын
Achilles: what, are you jealous of my chariot?
@mattmarino4033
4 жыл бұрын
GormTheElder it was a joke. It was because Matt acted so surprised.
@EMBer3000
4 жыл бұрын
So, Achilles, the great warrior, might have been a real person that while not immortal or impervious to harm was so good that people ascribed these traits to him. He died then of a chance shot to the heel that didn't perhaps kill him immediately but instead got infected and caused him to die rapidly from blood poisoning, he literally died from being shot in the heel since that was the only injury he had taken.
@PyroMancer2k
3 жыл бұрын
The over thousand ships quote acts like they were all sent at once. But if a war last years odds are they likely got reinforcements over time. So like 200 ships sent every year for 10 years would easily be over a thousand ships. For dramatic purposes he refers to the totals in the same way we would refer to the total number of casualties in the World Wars as a single number even though those deaths were spread out over many years and locations.
@m.c.martin
2 жыл бұрын
Like the way Normandy was raided*. 1.2 Million didn’t land all at once, but in 4 waves.
@bettybetty9476
4 жыл бұрын
Matt: "In order for a chariot to be effective [...] you need a pretty flat ground" Me: **laughs in stormcloak nord**
@suvonhernandez843
4 жыл бұрын
When you miss click in a game an accidentally dismount ya chariots
@snoopyodig1137
4 жыл бұрын
been there b4
@neutronalchemist3241
4 жыл бұрын
Homer specifies that the boar's tusk helmet given by Meriones to Odysseus was an heirloom, passed down through the generations. More, Odysseus is described wearing it only during his moonlight incursion in the city to steal the palladium. It's quite obvious that a clanking bronze armour was not the best choice in that situation. In the same expedition, Diomedes worn a simple leather helmet without crest or other ornaments.
@arcanepretender1112
4 жыл бұрын
This series is the best thing to come from Total War Saga: Troy.
@blondieytisaidiot2000
4 жыл бұрын
Imagine judging the game hours after release lmao
@blondieytisaidiot2000
4 жыл бұрын
@Joakim von Anka imagine thinking that other platforms dont do the same
@blondieytisaidiot2000
4 жыл бұрын
@Joakim von Anka that troy is inferior compare to other game because of this?
@umbraghosts9043
4 жыл бұрын
Well I actually like it
@bmoney2011
4 жыл бұрын
I don't get it. I'm thoroughly enjoying the campaign
@devildukitzu
4 жыл бұрын
The one thing most people, I included until very recently, don't remember or know is that the Illiad is a small part in the tale of the trojan war. In fact Illiad as transcribed from Homer takes place in the last year of the war and only focuses on Achilles. The other parts of how the war started and how it ended and what happened to the survivors were not from Homer but the other parts of the Epic Cycle. The trojan horse was in the Little Illiad by Lesches, then followed by Illou Persis at the fall of troy. Homer's tales were the longest but more focused on the individuals rather than the events. It's probably why they are more well known
@jarekwrzosek2048
4 жыл бұрын
As you always say in Extra Mythology Matt, "Myths are not stories that are untrue, rather they are tales they don't fit neatly into the historical Record". And the Trojan War is the perfect example of this, Quod Eram Demonstrandum.
@Mr110074
4 жыл бұрын
7:58 In the Percy Jackson series, Percy could actually talk to horses being the son of Poseidon. Funny thing in the Son of Neptune book, Percy complained that Hazel’s horse cussed a lot. But the story was in third person so we can only guess what horse actually said.
@shawnheatherly
4 жыл бұрын
Cool to hear that while much of it is likely exaggerated, there is some historical foundation.
@ericoung4602
4 жыл бұрын
I remember reading somewhere when they seig Troy they used half the army to grow crops and food
@HistoryExplained
4 жыл бұрын
Really loving your ancient history content! You’re a huge inspiration to me as a new ancient history channel! Keep it up! 👍
@theguyishere249
4 жыл бұрын
Extra credits could you do an episode on the Hatfields and the mccoys. I think that would be awsome.
@IntoTheSkyy
4 жыл бұрын
Started reading the Illiad because of this channel, been for Total War Troy since you guys announced it. I have to say, it does not disappoint.
@lanebowles8170
4 жыл бұрын
Don't forget the Hittite records! They shed some light on the realities of a 'Trojan War' as well.
@R2D2589
4 жыл бұрын
MAD JACK, MAD JACK, MAD JACK!!!
@holdenmiller3959
4 жыл бұрын
You did a video on otto von Bismarck when will it be Giuseppe garibaldi's turn?
@countdarkmire1759
4 жыл бұрын
My favorite theory about the Trojan Horse is that it was a ship. It has been noted that the terms used to put men in the horse are those used by ancient Greek authors when describing the embarkation of men on a ship, and that there are analogies between the building of ships by Paris at the beginning of the Trojan saga and the building of the horse at the end; ships are called "sea-horses" once in the Odyssey. This view has recently gained support from naval archaeology: ancient text and images show that a Phoenician merchant ship type decorated with a horse head, called hippos ('horse') by Greeks, became very diffuse in the Levant area around the beginning of the first millennium BC, being used to trade precious metals, and sometimes to pay tribute after the end of a war; it is suggested therefore that the original story viewed the Greek soldiers hiding inside the hull of such a vessel, possibly disguised as a tribute, and that at some time this term was misunderstood in the oral transmission of the story, giving origin to the Trojan horse myth.
@LuxTheSlav
4 жыл бұрын
The broadsword Mad Jack carried was of the basket-hilted variety, not a longsword. Easy mistake to make, since both have been called broadswords and claymores since the 19th century, and are both Scottish in origin. But his was definitely a one-handed, basket-hilted sword.
@frostincubus4045
4 жыл бұрын
What's basket-hilted sword?
@iamkulit1cs735
2 жыл бұрын
OSP covered the Trojan war a view weeks ago and brought up an interesting theory, that the myth of the Epic cycle is the story of the Mycenean Bronze age collapse. The theoretical story goes thusly. Due to some factor, Troy becomes the target of a large scale war or raiding operation by the mainland Greeks. However, the sack of Troy and the cost of the war proves to be more trouble than it's worth for the Greeks, causing anarchy to grip their cities and a mass exodus from the Aegean. These refugees and veteran raiders then become the "Sea people" that other bronze age civilizations are attacked by around the time of the collapse. This would explain why the Epic Cycle end how it does and why these Sea People seemingly materialized out of thin air. The Epic cycle end with the sack of Troy and the death of most of the main characters, almost all of who are kings. If a large portion of the ruling class in a Bronze age society dies, that means bureaucracy and effective governance also disappears which leads to chaos and political instability. This causes refugees to flee, mostly to the south, and they bring hundreds of veterans who start to sack other cities like those in Egypt.
@the_major
4 жыл бұрын
Fun fact: Greeks in Cyprus continued to use chariots long after the bronze age. If you went to cypress in the 5th century BCE, you would see chariots in the army. Greek authors at the time thought that this was super weird and they actually commented on it.
@christopherg2347
4 жыл бұрын
# On the chariot thing: Apparently the Britons that Ceasar fought, used them too. In a similar fashion as well. kzitem.info/news/bejne/rYV5qIuebnuooGk 4:20 The Bronze age only meant *rare* iron items. They did do Iron Working in that time, just more as a experimental, high skill, high expense kind of stuff - rather then the mass products that define the Iron Age. # As for the Boar Tusk helmet, I would actually expect commanders to use it despite the poor combat performance. Battle Gear all the way up to invention of Rifles, was designed with anti-stealth in mind: Being visible and identifiable *enough* was a unavoidable requirement. Roman Centurions used totally impractical helmets and rode horses, despite not being a cavalry unit. Loosing banners/eagles/other symbols or rumors of a commander dying could literally loose a battle.
@mr.34coffeecups67
4 жыл бұрын
Yes! Finally someone acknowledges historia civilis
@vladimirlagos2688
4 жыл бұрын
This was a really good video, although I still feel somewhat let down by how part one completely ignored the plea of Priam to Achilles and how Achilles was able to find far more solace in honoring Priam's request than he had gotten by all the acts of violence and cruelty he had engaged in after the death of Patroclus. On the upside, the free game is a good consolation price to make up for my complaints...
@LiveErrors
3 жыл бұрын
This is a video on possible historical truths of the Illiad. The Priam scene, while the centerpiece of the entire story, is Drama - not history Unless that interaction was real which we would never know
@Mito383
4 жыл бұрын
Extra History with the save, reminding me that Total War Saga: Troy is free today.
@VTimmoni
4 жыл бұрын
"Rage. Godess sing me the rage of Paleus' son Achilles, murderous, doomed..."
@GuillaumeDelporte
4 жыл бұрын
Never will I ever postpone looking at an extra history video ever again.
@andersstengard6293
4 жыл бұрын
A little thing I'd like to point out. A professor researching the Trojan War decided to test a hypothesis on how Homer managed to get it right. There were singers at the time recalling a great battle that their country won in, that happened 600 years ago, the same timespan Homer had to deal with. The singers were using oral tradition only for this and the professor used historical texts recounting the battle to cross-reference. The end result was stunning: The singers got everything about the battle right, displaying oral recounting of the time to be just as accurate as the written word. And the general consensus is that if we today could think of it, so could the people of the past. The idea of oral tradition isn't popular, but it has proven to be effective. Thus, Homer could get it right about certain things about the Trojan War, while getting other things wrong, such as the embellishment of heroes and leaders of the war. Mind you, the Renaissance people got it very wrong themselves with a portrait showing EVERYONE in the war wearing STEEL PLATE ARMOR.
@MWhaleK
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, people over look that oral historians like Homer can do a very good job of keeping the facts straight for hundreds of years. Maybe even keeping alive bits of history for thousands of years since Irish myths about New Grange may refer to certain details about it that were only rediscovered with in the last century, thousands of years after the last time anyone could have been inside to see those things. Also some old, old stories about stonehenge talk about how the Blue Stones were brought from far to the west, modern science has found they came from Whales.
@THECOMMUNISTCHANNEL
4 жыл бұрын
When he says Homer I always remember Homer from the Simpsons dancing to Sirtaki
@Romellenios_Lanz_Daemos
4 жыл бұрын
ΟΠΑ!
@cheezemonkeyeater
4 жыл бұрын
"If you could afford to wear that many boar tusks, you were someone important." I don't think it was a question of affording. i think it was more a way of saying, "I killed this many boars, you should fear me." Because boars back in Ancient Greece were absolutely terrifying.
@twoscarabsintheswarm9055
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah
@rashkavar
4 жыл бұрын
I mean, spear-hunting boars would be as terrifying now. There's a reason that boar hunting was a sign of manliness and courage up until it became acceptable to just point a rifle at something, kill it and call it a day. And even then, plenty of hunters will talk it up, which I always find hysterical. Yes, you can point a metal stick at something and press the button that makes things the stick is pointed at die. Good job. Do it with a spear or a bow and I'll be impressed. I'll still think you're a barbarian who needlessly kills wildlife, but I'll be impressed by how committed you are to the idea.
@MrCarpelan
4 жыл бұрын
They are the same boars we have today, you know?
@thesuccessfulone
4 жыл бұрын
Been listening to the Iliad and "thus he spoke" and differences in war were highly jarring and fascinating. Especially the fact they took breaks over night. (There are obvious flourishes like "I definitely know the specific prayer, Flurbin son of Glorbin said before he threw his spear and pierced Herp son of Derp" in the breast - near the pap - and darkness fell over his eyes.)
@PatrickColl1ns
4 жыл бұрын
Achilles: I am unstoppable! Arrow: hElLo hEeL
@a.h.tvideomapping4293
4 жыл бұрын
Arrow: hello *bætçh*
@aaronscott7467
4 жыл бұрын
Could it be that many of the ships sent by each of the cities were filled with supplies instead of warriors? If they expected a long battle, I would not be surprised if they did something along those lines
@AbsolXGuardian
4 жыл бұрын
I don't really find it that surprising that Homer got details accurate he'd have no way to know. Homer didn't make up the Illiad and the Odyssey. His just got written down. So it makes sense that elements from a story that came, if not from veterans of the actual war, people who were familar with war in that time period. Then bards changed elements, dropped some, and embellished others. But especially since they had hexamic meter as an in born checking mechanisms, it makes sense that lines would have been in Homer's version that were unchanged from the original.
@freakrx2349
4 жыл бұрын
I think you forgot to mention that Troy or “Wilusa” as it was known in Hittite writings was a member of a western Anatolian confederation named the Arzawa. The Arzawa were rebellious vassals of the Hittites who wanted to remove their influence from the region. This of course would lead to the destruction of the Arzawa (including Troy) at the hands of the Sea Peoples (as detailed in the Illiad) and also the destruction of the Hittites whose capital was sacked by the Sea Peoples.
@krankarvolund7771
4 жыл бұрын
The sea peoples destroyed every civilization in Bronze Age XD Except Egyptians of course ^^
@vexaris1890
4 жыл бұрын
The Myceneans also wanted to settle in Anatolia and were rivals of the Hittites. Wilusa could also be a victim of the conflict between the Myceneans and the Hittites.
@freakrx2349
4 жыл бұрын
Krankar Volund the biblical Israelites also defeated the Sea Peoples (the Peleset in particular who came from Crete). The Peleset are known as the Philistines in the Bible.
@freakrx2349
4 жыл бұрын
Snarf McDreary It’s certainly possible that Troy and by extension the Arzawa served as a buffer zone between the Hittites and the Mycenaeans.
@vexaris1890
4 жыл бұрын
@@freakrx2349 We just don't have enough sources, so I fear that this mystery will never be conclusively solved.. but I wouldn't throw the 'sea peoples' hap-hazardly around. Most archeologists and historians shun away from attributing every single destruction to them - that was over-simplifying by the earlier generation.
@superfluous9726
3 жыл бұрын
"How can anyone stop Achilles???" *Twank* Achellies: "Oh fuck me heel."
@jonasnee
4 жыл бұрын
ehm, iron was starting to become used around the end of the bronze age, it is possible some people had iron in the trojan war, in fact it is likely.
@Numba003
4 жыл бұрын
These videos are always so good. Excellent as always guys. Stay well out there everybody, and Jesus Christ be with you friends.😊
@DanielleTinkov
4 жыл бұрын
I really wish you had more episodes on the Bronze age. It's such a fascinating topic and there's almost nothing good on it on KZitem. Few sporadic videos and that's it. Your series on the collapse was pretty cool and I wish there was more on that period
@firstoffproductions1462
4 жыл бұрын
Good thing this came out today, otherwise I would've missed the deadline. Also for me, it's free until 9:00 AM tommorow, but I'm always asleep then.
@jq65324
4 жыл бұрын
I have been waiting for THAT game all my life since it's my first time playing it.
@PeterPresents
4 жыл бұрын
Love the video, here's some insights. The funeral fires of the Greeks at the beginning is a common phenomena in plagues like that which is described. The elaborate burial rites could not be performed because bodies were stacking up too much. Iliad says the beach was crowded with funeral pires. When Achilles burns his friend, it is seen as destructive with strange animalistic rituals including human sacrifice. This is to show Achilles giving up his humanity. I believe the Horse was a fake offering to Poseidon. If it represented an Earthquake, they probably would have said that since such natural disasters are all ready depicted in Iliad at the hands of the Gods, and also it makes a point to say that the walls will not fall by Poseidon's hands until a later time. My entire channel is about Iliad.
@Dartaen
4 жыл бұрын
3rd new Troy-related video I have watched in the last hours (after K&G and Invicta). Total War is really getting their money's worth...
@jmanj3917
Жыл бұрын
So it's flat-out impossible that, prior to what we Think was the start of the Iron Age, someone pioneered the use of iron for any number of reasons before its use became widespread? Someone had to do it first and show its benefits. It very well could have been used then and at other locations where Iron ore was readily available rather than the popular copper alloys.
@calebhowells1116
4 жыл бұрын
Given that it’s been shown that virtually all of Homer’s descriptions match the early Dark Age (800-600 BCE), as outlined extensively by Irene de Jong and (particularly in terms of the warfare and armour) Hans Van Wees a reasonable conclusion would be that the Trojan War actually occurred, well, in the Dark Ages. The only reason it’s common to believe that it occurred in c. 1200 BCE is because that’s when the Ancient Greek historians estimated it happened, but it is demonstrable that a lot of their assumptions were flawed (like the fact that they misdated the fall of Nineveh, which they used to date other events, but they misdated it by almost 300 years, and the fact that they assumed that each generation in a sequence lasted for upwards of 30 or 40 years, when most generation gaps in reality would have been 20-25 years). So there is good evidence that the Trojan War actually took place in the Archaic era, probably in the eighth century, thus fitting the descriptions by Homer.
@calebhowells1116
4 жыл бұрын
The Catalogue of Ships, by the way, definitely matches the Archaic era, not the Mycenaean era. Irene de Jong, for example, states that ‘all recent studies agree’ on this point, ‘despite earlier attempts to show that it fits Mycenaean geography.’ And to be clear, there are definitely plenty of settlements mentioned in the Catalogue which did not exist in the Mycenaean era. And the same is true in other records about the Trojan War. Herodotus, for example, says that Helen and Paris Alexander first went to Heracleion in Egypt before they arrived at Troy... but Heracleion wasn’t built until the 8th century BCE. This is just one example, but there are many more.
@ahorrell
4 жыл бұрын
5:36 - nice "wine-coloured" sea. Clever
@isaackim3312
4 жыл бұрын
Its nice that the game lets you dive into Troy
@DDWyss
4 жыл бұрын
I got my copy of Troy: A Total War Saga today! So stoked! I never would have known about the Epic Games giveaway if not for you guys! Thanks so much!
@exkiller27
4 жыл бұрын
And my morning just got better!
@AronFigaro
4 жыл бұрын
Honestly, from my experiences in wargames and the history of small unit and clandestine engagements, I am a firm believer that the horse was literal, a false surrender offering used as a distraction for a daring commando raid. Were the actually INSIDE the horse, or were they disguised as slaves bearing gifts? Who knows, but I think it is very believable that it was in fact the mythological Greek gift that threw open the gates. Either way, I don't think there was a massacre of drunken revelers, as the Mycenean economy did not, as far as we can tell, recover. I think it was a bloody mess, and the fleet, winning Troy, split between a skeleton garrison, and the group that limped home. Does this explain why the Myceneans were one of the earliest to fall to the Sea People? Quite possibly. Troy was a port city. Take the possibility that over a ten year siege, many of Troy's sailors left for the islands, founding semi nomadic fishing settlements to avoid being starved out. Fast forward a hundred, two hundred? years. How far did they go? What did they learn? They may well have turned to raiding to survive, and with the weak state of these late bronze age kingdoms after their many wars, that could very well explain everything.
@littlekong7685
4 жыл бұрын
I tend to agree, the horse was likely a literal gift horse offered as sacrifice to the gods to expedite a safe retreat. But it was placed in an unguarded location where the enemy scouts could still see it, so they could steal it and claim the gods favour for themselves. I had not considered that it would likely be surrounded by offerings (possibly of booze), and "slaves". The question is whether the slaves would be commandos, the booze and "victory" induced parties distracted them for a traditional scaling of the walls, or if a hidden force ran in while the gate was open and filled with only workers hauling a horse and not soldiers.
@jonasnee
4 жыл бұрын
the trojan war coincides with the bronze age collapse. it is likely the destruction of troy was part of the bronze age collapse, and it is also likely it wasn't the greeks who actually did it.
@commonpepe2270
4 жыл бұрын
1:13 plate mail is not a thing outside of DnD. mail refers to what people call chainmail nowadays and plate is, well, what it says on the tin: armour made from plates. you can combine the two, but they're still fundamentally different styles of armor.
@wheneggsdrop1701
4 жыл бұрын
Learning something new about troy and a free game cheers!
@scottnunnemaker5209
4 жыл бұрын
I still think the whole Trojan war is actually a tale of the sea people’s attacks. They are a group made from various groups who don’t use chariots and instead prefer masses of infantry, so, the sea people’s.
@crazyviking24
3 жыл бұрын
At the time of the Bronze Age period that the war likely took place in, Empires like the Hittite and Egyptian Empires used war chariots as mobile archery platforms and in massive numbers. The use of chariots as a means of transport to the battle likely occurred in the period between the Mycaenaen and later period.
@TheRedneckGamer1979
3 жыл бұрын
There is a podcast about this that goes into much greater detail, Fall Of Civilization is a wonderful podcast that is well researched and worth a watch or a listen.
@scoutobrien3406
2 жыл бұрын
The shield curving in on both sides reeaaallly makes me think that at least in their local groups they were *meant* to be fighting pretty lockstep and shoulder to shoulder. A gap midway up the *outer* rim of your shield is a huge liability for getting stabbed unless there's a comrade packed close on your left with your outer shield gap and his inner one combining and held pretty steady to make a circular opening for his stabs in an otherwise protected wall. If your comrade was meant to stand even a couple paces from you your outer gap isn't needed for his spear and just makes you more flankable.
@RPGmodsFan
4 жыл бұрын
"The Face That Launched A Thousand Ships..." That does not mean a thousand ships were launched all at once. It probably accounts for the same ships making several round trips back and forth, over 10 years, between Mycenae (or Greece) and Ilios (or Troy). Hence, I think the saying should really state: "The Face That Launched A Thousand Ships Over A Decade."
@TheLoyalOfficer
Жыл бұрын
Iron weapons were possible - it was the cusp of the Iron Age when the war took place. ca. 1200 BC or so. Same with funeral pyres - probably more like mass burnings of friendly and enemy dead to make sure disease did not break out in the Greek camp. They knew about that back then too.
@derekbates4316
Жыл бұрын
So, that means Little Red Riding Hood might be true? Mind blown!
@georgedude2218
4 жыл бұрын
The first few minutes of the video straight up describes every total war troy battle
@Robochuck
4 жыл бұрын
Awesome! I hope Troy is a good jumping-on point for Total Wars, I have never played one before!
@petersmythe6462
4 жыл бұрын
It was primal BUT we should remember that chariot warfare was a highly complex industry with a large scale international supply chain. In many ways more modern than medieval wars, let alone Neolithic warfare's small totalitarian citystates fighting.
@hawlitakerful
4 жыл бұрын
What about the idea of those 142 000 men did not show up at once but more over the duration of the war as reinforcements or even sort of troop rotation
@rtwfreak2012
4 жыл бұрын
8:35 literally noone is hyped fot TWS Troy. The best thing to come of that game so far is this pair of videos.
@Tristan-Raisch
4 жыл бұрын
I'm hyped enough to grab it for free.
@pozzowon
3 жыл бұрын
7:15 "only could've been built by cyclops" Cyclops: bronze age aliens
@thriceasright
4 жыл бұрын
There's a detail that's really bothering me about the boar tusk helmet: How was Odysseus able to take out the 30-50 feral boars needed to make one if he didn't own an assault rifle?
@sumanthganapathibasavapatn141
4 жыл бұрын
i'd think he wouldn't have actually personally hunted them, he would have had them collected or bought from numerous hunters and had it crafted for him (seeing as he was quite a rich dude). It doesn't make sense that he would take all that trouble to go into the woods to kill a bunch of wild pigs just so he could have a really cool hat. No, I think they mean by implication that the boars' tusks would have served as a status symbol because boars are hard to kill, not that Odysseus personally killed that many boars.
@Oxtocoatl13
4 жыл бұрын
Well, he was king, so... he had poor people do it for him? Or vassals gave him tusks from their boar hunts as tribute? Or he bought them? There's no reason to think that high status men wearing boar tusk helms hunted the materials personally. Royal status symbols typically represent one's ability to acquire rare and precious materials in large quantities through wealth and connections.
@syferpolski4344
4 жыл бұрын
Board aren't feral in europe, and in the middle ages they were hunted with boar spears. A board spear is a spear with a crossguard behind the tip to stop the boars charge once the spear is deep enough to be lethal
@talknight2
4 жыл бұрын
@@syferpolski4344 r/whoooosh?
@ashenen2278
4 жыл бұрын
Or maybe the helmet was passed from generation to generation
@peytonreed937
4 жыл бұрын
Looking great so far!
@benchehebar2833
4 жыл бұрын
1:25 An army of heavy infantry heavily armed and armored
@ArkadiBolschek
4 жыл бұрын
That's heavy, man.
@historyisawesome6399
3 жыл бұрын
At the battle of Keeshond 50000 soilgers engaged with 50000 more in reserve so warfare was huge
@barbiquearea
4 жыл бұрын
"What's up Minotaur" while showing a cyclops.
@arcarcon4620
4 жыл бұрын
he called the cyclops a Minotaur 9:04
@flaszgoat7693
4 жыл бұрын
1000IQ
@vicentescangarelli2361
Жыл бұрын
“In every lie and myth there is a small amount of truth”
@AxelKuno
4 жыл бұрын
there is a theory that homer wasn´t describing Greece but actually Scandinavia. He mentions some islands and the location of those that makes no sense except if you place his stories in Scandinavia.
@jeremy1860
4 жыл бұрын
Even though we may never know the whole truth of the Trojan war, it's always great to hear people talking about it 😉
@aidenjayheaviside3799
4 жыл бұрын
I'm starting to just imagine historical events, especially ones with either no associated pictures or before the advent of the camera, as filled with extra history characters, like i can barely imagine a ancient soldier as a person it's just animated people lmao
@yeetthyannoyingchild2346
4 жыл бұрын
yay new video...BINOD
@charlesdeleo4608
4 жыл бұрын
So when I was 19, I actually did some post by post role play, and one such scenario had us enter one of three books to reclaim a lost object. One of those books happened to be The Iliad. My character completely defied the odds, as I wrote him as having come from an era similar to the Middle Ages, and so when I did my posts, he actually fought from horseback. I chose that because I figured Bronze Age armies would not fare well against cavalry.
@sargentvanguard7612
4 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad they did these episodes and teach us about the greaks,and without them we wouldn't ever be the same,as they made many HISTORICAL evolution,they made astronomy (I think,I'm pretty sure)and geometry
@ValerieDelaMarch
4 жыл бұрын
The last two were the arabs
@sargentvanguard7612
4 жыл бұрын
@@ValerieDelaMarch ???
@alexanderchristopher6237
4 жыл бұрын
Micah Stein A lot of modern astronomy and geometry were the results of Arab and Persian polymaths. However, they drew it from many Greek sources, which in turn drew theirs from Babylonian and Egyptian sciences.
@ZurLuften
4 жыл бұрын
Do an episode about Fukushima disaster. it would help to understand it...
@wilhelmrk
4 жыл бұрын
Big wave + big earthquake + outdated nuclear plant = nuclear catastrophy.
@osanieslana960
4 жыл бұрын
Pretty sure that while armor was worn in war in that age. The heat of battle was so much that most greeks fought naked wearing only a helmet, and using a shield with their sword or spear. In fact the Illiad describes men fighting in that manner.
@adambracchi3475
4 жыл бұрын
That pronunciation of Mycanae actually kills me, other than that great video as always
@calebhowells1116
4 жыл бұрын
How should it be pronounced?
@red5t653
4 жыл бұрын
@@calebhowells1116 My-ka-nay
@MsJC96
4 жыл бұрын
Alot of the historical inaccuracies come with the oral tradition. The story was being passed down so new stuff was added to help with the poetic tradition.
@theresahemminger1587
4 жыл бұрын
Virgil says the huge Trojan horse was left with a man tied to a leg who told the Trojans (after the Greeks ostentatiously sailed away) that the Greeks had given up and left the horse as an offering to Poseidon for fair sailing. More mysterious is the Iliad story related by Helen. She says she walked around the horse during the night, knocking on it and imitating the voices of the soldier’s wives. All while declaring her innocence in the whole matter.
@aliikman8199
3 жыл бұрын
(in D&D vibes) 4:23 well homer kind of forgot this is the bronze age and metal weapons were not yet there
@a.z7469
4 жыл бұрын
5:12 Jack Churchill is pictured holding a longsword, not the Basket-hilted Scottish broadsword he actually carried into battle. Broadswords were very broad bladed, were used one handed and had a guard that enclosed the hand all the way down the hilt to the pommel.
@LuxTheSlav
4 жыл бұрын
Went looking if anyone else noticed. Although, I doubt he'd have a particularly broad bladed one, since he wasn't actually Scottish. More likely he'd carry a regimental version, which had a much leaner modern (at the time) military blade.
@a.z7469
4 жыл бұрын
@@LuxTheSlav Hard to say, considering he brought a longbow with him
@LuxTheSlav
4 жыл бұрын
@@a.z7469 I don't see how that influences his sword.
@a.z7469
4 жыл бұрын
@@LuxTheSlav It could be a sign of him leaning into fully traditional weapons. Or nothing at all.
@LuxTheSlav
4 жыл бұрын
@@a.z7469 To clarify some, in this picture of him: d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/369/649/large_v2/4f25ffcc.jpg?1568732882 I think you can see the Sam Browne sword frog on his left hip, which would more likely be worn with a current-issue sword than a much broader antique. Of course, it might have been an older sword. Research is ruined and made frustrating by clueless morons who keep spamming the internet with drawings and the like of him with the medieval longsword version of the "claidheamh mòr".
@eldermoose7938
4 жыл бұрын
honestly bronze age war sound pretty awesome as a game setting
@user-gy7cj4gt8o
4 жыл бұрын
Nice
@terrorcop101
4 жыл бұрын
Come to think of it, wasn't Posiedon credited with sending a sea monster to kill a prophet who spoke against bringing the Trojan Horse inside the city? Maybe that’s a clue to merit the earthquake theory.
@JimIBobIJones
3 жыл бұрын
The Trojan war, as depicted by the Iliad, wasn't a myth: it was an epic poem. The big difference is that myths are thee realm of tradition and oral transmission to the point where it is a given part of a particular society, without really any notion of authorship or questions of origin. The Iliad was an epic poem with clear authorship, it is very likely that there was a legend, myth or oral history on which it was based but we can't be sure as no surviving sources attest to it before Homer. What is clear is that the Trojan War itself was very likely well known enough that it wasn't Homer's creation, but what exactly it was (outside of Homer's epic and later literature) is lost to time. That raises a lot more doubts and questions around Troy. If there was a well known historical event, then that gives credence that actual facts would likely have been orally transmitted from a real war. However, if it was a myth then details are much more likely to have been created by Homer himself. To complicate the matter even further, the fact the Iliad itself is literature means that Homer had creative licence to deviate from any well established facts around the war - in a heroic epic (as with any piece of literature) the narrative takes precedence over historical events. Think of Shakespeare and Macbeth, Macbeth is based on a real Scottish king but none of the events depicted in the play actually took place.
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