Oh man. By the end, when Rowntree was giving his closing thoughts, I started crying (and not because he forgot the scripture 😁). This episode proves that theology doesn't lead to arrogance. I had my eyes opened today.
@michaelrowntree2005
3 жыл бұрын
☺️ Glad it blessed you!
@jessedutch3086
3 жыл бұрын
Yes, great to see how energized you guys were on this topic, really spilt over to all us listeners! What a great talk. What a blessing.
@chrisj123165
3 жыл бұрын
I recently converted to Lutheranism from a Reformed Baptist church. Dr Jordan Cooper was instrumental in helping me understand the differences and opening up my eyes to the importance of the sacraments. If you are still held up on the issue of baptism watch his videos and it'll finally click I promise. That was my last hangup as well!
@jessedutch3086
3 жыл бұрын
@Christopher, which of his videos would you suggest? He has quite a few out there
@benjaminmcrill911
3 жыл бұрын
This was one of my favorite episodes you guys have done so far!! This topic was so rich and fascinating and beyond just stimulating my mind, I was moved in my heart while listening to it.
@jonathanadam8631
3 жыл бұрын
This reminds me of one of my favorite qoutes. " When the eyes of the soul looking out meet the eyes of God looking in, heaven has begun right here on this earth.” ― Tozer, A. W. This is the beginning the middle and the end of our walk. Confidence to approach a Holy God and take the eyes of my heart and stare at him eye to eye and feel no shame. This is eternal life that I might know Him this way. Get so close you can see your reflection in His eyes and then you discover I love him because he first loved me. I’m captivated by him because he was first captivated by me. My life becomes obedient because his love compels me. I must act out this life the burns within me and he is graceful to give me commandments to walk in. It is him who works in us, both to will and work for His Good pleasure! What an amazing God Gives me passion when I stare at him with the eyes of my heart, gives me works when I go into the world to express this love
@wessbess
Жыл бұрын
Great discussion guys. I love Dr. Jordan Cooper. His knowledge is immense.
@Athabrose
3 жыл бұрын
Great discussion, just ordered Sacred Meditations from Just and Sinner.
@koffeeblack5717
3 жыл бұрын
Good talk, but still so much discussion about the scholarly and theological approaches to Theosis. What's needed to balance this is more actual mystics/contemplatives describing the process phenomenologically so that we have a contemplative map rather than just a contemplative theory. Without a discussion of the experiential/psychological side of the process makes it sound like an unattainable ideal only a handful of saints have ever achieved.
@1paigemaddox
3 ай бұрын
I found this very interesting after a dream about it. I never had heard of it!
@evren.nikolaos
Жыл бұрын
I really feel like Dr. Cooper brushed aside the question about Essence and Energies in a way that doesn’t really get at the point of the question. He’s right that the E/E distinction is helpful in qualifying that theosis is not apotheosis, but to say it’s not necessary for explaining theosis doesn’t seem right to me. Are you partaking of the essence or not? Is there a distinction or not? Martin Chemnitz in The Two Natures of Christ explicitly says that the attributes are identical to the essence. Maybe Dr. Cooper disagrees with Chemnitz on that point but the presence of absolute divine simplicity in the Lutheran tradition does pose a very significant problem for the doctrine of theosis. That Westerners like Luther seemed to believe in some kind of theosis doesn’t really touch on the question if their doctrine of God actually allows for theosis as the Fathers understood it. Maybe he gets into it more in the book though
@mrgeorge1888
3 жыл бұрын
Pop Scott, can you explain "three realms"? Kinda curious here.
@storyofscripture
3 жыл бұрын
woot love this stuff
@beowulf.reborn
Жыл бұрын
"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." ~ 1st John 3:1-3 If it was not revealed to the Apostle John "what we shall be", then we should all be very careful not to go too far in trying to understand what it means to become partakers of the Divine Nature.
@beowulf.reborn
Жыл бұрын
A better statement than Athanasius', would be, "God became the Son of Man, that man might become the sons of God."
@cindystokes8347
3 жыл бұрын
I am not watching this and I’ll tell you why. I have a feeling I would come down on Dyer’s side but am so disgusted by Dyer’s disrespect via side comments he makes on his own podcast about Jordan, who has done enough in his ministry to deserve respect. Dyer is smart but his pride sometimes blinds him such as when he denigrates those who believe in a biblical model of the cosmos over the lies of the Jesuits and NASA. He doesn’t even bother to be brave enough to debate them. He has lost all my respect because his immaturity and desire to appear “cool” (which is love of the world) leads him to inevitably descend into ad hominem.
@FalconOfStorms
Жыл бұрын
The biblical model of the cosmos is the one that we see when we go up very high on an airplane, because there is a 1 to 1 ratio of correlation between the scriptures and reality. NONE of the prooftext verses used to support flat earth conspiracies actually support a geocentric flat earth model.
@ikeknows5253
3 жыл бұрын
Sixth day of requesting a Creationist discussion/interview on the show and promising to join Gold Tier on Patreon if you all do!
@theologymatters5127
3 жыл бұрын
If memory serves me, I think they've had William Lane Craig on with that topic before
@theologymatters5127
3 жыл бұрын
Haha, join gold anyway, it's so fun😊
@1will4
3 жыл бұрын
Will you rest on the seventh day? 😉
@ikeknows5253
3 жыл бұрын
@@1will4 Haha, If I wasn't before I am now!
@JonathanBhagan
3 жыл бұрын
ties into recapitulation theory
@JesseDLC
3 жыл бұрын
Good topic. The distinction between Uncreated Grace (The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul) and created grace (the effects of the Uncreated Grace) are one way in which the scholastics explained how one can participate directly in the divine nature while still remaining a creature, although deified. Catholics typically refer to this as divine filiation or adoption, and sanctifying grace. The Holy Spirit (and thus the Trinity) mysteriously come to dwell within man at his baptism, re-created him as an adopted son of God. He is now said to be in a state of grace. He then grows in his justification/sanctification (or deification/ divinization/ theosis) by his continued partaking of the Eucharist and the other Sacraments.
@markohakkola5180
3 жыл бұрын
except most communicants just continue to partake without growing in sanctification. Is that fair to say?
@JesseDLC
3 жыл бұрын
@@markohakkola5180 No, I don't think that's fair to say only because there's just no way to know since our soul’s sanctification isn't measurable to us.
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Жыл бұрын
Is the grace is created it means it us not actually God himself operating
@JesseDLC
Жыл бұрын
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας no no no. It means exactly that God *is* operating. You cannot have an effect (grace) without a cause (God).
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Жыл бұрын
@@JesseDLC i am talking about the actual operation of God,not the effect, his energy ενέργεια as it is written in the original language text of the New testament.That energy is allways uncreated . We see in Paul δύναμις power of God and ενέργεια energy as synonyms ,and both are seen as uncreated.
@r.lizarraga693
11 ай бұрын
53:00 - No, Moses' face was shining physically as well, not just spiritually. That's why he had to wear a veil over his face. Same with Stephen the martyr. Same with Christ on Mount Tabor. For people who claim to take the Bible seriously, you certain change the meaning of Scripture when it doesn't fit your worldview.
@sspashleymae24
Жыл бұрын
I converted to conservative a lutheran chruch from a catholic up bringing.
@othername6345
3 жыл бұрын
If I crochet Michael a Jane Cobb hat, will he wear it and say "Pretty cunning, don't you think?"?.
@mysticmouse7261
Жыл бұрын
A painful example of the abstract irrelevancy of the topic. The mind game has no empirical observable consequences. If we are transformed it's the best kept secret of human history bringing us no closer to finding out how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
@bradkafer5965
3 жыл бұрын
Theosis is inherently Christological. In the Incarnation God became man. The Word took on flesh. In the hypostatic union in the One Person of Christ we have one who is both fully God and fully man. We worship our Mediator the man Christ Jesus because He is very God of very God. Our human nature is exalted to the highest place in Christ. No other creature or creaturely nature participates in God in this unique way. By virtue of our union with Christ we too become partakers of the divine nature. Our human capacity is expanded to include elements that are not possible apart from this union and participation. Like the iron in the fire we become fire without ceasing to be iron. The properties of the fire belong rightfully to the fire yet they are now our properties as well because of our immersion into Christ in God. In Christ this incorruptible reality has been accomplished and established forever. It is impossible to understand or even have theosis apart from Christ. I wonder if the Palomites struggle with trying to distinguish essence and energies (which a Thomist would ultimately find problematic) in part because they are wrestling too much with theosis apart from union and participation in Christ? I would have to study Gregory of Palomas more to know the answer to that. But suffice it to say this was a wonderful video and this topic desperately needs more theological retrieval in Protestantism today. Thank you for having this interview!
@jeffdevries8538
10 ай бұрын
In Orthodoxy, we share in the divine nature through the energy or activity of Gods grace, we do not partake or share in God’s essence, that would lead to adding to the Trinity. We do not become God. This the essence / energy distinction.
@Awakenidentity
3 жыл бұрын
Check this out Mystical Union by John Crowder...
@biblicalworldview284
3 жыл бұрын
Soli Deo gloria
@jessedutch3086
3 жыл бұрын
Yes, we wanna see Michael get creamed on baptism!!! I still need to be convinced babies were baptised in the first century too, then I'm over. Last stronghold standing 😂
@chrisj123165
3 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately you're going to be holding on forever then unless you take the household baptisms mentioned in the bible to include all members of the family including babies and children. All other mentions of baptism in the first century is explicitly about converts. What is it about the infant baptism that holds you up? I think John the Baptist is proof that God can give faith the infants. However without the faith and word at baptism then it is only just water. Lutherans do not hold to an ex opere operato view.
@jessedutch3086
3 жыл бұрын
@@chrisj123165 yeah, good point. Last week I was thinking : where is the discussion in the early church on baptism and babies? By the end of the 3rd century it seems to be assumed by the whole church, from far east to far west. Other questions as: would John the Baptist keep the babies out of the water with the inauguration of the coming messiah? Im starting to be convinced that the babies are direct partakers. Buts dispensationals are subborn types 😆
@chrisj123165
3 жыл бұрын
@@jessedutch3086 I would personally believe John the Baptist himself didn't baptize babies as the baptisms he's performing would be more tied with the old covenant ritual baptism of the Jews. This is coming from the fact that the post resurrection command of Jesus to baptize in the new covenant had not been established yet. As for dispensationalism that's going to be much harder to defend historically than infant baptism lol
@TheNathanMac
3 жыл бұрын
People are going to think I say 'Bl***y' all the time HAHA
@matasaina2011
3 жыл бұрын
Thought it was a case of bad breath
@waitingandwatching9328
3 жыл бұрын
Thanks guy learned a lot... I love just being a Christian without all the "labels"
@ThruTheUnknown
3 жыл бұрын
Hmm why interview a Lutheran on a subject such as theosis that really isnt a wheelhouse of Lutheranism instead of someone that's eastern orthodox? By the way Christification is a very nestorian like term to use for it (that's one reason why you shouldn't take the advice of a faith that doesn't have theosis as their central dogma). Not to mention theosis without an understanding of the veneration of the saints really is just paying lip service to the subject.
@mgkos
3 жыл бұрын
Why is this group of individuals describing themselves as orthodox Christians in the description? They’re quite simply not Eastern Orthodox. “Protestant fathers”? Their use of Theosis? Apotheosis? Why are Protestants who broke off & knew better now trying to rebrand themselves back to original ancient faith EO?
@ultimatezak
Жыл бұрын
Deification doesn't have anything to do with the veneration of the saints. It is between you and God alone.
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Жыл бұрын
@@ultimatezak wrong Theosis is an ecclesiastical issue .the union with God is not a ego personal issue.
@ultimatezak
Жыл бұрын
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας "Therefore since we have such hope, we use much boldness, And are not like Moses, who put a veil on his face so that the sons of Israel would not gaze at the end of that which was being done away with. But their thoughts were hardened; for until the present day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being unveiled to them that the veil is being done away with in Christ. Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart; But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:12-18) "And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:11) I don’t know about you but that sounds quite personal. Unless by ecclesiastical you refer to the Church, the Body of Christ at large and to Ephesians 4:13 what you are saying sounds very different to the Bible- “Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," But I doubt you refer to this since you mention veneration of the saints which makes me think by ecclesiastical you mean clergy/dead saints in which case I am extremely worried that you are confusing receiving God as life through His Spirit mingling with our spirit and thus dispensing Himself to us and making us like Him from glory to glory with possible idol worship, worshipping man or in the most charitable interpretation, somehow receiving God by thanking dead saints. We receive God by accessing God and approaching God in spirit, not by approaching people who are not God. "Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession." (Hebrews 4:14) "Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help." (Hebrews 4:16) "But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness." (John 4:23-24) "For through Him we both have access in one Spirit unto the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;" (Ephesians 2:18-20)
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Жыл бұрын
@@ultimatezak what is your point here ?
@mysticmouse7261
3 жыл бұрын
Theosis Shmeosis a great place to begin Christian deconstruction cause it's creepy and not manifest
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