I can't wait for Hera to react to Viper reacting to Hera
@PurpleWarlock
8 ай бұрын
It's called GamerLegion meeting.
@mygoodnessmyguiness
8 ай бұрын
I think they call that a conversation.
@Dirkulos
8 ай бұрын
That's what we all want and need
@spookynya3066
8 ай бұрын
I can't wait for SotL to react to both videos while doing some crazy math
@somebody-anonymous
8 ай бұрын
Also unedited and with another notepad, of course, it's gonna be a gem
@myne00
8 ай бұрын
As a relative newcomer to the game, it seems silly to me that a monk can steal a building but not get the ability to make those units. It's add some interesting depth to the game if you could steal a building and then get tech your civ doesn't have. Eg Malay steal a lumber camp and then can research 2man saw. Or steal a stable as Incas and make cavalry. Etc.
@88porpoise
8 ай бұрын
I think a big issue wirh towers is, if tower rushing is actually a decent strategy it is bloody frustrating for most players. Even when not broken, it is just not fun for most people to play against. So it ideally would be something that would work occasionally as a surprise strategy but generally be bad for most regulwr players level.
@4everdex
8 ай бұрын
I feel like towers should be buffed in a way that makes them better as a defensive tool, but not as an aggressive tool. I don't want any more tower rushes than there are already, but I feel like making a tower a better option to defend against early aggression would be great.
@alexbrennan9928
8 ай бұрын
I want to see them implement a "No formation" formation. When toggled units will not form up into any shape, each unit instead taking the most direct individual route. I think that change would help infantry out a ton
@kotzebrecher
8 ай бұрын
They should call it the "AoE1 formation"
@iyziejane
8 ай бұрын
Wouldn't that create a ton of collisions?
@renbowo
8 ай бұрын
@@iyziejane no because when units in a formation decides to move to a point where you choose, they first try as hard as they can to go into formation and when it gets close to the destiny, depending on the formation, it goes into the "neutral" formation, which makes the units cluster into themselves, suffering a lto of collision, and stuttering a lot, which make you lose movement, actions and damage dealt on enemies
@chronographer
8 ай бұрын
I really love the aoe2 unit formarions, it's part of what makes it aoe. But it's fun to play with some other game engines and see how different things can be for unit control. Viper should try out a game called 'beyond all reason' controlling units in that is so smooth and fun
@alexbrennan9928
8 ай бұрын
@@chronographer I agree they're very unique and in some cases they are a skill element., However every single time I play infantry i always end up with my infantry moving away from the direction I want them to go to form back up with some other units, infantry do not gain as much from formations as cavs and archers do and IMO it has been a weakness of theirs for the entirety of AOE2.
@Naccarat
8 ай бұрын
Now make your own balance suggestions so Hera can react to it
@davidwhite2463
8 ай бұрын
LETS NOT BALANCE THE GAME CURRENTLY TILL WE FIX THE PATHING!!!
@TimClauson
8 ай бұрын
Word
@danieltoth9742
8 ай бұрын
B-but... we "fix" it every update! (But seriously, I don't understand how it keeps getting worse. Basic movement that already worked before, now fails left right and center, and yet the Mule Cart, which is a brand new advanced "building-unit" type that could cause all sorts of pathing problems with villagers, somehow *that* works almost perfectly on release. Devs are running a marathon before learning how to walk.)
@mario97br
8 ай бұрын
@@danieltoth9742Verschlimmbessern
@mario97br
8 ай бұрын
Idk what happened, but my answer seems gone, so again: „Verschlimmbessern“
@demiserofd
8 ай бұрын
I've recently been testing a reduction in the Infantry Pathing Size. Before, if you attack command 20 longswords into 10 knights, the knights usually win with 3-5 remaining. Then I reduced the Pathing Size of longswords by 25%, and repeated the same exact test, and now the infantry are actually winning, sometimes with as many as 9 units remaining! Not only that, but they path SO much smoother, getting into the fight in a fraction the time. 25% might even be overpowered, I don't know, but it doesn't make the models overlap or anything, so I think this really is the way to go with infantry.
@tinyman1144
8 ай бұрын
What is pathing size? Because in my experience 20 longswords always win against 10 knights in current regular game, and often even just 15 or 16 longswords can win against 10 knights. (I play a lot of infantry and my general rule is 40-50% more longswords compared to knights to reliably win fights)
@micahbonewell5994
8 ай бұрын
@@tinyman1144 the collision size of the unit aka how many units can be stacked in x tiles. Smaller collision size would mean less bumping and better pathing. Though it could look jank
@demiserofd
8 ай бұрын
@@tinyman1144 Pathing size is what they changed on Steppe Lancers a while back; they doubled their pathing size, so they couldn't stack as close to each other as easily. It's basically the size of the circle around them. Anyway, I did quite a few tests in the editor; are you sure you're not comparing longswords with better blacksmith techs or maybe against knights without bloodlines?
@auberry8613
7 ай бұрын
@@demiserofd I love that change thematically cause it helps carve out infantries currently shaky niche of being the "mass unit"
@tinyman1144
7 ай бұрын
@@demiserofd Quite sure, though often we both lacked second (castle age) attack but still equal upgrades in the fights I counted for these. Of course this all from games that I rewatched for fun, so take your test results as more reliable I'm sure. no idea if both players lacking the castle age attack might have something to do with it? 10+1 vs 1+2 armor, and 9+1 vs 2+2 armor
@joshc6493
8 ай бұрын
Hera says he wants to do these balance videos regularly - what he should do is have Viper or one of the other GL players on live to react to his takes live and have a discussion. Or maybe make this discussion a regular part of the podcast on the GL AoE channel. Viper raises great points in this video and it would be a really interesting conversation to hear Hera respond to them in a live discussion.
@Naccarat
8 ай бұрын
They could alternate each month, would be pretty cool tbh.
@roboyle
8 ай бұрын
I loved this content *because* it shares more than one opinion, which is sort of the conversation point you were making. The balance in the game between civs has never been so even, and the balance changes between patches has been less dynamic (and more balanced!) themselves. As only a viewer (only have AOE2HD!) I would have my own views on balance, like making tech costs dynamic (feudal techs cost more when acquired in Castle or Imperial) as the rush up through the Ages is almost the only way to go any more... a militia rush with more than three units might be interesting occasionally!
@verdiss7487
8 ай бұрын
"If you give infantry 0.92 speed, Dravidians would be OP." 3:05 I know this is likely just a joke, but there is something true to it. There is a big issue that I think is holding the militia line back right now, and it's that civ bonuses for infantry are way too strong. They have to be, otherwise infantry would be utterly useless. For example, 33% faster attacking infantry still gets 0 play, if the devs wanted Japan to go infantry they might have to tune that up to 50% or even higher. Japanese infantry get, for free and in feudal age, the same benefit that Bulgarians get to their cav with a castle age unique tech, with the added benefit of Japanese champions being fully upgraded unlike Bulgarian cavalier. And, still, Japanese don't play champions almost ever. In other cases, you have Malian champions with a free +3 pierce armor, compared to Sicilians getting +2 with an imperial age unique tech; Goths with 35% cheaper infantry versus Berbers 20% cheaper cav; Vikings getting 20% extra hitpoints, whereas Franks get the same nominal 20% boost to cav but lose out on the bloodlines tech, giving the an effective cav HP bonus of only 7%. The levels that the devs have pushed infantry civ bonuses to, just to make them vaguely viable in some very niche situations with some very specific civs means that every potential infantry buff is being effectively multiplied. Giving the militia line +1 attack isn't giving it +1 attack, it's giving Japanese +1.33 attack. Giving them +20 hitpoints isn't giving them +20 hitpoints, it's giving Vikings +24 hitpoints. And so on. In my opinion, changes the the Militia line have to be dramatic, a lot more than just minor speed buffs, and they will by necessity have to be paired with reductions to the scale of infantry civ bonuses. Hopefully someday we might see a militia line which isn't: countered by everything, counters nothing. Edit: and now I watch a bit further in an Viper pretty much gets at this exact idea
@Pacamol
8 ай бұрын
Your message makes a lot of sense. The generic militia-line is clearly too weak, and civ bonuses affecting them are definitely too extreme in an attempt to make them viable for the civs concerned. Perhaps the solution is to transfer a small portion of the civ bonuses to the generic unit, like: a little bit of the Goths' cost discount & creation time decrease, a bit of the Celts' speed boost, more attack speed from the Japanese and slightly more HPs from the Vikings.
@danieltoth9742
8 ай бұрын
I get the feeling that the Militia-line's biggest problem is not just speed, but cost as well. They have so many upgrades just to make them _usable_ (not good), which slows down an already slow unit even further. The many unit upgrades are all a necessity: Longswords in Imp are damn near useless -- while Light Cav still do just fine (and that upgrade is much cheaper too). Squires is needed to stop every other unit from running laps around yours. Armor is even more critical against ranged units, since being slow means more hits taken. And even after upgrades, Longswords still don't trade well vs Knights, which are stronger _and_ faster _and_ more cost effective _and_ require less commitment. TLDR: Militia-line needs too many upgrades just to break even with other units, that also have other qualities on top, like speed or range.
@bvzv
8 ай бұрын
You should go straight from LongSword to 2h/champ depending on what your civ is allowed to go for.
@aralornwolf3140
8 ай бұрын
I have several "solutions" to this problem. One solution I came up with is.. 1. Make the Militia be their own unit, upgraded slightly upon each age up, but costing only food. (They become the trash unit.) 2. Increase the health, armour, and damage of the spearman line, but instead of "wood" they cost ~5 gold and food. (They keep the bonus vs Cav) 3. The Man-at-Arms begins the swordsman line. Reduce the cost slightly. They are overall better than the spearmen line. (they gain advantages vs trash units) Second solution I came up with is... Reduce the range of ranged units by 1. Slightly reduce the speed of ranged, cavalry, siege units to compensate. This makes it easier for infantry to get into range of archers faster as they effectively gained MS over the other units. Of course, the issue really is the imbalance between the unit types. Most battles were of infantry. Typically cheap infantry. Yet, infantry was countered by archers. Archers were countered by cavalry, unless they took precautions to prevent the Cavalry from flanking them. Siege weapons should be potent, but immobile. The fact is, if you have a choice between fielding a company of cavalry or a company of infantry, the cavalry is better. Worse case, they fight on foot, making them expensive infantry. Best case, they use their mobility to win battles. *Shrugs* That expense is only reflected, in AoE2, in the training cost and training time. It takes 15 hits for a Longswordsman to defeat a Knight. While it takes a Knight 7 hits to kill a Longswordsman. Thus the imbalance... knights aren't twice as expensive as Longwsordsmen.
@Dissident_Agreessor
8 ай бұрын
Agreed, on the odd chance I'm thinking of a Militia line switch in late castle or Imp it's like cool I will have that unit in..... 10 minutes after sinking thousands of resources into getting it going. It's weird how I can get a long swordsman on a horse in castle age right out the gate, but to get a long swordsman on foot, that's a much harder prospect somehow?
@inconemay1441
8 ай бұрын
Just remove the unit line already, they 're so DAMN useless!
@hansenxavier4403
8 ай бұрын
MAA in aoe4 are also expensive, but they are at least viable unlike in aoe2
@GeorgerGeorger-wh7zf
8 ай бұрын
Entire video be like: "I dont necessarily agree or disagree with Hera."
@el_kasztanejlo8555
8 ай бұрын
Only a sith deals in absolutes
@shino4242
8 ай бұрын
"I have no strong feelings one way or the other!"
@KamisKapi
8 ай бұрын
It depends
@AviSandy
8 ай бұрын
Yea if you're reacting on something you must give your strong opinion
@GeorgerGeorger-wh7zf
8 ай бұрын
@@AviSandy True
@nicksdrumsticks
8 ай бұрын
Hera: civs need more versatility so here are some ideas Viper: changes are hard and we need to be careful I think we need these two to be chatting live so we can get some real discussion. It would also be good to hear viper comment on the higher level goals that Hera is trying to achieve here.
@TheSrijitMajumder
8 ай бұрын
These guys need another TC session with Masmorra
@artolaganus
8 ай бұрын
Now we need Daut to upload a reaction video on vipers reaction video
@georgeshaw8563
8 ай бұрын
Viper has an amazing way of making the perfect joke, without saying anything, just implication
@botond3141
8 ай бұрын
What about a video where the GL boys come together to talk about balance everyone bring 1 or 2 changes. I would love to listen to it, you could even split the video where everyone will post their part like your changes on your chanel, hera's on his, tatoh, daut. Would love to see it, hear it.
@olgidos6999
8 ай бұрын
Why not enhance the Infantry line by increasing their damage against buildings? This way, they'd be a middle ground between standard fighting units and rams. They'd be less effective than knights and archers, yet still have a unique role. This change could boost early aggression while still necessitating a varied unit composition, preventing any single unit from dominating the game. The developers have already attempted to encourage early feudal skirmishes by reducing wall and building HP. However, giving the militia line a purpose in early siege could be another approach. I'd also find it intriguing if they adopted the Age of Empires III mechanic of infantry throwing torches at buildings instead of engaging in melee. Perhaps giving the Arson technology a 2-range against buildings would allow multiple infantry to attack a single wall segment.
@Connection-Lost
8 ай бұрын
Arson
@maskarone
8 ай бұрын
Nah that's too much with arson. I think pros have overlooked the offensive capabilities of the the militia line actually. The reason the YouPudding works is because it is extremely offensive and the slow movement speed of the serjeants doesn't matter as you have to adress them. In the same way the militia line with arson could be used, they would be a threat that you have to adress or you would loose all your buildings, and then their lack of speed is okay. So giving them even more damage against buildings + arson would make this very cheesy and strong.
@fuac
8 ай бұрын
Arson giving range to infantry against buildings would be cool. But they really need to make infantry easy to upgrade. Make the longswordsman and two handed swordsman upgrades free and instant for example. It needs drastic changes.
@geoffrey1955
8 ай бұрын
One balance change I would love to see..... Meso civ unique techs applying to Xolotl Warriors! They still miss bloodlines and armour upgrades however it would add a fun element to the game without major impact. Aztec xolotl warriors with 10 + 8 attack would be pretty cool even with missing stats...
@micahbonewell5994
8 ай бұрын
too much work for unit that will only be seen once every 100 or 1000 games. And usually even then in low numbers.
@JarmamStuff
8 ай бұрын
@@micahbonewell5994 It cant require that much work, and it would be absolutely amazing to see in those rare cases
@vaelophisnyx9873
7 ай бұрын
@@JarmamStuffyeah its literally like, 2 line changes. zero effort change.
@engineering_guy
8 ай бұрын
Woah. Viper really showing his experience. Lot of angles that Hera didn't think about.
@garrettshort7920
8 ай бұрын
No kidding
@Connection-Lost
8 ай бұрын
Whoa*
@feeroldent9462
8 ай бұрын
thats a bit unfair. Its always esayer to react. I think they have just different approaches and maybe Hera thougth about some of the points Viper said and just had a different opinion. But ofc Viper will think about some thinks Hera doesnt :) Just dont think its a fair comparision. Nevertheless I agree with Viper more than with Hera :D
@engineering_guy
8 ай бұрын
@@Connection-Lost uk english 😬
@blackgoku2023
8 ай бұрын
@@feeroldent9462 I am sure hera planned and thought a lot before making the video. But viper had no idea about what hera going to say,Still viper gave some good points. What hera thought for hours or probably days,Viper instantly thought better than that. Instant pointing on Infantry and Tower show us how much experienced and expert viper is
@davebuikema4119
8 ай бұрын
I think we can look to real world examples for inspiration. In real life, it takes longer to learn to ride a horse and shoot a bow than it takes to learn how to swing a sword or stab with a spear. Therefore, the barracks units should all be producing MUCH faster than the current rate. This buff will not affect the balance of army compositions, nor will it fundamentally break any game mechanics. Another consideration: in aoe2 a unit or a technology costs gold to represent an investment of the economy to support the tech/unit's development. Perhaps, considering my aforementioned point of how infantry would require less training than archers/cav, the militia line could cost a little bit less gold. This fairly represents real-world economic/historical factors as to why infrantry was ever even used.
@JJBeauregard1
8 ай бұрын
When it comes to balance, I feel like Hera tends to look at potential changes too much in a vacuum. He rarely considers all potential areas one single change could have and at the same time fails to recognize when a change has a high chance of being useless because you can pin a suggestion to an existing example already, like with the militia movement speed thing.
@Refrakktion
8 ай бұрын
Both Viper and Hera really need to install Notepad++
@robertherlihy917
8 ай бұрын
Viper being lazy and accusing Hera of being lazy while recting to Heras vid. Classic Viper troll.
@NC7491
8 ай бұрын
Viper should create a new video series called QuickReacting as a pun for his famous Quickwalling prowess. But his videos will just have to be one word sentences like What? How? WTF? No shit! I 'd watch that.
@achaean4780
8 ай бұрын
Wow... I was JUST typing about attack animation when you brought it up. Thats a must change imo, even if it doesn't completely solve the problem. I feel the problem with militia "feeling" slower as viper said is because even if an individual unit is faster, the whole mass of militia gets blocked by the frontmost one. If that in hits once, it stops for an eternity completing the animation and clogging everything up. And also archers can just snipe the forward unit, the only one which was presumably moving at maximum speed while the rest lags behind. Id love to see a mod with no collision and see how a group of LS does chasing xbow, not to implement like that ofc but to better visualize the effect of collisions when chasing at a small speed advantage
@thomasmuller546
8 ай бұрын
For the Huns-Horse on nomad: i dont feel like it does alot. it has very short eyesight and more often than not even if you are on live-cam with the pony you run straight into the opponents tc and become horse-meat. There is also some luck involved of course. In some games it might be great, in others it might be 100% useless. Overall i think its okay to have this unique thingy for the huns there. balance-changes: nothing new, but before aoe does big balance-changes they should put all ressources into fixing the pathing-issue. not to an acceptable level, but to a good level. glad im more of a daut-approach to microing units so im not thaaat affected, but even for me its annoying. not only with archers but also group of 10 villis randomly running into the same corner instead of pathing through the gate.
@LokirofRoriksted
8 ай бұрын
I agree with hera on hating double+ nerfs for specific problems, but he also gave a monaspa double nerf and is presenting a few double buffs which I disagree. I still remember bulgarian's nerf. They lost paladin, nerfed konniks HP AND nerfed their attack rate by a ridiculous ammount all in the same patch. My idea for infantry, since he's comparing the movement speed to archers and hc, I'd say, just nerf archers and hc movement speed to 0.9 or something. Maybe add squires for archers to compensate. I think aoe2 buildings need to be destroyed more quickly than they currently are. That will surelly shake up the meta and people will stop all this walling spending like 50 resources to block hundreds of resource worth army. I mean, they can still wall, but it wont last as long as it is now where a single 25w house can keep 4 man at arms hitting it for 4 minutes
@seancsnm
8 ай бұрын
Viper: Are Celts MAA good? Every
@justlolit
8 ай бұрын
Heras changes were very conservitive, overall. Just small changes to see what will happen. I think its an excellent starting point.
@enigmaaoe3503
8 ай бұрын
"He wants to make AOE2 a much better place, (viper sarcastically) lets go" I fucking love viper lmfao 1111
@Blitzprogger
8 ай бұрын
When talking about improving the viability of the militia line, I tend to agree with a suggestion from Sandy Petersen, one of the original designer of Age Of Empires: The militia line should be cheaper. This was also their historical advantage.
@Asterix958
7 ай бұрын
They are already good damn cheap, 45f 20g, almost as cheap as Pikeman 35f,25w. Difference is that Pikeman can counter Knight while Longsword counters no unit. If they counters buildings and Castles with bonus +8/+9 damage, they will be viable in my opinion.
@JimCullen
8 ай бұрын
This is exactly how a stream reaction should be done. Lots of interjections, some genuinely hilarious quips, and a lot of meaty serious responses to the ideas presented in the original video. Nice stuff!
@darkranger116
8 ай бұрын
"dont make a big difference" thats the entire point of his approach. Change it by a small amount and then go from there.
@BlueShellshock
8 ай бұрын
8:29 -- YES, I've been saying this one for a long time, reduced attack delay on Militia Line would do wonders for infantry chasedowns in the same way that Fast Fire ships can somewhat fire while chasing after ships. This lets infantry still be slow and kitable, but still able to 'catch' fleeing enemies when the gap is closed, *which is where a melee unit is supposed to do well*. 0.02 speed increase is a wuss of an upgrade. We need buffs with hair on its chest if the intention is to make real changes.
@JarmamStuff
8 ай бұрын
"Longswords now grow more hair on their chest, adding another +1 pierce armor and 10% movement speed from not needing to wear as much metal anymore"
@Progeusz
8 ай бұрын
Light cav attack change from 7 to 6 would have been HUGE. Light cav aren't used just vs monks. They are used vs vills, skirms and crossbows too. Killing one hit slower is a very big deal. It can often be a difference between killing the vill or not, killing two vills instead of three, denying the TC or not. When fighting vs groups such things snowballs quickly. Killing a unit faster means taking less damage which lets you dominate harder as the fight progresses. Conversely killing the unit slower means taking more damage which means losing attack pwoer of your group leading to even slower damage output vs the enemy. That's a WAY bigger difference than -25 wood for towers which Viper opposed heavily.
@TheSceletonx
8 ай бұрын
I honestly think infantry should be buffed more significantly (and if that makes some civs broken, just nerf the bonus that make it broken - and move from there. (later on you can introduce different bonuses for those nerfed civs etc).
@ViciousSatsuma
8 ай бұрын
If you allow Donjons in Dark Age, cap them at max 1.
@naveenramkumar6123
8 ай бұрын
who all shouted "Laaaazzyy" when Viper said, "btw, this video where I'm reacting to Hera is also going to be unedited" ?
@donhooplah
8 ай бұрын
I think more variety would occur if the level of UUs was increased for a lot of civs. For too many civs they aren't viable options often enough and strong UUs tend to be over nerfed (Eg. Ghulam)
@dirkauditore8413
7 ай бұрын
Just introduce the snare mechanic from AoE 3, that way once the swordsmen close the gap, the archers are screwed. A small unit cost decrease wouldn't hurt, either.
@coolblade23
8 ай бұрын
why not just give bulgars fortified churches ? it would kinda fit them historically anyway
@forsakenquery
8 ай бұрын
I feel Vipers critique of the infantry change actually supports the change. It won't change much maybe but it will help.
@ditoorkodashvili6018
8 ай бұрын
Huns horse CAN kill. You can block the boar luring villager with it.
@tobiasobermayr501
8 ай бұрын
Militia line needs to either become cheaper or - get way more HP/ Armor. They are slow, no range and little HP/Armour compared to other Units like Cavalry. Also they have no bonus against anyone, basically, right? They have nothing going for them. Somehow it must become more viable to get to a strong army force. What about eliminating all Upgrades? The militia line automatically researches upon the next age. This would make them at least a quick punch. If something is slow you gotta make it strong. There is no reason they can't have higher pierce armor than a mounted knight. A footsoldier with shield should actually be better at dodging arrows and fending them off. This would make them strong, even if they are slow. And you can mass them to be an anti everything unit basically. Atm they are a little too weak and too many upgrades to tech into vs knight line and way too slow and weak pierce armor vs Archers. So they lose to the other 2 rock paper scissor teams. It's as if militia line is soapbubbles that loose to all other ones and kinda beat paper (halbs). I think I found the solution make them somewhat good against anything. They are already good vs. buildings and trash now solve the archer and calv and tech problam and you have yourself a fine unit that actually is a nice buffer inbetween the rock paper scissor triangle. This could open up new strategies of combined armies which actually is historically accurate since there was seldenly all archers fighting all footsoldiers or all knights etc. Love my own idea here.
@thefatherfarmer5282
7 ай бұрын
I think Militia just need more base hp. Or a more direct pathing and faster strike speed.
@matteo.pilgrim
8 ай бұрын
Radical suggestions... -Pikemenline should have less hp... buuut... have 1 range! Make them squishy in close combat, but amazing when bunched up. -Knightline should have small charge attack.
@CommissarLORDBernn
8 ай бұрын
Kamayuks already have the 1 range. I could see it being that upgrading from spearmen to pikemen gives them +1 range, then buff Kamayuk to have 2 range instead of 1.
@patonnight
8 ай бұрын
The issue is with that 1 range, pikemen would be better than militia-line overall, which isn't a good thing. You can see how much advantage that +1 range give on pathing and melee fights on SOTL videos. It is not a small feat.
@alexkfridges
8 ай бұрын
No
@xShikari
8 ай бұрын
@@patonnightIt's probably difficult AF, but they could program them to only have +1 range to cavalry.
@ViciousSatsuma
8 ай бұрын
I think a key issue with militia/m@a is how fast people go up to feudal these days, using deer pushing, which gives militia so little time. And if you want to attack early with militia, you risk missing out on your own deer pushing. Solution: stop scouts being able to push deer.
@verdiss7487
8 ай бұрын
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the death if the deer pushing meta, but I do feel like buffs to the militia line should be made with the intent of making them useful throughout the game, rather than specifically targeting their current use case as a ultra-early feudal unit.
@robertenger3863
8 ай бұрын
Maybe some hidden extra attack range for infantry? Like .2ish? I mean they do call them LONG swords right? :)
@chovitodelat
8 ай бұрын
I agree to not agree with what Heras agrees, i would like to see how Hera to react to Viper reacting to Hera
@samadams2203
8 ай бұрын
Purely as a viewer, I feel like AoE2 is very healthy right now, apart from the perennial problem of infantry being rare to see due to nicheness. I see lots of games with tech switches, early/lategame play and a good mix of cav, archers and siege. I also feel like the recent monk changes were good. So uhh, buff infantry somehow, I aint an expert.
@SimoneBattaglia94
8 ай бұрын
I think early game is pretty one-sided at high-to-pro level right now.
@Ymgarl
7 ай бұрын
0.02 speed for the militia cuts down the speed advantage for archers by 1/3rd. It's not insignificant for the early game.
@__lim494
8 ай бұрын
Just Militia line +2 damage vs all the trash line
@synt4x1e
8 ай бұрын
Dravidians op = viper happy 😂
@superjarri
8 ай бұрын
I suggested some time ago to add a "raise shield stance" that would add a +2 pierce/melee armor and -2 attack. You can switch it on or off like ratha melee or range attack. This way, you have to micro them and raise your shield against archers and lower it to attack.
@walkermyers3808
8 ай бұрын
How much SHOULD we increase militia move speed?
@voidgods
8 ай бұрын
Although it can be argued that Hera is currently the best player overall, I trust Viper's decades of experience more, in understanding how these changes would impact the game
@Mangeol
8 ай бұрын
As someone who manages a balance mod played primarily with friends on random Civs I am really happy seeing these changes. I am a bit more aggressive sometimes but still. From my mod: Militia Movementspeed increase from 0.9 to 0.92 Man-at-arms Movementspeed increase from 0.9 to 0.925 Long swordsman Movementspeed speed increase from 0.9 to 0.93 Two handed Swordsman Movementspeed increase from 0.9 to 0.94 Champion Movementspeed increase from 0.9 to 0.945 Pike line Movementspeed increase from 1 to 1.02 Same Archer Changes Mining tech cost - impacts Archers Reduced from 100f 75w to 75f 50w Shaft Mining tech Cost - impacts Archers Reduced from 175f 75w to 150f 75w Steppe lancer - Too strong super early, falls of late. - Mongol steppe lancer HP bonus halved! from 30% to 15% Hp increased from 60 to 65 Cost increased from 70f 40g to 75f 40g - I did increase food cost instead. early castle age it is more impactful. We did somewhat have the same idea. Mine just isn't as much of a nerf in lategame. Elite Steppe lancer - Too strong super early, falls of late - Mongol steppe lancer HP bonus halved! from 30% to 15% Cost increased from 70f 40g to 75f 40g Hp increased from 80 to 85 Monaspa Training time increased from 11s to 15s Elite Monaspa Training time increased from 11s to 13 Melee armor reduced from 5 to 4 Sicilians Damage reduction increased from 33% to 40% - I actually made it 30% + (10% as a teambonus) right now for some testing but still same idea Donjon Cost reduced from 175s 75w to 175s 45w Huns bonus is an amazing idea! That I did not think about
@Progeusz
8 ай бұрын
Wow that must feel amazing to have such similar balance ideas as another person. Good job on your mod!
@JunSian1001
8 ай бұрын
Can anyone explain to me why Bulgaria is out of the meta? It has pretty viable UU and fully upgradable knight line (besides paladin). Its archer line is a dead end but its CA line is almost fully upgradable.
@xShikari
8 ай бұрын
It has PRETTY viable UU and fully upgradable knight line (BESIDES paladin). Its archer line is a DEAD END but its CA is ALMOST fully upgradable. Do you know why now?
@MadnessTW
8 ай бұрын
Good point on Steppes. The unit might need a buff, but Mongols might need a nerf. They could reduce the HP boost they get (separately from LC) and/or reduce the food bonus. I favor doing the latter first and seeing what happens.
@neildutoit5177
8 ай бұрын
Sandy Peterson's suggestion for the millita line of reducing their cost? Make them spam like they were IRL.
@Akimbob321
8 ай бұрын
The Horse on Nomad can actually kill something :D In my first game with the horse, I used it to body block a vill which was luring a boar. :D
@WillyMacShow
8 ай бұрын
i want the chaos. Bring them towers back. those games were amazing haha
@atmyyoutube
8 ай бұрын
The secret for infantry is for it to be cheaper, not faster.
@micahbonewell5994
8 ай бұрын
Supplies is already a thing, the Malay Already have their gold cost removed. It hasn't seen them be a centerpiece unit. All the best infantry unique units are fast ones: Berzerks, Woad Raiders, Samurai, huscarls, ghulam etc. I could see an argument for more melee or pierce damage, or for removing reducing the unit upgrade cost e.g. Man-at-arms, longswords etc.
@titusbaum9690
8 ай бұрын
Militia Speed: Too Little. Agreed w/ Viper. What I would do: Separate Militia from MaA/Long Swords, etc, similar to clubmen/broad swordsmen in AOE1. No reason for militia to cost gold! They are literally a dude with a club. Then make them scale slightly through the ages similar to scout cav so drushing isn't insane. Make militia speed 1, keep others at 0.9. Make Barracks cost only 125 wood instead of 175. This will dramatically reduce the by-in cost of infantry and you will see many more. X-Bows: This also fixes the Drush FC complaint, so we can keep the current X-Bow prices! Arb can come down, idc. IRL, spear/pike was the most used weapon. So to make pikemen more viable as a mainline unit without becoming OP, reduce their bonus damage, increase their base damage, and reduce bonus damage against them. Remove minimum range from skirmishers and give them a higher base attack and lower range. Can *you* throw a spear as far as you can shoot an arrow with a bow? No? Why not? Couldn't be because it is physically impossible! Also add 1 melee armor to at least elite skirms. That shield can't only be good against arrows? Towers: I'll go with Viper here. Steppe lancer: Remove the range. It is absurd. Sorry, but it is. Bulgarians will be fine with my infantry changes as those will also make heavy scorpion / siege onager plays more common vs enemy infants. They will be find. They'll lose the insane auto militia->MaA, but I don't think we'll mind. Maybe give them X-bow, maybe? Monaspa: Just increase training time by 14-35% and it will be just fine. These guys are glass cannons. Huns: Agree with Hera. Sounds fun. Except for the horse in nomad. The Huns should excel in nomad, "The Huns do not need houses!" They should not suck! Sicilians: 33->40% is fine. Forget dark age donjons. Too much going forward and dropping pre-feudal donjons.
@shadowwind18
8 ай бұрын
Militia line: reduce gold cost. However, I'd love to see speed changes as a rough reflection of "real life." Champions should NOT be faster than militia. Simply look at what they are wearing. For many things, real life provides very good balance already. And no way should a guy carrying a gun be slower than a full plate armor guy with 2H sword on foot. At its heart, AOE is inherently fun because it's close enough to realism that it feels like fantasy AND historical. Lets keep tapping into the historical part and let people develop creative strategies around real, significant, differences. By the way, we need to be able to direct/rotate facing direction of formations on the move (or in place) by holding Shift and scrolling the mouse wheel - or something similar. [I'm sure Ill add more to this comment as I watch the rest of this].
@letswaveabook3183
8 ай бұрын
Actually, I am not a fan of Hera. He undeniable has amazing exectution of his (meta) strategy. He is a great player, but not a genius. The suggestion for +0.02 speed for MAA, examplifies the kind of logic we see from him. The comparison to Celts movement speed explains how nonsensical this logic is. What bothers me most when players talk about MAA balance: It's design is to be slow and unranged. That makes it difficult to kill villagers in a raid and limits their viability. Their viability is a natural result of their role.
@PunicCurse
8 ай бұрын
Hera… double buffs and double nerfs are bad!! Also Hera, we should double buff and double nerf this and that… 🤦🏻♂️
@JJBeauregard1
8 ай бұрын
Hera: "I absolutely hate double buffs and double nerfs!" Also Hera: "Let's buff/nerf this globally available unit/building but also buff/nerf civ-bonuses of the civs that regularly make these units/buildings we just changed."
@lordmetzgermeister
8 ай бұрын
Most of what Hera suggested are tiny changes that won't have much of an effect on the game and I think that's exactly the point. Everyone agrees that the game is really well balanced atm but some changes are required to enable more strategies and gamestyles. I would like to hear Viper's ideas for balance changes as well. However FIRST OF ALL Microsoft, fix the pathing. Please.
@vaelophisnyx9873
7 ай бұрын
the issue is people ushering strategy game balance further and further into "micro-hell" territory. Its not strategy anymore, its just click faster = win. The same thing that killed most RTS franchises, chasing the "balanced" gameplay of...Starcraft 2. APM focus is antithetical to strategy games, and will be the death of any that chase it.
@nlb137
7 ай бұрын
Viking's Chieftains should be "baked in" to most infantry. Cavalry are fast and pop efficient. They don't need to *also* be resource efficient vs. non-spear infantry. Longswords should be resource efficient vs. Knights at a baseline; Knights are pop efficient and can chose whether or not to engage. Give a small anti-cav bonus to militia line (and champion-equivalent unique units) to make that more the case.
@minikawildflower
8 ай бұрын
Wouldn't Hera's suggestion of giving a buff to the xbow price kind of counteract making infantry more viable? I guess most militia/MAA play is usually done by the time many xbow are out, but it does seem like these two changes could counteract each other a bit.
@lbridet
8 ай бұрын
Mongols hp buff removed from lancers would solve it. Bulgarians are bad because they have too many terrible matchups (any good camel civ, CA civs, most gunpowder civs), tc buff is meh.
@Pacamol
8 ай бұрын
The title and introduction of Hera's video slightly oversold the content. 😂 None of his proposals seems likely to change anything of the gameplay, except the archer-line upgrades discount. The other suggestions are either tiny (+0.02 speed boost on militia) or very specific.
@CirrowProductions
4 ай бұрын
This is my solution for the infantry problem. Instead of having all these upgrades that were added to increase their stats, simply have them be trainable from most buildings. Houses, archery ranges, stables, etc. This gives them a unique role in the game, you can spam infantry if you're in a tight spot because you have so much production.
@darkaquatus
8 ай бұрын
22:50 The bulgarian 50 stone to 25 stone TC is perhaps the worst suggestion hera could give. Just imagine. There would no longer be any reason to build any mills or lumber camps anywhere anymore. Just spam TCs everywhere on the map. Bulgarians will be the first civ in the game which will be literally impossible to raid. It's a massive late game problem. No. Just no.
@JohnSmith-tk7nt
8 ай бұрын
If 15% MAA speed does literally nothing to make the unit more viable then we should give the unit 20% movement speed. Were not going to get viable infantry meta until we OVER tune them imo. Then we can dial them back
@dodgydondbo1361
8 ай бұрын
Entire video is viper saying “lol no” to suggested changes, and vipers not wrong.
@mrb3nz
8 ай бұрын
I disagree with reducing xbow cost so much. Xbow is still possibly the biggest power spike in the whole game. Even just 5 crossbows can one shot villagers, right? And archers are the easiest unit to mass in feudal because they don't cost food. I think the xbow meta was very boring and it's good it's been nerfed
@MoRDekai1364
8 ай бұрын
What would you suggest to make Bulgarians appealing civ? I play them all the time and they always feel so resource and time consuming. How about we add a new regional unit (just for variety ): a war boat. With different skins for the Slavic and island nations
@Y2JKB8
8 ай бұрын
I think pros always forget that 90% of the players are under 1300 so things that are too strong for them could be considered weak at lower levels because of the skill difference, I think the biggest example are monks, no one can use monks well at low levels so you only see them for relics, when you do changes you need to consider how it will impact both worlds I usally play automatch with friends and we get people in the 800-1200 range and I see way too many knights because they are easy, once you have the eco running you just spam knights, avoid pikes and maybe camels and hit everything else, one of the most common things that I see are mass paladins destroying TC and sometimes even castles, they don't get much damages from arrows and pikes are too slow to catch them, the skills aren't good enough to stop that so games end like that, I would like to see the knight line (and similar units like Monaspa, Leitis, etc.) get a big nerf or at least reduce by a lot their ability to destroy buildings because people play scouts into knights all the times
@flyingsteaks
8 ай бұрын
5:32 damn that Celt infantry comparison was really good by Viper, so yeah I guess if you wanted to buff the movement speed (And I particularly think they should) it would need to be by way more than 0.02
@mzil
8 ай бұрын
Well, the point is the TOWER DEFENSE (sry) should be viable for any civ in spite of any bonuses for that...
@fiester4910
8 ай бұрын
Some civilizations are really weak, like the Bengals, Aztecs, but the worst is Burma. I really like it, but it's not suitable for the game. I also think that swordsmen are too weak; hardly anyone ever uses them. The best are siege machines > Cavalry > Gunpowder units > Archers > Anti-cavalry > Elephants > Infantry. Additionally, some castle units are rubbish, such as Urumi warriors, Ratha, Jaguar Warrior, Arambai, Serjeant.
@Bobby.B619
8 ай бұрын
The lobby browser system and all these MS Points lobbies and how you have to scroll down and click "Show more games" is so horrendous, the fact that to this day I can't add someone as a friend in game. Please fixxx this is the worst UI that I have ever used in my life its so clunky and outdated.
@Patton243
8 ай бұрын
To be fair I don't want high level players balancing the game. I want the development team to balance the game. Because these high level players quickly forget they're only a small part of the entire community.
@SimoneBattaglia94
8 ай бұрын
A wild suggestion to help drush and m@a comeback: nerfing fast walling. How? Making unit hit through diagonal walls. So you either have to wall 1 tile away or do straight walls. It sometimes already happen as a bug but I think it might be a useful feature. I agree on the tower discount. But another option would be maybe instead going from 50/125 to 50/110. Which forces you to have wood economy behind towers but makes them more viable. Another nerf I would propose? slightly lowering the gather rate for deer (half between sheep and boar) so they become more of an extra food than a fast food thus making early scouting a bit more viable and luring a bit less worth. I agree on xbows discount but disagree on arbs discount. Some units collision box should be also slighty changed for better pathing and engagements.
@Rofel_Wodring
8 ай бұрын
The ranged unit vs. melee unit isn't a buff or nerf issue. AoE just doesn't have turn ratio in any game where this is true ranged units are the meta. LoL vs. Dota, LoL has no turn ratio and any melee champion has a jump/dash/blink ability to close the gap otherwise it's a impossible matchup. In dota melee heroes are viable against ranged heroes because it has turn ratio since it comes from Warcraft 3 where turn ratio is also present.
@MrTheQuestioner
8 ай бұрын
Thanks for giving me a chuckle from the jordan impression “diss cruh pan see”
@bensonrabe6728
8 ай бұрын
I disagree with adding gold to stepp lancers. Mongals stepp is cheezy, but it would ruin tartars and cumans lancers. Have to mass lancers to be good. 1 knight can beat 1 lancer easy
@gregoreo1826
7 ай бұрын
Solution is to mimic reality better. Higher cost for mounted units, less accuracy for ranged units. problems solved.
@glennalting9992
8 ай бұрын
or really really slightly bugg militia mspd and really really slightly nerf archer movement speed should prevent certain civs from becoming straight up OP and should slightly solve the archer vs infantry issue
@Cristuuu
8 ай бұрын
you guys worry about such little things, where's war elephant +2 speed and +100 hp? or where is make onagers and bombard cannons 200 gold more expensive? or make infantry actually attack instead of walking in circles and die before attacking
@Werevixen
8 ай бұрын
Would be nice that Sicilians as a cheese civ actually would be bad at one thing. Hard pass on this Donjon change. They shouldn't get even more early rush potential.
@orCana
8 ай бұрын
Why roast Hera :( My Idea to push Militia line would give them way more dmg vs buildings, so that they have an upside in building dmg vs the knights speed.
@grandengineernathan
8 ай бұрын
Dungeon in dark age could be incredibly broken, imagine seeing one being built on your berries while in transition without being able to stop it
@ahmadalammouri78
8 ай бұрын
Use villagers to destroy it maybe?
@emadsaberi
8 ай бұрын
I mean nothing's stopping you from battering it down with villagers if you scout for it. It's a pretty big investment for the sicilian player to a) get loom. b) send one/a few vills forward in dark age. c) avoid detection from your scout and wolves. and d) drop 75 (or 50) wood on a donjon. And e) forego the benefits of just having a safe donjon at home. If it is problematic, we can nerf the dark age donjon's HP and bring it back up in feudal age like we did with feudal watch towers. I'm more concerned with a Sicilian fast castle being impossible to stop, considering you can garrison ten villagers in a donjon for protection. Even if it doesn't shoot arrows in dark age, having it on your gold or woodline before feudal army gets to the Sicilian players' base would make a sicilian FC incredibly smooth. Imagine you're on your way up to feudal, and you build a donjon on your most exposed resource node. Even if you go up with a few more vills (like 23 vill up), you're in a terrific spot to defend from any small feudal army, a tower rush, and can easily get a stable + blacksmith up because you're spending fewer wood than most civs due to the donjon costing less wood than a barracks. Once in castle, your knights will be hard to stop due to receiving less bonus damage, your serjeants get the instant castle age upgrades, and your TCs build nearly instantly. The castle age timing and pressure would be crazy.
@grandengineernathan
8 ай бұрын
@@emadsaberi sure, villagers could be used to take it down, but that assumes it was detected by the scout in time, and if the Sicilian can wall the dungeon, it just has to hold until feudal age. This strat would be just like a standard dungeon rush, but instead the vils and dungeon can directly shoot arrows upon reaching feudal. With the aim being to have the dungeon pop at the moment you hit feudal, and the opponent has no way to counter tower. And then there could still be the possibility to make sergeants or idle tc to do a phosphorus
@TimClauson
8 ай бұрын
I can see spam dark age donjon happening very easily.
@specificgod3627
8 ай бұрын
*Donjon
@dylanfalk3243
8 ай бұрын
Donjon I’m dark age, no arrows till feudal, and it has to be made within 15 squares of your starting tc till feudal
@tinyman1144
8 ай бұрын
I only wish pikemen were not faster than militia. It's rediculous that spears outrun militia/man-at-arms. I think they should be the same speed, whether that is slowing the pikes or speeding up the militia line
@whossname4399
8 ай бұрын
Hard agree with Viper's take on towers. Tower rushes are very boring. An interesting mechanic would be if towers were cheaper if they are built near a TC
@fasstaerke
8 ай бұрын
really interesting to see hera implementing himself into GL cause I have a feeling no other GL player likes him. Daut, Viper and Tati are all kind of best friends, hera already feels like a fifth wheel.
@lazthegreat10
8 ай бұрын
Strongly disagree with making a building act differently depending on the age, shoots arrows sometimes other times doesn't. no thank you
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