I don't know much about Forest Shuffle, but here are a couple POSSIBLE reasons they made a couple of these decisions- • For the tip cards, keep in mind that cards are printed in sheets. If you don't fill the sheet (usually ~108 cards), the extra will be wasted (it gets trashed/recycled, but you still pay the printer for it). Depending on how many cards are used in the game, they may have chosen to use the extra card slots to print the tip cards, therefore SAVING paper. • For the "insert," keep in mind that inserts primarily exist to keep game components safe during transport. Without the cardboard insert, the cards would be shifting around inside the box, banging against the edges (in waves during ocean freight; dropped & tossed by lazy shipment workers). Since they didn't use plastic wrap, the cards would be even more vulnerable. They made the insert kind of nice and presentable for storage, but it's really there (first and foremost) for shipping protection. (Now, if they had reduced the box size to hold the cards snugly, they could avoid the need for the insert. That would be more eco-friendly, but there are tradeoffs for that.)
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Thank you for the insights! I can definitely see how the printing considerations affect the publisher's decision and it does seem like it could lead to more of an involved process to get the reference cards assembled as part of the rulebook or a pamphlet. Even if the extra cards were inevitable, It's still confusing/ disappointing that they chose to print one-sided reference cards instead of consolidating them and making player aids, turning the board into cards, or even adding a mini-expansion/ more content, any or all of which would have been an improvement imo. :c And fair about protecting the games for shipping, but I agree with your latter point about reducing the size of the box overall. I have a lot of games where the box houses the cards fairly snugly with no extra padding and maybe just a little insert to divide two sets of cards. It seems like this is pretty standard for some publishers and doesn't present a huge risk for damage during shipping, but again, I could be missing some vital industry info here as well! :x
@kosterix123
5 ай бұрын
14 cards don’t fill leftover spaces on any 3x3 grid. It should be left in the rulebook.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@kosterix123I think depending on where the cards are published, they might print them in larger sheets. I have no actual numbers for what Lookout Games's printing machine, but being that they're a relatively large publisher, that might very well be the case. Regardless, still not jazzed about it/ how they chose to utilize the extra cards if they were inevitable. >
@Zunidrap
2 ай бұрын
You missed the point completely about the insert. The box/insert is at least twice bigger than it had to be. Producing bigger boxes and shipping more air (empty space) in a box is wasteful. They could easily fit an insert that offers the same transport safety in a box with half of that size. The only reason it's this big is marketing.
@attmay82
2 ай бұрын
This suddenly reminds me of my grocery store job. We had restaurants and Sunday family customers. There were a few months that the executives were chasing the sunday crowd. Where self presence is very important. But ultimately the bigger money making market are people who go in knowing what they're going to get and just want to find it get it and spend way more than a dozen average people. Publishing companies will eventually catch on. Also my thought is that tall back piece you would see on the hanging boxes but so it can purely have a self presence. Like the "front" is that cover and then its secretly a smaller box. And they can be shipped doubled up
@tabletoptokki
2 ай бұрын
Hoping that realization and shift happens sooner rather than later. >< And I love that idea! Seems like it'd satisfy both concerns in a reasonable way!
@pridepanda1
5 ай бұрын
Thank you for making this video! Super important discussion to have
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Of course! 🙂
@jannagregory7928
5 ай бұрын
Totally agree that I’d love to see the trend go toward smaller boxes rather than larger. (She says as she sees her ridiculous colossal edition of Mosaic in her peripheral vision.) I also thought the board in this game was kinda dumb until someone pointed out that each section of the board nicely holds 3 cards, so when it’s full, that’s 9 cards, letting you know that the next one will trigger a flush of the clearing. Since then, I’ve found the board useful because I was continually counting the cards before that insight. Now I’m glad I have the board.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That's a fair point! I think arranging the cards in groups of three on the table would work just as well for me in terms of keeping track of the number of cards laid out. It also addresses the issue of having to place the cards so tediously in each section and the overal visibility. For me personally, I also prefer having the cards on my playmat vs a cardboard board just for ease of picking up. Not everyone may agree, but those would be my additional thoughts on the board itself. ^^
@njshaw2
2 ай бұрын
Totally agree. I actually repackaged all the components (minus the board which is superfluous) into a box almost a quarter the size, which fits inside the main box (once all the box insert bits are removed), and which I take out to take to game nights. And that smaller box *still* had room to fit the expansion. The expansion box is, thankfully, a quarter the size of the base box, however that's also oversized - it's 36 cards and a rule sheet. It could have fitted in a tuckbox, not a box that could fit almost 4-6 times the number of cards.
@njshaw2
2 ай бұрын
Oh and I've never used the reference cards. The QR-code-linked appendix is more detailed, and any queries I've had I've ended up going to that anyway. The reference cards are superfluous, as you say.
@tabletoptokki
2 ай бұрын
Oh man, it's extra frustrating that customers have to go through to MAKE their own boxes/storage solutions on top of everything else... ugh. Glad you were able to find a solution that works better for you though as far as that goes. RIP reference cards. :c
@njshaw2
2 ай бұрын
What could be a cool idea is to have boxes that could fold down into smaller spaces (maybe ending with double-thick walls, but maybe you tear bits off), so that the resulting box is a quarter the size. So bigger box for shelf presence in stores, but players can collapse it down to save on storage space. Smaller boxes also mean more can be fitted on a pallette and thus in a shipping container, saving overall shipping costs. Yet publishers still create this bigger boxes. Store-front sales can't be THAT affected by box size still, can they?
@tabletoptokki
2 ай бұрын
Oooh modular boxes sound cool. Could have great future-proofing utility as well for expansions, etc. ^^ And totally agree... Since our FLGS started carrying/demoing/pitching smaller games, like Oink games, it seems like they've been selling WAY more stuff. Even though those games are smaller boxes, customers really gravitate toward what's recommended vs just picking up the first thing they see on shelves. >
@thereallifevegan897
5 ай бұрын
I absolutely HATE this... I understand they're trying to keep a shelf presence. But Point Salad is another HORRIBLE culprit of this. It's like 100 cards in a giant box. 😒 With a plastic insert. Wild.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Exactly!!! There are so many examples of this and such a wide range of offenses... It's feels impossible to not get frustrated. :c
@paulhamrick3943
5 ай бұрын
I have a different take on this. If you look at the vast majority of packaging and whatnot that you consume and throw away, most of it is from food. Therefore you can make a much bigger impact by focusing on reducing food packaging. One way to do this is to change your diet. I recently started eating mostly soups made from dry beans and fresh vegetables, lots of rice and potatoes, and I get my protein from eggs and canned fish (the tins are recyclable). I have MASSIVELY reduced the amount of stuff I throw away. I think everyone's time would be better spent on areas like that.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Definitely helpful and great advice! I think being more conscious across the board about what products we use and how they're packaged is just a great practice to get into, no matter how large or small the industry may be. :)
@joelabram
5 ай бұрын
Without the silly board, and with the manual folded in half I've got the game stuffed into a 4 x 6 photo storage case!
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That sounds so much better!!! That also reminds me that I can't believe I didn't think/ remember to show the cards just in the box without the insert.🤦🏻♀️
@jeffgoggin1394
5 ай бұрын
One of the trends that's really been bothering me about board gaming in the last few years has been the injection of all this social commentary... Board games are not any less eco friendly than everything else in life... Driving cars, the food we eat, basically everything on the shelf at Target. Also suddenly I'm told I shouldn't be playing historically accurate themes in games and that there should be lengthy discussions on rule books about a games' backstory. There was a time when I would sit down to play a game to NOT worry or think about everything that's wrong with the world. It just seems that the board game community is disproportionately worried about these things that don't really matter. It's just a board game. Sometimes it's ok to just have fun.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
A very fair point, and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject. Everyone enjoys the hobby for different reasons and their desire/ willingness to intersect that with other aspects of their life and society is going to vary from person to person. I do think that, especially in this case, where a publisher is championing a cause, it can be difficult for a lot of people to look past the clear discrepancies between the expectations set out and the reality of the product.
@jeffgoggin1394
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki I wasn't really directing those thoughts towards you. Just a feeling I suddenly got when you said you wanted to mention something that has been bothering you. I only recently found your channel and I love it. The thing I love most is that you talk about a lot of games that are lesser known (at least to me). And the ones you've turned me onto I have enjoyed immensely so thank you! As far as the other stuff ... I stopped watching most bg content these days because so much has gotten away from the games. I just think if we don't like something that a designer is, doing or publisher does, or the way they deliver a game, or the theme or whatever... Can't we just not play those games? Not buy those games? Why do we have to perpetuate negative thoughts out into the universe? And you know what? If enough people don't agree with something... It will go away naturally. Water finds a level and all that. Happy gaming ☺️
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@jeffgoggin1394Aw, thanks! I appreciate your feedback and kind words. I also have some pretty strong feels about how people approach the intersection of hobbies, like board gaming, and social commentary, so I totally get where you're coming from with that! It's also one of the reasons why I try to generally keep the focus on games/ the integrity of the game's design with a lot of content. :) Happy gaming to you too! 😊
@draco949
5 ай бұрын
I don't care about eco-friendliness in board games. It is better to use those resources and intentions to mitigate monumental waste products and fix polluted areas. Since board games are not one-and-done products, by replaying a game, we are doing our part.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Definitely not the worst offender! Still feels pretty bad opening up a game and having a mostly-empty box and components that feel more annoying rather than adding to the ease of play/ value of the game. :x
@crushingit5128
4 ай бұрын
While I'm a big supporter of sustainable (it's just common sense that Earth doesn't have unlimited resources people).... That's a good point. Board games are meant to be reused. Sometimes for decades. The use of high quality resources means that a game can be played for a long while. Think HeroQuest. Unfortunately phones and electronics and 99% of other consumer products don't share that same lifespan.
@axétério
5 ай бұрын
I too hate the wasted space in game boxes
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Glad I'm not the only one! Never feels good. :c
@DaniCha
5 ай бұрын
My thoughts on this topic is more focused on the table presence of some of the games I want to play which I think is related. I have found that while sometimes boards are necessary to the gameplay of a game, it doesn't always have to be so large. It's unfortunate, but I can't support the game designer/publishers on a game I cannot comfortably lay out on my table.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Very true as well and well said, Dani! With Forest Shuffle, I did appreciate that they didn't go with huge tarot cards, at the very least. I think a lot of publishers would have easily made that jump to "showcase the art" and "increase visibility." That being said, the board was completely unnecessary imo. 😞
@DaniCha
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki 100%! I didn't even realize there was a board for the game. I've played on BGA and if I did get the game physically, I would be surprised to see the board!
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@DaniCha100%!! I played it on BGA first and I was shocked about the board and box size. >
@AyrtonotryA
5 ай бұрын
I agree. This happens too much. Card games that pretend to be actual boardgames with big boxes or unnecessary components. Its just not wasteful, its consumer unfriendly and deceiving advertising in the least.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Well said, couldn't agree more! 👏🏻
@NoPlanetBGames
5 ай бұрын
Believe it or not, this is the short version. Great to see you highlight this topic and to have excellent engagement from everyone. It's a complicated topic and I think the onus is on everyone to do their bit, where they can. I know the board game hobby is not a significant contributor to pollution and waste compared to other sectors like food or fast fashion but that does not mean we should shy away from our responsibility to be as eco-friendly as possible. There is an increasing trend of over-consumption and FOMO in our hobby, especially with crowdfunding. How many videos do we see with people proudly showing off their new haul from some convention or other. We're all guilty in this board game glasshouse, so none of us can be throwing stones and preaching to others. It's not a coincidence that many of the top achievers on crowdfunding come with truckloads of plastic miniatures and other wasteful components. Then again, that's the market deciding what it wants and publishers responding to this demand. Even eco-friendly publishers want to sell as many games as possible and earn good margins and at certain price points, consumers have expectations on quantity and quality for base and deluxe games. Their decision to be eco-friendly with a game might also have more to do with the theme than a determination to be more eco-friendly or they may feel under pressure to include non-eco components in some games because it suits the theme for that particular game or they feel this is what their customers will expect. Most publishers will have good intentions but no doubt some greenwashing takes place. There is not a long history of eco-friendly board game manufacturing so our hobby is trying to catch up to a certain extent. Some in Europe and US already have FSC accreditation and even some manufacturers in China have FSC now as well. However, it is not just about the paper/board/components itself but also where it is coming from - i.e. is it coming from old or new forests, forests impacting biodiversity, indigenous people? How much water is used in the production and manufacturing process and is this water coming from areas that already have water scarcity? Is the production process polluting local water courses and species? Ultimately, is the game and all its components biodegradable? There are also lower economies of scale and increased complications with having games produced closer to the demand at various manufacturing sites and sent to local fulfilment centres than just having a large print run in China with a single manufacturer. There is also a significantly higher carbon footprint with airfreighted games than shipped games. In future, new low carbon technologies like hydrogen can be used for shipping and even biofuels for aviation but this is still a long way off. A publisher could develop an eco-friendly game that is more expensive to produce but looks cheaper to consumers because it does not have all the shiny plastic laminates and inserts etc. It may also be more prone to damage during shipping as others have pointed out. Retailers will only change to eco-friendly games if they are pressured or incentivised socially or financially to do so. Many below have pointed to the Reduce, Reuse, Recycle approach which should certainly be promoted. It would be great to see more board game cafes or public spaces where people can play games together in a community setting, reducing the need for everyone to have their own copy. Unfortunately, we in the developed world have a habit of exporting our waste to third-world countries that have much less capacity to recycle it and we then deem these waste exports as recycled in our statistics and off our books. I've presented on recent studies as part of my job, that highlights people largely agree that climate change is happening and something should be done about it but when asked if they would be willing to pay for this, the response is still very mute indeed. I think this is where we are at in our hobby, we would all like to see more eco-friendly games in principle but many are probably still not at that tipping point where they would be willing to pay more for this or make the necessary sacrifice in terms of their collections, consumption patterns and need for deluxe cards/board/components to provide those experiences we all crave. This discussion on improving the eco-friendliness of games is something we will no doubt here more about in future. Sorry for the long-winded comment but it's a topic I'm really interested in.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts and important points about this topic! I also had the thought about eco-friendly labels being used as marketing, but didn't want to include it in the video, because, as I said, I'm not an expert and I didn't want to make claims I couldn't back up. The idea is definitely one I worry about though. Companies adopting "eco-friendly" label for a forest-themed game ois lije the equivalent of slapping rainbows on products to be "LGBTQ+-friendly" for pride month… all of it feels SUPER icky. :/ Are there ways of seeing which companies have FSC accreditation? I also hope, like you said, that a change in consumer mindset will drive companies to change practices. It really gives me hope to see more companies like ButtonShy or Oink selling more micro and understated games that take on a "less-is-more" approach. While I know they may not exclusively be focused on eco-friendliness, I think creating quality ganes with as few components and compact packaging is a great step in helping show people they dont need excessive components to have a great time in the hobby! 🤗
@mikaeki5245
5 ай бұрын
I hated that my Search for Lost Species came closed with those 4 stickers instead of shrinkwrap. The stickers were glued super hard and left stains and glue residue on the box. I'm not even sure having 4 large stickers is that more 'eco-friendly' than a micromm thick shrinkwrap. Then the game came with an absolutely useless big cardboard boat. 🤯 That Forest Shuffle box size is a much bigger crime. It even makes taking the game to gaming events harder. I always prefer smaller boxes. This whole eco-friendly stuff is 90% marketing. There's millions of other industries who could easily reduce massive pollution with simple measures (looking at those shrinkwrapped oranges and bananas). I'm not against more sustainable solutions, as long as they are smart solutions: - smaller boxes - smart components - stuff on the inside can be wrapped in anything, but please don't use those supergluestickers on the boxes.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Oh man, I'm super sorry to hear about Search for Lost Species. >< To be fair, the stickers on Forest Shuffle seemed to be paper-based and left no residue/ were easy to remove, so it seems they're on to something there. Omg and the boat comment... I TOTALLY HAD BLOCKED OUT ALL MEMORIES OF THE GIANT CARDBOARD TREE FROM EVERDELL! What a freaking waste. It literally just got in the way of visibility/ functionality for everyone I played it with... we just opted to never use it and then I sold the whole game. >< Totally agree that there are industries that are far worse. Hope that whether companies do it for the right reasons or not though, that it does move things in a more positive direction, and like you said, hopefully with smart solutions that are w's across the board!
@pincao
5 ай бұрын
You raise some interesting points but here are some thoughts to consider. Extra cardboard may be needed to protect cards from moving around during shipping. Sadly some inserts are made just for shipping to prevent damage. Cards are printed on machines that produce large sheets of cards on a grid that need to be cut. In many cases there is extra space on these sheets which would be wasted; so not a bad choice to use for rules, player aids or reference cards. As you said, player might enjoy what the board offers ascetically. From a publishers perspective it would be hard to sell this game at this price point without the board. The publisher needs to make a profit….and I think the price is still reasonable. Finally the board might mitigate wear and tear and provide a clean surface for the cards during play which look to have an environment friendly non synthetic “wax” coating. As a side note, I am not afflicted with this game but have had have some exposure to the production side of the industry.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Appreciate the points made here! Understandably, profit is the goal and a necessary consideration when producing games so that publishers can continue to do what they do. And I agree that damage during shipping would create even more issues and waste, but there's hopefully a better balance that could be achieved with how the insert was designed/ box size/ those considerations. :/ I also see your point about at least utilizing the extra cards, but would have LOVED to have seen double-sided references for the specific cards and any combination of player aids with turn order/ general iconography, a substitute board, or even (wishful thinking) a mini-expansion. I can't be impartial about the preservation of cards with or without the board since I a) have strong feels about the board and b) use a generic playmat on my table, so a board would be a downgrade, but I know that's not everyone's experience. :x Thank you again for sharing these considerations and insights! ^^
@gobot90
4 ай бұрын
The boardgame companies could come together and decide on a standard set of pieces that all or at least most of their games use where they’re the same across all of them. So for example, if you have 10 green cubes they could be zombies in one game, kelp in another, and money in yet another. Yellow cubes could be energy in one game but gold in another. Then you could ditch all the hundreds of little cubes and tokens that you amass over the years if you play a lot of euros like I do, and use resource tracks like in some Uwe Rosenberg games. I buy pretty much every Garphill game that comes out and I can’t tell you how many of hundreds of little treated-wood meeples i have lying around they could just as easily be used in one game as in so many others. It’s one little thing that could potentially add up and make a difference overtime and it’s probably so easy to implement.
@tabletoptokki
4 ай бұрын
I completely agree! I realize it may be difficult to coordinate between companies, but I would love to see even just one publisher work on a project like this where you can just buy the resource pack that works across all (or most) of their common games. Something I thought about when I first got in the hobby, but forgot. Thanks for sharing the awesome idea! :)
@kreggie891
5 ай бұрын
I think a point that some may be missing and some publishers use, is that they use the same size box for most of their games or try to minimize the number of sizes of boxes they keep in inventory. This alone keeps waste down from a production stand point, you may feel like it’s a waste from the consumer end, but it’s actually far more effective from the production end. If you are repacking your games and throwing the boxes away then you are creating the waste they are trying to avoid. In some cases you may need to, the box is damaged, you just don’t have the space, etc. But to say that there is just wasted space for not reason is not always the case. If companies stick to just 2 or 3 box sizes then it makes it far more effective on cutting down on waste, more eco friendly, but consumers may end up with boxes that feel too large or too small for the game in some cases. There are always compromises that need to be made.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That's a very fair point as well! Understandably, not every game can/ should have a custom box an intesert. For larger companies that do have a range of box sizes though, it does seem like there are definite discrepancies when it comes to which games they put in which boxes and how they choose to package them. 🤔
@Zunidrap
2 ай бұрын
The biggest point you may be missing is shipping footprint. Shipping can be more costly and/or have more ecological footprint than the production of the game's components, so there's no way any of those efficiencies offset the cost of making a game box double the volume and double the shipping cost. This box should be half the size.
@tabletoptokki
2 ай бұрын
@@Zunidrap Completely agree and excellent point about shipping. I can only imagine what the difference in cost is in just volume alone, let alone the bit of extra weight with larger boxes, etc.
@kovray
5 ай бұрын
As someone who also has walls of games I definitely agree with you and hope that companies continue to push for more eco-friendly initiatives. I really like your point you make about it isn't any one persons fault! This is a topic that I have personally looked forward to learning more about and it's awesome to see someone make a video about it! Thanks for sharing :) However, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but I do want to give credit where it's due. Especially with Forest Shuffle where Lookout Games announced their "Greenline" subcategory of games that use FSC certified paper and are completely plastic free. So as much empty space that comes inside that box, at least with Forest Shuffle in particular, there was some conscious efforts on being eco-friendly.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Yes, absolutely! Like I said, big ups for the lack of plastic and for even creating a whole line dedicated to more eco-friendly practices! But why stop there, eh? 🙂 My hope is that companies across the board will adopt similar initiatives and be continually taking a look at how they can find solutions that support better eco-conscious practices while also taking into account feedback from consumers. 😊
@adamharoff
5 ай бұрын
Thanks for this very mindful video. I have design experience but I guess it's been a while since I've really thought about print design. It was only recently that I started pondering the process the publishers go through to manufacture board games. There is an interesting video from Czech Games called "Producing Board Games in 2024" (I'm not sure about the link-posting etiquette here) where they talk about some of the design decisions for their games and considerations like the size of shipping containers and the current supply of cardboard and paper they are working with. It seems like they try to find a balance between creativity and engineering. I agree that we coud all benefit from less waste. Packaging big concepts into a small container is one of the reasons I enjoy many of the games you review.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That sounds like an amazing video and I will absolutely be adding it to my watchlist! It's also so awesome to see such a high level of transparency with a publisher offering their insights and talking about the process. +100 for big concepts in small containers. Super glad to see some trends toward microgames and games with small footprints getting more time in the limelight! 🤗
@Trevin_Taylor
5 ай бұрын
The point about people mostly buying online so “shelf presence” doesn’t apply is an angle that needs to be more discussed. The reasons given based on brick and mortar don’t really apply anymore.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Absolutely! And even if there's an argument for in-person sales being a big consideration... my partner works at a brick and mortar store and based on how things go there, people usually either walk in already having done research online for the game(s) they purchase or they inevitably end up buying whatever the salesperson pitches them. :x
@billable1861
5 ай бұрын
For me I have to see it on a shelf in person. I might still buy online but I like to see it up close.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@billable1861That's fair!
@nobuthatsme9201
5 ай бұрын
I differ from ya a little on this take. The number of magazines thrown away in a month in a city like Houston just in dr offices alone outweighs all board games sold in a year worldwide wide. Amazon boxes sent a month worldwide equal the paper output of all board games purchased in a decade. I agree with the sentiment. I am a heavy into conservation. I simply pick my battles differently. Board game hobbyists are not really on my radar. That and when I decide to get rid of a game it gets converted into useful materials that I reuse.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Very fair! Hopefully bringing awareness in even one area, can help improve that hobby and also serve as a reminder for people to look for broader ways they can make an impact in other areas of their life too. Thank you for sharing the perspective about board gaming relative to other industries, like magazine printing!
@Ichiryu000
5 ай бұрын
Most paper products are created from pulp which is a by product of lumber and such. Trees are usually not cut down just for paper.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Very good to know/ keep in mind, esp as compared to other materials!
@bertyoh
5 ай бұрын
Nailed it.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
☝️🏻
@amieamie6268
5 ай бұрын
Smaller boxes, means more shelfspace for more games. I see no problem with smaller boxes! I get that it takes up less space on the store shelfs and can therefor be overlooked, but I often see shelfs made for all the small games in stores and they actually often stand out to me more, because I find the less overwhelming. So I think we've conditioned ourselves to think bigger is better, when in reality we don't actually care that much. Love this video, btw!
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Couldn't agree more! Small boxes also just intrigue me. When I see a small box, my brain immediately wants to solve the mystery of "what's inside?!?!" And thank you! Happy gaming! 😄
@amieamie6268
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki Yes, absolutely! And they are also just so cute! 😍
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@amieamie6268You got me there! 😂
@DicepairGames
5 ай бұрын
I'm no expert either, but... I think it's on the publishers for all this to change. In fact, if all publishers started making appropriately sized boxes, it'd become the new normal. Just look at videogames, boxes used to be gigantic (even for cartridges) and now they're tiny in comparison. I've been praising publishers that have been making smaller boxes lately like Devir (The White Castle) and Thundergryph Games (Darwin's Journey). They even fit sleeved cards! There's another problem with huge nonsensical versions like The Castles of Burgundy Special Edition. Talk about overproduced without an option to get an smaller, all gameplay only version 😵. You're so great, by the way. Keep it up 😅.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Don't even get me started on overproduced KS games… >< Totally agree on Devir's game:box ratios though! And gotta praise the great folks over at ButtonShy, as per usual. ^^ And thank you! ☺️
@frankhaselhorst9368
5 ай бұрын
It seems to me the most eco-friendly practice we can have is not insisting on buying new games, but buying or trading for games already used by others. What's more eco-friendly than that? It is the rare game that can't be found out there for trade on the 2nd-hand market. Yes, more of a challenge and hassle, but...how much are we willing to suffer for the environment? Imagine if a content provider did "unboxing" videos with pre-played games. Now THAT would be the KZitem provider worth watching speak about the environment. Also, I imagine a content provider that passes on to others their games that get little play as a regular habit, rather than just culling their collection when it gets too large and unwieldy, would be sending a very strong message for the environment, no? And lastly, the typical boardgame video made sitting in front of a massive Kallax wall of games sends the OPPOSITE message - "Are you REALLY a boardgame hobbyist of you don't have a wall or two filled with boardgames like me?" (It worked on me 😊). So, in addition to getting angry, give just one example that you are willing to make an actual sacrifice for the environment. Because that big wall of cardboard and plastic staring us in the face is sending a greatly different message. Just some of ideas of mine.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Great points here across the board and thank you for sharing your thoughts/ feedback! I'm not sure how familiar you are with the channel, but on and off screen I am a huge advocate for buying/selling/trading used games. I've made a few videos talking about the process, a few being: tips on getting great deals on games, showing my culling/selling process on IG, coverage of our FLGS's used-game "garage sale, charity auctions with used games, and as I talked about in our last stream, I have an upcoming video dedicated to tips on buying/selling/trading used, which I'm SUPER excited about! I don't overtly shove it in people's face about it being the more eco-friendly option, because a) hopefully actions speak louder than words and b) like I said in the beginning of the video, the hobby isn't exactly the most eco-friendly, no matter where the games are coming from. :x Relatively recently, the channel was also sponsored by Noble Knight, one of the largest retailers dealing in buying/selling/trading used games. I have streamed unboxing orders comprised of used games and I'm super excited that that will absolutely be an on-going stream on the channel, especially now with their support! ^^ As for the wall, there's certainly a range there. While I'm no angel in terms of the number of games I own, for a poor soul like me who dedicates an [insert appropriate adjective here] amount of hobby and social time to board gaming, it may be less offensive in-practice, but that's up to each individual's sensibilities. ^^ A few points on that: a) I have been collecting/ playing games for nearly a decade at this point b) my unplayed games are as close to zero as possible (I always try to play new games within at least a week or two of obtaining them, usually sooner) c) I cull at least twice a year and definitely have gotten better about being honest with which games aren't played (noted: last year's monthly play/ recap videos with the "play every game" challenge) and d) I host multiple times a week and regularly attend events. A lot of our group members don't own a lot of games, so I've been more than happy to "bear the burden" (oh geez, lmao) of having the collection to support our collective game nights and to bring games into the community. :) Wheew, sorry for the wall of text, but I hope I addressed your points and was able to provide some context! Like I said, I'm not claiming to be a beacon of eco-friendliness, but I 100% agree with your points and appreciate you voicing your thoughts, especially when it comes to advocating for buying/selling/trading used games and try my best to find a balance that works for my spot in the hobby. Happy gaming! 🐇
@frankhaselhorst9368
5 ай бұрын
I will definitely look for your videos on culling and selling games, as I could use some helpful advice with getting rid of some of mine. Thank you for your response, and apologies if I came across as too harsh.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@frankhaselhorst9368For sure! I have the video outline and some preliminary practice recordings done, so I'm hoping to get the final video recorded and produced ASAP! ^^ And no worries at all! Like I said, I agree with a lot of your points. They're things I have become more aware of the longer I've been in the hobby and certainly now with sharing some of that journey publicly here on KZitem. At the end of the day, I'd rather be part of a community where we can be critical and keep each other honest versus fronting a false positivity. 😊
@wankertanker1813
5 ай бұрын
Out of the 100 + games I own, I can name at least four off the top of my head. Large box, small amount of game play material. On the other hand, The White Castle has almost no extra space. Many feel they have to leave out four of the five language rules books that came with the game. Not all have to be that tight. Vs. A 13.5in × 13.5 × 2, with a board, thin cardboard play mats, rules, bag o' cubes, a not large deck of cards. Granted, an older game, but...
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Devir really knows how to pack a box, that's for sure. :x Which one is the second game you're referring to?
@wankertanker1813
5 ай бұрын
@tabletoptokki That' for sure! this game "Origins: How We Became Human" by Sierra Madre Games has Sooo much space in its box. I only ever played a five hand solo of it trying to learn the rules one day. From my understanding it's since gotten a streamlined reimplimentation. Had gotten into SMGames for a bit because of science themed games. But some of the "science" they use is ideology. Some is really good. High Frontier's solar system board was just so fascinating and I bought it on that alone. But after picking up a couple of their games I noticed in the footnotes for Origins, the designer praised Ayn Rand as "the greatest philosopher of the 20th century". Ok. People can have different opinions and even play games that try to demonstrate differing belief systems, but I also later noticed in their tHeN ebay store they had some kooky books they were promoting. A long discredited 1994 title "The Bell Curve"...I thought was the book that jumped out at me. This book had tried to justify racial disparities in society as some sort of natural outcome and that some percentage of people were just naturally smart and others less so. Same old, same old nonsense. I discontinued buying games from that company after that. Ok. Probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry. It's what I sometimes do. :/ But..., maybe that wasn't the book I thought they had... "Origins: How We Became Human" was the game with a more volume of air than game play material in the box.
@wankertanker1813
5 ай бұрын
@tabletoptokki You got that right! this game "Origins: How We Became Human" by Sierra Madre Games has Sooo much space in its box. I only ever played a five hand solo of it trying to learn the rules one sunday. From my understanding it's since gotten a streamlined reimplimentation. Had gotten into SMGames for a bit because of science themed games. High Frontier's solar system board was just so fascinating. But after I had a couple of their games I noticed in the rulebook footnotes for Origins the designer praised Ayn Rand as "the greatest philosopher of the 20th century". Ok. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And one doesn't have to agree with a game that might seem to highlight various ideas. But later I noticed in their tHeN ebay store that they were promoting some rather kooky books. The long discredited "The Bell Curve", which tried to claim x percentage of people were just naturally smarter and that's basically how we wound up with society and the world as it is today. Smthg like that. I never read it, and last read about it in Jane Myers' "Dark Money". I stopped buying games from SMGames after that. Probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry. It's what I sometimes do. :/ Origins: How We Became Human was the game with more air volume than game play material in the box.
@wankertanker1813
5 ай бұрын
@tabletoptokki You got that right! this game "Origins: How We Became Human" by Sierra Madre Games has Sooo much space in its box. I only ever played a five hand solo of it trying to learn the rules one sunday. From my understanding it's since gotten a streamlined reimplimentation. Had gotten into SMGames for a bit because of science themed games. High Frontier's solar system board was just so fascinating. But after I had a couple of their games I noticed in the rulebook footnotes for Origins the designer praised Ayn Rand as "the greatest philosopher of the 20th century". Ok. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And one doesn't have to agree with a game that might seem to highlight various ideas. But later I noticed in their tHeN ebay store that they were promoting some rather kooky books. The long discredited "The Bell Curve", which tried to claim x percentage of people were just naturally smarter and that's basically how we wound up with society and the world as it is today. Smthg like that. I never read it, and last read about it in Jane Myers' "Dark Money". I stopped buying games from SMGames after that. But, maybe that wasn't the book I thought I saw quite a while ago. Probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry. It's what I sometimes do. :/ Origins: How We Became Human was the game with more air volume than game play material in the box.
@wankertanker1813
5 ай бұрын
@tabletoptokki "Origins: How We Became Human" by Sierra Madre Games. I don't buy games from this company any more. For other reasons, not the air thing.
@longtimeninerfan1309
5 ай бұрын
Thank you, Tia. Many good points made! I would guess that the large majority of games nowadays are purchased online. So, one would think “shelf space” is much less an issue. It makes one wonder why wouldn’t publishers and local friendly game stores want boxes to have less air, less cardboard, less warehouse space needed, less shipping expense, etc.? I suppose gamers like the extra space inside the original game box to provide room for future expansions and sleeving of cards. I have read complaints from “ sleevers” when they rate and comment on games.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Yes to the online sales, and I totally agree about getting frustrated on the other side of the spectrum as well. I contemplated putting in a section about custom inserts that don't even house their components properly and end up usually getting thrown out, but I decided to leave that for a further conversation to try to keep the video focused. Just seems like a mess every which way. :c
@morgaknightgames
5 ай бұрын
I think we as consumers tend to become more aware of these issues the longer we are in the hobby. My first two years I absolutely went hard into the big miniature campaigns, but I'm barely looking at or backing any of those anymore because I feel such guilt about the waste I'm generating. I really appreciate the shift to standee core boxes (I took that edition for Oathsworn) in recent years, and I love that meeples are making a comeback. I recently bought a Lenovo laptop for work and was pleasantly surprised that it was 100% packaged with paper/cardboard materials, so other industries are starting to move in that direction as well. Every bit helps.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That's an interesting point about the correlation with how long you've been in the hobby! I think the longer we're in the hobby, the more we look at publishers/ games outside of the overproduced big-box items that tend to make headlines. It's been super rewarding for me personally, both in supporting more eco-friendly publishers and in terms of exploring all of the vast innovation in board game designs! ^^
@morgaknightgames
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki Exactly. I've drifted more towards smaller impact, crunchy Euro games and indi projects I love over time, which is fascinating looking back. Still have some larger mini filled games currently delivering though given the crowdfunding delay. 😅 To be honest, having two big box games deliver the same week last fall really made me re-evaluate what I was supporting.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@morgaknightgamesThat's a great wake up call, for sure! The only big-box minis game I've backed was Dark Souls, and tbh that was for my love of the art & the IP over being a board game-focused purchase. I have enjoyed playing the game too though, to be fair. :x
@alwynsmit6626
5 ай бұрын
I agree 100% with your points, I also like smaller packaged board games but I think board game's publishers aren't the worst offenders. Did any of these publisher create more waste/ (being worse for the environment) then lets say 100 cars. I think in the grand schema of things they aren't so bad. Not great, would be better if they were more eco friendly but not the worst? Or maybe I am just crazy.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
You're absolutely in the right here. There are definitely industries that are far worse for the environment. I just feel like there are some big steps and some very easy/ obvious ones that could be taken to minimize the negative footprint board gaming has as a whole. Certainly can't hurt to try, right? ^^
@PatrickPawletko
5 ай бұрын
I'd argue that the overconsumption of games - far more than anyone could reasonably play on a regular basis - is far less environmentally friendly than the amount of cardboard or cardstock used in any one game. The hobby should rather move towards a culture of REDUCING the number of games that each person owns, REUSING games by sharing between multiple households or borrowing from a local library and then RECYCLING by using sustainably sourced materials and managing end-of-life waste responsibly. Case in point: why must every board game YT channel have a glorified wall of hundreds of games in the background? Doesn't it promote overconsumption?
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Not untrue and a valid criticism/ suggestion! Like I said, board gaming by its very nature is not an eco-friendly hobby. None of us are angels here. People are invested and get enjoyment out of the hobby for a variety of reasons. On one end of the spectrum, there are people who enjoy playing games and on the other, people who enjoy collecting them. Knowing that I do have a relatively large collection, I certainly am in the realm of hobbyists your comment is addressing. For me, I buy used games when I can, keep my shelf of shame to zero (or close to it when new games arrive), regularly cull/ sell games that aren't getting played, and do spend a considerable amount of time playing games with a wide-range of people, most of whom own few or zero games themselves. Having a large collection allows me to learn more about board gaming, have a better reference for creating content, and be a good host while also getting the personal satisfaction out of playing and collecting games. It's absolutely true that I, or many other people, could have a smaller collections, but every person needs to find a balance that works for them. ^^
@PatrickPawletko
5 ай бұрын
These are very valid points and of course everyone has the right to make decisions that best suit their preferred lifestyle, but my comment was rather focusing on the topic of pure sustainability. If we (as a species) really want to avoid imminent climate disaster, it requires real and extreme sacrifice by each and every individual (which, realistically, simply won't happen) and systemic change brought on by politicians and regulatory authorities who can decarbonize our civic infrastructure. In the grand scheme of things, reducing the use of plastic or a smidge too much cardboard in board game packaging does very little for the environment. Sure, it doesn't hurt anything, and it still helps to some marginal degree, but it is not going to reverse climate change in any real way. It is what researchers would call a "low impact, high-singalling" effort - i.e. it makes us feel good about our choices, but its benefits are offset by much more influential factors like personal wealth. I have always found this Vox article to be an approachable entry point to this area of research: www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/12/1/16718844/green-consumers-climate-change
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@PatrickPawletkoThank you for the extra context and link! I don't have any illusions about one publisher, or even one hobby's practices changing the whole course of things, but here we are. Thank you again for taking the time to delve into this deeper!
@AndrewWatsonChangingWay
5 ай бұрын
Going gaming this evening, taking The White Castle and The Red Cathedral. Each is a lot of game in smallish box. Both fit in my backpack, leaving room for a few card games.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Fair play! I am seriously impressed with how tightly The White Castle fits into the box. Have a great game night! ^^
@stephens2401
5 ай бұрын
all cards have a plastic core sandwiched in the middle of the card stock. Its also coated with more plastic so the print doesn't rub off when you handle them. Honestly the card board insert and extra box size isn't really doing much more damage to the environment as you'd think. Maybe the issue is any board/card game claiming to be ECO friendly to begin with.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Was not aware of the plastic used in card stock! And yes, it definitely invites contemplation and criticism when companies make bold claims about their initiatives and intentions.
@stephens2401
5 ай бұрын
unfortunately plastic is necessary to give cards that snappy feeling when bent. There is an alternative to plastic core cards but it's not easy to accomplish as it depends on a very selective card stock and not very common. Might even be more expensive to produce. I do think slapping Eco friendly claims just because it fits the theme of the game feels a bit icky.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@stephens2401Very fair and from my perspective as a consumer, at least the added plastic in the cards is an improvement for the product in terms of durability and enjoyment of playing the game itself, whereas a bunch of cardboard buffing out the box... doesn't. :c And preach! It's hard to tell where companies heads are at these days with regard to actually wanting to have a positive impact versus doing things for "marketing." I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's definitely worth keeping an eye on.
@stephens2401
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki the best example for me is this one very prominent publisher had a mega hit with a nature themed game. They later changed many of the plastic storage and components of the original copy to wood and cardboard materials claiming a more Eco-friendly stance. Despite all that, their recent releases still include plastic inserts. one game in particular had a box and plastic insert big enough for future expansions.😐
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@stephens2401That's super sad to hear... 😞
@CarbonatedTurtle
5 ай бұрын
I think for the most part it comes down to cheaper and fewer game components means a cheaper and less profitable game.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
That's definitely where the consumer mindset comes in! For me, though it's clearly not how a majority of people in the hobby approach games currently, I appreciate games that do more with less components and steer clear of games that are too excessive in terms of components, size, expansions, etc. There have even been games I'd enjoyed as a base game and ended up selling because the excessive amounts of things that kept coming out turned me off from wanting to play them. Forest Shuffle was an "okay" game for me when I played it on BGA, but after seeing how it was packaged, it was an easy one to throw on the cull pile. >
@billable1861
5 ай бұрын
1. I agree that most plastic packaging is completely unnecessary it’s just cheap. On a positive note 2. There is some research being done on the science behind plastic eating bugs. All hope is not lost for this earth.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Omg yes, bring on the bugs! ...and what a cool concept for a board game that would be too! 🤭
@szegediadam8793
5 ай бұрын
How printing works: there's a fix amount of card that can fit on a paper, because the printing paper has a fix size. (Usualy around 108 standard card can fit on a paper) If they have place for extra cards, the cheapest and most Eco friendly if they add there extra cards, rather than sheet of papers, because after they cut up those papers they need to put the cards from there into the same box, when they pack it up, because it creates less chance of misspacking cards.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Very fair! Would have loved to have seen those cards be used for something more player-friendly, like reference cards with turn order and iconography. They could even have still printed the specific card references and made that happen if the card references were double-sided! :)
@lilianempls
5 ай бұрын
I was so pleased with Evergreen. Slim elegant box with built in storage and not a single piece of plastic.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Absolutely agree! The components for that game are elegant, functional, and feel "deluxe" without going overboard. 🌲
@jtsiren1676
5 ай бұрын
Good video, great topic. It's good to hear that Japan is better about space being at a premium, I hope we can learn a few things from them as the hobby moves forward. I do like my sleeves, though. So, many things hopefully will evolve over time.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Absolutely! While they are generally great about saving space/ resources with board games, I do also know they are prime suspects when it comes to plastic, especially with food packaging, so I guess there's a lot for all of us to learn across the board. >< Definitely would love to see where the future of sleeving goes and what kinds of changes can be made to make that process more eco-friendly! ^^
@deemich1815
5 ай бұрын
really important topic. not enough people bring it up. good coverage 👍 publishers definitely need to be more aware of packaging.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Absolutely! And hopefully consumers being more conscientious about what practices they support with incetivise publishers to reevaluate their choices with packaging. :x
@deemich1815
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki definitely!
@warselu
5 ай бұрын
I have the same issue with Furnace. Love the game, but my god, that box and insert made to fill out the space is annoying and it also has some cardboard player pieces which, sure they look nice, but are not needed as well as an extra large first player marker...
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Ah, definitely! The insert is not great... and it's plastic at that. The Furnace insert does sufficiently house the expansion though, which I guess is more than one could say for Forest Shuffle or some other games. :/
@TH-wq2ge
5 ай бұрын
Cool comment. Personally I like the board. Could have lived without it, but would have loved it best if they had made the box the size of the board. Then it would have been a small box big game instead of a medium size mid-size game. Would still be large enough to house future expansions. Explainer cards are weird and useless, but totally a consequence of using the paper that would have been thrown away otherwise. Could have been solved differently with better overall planing. Let’s see what they do next. Generally agree, small boxes is the way to go.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Very fair on the personal preference for having the board! I think I ideally would have liked to have seen the extra cards printed double sided for the references (since they printed on both front and back anyway) with the others being used for a board, player reference cards with turn order/ iconography, or even a mini-expansion. So many options... it's just baffling how all these little things came together. Keeping my eyes peeled for what's next, for sure!
@TH-wq2ge
5 ай бұрын
Yes, player reference cards would have been a great idea for this game.
@johnricker7064
5 ай бұрын
Good topic and nice job! Sounds like a Megaphone opportunity?? Or better better Button TIA 2.0 (52 cards or less in a tuck box
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Thanks, John! And yeah, thank goodness for ButtonShy and all of the amazing designers doing great work in the microgaming community! 🎉
@kosterix123
5 ай бұрын
Good points. Call it eco for marketing purposes only.
@kosterix123
5 ай бұрын
Also those exit games... one time use plastic cards. Told my gf I don’t want them anymore, stop buying them.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Yeah, it certainly is questionable based on a first glance to say the least. :x
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Yeah, not a big fan of the EXIT series. Plenty of other escape-style games that aren't one-time-use. >
@kosterix123
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki The boxes are great to keep small games in (pnp), but it's such a shame plastic components have to be thrown away.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@kosterix123Also agree here. >
@The8OJ4N
5 ай бұрын
Wait till you buy one of those Arkham Horror LCG boxes. Astronauts can use them as an emergency air supply. 😆
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Oh god, please no. At least the newer editions are a bit smaller than the 12x12 boxes, right? 😭
@mikeforner7797
5 ай бұрын
I hate those tabs...leaving residue to get on other boxes......I'm in NO way eco friendly, but I don't like big boxes for the sake of box size.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Some of the tabs are worse than others, for sure. I will say that the ones on Forest Shuffle didn't leave any residue and were fairly easy to remove; more paper-based instead of the clear plastic ones. And same! Being that I'm involved in a directly in a hobby that isn't eco-friendly by nature, I can't champion that I'm a perfect specimen of eco-friendliness, but there's a level of awareness and steps that can be taken to at least minimize the impact, ESPECIALLY when it's just for the sake of driving sales, etc. >
@akmalfikri
5 ай бұрын
But, paper is a sustainable resource. 🤔
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
The process of creating paper products and recycling paper still uses a lot of resources in the process and again, the more paper, the more other things cost, like shipping!
@StKnightis64
5 ай бұрын
Oof. Guilty as charged. Currently staring at my backbreaking Special Edition copy of Castles of Burgundy with the oh so well thought out (kinda) organizer trays. We are a huge consumer based group as Americans. We love our upgraded tokens made of anything from metal to tusk (ok, not recently). It’s going to take a lot of effort, but hey, it needs to start somewhere. Meanwhile, hand me my whaler harpoon and dice, I think it’s my turn.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Yeah... we're all kinda in the same boat here. No one in this hobby can claim to have clean hands.🙈 I do often steer clear of larger box games with "deluxe" components though. ButtonShy con was such an amazing experience, because everyone had their little ButtonShy and Oink game bags with 100s of tiny little games played throughout the weekend. Gives me hope. 🙏🏻
@StKnightis64
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki Your hearts in the right place.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@StKnightis64At Shycon next year?!?! Hopefully, if my heart can make it out to Denver! 😉
@StKnightis64
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki There ya go!
@darbyl3872
5 ай бұрын
Extra air in a box or bag has never bothered me. I hate when a box just barely holds everything, like a puzzle. Then forget about sleeving the cards. They'll just be scratched and bent within a year.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Definitely frustrating on both sides. Pulled from another response: "I contemplated putting in a section about custom inserts that don't even house their components properly and end up usually getting thrown out, but I decided to leave that for a further conversation to try to keep the video focused. Just seems like a mess every which way." Great Western Trail 2nd edition, I'm looking at you.
@billable1861
5 ай бұрын
Yeah or it was so compact to begin with you can never put it back inside without damaging it.
@darbyl3872
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki I've gotten used to throwing inserts away, to make room for sleeved cards, or just make it easier to pack up before the FLGS turns off the lights at night. It is wasteful, including the Ikea ziplock bags I use, but at least I don't have to find a bigger box.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@darbyl3872 I always feel bad when I have to throw away an insert, but it's just not feasible to keep them when so many are so dysfunctional. >
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@billable1861Yeah... very unfortunate that not even the cards fit in the designated slot WITHOUT sleeves. >
@DavidMcElroy21
5 ай бұрын
My most frustrating experience was with Daybreak by CMYK. The way they designed the box was so poor that is did not survive shipping at all. I have some crazy pictures of what it looked like in the box. The make matters worse they did not respond to my request to replace the game. I will never play it due to the shape it is in and I cannot give it away with the sape it is in. Most of the corners ripped out and the tuck boxes were destroyed. There has to be a balance becouse some of these decisions are going to result in more ruturns which has an even larger environmental impact.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Omg that's terrible to hear and I'm super sorry that it happened and especially that they responded the way that they did. :/ There's certainly a balance between making sure games are actually playable and the resources used to make them. I don't envy the people who have to figure out the logistics on all of that, but I hope that on both sides of the spectrum things can continue to improve.
@alxhague
5 ай бұрын
Publisher here: just wanted to note in case you missed it that we’ve offered to replace any damaged boxes-see the BackerKit updates for info, where there’s a survey you can fill out. Maybe those went to spam or you unsubscribed?
@user-mf1cu3tn7s
5 ай бұрын
The craziest one I had was moon rakers Titan edition. I was excited to back it and receive it but when I opened the box…the content together with the expansions just 1/10 of the spaces there. I was like…what!? I paid $200 with this ks edition Titan box that was said to create the best storage (or better) experience and you ended up giving me this crap that takes up my shelf space with empty spaces in the box!? The insert was also terrible.. they used an insert same to imperium classics and honestly do you guys have no idea how to make inserts for cards? Especially when you are charging on creating the insert. I was so disappointed but yet I don’t see many talking about it.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Whoa, I had no idea! That's so egregious... especially charging for specific "custom" packaging. Yikes. >
@user-mf1cu3tn7s
5 ай бұрын
@@tabletoptokki I was so disappointed and angry on the same hand. When I saw your video I specifically log on to comment. This just has to stop. Its crazy.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
@@user-mf1cu3tn7sI'm right there with you. It's wild to me that this kind of thing is still happening so frequently when there are so many companies/titles being released and so much competition. You'd think there would be a bit of a higher standard for that sort of thing by now, but geez...>
@The.FrozenGamer
5 ай бұрын
The reference cards are bad, A) for trying to be more eco-resourceful B) for being player friendly. I wonder if they looked into using cardboard manufactured from recycled materials for all the extra cardboard in the game that didn’t need to be there in the first place? I hope so. At first I was like, that main insert does use extra cardboard to create the three holes, but to have a designated place for cards in the insert is so awesome for the game owner…but then you showed the false bottom and my mouth dropped. 😮. That is ridiculously bad, especially for a “green” game line.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Totally agree on both points! Even if I didn't agree with it personally, I could at least understand a publisher's reasoning for using extra resources to make a choice that would increase the quality of the game/ gameplay overall... but nope. Here we have the opposite. 🫤 Using recycled cardboard would be a step-up, but it still wastes so many resources, especially with the false bottom, like you said. 😔
@Bob_Co
5 ай бұрын
To your point of "they tried to be eco here, but why not there" ....I see all of the discussed criticisms as moot while manufacturing remains overwhelmingly in China.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Would love to learn/hear more about the implications of that. As I said, I'm far from an expert and there are a /lot/ of things I am probably not even aware of as a mere consumer in the hobby!
@djmurp2
5 ай бұрын
Preach 🙌 thank you 🙏🏻
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
Definitely, just hope things continue to move in a positive direction as whole. 💚
@mz-pd5hw
5 ай бұрын
I think one must be careful with this statements, because what you're criticizing is apparent to me is the same thing you're falling victim of. As you mentioned you don't know much about it, in my experience how much one knows about something says a lot of how much one cares about it. Not knowing about a topic should dissuade to complain about it, specially when naming names and pointing fingers. I could argue that you are polluting a lot more than necessary by making videos instead of blogging, all the extra resources necessary to store, manage and stream video instead of a simple text are not small, you could even make a broad estimate by checking how many hours of video have you uploaded and how many views and you'll see is not insignificant, far from it. Is easy to blame others to feel good about yourself without any effort, not even some research on the topic before uploading a video. And I agree that many companies claim to be "eco friendly" without taking any real actions, but to point fingers we need to know what we are talking about or all we're doing is feeding a culture of ignorant complaining that has worsen the current situation.
@tabletoptokki
5 ай бұрын
I hear your criticisms and those are definitely things to be conscientious about! As stated, the board gaming hobby (and content creation, for that matter) are not by nature eco-friendly options. One point that does come to mind in response to your statements would be that creating a video versus a text-based post are two vastly different mediums, end products, and experiences for the audience. Here, I'm not saying game publishers should change their business to express their creative ideas in a totally different medium, but rather that they could hopefully examine the practices they're using, especially if they are making bold claims about their intent and impact. :) As far as pointing fingers go, I do say outright that it's no one party's fault and that we as consumers play a part in the decisions that companies make. I also agree that baseless complaints do little to help anyone in any circumstance. By the same token, I don't feel it's uncalled for to offer my experience as a consumer of a product and posit questions that could help shed light on a topic that is brought to the forefront by a company. And, I certainly wouldn't do so without offering some ideas about how things could be improved, as shown in the video. All in all, appreciate your thoughts and feedback!
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