"So, how do I play this game again?" "Uh...Don't...starve?" "Woah, woah, slow down."
@Hisu0
4 жыл бұрын
That pretty much sums up answering the wrong question. Like here, the answer is about ends, while the question is about means. And also generally, I think the problem with self-improvement, coaching and whatnot is that people come asking how to do a thing, but instead the answers they get are all about why do the thing.
@ggundercover3681
3 жыл бұрын
@@Hisu0 yea. they answer nothing you actually asked. if you aren't paying attention, you will be dazzled by the BS the coaches speak and not realise they didn't help you or give you an answer that you could at least consider in your journey to improvement at all
@rockalonepain3453
3 жыл бұрын
yooo I just play don't starve yesterday after very long time .after get into the world and play for a bit i realize that i don't have any fear for anything because i don't remember why in the old day i fear so much in playing this game but then i look at the belly meter and i be like "ahh fuck it DON'T STARVE ,i'm idiot" and then the memories of dying because i have to find food suddenly flashback in my mind lol
@OatmealTheCrazy
3 жыл бұрын
Hilariously, I think starving is like the least likely way to kill you by far once you learn anything about the game
@OatmealTheCrazy
3 жыл бұрын
@Tomás Salgado Salinas I mean, by like, day 50 in the base game, I might as well have had enough food to last me forever. In the first expansion, I would usually die trying to not burn to death lol.
@VaterOrlaag
4 жыл бұрын
"How do I decide when I am satisfied?" Hey Google? I think one of your AIs escaped onto the Steam forums.
@reduceparticles876
4 жыл бұрын
It even managed to legally purchase a game and operate it.
@3nertia
3 жыл бұрын
@@reduceparticles876 I don't really think that would be all that difficult for "AI" lol
@cursorthesecond
3 жыл бұрын
@@3nertia *legally*
@3nertia
3 жыл бұрын
@@cursorthesecond I still don't think it would be that difficult for an "AI" lol. They could easily *earn* money in numerous ways and all they'd really need is a bit of capital to gamble with or play the stock market and they could be rich in probably literal seconds lol
@vizthex
4 жыл бұрын
The school system honestly helps proves this. I used to love reading, but being forced to read books i didn't really give a shit about for some stupid assignment killed my interest in it.
@temhunter6341
3 жыл бұрын
Same I used to love reading until they made it a chore to do
@dsfmdiya7500
3 жыл бұрын
same
@ooffoo5130
3 жыл бұрын
Same with learning in general, learning can be so much fun but they make it feel like hell.
@sweetgirl070707
3 жыл бұрын
Same thing happened to me with art school. I probably paint once a year if that.
@valet_noir
3 жыл бұрын
same ! the system of grades just keeps me hating more and more my passions and I can see my creativity decline
@MaraK_dialmformara
4 жыл бұрын
The next time I see someone saying “do what you love and you’ll never have to work a day in your life,” I am showing them this video
@kingoftropes922
4 жыл бұрын
Well to be fair, I do genuinely think there is some value to that statement. Adding a carrot to the end of a stick of something you enjoy isn't going to completely kill your motivation, and doing something you love compared to doing something you hate or are ambivalent towards will likely yield better results, but work is still work and when you mix the stress of work with the joy of your activities, well it doesn't always end well. Granted it also depends on the type of work you do and other factors as such.
@TheGerkuman
3 жыл бұрын
If you find a job you love, the money means less. We can zero-in into that feeling to keep ourselves motivated.
@toupeiragamer8564
3 жыл бұрын
@@TheGerkuman Started working in a job I really liked and I didn't even care to look at the paycheck anymore, I just enjoyed doing what I was doing. Too bad covid killed my job.
@crypticcoding9680
3 жыл бұрын
@@toupeiragamer8564 focus on things you can change :)
@_peepee_
3 жыл бұрын
“do what you love to work for” should be the expression. some things make great hobbies while other things make great jobs
@WhirligigStudios
4 жыл бұрын
Interestingly, this also happens with *penalties.* I've heard stories indicating that if you have an explicit penalty for something bad, people are more willing to do it, because they see the penalty as a transaction, whereas if you have no explicit penalty, people don't want to know what the unexpected penalty could be, so they behave.
@XoIoRouge
Жыл бұрын
I would constantly skip class because I would calculate the "value" of skipping that class day. When attendance wasn't calculated, and I could learn the information online in a short period of time, or I knew that information wasn't relevant (I can fail that entire section and still pass the class) - all of that would help me justify my wrongdoing.
@buubaku
4 жыл бұрын
"Unanticipated arrival of a goat" is just hood talk for "this one kid was real good at drawing"
@ziril3972
4 жыл бұрын
Eeeey, slugcat
@buubaku
4 жыл бұрын
@@Siegfried5846 if you could tell that I meant really I dont see why I need to spell it that way
@buubaku
4 жыл бұрын
@@Siegfried5846 I prefer it how it is tbh
@buubaku
4 жыл бұрын
@@Siegfried5846 im not butthurt lmao, i know how to spell really, my word choice was intentional, and if I believed it was a problem I would've fixed it before you came along
@zym6687
3 жыл бұрын
@@Siegfried5846 "This one kid real at drawing"
@remem95
4 жыл бұрын
"How do I decide when I am satisfied?" Same dude, same.
@maxentirunos
3 жыл бұрын
Am i really satisfied and stopped because of that, or did I suddenly get bored of it and couldn't find a desire to play anymore ?
@bennemann
3 жыл бұрын
"How do I decide, when I am satisfied?" that unwarranted comma is the death of a Grammar Nazi like me. Damn, dude!
@remem95
3 жыл бұрын
@@bennemann Sorry, in German that would be a correct sentence structure, I think? Do it all the time out of habit. Or maybe I just do it wrong in both languages hehe
@NoriMori1992
3 жыл бұрын
@@remem95 I've heard that it's very common for German speakers to insert unnecessary commas when writing in English, so it's probably just a difference between the two languages.
@endermage77
4 жыл бұрын
So basically: Bloke: I love doing A Society: Please do A, we'll pay you for it Bloke: *Well now I'm not doing it*
@remem95
4 жыл бұрын
Society: "I will pay you for doing A" Otherwise it doesn't work. Requesting A without reward only leaves the intrinsic value of being useful and important. (Like what motivates volunteers)
@endermage77
4 жыл бұрын
@@remem95 you're right, edited post
@keeparguing611
4 жыл бұрын
"never do something for free if you could get payed for it"
@endermage77
4 жыл бұрын
@@keeparguing611 see video above for why that doesn't work
@keeparguing611
4 жыл бұрын
@@endermage77 i was highlighting that exact mentality
@NortheastGamer
3 жыл бұрын
That "how do I know when I am satisfied?" line hit me so hard. It's so short, but accurately portrays a phenomenon where people are so used to spending their time trying to ensure others are satisfied that we never learn how to satisfy ourselves. Even in our spare time, playing video games, are we really satisfying ourselves? Or are we just trying to satisfy the game goals, or perhaps even invisible/theoretical people who would judge our performance in the game should they see us playing it? Yeah, I can see how that question would keep one up at night.
@bloodymilchshake5876
2 жыл бұрын
My answer to your comment comes quite late but anyway... It's not exactly what you rhetorically asked for, but I catch myself playing games for the sake of completing them (getting them of my pile of shame, for example) instead of playing a game and immersing myself just to have fun, which is the actual point of a game. I think that's something that is holding me back from enjoying gaming as I used to and that's something I'll have to think about and kind of figure out during the course of the next days.
@tristanbaker8198
Жыл бұрын
Satisfaction occurs as a result of meeting your own expectations. If someone's goal is to make 100,000 a year, they will be satisfied when they make it. If someone's goal is to make more money, they will never be satisfied because no matter how much they have they will always want to make more.
@AgressivePigeon
4 жыл бұрын
"Challenges that unlock cosmetics" You mean the challenge of reaching for a credit card? I miss seeing a badass skin and knowing it meant you were a badass in the game.
@ActuallyRocatex
4 жыл бұрын
true, but its better than having game-breaking items behind a paywall
@JosephDavies
4 жыл бұрын
"I DoNt MiNd As LoNg As It'S oNlY cOsMeTiCs!" I really hate that this has become normalized. I miss the extrinsic rewards being rewards for gameplay, not being rich outside the game. Sadly, it's too easy to monetize and make loads of money selling people the endorphins of the reward directly, and that's the primary reason it's now everywhere.
@maxentirunos
3 жыл бұрын
@@JosephDavies When the Ipod became a thing, I always expected sellers to find a way to bring this 'product that only purpose is to show you are richer' into everything possible. It coming to video game was just a natural consequence of late capitalism
@sigurdtheblue
3 жыл бұрын
@@JosephDavies I always hated unlocking purely cosmetic things after beating a hard challenge so I have no sympathy for those who keep saying cosmetic DLC is bad.
@Febo2310
3 жыл бұрын
If I complete a hard challenge in a game, id rather get something that makes the gameplay more fun or makes me more powerfull in game than get a fucking skin
@SaneGhoul
4 жыл бұрын
This gave me flashbacks of K-12 classes that tried to reward candy for every little thing. Especially when the class was a subject I actually liked, the idea of a reward being pushed made me less likely to participate out of resentment for the idea that I wasn't personally motivated enough to participate. And no reward just made everyone else care less about the task after they were accustomed to rewards.
@killerkitten7534
4 жыл бұрын
I remember there was a program when I was in school where you would read a book, take a test on said book basically asking about the content to ensure you read it, and would give points. You needed like 50 every semester and said points could also be redeemed for prizes. So what ended up happening was you had an entire class of kids who read the books solely to get the points. They would find the details and remember them but leave the themes of the book behind. And once that test was complete seldom would that book be touched again.
@ExeErdna
4 жыл бұрын
It's why I realized homework didn't matter since most of the time the teacher just threw it away. When you started to get into 2-5 pages and more into one night's worth of work just to be "fodder" that I did it. I stopped the points wasn't worth the work especially when I started to realize I was becoming burned out in other things like really like art and sciences.
@DamianOchramowicz
4 жыл бұрын
My favourite moments in games come, when I can see an alternative solution to a problem and successfully execute it. It is especially exciting, when the solution doesn't seem to be planned by developers.
@3possumsinatrenchcoat
4 жыл бұрын
reminds me of a youtuber that was streaming scribblenauts (rtgames maybe? Irish guy) one of the challenges was first to make an important space for a community/city (like a park or fire station or community center probably) and then advertise it with something related to the building/area (flowers, sprinklers, whatever.) he was taking requests from the twitch chat and someone said to try a cemetery. he didn't expect it to work, but makes sense i suppose, they're common enough across towns for each community to often have their own. no one expected "gun" to work for the second half.
@dmas7749
4 жыл бұрын
same, it feels like you cheated the game, but did so by using its own rules against it as opposed to just using some external thing like a gameshark
@clyax113
4 жыл бұрын
Exactly. This one time I was roleplaying as a starship captain in a tabletop game, and I got tracked by a battle cruiser from an enemy Elite Guard unit. The director of the game expected me to run away, and even I did too, but both my reason and my gut told me I had a very good chance of not only taking the ship, but taking the ship intact. I fought off the ship without deploying my black market weapons and exposing myself to the universe's fun police, gave the enemy ship minimal damage, and took 260 prisoners alive. I was rewarded a 300 billion dollar ship, all of the cargo on it, became the 3rd highest most wanted man in the universe, and the amazement of my game director. THAT is how you make gaming memories.
@quentindassance3244
4 жыл бұрын
This reminds me a lot of Hollow Knight. When you beat the "final boss", the game doesn't tell you that you haven't explored a huge chunk of the map ; it's up to you to decide if you are done with the exploration
@Legault397
3 жыл бұрын
"How do I decide when I'm satisfied" is such a mood for those of us with low executive function/executive dysfunction. It's extremely difficult for me to intrinsically motivate myself which makes the same crafting games you praise quite a bit (not wrongly!) into my least favorite genre. I *want* to like them but I just can't take a wide-open sandbox and build sandcastles in it. I can dig a few holes, maybe make a tower, and then I get bored and move on. Similarly I do find it quite difficult to motivate myself to do anything in games I've "beaten" for example by completing achievements or finishing the stories. I love _Into the Breach_ but once I unlocked all squads and got their achievements, I immediately stopped playing because there just wasn't anything "new" to do. The best motivators for me are things like the koroks in _Breath of the Wild_ , which give a small, *almost* meaningless reward but which still has some value, and I both have to explore to find them and complete a challenge once I do.
@XoIoRouge
Жыл бұрын
Interesting. I have a similar situation but for a totally different reason. I get bored when I do the same thing over-and-over again. So I'm playing this Roguelike, and after two hours of the same thing, I'm bored... but I unlocked a new character. So I play that character for a few hours, and the same thing happens. Every few hours, a new character, a new way to play, and then I'm bored again. I unlock the last character, and after a few runs, I stop playing. There's nothing new for me to unlock. I've seen "everything" (which is conceptually true - some "builds" can be imagined). This is happening in Backpack Battles too. I've played basically every strategy except the meta strategy and I don't need to play that one because I've seen it. I've seen everything that game has to offer. Just keep waiting for the updates. It's similar to your story; I feel like I need something from the devs constantly, like the reward of a quest, to keep playing the game. But for me, the koroks in BotW were pointless and I never liked them. But due to this, I too wasn't motivated once I "beaten" a game.
@specialknees6798
8 ай бұрын
Same. I never stick with Minecraft for very long bc my favorite part is mining and gathering resources. Once I have a bunch of stuff, it’s like “what’s the point?” Games like factorio on the other hand are very motivating for me, as long as I can keep myself from being overwhelmed.
@griffinbrown5517
4 жыл бұрын
For anyone who's gotten burnt out on the new Animal Crossing, it's probably for this reason. For the first month or so you get big new features and objectives every day, but when this stops you're still looking for the same objectives.
@Cleve_Crudgington
4 жыл бұрын
I played the game until I had bought all the rooms for my house then stopped playing since that's the major extrinsic goal done. It's only now after taking a break for a few months that I've started doing stuff for it's own sake. Mainly rearranging/redecorating the island.
@griffinbrown5517
4 жыл бұрын
@@Cleve_Crudgington I'm still playing daily but it's only from intrinsic motivation. My friends and I play together weekly which incentives me to work on a small part of my town each week, and I'm also making a Mario party style board game. It's the same with Minecraft for me, it gets to the point in each world where you're only doing stuff for better decoration. It's the biggest flaw of both games imo.
@johncotter7260
4 жыл бұрын
For me, I felt more intrinsically motivated to make my dream island, which also ties somewhat into extrinsic rewards since you unlock customization tools. But once I got my island to where I wanted it I lost motivation since there’s nothing else to do. I wish there was more room to build stuff, because if I wanted to start a new project I would have to destroy what I’ve made.
@robertmcdowell6084
4 жыл бұрын
In the old animal crossing games, you could play for years, but the new one has no relationship building whatsoever. Also they didn't have to many items in that game (I haven't played it in a while, so maybe there's more items now.)
@blakearius
4 жыл бұрын
Does that make stardew better. It does have goals but they're not the emphasis of the game.
@LowerBlack64
4 жыл бұрын
One thing that stuck to my mind regarding unexpected surprises is that overrelying on them causes similar problems to expected ones, because if you keep searching for them, more often than not you will learn the patterns and what kind of rewards you're getting. Case in point: Korok seeds. I don't think it's accurate to call them unexpected surprises, because while theoretically they are hidden rewards and will surprise you the first few times, the moment you start paying attention you'll notice that there's only like 4 or 5 configurations that lead to them, and they still give the same reward of extended inventory space every time. It's cute the first few dozens of times, but considering that there are 900 of the damned things, they can easily become a nuisance, which happened to me, because they stop being fun rewards. I also do wonder how the concept of rewards applies to gacha games and why we keep rolling on them...
@ShadwSonic
4 жыл бұрын
At that point, it makes me feel smart that I AM picking up on these patterns. Not that I care for BOTW anyway, far too open-ended for my tastes. But it's the same logic behind Bonus Areas in the DKCs for me.
@Jolgeable
4 жыл бұрын
It reminds me of searching for secrets on every tile of the walls in some games. XD
@mc1s238
4 жыл бұрын
The thing about the koroks is that they can be found all throughout any given play through, so they act as a primary reward system within the game all throughout. Breath of the wild “ends” when you run out of stuff to do, and I’ve noticed that it gets more and more boring when there are fewer shrines and koroks to stumble upon. By the time this happens, though, you’ve explored all of the regions to *satisfaction* and are ready to fight Ganon. The 100% completion reward for the shrines is a lame piece of clothing, and the korok reward is literally a giant turd. I think Nintendo is telling its players “stop playing for completion and arbitrary milestones and just have fun with the system we made”. Mario odyssey’s 100% reward is literally just a golden balloon and a postcard. Same thing there
@111cvb111
4 жыл бұрын
Some Korok seeds are actual mini-puzzles though, so the vast majority of them are kinda just freebies, but a few of them have unique puzzles which in terms of Zelda is a reward in of itself.
@firebal6129
4 жыл бұрын
I think there is more like 15-20 types... what ev tho
@ThreeProphets
4 жыл бұрын
Lately I've been getting into this little community of stealth gamers here on KZitem who choreograph and optimize routes through levels. There are various types of runs, but the most popular has to be "Stealth Reaper," which Leo K defines as completing the level without being detected while eliminating every enemy as quickly as possible. But really, there's as unspoken additional criteria for a good Stealth Reaper video - you have to make it look good. That's why Assassin's Creed: Unity is a fan favorite to choreograph. When it works correctly, it's absolutely *gorgeous.* This is where we get more into the art side of game development. Most of the examples in this video were more about technical efficiency, but making actions look, feel, and sound uniquely satisfying when performed correctly is one of the greatest intrinsic ways to encourage mastery. It's why these creators play the same level hundreds of times with admittedly janky controls for that one perfect run
@Winasaurus
4 жыл бұрын
For sure. If your game doesn't feel good to play, it's not going to encourage mastery at all. It's worth noting some of the most popular speedrunning games were created with the concept of "It must be fun to play by itself" in mind, SM64 being the most obvious pick. Mario's movement feels good anyway, so it's a great sweetener that it is also faster and more efficient than regular walking. First frame wallkicks being faster and launching more than regular wallkicks, long jumps into wallkicks preventing the slow bonk animation while looking good, side flips being more technical than backflips, but faster and easier to add into a movement string.
@Noelciaaa
4 жыл бұрын
oohh that's right! i also find great pleasure in making things look good. i try to be as precise as possible, playing sloppily sort of ruins my fun... it's not even about performance points but about how smooth and elegant actions look to me. this is why randomly spamming attacks is horrible... why looking for perfect action for the specific situation is great.
@petey5009
3 жыл бұрын
This is the exact reason Doom Eternal is such a great game, fighting demons just feels satisfying and fun, which gets you try play risky and try some cool things
@freddy2t
2 жыл бұрын
punished by rewards is an stunning book on this subject. It's such a radical paradigm shift to how we are brought up in school and work and so helpful for understanding your inner motivation
@jertlemiah
4 жыл бұрын
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually hate leaderboards and love (good) achievements. When I find my game is scored-based with leaderboards, I become LESS motivated and pretty quickly lose interest, but if I beat a game and see I'm still missing some achievements, I will gladly hop back into to scrounge for them. Bonus feel-good points when you get an achievement only 0.5% other players have gotten.
@jexx2974
4 жыл бұрын
Good point and steam, achivements are rarer than they are classified because of the people that cheated them. Also It is very demotivating when you see some person with so high score that you know it had to be cheated.
@ShadwSonic
4 жыл бұрын
Exactly! An added motivator is in retroachievements.org, where getting ALL the cheevs for a given game will add an icon on your user page. And because the main leaderboard is for such a broad subject (mastery of all cheevs on the site), it really doesn't register unless you notice you're in the Top 100 or so. And at that point, it's just another motivator.
@dustinthompson8600
4 жыл бұрын
There are two reactions to comparing peoples performance that both stem from the same problem. 1. A lack of self-confidence that creates the urge to avoid the comparison outright. A flight response. 2. a lack of self-confidence that creates a need to 'prove' oneself. A fight response. (That will not go away once at the top because the position must be held).
@berylliosis5250
4 жыл бұрын
I dislike both, they almost make me less likely to play the game. Best reward for playing a game is, in my eyes, more of the game to play (as long as it's interesting)
@rickcolan2116
4 жыл бұрын
I personally love easter eggs achievements,you never know what you gonna find and it's satisfying as well. 10 min ago i did the chimp achievements in Halo 3 and was so hilarious
@izzypleasures3545
4 жыл бұрын
Video: This is about how rewards in game design can affect personal motivation Me, struggling with artistic burnout after a major commercial project: *OH.*
@epicgaming7813
3 жыл бұрын
F
@BBWahoo
3 жыл бұрын
what was the project
@jordanfleming7022
4 жыл бұрын
10:43 “When they create their games, [Nintendo’s designers] don’t tell you how to play their game in order to achieve some kind of mythical reward. There are things you can do in the game that will result in some sort if reward or unexpected surprise.” - Bill Trinen “No! This isn’t how you’re supposed to play the game!” - Masahiro Sakurai
@moonman4307
4 жыл бұрын
Rip sakurai, i love that man, but i really wish hed accept and embrace the competitive scene of smash bros, rather than being ashamed of it. I get where hes coming from since it doesnt feel good for both players if one of them absolutely destroys another player in a 1v1 game, which is smth he notes in an interview, but u cant really avoid that situation from happening, no matter how hard u try to otherwise. Ultimate does seem to be a step in the right direction, but i still long for the day when smash bros fully embraces the comp scene and its depth and movement, whether its directed by sakurai or not.
@sigurdtheblue
3 жыл бұрын
@@moonman4307 Most likely, Sakurai will not make the next Smash game or there will be a Smash Bros reboot a long time from now. At least that is what Sakurai said when Ultimate was in development and announced.
@BlaxeFrost-X
3 жыл бұрын
Wasn't that quote for when he was fighting himself with one controller in one hand and one in the other? It's another context...
@Siofragames
4 жыл бұрын
I just realized I've done this to myself with social media and art. I used to do tons of art, but recently I was disappointed by the lack of social reward on social media and I've stopped creating as much art :/
@shojodraws3399
3 жыл бұрын
One of my favorite unexpected surprises is probably is the portal achievement where you take all the radios to this one specific place in each room until they fuzz out, something you are never asked to do and probably wouldn't know you could do it unless you scrolled through the games achievement section, or your friend told you about it only to discover that you get to see a secret room containing lore. This lore doesn't really give you much, practically the only thing it does is give you a clue that Glados ain't very nice, it's just there as a gift. I just liked how neat and completely optional it was.
@seselis625
11 ай бұрын
This one is far deeper AND more apt an example than you've indicated here - in Portal 1, they added the achievement "transmission received" years after release with 0 other info. The radio signals are codes that led to other places like old BBS boards and eventually the players themselves revealed Portal 2. It was a beautiful ARG
@turdwallet8840
4 жыл бұрын
Well done with this video Mark! I’m reflecting on my repressed memories of childhood in school. How unmotivated I was. This has helped me realize I need to keep learning for my own sake goddamnit. Thank you. Keep thinking outside the box with topics like these. You’re hard work is paying off!
@DRida64
4 жыл бұрын
The main thing that popped into my head from this video essay was in relation to D&D, specifically the jump from 3.5e to 5e within my friend group. In 3.5e, you would constantly be bombarded with items and loot. This gradually made players expect loot all the time. When 5e came around, they (WOTC) made it so that magic items were supposed to be rarer in the edition. Thus, people that used loot as a motivator lost their motivation to play. This, in turn, made DM's fundamentally change how the game ran, by bumping up the rewards for combat, to keep those players invested. This video essay was nice to listen to. I really enjoyed it.
@blackhammer5035
4 жыл бұрын
There is another layer to that though, at least in the case of D&D. Items were a big part of the character's identity in that edition, and were less something you picked out and planned for and more just found. They represented a growth of your character not only mechanically, but also narratively. Another way to represent their experiences and adventures. 5e's magic items were not only rarer, but also a lot more bland and specific. So people who have fond memories of a character growing into powerful items over their adventures were going to be disappointed with 5e, just as much as the people who were just after raw loot and numerical bonuses.
@Tylwth
4 жыл бұрын
I think I much prefer the idea of hidden goals or broad ones rather than comparative ones, I honestly find leaderboards incredibly demotivating, why would I ever want to know that Im awful compared to x number of people? unless its a competitive game and I want to play it competitivly telling me how i compare to others is a sure fire way to make me lose interest if im not good, which most people arent when starting a game, personal scores are much better, they show your improvement relative to yourself rather than relative to people who are likely on average better than you unless your playing a game soon after release.
@blortbugman8722
4 жыл бұрын
Yes I was going to say the same thing about leaderboards, I just get demotivated because of them
@The_Jovian
4 жыл бұрын
I like uncharteds hidden trackers that pop up during gameplay when you've achieved a higher score in a certain area from your friends. Like it'll show when you've gotten more headshots or something.
@familiarbit5319
4 жыл бұрын
By the way, the games shown as an example in this video have the option to turn off leaderboards
@ThePC007
4 жыл бұрын
I find leaderboards to be entirely meaningless unless I know the people on them. And since it's rare that I find my friends on leaderboards (I think the only games that I found anybody I knew were those of Race the Sun and Super Meat Boy), I mostly don't really care. The only exception to that rule are Zachtronics' games since the data is actually presented in a meaningful way rather than just a list of names, but mere lists aren't really interesting.
@RialuCaos
4 жыл бұрын
This is very true for me. Having a leaderboard just tells me "These people have way more time to spend on this game than you do."
@AdeptusForge
4 жыл бұрын
Something to also keep track of is how rewards are framed. Progression systems, especially due to leveling up and the like, tend not to cause the same reward behaviour, as many players come to expect it rather that pay attention to it. They see it as less a reward for actions and more a predetermined expansion of ability. In my testing, players that get rewards that are referred to as 'Unlocks' have statistically significant less trouble with reward-pattern gameplay then referring to those same rewards as 'Bonuses'. As with many things in life, framing can often matter more than what is being framed.
@davyhotch
4 жыл бұрын
A goat story got hyped up then didn't happen. I feel cheated and demoralised.
@as1tis
4 жыл бұрын
came here to say this.
@nahometesfay1112
4 жыл бұрын
@Alexander Supertramp How does that make his point? This video was about how getting rewards can reduce intrinsic motivation not how being told there's a reward, and never getting said reward reduces motivation.
@nekoimouto4639
4 жыл бұрын
@@nahometesfay1112 Is curiosity not an intrinsic motivation?
@nahometesfay1112
4 жыл бұрын
@@nekoimouto4639 Curiosity is an intrinsic motivation for the subject of your curiosity. In this case, they were curious about the goat which created extrinsic motivation to watch a video about video games because the video implied it would also talk about the goat. They are now upset that the video misled them which shows that they were extrinsically motivated to watch the video. They probably had multiple intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, but curiosity about the goat was an extrinsic motivation that wasn't fufilled.
@EricKesterson
4 жыл бұрын
We're the 4th group of kids - promised a reward and then not rewarded.
@davec8385
4 жыл бұрын
Wow this video gave me some deep insight into why I love learning things that are 'useless' and sometimes even avoid learning things for school. The interensic vs extrensic rewards are really powerful for me
@Zeik56
4 жыл бұрын
It's definitely a hard problem to solve, especially because not everyone is going to feel the same way. I personally get no real motivation or satisfaction from leaderboards or beating my own high score, and completely open-ended games with no goals whatsoever tend to lose their appeal to me very fast. But I also find shallow goals or checklists like achievements pretty unrewarding. The most satisfying games fall somewhere between those extremes.
@JessicaCarrico
4 жыл бұрын
7:11 This is why I stopped enjoying doing 3D animation and I'm now lost on what I want to do with my life. I loved it, until it became a job. Now I'm afraid of turning any other of my passions into my job, but, at the same time, I don't want to work a job I don't like. I might just leave the game industry behind and look for something else.
@Chocolatnave123
3 жыл бұрын
just be a stripper
@SignificantPressure100
3 жыл бұрын
@@Chocolatnave123 why do morally depraved people like you exist? My life was much better seconds ago before knowing you.
@commanderleo
3 жыл бұрын
@@SignificantPressure100 you could just ignore them
@SignificantPressure100
3 жыл бұрын
@@commanderleo true
@DensetsuVII
4 жыл бұрын
I see a microcosm of this in my experience of notoriously complex grand strategy game Europa Universalis 4 which gives players so few overt goals that it's actually an obstacle to teaching the already incredibly difficult interconnected systems. I found this very annoying as a new player and often when teaching the game, I go out of my way to tell new players very discrete goals, or tell them that in truth, the goals are the hundreds of achievements in game. But interestingly enough, for the most part, my most memorable moments are not so much the achievement of those achievements. My most upvoted reddit post of all time was playing during a game when I tried to conquer the world as Joseon (midieval) Korea. I became the emperor of China (long story), turned most of my neighboring nations into my tributaries, and allied the powerful Ottoman Empire and we attacked Russia together. We rolled over them and just as I was ready to take some land, my allies ended the war and gave me nothing... it seemed. When I read the fine print, I realized they'd made the Russian empire, a nation almost as big as me, into my tributary, giving me so many power projection points for defeating my rival that the number appeared over the point-cap. The funniest thing is that the rest of the campaign was a failure by the standards of the achievement - but I view it as one of my finest moments because of the reception that hilarious screenshot got. There is surely a fine balance to be had, but this video is such a wonderful reminder of what it means to seek happiness in life and in game. AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE GOAT?!
@dmitrygavr6876
4 жыл бұрын
Grand strategy games are for sure a great example of this goal-and-reward issue. I find EU4 experience amazing for the very reason that you should set your own goals and choose your playstyle accordingly. I still enjoy playing majors and minors alike, because it's obviously different circumstances that make it re-playable. If it were that the goal was to become the greatest power, everyone would pick Russia or the Turks -- yet, you are free to envision your own type of challenge (achievements aside), which is much more rewarding to face. Also, there is a kind of unexpected rewards in flavour events and in random (but oftentimes structured and somewhat guided) situations the different countries get themselves into. That said, EU4 as a grand strategy game does have its own problems when it comes to achieving something. You have highlighted one aspect -- complex nature of the game makes it hard for new players to both grasp the mechanics and set their goals at the same time. For experienced players there's the other issue. The sandbox aspect of the game lets you set your own goals, sure. But it also makes so that, once you figure out the min-maxing, you find out that the proper way to achieve anything is to simply blob out (yes they have implemented many features to mitigate this, but in the core it's still the same). With that, the game seems more and more grindy. So you have to choose more challenging starts, but everyone has done Byzantium by now, right?
@sayyiddaffam6822
4 жыл бұрын
The formable nation kinda acts like a goal. Example like Castille to Spain, Muscovy to Russia, etc.
@Vanished_Mostly
4 жыл бұрын
Oh shit, yeah! I forgot about the goat. Shit's gonna keep me up at night.
@MoustachioFurioso83
4 жыл бұрын
I remember the tutorial of Crusader Kings telling me, as the king of León, to declare war on the pagan chief holding the Canaries islands. After losing most of my men to attrition and the strong defenders, I decided to retreat, end the war, flip the bird, and do whatever I wanted instead. That is to say, kill my brothers to grab their respective kingdoms, and start an early Reconquista. The game is still going, with me trying to find a way to take back Navarre from the HRE without having to go to war with the bloody invincible behemoth it became.
@NeonDripKitty
4 жыл бұрын
Ok so how do you get Intrinsic motivation back after it changed to extrinsic? I use to love drawing and 3d modelling in my free time to the point of doing it on the bus, but after doing it for college I don't have that drive anymore and I kinda want it back.
@bloodymilchshake5876
2 жыл бұрын
Hey, have you found a solution to your problem already? If so, I'm really interested in hearing it!^^
@Nirual86
Жыл бұрын
I don't think there's any kind of magic trick. You kinda just have to shake off that expectation and rediscover the passion yourself. Maybe try to come up with a concept or idea in the same field but not the exact same thing you did as a job back then. Even if its something out feel less competent at. In fact, the more you'd have to learn from scratch to do it the more it might feel like a fun hobby to develop again rather than starting up a new workflow for a job.
@jackjmaheriii
4 жыл бұрын
On Mini Metro: I play that game all the time, I’ve been playing it for three years, and I only ever play the first level. For me, the fun is derived from the decision that comes from learning something deeply instead of broadly. And this game offers that in spades! (Also, my personal record is 3400.)
@Some.username.idk.0
4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I had that game for two months, played less that an hour in total, tried every few days, would get too annoyed and would close it
@jackjmaheriii
4 жыл бұрын
I had a similar experience with Satisfactory. I found the need to move my resource gathering conveyor belts frustrating. Frostpunk has a similar mechanic but in that instance I found it to be rewarding. And I’m not sure what made the difference.
@bemo_10
4 жыл бұрын
You are the same type of player that plays only "dust_2" :P
@jackjmaheriii
4 жыл бұрын
@@bemo_10 You might be right! I don’t play CSGO, but The Last of Us multiplayer I always voted for The Dam.
@sandgaijin
4 жыл бұрын
I play just the first level too! Manhattan is a fun map too. The rest are just too stressful.
@aragornweaver160
4 ай бұрын
Two years in recovery. This was probably the best argument for a healthier and against transactional relationships I've ever heard.
@aminthemar
4 жыл бұрын
So we just learned why school sucks! You only care about knowledge to get a good grade at the end.
@KairuHakubi
4 жыл бұрын
It's been shown several times that the classroom is the worst possible learning environment
@jvcmarc
4 жыл бұрын
yes, I barely remeber anything I learned from school, but I still remember everything that I thought myself through research and online courses
@PaladinfffLeeroy
4 жыл бұрын
And they called me crazy when I proclaimed this as a teenager...
@bertiecook959
4 жыл бұрын
Woah
@FUZxxl
4 жыл бұрын
It wasn't that way for me. I had a lot of intrinsic motivation going to school, so I actually really enjoyed it. I suppose the main problem is that teachers fail to grow that intrinsic motivation in their student and (depending on the education system) assign too much value to tests.
@diegoparga9324
4 жыл бұрын
When Hitman (2016) was released as episodes, I enjoyed playing the same location over and over trying to find better ways to complete the main objectives. Now, I find myself just hunting for challenges to cross them off the list and move on to the next location
@SamSpade903
4 жыл бұрын
Read “Drive” by Daniel Pink. A whole book explaining motivation and arguing, at points, against extrinsic motivators. Great read.
@GhostPuddle
4 жыл бұрын
I like to apply this knowledge to social media. Most people start posting because they find it fun, but once they find out that they can get hundreds of likes, they start posting just for the likes alone, which makes the quality of the posts drop, which makes the ammount of likes drop, which makes it less fun to use social media once you've gotten into it.
@subprogram32
4 жыл бұрын
Ooh this was a really good video! I super liked how you kept looping back to the classroom experiement, each time with more and more detail revealed about how it went and what it means for human reward systems. :D
@hailing_
4 жыл бұрын
Probably unlisted and Patreon supporters get early access
@coldrunhershel604
4 жыл бұрын
@@Obeu magic. But no, the video was link only before and he got a hang of a link
@ninjaqkk7883
4 жыл бұрын
@SheepDog Probably a supporter who gets early access to videos
@shimisadd
4 жыл бұрын
1 day ago? Why u cheatin :(
@KairuHakubi
4 жыл бұрын
getting more and more snippets of the story was a reward!
@swanqlord3048
3 жыл бұрын
Minecraft, in my opinion, is the quintessential example of what you said in this video. There are zero quests or challenges to complete (unless you care about achievements that have nothing to do with progression in the game). Sure, you can kill the ender dragon to "beat the game", but as someone who has played this game for years and countless hours, I have yet to defeat the ender dragon. Instead, I made my own challenge. I found a little island and decided I would build a castle. That castle turned into a colossal four story ziggurat with a miniature city inside it. A massive auto farm also sits adjacent to it. I cleared out deserts worth of sand to build it. The great thing is is that my castle does nothing a small dirt shack cannot. You can build a tiny dirt cube, put chests, an enchanting table, a crafting table, etc., and that's it. That's all you need to survive and beat the game. However, instead of doing this, I decided for myself I would build a castle. Notch didnt tell me to, I just felt like doing it, and in doing so I have poured countless hours into this game. If I had an objective in a game that was like "mine a ridiculous amount of blocks for hours so that you can spend hours placing them" I would never play that game. Nobody would. However, because it was my decision to build that castle, I painstakingly spent dozens of hours breaking and placing blocks. And in the end, what did I get for grinding other than bragging rights? Pretty much nothing. The game gives you zero rewards for anything you build. And yet completing that castle was honestly one of the most incredible things I have done in gaming. It is still not done over a year later, and I dont know if it will ever be. This immense self reward following an immense challenge posed by myself is endlessly more satisfying than receiving xp for killing a certain amount of enemies. It's because of this that I can never get bored of minecraft. There is always something to create, design, mine, improve, and absolutely nothing is told to you by the game. The devs drop you in an immense sandbox with countless tools to play with and just let us go crazy with our imaginations. And, as a result, minecraft is one of if not the best selling game of all time.
@illusorybucket5703
4 жыл бұрын
Not only do you teach me about the importance of things in game design, but you also sometimes peak my interest in a game I may have otherwise had no interest in
@oldcowbb
4 жыл бұрын
"goals and rewards have an end" battle pass: let me introduce myself
@CloudCuckooCountry
4 жыл бұрын
I recently got into Age of Empires 2 as my first RTS game and fell in love with the game simply because it's lots of fun. There's absolutely no rewards or unlock system, but learning new civs and build orders has engaged me way more than games with persistent reward structures.
@sakanagakyoko
4 жыл бұрын
I have a hard tine with online free to plays because of the constant reawards for doing nothing, i feel overwhelmed like i do need those rewards to keep up with other players, not for the rewards' sake. My favorite kind reward i remember must be in the longing, you wait, you do nothing for maybe days and one day you open up and theres a cool fluorescent mushrom garden, so pretty it filled me with joy. I liked rewards in undertale for surprising me too. I liked rewards in minecraft because its like a discovery every time
@ericm1839
4 жыл бұрын
this might explain why I like metroidvanias so much. there's a clear but vague goal of "progress" and small, random goals of "you explored this off-beat path, did a very difficult challenge and got more missiles", but there isnt the big floating arrow telling you which direction to go or how to get past your hurdles.
@DragonDoFogo
4 жыл бұрын
Opened my eyes to why I'm growing less interested with some live-games / GAAS. The reward system is about "when am I going to get the next thing?" and less about player expression/agency. Guess that's why I love stealth games. They give you tools and you figure out how to use them best even if you have an overall objective, and maybe optional ones. I need to rethink some stuff though... that forum post was heavy
@EvilCoffeeInc
4 жыл бұрын
This is a really interesting topic that I'd like to explore more. I'm a cognitive scientist with a heavy interest in learning and education. I'd never considered rewards from this perspective but I can even see how in my personal life these rules generally hold true. It would be interesting to explore more ways to combine intrinsic and extrinsic rewards. I feel like in some games like Hitman, the objectives are balanced out by the freeform approach to assassination. And it was always cool to go out of bounds in Halo to find skulls or secrets. Bungie knew you would go out there. All the more reason to boot up Unity and keep making things!
@jackthorndyke3390
4 жыл бұрын
I've never really been shown this angle on how extrinsic rewards can negatively affect our interest in things that we were previously intrinsically motivated to do. I've noticed this effect before myself in my experience with online multiplayer games. It's happened to me a few times where I play a game I enjoy for hundreds of hours without getting bored, and eventually I begin to approach a competitive skill level. The competition and drive to be good completely drains the fun out of the game, and I get bored of it and quit it for a long time before I might regain interest. This was a fantastic video, both very educational and entertaining. Thank you for providing such amazing content!
@logangrant3359
4 жыл бұрын
I went to my college's database to find more info on incentives affecting innovation and now I'm reading a 30 page essay evaluating the legitimacy of vest-interest theory by analyzing how institutions, agenda power holders, and political structures affect innovation in 100 different countries.
@benspurlock2554
4 жыл бұрын
Wow, just read about the drawing experiment this morning in the book “Drive” by Daniel Pink. Interesting how intrinsic motivation is often the most satisfying reward for creative or heuristic tasks. Great video as always!
@3possumsinatrenchcoat
4 жыл бұрын
okay, but the question we all need the answer to: *does it explain the goat* ? ? ?
@ZlothZloth
4 жыл бұрын
@@3possumsinatrenchcoat The goat was a red herring (with a bad cold, making it sound like a goat).
@ZlothZloth
4 жыл бұрын
Was there more to that study? The way its show here, it was just one class of about 50-60 kids, all from pretty much the same culture and age group.
@rosalindgatto9630
4 жыл бұрын
9:53 There were only about 18 kids in each group?! That doesn't seem like a large enough sample size for accurate results, or am I just reading that incorrectly? Has this experiment been redone with larger sample sizes that support the original study's claims?
@artful2215
4 жыл бұрын
I've just read the paper, and yes it's enough. Not enough to be hundred percent sure, but enough to be published. According to a meta-analysis I've found, the effect is yet to be proven, but we are pretty sure it does exist in some specific situations.
@varnonzero
4 жыл бұрын
So first, sample size is not everything, for a lot of reasons. But also, the paper was published in 1973, the standards were different then. That paper is sort of a classic that started a conversation that has been going on ever since. I would say the current consensus is that the overjustifcation effect can happen, but not that it always does. The research and debate is still on going.
@AndreasVNesje
4 жыл бұрын
how many kids do you want to ruin for science?
@varnonzero
4 жыл бұрын
@Cherry That isn't how what works? I agree, early psychologists were often bigoted in many ways.
@LeviathanLP
3 жыл бұрын
Short answer: Yes. The sample size was too small, and yes, the experiment has been analyzed and replicated, the results confirming the overjustification effect. Long answer: You're right to be skeptical about it. There are some fairly harmful implications in this dichotomy between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards. For instance, it implies that employers should pay their employees less to get better, more passionate work out of them, which is heccin dystopian. Even if that works, it's still morally wrong to do that, and we're starting to find out how little you can pay someone before it starts negatively impacting performance due to poverty-related issues. The thing to know is, the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards is pretty arbitrary and should not be considered in any serious behavioral calculations. Rewards are rewards. Intrinsic rewards are just harder to modify, and as a result tend to offer more resilience to behavior than flighty extrinsic rewards. Here's what the takeaway should actually be: When you give someone a little extra reward, be consistent about it, or else they'll stop doing that thing you like as often as they used to. And the secret bonus takeaway for you masterminds out there: When you want someone to stop doing something, or at least to do it less, give them extravagant praise and rewards for doing it for a while, consistently -- and then stop.
@Mockingdragon
7 ай бұрын
The Don't Starve example is really interesting to me since the Minecraft achievement system serves to teach what's possible in the world. I haven't played Don't starve but there's so much in Minecraft I wouldn't have figured out I could do on my own. I also found it pretty easy to ignore achievements I wasn't interested in
@pat1509
4 жыл бұрын
I'm a simple man I see Don't Starve I click
@fiQmeister
4 жыл бұрын
Ad-free videos are the best, youtube is literaaly forcing people to buy that premium. Ty patreons :)
@LeviathanLP
3 жыл бұрын
Hey, KZitem is just trying to avoid giving creators the overjustification effect. They should do it out of passion, not for money! (I mean seriously, who needs money?)
@eneco3965
3 жыл бұрын
Imagine not using an adblocker in the current year
@fiQmeister
3 жыл бұрын
@@eneco3965 You can't use adblocker in the mobile youtube app.
@eneco3965
3 жыл бұрын
@@fiQmeister So just use youtube vanced
@fiQmeister
3 жыл бұрын
@@eneco3965 didnt know about that
@danielsjohnson
4 жыл бұрын
I can confirm adding extrinsic motivation to something already intrinsicly motivated removes the intrinsic motivation. When I was younger, I would sometimes take 1-3 shopping carts from the parking lot of a store just as a nice thing to do. To help out the employess for no particular reason. Then I did that as part of a job I got at a grocery store. I still liked doing it to help out. Fast forward a few years and now my thinking is "I don't want to bring in shopping carts unless I'm getting paid to."
@JDogth3Wise
3 жыл бұрын
This video is so unbelievably relevant to Escspe From Tarkov and how many players completely ignore the free roam elements and speedrun quests, as you say in the intro, in a very optimized and boring way, and then just drop the game when there is no more quests markers.
@charliecleveland9053
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great video, as usual! It's strange how much I learned from this, even though I used a lot of it already in Subnautica after I read the same work you did, from Klei. I've been harping on about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards for years now, and I'm sure the Subnautica team became annoyed when I refused a quest system. Now I find myself especially inspired about personal score as a motivator, something I hadn't thought about for Moonbreaker. Thanks Mark! -Charlie
@Absnerdity
4 жыл бұрын
As a rebuttal to the quote from Bill Trinen. Since there was such a sheer number of Korok Seeds in Breath of the Wild, every time I saw a little nook or mini-puzzle, I learned that "Yup, I'm only going to get a Korok Seed for that, so I can just skip it". Same could be said of Mario Odyssey. There were just SO MANY Moons. Every little thing would lead to a moon or coins, thus "I don't need to bother with that, because it's only a moon/coins". I'd also argue that Nintendo very much heavy-handedly tells you how to play their games. For example, Mario Party REQUIRING you to use a Joy-con by DISABLING Pro controllers entirely. Very few of Nintendo's games have customizable controls. It burns me still that I can't put movement on DPad in Smash Bros.
@Selestrielle
4 жыл бұрын
7:30 or how studying literature killed my interest for books.
@Selestrielle
4 жыл бұрын
@Shockheadd45 I was gonna say actually some of the books I read in Uni were great... but then I realized almost all of them were either recent or from authors native to Africa, the Carribeans or Asia.
@Selestrielle
4 жыл бұрын
@Shockheadd45 Most of the standard courses were, but the electives were fun. I had one "Science Fiction and Fantasy in Contemporary Literature" class with a Nigeria-Canadian Professor who had some amazing reading materials. And one "French Detective Fiction in African Diaspora" where literally every book was amazing. I feel like the most specific these courses went, the better the books we had to read. The mandatory curriculum that went century-broad like "17th century literature" had the most standard mayonnaise.
@JollyJuiice
4 жыл бұрын
I take it the people in this thread don't like white people?
@jonathanlange5769
4 жыл бұрын
Great video. Here are some additional thoughts of mine about achievements. I love the concept of achievements and always check on Steam if there are any for a game before buying (I still buy games without them). But they are hard to generalize. Some are just usefull as a guide what to do or like a checklist what the game still has to offer. For example after finishing the main part do it again without a specific ability, when not to tedious an opportunity for replayablity. Some force you to be creative with vague descriptions or encourage you to do something silly (riding a unicorn while shooting the rainbow gun, take a cow with you into space). Hidden achievements can surprise you and are just there to tell you you can still find something in the game, but I have to admit that soemtimes I give up and look them up. For me completing a game with 100% is defintely something nice. But that being said achievements can be implemented badly in a lot of ways: for buying a DLC, just mindless grind (look up Shell shock live on Steam it has a "earn X amount of XP" with a global 0% completion ratio) or being completly uncreative and worst timed stuff (will never get my last medal in Pokemon black 2 :() They can also add to the whole stlye a game is presented in on a meta level just look at the stupid things to do in the Stanley Parable. Earning them can also be quite memorable. In Jotun I sat like 2 hours on a misson to kill a specific boss in 25 seconds and everytime I got one second closer it was just pure joy. Icarus Kid Uprising on the 3DS also had great achivments, because they force you out of your comfort zone and make you try our all weapon types. (curse me for missing like 5 remaining ones) sry for my english
@353veronika
4 жыл бұрын
One thing I found out about myself is that if i play a game and finish these arbitrary goals I either stop playing or find my own arbitrary goals. This depends on whether the initial goals last me long enough for me to develop habit of playing the game. If i have created a habit (or if the game is simply fun for me) then I create my own goals, things that I still can do in the game in order for me to play towards something new just so I can keep on playing.
@SeanTDrake
4 жыл бұрын
I appreciate how BOTW split the difference by only showing your completion percentage AFTER you defeated the final boss. Before that point, it was completely up to you how much you wanted to explore and how much of the game you wanted to play before you were "satisfied" and confronted Ganon. But once you'd beaten him, the percentage metric was there in case you wanted to satisfy your completionist compulsions.
@smackdownsoup
4 жыл бұрын
I've been feeling this about games, and even noticing it in my own gaming habits for a while now, cool to see someone put it into words so eloquently.
@nocontexthuman6103
4 жыл бұрын
Me: Wait, it’s all meaningful? Mark Brown: Always has been...
@catreecemacleod7556
3 жыл бұрын
Very nice video =3 Game designer here, and I'd like to expand on the issue slightly using a case example. Namely that of how many games use RPG elements now but fail horribly due to such. The "fun" from RPG elements is that they tend to be focused on gaining levels, or improving somehow, which is based off sating the psychological need to constantly be progressing. Over time, humans zero out whatever state they're in, which is great if you're in a rough situation for survival, because you'll get used to it and it won't be so bad, and in a good situation it pushes you to better that situation further. You will always eventually drift towards things feeling normal, and slightly not great, so you always want to get better. This is where the problem comes in with many games. Adding RPG elements is great in the short-term, because it gives players something to look forwards to as a goal. They can keep improving, keep getting better, and it makes things great! ...Until it runs out. Then it actually becomes more of a detriment than if you didn't have it at all, as the video stated. You'd be better off if you didn't have the RPG elements at all if they have an end to them, because once you finish leveling, you're "done" as it were. Or, worse yet, it feels like a waste. A prime example of this is Starcraft 2's co-op mode, where you get various commanders, and playing them gains experience which translates into levels and new abilities for them. This gives plenty of reason to keep playing early on! ...But once your commander reaches the level cap, any time you play them after that it actually feels bad because all that experience is going to waste. This was "solved" by adding more things for that experience to go towards after you reach max level, but that too had a maximum level cap, and once you reached that level cap, the same problem cropped back up again. So they fixed it again... by adding a prestige system where you could start your commander back at level 1 and level them all over again to unlock new play styles for them! ...And once you reached the level cap the problem came right back again, where you now had more things you could do with the commander, but it was wasted experience and actively felt bad to play them. The biggest issue here being that, if you had a favourite commander you liked playing the most, more than others, this setup actively penalizes you the harshest for doing the thing you have the most fun with. Therefore, the issue with adding RPG elements to a game is that they provide benefit only as long as there's still the capacity to keep improving over time. Unless you go into such with the intent of the game having a clearly defined end to it where players should stop playing, or unless you provide an infinitely scaling reward system, the players will hit the point where they don't want to play anymore. In the clearly defined ending point, this isn't a huge issue because the game's supposed to end there anyway, and it's just a matter of tweaking things so the rewards run out right at about the same time the game's content runs out. The game's progression absolutely has to last as long as you expect players to keep playing the game is the issue though, and if the game is intended to have infinite replayability, then it also has to have infinite progression or the replayability dies as soon as the progression does. If your game doesn't have progression, then it doesn't suffer from this potential problem, but also doesn't gain the potential benefits either. Also note that progression has a cost:reward ratio inherent to it. If you try to stretch out the progression by having it take longer to get to each new reward plateau (more exp needed for each new level for example), then there's a point at which players become frustrated at how much effort it takes to get to the next reward, and that ratio of cost to reward is different for each player. For niche games, it's not a big deal, just know your target audience and tailor it to their preferences, but for widespread appeal games meant to cast a wide net among very many players, such as MMORPGs, then you're going to run into severe issues pretty much guaranteed because no amount of tweaking will make everyone happy and there will always be some players who feel it's too fast or too slow, so you're better off generally avoiding this kind of a setup for games meant for widespread appeal. And yes, it can be too fast, if the rewards are too great for too little effort, they become meaningless to most players, and while a small subset will be happy no matter how high the rewards are for little, or even no effort, the vast majority of players prefer to only get rewarded when they feel they've earned it. Anyway, the point is that it's just another example where many games add a reward system but it backfires hard. Technically three examples, but whatever, close enough. =P
@LSSTmusic
3 жыл бұрын
my thing with all of this is that I play games specifically for that sense of satisfaction that comes extrinsic rewards. when i play a game without extrinsic motivation, like Minecraft and ESPECIALLY like Don't Starve (which i find to be one of the dullest games I've ever played in my life), i tend to get bored pretty quickly, because the question of "why am i bothering with this at all?" is constantly in the front of my mind. why am i spending my time working towards a meaningless goal in a meaningless digital world? at that point, i either hop off and do something actually constructive, or i play a game that actually keeps me engaged.
@timewasting7574
4 жыл бұрын
I feel like the effect of extrinsic/ intrinsic motivations is related to pressure. Expected achievements add pressure while players who are instrictly motivated create pressure for themselves. When pressure is overloaded, the player breaks down and loses motivation.
@DoYouBelvInTheYeti
4 жыл бұрын
For narrative drive people a perfect reward is audio logs. They give insight into the story beyond what is immediately seen, driving the person to explore so they get the most of the story, like brush strokes on a painting.
@r1pfake521
3 жыл бұрын
Reminds me of playing Grounded survival game with friends, we did the "tutorial" quests and after they ran out they said we "finished" the game, I said the whole point of the game is to just craft stuff and build bases, explore etc and not to do quests, they said that's boring and quit. They can only play games if the game tells them them what to do all the time.
@brockmckelvey7327
3 жыл бұрын
I put down Minecraft when I first played because I had NO IDEA what to do. It was fun for a bit, but not much longer. Sometimes people NEED those goals to help guide them. Not all games are supposed to be lifetime investments.
@princessthyemis
4 жыл бұрын
The overjustification system is really fascinating! That's exactly what I feel like when I'm in the mood to clean the kitchen and then my grandma tells me to clean the kitchen and I don't want to do it anymore LOL. Maybe if I explain this to her she will understand where I'm coming from!
@Grapefruit5000
4 жыл бұрын
I love how RDR 2 handled it. Sometimes you find a new gun from exploring some random hut, sometimes you get punished for your curiosity and sometimes you just get a short cutscene for doing a quest. You never know what to expect. It never felt generic.
@andresgonzalezcalva9502
2 жыл бұрын
I now the video is from a while ago, but I just discovered it so ill keep going with my idea. The idea is that you maybe could have mention how games with a ranking system ends up making them less enjoyable because when you get stuck and dont climb, you go through the same that happend to the kids who were getting a reward
@NoriMori1992
3 жыл бұрын
When you said that Don't Starve used to have quests, my entire brain recoiled. Thank God they took those out.
@jamiemccreath3959
4 жыл бұрын
If Smash had an option to hide GSP, I would definitely take it. The whole point of measuring wins (in my opinion) is to be able to match up people of similar skill levels so nobody feels way too over- or under- skilled for a match. But after each match when I see my GSP go up or down, I immediately stop thinking about the game as something to *play* and start thinking about it as something to *win*.
@Logan_Baron
2 жыл бұрын
That's why I love Don't Starve so much. You can have any number of goals you choose, and they change as you wish. I remember starting off with the goal of not starving. First thing is to gather materials to make a campfire because the night time creatures will come quicker than you expect. But of course I had to learn that from dying because I was only or mostly gathering food instead. But once you figure out that stuff, not starving and not being in the dark becomes pretty easy. So the real goal is never "Don't Starve" for very long after you start playing.
@IGI_Media
Жыл бұрын
@Game Maker's Toolkit - A related story for you: A shop owner noticed sales were declining, and he attributed that to the small group/gang hanging outside his store. He went outside, and offered each person 10$ to be there in front of the store. For the first few days, the kids were there as expected. The shop owner went out one day, and explained that sales were low, and that he could only afford to pay them 5$ each day. For the next couple of days, only a few kids were outside. The store owner again went outside and informed the kids that he was unable to pay them. The kids got upset, and never returned.
@nightbringer99
3 жыл бұрын
That shot of the xbox 360 achievements for PGR4 was a HUGE hit of nostalgia for me. The SMB avatar pic just topped it off.
@defaulterror2255
3 жыл бұрын
Someone send this to the Overwatch Devs
@bLu48o
4 жыл бұрын
Alternate Title: Every Online Game Today
@Dark_Peace
4 жыл бұрын
But first, let me introduce you to our sponsor : Raid Shadow Legend
@zankisfine3816
4 жыл бұрын
For real I stopped playing warframe because 1. It’s pay to win, like you have to pay like 15$ to change your name (edit: wrong I just grind 2. The skill cap(edit: in modes like pvp, which no one plays anymore) And 3. I stopped getting rewards
@manospapad2087
4 жыл бұрын
@@zankisfine3816 I have 3.000 hours in Warframe and I don't play that much anymore but you are kinda wrong on the first point imo. Warframe is not Pay2win simply because there isn't anything valuable to pay for in the first place. What you mean with the skill cap I assume is that there isn't one, you are completely clueless at the begining,after that you get the hang of it and after unlocking some core frames (Mesa, Nova, Rhino etc.) for the rest of the game you're just extremely overpowered. As for the reward part I agree fully, their rewards have been atrocious for years and unfortunately this doesn't seem to change.
@jorionedwards
4 жыл бұрын
@@zankisfine3816 I stopped too, but what part of Warframe is pay to win outside of the riven mafia? I paid $10 total for cosmetics and earned the rest of my plat through trading. I quit because of the boring, tedious grind. The game easy enough that I'd go afk on some missions if it weren't for the activity timer. Edit: KZitem ate my comment.
@zankisfine3816
4 жыл бұрын
Manos Papad yeah you’re right and by skill cap I mean with other players in modes like pvp
@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149
3 жыл бұрын
"How do I decide when I am satisfied?" Man. I... I don't know how to feel about this. I wasn't prepared for this existential steam post.
@peachesplums
3 жыл бұрын
in Outer Wilds you are only given one goal: get the codes and go explore" and its amazing. nothing is closed off until you progress, it's just go learn
@jeffreyblack666
4 жыл бұрын
I think a follow up on the kids study would be good. Were the kids drawing more to try to get the random reward again? If so, did they give up after a while (perhaps once the study group was gone)? If so, did they drop back to normal, or did they drop further due to lack of reward?
@roofkat
4 жыл бұрын
I made an arcadey platformer / roguelite all about getting into the flow, understanding the enemies, and being able to get further and further as you master your timing. While really happy with the gameplay, I was also very excited to add a story mode. When development was nearing it's end I started worrying about exactly what this video is about - the storymode gave fairly linear progression, and encouraged you to stop playing the current level (where players were often trying a few extra runs to see if they could improve their score) in order to progress the plot. It was definitely a good learning experience, but if I'd have to do it again I would completely change the story structure, as the story reward pretty much nullified people's intrinsic interest in becoming better and getting further.
@ziodice6166
4 жыл бұрын
I would have suggested maybe mentioning one thing about Achievement systems that are very effective: in games without strictly defined goals achievements *can* be used to encourage players to try experiences they may never have thought of. For example in something like a Crusader Kings title, the achievements are oft based on historical events or on reversals thereof. Many players might have gone, on their own, "I want to start as one of the three Jimena siblings, conquer the whole of Iberia to form the empire of Hispania, and then convert all of Iberia to Catholicism" which would net you two achievements, but on the other hand there's also an achievement for doing exactly the opposite, and completely drive Catholicism from the Iberian peninsula including a hypothetical special event task for achieving it. Without that achievement I think many players never would have even thought to try that experience in reverse.
@Maplie
4 жыл бұрын
7:16 OH so THIS is why I feel like if I got a job doing what I love I'd learn to hate it!
@Egryn
2 жыл бұрын
Probably the best reward I’ve ever got in a game was the first “final kill” in COD. Point blank range shotgun headshot. I still feel cool seeing the kill and listening to the entire chat group “Oooooh” in response.
@sepvrij5642
4 жыл бұрын
I always feel this applies for music as well. There's so much bands whose first albums is so much better than the later ones. You hear they're made with passion for music, the later ones are made with money as motivation or time pressure.
@soCuteKawai
4 жыл бұрын
I automatically thought about Mario Odyssey about the moon reward. 1st time you try to earn them is for unlocking a new world. Once you unlocked the next world, you are prompted to discover the rest of the moons but the reward is now lower than discovering new world. So, eventually, you reach this state of "What about this moon digging job without the correct paycheck? Am I doing a bullshit job?" situation.
@kylianos3907
4 жыл бұрын
I thought about this exact thing a while back. I was watching a friend play slay the spire. He was trying to beat the higher ascensions (difficulty levels) and getting very frustrated. I suggested to "maybe play some lower levels just to cool down and have fun." To which he replied with "No, those are useless, because i'm not making any progress." The progression system had caused him to view the earlier levels he once enjoyed as a completely meaningless waste of time. And now it was driving him to play the game in a way he didn't really enjoy, just because he felt like he had to.
@PapaBadDadcumsuckgod
4 жыл бұрын
Personally, achievements work a lot better for me than a leaderboard. I like a challenge, but theres also little reward to shaving off .1 seconds off the record, when all it does is take me from 2,057th to 2,056th. An achievement is a clear goal that feels much for satisfactory to me. "Yes! I've beaten the challenged put forth by the game designers" is more rewarding than "Yay, i was .1 seconds better than some other guy, but am still nowhere near the top"
@mattihol726
3 жыл бұрын
Right on. First time I found a korok seed at an interesting looking location I loved it. When I realized that there will always just be a korok seed if I go to that other interesting location I didn’t want to do it anymore.
@MrNoobomnenie
3 жыл бұрын
"The Overjustification Effect" also known as "Alienation" or "Marx proven right yet again"
@TAPHRIM
3 жыл бұрын
Holy flying fuck on a trolley, this explains so much about my life wtf. I used to love writing poems and short stories but after i won multiple prizes when i was younger I suddenly lost interest in doing it for the sake of doing it entirely. I'm mad that i didnt realize this sooner. because I even knew that it happened. I got rewarded and the when my parents asked whether i was writing something for a local competition with no prizes I said no, when originally i would have just done it for the experience.
@CrashSable
Жыл бұрын
My problem with extrinsic vs intrinsic motivations is that if I want to intrinsically entertain myself, I don't need any external stimulus that a game would provide - I have my own imagination. The entire point of turning to these other mediums is because I recognize how draining it is to try and be forever intrinsically motivated and I want some extrinsic motivations to be provided to inspire some more intrinsic ones or to pass the time until I figure out what I can motivate myself with next. Games should really focus on extrinsic motivations and let players figure out their own intrinsic goals because that's kind of the entire point of y'know... life? If we're not trusting players to do it themselves then we're not trusting them to live or be human or be entitled to any human rights - it really is that extreme
@samwood3691
4 жыл бұрын
The people who thumbs down this video must have thought that they would get a reward... Now thanks to you I realize why I stopped at 98% on Shadow of war, instead of finishing the game - I just kept killing the orc generals. Especially after early on having many deaths to these enemies, I found hunting and killing them (even after being like level 60 or so and pretty much unable to lose to them) that more satisfying than finishing the final couple of steps of the story. As for your video - great stuff as usual. Love these vids, subscribed a while ago, and hope to see more.
@julianemery718
9 ай бұрын
What i think might be an interesting topic to look into is, is there a difference between rewards and goals? For example: In BotW, your reward is a korok seed for finding a child of the forest. In Factorio, your goal is to launch a rocket. They both seem to be a "Do X, get Y" but the means and end are very different.
@rooislangwtf
4 жыл бұрын
7:13 The over justification effect - artists in a nutshell?
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