When allied to the Berbers, the Turks have the strongest Genitors in game, I love that.
@CornBredCrusader
2 жыл бұрын
And yet, still not really a strong point because its a team game and so gold isnt an issue as much as it is in 1v1s, and unit counters (like skirms or Genitors) don't matter as much either, since you effectively have double the eco to bee-line for one gold unit (archer/Knight) which covers the others weakness
@kooroshrostami27
2 жыл бұрын
Genitour is a meme unit.
@ivanstrydom8417
2 жыл бұрын
@@CornBredCrusader Turks have a high gold demand army, Janissaries, heavy camels and bombard cannon + add a few monks , Genitors are a superb addition that does not cost gold. instead of using gold heave Sepahi CA you use Sepahi Genitors in stead, its so much fun and balances your army well.
@Progeusz
2 жыл бұрын
@@ivanstrydom8417 They aren't superb. They are a waste of resources and population. They do nothing that other units couldn't do better. Gold heaviness doesn't matter in team games. Just make more trade carts and delete some vills.
@ivanstrydom8417
2 жыл бұрын
@@Progeusz Thank you for your input.
@ParamecioLord
2 жыл бұрын
The fact that Ornlu didn't even mention Hussite Reforms for Bohemians at first tells a lot about its relevance for the civ.
@junkyardemperor7030
2 жыл бұрын
Between its cost and especially the fact it's an imperial age tech, it comes too late to be viable. It needs to be moved to castle age (and maybe half its cost) to see any play
@satyakisil9711
2 жыл бұрын
Hussite Reforms is even worse than Madrasah. About the same tier as Mahayana.
@Duke_of_Lorraine
2 жыл бұрын
If we're talking about trash war then we're late into the imperial age. But the problem there is that monks are not worth it against trash units, even if only costing food. It's great when your enemy has an army of expensive units (knights elephants you name it...) but why bother against hussars that are near immune, or pikes and skirms ?
@ingoseiler
2 жыл бұрын
The only use for Hussite Monks I can imagine is to spam (?) them towards the enemy's production buildings, so kinda a food only Ram that also gives you their buildings, but that surely only works when there are no LC or better on the field
@Duke_of_Lorraine
2 жыл бұрын
@@ingoseiler they remain a pain to micromanage, while rams can be left to do their own things.
@CptManboobs
2 жыл бұрын
The fact that Byzantines are S tier despite havening two missing techs for the scout line really shows how powerful that 25% discount is.
@CornBredCrusader
2 жыл бұрын
Honestly I think that in post imp when gold is very low, the Byz bonus is over-rated. 2/3 of their units lose pretty heavily to most of their opponents, and the real king of trash wars, the Hussar, is missing BL and BF, and isnt discounted for them.
@Bambabah
2 жыл бұрын
@@CornBredCrusader Yup Byz is A-tier at best. They cannot withstand top tier hussar civs in really open maps. Different story in closed maps.
@hansoskar1911
2 жыл бұрын
i think people underestimate how good 25% discount leads to lower vil and higher army numbers which leads to better trades.
@spectre9065
2 жыл бұрын
You also have to consider WHICH techs they are missing. While Byzantine hussars miss 2 techs they at least have Plate Barding Armor. Armor for Hussars is the most important tech because it means the difference between taking 1 damage and 3 damage from fully upgraded Skirmishers. Halbs kill Hussars in the same number of hits anyway. Though I'm inclined to put Byzantines in A tier because Hussar is the most useful trash unit which was a factor in rating the Mesoamericans F tier.
@TheBikeOnTheMoon
2 жыл бұрын
I don't think S tier is the right place for them. They are A tier at best. 25% is nothing when their hussar is bottom tier.
@gmat4380
2 жыл бұрын
I think a tier list for Custom Campaigns could be a good video. I've been wanting to get some but don't really know which to start with.
@Xastor994
2 жыл бұрын
OMG yes This might be a really nice next step when the campaign tier list is complete
@chingamfong
2 жыл бұрын
Anything by Filthydelphia is good. Some of them are very hard but they are all good.
@StraightEdgeNexus
2 жыл бұрын
@@chingamfong or Bassi
@CornBredCrusader
2 жыл бұрын
I would have perferred a "in a low gold environment" tier list over a strict trash unit tier list, as you kind of covered it a bit in this video. A civ like Magyars is GOATED in low gold because they have 8 range cav archers, and their "meat grinder" unit is a better Hussar, also usable halbs (don't really need to be that fast for their intended purpose [to be mulch in front of their cav archers]) Compare that to Cumans where their trash is good, but their power units (Paladin) are going to die much quicker, so gold retention in your army is crucial in most actual 1v1s
@naraiceylob
2 жыл бұрын
It would definitely be interesting. Mongols is a better example though (as Magyars are already S tier).
@jonskog7263
2 жыл бұрын
I was under the impression that S-tier civs have also S-tier trash. But Franks, Huns, Mongols, Vikings, Aztecs, Gurjaras and Mayans being in the two bottom tiers is interesting. That means that a lot of best civs decide games before a drawn-out post-imperial trash war.
@Edelweiss1102
2 жыл бұрын
That's exactly the point, these civs all support a fast paced and aggressive play style. Franks have their berry bonus + chivalry extra HP Light Cav/Knight spam. Gujaras have extra berry bushes + ability to garrison herdables/fishing ships + extra damage cavalry. Mongols have their hunting bonus, Vikings have free Wheelbarrow/Handcart, Huns don't need houses and the list goes on. If you can win in Castle Age with pure pressure, it doesn't matter if your trash is bad.
@CornBredCrusader
2 жыл бұрын
"I would rather have Halb over Hussar" Me: Visibly digusted
@youcanthandlethetruth5433
2 жыл бұрын
Lmao fair enough
@tetrislunatic4290
2 жыл бұрын
Ornlu 2022 - "trash is not realy the strength of Bengalis" Tho what he really meant to say was "no strengths for Bengalis at all so ofc Trash sucks too"
@cmlcml415
2 жыл бұрын
No one can compete the 3+2 att without squires Gurjaras Spearman lol
@williamangga6164
2 жыл бұрын
Byz got S tier for their trash units is good enough for me. Very fitting as their 25% discount on trash unit is huge. They're known for their trash in this game after all. Byz is really well designed civ. Reflect it's irl counterpart in some ways but also balanced to fun to play. True that they're hard to dislodge though. As I am a byz main and like to drag the game into 1+ hours just spamming trash at opponent and it is still cost effective while building random building everywhere 11 oh also floating gold.
@IncredulousFox
2 жыл бұрын
Love the video. Mostly agree with everything, but i do think you undervalue hussars vs the other trash units. If given the option id much rather have fully upgraded hussars rather than fully upgraded skirms/halbs just because they have better utilty and are just the more efficient unit. Its really hard to seperate who has the best trash units vs who has the best post imp lategame and i think you did a good job. If it was a post imp late game tier list then spanish would be much lower. Tatars would be s-tier and turks would be much higher. Cav archer+hussar is just the best lategame unit combo in the game.
@ryanforgo3500
Жыл бұрын
Well, he failrd miserably on malians, the top 3 trash cavs in the game losing only to magyar huszars in 1vs1 and the only LC that can destroy a whole enemy base including castles because all hussars do 1 damage to castles but malians do 3-4"
@casusincorrabilis1584
2 жыл бұрын
interesting... For me it looks almost like Trash units have basically no influence on overall winrates (on open maps). From the 5 F-Tier trash Civs , 3 are considered S-Tier on Arabia. And the S-Tier Trash civs that are good on Arabia are mostly good because of their early game bonusses, not because of their Trash bonusses.
@hansoskar1911
2 жыл бұрын
well you reach the Trash stage of the game only if you already lived through Feudal, Castle, Early and post Imp. But having the superior Trash options usually dictates who needs to win before Gold runs out which is definetly an important dynamic in Imp fights.
@teddyhaines6613
2 жыл бұрын
I'm not the most accomplished player, but I've got at least 100+ Arabia 1v1s under my belt and I've literally gone to a trash war only once. Most Arabia games won't get there, especially below the pro level since mid and low-ELO players are so much worse at defending, myself very much included.
@sherlocksinha2435
2 жыл бұрын
This usually applies on closed maps where maps are easily walled off and a wall of attrition is quite common
@mubashirulmoula1798
2 жыл бұрын
3:00 - I wish Bengalis get a trash unit bonus, Spearman+Skirmishers +20% HP, as their gold units are trash.
@SM-bb4hx
2 жыл бұрын
That will be nice bonus for them. This will help them to survive in Castle Age and reach their Imperial army combo.
@mustahsinulmoula9035
2 жыл бұрын
Why you need to make Gold unit as trash as it is. Give viable gold unit, and that's it. You design a civ to be boom heavy and then give trash unit bonus, that doesn't make any sense
@mubashirulmoula1798
2 жыл бұрын
@@mustahsinulmoula9035 I'm not making their gold units trash. Devs did. They have good units in Imperial age but not in Castle age. My idea is making it easier to survive in Castle age.
@pavelh.4515
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Ornlu :) Can you do a tier list of the all civilization techs?
@Redragonclaws
2 жыл бұрын
You didn’t mention trash monks at all for bohemians.
@OrnLu_AoE
2 жыл бұрын
I remembered to a couple minutes later :)
@ThisIsMyRoad
2 жыл бұрын
How come Goths are not A though. Doesn't make sense to me. Decent Hussar, decent Skirms, and most importantly: best late game eco bonus (10pop) + a discount that makes them cheaper than Byzantine Halbs noticably. The best part of the creation time, Halbs regardless the civ, enjoy being massed, Perfusion allows you to always have units in the field and exhaust your enemy by sheer strength of numbers. They have Blast Furnace which matters more (than armor) when it comes to mass fights.
@einherjar8147
Жыл бұрын
Looking at the other civs he put in C-tier - especially Koreans - I don't know how Goths could belong there. Yes, they'd like to have a bit of gold for Champs or Huskarls, and yes, it's likely you never upgraded to E.Skirm before needing to start making them, but you have all the tools in the box, unlike most of the C-tier civs.
@spectre9065
Жыл бұрын
Goths are high B, possibly A. They have superior Halbs than Byzantines, fully upgrade skirms, and their Hussar isn't bad compared to some other civs. But Goths have crap siege and siege is important in trash wars too, so putting them on par with Byzantines is a stretch.
@konradpyszniak976
2 жыл бұрын
Poles almost never ends with no gold before your enemy in equel game. If we look at the civ: They gain gold by mining Stone, after szlachta privligies they dont have big Gold expensives, they have insane food Eco with folwark and on top of that they produce great wingded hussar. Even more If enemy stuck with trash units and as a poles you still has Gold then obuch will melt them all with very low Gold cost (20 from what i rememeber). Isnt the Point of trash war is to avoid it or delay as long as possible? Dont understand the argument for C tier.
@youcanthandlethetruth5433
2 жыл бұрын
Hahaha a Pole fighting for his civ. Gotta love the unashamed biasedness unlike the self hatred of Americans
@stefanandrejcik571
Жыл бұрын
This is iiterally thrash war tier list and you are talking about pre thrash war lmao, poles are c tier
@GoldenRoyal5
2 жыл бұрын
Wow another ornlu tierlist, what year is it? 2021?
@starocean8534
2 жыл бұрын
Could Bohemian be in B tier with their trash monks?
@teddyhaines6613
2 жыл бұрын
Everyone's been on about Hindustanis being "the only camel civ with halberdier" even though there's actually like half a dozen other civs with heavy camel and halb. But now they'll actually be unique in being the only civ missing plate mail armor that also misses halberdier. Otherwise, I feel like you may be undervaluing the Imperial Skirm a little. It upends the trash war dynamic with its extra attack effectively doubling its effectiveness vs +4 cav, so civs with only generic light cav can be left without a good answer once the Imp skirm numbers get out of control. I'd argue Vietnamese are A tier for that plus both of their other trash units being perfectly functional.
@timoschmonsees2652
2 жыл бұрын
When they say the only Camel civ without halb, they talk about civs that have some boni to camels like Berber, saracen, malians..., not about all civs with access to heavy camel.
@teddyhaines6613
2 жыл бұрын
@@timoschmonsees2652 And then they define "some bonus to camels" so narrowly it just becomes a huge reach. Byzantines have a cost discount for both camels and halbs, but now "camel civ" only means fully upgraded camels. Chinese have full upgrades on both camels and halbs and they research the techs more cheaply, but, um...those bonuses aren't specific enough to camels? This starts to feel like No True Camel Civ very quickly.
@timoschmonsees2652
2 жыл бұрын
@@teddyhaines6613 i get your Point, personally i would say camel civs are these that are FU plus a bonus that makes them better than regular heavy camels, but yeah its kinda wishy washy in regard to chinese, byz and tatars and one could also argue that malians and berbers arent camel civs but cavalry civs because their boni are also not Camel specific (except for maghrebi camel).
@fiable262626
2 жыл бұрын
When comparing Portuguese and Saracen market gold, Portuguese come out ahead with guilds due to their unit discount. Its like having market price of 21 rather than saracen 19z
@andrewneal2249
2 жыл бұрын
Persians on the surface are “S” tier. I feel like the argument to put them in “A” is the lack of strong eco.
@toggid
Жыл бұрын
Poles C tier, "you know nothing Ornlu the Wolf".
@erkocab
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting video -- wondering which of the S tier you think is the best?
@teddyhaines6613
2 жыл бұрын
Depends. I'd guess Byzantines are best for a closed map trash war like on Arena, while Magyars are the best for an Arabia trash war.
@jotdoc
2 ай бұрын
I would say he really underestimated the power of Druzhina. Having halbs with 5 dmg to adjacent units unmitigated by armor is quite a gamechanger. They should be A tier.
@micahbonewell5994
2 жыл бұрын
I would say Celts should be in C or B tier, as usually you mix siege into trash wars with the little gold you get from selling wood/food, and their siege is either the best or the one of the best. Edit: I would say Slavs should be in A tier, cause Druzhina imo is kinda broken in trash wars, not to mention their champion the trash unit killer is one of the best. Add in the discounted siege which you can mix in and I think there is even an argument for S tier. In general I wish you had added commentary about the champions and siege of these civs, cause of the both those units are quite key in trash wars.
@talmagejones
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Ornlu!
@churchofmagic3733
8 ай бұрын
I think you underestimate Incas in a trash war. Kamayuks are completely insane, able to take on three to four times their numbers in any other trash unit, at which point selling food and wood for gold at bottomed out prices works out for you
@inconemay1441
11 ай бұрын
Not having Pikeman makes Prithviraj 4 and 5 miserable when facing so many enemy cavalry
@akow2655
2 жыл бұрын
God I love watching tier list videos for games I don't even play! Thanks Ornlu!
@SM-bb4hx
2 жыл бұрын
You've overestimated Byzantines. They will be A tier for me. Same for Burmese. Their skirmishers is awful. I'll put them one tier down.
@StraightEdgeNexus
2 жыл бұрын
In late game, the armor trash wars the lack of armour doesn't matter. They're still bracer skirms good enough to counter halbs
@davidahrner4876
2 жыл бұрын
How is persians not S tier?
@trancemusic8805
2 жыл бұрын
Epic video ornlu
@messitup
Жыл бұрын
Why is goth C tier, if 25% from byz is S tier? doesnt goth get 35% discount on infantry?
@sherlocksinha2435
2 жыл бұрын
Vietnamese plus britons give you the furthest firing skirmishers. Outer ones will be Teuton halbs for extra armor . Mongols , Lithuanian,polish and Bulgarian hussars
@rovsea-3761
2 жыл бұрын
I do think you're underrating Bengalis slightly. In my opinion, they should sit at about the same level as Britons and Bohemians, as having fully upgraded light cavalry seems like fair compensation for missing the last armor upgrade on their infantry. Honestly, they're basically only 1 tech behind Chinese, and probably shouldn't be 2 whole tiers below them because of it.
@justincronkright5025
Жыл бұрын
It says HUMANS in the one 'Marker' not Cumans... I was so confused - like is this an ALIEN mod where all of the peoples/countries are the same, but they're not human except for a special human faction. Also about Vietnamese I think they're mid to low A tier, because so long as halberdiers can take down light cavalry for other civilisations. Then your more powerful skirmishers can usually do the damage they need against everything... extra damage overall & then a bonus versus spears You've essentially countred all 3 with only 2 units. And so overall the +1 damage & extra health are going to mean you essentially always win late game skirmisher wars except against the ridiculous genitour - especially in the hands of some civilisations!
@StraightEdgeNexus
2 жыл бұрын
A lot of C tiers should be D tier. FU or close to FU Hussar should be put B or above unless you're Turks or Gurjaras. Halbs and skirms without armor still perform their roles in trash wars but strong Hussars really put the major work in that scenario. From raiding eco to killing siege units and forming meatshield for your remaining gold ranged units, they're the backbone of the trash wars. Civs like Bohemians, Dravidians and Britons should be lower for their abysmal light cav
@scespinosab
2 жыл бұрын
HI ornlu,. Can you pass the link for the tier list you used. It handy that it has the civ names.
"Trash units are not the strength of the Bengalis" NOTHING is a strength of Bengalis.* *Yeah, good elephants, but elephants still suck even with their bonuses. They have good monk but only good monk will get them nowhere. Plus their monk isn't even top tier like Burmese or Aztecs.
@SM-bb4hx
2 жыл бұрын
Their monk will be top tier after the new patch when they will get free Orthodoxy.
@cmlcml415
2 жыл бұрын
Bengalis really is a lackluster civs, archer no thumb ring, infantry no final armor upgrade, cavalry (elephant) is basically generic one nothing special, so yup
@Voider6211
2 жыл бұрын
"This civ has no units, except vils" (Mbl, 2K22).
@youcanthandlethetruth5433
2 жыл бұрын
Bongos having great monks makes no sense irl. They can't convert shit those stupid bongos. Noone wants to be a slimey bongo
@vbw4551
2 жыл бұрын
Great list ornulu. Why don't you make a tier list based on age e.g. top 5 early imp civ, top 5 castle age civ etc.
@PolanaAnurag
2 жыл бұрын
That Yo vs Jordan Arabia game. 11 They ran out of wood. The cheaper skirms and halbs didn't really help yo.
@ivanstrydom8417
2 жыл бұрын
I look forward to seeing a Red Sun of Africa DLC that has a focus on infantry and skirm use. Congolese Empire Kanhem-Bornu Empire Kingdom of Zimbabwe/Mutapa/ Shona People Kingdom of Ghana Songhai Empire. Swahili Nubia 1.Kanhem-Bornu Empire. Castle Ribat UU:Murabitun - large shield carrying spearman , high pierce armour costs food and gold. Strong vs cav and archers but weak vs infantry and gunpowder. Unique tech 1: Dabbalemi reforms - Houses can train Barracks infantry cheaply but at a very slow rate . Unique tech 2: Cima - Houses gain +3 LOS and increases barracks + house training rate. Civ bonus 1:Civ always starts with cattle instead of sheep around the Town centre. Civ bonus 2. - Receive Guilds for free. Team bonus: Villagers can garrison inside Granaries(Mills) (New building) Full skirm line. Skirms get 100% accuracy from the start. If allied to the Turks, they gain the ability to train standard Jannisaries in the Ribat/ castle. 2.Kingdom of Zimbabwe/Kingdom of Mutapa/Shona people. Castle UU:Humbwa Axeman can gather food form livestock Unique tech 1: Mwene’s dzimba levies : Houses can be individually set to automatically train village guards or Skirmishers or Humbwa Axemen. Unique tech 2: Mapungubwe mortarless masonry/dzimba-dza-mabwe - all structures gain 20% more hp. Civ bonus:1. Houses automatically train village guard foot soldiers , these units train slowly and for free, once training is finished , x1 unit will be in the house ready to be deployed. Once the unit is manually deployed (By selecting a deploy button in the house,TC or Castle), the slow ,automatic training of the next unit will commence. Guard units to deploy as base protection. Or can be deployed to slowly create a free standing army. Training rate increases slightly with each consecutive age. Village guard can gather food form livestock as well but has half the health of Humbwa Axeman 2.Rhinos that spawn on the map automatically has 30% more food on them when collected by the Shona. 3.Gets fortified walls for free. 4.Arson is free. Team Bonus:Civs in the alliance Receive Elite Skirmisher for free. If ally has/grants access to Imperial skirmisher, alliance get Imp skirm free as well. Archery Range: Full skirm No archers Instead they get throwing club warriors. - does slightly less damage than archers / crossbow but does a slight amount of area damage (Good to counter mass groups of infantry/archers) Upgrade tech:Imbedded animal/fish teeth + 2 attack 3.Kingdom of Ghana UU: Levied bowmen - quickly lose hit points over time, which only stops when they have only 1 hit point remaining. Short range, looses multiple arrows and losses faster the closer the target is to the archer. Unique tech 1:Moro Nabas Mass Levies - Removes Levied Spearmen+Bowmen hit-point loss, allowing them to be used far from their original spawn point. Unique tech 2:Bush Camouflage - Levied bowmen gains a stealth ability when close to trees that only diminishes when attacking or within LOS of a defensive building. Civ bonus 1: Starting in dark age, houses can train levied spearman Levied Spearmen quickly lose hit points over time, which only stops when they have only 1 hit point remaining. Any damage taken after that will kill them, making them almost useless once this occurs. The Levied Spearman is automatically upgraded in every Age Civ bonus.2: Skirmishers have +4 attack bonus vs Vils. Team bonus: They get Imperial Skirmishers (Vietnamese Loses Imps skirm) Team bonus 2: Markets have +100 HP 4.Songhai Empire. UU:Yoruba Oyo Legionary - Very powerful, but slow training heavy spear / javelin infantry. Attacks closer targets faster. Carries a large shield for extra protection against ranged attacks. Good against cavalry. Unique tech 1: - (Cost gold + food) Skirmishers food cost replaced with editional wood. Unique tech 2: Outrigger canoes - Outriggers attached to the battle canoes provide stability +2 speed and + 30% HP to all canoes. Civ bonus:Griots Monasteries: Monk is replaced by a griot - It can heal injured units and intimidate enemies from range by using musical instruments to make them attack and heal slow. 5.Nubians.Kingdom of Nobatia, Makuria and Alodia. Archer/Monk civ UU: Archer of the eyes/Dessert archer - Bowmen with 100% accuracy and ballistics as standard. Unique tech 1: Reflexed Longbows - Adds +2 range to Dessert Archers. Unique tech 2: The bundle of golden arrows. Your enemies receive an invitation to become allied to you, if they accept, you become allies, if they refuse, then all your archers gain a discount of -20%. Civ bonus 1:If allied to Persia, Nubians gain access to African War elephants in the Castle. Civ bonus 2: Building Nubian Pyramids (Total of 5) (New building), decreases your population total by 5% and increases Monk conversion range when in the vicinity of a pyramid. Team bonus1:Faith+ Sanctity cost reduction 50% Team bonus2:Camels has added bonus damage vs enemy camels. 6.Swahili/ Kilwa Sultanate Naval/Trade/support civ UU: Swahili trade guards wazee (Ruling class) - Soldier armed with a shamshir that gains an HP and attack boost when in the vicinity of markets or Caravanserai (Owned or allied) Caravanserai is given to Persia as standard as well since they used the caravanserai the most. Unique tech 1:Kanga - Villagers +20HP+20% carry capacity Unique tech 2:Lateen sails - Fishing ships + trade cogs gain a considerable seed boost. If allied to the Byzantines,Lateen sails is obtained for free. Civ bonus 1: Advancing to each age provides x2 free fishing ships Civ bonus 2:Corral buildings - Buildings created within 10 tiles of the shoreline cost - 40% resources. Civ bonus 3:When allied to the Berbers the swahili gets the Genitor upgrade free in the Archery range. Team bonus1: Trade cogs cost -30% Team Bonus 2: Free coinage. When allied to the Berbers the swahili gets the Elite Genitor upgrade free
@Hunter-Bomar
Жыл бұрын
Hmm i think you should test poles against halbs after their trample damage tech. Because they can actually win against halbs if they are grouped up and numbers are equal.
@lucamarino1226
Жыл бұрын
Absolutely
@frankieseward8667
2 жыл бұрын
Do you have a siege tier list? Also remember calvary have relic bonus. Never mind. Doesn't apply to the Hussain.
@spectre9065
Жыл бұрын
Goths and Huns f tier
@Fenet2000
2 жыл бұрын
This is probably the tier list I agree with the least Byzantines are definitely not S Tier while lacking so many techs for helb and hussar. Head to head I even prefer Teutons over Byzantines Also I don't think that Lithuanians really fit anywhere above B Tier. Their helbardiers are some of the worst in the game with no BF and PMA and in skirmisher duels the extra pierce armour is completely useless since regular skirms with Ring armour already take only one damage from other skirms
@spectre9065
Жыл бұрын
Byzantine Halbs are objectively better than generic Halbs, that's not even a question. Lacking Blast Furnace doesn't matter much for Halbs because they have massive bonus damage to cavalry. 25% cheaper Halbs and Skirms means they have 4 for every opponent's 3. That's basically +33% damage and health. I agree that their Hussars aren't great. Better than Celt Hussars and roughly on par with Goths. All else considered, Byzantines are A tier.
@hansoskar1911
2 жыл бұрын
There is still the secret Trash Unit: The (Siege) Ram. Having or not has great rammifications about who can push. :P Even though Meso Trash kinda sucks without Horse option in fights vs other civs they alter the picture a bit bc they make opposing Halbs irrelevant. So it comes down to Hussar/Skirm Vs Halb/Skirm and that is bad for all the civs that have their best Trash in the Halb. Wootz Steel makes the Dravidian light cav suck a tiny bit less.
@Progeusz
2 жыл бұрын
Very good points. Long fights are less common nowadays so i suppose there's less recent examples but some years ago i remember there were a lot of games where Mayans and Aztecs did well in trash wars. Siege Ram push is really scary vs trash only army which takes ages to kill them. Mayans have longer lasting resources and super cheap main army (plumes are mini cav archers too in their ability to stay alive) so they usually still have gold available after others run out and Aztecs, thanks to their faster military production, can overwhelm the opponents with pushes.
@nicita27
2 жыл бұрын
watched this video while drinking my morning coffee. going to take a food dump now. at least d tier confirmed.
@JZ-wm2ov
Жыл бұрын
New best trash civ: Magyar with berbers ally. Those Magyar hussars and +1 attack +1 range fully upgraded genitours will destroy every trash army they encounter
@iviktorius9408
2 жыл бұрын
Would you consider yourself top tier trash or more like bottom tier trash?
@spectre9065
2 жыл бұрын
Goths is rated way too low. Thumb ring is negligible for Skirms so they are essentially fully upgraded. Their Halbs are better than Byzantine halbs because they are even cheaper and built lightning fast. Their only "bad" unit is their Hussar. Armor is the most important tech for Hussars but that doesn't drop them to C Tier. You also didn't mention siege units' role in trash wars. Most times you will be selling food and wood for gold to buy Rams. Since Goths have one of the worst Rams a case can be argued for B tier.
@TheKobasen
2 жыл бұрын
So halbs is the most important upgrade for trash war among other upgrades. Too bad for you Saracens..
@ayerev1202
2 жыл бұрын
wait skirms benefit from thumb ring??
@teddyhaines6613
2 жыл бұрын
They don't fire any faster, but their accuracy goes from 90 to 100%. So not a huge deal if you miss it really.
@fede4603
2 жыл бұрын
Does someone has the link to this tierlist? I can't find one with the 3 new civs.
Generic FU hussars are just insane of a unit, they are so good I would say they are between trash and gold power level.
@ryanforgo3500
Жыл бұрын
And yet they all lose easily to malians light cavs, and he ranked them at d tier. He does have some questionable list.
@churchofmagic3733
7 ай бұрын
I would put Bulgars in S tier, since 2handswordsmen with 9 melee armour obliterate hussars and halbs
@fabian2045
Жыл бұрын
Bulgarian two-handed swordsman counter every trash unit cost-effective and even population-effective
@Bambabah
2 жыл бұрын
You didn't account for anti-trash units like bagains or TK's (useful in a pinch). Bulgarians can clobber any civ you have in S-tier. Also what the heck is "anti-hussar civ"?? Poles are A-tier minimum, their hussars can steamroll any civ with non-FU halbs and even then... Magyars are slightly overrated, their only exceptional if they still have lots of castles remaining, still low S-tier though. Byzantines are overrated. They aren't better than any of the A-tier civs, except maybe cumans. Slavs are underrated. Infinite hussar spam + druzhina how the heck are they B-tier lol, they can stomp literally ANY civ regardless of that missing bracer lol. Nobody's really using all three trash units anyways unless you absolutely have to (almost unheard of) so it's WAY more important to have 1-2 REALLY strong units than having FU everything...
@MrTheQuestioner
2 жыл бұрын
It's as if you read my mind when deciding what kind of video to make!
@rovsea-3761
2 жыл бұрын
Koreans in C tier?!? Color me surprised xD I really think of them as one of the worst trash nations because they're missing so many upgrades on their Halbs and Hussars. Honestly I'd even put them behind Bengalis.
@spectre9065
2 жыл бұрын
They get fully upgraded Skirms and Blast Furnace is the least important tech for Halbs because they 3-shot generic Hussars anyway.
@lucamarino1226
Жыл бұрын
Malians and Malay deserve higher spot Malay especially I think s tier with trash swordsman
@SammyBoyy300
Жыл бұрын
Aztecs have good trash tho lol and Japanese Halbs are insane
@ryanforgo3500
Жыл бұрын
Holyf You have bo idea what you are talking😂 Malians light cavs are not "slightly stronger than hussars" they are literally miles ahead because hussars end up doing little to no damage after armor calculations vs most of the game's units. Not only that but also, malians light cavs beat generic hussars more often than not. Furthermore helberdiers in general take 6 dmg from a skirm hit. Malians pikemen take 4. So " skirms have bonus damage anyway" does not mean the pierce armor is doing nothing. i mean, they take half the damage, bonus or not. half the damage is half the damage lol. In total helberdier dies in 10 hits, malian pikemen dies in 16. So i don't know what to tell you other than you have no idea what you are talking about. I have never lost a high elo trash war as malians purely because of how malian light cavs not only can they raid, they can melt a tc with very few of them because they do 6 damage on a FU tc while hussars do 3. so no offense, but I have to say, you have no clue what you are talking about regarding those. I do agree on most of your list. Although you are wronf about byzantines buildings too because at the end game byzantines buildings are the strongest vs siege, the weakest vs normal troops. Low armor buildings are easy to break by trash. but if you rank malians at the c tier in a trash war i can't help but think you actually never really played them. The key thing to understand here, malians do not have weaker trash, malians have trash that's been altered in mechanism / power. The simple idea behind malian trash is this. Light cavs are transformed from meatshields "as in what hussars are" to less tanky more glass-like cannons. They are not much less tanjy than hussars but they do a lot more damage. While slaves fet stirups, stirups is useless vs average to high armor. Pikemen been altered as i mentioned above from an anti cav countered by skirms. To anti cavs not countered by skirms but countered by HELBS, yes weird pikemen countered by helbs but that's who they are, countered by infantry not ranged. Just to clarify my , 1- malians light cavs are the second strongest in the game in a kight cavs / hussars face off. In fact they destroy every single light cav / hussar EXCEPT for magyar huszar. And almost go toe to toe with stirups hussars but kill everything that stirups hussar can't kill. this is because hussars lower dmg is too bad as armor remove most of it and malians light cavs end up doing more than double the damage on average in most cases" "minimum of 40% ish more damage than hussar vs 3 melee armor. Where hussars do 8 damage and malians do 11. Against 4-6 total armor hussars become impossible to use including stirups where malians and magyars become the only useful cavs in the game. 2- Malians pikemen are TERRIBLE vs paladins or cavaliers. But they are one OF the best trash war spear-lines PURELY because they take 1 damage+ bonus damage from skirms. While other spearlines take almoat double that making malians spear-line the only spear line that cannot be countered easily by skirms and has to be countered by spears. 3- their skirms missing bracers, it is not the greatest but they do what they are needes for. As in when you have malian pikemen being almost unkillable by skirms but enemy helbs can kill malians pikemen. So it is unusual that the pikemen are anti skirm but weak vs helbs. That's where malian skirms balance things out. Where the dsmage difference between malian pikes and generic helbs is covered bt the damage taken difference vs skirms. That's simply to say, malian pikemen sre twice as strong vs skirms, half as strong vs helbs. So it isnot weaker, just not the same unit as a tyoical helb/pikemen anymore. And so the end result is you have a light cav that can beat all hussars and melt skirms, easily top 3 end ga me trash cavs. AND they are the only scout-line that can melt buildings and enemy units to do what hussars can't. An anti skirmisher spearline that does what no other spearline can but loses to thr other spearkines in fsce off . and a decent enough skirm. In fact, 40-50 malian light cavs can take down a castle VERY fast. While 60 hussars will spend forever hitting it and end up all dead " hussars do 1 damage to castles, malians do 3-4 at least" Same story vs any building really.
@settingsun3470
2 жыл бұрын
Why do you say it as guh-jurs
@OrnLu_AoE
2 жыл бұрын
Because my Indian viewers have told me that is the correct way to pronounce the civ
@xeryus3357
10 ай бұрын
@@OrnLu_AoE Khmer is pronounced Khumai
@ivanstrydom8417
2 жыл бұрын
I hate that the Byzantines whom had such a strong economy that they could afford some of the best/strongest soldiers in their professional military, but in game they are forced to use ''trash''/non gold units that are cheaper. I really need to see the following alteration in game: Please give us regional/civ accurate unit skins for all the B,A,S units. Either as a purely visible mod/addition or as standard. Add Burning oil as a generic tech for most civs to the university. (Increases defensive arrow fire from castles + 4 attack against rams.) As well as add Tracking,and Cartography back into the game. (More techs and complexity adds more fun adds more small elements to learn and master.) I'd much rather have the Persians or Byzantines get Free HC and Free WB. To me, vast empires such as the Persian Empire and the Byzantine Empires (Bordering the Fertile Crescent) should have an eco focus since their administration of their vast empires were so good. Where ''lesser'' Empires and Kingdoms situated in cold , barren regions that focused more on raids like the Goths and Norse should have a unit focus such as Cheap infantry (Goths) and cheap trash + Beserks slowly generate gold when attacking buildings. (Vikings) Vikings. We need a completely new architecture set for the Vikings (That resemble their beautiful Norse church wonder) The main emphasis is on the long boats and their over use of Arbs, the rest are not to important and can be left as is. Have Vikings lose free hand cart + lose Arbalerster but instead they get Halbedier,(NB!) have their longboats be able to attack as well as transport units (Infantry/vils/monks/kings only) (loses transport ships but they have non attacking Longboats in feudal age.) and gift them cheap trash units Halbs + strong Angon Skirmishers.They could also give the berserkers a new trait that allows them to accumulate Food or Gold when damaging an enemy building thus aiding in their ecco in an accurate and interesting way. Castles cost change to 450 stone and 300 wood (Wood castles have lower HP) OR... Since they get Halbs change their unique tech Chieftains to allow Beserks to be made in TCs even after all castles have been lost. I’d enjoy raiding coastlines and rivers using longboats to transport infantry and Angon skirms to the shores of my enemies. I'd say give them other buffs to help in the late game, for instance to have their eco speciality exchanged with the Byzantines speciality. The Vikings came from a cold, barren mountainous/fjord covered boggy area, Norway,Sweden,Scandinavia where agriculture was highly difficult to maintain, thus their focus was on fishing, but as their culture and cities grew, it became a necessity to raid other shores/peoples in order to survive and thrive. Thus they started to use their brilliant longboats to conquer the northern seas and raid countless European and Mediterranean kingdoms. So I was wandering, why the devs gave the Vikings (Which literally mean Raiders) such a strong economy by means of free handcart and wheelbarrow? Where the Byzantines/Persians are famous for already having a well established society and Empire by the time of the Middle ages (They had wheelbarrow even before the Western Roman empire fell), with a professional standing army and immense economy and trade. (For such a strong wealthy Empire, why do they have to focus on Trash units in game?) For me, the two civs will be perfectly compensated to have those two traits switch. The Byzantines get an ecco upgrade like free wheelbarrow and the Vikings get cheap trash units. Now, combine that with Viking Wood architecture Castles: Castles cost change to 450 stone and 300 wood (Wood castles have lower HP but they can create a lot more of them due to less stone cost) OR... Since they get Halbs change their unique tech Chieftains to allow Beserks to be made in TCs even after all castles have been lost. That will always allow Vikings to create Beserkes in large numbers and have cheap Halbs and Angon/Frakka skirms to back them up throughout the game and into the late game. (Celt skirms also need a buff)No need for arbs. Then you take your Berserks+ trash , get onto your longboats and go Viking/Raid the enemy shores. (Without wasting wood nor pop space on Transport ships) They could also give the berserkers a new trait that allows them to accumulate Food or Gold when damaging an enemy building thus aiding in their ecco in an accurate and interesting way. Peasant:’’If Vikings lose arb they will be useless in imp. FALSE!!!!! Proof: kzitem.info/news/bejne/y3qazXWasXZzi6Q Watch both the 1st and 2nd games. VIKINGS SHOULD LOSE ARBS!!! Byzantines. In turn have Byzantines lose Hand cannoneer, bombard cannon and bombard tower , [to have them not become intensely OP and these forms of warfare was much more used by their neighbours (Italy) and enemies (Turks)].(If WB+HC goes to Persia then no need for Byzantines to loose gunpowder) Trash becomes more expensive and Imp becomes more expensive but Civ gets free wheel burrow and free hand cart. (For even when they were still the Eastern Roman empire, they already had WB+HC) Byzantines get a unique tech in the Feudal age barracks: Justinian Reforms - Sword line +1 Melee or Pierce armour from castle age. (Optional) Enables the technology of Varangian Guard from the Feudal age. In Feudal age , Byzanitne army (As well as Viking allies) gain access to a special unit in the Barracks called the Varangian Guard. - Expensive , slow moving but difficult to convert with a limited build amount. Since the Byzantines are a Defensive civ, the Varangian Guards can have a high attack boost when in the vicinity of a TC or Castle but outside a certain radius from these buildings the VG should lose the strong attack bonus and just be as strong as a normal Man at Arms/Long Sword/Champion. (Highly loyal guards of the Emperor) To defend against early rushes , but since they are expensive,slow and limited, you will have to think strategically as to when and where to deploy/station them. Unique Castle techs remain Logistica. Greek fire - Fireships damage adjacent ships. (Loses the useless+1 range buff) Please give Byzantines Camel trade carts and a proper architecture something like this will be perfect: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1275323988 since 80% of their empire and trade stretched across the deserts of Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa. Byzantine ships should also acquire beautiful coloured Lateen sails.
@alexanderstoyanov7464
2 жыл бұрын
It's kind of sad that all American civs are very bad in trash wars
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