such a great video, michael! we're so grateful for you
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@AntonioRockGP
Жыл бұрын
I tried all digital for 3 years. The tone was good! I'm back to a full halfstack on stage. But it's purely for my performance pleasure, this way the performance is much more inspired. I still think the amp should be on stage interacting with the guitar. I use feedback a lot to sustain notes and I can feel the amp's response to pick attack and that changes and inspires my performance. Also, I've tried the silent stage solution, also for 3 years, with digital emulation and IEM. The FOH sound is definitely more controled. But the performance is not as inspired and I feel disconnected from the crowd and the whole live experience. I prefer a slightly messier FOH sound of it means the musicians can feel the live vibe and the crowd, delivery a much more inspired performance. Having said that, in certain styles the silent stage works great! Pop, soul, Jazz, etc... I just don't feel its a solution that fits together with the rock/metal vibe
@funfreq9282
Жыл бұрын
ASI IEM's!
@AntonioRockGP
Жыл бұрын
@@funfreq9282 very expensive! And it's a solution for a problem I don't have if I go amp and wedge monitoring...
@funfreq9282
Жыл бұрын
@@AntonioRockGP A good pro wedge EAW, Meyer will cost an easy 2K. If your just talking prosumer stuff then yeah the ASI solution would be a little more by comparison. I was referring more to the flexibility of the ASI and how it allows you to hear and control ambient sound and not cut the musician off from the rest of the group in a silent stage environment which you mentioned.
@AntonioRockGP
Жыл бұрын
@@funfreq9282 normally the wedge is the sound crew or venue property. I don't even think about it. Besides, I don't need much on it, it's usually just a little bass keys and vocals, low volume
@danarcotta1283
Жыл бұрын
Absolutely, I'm totally uninspired with digital, I want my amp and a wedge on stage. I can feel the whole band and the audience feedback
@Espresso101
Жыл бұрын
What i like most about this video that separates it from most, is that you not only give your thoughts on what you're observing, but you asked the band member and the FOH engineer for their thoughts too. That gives a much more complete perspective.
@jimmyjams1974
Жыл бұрын
I have used amps and digital. All great tools. I’m back to a Princeton and a few pedals. Just enjoy more
@WorshipGuitarResources
Жыл бұрын
Great insights! E is a great player and I think his analysis was spot on. There’s definitely something present with amps.
@albertplaysguitar
Жыл бұрын
Such a good video. What's most interesting to me is that these amps are off-stage, so it's not about air being pushed. Yet real amps made a difference.
@steveeckert8396
Жыл бұрын
Its still about pushing air. With the amps backstage, the stage volume is still low. Back in the 80's even though the stacks were on stage alot of guys had a miced twin reverbs backstage and the stacks were merely props.
@ZodiacGallery
Жыл бұрын
I originally ran a stereo wet/dry/wet rig with a Fender Deluxe and a Roland JC-40. Upgraded later to a Mesa Boogie Mark V:25. I had a huge issue with dirty power playing shows in the PNW, stopped using my Mesa Boogie, switched to an iridium, and have only had issues with inexperienced sound engineers (wherein a band we were playing a show with saved my bacon by allowing me to use their Traynor amp.) I'm using my Iridium (first Vertex nyle pre/comp + Wampler Tumnus deluxe & 1981 DRV) for dreampop (cleanliness for stereo delay, mod, and verb) and portability, while using a Mesa to track and jam at home. I would love to have a stereo rig again, thanks for showcasing how you're pulling it off on the road.
@ORFisHome
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating! I love production discussions like this. Thanks, Michael, and congrats on the great tech'ing gig with Elevation.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@lukebogartmix
Жыл бұрын
I think modelers are still the answer more often than real amps for most people and situations. Real amps are now and will be a LUXURY, that I believe to enjoy their advantages, you have to have the capability to take care of their downside effectively. Maintenance, repairs, consistent mic'ing, ability to isolate and maintain tone at desired master volume, consistent clean power, less portable for travel, etc. Obviously a large scale team like Elevation or Bethel will be able to travel and maintain these multi-thousand dollar amp setups (and even then still have issues), but that's not the case for most people. It's tough for the average person, especially gigging musician, to justify all the extra hassle it takes to enjoy the small sound/feel advantages in real amps in live scenarios. Even as an audio engineer alongside being a guitarist/drummer, I couldn't see myself spending thousands on a nice stereo amp setup, when I can get 95% of the sound from my $500 HX Stomp that lives in a few inches of my pedalboard, where one day I can feel like using a VOX and Hiwatt through matching cabs, and another a Dumble and a Fender going through V30 loaded Mesa cabs. I think it comes down to if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility of tube amps, then go for it!
@TrumpetsInMy4x12
Жыл бұрын
Used amps for years. Then switched to modelers. For years. In a band mix with another guitar player using a traditional amp; there was a lack of presence and instrumental weight comparatively. Not volume so much as just representation throughout the frequency spectrum. Grabbed an amp and found myself fitting into the mix MUCH better. I am still using some digital tools in my rig but the amp is doing most of the heavy lifting and I like the experience a lot more because of that fact.
@robertmurray1104
Жыл бұрын
I have been using real amps and modelers on and off for a few years. As a guitar player I love the way real amps feel and sound. I actually have found the tones that I love through a modeler. I also work a a audio engineer. I totally agree with Cory’s thoughts on how you can ironically push real amps in a mix harder. For whatever reason real amps sit in mix better to my ear. but if I wasn’t a guitarist, I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the two tonality wise in a mix.
@noizewriter3324
Жыл бұрын
When I'm not playing guitar for my church I run sound a lot and we use amps with ox boxs and even then I noticed that when we use Mics the guitars cut through even more and is always in the mix.
@jameswatson5576
Жыл бұрын
We set up real amps (silent) on stage with a separate micced cab room at our midsized church. Long speaker cables work so much better than long instrument cables for us, too much treble loss and no control of the amps for the musicians. Initial amp dialing in and sound check go so much better this way (in ears). We have tried Ox Box, Tonemaster, Kemper and HX Stomp amp sims with guest musicians and can definitely notice the negative differences in certain areas. Namely the better clarity and depth of the micced tube amps which is most noticeable in the decays of overdriven sounds and trails of the wet effects. There seem to be more of these types/styles of sounds in worship music along with the constant dynamic changes in bridges and verses. The other benefit is that this clarity is mostly in the midrange frequencies that are so crowded on a church stage with keys and vocals, so it can really clean up a live mix.
@bobrg1459
Жыл бұрын
I use both. The amp/pedal approach is better sounding and feeling to me but the are scenarios (such as silent stage) where it is impossible. I think the modeler gets you 85% of live amps but it is more convenient for short sets and is silent.
@thomaschilds8781
Жыл бұрын
Would be interesting to see if they could get 90% of the way there with analogue solid state amps, something like a Peavey Bandit? How much of the feel is coming from having a speaker cone pushing real air, being picked up by the mic? More event to event reliability and consistency, less weight etc.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Great players sound great through anything right?!
@frankmarkowinstructionalvi8863
Жыл бұрын
Was using the UAD OX box for the last year for recording, which sound great by themselves. But I went back to real amps recently, like the tone better, find they sit so much better in the mix, I can hear each guitar more distinctly, no build up of mid range yuk. And maybe its just in my head, but they just sound more "real" to me. Yes, it's more work, and I can't play at night. But the end result is definitely worth it. Now I just have to work on my mic technique...
@nekkon1989
Жыл бұрын
I play praise and worship music in Greece but the sounds that I use are hardly ever overdriven. Like, clean most of the time and then sweet overdrive for a lead solo. I find that in situations like mine the amplifiers are not an overkill because I don't have to run them crazy loud to get a nice tone. I believe the volume problem with amplifiers is there mainly when you have to use distortion. That being said, I find that for clean guitar tone, maybe even using tube amplifiers is an overkill, because for most settings I can get a very usable clean tone out of a Boss Katana.
@JulianDaniels
Жыл бұрын
I play both, my Axe FX for recording and practising at home, my ENGL Savage Mk. II for live. I still love the response and the fullness of my tube amp. And I'll never switch to a digital solution for live situations!
@jakesmith4506
Жыл бұрын
Hello, Thanks for the great video. I am always impressed by a great sound tech. This means that using a modeling amp can be a wonderful thing for performances. I'm in the Detroit area. Unfortunately, in Detroit we have an army of 'Helen Kellers' here when it comes to sound techs. Yes, there are a handfull of techs that are superb, and in high demand. Getting a good one at a medium to small size venue is somewhat of a challenge. (nightmare) I do happen to have a Positive Grid Bias Amp 2. It's great. Unfortunately, there aren't many techs in town that I could trust with bringing out the proper sound at Front of House. Personally, I think that great sound techs need more recognition for the great sound you bring to audiences around the world. Keep up the great work.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Thanks! Yeah, a great engineer will make or break it - especially when running direct.
@Chucksguitargeekery
Жыл бұрын
My favorite way to setup (granted, small bar gigs) is to have a modeler, but split the signal so a modeled sound goes to the PA, but a non-modeled sound goes to a small amp on stage for monitoring (usually a 5 watt tube amp). That way I get the feel of the tubes and can get feedback when I want it, but the FOH gets a clear signal with no mic bleed.
@millman82
Жыл бұрын
I always used real amps. Then I got a Fractal FM3. Followed by a FM9 Turbo. I’m completely satisfied with the Fractal modelers! If it is good enough for Def Leppard, Periphery, Bush, Metallica, and so many more it is good enough for me. Also, of their models that I have compared directly with the real mic’d Amp counter parts are completely indistinguishable.
@Kumacidefpv
Жыл бұрын
Profiling with a Kemper is even better
@millman82
Жыл бұрын
@@Kumacidefpv I don’t have amps that I want to profile. However, if I did I’d use ToneX on a pedalboard. There have been some wonderful comparisons between the profilers and ToneX sounds the best. That being said… Kemper sounds just fine in a mix. Recently saw Sevendust live and they used Kempers and sounded great!
@94SexyStang
Жыл бұрын
honestly those bands have Shit tone....Lol.....yes metallica has a pretty dull shit tone, like it or not, they do.
@TAM-gz5tc
Жыл бұрын
I USE ALL AMPS BUT LATELY HAVE BEEN USING 2X80 W ROLAND CUBES WITH 2X 1X12 CABS WITH SAME SPEAKERS. SUPER FLEXABLE,GREAT SOUND.
@steviesfv7782
Жыл бұрын
Iso Cabs Randall used for $300. Replace with a Fane 12". Keep the lid cracked to let it breath. I have three. Mic it with a AEA R92 and a original SM57 . Chunk for days, not just anemic fizz.
@dustinthiessen
Жыл бұрын
I'm mainly a FOH engineer, but I do play guitar as well.... The biggest thing I notice between modellers and amps, is that dialling in a modeller depends so heavily on the monitoring situation of whoever's doing that, and there's so much more to dive into than an amp typically that results can vary massively. If somebody's plugged into a good amp, chances are it's gunna sound good. 9 times out of 10 I have to do some pretty drastic EQ moves to modellers, where as amps it's high pass, and maybe a couple small EQ moves to get it to sit just right in the mix
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I think it can be tough to dial in modelers sometimes. To many options can leave you not knowing which way is up time wise
@Espresso101
Жыл бұрын
Yes, as someone that does FOH as well, I find myself doing the same thing you just described
@surfthejapstrat7010
8 ай бұрын
For a quick and easy setup live, I’m good with my pedalboard into a pushed clean setting on a katana then using the record out to the board.
@howlinwaters
Жыл бұрын
i play on a worship team w/a guitarist who has a $3500 amp modeler, & i use a Fender Deluxe mic'd. The amp modeler is good for all the spacious, dreamy sounds, but it doesn't rock. It sounds like an overcompressed, giant transistor radio when turned up loud. The Deluxe is definitely a fuller, more robust sound onstage.
@theaaronimal
Жыл бұрын
Wow! Such a great video! Very informative. Thanks!
@davezoradi
Жыл бұрын
Question and thoughts: if the hypothesis for the differences comes from speakers moving air + the width of amps, why not run the QC into a solid state power amp into two cabs? If the captures are the same tone wise and the real goal is to get more space in the mix from the air moving why not find a hybrid solution? My thoughts: It seems to me that players are getting hung up on the extremes of either end in the amp vs modeler debate when there is space to explore different hybrid methods. I would suggest trying to send the different amp captures to unique outputs of the QC and turn off the IR or cab emulator within the patch, then run a two channel power amp with each side getting each of the amp captures. Then send those into any specific cab desired for moving air and getting the similar stereo field.
@indisguiseFUCK
Жыл бұрын
For me it has always been back and forth. Started out on a Marshall JCM 900 stack, which I would later use with a POD 2.0 via its return input. Great tones either way. Then back to tube amps for a long time, after that for a Metal band a Tech21 GT2 into the return of said JCM. Ferocious sound! Later came a Kemper, which saved me headaches on countless gigs, then a Princeton Reverb Blackface, then I added an Iridium as an ampless option, which I later switched to a UAFX Dream and Ruby. And both can be enhanced/flavored with some analog preamp pedals from Origin Effects (Magma57 and Deluxe61, both amazing!). So these days I would use whatever the gig calls for and get great tones either way. I'm going to check out the Simplifier MK2 as well, just to see if there's an improvement in feel with an all analog solution vs a digital one. Really, these days it's just up to your preference. Most of the audience doesn't care whether you're playing the cheapest modeler or a miked up Dumble ;)
@FoofyNoo
Жыл бұрын
I use a Kemper into two Fender Hot Rods. This gives me the versitility of the modeller and the warmth and thump of the tube amps. For me, it's the perfect solution. I find it a bit odd that people keep on discussing this as an 'either/or'. Use both ....
@mikebush3834
Жыл бұрын
Yea, ive been using an FM3 for a while and i recently got a two notes torpedo live for my mt-15 and 6505. One thing to keep in mind with modelers is that modelers replicate the signal chain of a mic, cab, and amp. Its not the in the room sound. That being said, the fractal fm3 gets farty when im doing palm mutes so i started looking for alternatives. I recently got 2 neural dsp plugins, the granophyre and abasi. I also got ggd zilla cabs for my torpedo live. The plugins are ok but for me the best tones i get are from a real amp into my two notes into zilla cabs
@federicolopezmusic
Жыл бұрын
The comb filtering in that hallway must be insane
@deangelisstudio1
Жыл бұрын
Victory Kraken Floor amp for me IRs are great and can use a small can onstage
@addzmilner4271
Жыл бұрын
I personally have used Line 6 since there Ax2 212 range, when I started touring in my early 20's I moved to a Pod X3 live to keep costs down when flying from the UK and not once did I have a complaint about tone and the sound guys loved it 😅 The more I got into pedals the more I felt I'd like to try a hybrid setup so I purchased a broken 1970's Laney Klipp which I got up and running and now use a Two Notes Captor to still have that silent setup, the biggest difference is the valve amp just takes pedals so much better (I'm a fuzz guy) and I know modellers have caught up but I really love that organic amp sag feel I wasn't really getting from the modelling rig
@marksaulnier2222
7 ай бұрын
I convinced myself to buy a Line 6 Helix and try it out in both a band setting and at home practice. Despite hearing the same tube amps will be replaced predictions since the 90s and learning those predictions are as old as the 1960s. After watching so many reviews, I thought this moment in time would finally prove the predictions true. I walked in the store, played it for hours and was completely underwhelmed. I didn't buy it. The store manager asked about the tube amps I own, then subsequently laughed and said, "yeah, these digital devices don't come close to replacing those amps". That's not to say they digital stuff doesn't have its place in the market. But IMO, like every new gadget ever released, the capabilities are a bit over sold.
@alvarofelipe_sepu
7 ай бұрын
This is a very interesting video. Thank you for doing it. Undoubtedly a great topic for guitarists today.
@Johnnybananass-_
Жыл бұрын
My theory , using both myseld and as a tech on bands tours is this, A tube amps eq range of output changes across the length of the note played, and is affected by your picking dynamics, where as a modeller has less reactive parts inside so always sound like a fixed eq output., eg if you look on a RTA a tube amps read out fluctuates but a modeller seems to hit all the pre programmed EQ points then just fades in unusion. there's something ina. way a tube charges and discharges as it does its job that makes the amps sound more lively in a certain way, but modellers are more of a snapshot in time, well that's my theory. I have a few tube amps a JC120 and been through the axefx2 , headrush and kemper and now settled on the tonex which I find almost a perfect amp modeller but still not good enough to sell my tube amps
@albertplaysguitar
Жыл бұрын
I gig every weekend... wife sings incredibly (think Adele, Amy winehouse, classic rock, soulful singing), I am a one man band... drums with my feet (cajón/Roland drum module rig), guitar and pedal magic. I have a modeler go through the PA (includes wet effects pedals), and an amp with more of the dirt pedals going through. Having a real amp (mind you, I use a solid state amp), makes a huge difference. But it's the mix that is greater than the sum of its parts.
@davidpeterson8431
Жыл бұрын
It's all splitting hairs really at this point. After miles of cables and all the pedals, I really think a lot of it is in your head (our head as it were).
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
It can be very situational I think. Some scenarios the differences are more/less noticeable.
@NoCoverCharge
Жыл бұрын
Completely disagree
@Aaron-vf5xm
Жыл бұрын
Agreed. Loved my tone out of my modeler just as much as any other high end amp I’ve played
@stevieknighten
Жыл бұрын
Totally agree. Especially with IEMs and amps that are smothered in delay and reverb 😂
@jlindsay0709
Жыл бұрын
There is probably some confirmation bias going on as well. I really think if you did a double blind a test you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Especially dialing in on the modeler if you use “virtual mic” and move them so they sound the same as the amp and a bit of eq. Tonejunkies has a good video on the sound of all the modelers. Playing them back to back. I will say the QC I wasn’t impressed with it. With that said I haven’t touched professional live sound in a very long time. Been a long time since I’ve mic up amps. So my opinion is based off playing a ToneX pedal in my bedroom with headphones. Making my opinion worth very little 😂
@211squirrel
Жыл бұрын
I got an HX Stomp in 2019 and I’ve never truly been satisfied with it as an amp replacement vs my real amps. I just updated it, and I’m liking it more for sure, but I still like my amp better. For the record I’m using a Tone King Majesty that doesn’t have the attenuation circuit. The amp has a complexity that the Stomp just doesn’t have, particularly in the cleaner stuff
@Samueldonovan2007
Жыл бұрын
I’m using a an iridium and when he said “the width of it” I finally got a word for what I’m feeling haha I love the sound and I just play at one service every once in awhile so it makes sense for me not to spend a ton of money for me
@NickGranville
Жыл бұрын
I use both: a fractal AX8 and real amps (I have 2 Victoria’s, vintage fenders, boogies etc). The real amps do sound better, as was said in this video, they’re more dynamic, open, complex in the bottom end, and saturate in the mid range in a pleasing way. But also, where I’ve noticed the biggest difference is when you stack sounds with modellers it falls apart, where as amps blend in a different kind of way. But then touring is way easier with a modeller, esp if fly dates. Both have uses
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Absolutely! Love this
@arturoybarra448
Жыл бұрын
Im a Guitarist since many years ago, for me the combination off both is a good solution...
@billschmidt3984
Жыл бұрын
Bad IRs are a big part of that blanket feeling. Like pickalot said Eq is the difference. Set your modeler up next to your amp and eq. You may be surprised.
@adamswanson8216
4 ай бұрын
No doubt I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but truly, I think you could solve a lot of your concerns about the Tube amplifiers by just buying an attenuator. They’re very available and I have certainly been using them for years and I don’t think that I will ever change I guess at 50 years old I will always use Tube amplifiers, but I have never had an issue of making anyone uncomfortable because I have always, the volume and certainly I have been a big investor in attenuators for many years and having master volumes installed on amplifiers even before they were available I know that the future certainly dictates, digital and yes, some people love the Fidelity and Sound. I just don’t think personally I have ever gotten the full experience in a bar or on a stage playing that I get out of a two bath and certainly not in a church either, I use an AC 20 when I play at the church and it’s also an app I use for practice, but it has a built-in power feature and amplifiers and can’t see because I am blind. What kind of amplifiers you did use but I tell you for two to fail the first day is pretty terrible, I have a Friedman Shirley. I’ve been using for eight years and a buck and Betty for six neither have been serviced and they are worked five days a week on average not to mention I’d teach lessons with them 40 hours a week on top of rehearsals and the gig, I don’t know, but these are just not the problems I’ve ever had in my life. I guess I’ve been blessed, but I’ve also made sure to buy the very best available when I’m buying so I guess it depends on finance. I would rather save and get the amplifier that will last me 10 years without a service issue, then take any chances and certainly digital offers that at a lower price. I don’t know the argument can go either way I think each player has to choose their path, but I do like your communication skills. I like your evaluationand I wouldn’t mind working with you because you seem great. I wish some of the text I worked with had your attitude and at least cared about what the artist thought. Usually the artist has to be the aggressor in order to get their point across so congrats good video. 2:20 2:23 2:25 2:27 2:30 2:31
@greevar
Жыл бұрын
The argument between digital, solid state, and tubes has been settled. There is no difference, only flawed human perception. When you play a loop through each and record it, the perceived differences vanishes in an a/b test. People are just trying to justify the money they spent. Tone comes from EQ circuits, pedals, speakers (especially the speakers), and mics. It's not the tubes, it's not the pickups, it's not the wood. The future is digital and solid state. They're cheaper, more convenient, and reliable.
@wanndann4592
3 ай бұрын
Not tue! Nothing can beat the "feel"and the physical strongness of a Real tube Amp...I am not talking about sound...modelers do sound fantastic...but is not about sound or loudness...I am talking about the physical feel on stage.....
@claytongouin5605
Жыл бұрын
Been a Kemper user since the Stage unit came on the market. Mostly because a band mate was already using a Kemper and the convenience factor for haul in, set up, and sound check was unparalleled compared to my massive pedal board, amp, cab, and all the cables. Few of the profiles I've been able to make have been nearly identical to the real amp and signal chain, and the Kemper certainly struggles to accurately profile some of my amps and pedal combinations, so I tend to use real amps or tube preamps with a digital power amp emulation when recording. But, even though the Kemper is not always accurate, if the sound is good enough it is good for live. I'm yet to have an audience member come up and tell me that our live sound was bad because it was digital. Truthfully, most audience members don't know or don't care how accurate a profile is or is not, as long as you play tight, fit into the mix, and entertain them. This extends to all amps or modellers - the audience doesn't generally care about your gear or your tone. That really helped me to see the other benefits a modeller provides over a tube amp for live playing, even if I would still personally prefer a tube amp and 412 on stage with me.
@rhymeskill
Жыл бұрын
Why not just use a Captor X and IR or the UA Ox?
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
That is a great option. One artist I’ve been working with uses the OX boxes and they sound great!
@JuanMotta
Жыл бұрын
The thing here is the musician perspective, when You mic the tube amp, the engenier have to cut all the frecuencies that the musician what of the tube amp like the sub low or the extra highs, is the way to Make a live band sound grate, if You use the tube amp For monitoring of course is going to be mucho better than the modeler but For the audience i doubt they can spot the tube or the modeler.
@gilguajardo7808
Жыл бұрын
Interesting! Michael, are the captures they are/were using in the QC’s of these same amp/mic/mic-position combos? You’d really want that to be the case to have a legit comparison, eh?
@SloppyGoat
Жыл бұрын
I used to be all about tube amps, and I wouldn't even consider solid state. But digital is catching up. I'm not ready to make that jump, though. A few digital pedals, but not digital amps/modelers. However, I did accidentally figure out that a 1200W Peavey XR 8600 PA head is freaking excellent, with a pair of Mesa Boogies. So, that is solid state, but it's hard not to love 1200 freaking watts of clean power. The good side of that is, I can play at lower volume, and it still sounds great. While the Boogies do need to run in the red, to get that real sound.
@Chotu_Rishi_Guitarist
10 ай бұрын
Wow They Sound Fantastic............ However I wonder what kind of a guitar noise on earth is at 3:08
@Shashli4ok
Жыл бұрын
Love this video! But anyway I have to use modeler in my church, or it Might get loud.😅
@evangodzilla9648
Жыл бұрын
What song was that at 3:10? It’s sounds angelic!
@GraeMcCullough
Жыл бұрын
Love this! Thank you for doing this vid. Question: I love using QC drive captures within the ecosystem of the QC, but have not had good results when running QC drive captures into real amps. I lost a lot of level and the captures seemed to lose their character and sound homogeneous. Do you know if these guys are doing anything special to get the drive captures to behave well into their tube amps?
@electricj5
Жыл бұрын
Why not just use the real analog drives?
@rochestermusicschool7629
Жыл бұрын
I've just sold my quad cortex.picked up a tone x and the captures are more accurate. also it takes pedals exactly the same as the real thing. I do have some awesome real amps but gigging in London I can't take my Marshalls really on the tube
@soonstudio101
Жыл бұрын
What not use iso box to contain the loud amps?
@pcanarsky
Жыл бұрын
Great video Michael!!!
@ivanhuanca9082
Жыл бұрын
Great stuff, keep it. We need real amps with real guitars and real guitarrist 😊. Don’t get me wrong I use digital too and it’s very functional but a tube amp and speaker a total blast..
@timhopkins3810
Жыл бұрын
Hi Michael, really good explanations on the differences between the 2. I flit from one to the other as just a home player now but when gigging it was solely amps. How would you say a live amp compares with something like using the two notes captor x? Do you feel like it loses something there too?
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
This past fall and spring I’ve been touring with an artist as a tech for a guitarist who is using the Ox box extensively. We miked up the amp and used the Ox. We A/B them a lot and used different ones depending on the setting. They both sound great but our front of house engineer described it as different colors. The mics sounded “more rock ‘n’ roll”. A bit more raw and open. The ox box was a little more polite, and sat in the mix differently. Neither one is bad, just different.
@monmixer
Жыл бұрын
Throw some furniture packing blankets over top of those amplifier racks. I used to do that all of the time in small rooms. Toss a packing blanket over the amp. Turn it up. no feedback, 10 foot from the stage it's done if it is not miked up. the most important thing is those people walk out of that room with a big smile on their face ready to buy another ticket next time.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Oh we did! Takes the edge off for sure
@monmixer
Жыл бұрын
@@MichaelWWestbrook Yea, I saw them on the set cart later on in the video.
@juniorcontreras4272
Жыл бұрын
what is the opening song? great riff
@work623
Жыл бұрын
Why not put an enclosure around the amp cart?
@jackprice7828
Жыл бұрын
Its funny. I remember the days where loud was just fine. But live performance has really changed and I get it. Theres no replacing a real mic on a real cab. But there are advantages to controlling volume for live mixing.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Yes, absolutely!
@NoCoverCharge
Жыл бұрын
No live sound didn’t change people became weak ass p .. that’s what changed play your amp loud
@ryangunwitch-black
Жыл бұрын
The only thing that has changed is people have become weak and putrid. 😂
@ryangunwitch-black
Жыл бұрын
These younger generations have come up playing in megachurches and think everything needs to be a P&W gig. 🐐
@keithowensmusic37
Жыл бұрын
Haha, This is funny to me because I've been running a Quad Cortex but switching back to an amp this coming weekend at church. I'm going thru a Mesa Boogie JP2C because it has 3 channels. Funny I'm seeing this at this time.
@jamescornett6477
2 ай бұрын
So you guys were pushing all those effects in front of those amps that hard? Wow, I understand how that would be more organic and three diminsional and give those cool sounds the guy described. It has been 10 years since I used an amp live, mostly for the sound guys. I've been asked to turn down my 5 watt amps, haha. After my Helix, I've gone smaller with ToneX and a delay (sometimes in front of ToneX). Some my worship guitar friends put so much delay and reverb on their sound, it really doesn't matter if they're playing TS overdrive or a fuzz, LOL. Lately I've gone with about 33% reverb and no delay unless it calls for it. We're at the mercy of the mixing guy anyway. And of course it is not about me. I'm just part of the Kingdom to glorify the King.
@ahall3823
Жыл бұрын
Most venues I’ve played at don’t even have stereo…
@mutantboy8888
Жыл бұрын
Many times it comes down to a persons ears, some Pro Musicians could never accept the Digital Modelers. No matter what anyone says, Digital Cuts the Sound into 24 Bit 196 Data slices per second. Its not music, its Data. Then, it tries to glue those Data slices back together when Digital Converts back to Analogue. So, for the Studio, the Pros bypass Pro Tools and record to 24 Track Tape. Then, they transfer to tape by use Expensive ADA Converters like Apogee or Universal Audio to Pro Tools for editing. Then back to Analogue Tape for Mastering. It really makes a huge difference in the sound, if you have good ears. For live performing, sometimes musicians can hear the difference between Tubes and IR's. It depends on the quality of the PA. A small PA, a tiny Venue or Church and a full band would make it very much harder to tell the difference.
@Polletross
Жыл бұрын
if some of the best metal bands like animals as leaders and periphery can use modelers live then I’m I sure y’all can get the best tone possible. Or do a combination of both
@sqlb3rn
Жыл бұрын
Modellers aren't even an option at the small dive bars I play, the budget PAs are suitable for vocals only.
@AntonovichHicksenbrau
Жыл бұрын
Building a Hybrid rig
@riffism
Жыл бұрын
Anyone who believes the average concert attendee can hear the difference between even a $500 modeler versus a tube amp once passed through a flown PA is kidding themselves. A modeler is a no-brainer in today’s touring world and I would never take a tube amp on even a regional show any longer.
@benjaminthancock
Жыл бұрын
Went digital for a few years and loved it, but now at a new church where the FOH guy is very anti-digital. Not sure why he’s so against them, but I have enjoyed playing my Vox again. Might try to convince him to let me use it one week and see what he thinks. I feel like my patches are pretty dialed in.
@picksalot1
Жыл бұрын
The high fidelity of Modelers is really "high frequency" fidelity, and is something you don't typically find in guitar Speakers/Cabs which top out at around 5kHz. This is why Modelers are praised for the clarity and criticized for their harshness, lack of nice mids, no bottom end, not moving air, and lacking width. If you want your Modeler to sound like a "Real" Amp, you need to learn how to EQ it. Start with matching its Cab High Cut to the real Speaker "frequency response," and you'll be surprised how much better and realistic it sounds.
@JDStone20
Жыл бұрын
YES YES YES!
@jamesalley7387
Жыл бұрын
Makes sense
@silvo305
Жыл бұрын
This. I got a QC and thought it sounded a little “flat” for my liking. Slapped on some high and low pass, problem solved.
@jmo1366
Жыл бұрын
Adding an EQ pedal to the mix most definitely helps..
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
I’m with you. I think the overall EQ can be tweaked, captures can be improved but that doesn’t necessarily make up for some of the things mentioned here - feel/responsiveness to to effects and stereo imaging. It’s well proven that the general sound can be practically the same.
@bhosterman
Жыл бұрын
I've tried all the digital alternatives with the QC being the latest... And I'm back to my Real amp. Every single time. It's a pain in the butt but I guess I'm old school. I know the crowd doesn't care. Personally, I find the lower the gain the better digital amps do. It's always the high gain tones that just don't do it for me.
@jimi272
Жыл бұрын
Oh yea, some part of the crowd always cares!
@M0M...
Жыл бұрын
This is the perfect scenario to test this. They are running their amps backstage (so there’s no interaction or stage volume) and they are on IEMs. This is when amp molders should shine, so it’s interesting to hear their thoughts
@tungsoltube
Жыл бұрын
Definitely pro's and con's to both. Been playing my captured amps (JMJ-30, Matchless, Marshall) on a QC for the last couple of years, and for simplicity and short set lists, it's perfect. Easy to setup, consistent sound to board/FOH, etc. My actual amps are going nowhere, however. For recording, projects, or a larger venue (like Elevation plays), then I bring the real thing. Some artists only want to hear my amps, and ask for specific models they have heard/played. I can preach to them all day about how hard I've worked on QC patches, tweaking, EQ'ing, etc, and how accurate they are. In the end, the real thing is going to be hard to beat 100% of the time.
@silvo305
Жыл бұрын
For me personally, the convenience and ease of setup and breakdown alone are why I’ve gone from using amps to modelers. Do you compromise on tone a little bit? Ehhhh maybe. I think that’s pretty subjective, especially considering there are many pro players out there who say they can’t really tell a huge difference. As long as you know what you’re doing, I think modelers can get 98% there in terms of tone and feel. However, if that extra 2% is worth it to you and inspires you as a player, that’s what matters in the end.
@MRxr400
Жыл бұрын
i agree, but i still play with an amp on stage behind me, worship or cover band pub gigs. i just couldn't get that response and inspiration from frfr cabnets or FB wedges as i do from a valve amp behind me. i do like simple no tweaking rigs, and it's too easy to get lost in the digital world of constantly being unhappy, uninspired and editing.
@BobSince1981
Жыл бұрын
My 42 year old body likes lugging no amp 😅
@aliengrey6052
Жыл бұрын
Laziness. There is a huge difference.
@aliengrey6052
Жыл бұрын
Not 2% 40%!!!!!!!
@chrisgmurray3622
3 ай бұрын
I don't know why musicians these days complain if they have to lift anything heavier than a guitar. I'm in my 70's but since I'm not disabled, I have no problem loading in and out with two 2x12's, a tube power ampin a rack box, and another rack with two preamps and analogue delay. On the floor I use a volume pedal TC chorus, and TS808. This is some free exercise, and doesn't take long to set up and check. Though it may be possible to sculpt tones to the N'th degree with modellers and other line level amp clones, but is using the wrong side of your brain for creative pursuits and can fall over even more easily than tube amps, with which I've had only one amp failure in 50 years, and even then the amp kept going long enough to finish the gig, but had lost its high end due to a failed filter cap. Apart from this, I've always had my tube amps biased and retubed if necessary, which happened only three times in my whole life of electric playing. I enjoy using amps because it is more fun for me to play with a sound that inspires me, rather than one that will pass the ball-park approximation of a real amp for the audience and the front of house mixer, but will have me watching the clock for my next break, instead of enjoying a real air-moving sound that doesn't need mic'ing up or messing with, and can be adjusted on the fly for levrls snd eq's in different rooms. Often as guitarists, we're lucky just to be working live, and have to use boring set lists for functions etc, so at least with the sort of set up I'm not too decrepit to load in snd out, I can enjoy the gig at the simplest level, my own basic sound, not someone else's copy of a snapshot of audio, based on a theoretical model of an actual amp.
@cadenbaughman9415
Жыл бұрын
Played an ACS1 and HX Stomp and real amps. I noticed that speaker compression is a huge component. Modelers are close but can't quite recreate the weirdness of moving air out of a cone.
@RyanWellsMusic
Жыл бұрын
I've seen people complaining on the Line 6 forum that they hear artifacts that they can't dial out, but then go back to their tube amp and notice the same thing for the first time. E described it well regarding the openness. There is a 3D quality to real amps that modelers just can't replicate. I've always said for years that modelers sound like the sound is pressed up against a plate of glass. It's like they do the 2D (x + y axis) really well, but there's a depth, or z axis component in real amps (not a lows, mids, and highs thing) with all of the layered artifacts that modelers can't replicate and as a result, just end up compressing those artifacts into the 2D spectrum. It actually has nothing to do with tubes vs solid state. It's the interaction between how the output transformer throws the notes and the interplay with the mechanical action of the speaker cone. That's where all the feel and openness comes from, not from EQ. Modelers will never replicate that.
@kencubala9560
Жыл бұрын
What an excellent and descriptive post.
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I agree it’s not an EQ thing. I’ve also heard some engineers say whatever the digital lack’s actually makes it easier to sit in a mix sometimes. It’s to the point now where maybe it’s a conversation of different and maybe not “better”.
@RyanWellsMusic
Жыл бұрын
@@MichaelWWestbrook I've heard the opposite. I've heard well known Nashville engineers say there's something with modelers where you can't stack guitars in a mix. The explanation being they always sound too loud once you get them to sit right, like they eat up more of the frequency space. As a result, many session players have Kempers, but use them as more of an effect or overdub on maybe a key part, but not as the core guitar tone for stacking and doubling. It seems to be more of an issue with distorted tones. Cleaner tones (in say a pop song), like textural parts (bubble picking, shuck rhythms, arpeggiated chordal parts) seem alright.
@michelvondenhoff9673
Жыл бұрын
In high end hifi it is called soundstage.
@charlesconnally5243
Жыл бұрын
Great explanation
@larrymarcusmusic
Жыл бұрын
To each their own, truly. But I keep finding guitar players who say "modelers are better", and I think they just want things that are "easier" and more "convenient"...and that saddens me. Show me a guitar player that says modelers are better, and I'll show you a lazy musician. Amps will always be better. Always. The day that Joe Bonamassa switches to modelers only is the day that I'll consider them. Also, why don't you guys just get some ISO boxes built? I've seen a few that are basically vocal booths tipped on their side and that does the job wonderfully...
@matthewhoward4284
Жыл бұрын
My personal experience as a FOH Mixing Engineer is that the "stereo width" and the "low-end" feeling between an amp and an amp sim are negligible. The perceived differences between the two can mainly be isolated at how the two sources interact with the environment they inhabit. While an amp vibrates the space and the floor adjacent to the player (Which in turn responds with its own sympathetic frequencies), an Amp Sim isolates that sound to the IEMs and the FOH. But TLDR, there is no scientific difference between the recreation of a modeler and the response of the Amp, Cab and Mic used to model the setup in the modeler. The real difference is the room you play it in and the current biological health of the player's ears.
@owlsonik37
Жыл бұрын
I seen Interpol recently and Daniel Kessler had his twin reverb on stage, cranked and it was glorious!
@KevPez-IS
Жыл бұрын
Can’t explain what it is. I saw Symphony X live with Haken and Trope as openers. Both openers used modelers and they all sounded great. Symphony X comes out with an ENGL and it was up and away the best sound.
@davemcloughlin8867
Жыл бұрын
Great video. Can’t beat the feeling of moving air with a loud valve amp and a couple of 12” speakers. I do now however use a helix and over a period of time stopped even taking an amp as a back up. Playing small venues here in the uk it really helps. We’re all on stereo iems and the pros outweigh the cons every time. Global EQ of the mids helps.
@jasonstallworth
Жыл бұрын
This was great! I’d like to see more on these amps in a box, such as what UA is making, Victory, Strymon, the Blackstar Amped series, etc. and how those compare to real amps. And is it the actual amps (digital vs tube) or is it more of the cabinet simulation vs real cabinet? Just some cool things to consider and talk about. All that said, I think the only folks that care are us musicians. The audience just wants to hear great songs with a great sound.
@alguitarchristie
Жыл бұрын
I do use the Iridium and I have a new victory amp which uses two notes IR's and it's very practical, especially for small gigs! But I think there is something really lacking in the midrange and i don't enjoy it so much! I feel like I'm just putting up with it for convenience! Love your videos by the way!
@MitchellSpille
Жыл бұрын
I highly recommend checking out kemper, quad cortex, or the UAFX amp pedals. All 3 are definitely a huge step up from the Iridium in terms of how close they get to real amps. Real amps are still the very best though.
@yikelu
Жыл бұрын
The mid range on digital, I've found, is typically scooped because of how users dial them in and forget to account for Fletcher-Munson. Amps are almost always dialed in pretty loud, if not at stage volume. Modelers usually get dialed in for studio monitors and headphones at comfortable listening volumes. You put that tone at stage volumes and suddenly you sound scooped. Stereo width ... you might be able to get something close by running dual cabs with a micro delay. Feel ... yeah that takes a lot more doing. I currently run a modeler into the FX Return of a solid state amp and I learned that it typically sounds better with my cab-IR still engaged. John Nathan Cordy has mentioned this on his channel so I gave it a shot and found I liked it. I'm guessing it's the Fletcher-Munson thing I was talking about, where the extra cab-IR on top of the real cabinet emphasizes the mid range more and gets me closer to what things sounded like at low volumes.
@cameronlesley2428
Жыл бұрын
I love the sound of the real and I love the portability of the modeller
@tylergorham7301
Жыл бұрын
Been hoping for a rundown since the behind-the-scenes short Elevation put out of the amp cart in the hallway!
@JustinOstrander
Жыл бұрын
There is absolutely a difference IMO. Can the crowd hear it in a giant venue? Probably not. But even if only the guitar player can hear it and if he gets more inspiration out of hearing a real speaker moving air, then I think it’s worth it, and it will affect what comes out in his playing. Granted, that difference seems to be shrinking year by year as modeling tech advances. A few years ago, I would’ve scoffed at the idea of using a virtual cabinet, but I use a Revv D20 and a UA Ox Box quite a bit these days.
@georgemavimbela
Жыл бұрын
I agree
@MichaelWWestbrook
Жыл бұрын
Absolutely! There definitely a bit more inspiration that comes from the real thing
@JustinOstrander
Жыл бұрын
@@MichaelWWestbrook It's the air moving for me. I don't quite hear it in the modeling. But with a good tube amp, the cab modelers are pretty great. Playing in a full band mix helps disguise it.
@yaniv-nos-tubes
Жыл бұрын
hi, great video. i work on live gigs, in the last ten years ive seen many guitar players go to the dark side mainly with kempers but some quads as well, they totally disappear through a dense mix but since they make life so much easier for the guitar player and the sound engineer they stick with it.
@MaPa60
Жыл бұрын
Great to touch base on this topic again. I like and use both modellers and amps for studio recording. Especially for pop and cleaner tones, modellers are doing great. And they are less noisy, which is required for some productions. I also like to do hybrid, with a pedalboard. And the analog amps still has a place when the guitars are the stars. I concur with what's stated in the video, guitars seem to come more up front and sound bigger with the analog amps. It's not always needed across genres, but for guitar centric music, sure.
@EstebanOnGuitar
Жыл бұрын
Awesome vid! Really appreciate the real life look into these rigs. When it comes to volume, I feel getting lower wattage 1x12 amps could really help. You know, something like a Deluxe Reverb or Princeton instead of the Bandmaster, as just one example. Still get amazing amp tones, but potentially be able to drop the volume a decent amount. What do you think?
@ryanwhite5482
Жыл бұрын
Using an HX Stomp, I've had success running a hybrid setup with one side real and one side modeled. Sometimes if FOH is mono, that modeled side is just for me. The Stomp allows all combinations of amps, all modeled, or hybrid
@keithweiss7899
Жыл бұрын
Interesting video. I’m Chris Brown’s (lead singer for E.W.) uncle and have been in electronics for over 55 years, since my brother, his dad, got me interested in it. I much prefer tube amps and I enjoy my tube radio receivers. I’m not sure tube amps will ever be replaced.
@joelhabrial3897
Жыл бұрын
I struggle to see the point of going with real amps if they’re not on stage. One of the things I love most about having a real amp on stage is the interaction you get between what comes out of the speaker and the guitar. It becomes greater than the sum of its parts. If I couldn’t have the amps on stage, I’d be happy with modelers since they can be dialed in so well, and are easier to travel with.
@jonasirw1
9 ай бұрын
Excellent point. Having them shoved down a lonely cinder block hallway felt wrong
@paulkontz
Жыл бұрын
For me, the benefits of using a modeler or even some D type analog amps far outweigh the downside. For one, reliability. At the level most working guitarists perform, tube amps are just too finicky. I’ve found that the consistency of a modeler gets me up and running much quicker at a bar or party gig. As long as it’s not interfering with your playing, no one else in the audience is gonna hear the difference. Studio is obviously a different story.
@shanerose5348
Жыл бұрын
It's not just amps that crash. I had a modeler go down live during worship. Brought in a backup rig the following practice (20 watt head, 1x12 cab and pedalboard) and used it for the next service. Our worship leader was adamantly against bringing back the modeler after that. Haven't used digital since, haven't missed it.
@humanimal5527
10 ай бұрын
Which modeler were you using?
@candyCode
Жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to test only using the cabs vs amp + cab, so you’d have the amp coming from the modeler and plugged to a 2x12 or 4x12… I’d love to see what that does… in my experience, great IR’s can make or break your tone and overall experience with modelers
@chrisdrake447
Жыл бұрын
Interesting perspectives all round, Michael. I feel that bands are sometimes ill-equipped to understand what makes a good “live” sound, ie the front-of-house audio that the paying audience can actually enjoy. I grant you that a player will want the ‘best’ love sound for their own technical and personal enjoyment whilst playing on stage, but that does not always square with it being a good f-o-h sound. Which should be at least 50% of the equation, shouldn’t it? I’m not a sound engineer (I’m at best an incompetent guitarist), but it seems that the sound guy(s) out front are often overruled or under-appreciated, perhaps out-voted by over-confident players as what constitutes a good live sound.
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