Hey, it's an good design and unpickable in my option, I should now as I invented this style of disk lock about 5 years ago, but abandoned the idea as it's unpatentable, because someone else beat me to it - Carl L. Lambert, invented it 20 years ago, see US patent 5,964,111.
@LockNoob
3 ай бұрын
That’s really really interesting thanks
@dave-kt7sj
2 ай бұрын
It got designed again kzitem.info/news/bejne/sIGOumF6g5d7iaQ
@andypughtube
2 ай бұрын
That doesn't have the fixed cutoff sleeve (which is actually the whole point of my lock, the rest of the design is just to make that work) This has two shear-lines, mine has three. But I will stress again that multiple shear lines isn't the point, it just won't work without them. The point is the fact that the pin bores are blocked once in the false set.
@ChaossX77
20 күн бұрын
@@andypughtubedid the lock picking lawyer have a go at your lock?
@andypughtube
20 күн бұрын
@@ChaossX77 I don't know. A well-known youtuber and ticktocker who works for LPL asked me for one of the locks, then didn't pick it and hasn't returned it after 18 months. Perhaps he smashed it against a masterlock and has nothing to return? So, maybe the LPL has seen it, maybe not. I think if it had been picked then I would have heard. I have had nothing but great experiences from the European locksport community. The famous US pickers have either ignored me or stolen my locks.
@Sonic110a
2 жыл бұрын
I would like to see this lot sent to the lock picking lawyer and see if he could pick it that way it can be improved on if necessary. I also would like to say thank you lock noob for having your stuff online I had a friend of mine 3D print a couple of lock cylinder holders and a pinning tray for me which of course the pinning tray has your logo on it.
@eporter5071
Жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure he did pick this one
@fifiwoof1969
Жыл бұрын
@@eporter5071 How do you foresee it? Bypass flaw in the design? Single pin pick? Rake? Bump? Comb? Name a method for us please.
@TimbavatiLion
Жыл бұрын
@@fifiwoof1969 Probably a comb pick, pushig all the stacks beyond the outer sheer line; the bible looks to be deep enough to do that.
@fifiwoof1969
Жыл бұрын
@@TimbavatiLion that's easily fixable, right? I'd be worried about the thick wafers being an integer multiple of the thin wafers and the tolerances in trying to get those thicknesses right and how they would wear over time. That many moving parts it's just a matter of time.
@fifiwoof1969
Жыл бұрын
@@TimbavatiLion also don't serrated and spool pins do the same job as this design.
@fordsfords
2 жыл бұрын
As a designer (code, not mechanics), I can really appreciate the sheer beauty of the design. Not the physical beauty of the embodiment, though that is also wonderful, but the beauty of the ideas behind it. Thanks to you, and thanks to Andy for sharing.
@ej5364
Жыл бұрын
*shear beauty.. how punny. Lol
@brianhignett8954
2 жыл бұрын
Hi Lock Noob, Clever design, and obviously its number one criteria was its pick resistance. That's fine for Locksporters as it becomes a major challenge to one and all, from a practical situation, and as a Locksmith, I have some concerns. For a lock design to become a commercial success - and I've seen so many "clever" locks fail - it has to be long term reliable in the field. It also has to be able to be master keyed, for large installations. Master keying requires additional master wafers to be added en masse to an already large stack of "master wafers" in this cylinder. Stacked master wafers - particularly 15 thou. thick - often jam or roll over causing lock outs as the pins, keyways, and cylinders wear. The addition of extra sleeves, and wafers, long term, is adding to complexity. The old saying " Complexity is the enemy of reliability" has in my 60 odd years of Locksmithing, been true so many times.
@tipenengapuhi
2 жыл бұрын
As always, you're practical "Locksmith in the field" approach hits the nail on the head Brian.
@andypughtube
2 жыл бұрын
You are correct, and I have had this conversation with a few lock company employees. The market needs key security (ie, it is hard to make unauthorised copies) and mastering systems. The only way that I could imagine this working in a mastering system would be with all keys in the system having the same basic profile, and with the access levels being controlled by secondary features, such as side-bars. However, I will point out that this is a rather simple lock in many ways, all the parts look like normal lock parts, all just simple lathe-turned parts. It would require almost no re-tooling for any manufacturer to start making them. The lock body in this prototype is wilfully complicated. But then my main hobby is machining (and my machining KZitem channel). A production version of this lock would have a body drilled from solid with an annular cutter.
@bartbartholomew
Жыл бұрын
Till Lockpicking Lawyer gives it a go, I don't trust it to be "unpickable".
@ProWhitaker
Жыл бұрын
Yes
@SevenToes2007
Жыл бұрын
If he picks it he has to show that it was not a fluke
@PitchUpCampsiteReviews
Жыл бұрын
@@SevenToes2007 agreed
@andypughtube
Жыл бұрын
I have emailed him three times, he doesn't reply.
@wickedcabinboy
Жыл бұрын
@@andypughtube - No doubt he gets many, many emails. He could be busy. I doubt he's avoiding you. This lock definitely presents a challenge.
@DAdamTrammell
2 жыл бұрын
Wow. Just wow. Didn't realize there was two different sleeves at first and couldn't understand the deep false set. That's brilliant, yet supremely silly to see it in a padlock. That mechanism has some true high security applications. Would also like to point out the beautiful machining that went into making that prototype. Thank you so much for sharing and going into such detail. 👏 👏 👏
@molluscturtle
Жыл бұрын
I’ve known Andy for over 20 years and he never ceases to amaze me - without doubt the cleverest bloke I have ever met. I never even knew he was into locks, so to pop up with this (and the beautiful machining) is just bonkers.
@dakayaerus
2 жыл бұрын
Absolutely beautifully designed. Love it. Also love your videos. I'm very new to picking, about 10 months now but I love your passion and love seeing how and why these locks work. Thank you for sharing and being who you are!
@FallenSyn23
2 жыл бұрын
I want to see Lockpicking Lawyer try this one!
@sam-nariman6236
4 ай бұрын
When he hasn't yet doesn't tell you something?
@CorrectJeans
2 жыл бұрын
Very neat concept. I've enjoyed watching all these new delayed authentication designs that have been coming out recently. Because of how the drivers are laid out, couldn't you use the required lift to the first shearline to drastically cut down the number of key combinations? From what I can tell, at baseline position, the lower shearline either intersects the long top driver (high cut) or the gap-sized wafer (low cut). If you measure the amount of lift required for every stack to reach the first shear, then you know that the required key cut at every position will be that height plus one of only 2 values. You could then extract further information by attempting to determine whether the second wafer that hits shear in each stack is a thin or a thick wafer, which would be quite difficult but very possible with some trial and error. If you can distinguish that binary decision for each stack, then you'll have successfully decoded the lock. I think the biggest flaw in this design is that the layout of the drivers that determines the correct key cuts is accessible via picking and measuring. This is in contrast to some other designs where the authentication mechanism cannot be probed in this way through picking.
@LockNoob
2 жыл бұрын
Another beautiful and clever design for an unpickable lock 🔐 Do you think you could pick it? Can you see a way? Let us know!
@bowleylockcompanyinc
2 жыл бұрын
Super Cool Lock.
@NothingPicksLocks
2 жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure I could open that
@imago888
2 жыл бұрын
You have to try to find a way to glue or solder the pins between them.???
@idkidk4334
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe when I pick assa twin sidebar pins i go cycling through them (pick one another drops) until it opens maybe that's how it would be to pick this
@cicibates2895
2 жыл бұрын
You could theoretically tension the outer sleeve by using a long back of keyway tensioner that grabs onto the slot for the rod to slide. Kinda like an SFIC control tensioner.
@Aco747lyte
Жыл бұрын
Beautifully machined; a real work of art. I've been enjoying lock-sport for over 10 years and would dearly love to watch what Lockpicking Lawyer makes of this. Many thanks!
@alger8181
2 жыл бұрын
That is a wonderful lock, and beautiful engineering!
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Yeah!
@hanelyp1
2 жыл бұрын
This lock might be vulnerable to a hybrid attack. Push the key spacers above the main sheer line, then bump to make a space in the stack so the thin wafers don't jam on the inner sleeve.
@johndododoe1411
Жыл бұрын
Yes, it's a big question of the thin wafers can fill the moving sleeve instead of the dedicated thick wafer. Also, 0.25mm wafers means the key must be cut to 0.1mm precision to work reliably, which is a problem for a production lock where keys are duplicated and worn.
@harryrowley2064
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing all of the aspects of that beautifully designed lock. It looks so unassuming that you wouldn't suspect that it is unpickable without some sort of special equipment if that's even possible. Beyond my comprehension...
@andypughtube
2 жыл бұрын
If anyone wants to see how the lock was made: kzitem.info/news/bejne/k2mcyXyMpXaXeYY
@itsdeebs5156
2 жыл бұрын
Without giving too much away. There is a non destructive attack method for THIS lock. That can easily be resolved with how the the waifers are stacked. Trying not to give away too much on the "flaw" because it could be just a simplification for the prototype. I absolutely love the design. Well done Andy.
@maxgood42
2 жыл бұрын
I was thinking of a LPL decoder to count the wafers ?
@itsdeebs5156
2 жыл бұрын
Not a bad idea. My idea was based how they are stacked. In this case, driver , main waifer , Nx waifer , pin. Overtenstion the hell out of it. That will get the mainwaifer set nearly ever time. Like I said easy solve though
@maxgood42
2 жыл бұрын
@@itsdeebs5156 actually I just realised an easy way around all of this Just push the whole lot up with a comb 🤦♂️🤣🤣🤣 With the wafers up in the second sleeve it will turn?
@itsdeebs5156
2 жыл бұрын
@@maxgood42 unfortunately no looking at the design. There is insufficient height and the main waifer needs to be in that milled slot.
@maxgood42
2 жыл бұрын
@@itsdeebs5156 that would be the only defence there but could that also work as first setup then reverse pick letting them drop down until you get the sleeve pins into place? Actually looking at the animation again I realised that the largest push on the key leaves 2 wafers in the body between the barrel and secondary sleeve , so when picking it just push up for 2 false positives for each pin.
@Funwayguy
Жыл бұрын
It's a cool design idea but there is a few things that need fixing for this to be viable. Firstly, unless there is some overlift protection, those 'false' shear lines could still function assuming you can push wafers up to the second true shear line (which the animation actually shows is possible) making comb picking a real possibility. Secondly, the plug needs to be sealed off at the back to prevent manipulation of the connecting rod otherwise there is potential for a tool to reach in and tension the true shear line (once set the inner plug shear line is useless). Finally, from a repinning standpoint, it would be a pain in the ass to have both driver pin size AND wafer stack count determine the bitting. At least in the enclave the driver pin was the only meaningful part to the bitting with wafer counts being up to preference. EDIT: Thought of another potential issue. The previous enclave has the possibility for mastering in the driver pins for commercial access control keys. The co-axial does not and therefore not suitable for that market purpose. It would prove prohibitively difficult to not only support a master bitting between the two shear lines but even more of a pain in the ass for a locksmith to repin.
@frankbiz
2 жыл бұрын
Very smart design indeed. Thanks for sharing.
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Thanks 😊
@thelockpickinglebowski633
9 ай бұрын
After re-examining this, I'm thinking the wafers make it easier to pick, if the thickness of the wafer stack exceeds the thick pin above them. Perhaps it would be advantageous if the stack of wafers which happened to exceed the thickness of the pin above them were also two thick or too thin. Example: 2 combined wafers were too short to equal the above pin while 3 combined wafers were too long to equal the above pin. I hope this makes sense. Happy new year and keep up the good work!
@JoseNovaUltra
3 ай бұрын
The problem is that you still need tension is the "second" sheer line to do that, thta is the hard part. If you tension that is would be pickable, but still really annoying.
@uncle_thulhu
11 ай бұрын
Thank you for explaining that. I've long wondered why master wafers make a lock easier to pick, while doing what you described makes it impossible. You are a wonderful teacher. You've answered so many of my questions without my even having to ask them. I've still got a couple of questions about keyways, but I'll bet there's something in your back catalogue (I'm watching in reverse order).❤
@Hastings1066TV
2 жыл бұрын
Such a simple idea, it would seem that aside from picking, the next intrusion method would be to clone or obtain the matching key. Unless there is a skeleton key of course. It would be great to get (before he sadly retired), Bosnian Bill's take on this , and of course LockPickingLawyer's view also. It appears to be a potential game changer, and I really hope Andy Pugh gets his patent and these lock cores see the mainstream market, certainly here in the UK 👍🤞
@donpicks
2 жыл бұрын
Really great video and a really impressive concept. I admire people who implement great ideas so brilliantly. Andy Pugh has really created something impressive here and I hope that his patent also goes into series production. This simply has to be rewarded.
@Yousitech
Жыл бұрын
I had this exact idea about a year ago. Never got around to making it. Glad to see that it works
@random40s
Жыл бұрын
A definite downside is as the lock is used the key, and the key pins wear.. The lock will become unusable over time, and that will cause some very big problems for people. Also that lock must be kept incredibly clean as I can see even the smallest amount of dirt/weathering could possibly render it unusable. I do like the concept, and design tho, but have reservations about durability.
@garyg3617
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent description of a brilliant design. Is this the end of lock picking? Not while Masterlock still exists 😊
@sebastiannielsen
2 жыл бұрын
Another thing is that this actually makes lock manufacturing easier - a factory don't need to stock different pins no longer, they only need to stock 5 types of parts for pin holes Key pin, Key wafer, Thick Wafer, Driver pin, Spring. Regardless of key, keycode is just amount of key wafers.
@theEVILone0130
Жыл бұрын
I'd like to see what the lockpicking lawyer can do with it.
@eleventy-seven
2 жыл бұрын
Send it to the Lock Picking Lawyer. He's picked our best.
@JohnHolliday1911
Жыл бұрын
Thank you, this is helpful for someone very green!
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Thanks
@youtubegaveawaymychannelname
2 жыл бұрын
Not saying that it will work, but the first thing I think about whenever I see a design like this is to see if an overlift attack combined with a tension wrench bounce will get the lock open. Also after further watching and thinking about the design, it appears that the drivers are all the same height so it may be possible to decode the bitting somewhat by measuring max lift height of each pin stack. This could work only because in this particular design, the drivers and the first wafer are essentially known hieghts the only variability left is the key pins and the short stack of smaller wafers. If you max lift each pin stack and subtract the known lengths of the drivers and main wafer, you get the remainder of the pin stack height. It's all theoretical but that's at least how I'd try to attack it.
@andypughtube
2 жыл бұрын
Good point, but also an easy fix.
@Phred_Phlintstoner
2 жыл бұрын
I agree with trying the over lifting attack, but I also would try super controlled manual counter rotation and keep picking until more than a .25mm pin travel is required to "set" a pin. It kinda reminds me of the challenge lock keymaster sent around called jeck, that bound up because of milled slots cut into the core and driver pins that were essentially just brass nails that would bind up tight. But with really fine core control and trail and error I think it could be done, maybe.
@Ryan-mj4cg
2 жыл бұрын
I think theres a chance a electric pick with a comb like tool may throw the small wafers into the slot and allow an easy open. But i think if you push one of the key pins up high enough to bind the inner core you may be able to pick the other 4 chambers outer core before trying to move back to that first chamber and lowering it until it opens.
@HalfInt
Жыл бұрын
I think the driver pins being the same length is just to ease manufacturing of the prototype. Its not necessary for the design, and the animated scematics show them with different lengths matching the number of wafers.
@KCML82
Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see how LPL or Bill would tackle this.
@TheWhiteTrashPanda
Жыл бұрын
Or Deviant Ollam
@puncherdavis9727
Жыл бұрын
Send it to the Lockpicking lawyer and see if he can pick it :) Do a collaberation
@tobiasbrewin4355
Жыл бұрын
Genius but simple design. I may be misunderstanding the set up of the pin stacks, but from the animation it seems that the large wafer 'correct' is always on the top. If so this would mean a skilled picker who is able to set a pin on the first lift virtually every time, would be able to locate the large wafer in the Goldilocks zone pin by pin. In practice I imagine this would be very difficult but potentially possible? In order to protect against this there would need to (at least sometimes) be small wafers above the large one so the picker doesn't know the first shear line is the correct one. The height of the large wafers would also need to not be a multiple of the heights of the small wafers lest 2 or 3 wafers could perfectly fit between the 2 shear lines.
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Interesting
@DopravniPoradce
Жыл бұрын
I know sh*t about lock picking, I'm total rookie. But this lock excites me. It's so simple and so powerful solution. I thing maybe wear and tear may be an issue. But - wow. I hope one day LPL will give it a try.
@locksmithandmore9679
Жыл бұрын
great concept.
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Sure is
@Pyrolock
2 жыл бұрын
Wow Andy -- a masterpiece of engineering -- very well conceived and executed. Normally Master Keying by stacking master wafers is a total no no and makes picking child's play BUT you have successfully reversed the concept to make a very highly "pick resistant" lock, and in a usable EURO format to boot! Thanks to loaning it to Ash so we could actually see the guts -- most excellent
@wickedcabinboy
Жыл бұрын
This is actually brilliantly designed. Is it unpickable? As someone has already said, I'd like to see LPL give it a try. No question it would be a challenge.
@murrayedington
Жыл бұрын
Nice one, Andy!
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
👍
@zyxzevn
Жыл бұрын
2 options. You must only turn the outer core in some way. Maybe you can reach it with a long hook? Another way is to go from deepest level to lower level. Due to the bigger size the inner core will not move when you have found the real pin. And then you know how many stacking disks you have. With the knowledge you can make a key-copy. Or try to hold the pins at the right height and see which stack binds first.
@LoftechUK
2 жыл бұрын
Amazing engineering
@JohnnyDee62
2 жыл бұрын
This seems like it might be SP pickable from the top down; i.e., overlift the pins and let them drop into place? Delicate pick, but with the right touch.... Could be solved by shorter driver pins and thin wafers on either side of the thicker one? 🤔 Still seems like the right feel (not mine, lol!🤪) might counter the wafer setup. 🤷♂
@MikkoRantalainen
Жыл бұрын
If you had e.g. 4 thin wafers and 1 thick (correct) wafer per stack in random order, the problem is equally hard to solve either way and slowly lowering overlifted pins is harder in practice. As I see it, the practical problem with this design is that you cannot realistically go thinner than 0.2-0.3 mm for the thinner wafer and the thicker (correct) wafer must be at least 2.5x thicker, there will be only 4-5 possible keycuts per stack. In addition, even 0.2 mm thick wafers require really small tolerances for the actual manufacturing and it requires using 0.2-0.3 mm thick middle sleeve which would be prone to fail in practical use.
@lauxmyth
Жыл бұрын
Wow! Great idea and execution. Andy did great work there.
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
👍
@LockFumbler
2 жыл бұрын
Great design on this lock! Really impressive with what Andy has come up with. Also a great execution on the prototype! Excellent presentation of this very complex lock. Well done and thank you very much for sharing! Cheers 🍻
@TheWrightStuffWorks-1
Жыл бұрын
Hey Lock Noob, what happens if the key gets slightly worn? Would it go from unpickable to unusable?
@thelockpickinglebowski633
2 жыл бұрын
"Oh sir, it's only wafer thin."
@BraveUlysses59
Жыл бұрын
That was an excellent video. I enjoyed it.
@transatlantek
Жыл бұрын
A beautiful piece of engineering.
@hitnovak
2 жыл бұрын
Theoretically by picking all pins to the first shear line, the "main" wafers should become aligned; then it should only be the matter of carefully lifting all stack by one wafer, trying it out, lifting all stack by another wafer, and so on until it opens. It probably wouldn't work all the time and a lishi tool would be helpful to keep track of everything. Although it's not shown in the video, some wafers could theoretically also be stacked above the "main" wafer, however, I don't think that would make much difference with this technique; by lifting all stacks by one wafer at a time, the thicker "main" wafers will still be easy to spot using a lishi tool, and as long as you can align those, you can theoretically pick this lock.
@ehrichweiss
2 жыл бұрын
You're essentially describing comb picking...with (necessary) extra steps. I suggested something similar and I think we're both onto the idea.
@martylawson1638
Жыл бұрын
This is an exceptionally clever lock. Brilliant that it fits in a standard lock body. Looks like there is a tiny gap to get a tensioning tool to the coaxial core. Might be enough to let you pick it? Also might be able to tension the coaxial core through the attached shackle or bolt? That said, the biggest potential vulnerability I see is over lifting. Looks like if you can get the wafer stack into the coaxial core the lock will open. Might be able to stop this by making the coaxial core 2.5 wafers thick? Maybe add some traps for wafers in the wrong spot?
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Interesting, good ideas
@SadisticPicker
2 жыл бұрын
This is an awesome design. Hell I just want a padlock that takes half euros. Let alone something built so beautifully. Still baffles me that it has so many wafers but only opens at one shearline. I would think that them wafers would have to lock up somehow. Or have a pin thru them to keep them from turning on a shear. Like something master key’d. Gonna have to rewatch this. Think I missed something🤷🏼😂. Very cool content! And Andy…. Holy hell man👏👏👏😎. I’m looking to see if ya have your own channel. Very cool lock!
@ArtichokeTwoThousand
2 жыл бұрын
Hey Mr Noob! Fantastic video as always my friend. I think I have an idea on how to pick this and a potential fix for that. Im going to have to put on my thinking cap
@andypughtube
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, thanks for the input. Your analysis is one of the reasons that I have tried to be open about this design. This particular lock concentrates possibly too much on single pin picking resistance. There are ways to mitigate your attack, but it is rather clever.
@fifiwoof1969
Жыл бұрын
@@andypughtube care to share artichoke's insight with the rest of us?
@andypughtube
Жыл бұрын
@@fifiwoof1969 It relies on being able to tell if the outer shear line is binding for each pin chamber after setting with a max-lift key. (shims in the outer cylinder) to reduce the number of trial keys needed. It isn't clear that it _is_ possible to tell, but the corners of the shim stacks (in the current implementation) do slightly interact in that condition. More movement before engaging the outer cylinder fixes this, but then it becomes very hard to design a detente that can pull the outer cylinder back into position with the key centred. This is where there is a compromise between pick-difficulty and handling completely like a conventional lock.
@VeraTR909
2 жыл бұрын
Extremely clever design.
@butchvandyk1051
2 жыл бұрын
see the gutting went much smoother than the other lock (DOM) super cool lock thank you for the cool content
@BeercanBushcraft
2 жыл бұрын
That was beautifully presented and explained, really enjoyed that. Looks like an angle grinder lockpicking session to me 🤔😉😂 What a fabulous bit of engineering. All the best to you and yours 👍 👍 👍 🍻
@asailijhijr
Жыл бұрын
From the thumbnail and title, I had guessed the lock would have different correct shear lines for different pin stacks. The core would be the shape of a stepped cone and different pin stacks shear at different radii. This design would be robust against an (unmodified) comb picking attack as the top of the comb brings the bottom of each stack to the same shear line, the comb itself would cross the shear line at pin 5 and prevent core rotation .
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
👍
@cmarano
2 жыл бұрын
Unbelievably complex. Thanks for showcasing another 'unpickable' lock. I certainly couldn't pick it. I would certainly buy it if I needed a lock that was truly high-security.
@ItsBoyRed
Жыл бұрын
i wouldnt, as a locksmith i can tell you that this will fail rather quickly if used on a real door.
@wilforddraper1894
27 күн бұрын
How would you open it?
@cmarano
26 күн бұрын
@@wilforddraper1894 Very slowly. :)
@wilforddraper3570
18 күн бұрын
@@cmarano sorry the thing sent wrong I tried to send this to the other reply
@billmiller4800
Жыл бұрын
From a number of combinations perspective, only the "correct" ones matter, so you have 5 pins with 7 values each (from a password perspective, a very small space). So if you can sequentially go through them mechanically (not via picking and feeling) one at a time (00000, 00001, 00002, ...), it may take a few minutes, but it would be possible. A 3D version of this would be amazing and significantly more difficult (i.e. 2, 3, 4, ... sets of pin stacks), but then the metal of the lock becomes easier to bypass. As with all things like a password, length (# pins here) is the only actual protection against a determined attacker with lots of time. And also with all things security, "fixing" one weakness just moves it somewhere else, and if you're smart enough you know where you moved the weakness :). Great video and awesome design!
@glasslinger
2 жыл бұрын
The Lock Picking Lawyer's worst nightmare!
@FallenSyn23
2 жыл бұрын
*LPL will pick it within minutes Would probably happen.
@1pcfred
Жыл бұрын
@@FallenSyn23 If it takes LPL minutes to pick a lock then it's a good lock.
@Bowsarge
Жыл бұрын
I'm concerned about the longevity of a lock like this. The more pieces it has, the more possible failing points it could have.
@techseeker3250
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video, very well explained every part of the lock
@freakygardener8033
Жыл бұрын
That was REALLY cool, but with those wafers being so thin, makes me wonder about longevity, and durability.
@D-Rock420
2 жыл бұрын
It's not unpickable til LPL has a try 😆
@jimsmindonline
2 жыл бұрын
Amazing engineering! Perhaps oversetting each pin and trying to pick in reverse and work out where that thick wafer is?
@MikkoRantalainen
Жыл бұрын
I agree that this would work with the current implementation. However, if you made the correct wafer 2.5 times the thin wafer, then you could just add random amount of thin wafers above the correct wafer, too. In fact, you could always have identical key pins and driver pins and always have one correct wafer plus 5 thin wafers for each stack. And the attacker would need to guess the position of the thick wafer in the stack to get the lock open. The clever part of this lock is how the shutter mechanism is implemented that prevents checking which pin is binding when applying torque to the core in false set. Assuming pretty tight real world tolerances near 0.1 mm between the sleeves, you could go with maybe 0.3 mm thick wafers for the thin parts which would require maybe 0.75 mm for the correct wafer and that would make the outer sleeve wall thickness of 0.75 mm. However, with such a thin sleeve and only 0.75 - 0.3 - 0.3 mm worth of incorrect wafer (again, assuming 0.1 mm tolerance between the sleeves), that would leave you 0.05 - 0.1 mm worth of metal to prevent brute force attack. As that's nearly the same as your lock tolerance, it should be to make sleeves bend enough to make the missing space. Again, if you wouldn't need any tolerances to make this lock work in reality, things would be much easier. In reality, for a mass produced lock, you need pretty high tolerances for the parts and even with hand manufactured parts you would need some tolerances to deal with wear and dirt in the lock (at very minimum, you'll have oiled metal parts sliding against each other which will result in metal particles moving in oil between the parts).
@jimsmindonline
Жыл бұрын
@@MikkoRantalainen I think I understand what you mean! I agree with you. I'ta a clever idea. I agree that brute force is probably always going to be a problem with this design. It's such beautiful machining, it would be a shame to test that theory!
@crowsenpai5625
Жыл бұрын
I’ll believe it’s unpickable if it stops Lockpicking Lawyer.
@andrewgardner1543
2 жыл бұрын
Can the outer sleeve be tensioned? Maybe a Euro thumb turn bypass tool or something similar.🤔
@MikkoRantalainen
Жыл бұрын
It seems that the thick bar that connects core to the outermost sleeve is designed to fully block the keyway. If it doesn't do it currently, it would be an easy fix for this issue.
@Maetsack
2 жыл бұрын
Do you think the tiny wafers and intricacies of the lock itself would make it unreliable over time?
@thelockpickinglebowski633
2 жыл бұрын
I would think if the key bitting must be extremely precise, then even a small amount of wear would make it inoperable. But I'm not exactly sure.
@Maetsack
2 жыл бұрын
@@thelockpickinglebowski633 Pretty much what I was thinking - too bad.
@MikkoRantalainen
Жыл бұрын
@@thelockpickinglebowski633 I think it would need to use pretty high steps, maybe equal to Schage 0, 2, 5, 7, 9 or so because you must have shearline between every possible key cut depth to avoid decoding from the shearline depths. And because you cannot go 0-7 or 0-9 between two consequtive stacks for a single key, the practical amount of possible keys is way below 1000. As I see it, the only practical fix is to increase the pin count a lot (like 8-10 pins) to make it usable in real world so that birthday attack doesn't result in two different people having exact same key by accident too often.
@_aullik
Ай бұрын
Why am i only seeing this now?.... This lock is super easy to decode with a lishi tool. Find the first (lowest) false set. At this point the intermediate pin is either directly below or directly above the inner sheer line. Now you can test out which one it is by just lifting each stack the height of one wafer. If you inner core locks up the intermediate pin was below, if not it was above. Now you have decoded the lock.
@lukereeves4448
2 жыл бұрын
This is brilliant!
@syx3s
7 ай бұрын
simple enough i think it could work really well. seems like it would be a higher price point lock, so the durability of the wafers could easily be solved by using more durable metal for them.
@stevenmason9931
2 жыл бұрын
As thin as the parts are, I wonder how many times of opening before the mechanisms "wear out of alignment".
@onetouch1556
Жыл бұрын
Very nice vid i really enjoyed every second of it
@lunstee
Жыл бұрын
I had a very similar idea a year ago, based on the Corbin master-ring lock. The Corbin master-ring lock by itself already has a multitude of pin height combinations that match shear lines on all pins amongst which only two will actually open the lock - one for each of the two shear lines. I added multiple wafers on the false shear line, and a similar limited-play connection between plug and intermediate cylinder as what's between the plug and sleeve here. What stopped me from proceeding beyond that was that I didn't have what I felt was a satisfactory means to reset everything when re-locking the cylinder. The detent pin at the back of this lock was something I'd considered, but even with that, this lock may have the same shortcoming that I stopped at. You didn't show using the actual key to both unlock and re-lock this lock. The turning the key in either direction, the sleeve lags the plug. This is fine when unlocking, as the false shear line is exercised first before tensioning the main shear line(s), at which point the upper pins are no longer manipulable. However, to re-lock things, the key would need to turn past the locked position in order to return the sleeve to its home position, and no further before coming back to the home position. A detent would give tactile feedback for when the sleeve has made it home, but if the detent doesn't have a capture range wider than the play of the plug/sleeve coupling, then a little overshoot/return wiggle may be required when re-locking. I suppose it's likely this lock has a wide enough detent range to deal with that, but it feels like a more fragile solution that I was happy with in my own efforts. I think it also bears mention, that my dabbling in this space was very much inspired by the Shane Wighton's (of the Stuff Made Here youtube channel) unpickable lock videos which presented the idea of separating the setting of pin heights from tensioning of the working shear line. I think it's highly likely that both this lock and the Enclave share this source of inspiration, and if that's the case, I would find it very disappointing if they don't give Shane the credit he deserves; I haven't seen him acknowledged, but hope they did and simply missed it.
@andypughtube
Жыл бұрын
I will freely admit that I was inspired by Shane Wighton's lock, as I suspect were many other "delayed authentication" designs (that's a phrase I found in this KZitem chat, and it's a good description). I had been thinking about coaxial cylinder lock designs since my student days (in the 1980s) but had never thought of anything that they were good for until I saw his video. If you look at my animation video (kzitem.info/news/bejne/uKegqGSpmqGmgY4) then the first link in the description text is the Shane Wighton lock video. As you have observed, the detente has to have the same capture range as the free play in the coupling, or the lock is rather inconvenient to use. I would have liked rather more free play (to _completely_ cut off the outer pins from the core) but haven't yet come up with a practical implementation for the detente to handle that. (I have an _impractical_ one, using a rectangular shaft and a 3mm OD x 1mm bore ball-bearing, and a rectangular broached hole in the lock body, but that's not going to work in a commercial lock, I don't think.)
@shark70007000
2 жыл бұрын
Let's see if LPL can pick it.
@cypresscustoms
2 жыл бұрын
The Lock Picking Lawyer defeated it with a cucumber and some chopsticks.......maybe that was a different lock! Very cool design. Would love to see LPL give it a go also.
@djknat
2 жыл бұрын
Not the same as the lock by Andy Pugh. It was a standard ABUS' which he's defeated many times.
@1pcfred
Жыл бұрын
It could have been a fluke. He'd better do it again.
@RASAllusion
2 жыл бұрын
Very Cool design.
@drakedarkest1627
Жыл бұрын
What does the lock picking lawyer says
@bigjd2k
Жыл бұрын
Nice idea but any wear of the barrel or sleeve and the wafers will find the gap and jam up. Very nicely made though!
@ethandeeds1166
Жыл бұрын
This is the lockpicking lawyer and today i have a lock that claims to be unpickable, an you all know how much i find that claim to be usually misleading
@stephanc7192
2 жыл бұрын
Wow Well done
@trekgod3
Жыл бұрын
Send it to Lock Picking Lawyer
@lokichoki_
2 жыл бұрын
City rake and tryout keys. Possible tensioning by going through the bottom of inner core or by jamming or wedging the two cores together
@norwegiangadgetman
2 жыл бұрын
The best way to attack it is if the bar shown at 12:45 and onwards can be reached though the keyhole. If you can tension that it might be possible to pick it.
@oracla
Жыл бұрын
That sleeve is static, it never turns. So it doesn't help to tension it.
@oracla
Жыл бұрын
Sorry, I made a mistake. I actually agree with you. In addition, I think a strategy with oversetting all of the pins first could also be useful.
@oracla
Жыл бұрын
On third thought... :D that bar does not help. It is fixed to the core. So if you are tensioning the core, you are tensioning that bar.
@norwegiangadgetman
Жыл бұрын
@@oracla Well, so much for that idea...
@asailijhijr
Жыл бұрын
Is this prototype vulnerable to a comb picking attack? The diagram/animation certainly shows ample space above each pin stack.
@muatok9904
2 жыл бұрын
What about comb picking is it possible to lift the thick wafer past the top shearline and will a double stack of thin wafers fit between the center shearline
@Ray_HD
Жыл бұрын
Give it to the lockpicking lawyer
@tipenengapuhi
2 жыл бұрын
Priyer has commented on Andy Pughs video "The Making of My Custom Lock", and said he has a patent pending on this lock design. He said he's expecting it to be finalised in the next few weeks. Many of us older members on UKLS will recall Priyer discussing his design with members and a link to a video demonstrating it's operation which is why Andy Pughs animation video jogged my aging memory somewhat 🙂. Brian Hignetts comment on this video is worth a read. He gives a Locksmiths perspective on the practicalities of implementing this type of design in the field.
@andypughtube
2 жыл бұрын
When I first made contact with the TOOOL UK Discord I was made aware of the pre-existing Priyer design. The version that I have seen is really very different in its concept to mine, it just seems superficially similar as it has coaxial cylinders. (Unless Priyer went on to add a fixed intermediate sleeve, of course)
@mattoliverau
2 жыл бұрын
Can a wafer be placed before the sleeve pin. Otherwise, don't you just have to set it the to the first sheer/top line? Also, seeing as there is a mechanism connecting to inner and outer plug and sleeve, is there a way to tension the outta sleeve as well, I wonder if that'll make it more pickable.
@jonored
Жыл бұрын
The way I see it, it looks like it's actually two wafer thicknesses above the first shear line, which will pass trivial inspection for the attack you just proposed but isn't really _better_. You need to lift the plug into the sleeve, but as it's the first thing in the stack and a fixed thickness that seems like it should be doable.
@jaycal1920
Жыл бұрын
The Lock picking Lawyer has left the chat.
@jakobrosenqvist4691
Жыл бұрын
Could overlifting and carefully raking them down possibly work?
@Taz_H
Жыл бұрын
Could you use different height blank keys, like a straight rectangle, to push every pin up to a specific position at the same time while tensioning and vibrate the lock until they fall into place? Trial and error with different height blanks until it works. In my mind you'd avoid the multiple false sets by starting backwards instead of trying to pick upwards.
@soulwynd
Жыл бұрын
Solution: You need to tention from the bar on the end of the keyhole. Perhaps with a punching tool or a bendable long bar, that way you tention the outer sleeve.
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
Nice idea
@soulwynd
Жыл бұрын
@@LockNoob Hope you try it. However punching into the bar is potentially destructive for the lock.
@noyza2132
Жыл бұрын
isn't it possible to pick this by tensioning the outer core? if you can somehow get a tension rod to the back where the coupling bar is you can pick it normally
@semtex2987
2 жыл бұрын
This is a great design. Perhaps on a false shearline, brute force will turn the cylinder.
@killerbski9412
Жыл бұрын
What if you could reach all the way into the back of the keyway and tension the outer core and leave the inner core loose. Then try pins until you find the true shear lines.
@rubenheymans1988
Жыл бұрын
can lpl pick it?
@billgray7914
Жыл бұрын
Would like to know if they are going to use hardened pins and pins to make it hard to drill
@Silentsouls
Жыл бұрын
If i do not tention, but push all the pins up, at the same time as high as they can go, and then turn the core. Then i have wafers in the shear line. does that work
@aidenorr9536
5 ай бұрын
McNally doesn’t care if it’s unpickable. He will open it with itself.
@andypughtube
3 ай бұрын
He has had one for well over a year. As far as I know, he hasn't picked it. He hasn't made a video, at least. And he hasn't sent it back when asked.
@miguelfernandez2325
Жыл бұрын
It's a beautifully engineered lock but what your calling wafers are actually master pins and by the way those master pins could be a lot thinner than those. The smaller master pins are .015 millimeters
@LockNoob
Жыл бұрын
They are wafers, used for master keying normally
@miguelfernandez2325
Жыл бұрын
@@LockNoob That's not what the lab pinning kit calls them, but ok. Wafers is a reference to car door locks and ignitions, as far as i know.
Пікірлер: 466