I've built two engines with flat tappet failures: AMC 401, circa 1990. Ford 390FE, circa 1995. Both had Crane Cam & lifters. Both engines were built with break in oil additives and correct engine break in procedures. Both engines suffered flat tappet failure almost immediately. This was extremely frustrating to me as these engines were common builds where I had never had a problem before using the same parts, oils and techniques, but earlier, in the 80s. When I screw up, I want to understand WTH I did wrong, so I don't do it again. Literally for decades, I have been beating myself for what I did wrong on my best friend's AMC 401 and my boss' 390. Thanks to Powell Machining for convincing me, and other conscientious engine builders, that we very likely didn't screw up. Well done gentlemen.
@williamfowler616
8 ай бұрын
i experienced the same thing, i failed to run the correct oil for flat tappets, you have to run delvac extreme diesel oil of rotella four diesel oil, it has the additives the flat tappet needs to survive.
@mrfarts5176
7 ай бұрын
Can you believe this guy. He will make as many videos on this as we demand. He is our youtube puppet to be commanded.
@TimothyArnott-m7z
10 ай бұрын
Hey Daniel, Tim here, THAT sir, was an AWESOME, in depth, look at what the hell is happening......switching to a roller wud be GREAT for me, but the cost, is just to much (I have a Pontiac 455).....I haven't had any flat tappet issues yet, but my stuff has been together for a good while, I have a bigger flat tappet custom ground cam I cud stuff in, that I purchased a cupla yrs ago, but I'm hesitant, cuz of all the BS......to switch to a roller set up on my Poncho, wud be drastically higher cost than any SBC, SBF, etc....cam, lifters, then pushrods, wud end up being close to $2k.....OMG!!!... sorry I digress, but this vid explained ALOT!!!..and I'm a machinist need type, and understood all ur topics...TY sir!!!...ENJOYED IT!!! PEACE to you sir!!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Ty sir
@yarrdayarrdayarrda
10 ай бұрын
If your current cam is working, LEAVE IT IN and don't change what you're doing. That new cam might work, or could be a guaranteed failure, such is the Russian roulette world of flat tappets.
@TimothyArnott-m7z
10 ай бұрын
@yarrdayarrdayarrda thanks my brother, I appreciate ur input......that's been my mind set, but the bigger dude cud net me 10:90's on pump gas.....that's my only gripe.....I'm at 7 flat in 1/8, 11:0's in qtr, just kinda want that 10:90 in my pocket.....but I have to agree, ain't worth blowing it up.......car is strong, and consistent...
@randykubick
10 ай бұрын
cool vid - going with oversized valves and higher lift cams causes a lot of lifter-cam slap. Today’s v8 rpm 1,000-3,000 more than the past - takes a lot of valve spring pressure to keep lifters from flying off the cam lobe - check your failing cams you’ll see a lot of chatter damage on the down slope of the cam lobes because the valve spring is struggling to close the valve and push the lifter and pushrod back down. Lifter-cam slap can also show up at moderate rpm’s if engine has bad valve spring harmonics. Every moving part in a v8 is moved to a its next position by mechanical movement but the valve train (when closing) is only moved by the valve springs. thx
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
"Lifter slap" that's a new one....
@danhillman4523
7 ай бұрын
It's concentricity afa stem to seat goes. Anyway. I think you know your stuff. I did this shit for over 40 years, so I do have an opinion. Yes, the roller is a better system due to the lack of friction and associated stress and flexion. I am simply saying that the flat tappet is the old standard and it worked for decades. Best to you all! *edit* Also make sure you prime your oil pump prior to initial startup. Even on a broken in motor, I never even hit the accelerator pumps until the oil pressure comes up.
@VinnyMartello
10 ай бұрын
I actually was able to get a phone call with an engineer at COMP cams. He was adamant that it’s YOUR fault. You didn’t use the right oil and you didn’t do the break in properly but it could not possibly be our quality control!!!
@murphystreeter
10 ай бұрын
Ok brother.....love ya but you're killin me!!!! I fell asleep twice. Your grinds are fine, your lifters are fine.....the problem is in the oil. Roller works because it doesn't require the lifter to rotate. The rollers fail too in engines with high idle hours (service trucks). We have to convince folks to use additives. Lucas works fine for me. Something sticky. There has to be "grab" between the lobe and lifter. Put a paint mark on each lifter and roll it over to ensure rotation. Or switch everything to roller. Hate that you've had to deal with this mess as a small business. I feel the struggle.
@drcolster
10 ай бұрын
Here in Australia, when we us American Flat Tappets, solid or hydraulic - WE HAVE PROBLEMS.. We use Australian Flat Tappets- we don't have problems..
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Interesting
@drcolster
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinct the biggest headache was when the zinc was taken out of oils, and they never said anything..
@user-Dr.
10 ай бұрын
In our country we have leadership in place that is shutting down our steel manufacture as fast as possible and converting us to Chinese scrap, just maybe you have a little smarter people down there running things.
@amateurism1
10 ай бұрын
Flat tappet lifters, vacuum tubes, and elected officials, we just don’t make ‘em like we used to… sad
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
1000%
@fratzogmopars
10 ай бұрын
That’s because the Chinese have a hand in all of it, especially the politicians.
@docsmallblock6584
10 ай бұрын
I know, we used to change cams all the time with never a failure! And as a person who still uses vacuum tubes, I know what your saying!
@VinnyMartello
10 ай бұрын
Hahahahaha
@mikebrown4429
10 ай бұрын
Do you make gen 3 amc roller cams ?
@codyhollinger6531
10 ай бұрын
This is why we all should use smaller shops . This man cares and knows he can't make a living sending out bad products. After 3 bad experiences with the big guys I went back to my local grinder problem solved!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Absolutely 💯
@ashqelon7267
10 ай бұрын
My exposure to this whole thing is My friend in Washington has a cam grinding shop tells me yes he is seeing exact same thing , he actually grinds lifters too . Im going roller in my 401 AMC though. He said yet the hardness isn't the issue.. He has maybe 40 years experiences in cam shops as employee and Owner on them seen and knowns it all. We had a candid conversation and he thinks it has to be the lubrication . I worked for him in a machine shop in the 70-80's, and we did tones of engines, all kinds Just throw it in and drive around the block and your engine if "broken in ready for 200K miles. Never lost one cam and never needed to 2000RPM for 30 minutes routines either. So the factor we all know is, " oil chemistry has changed!
@mikedonzero2692
9 күн бұрын
@@ashqelon7267 your correct it's certainly a factor.
@fomoco173
10 ай бұрын
I believe you hit the nail on the head with one word, "Metallurgy". During the 60s-80s I've broken in countless flat tappet cams, and only had an issue with literally a hand full. But if you think about the decline of the US steel industry from the mid 70s to its peak decline in the late 80s it has to make you think, especially since the flat tappet issues really became prevalent in the 90s. I totally agree with what you've found as far as lifter machining and finnish issues, and believe the it is more critical because of the "quality" of steel today, and we all know where the vast majority of steel is manufactured today. I enjoy your videos, Thank you Sir!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Absolutely
@howabouthetruth2157
10 ай бұрын
The reason for such widespread poor quality in flat tappet lifters is simple: Way back in the day, and for decades, ALL mass produced engines used flat tappet cams, so the manufacturers of lifters for flat tappet cams HAD TO keep quality and quality control extremely high. Any lifter manufacturer who failed to do this for all of the major auto makers would've lost all of their business........and would be put completely out of business. But when all of the auto makers started transitioning over to roller cams, to the point NONE OF THEM ( to my knowledge ) are using flat tappet cams in quite some time, the major liability against the lifter manufacturers ( for flat tappet systems ) also went away. This means the overwhelming vast majority of business for lifter manufacturers is for roller lifters. Even though flat tappet engines are still popular among hot rodders, racers, and everyday enthusiasts who want to build or restore engines using flat tappet cams, they still only make up a tiny percentage when compared to all of the big auto makers who literally have millions of engines built that require roller cams. There isn't a single auto maker today who demands lifters in their new engines that use a flat tappet system. So the lifter manufacturers simply don't have the widespread liability as they did back when they had to step up to the plate & mass produce lifters for flat tappet cams way back in the day. Way back then, if a lifter manufacturer shipped bad lifters for flat tappet cams to any major auto maker, that major auto maker would've had the time & money to sue the hell out of them. But nowadays, it's down to mere individual engine builders & machinists, and they pose no real threat to the lifter manufacturers in the way of "massive lawsuits". So the makers of these lifters for flat tappet cams nowadays simply don't give a damn about "the little guys" everywhere. Lawsuits are basically won or lost by how much time, effort, and MONEY you have to put up for a legal battle in court. The lifter manufacturers have far more money to defend themselves in court against "some individual engine builder or machine shop". It's a damned shame.
@budehrmann5902
10 ай бұрын
After seeing the magnified view finer and the amount of junk in the material, I agree that it is a metallurgical problem. I am a retired Metallurgist and worked in the 70s in the laboratory of a company making landing gears for commercial and military aircraft. All of the steel forgings we used were of single or double vacuum arc remelt alloy steel. We never saw junk in the metallurgical samples like I see in this video. Now I do agree with Daniel that it can be imbedded from the grinding process due to the oil or wheel being contaminated by grinding a lifter that was made from a crappy batch of steel. These particles of junk can be hard as diamond and cause the accelerated wear. The big problem is there is no traceability of heats of material to parts like we had in the aircraft industry. That is why the failures are so random and scattered over all of the manufactures. Daniel's answer is the only one. Stop using/mandating flat tappet cams.
@howabouthetruth2157
10 ай бұрын
Yes, I agree with you guys 100%, the evidence is right there for us all to see. But THE REASON this is happening, is because the vast majority of business with these lifter manufacturers is with the major auto makers, and they all use roller cams nowadays. Not to mention all of the individuals who also chose to go with roller cams. That leaves the market for lifters to be made for flat tappet very small by comparison. The lifter manufacturers HAD TO hold flat tappet lifters to much higher standards back when all of the auto makers were using flat tappet cams. But that's old history now, and these lifter manufacturers know that individual engine builders & machinists don't have the power that the major auto makers do........so they get away with murder. If the major auto makers were still using flat tappet cams, do ya honestly believe this problem would still exist with lifters like we're seeing everywhere now? HELL NO. The major auto makers have the power to sue the living sh*t out of them. But the little guy doesn't. @@budehrmann5902
@randykubick
10 ай бұрын
totally agree - i have had 2 very mild 4 barrel cams go flat in less than 50 miles each - both Isky cams with cheap SBI hyd lifters. Used Lucas ZDDP break-in oil. Cam held up but lifters just disintegrated like the metal in the lifter was sintered and not well grained iron. Ran another Isky cam with expensive Melling hyd lifters (same exact engine and Lucas break-in) - no problems. Made in America doesn’t mean the steel that the lifter was machined/ground with was made in America.
@strokermaverick
10 ай бұрын
It's, almost like, the cam manufacturers want people to switch to roller. They, never admit fault, with flat tappet stuff. They, know what's going on!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
No they don't, they're clueless as everyone else, I have talked to them...
@MassDick-ut8lm
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinc I'm gonna help hopefully tha last stage was a acid cleaner sorta but it's nasty for environment ive said too much down the rabbit blue pill red pill swamp U go
@pontiac411
10 ай бұрын
2 issues that I see is many people run a modern detergent oil and add an additive to it, we always ran a non detergent oil with GM Eos additive. The other problem I see is that many people nowadays think more Spring pressure is better and it's not good for flat tap at cams.
@dennisyoung4631
10 ай бұрын
Is it the microstructure? Should an alloy like “O6 graphitic tool steel” be used for lifters? Should cams have individual oil jets, one per lobe?
@sherwinstaudt1881
10 ай бұрын
@@dennisyoung4631years ago on Chevrolet small-block all the connecting rods on the journal side had squirt holes, when the rod came around it was Squirt oil on the bottom of the cylinder wall and on the camshaft, when they done away with the holes in the rod bearings and the squirt holes in the rods a lot of camshafts were going bad. I still machine my rods for small block Chevrolet with squirt holes, if I cannot find bearings with the factory hole I will machine holes in the bearings, do some research on Old School small blocks it's funny that they ran over 200,000 Mi without no problem with flat tappet camshaft.
@sbf_fox2434
10 ай бұрын
Can you recommend a shop that currently re-faces lifters? Is the new owner of your tappet grinder offering this service?
@prtyof4156
10 ай бұрын
Might try Mirco Machine out of New Mexico. I believe he still does
@Anarchy-Is-Liberty
10 ай бұрын
Problem I have, I can't afford an extra $1500-$2000 just for a camshaft, lifters and springs!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
If the ft fails and sens iron through you bearings it's gonna cost alot more than a roller cam...
@anthonyking4387
2 ай бұрын
Been there! Then again, just a bushing lifter cost that much!
@apachebill
10 ай бұрын
I hope all the lifter manufacturers see this video and friggin DO something! I run flat tappet only. Run Rhoads Lifters only. How do they do it? Never a failure in 40 years. On a Pontiac I can run any lift, duration and LSA I want, break them in under full 320 LB open spring pressure with only VR1 oil and assembly lube and they work every time. How does Jack Rhoads do it? My lifters always come in beautifully ground to a point in the middle. Overlapping circular swirl pattern. Kinda looks like a flower 🌺 when you look at them. Why can no one else do it anymore? I don’t have $2500 a motor to go in with rollers. So Me, Jack Rhoads, Harland, and The Smith Bros. are gonna keep “clicking” down the road in a flat tappet VVT 461 Pontiac. With absolute valve train control. They way we have for 40 years. Recon I best go buy me some cams and lifters before er’body quits. Never run a lifter that doesn’t have a snap ring keeper. Staples are for paper! And, thank you for going further than anyone else’s to bring truth and light to the issue! 😉
@Haffschlappe
4 ай бұрын
RHOADS MADE IN USA
@Myvintageiron7512
24 күн бұрын
It cost more than 1000 to rebuild your engine a second time if you haven’t had a flat tappet failure your not building many engines
@powellmachineinc
23 күн бұрын
Absolutely
@0utc4st1985
6 ай бұрын
Auto part quality has been nosediving for a decade now. Ive seen multiple AC Delco brand new EGR valves fail within a hundred miles, struts blowing out every 30k miles, etc. Usually it is made in China, but it is sad to see the quality crisis reaching even internal engine parts.......
@Myvintageiron7512
10 ай бұрын
turned my back on flat tappet cams 4 years ago go roller or go home
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Yep!
@3029dz
9 ай бұрын
As a Toolmaker with 30 years experience. I have seen this on multiple occasions. What you describe as "Flaking" is what is called Lamination. This can be in the Raw material from the pour at the steel mill OR it can be created in the HEAT TREATING. This looks to me being the Heat Treating at too HIGH a temperature which causes Decarboning spots or patches. These test at the correct Rockwell hardness but are actually brittle and can separate from it like flakes. Ford currently has a Recall on Godzilla engines for the rollers flaking/delaminating in less than 10k miles.
@arturozarate1752
5 ай бұрын
Yes indeed on the Ford Godzilla.
@deanmoser5907
10 ай бұрын
This was the video that had to be made. It had to be made by an experienced knowledgeable person. Good job, one of the best videos I've seen.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@Jim-gs3jo
10 ай бұрын
I'm with you 100%. One day last spring I took two identical flat tappet spec engines to the dyno for cam break-in and tuning. We did everything the same on both engines. One engine did fine, and the other engine wiped out a few cam lobes and lifters during break-in. The sanctioning body doesn't want to hear it.
@chipschweiss
10 ай бұрын
I'm sorry to hear you've gotten out of the flat tappet business. I'm probably resposible for some of the people calling you because I always sent them your way when the were worried about building a flat tappet cam motor. You are the only person I've seen actually look at all the machining specs and not just blame the heat treat or break in proceedure. It is a shame what has become of this industry. If the manufactures don't want to make a quality flat tappet they need get out of the business, let the market shrink and the cost go up or the those willing to do a proper job. There are too many high value engines that have no roller option. People building those engine will pay what ever it takes to get a quality cam and lifters.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for you bissness!
@111000100101001
10 ай бұрын
Coming from a roller bearing background, you are correct sir regarding lifter crowning and surface finish. The crown also helps prevent “end effect” and balances the subsurface stress across the contact area. Grind burn is another boogie man that is hard to detect but will cause early failure. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, you and your son are true Craftsmen that not only know How but also Why!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
I appreciate your comment! Good info
@bozo28able
9 ай бұрын
Correct grind burn causes surface cracks.
@pr3modeling239
10 ай бұрын
Here's an experience i had many years ago: building an engine for a buddy's dirt-track stocker: he finished 3rd in points for the season with a seasoned short-block that had served duty for a few years in his cousins B-mod... He melted some pistons after the last race of the season, necessitating a rebuild. Sent the block off to a (supposedly) reputable machine shop to get out checked out, trued up and gotten ready to go... Went to put it all together and set the valves and.... something wasn't quite right. Way different settings from front to back on the rocker adjustments. And even worse, more different from bank to bank. What we ended up figuring out, after much cussing, finageling and measuring, was not only did both deck surfaces run uphill, one side front to back and the other side back to front, but the cam bore was offset to one side of the block by nearly 1/8"!!!! And that was from the factory from Chevrolet! Smokey Yunick, in his chevy engine builder's Bible, said maybe one in every 8 factory chevy heads was actually worth building due to casting and machining issues... after that experience, i believe him. Now what's crazier... I made a set of custom pushrods to "fix" the valvetrain issues on that engine. Literally hand made every pushrod to center the adjustments. Every single one of them was different. I built that engine in 2012. He ran it in his stock car for one season, then we pulled it and stuck it in his square body chevy truck where it regularly sees 8,000 RPM beatings to this day... with some severely F'd up valvetrain geometry going on. Point is, those old castings weren't always great. Hence the need for the "tolerances" and the crown you were talking about.
@darkdaysahead5079
9 ай бұрын
First rule with flat tappet lifters, use roller instead. 😂
@dirtlump
10 ай бұрын
What I could never figure out is WHY the incidence of Flat Tappet problems seemed to begin skyrocketing a few years back ? I mean we used to hear of a few ? But then it was like a light switch being flipped somewhere and failures went through the roof ? Just seemed that way to me anyways ?
@arthurking6549
10 ай бұрын
Lubrication degradation
@timmer2896
10 ай бұрын
Ya yer right , remember back in the ‘80s , I was just a small shop but sold hundreds and hundreds of cams and lifters for small chevs and I can only remember havin like 2 or3 complaints. And we were sellin cam, lifters timing set and gaskets for 150 bucks . But like you said , what the hell happened all of a sudden .
@Ever443
10 ай бұрын
Combination of oil additive changes by the EPA, cheap lifters from foreign countries, and poor quality control by cam manufacturers, and workers that don’t care about quality. Jmo
@yurimodin7333
10 ай бұрын
my guess is everyone went to CNC machines and they just put a "button pusher" in there to operate it. If everyone is doing this its easy to stack errors in taper, lifter crown, etc etc. Before everything was done on a CNC an actual machinist had to watch that dial indicator to make sure it stayed in spec and then they QC checked it after it was done as well. Today its just "oh the CNC does all the work".
@andrewshuford
9 ай бұрын
Break-in procedure 50% proper lash adjustment the other 50% If someone has a failure it's simply self-inflicted. Dumbassery is real Lol 😁
@hydroy1
10 ай бұрын
Something to think about, I been building hydraulic lifter camshaft motors since the 70s and to date I have had zero cam or lifter issues! ZERO ! NONE ! . Why is that ? My opinion is I say it's a issue of not using enough of the black molly cam brake in grease in the correct areas as there is no such thing as to much of it. Fist off the cam kit only gives you 1 very small packet of the black Molly brake in grease. (that's clearly NOT enough) add to that most people don't use it in the correct areas of the cam lobe or lifter face. I always buy and use a pint can full of the black molly cam brake in grease (Isky is good) that has a ton more zinc in it. I see people on net that only use assembly lube and not use the black molly grease with extra zinc at all, OR watch them fail to put black grease on heavy enough on or not correctly. That plus the biggest word in all engine building is CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN ! You can not just slap a motor tougher in a SAND BOX and expect it to live very long ! I always wash every part and blow each out over 4 times and then lay everything out on a brand new white silk sheet (call me crazy) then I wash everything AGAIN ! for a 5th or 6th time each time blowing everything out with high pressure air till totally dry. Yes it takes more time to assemble, but my motors seem to say tougher when others fail. True I am old school machinist, and I STILL soak all my lifters in oil over night and pump them up one at a time by hand, and yes I DO pre oil the entire motor with a drill just before Install the distributor, call me over kill, but bottom line I just installed my totally rebuilt 67 Vette 327 in my daily driver with a hyd. lifter cam that now has 7,000 miles on it with 65 pounds of oil pressure & NO ISSUES and to me, that's what is all about.
@FloydODB
10 ай бұрын
why was flat tappet never a problem for 40+ years. now ....that our machine work is more precise than ever...we have these issues. manufacturers! and they don't care if your cam and lifters make it 10 minutes. and neither do the wholesalers. leaving the builder or the owner eating the cost. In the end we have to tell the costumers we can't do it twice for free. I have only seen metallurgy a problem in OEM...massed produced stuff.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
They have been a problem multiple times in history, I remember it
@johnteague756
10 ай бұрын
Hate to see you stop FT videos, but I definitely understand why. But you have been the only one that I believed because you explained everything so well and you backed it up with testing that you showed. Thanks menny times over for your efforts.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Ty! Yeah we got to make Money to stay in biz and can't do that with ft work
@jerryhatrick5860
9 ай бұрын
So. For nao many years of engines living 200k plus miles. They just got lucky with flat tappers not machine matching components and using 10/40 or 20/50 oil? They just got lucky and the engine lasted? I'm still on the fence on this shit.. . Bottom line is wanna make ho use roller lifters.. Want an under engineereding life engine use flat tappet. Back then if someone wanted to build ho those cams and lift tgid changed to roller anyway. And also. Wth are roller lifters in he is and ls engines also failing out of the factory. All this has done is create more questions for me.
@pickeringautoandperformace8266
7 ай бұрын
Mr Powell a question and some advice if you can. First iam 60yrs old been wrenching for 40 yrs so i lived threw the 80's with GM's 305 popcorn popper cam failures but we both know those failures came way into miles not start up or break in failure like is going on today... So i built a nice 355 that i assembled a couple months ago for one of my classics iam restoring my question is before this engine is even fired should i just come to face reality that either the flat tappet cam failure issues today are either cam issues or lifer issues which in my case i installed a Comp Cams muther thumper and a set of there lifters engine has not been fired yet so my question is for the cost of a set of link bar lifters, rollor cam and other ness parts if it were you and in this case iam not dealing with one of my customers but this engine is for myself would you just bite the bullet and tear it back down and convert to rollor or take that start up and break in procure with fingers crossed... If going rollor what would you recommend for a cam grind for a mild 355 or maybe a roller with similar profile or lift and duration crossed over to a roller of close cam specs to the mutha thumper?. If iam understanding you correctly as you are very proffesional and do not call out the companys so my final question is are these flat tappet cam failures because of overseas production or just a combo of all of the above... Thank You Fred
@raystormont
9 ай бұрын
I will not do flat tappet any longer. I just returned cummins 6BT main and rod berings in that came in cummins box that said made in China rebought clevite for US made. New cams eat themselves in about 1-2 minutes with china lifters must be the metal.
@mikegreer9041
10 ай бұрын
I've never had a failure, but i use stock ratio rockers and stock springs on my stuff, mostly because im cheap. But i believe alot of the failures seen are people using high ratio rockers and or heavy springs. Also, there's alot of social media mechanics that think they know what their doing, and when they find they don't, it goes viral.
@jonellwanger7258
10 ай бұрын
🤣🤣🤣. So what about the 1000’s of cams that failed on STOCK LIFTERS AND SPRINGS!! You talk about people on social media talking about stuff they don’t know, and here you are, talking on social media on something you don’t know about. No, a lot of the failures are NOT on high ratio rockers and high spring rates, most people use “break in springs” (springs that are stock pressures) when breaking in. So they would NOT HAVE spring pressure being an issue. Stop talking on social about things you don’t understand! Especially when you call others out for doing the same!! LMAO. WOW. the lack of self awareness!!
@MrSticks9999
10 ай бұрын
I agree. It has a lot to do with spring pressures . . and all these other small issues are exaggerated.
@drcolster
10 ай бұрын
If you need to make 500 to 1000 hp using a flat tappet, you cant use stock rockers and springs..
@VinnyMartello
10 ай бұрын
I’ve had two cam failures on a stock V8 making 300hp and having less than .500 lift and stage 1 springs with stock rocker ratio.
@MrSticks9999
10 ай бұрын
@@VinnyMartello You're doing something wrong
@jeremycable51
6 ай бұрын
I’d like to come sweep up chips and just do grunt work the amount of knowledge that could be achieved in your shop would be incrediblely useful
@petercunningham3469
10 ай бұрын
The old Grey iron just aint what it used to be 😊
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
No doubt
@rondye9398
10 ай бұрын
Have a Cleveland Ford going together with a 1.8 ratio roller rocker 0n a .620 lift hydraulic flat tappet camshaft using beehive lifters. After seeing this video would it be beneficial to polish the lifter faces? I recently had another flat tappet cam fail.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
You can't polish and maintain the proper geometry
@mikelaumaillier9271
10 ай бұрын
Thanks for posting. Always enjoy the information you share. Concerning the cams, years ago I drove all kinds of junker cars. A few times, a lifter would go (click - click) so I would pull it out, go to one of my friend's garage and pick out an old lifter out of his scrap box that wasn't too worn, and stick it back in. Never had a problem with that, I would get another two or three years out of the car with no lifter problems. I don't think I wold want to do that today ?? Best Regards - Mike
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Right on
@DownHillgamer
9 ай бұрын
Yea we REFUSE to install flat tappets now, they just fuckin suck and we dont wana deal with the shit and end up destroying somones block cause the chinese lifter shit the bed
@andretorben9995
10 ай бұрын
Apart from designated race classes the only reason anyone would run a flat tappet is cost. I'm currently building an almost standard 340 Mopar and a roller cam is $900 and a set of hyd roller lifters is $1200 for basic ones (in Australia). That hurts !!!!!.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
That's insane, I can sell you a cam for 425, and lifters for 500 and shipping is probably 125.00
@toddbob55
3 ай бұрын
why would you build a junk mopar?
@kennedy98796
10 ай бұрын
iv built quit a few motors and never had a problem breaking in cams UNTIL i did a year or two ago. Two in one yr failed to break in properly on different motors. i talked to my neighbor that's a little older then me and his family owns a shop said he was seeing the same problems and we just blamed it on crap material and they we had seen the problem on different brands so im done and agree. rollers from here on out
@smittysrepair1
9 ай бұрын
Seems like a lot of this started back when the oil companies removed zinc from the oil. Before that I never had any issues.
@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259
10 ай бұрын
My search for flat tappet failures are why and how I discovered your channel.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Awesome, glad ur here!, we appreciate you
@williambarry8015
10 ай бұрын
I wonder if the lifters are made in those shops in Pakistan with dirt floors and worn out machines with sunstandard materials?
@ronaldredding8444
10 ай бұрын
is it because of the removal of zinc from our engine oils?
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
That is definitely a factor
@jimmy_olds
10 ай бұрын
Hey Daniel, I recently installed a Melling flat tappet cam and Comp’s new DLC lifters in a SBC. Broke in fine but ended up having to tear it down for an unrelated issue, the motor had about 3,000 miles on it. Those DLC lifter faces are so hard and smooth they barely spin. I posted some pics on my IG account, the lobe noses looked fine but the ramps and base circles have some strange wear patterns. My machinist inspected them and wasn’t worried, Muscle Car Solutions saw my pics and showed Comp while at Sema, they said it was normal. Kinda crazy though.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Yeah, lot's of people are having issues with the dlc
@carlpreston1680
10 ай бұрын
To slippery
@Midnight_Rider96
10 ай бұрын
Interesting, I've heard the dlc works well with hardened cams in dohc cam on bucket setups.
@jimmy_olds
10 ай бұрын
@@Midnight_Rider96 mine is working fine, just unusual wear on the cam. I bet I could swap the lifters around and it wouldn’t make a difference. I’ve posted pics on my IG account which is the same handle as it is here.
@fastinradfordable
10 ай бұрын
If it’s normal It’s literally NOT crazy…
@lazyhoundracing9621
10 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video. I had no idea some classes required flat tappet lifters.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Unfortunately
@mikewillett5076
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinc. Yeah but a lot of people can't afford to go roller. There have been some roller lifter failures. And for smaller cams (under about 280° advertised duration) a flat tappet is actually more aggressive (area under the curve). They should just do them right again like they're supposed to! Heck charge a slight bit more for the attention to detail!
@pontiac411
10 ай бұрын
The reason many of us want flat tappet cam's is because we don't want to spend a 1000 plus dollars for a roller cam and lifters, I personally have never lost a lobe on a flat target cam, and I find it interesting that there have been tens of MILLIONS of flat tappet comes that have worked flawlessly for decades.
@yurimodin7333
10 ай бұрын
I know it sucks but you can spend that $1,000 on the front end or spend it after the flat tappet trashes your new engine. This is why I specifically hunted down a factory roller cam block for my 350chev build and I can use oem style roller lifters. My 1975 Ford 460 is a different story, if I ever put a cam in it I will probobly have to just bend over and pay the extortion.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
You would only add about 400 or so to tje cost, not a 1000
@yurimodin7333
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinc you must be thinking of your cost as a machine shop not ours......I don't know of a set of retrofit roller lifters that are under $600.....but like I said in another post you can pay it the first time or the second time after the flat tappet fails.
@funkysawmanwright5077
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineincactually alot more than that to retrofit a roller cam!!!!! You need cam buttons and thrust bearings, adjustable valve train or custom length push rods because most later 460's have non adjustable valve train. Sorry not going to reinvent the wheel to build a stock 460
@apachebill
10 ай бұрын
@@funkysawmanwright5077. You forgot lifter bore braces. It costs $2500 to retrofit a Pontiac. And you can go into the forums and see roller lifter failure and where the big rollers rip the lifter bores out of the blocks. Roller is not a magic bullet. At all. It’s merely another, more costly avenue, with its own issues to navigate, that if done correctly, may yield a better result. That is a long, steep haul for a “Maybe”.
@george1la
10 ай бұрын
I am 76. I have been doing this for 60 years. In the past we just put in a cam and lifters with no problems. No special oil or any of this now. Recently I had a Summit cam go flat after about 1.5 years. I decided to put in a comp cams cam and spend a little extra money for no problems. One cam after another went flat immediately. Finally, after about 3 months I saw a video which mentioned Diamond Like Coating (DLC). On my 4th cam I called Summit and requested an exchange of normal lifters for my new cam to DLC lifters. They are only about $15.00 more. Suddenly, I have no more problems. I have had the lifters out as the head gaskets also went. They look like they came out of the box unused and the cam looks like it was polished. Look at the advertising Summit is now doing on DLC lifters. They work. It is so hard and slippery that it does not wear and just slips over the cam. They are using DLC on piston pins also. The coating does not wear, the metal underneath has to fail. Why not put DLC on crank journals like nitride? BUY DLC LIFTERS.
@ashqelon7267
10 ай бұрын
Yes, I just today learned about the DLC lifters. I Too recall many engines in the 70's 80's, we put cams in , 5 years in a machine shop and do not recall one cam failure, NO special oil, Nothing. I had a 0.575" Lift cam, duel springs in my 428, never once a problem. Ran like new always. Do fear the flat tappet setup is going the way of the dodo bird. It's Not too a big thing, rollers are reliable. Definitely more monies, a few block holes for a thrust plate addition, big deal. It's well known how to do this MOD stuff.
@ChuckHoltzclaw-d7y
10 ай бұрын
Can you spark out with a finer grit wheel to get a finer finish?was a toolmaker for30 years if had to do any thing that needed a shape or a finish we used finer great for the few thous.
@tracyamcneal9597
2 ай бұрын
Thank You Daniel for the explanation. Help me understand something please...High performance related engines don't use flat tappets correct? Aren't flat tappets original factory equipment (stock engines) for the most part? What is the reason to not go ROLLER? Cost or what? Why stick with a guaranteed ongoing problem rather than move to a roller?
@powellmachineinc
Ай бұрын
Money normally is why people try to run Ft cams
@kevinlarrick3285
10 ай бұрын
Great video we need more guys like you that care and do great work with cam and lifters I purchased a Howard cam kit for a big block Chevy. It lasted 40 minutes of run time. they said it was due to improper break in. Thanks for all you do for us racers
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
We appreciate you 🙏
@chrishensley6745
10 ай бұрын
Seems like what they all say and will not admit it.........remember years ago guys changing cams/lifters ....and did not even know you had to break -in the cam and lived a long time!!....sad times quality.
@halseyknox
10 ай бұрын
Have 70 F-250 that was ready for a rebuilt mild build FE installation. This was over a year ago. Thankfully while looking into different zinc break in additives I came across a few break in scenario's where guys were wiping out there engines. Well one blog led to another to where I was having sleepless nights in my build. Decided to put my installation plans on hold and not roll the dice. Started almost from scratch and spent close to 2500.00 to go with a Howard's cams and lifters roller set up. I still keep up on this scenario and know I made the right choice. Shame on all the name brand entities out there, most of them bought and sold to China ect., knowingly selling shoddy lifters to the public and letting them blindly go forward on there build just to have them destroy there engine during break in and flushing their hard earned money down the drain. If the industry doesn't want to sell flat tappet cams anymore then don't. Quit selling off your inventory with questionable lifters at the customers expense and grief.
@ashqelon7267
10 ай бұрын
@@halseyknox Adding ZDDK is a poor idea. The oil you mixed it with was NOT formulated to accept it, zinc and the detergents in other oils that are Not formulated for break in, particulate ions remove its ability to lubricate. Has a lot to do with chemistry..
@halseyknox
10 ай бұрын
I don't know how much sense your reply makes but at this point it doesn't matter in my scenario anymore
@craigbowers4047
10 ай бұрын
Precision Products is still offering lifters ground in-house with optional face oiling & Casidum coated for welded stellite camshafts, which ends up being more expensive than a steel core traditional roller setup. The chinese have done a great job of destroying real manufacturing by getting people to shop by price versus product quality.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Good luck getting pppc to even answer the ph....
@drcolster
10 ай бұрын
I don't think the answer is Roller cams.... They just have to make a QUALITY PRODUCT AGAIN ..!!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Lmk how that works out
@johnhaskell6251
10 ай бұрын
As a young man in a production rebuild shop, I too would grind tappets with an old grinder. The ways were so worn out I tightened them after each set. Mostly stovebolt Chevys, flathead 6 and 8's, of course every V8 too which didn't buy new. That machine would vibrate and shake all the way through. Those lifters were always rough and scratchy. Usually set at 3 which I believed was degrees. This was 60/80's and you know what, there wasn't a problem very often. These were all 60/70# seat force and say 220 open (?) I Those days no body cared because of the way old days formans. Just get it done. Some race stuff came in and we could get the finish better but just a different time, materials and the oils weren't very good but worked okay then. So different.
@msh6865
10 ай бұрын
Guys, if you must use a FT lifter, make sure your machine shop is honing your lifter bores, especially if you plan on running the new DLC treated lifters.
@dennisthomas4766
10 ай бұрын
GM HAD SOFT CAMSHAFTS ON THE SBC 350 back in the 1970's The cams are soft and not hard enough!!! I can remember years ago if a car had a collapsed lifter pull old lifter out put a new one in and send the car on its way without a problem now the cams are too soft and if the cams are soft you will have a problem just like Chevrolet did years ago!!!! Years ago I did a cam and lifters in a 75 Cadillac hearse it had 30,000 miles on it and lobes were wore off put a cam and lifter set in changed oil and filter and no more problems the funeral company that owned it ran the car another 10 years without a problem!!!!
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
We have debunked the "soft cams" on video
@scottrance-im7xz
8 ай бұрын
I have had lifters ground 40 years ago on an international Scout 304 V8 . It was more common place at the time to refurbish lifters . Well , I cant blame you guys for bailing out on the flat tappet cam and lifter ordeal . Interesting explanation of this subject in detail .Id concur too smooth a finish on lifter base or foot , causes the lifter to slide on the ramp , instead of proper rotation . Btw , think about synthetic oils and the additives to improve lubricity . The lifters are able to slide instead and diminished rotation is the result . Another example seen is GM and Dodge roller lifters with a destroyed roller , that looks like a flat tappet failure . The roller is flattened and cam lobe 8s destroyed . Roller slipping and not rolling . Roller is sliding on the cam lobe , not rolling . The engine oil and the lubricity factor must be looked at .
@hemifiedsixtyfour2813
10 ай бұрын
Can only recycle old VWs and American iron so many times, before its diluted into the crap they make today. Keep up the good work over there.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Ty sir!
@winglessprint
8 ай бұрын
Latest from Isky Technical Dept. "use Driven oil we have no flat tappet issues". "Penn grade 1 is reformulated and is not what Brad Penn was".
@powellmachineinc
8 ай бұрын
And....Bullet says driven is garbage and you need to use Lucas
@sjcottsi
Ай бұрын
The elephant in the room is lead. Zinc can never compensate for what lead was doing for decades. On the angle versus crown issue, if you have a perfect angle match the lifter face would be a shallow cone. The lobe would be trying to spin the lifter faster towards the center than towards the edge. It would be fighting itself. The ideal is a narrow contact area towards the edge but not on the edge.. That would give the most torque to rotate the lifter. A crown achieves this and compensates for manufacturing errors.
@powellmachineinc
Ай бұрын
The same happens to a lesser extent with large radius giving a wide contact pattern
@patrickwendling6759
10 ай бұрын
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸. Don't buy China
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
💯
@RealWorldGarage
10 ай бұрын
I appreciate your information and knowledge. I met one of the cam techs at the comp cams booth at cruising the coast, and I asked him what they were find to be the problem with the lifters/ cams. What he told me was that it came down to the oil. That a break in oil had to be used. Then continue to use an oil with enough zddp, and went on further to say that adding a supplement to the oil wasn’t a viable option as most oils now have enough detergents that it is constantly washing the added zddp off. He also said that the oils with enough zddp in them didn’t benefit from more,so apparently enough zddp is enough and more isn’t necessary. I don’t know Whether that is the failure problem or not, but that is what he told me. I have mild flat tappet to install and break in soon, I have purchased proper break in lube for the install and break in oil, and I’ll have a short prayer service before I fire it up. Thanks again for sharing your findings and knowledge.
@toddknowsnothing6465
10 ай бұрын
I know that zinc imbeds itself into the steel. It sounds like a reasonable explanation. But I don't believe it. Were it a sudden change in the oil additives every single car with a flat-tappet that was broken in then run on standard oil would die right away. Its not across the board like that. Its random. You never know which or why. This tells me its multiple problems in manufacturing. Too course of a grind. Re-conditioned lifters sold as new that are the wrong height (for fixed rod applications). Not enough dome. Too much dome. Too little to reduce foreign contamination while grinding. Figure 1 in 100 aren't done right, in one way or another and individually cause no issues. But 1 in a thousand will have 2 issues. 1 in 10,000 have 3 issues. Use 16 lifters in a build and even with those low numbers you have a 1 in 625 chance that your cam gets wiped. Your a machine shop that does hundreds a year? You use an bad (cheap) parts supplier and you can see how suddenly its a flat tappet crisis. No, I don't believe the oil. What I do believe is that manufacturers trying to make margin aren't checking every single lifter. Their low price sells more, but 1 out of every 50 or 100 wipes a cam. Find me many companies that would raise their hand and write a check to every customer in the last 5 years that wiped a cam because of poor quality lifters. Nope. "Low oil additives" is a much less costly explanation.
@RealWorldGarage
10 ай бұрын
@@toddknowsnothing6465 I asked the same question about what about all the lifters running around on the modern oil. I was told that it was primarily a problem when doing the break in. I don’t know, I’m not a metallurgist, nor machinists, I’m a technician and hot rodder. I’m about to install a new Comp cams and lifter set into a fresh built engine. All I can do is check off all of the boxes and make sure I’m doing it correctly and 🙏🏼 for the best.
@--_DJ_--
7 ай бұрын
@@RealWorldGarage Did you get that engine put together?
@gregoryschmitz2131
9 ай бұрын
Back when I was house framing, we had a choice between Korean Sinker (16 penny nail) and US Steel. I always got the US Steel, you could hit a US steel Sinker a bit offset and fine, a Korean sinker had to be 100% perfect blow or it bent. Overseas can do lower quality cheaper than we can but not good quality.
@keithbrown1915
5 ай бұрын
Excellent. In other information some are having issues with hyd rollers and leak down with noisy start ups, and more serious issues. When you say you only do rollers and are not having problems are you talking solid rollers?
@powellmachineinc
5 ай бұрын
We do mostly hyd rollers, we have very few issues, maybe 1 in a 1000.
@olduhfguy
10 ай бұрын
Glad to hear from an expert discussing flat tappet issues. As a Northernor I find it a little stressful listening to the drawl but the knowledge makes it worth the listen 🙂
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
#1 definitely not a expert, #2 I understand, it actually took sum getting use to listening to myself, lol #3 I had a supervisor from Boston once, we all made fun of his "Yankee talk"
@johndair2116
10 ай бұрын
Sounds like a proper ‘murrican to me
@1958johndeere620
10 ай бұрын
I'm from Coastal Maine, spent 30 years on my lobster boat, and I can tell you I sound like I should. LOL! Thanks for your time, compared to me you are an expert, I appreciate your knowledge, and your time given to us to help.
@413x398
10 ай бұрын
As a West Coaster I find myself using the "Subtitle" function. LOL it works! OK, just being funny. Sort of. Great content on this channel.
@olduhfguy
10 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinc I tried my best downeast accent on a neighbor of mine while visiting in rural NC. His confused expression was priceless !
@mrbrown3462
10 ай бұрын
We have poor workforce today there is no pride today in worlmanship and most all factories went cnc with no real quality control of those machines. We have lost most of the machinists who put the time into quality to computer programmers who have no clue nor care how of how a product performs. Another killer to flat tappet lifters is today's oils and gas there is no zinc and lead in today's oil and gas. We also have diminished our pure metals with recycled metals and additives. I do a lot welding and I can tell when I have pre atomic steel and early 50s-60s steel vs today's steel it welds completely different we are also importing metals from around the world and have no clue what is actually in it. Early manufactures had their own foundaries controlling what was in there mix.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
I approve this message 👏
@wheeliebad11B
10 ай бұрын
Its hard to make an honest living these days when the only parts available are absolute crap. This once great nation has been sold out plain and simple. I got out just in time before the chinese started making everything. You see its assembled here from globally sourced crap. They rely on the quality american business names weve know for years but saddly they are sold out.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Unfortunately
@melissatuason2395
9 ай бұрын
Mr. Daniel, it's Melissa's husband here, There are times that newer technology makes sense & that goes with many things in life. Much of the old ways are good as well, that said this is strictly my opinion, " When it makes sense and it is an Improvement to a common Problem"then were good. This is why we provide good service both to protect ourselves & our customers. Technology today by way of Rollers is the way to go. OHCams with direct rocker arm contact should be Roller as well but that can be debated with oil technology etc. I aint that smart so I stay away from those types of arguments. That's all I have sir.
@ercost60
10 ай бұрын
Good video. Such a stupid problem to have in 2023. Bummer that my Carolina Corvair can't do roller cams without big mods. I reused my low-mileage cam & lifters on a recent rebuild.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Absolutely
@MikeFL2TX
10 ай бұрын
I’m in the same boat doing an old Y block too.
@MustangsTrainsMowers
10 ай бұрын
What is the cause of failures of rollers, lifters and timing chains in modern Ford and GM engines like the Ford 5.4 3 valve? My brother had a 5.4 3 valve which self destructed and when the engine finally failed the truck was junked.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
The timing chain/tensioner system in many ohc v6andv8s are problematic because of length, lack of oiling and poor material, plus service problems, but lots of it comes from poor oil quality and not servicing the engine regularly
@ronsmith7739
10 ай бұрын
The number one reason on problems with flat tappets is the reduction on ZDDP by the EPA. Even NASCAR started using rollers in 2008. Today, all cars use roller tappets.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Definitely a factor
@jonellwanger7258
10 ай бұрын
Doubt that. My Buick 455 NEEDS zddp. I’ve forgotten once or twice.. lol, actually more then that. But the engine stills runs. I’m not easy on the car. It sees 4000 every time I shift! And then there the times I let it wrap up to 6200, The car is not babied at all!! I drove it when it -10° out side, and I’ll drive it when it 110°. Always shift at 4000. 5 years later, plenty of abuse later. Cam still opens valves. Switched to diesel oil last year, but was using normal Valvaline 5w30 before someone who told me. I’m still young, and don’t know everything about these old engines. But I have left zddp out of the equation for maybe 6000 miles of hard driving.
@driverjamescopeland
10 ай бұрын
With regard to using standard API certified oils, you're right... but I've even used ZDDP fortified oils made specifically for older flat tappet valvetrains. It still doesn't fix the issue. Even stock cam/lifter/spring/rocker packages that used to last 100k miles (and often longer) are now lucky to see 20-30k miles of service, using fortified oils AND lighter weight valves/pushrods.
@prevost8686
10 ай бұрын
The EPA had nothing to do with the reduction of ZDDP in engine oils. Manufacturers were federally required to warranty the emissions systems on their vehicles for a minimum of 60K miles. Well, to reduce their warranty failure rates they began reducing ZDDP. There’s absolutely nothing hazardous about ZDDP. I suppose that if you were determined to off yourself you could drink five quarts of Joe Gibbs and sh*t yourself to death but that’s about it. I’ve been a full time technician for over 30 years and I’ve watched the transition from flat tappet to rollers with a particular interest in how the remaining flat cam engines like the 5.7 Chevy were fairing on low ZDDP oils. Bone stock 5.7 Chevys are pretty much dying from rust and other issues instead of massive cam failures. Believe it or not there’s still millions of those 5.7s in service. My guess is that they were broken in back when SG &SF oils were the norm. Both ratings had more than enough ZDDP to protect STOCK flat tappet cams. I’m building a 5.7 in a mint 91 Suburban right now that’s never been opened up since it left the factory. It’s had whatever bulk oil that shops had on hand to use. I wouldn’t recommend it but the owner could shove the old cam & lifters back into it and it’d be fine. It sounds like most of the issues are in the performance realm which I don’t have any vast knowledge about.
@ronsmith7739
10 ай бұрын
@@prevost8686 We do not need ZDDP anymore because we use 100 percent roller tappets since the 1980's. Do your research.
@tracycurtright2671
10 ай бұрын
You could certainly allow these lower classes to allow rollers but there's already a problem with dropping car counts across the country causing tracks to close. The 2nd part of this is the guy that's not having cam/lifter problems he would get claimed every time he won. Again this will kill car counts. If more machine shops had the capability to fully check out these lifters and send every unusable lifter back to the vendor and demand usable lifters it would either fix the problem or several cam companies would shut their doors.
@johnpena9165
10 ай бұрын
It's all about the money, flat tappet camshafts are alot cheaper than roller camshafts and the manufacturers aren't stupid they just as do away with all flat tappet camshafts so they can make double the amount of money selling nothing but roller camshafts and their components !
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
This isn't true for the manufacturers with cnc grinders
@ni_wink84
10 ай бұрын
Definitely agree, I know when I built my little street 350 I thought oh budget, flat tappet cam will be ideal, it went flat about a month later, just one lobe so I called the big name manufacturer told them about it, they had me send them that cam and they send a full replacement, said it was most likely a bad part or core, I bought another flat from another company, that one went flat on 3 lobes right after break in, same story called them and asked, they said I either broke it in wrong, or my block was messed up, I said well before I rebuilt it it had 102k miles with a stock cam so how is it the block. Bought a roller… learned my lesson, and won’t ever own another flat tappet, granted this was 20 years ago but I think you’re correct to just avoid them
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Yep
@GrandPitoVic
10 ай бұрын
Brother, I had a 70 Malibu with a 307 and I dropped a cam and lifters in and started it up nd drove away. Never had a prob. 3000 rpms for 20 minutes.? Never heard of it or heard of wiped cams or lifters. This is 97'. I was thinking, this WAS 97'. The internet wasn't prevalent yet. That's what got me. I hadn't heard of a wiped cam or lifters. But with the internet and millions of people on here, it's easier for people to post
@stevo196two9
10 ай бұрын
Are you referring to 1997 wonders you didn’t have a problem with tap and collapsing. They had a good oil a good cam and lifter factory back then.
@GrandPitoVic
10 ай бұрын
That's true. Oiling was way better.
@Mr42960
10 ай бұрын
Did you ever manage to get an actual print of the lifter body? In my employ we do have drawings that state a micro window such as between a 12Ra and a 20Ra where engineers calculated the mating surface break in or oil seal areas where they want oil carried but not leaking. Also directing of lay of the turned or ground surface. We even do a pump seal housing where they have a target micro range and specify a right hand turn direction to an ID. Don't blame you for getting out when no one wants to hold their specs.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
No prints unfortunately
@stevenbelue5496
10 ай бұрын
Good points, seems the course RA would allow more precision break in where they wear in and form a perfect mating. Finer RA wouldn't allow as much wear in and might lose the valleys. I'm no expert but seems to me deep valleys with no plateau would be better so as they mate and develope their wear pattern they would form their own plateaus. Being ground in a certain orientation would be critical so as the lifter rotates the high points have trailing tails so oil from the valleys can come out and wedge onto the plateaus and being ground a certain way would allow oil to travel in the right direction and not just be swept away. Again I'm no expert so I hope anyone can make sense of what I'm trying to say.
@AndySomogyi
10 ай бұрын
A lot of motors can only run flat tappet, like most pushrod non-v8. I run a Volvo B20 and there’s simply no practical way to modify the block for rollers.
@twinturbocoyoteftw
10 ай бұрын
If it's my engine a mechanical roller camshaft is most likely is going to be my choice. Flat tappet is a thing of the past in my opinion.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Lol
@FloydODB
10 ай бұрын
Its the cams! 1 minute in. check the tapper in the lobe! lost an elgin. checked a new elgin and the tapper was crap.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
kzitem.info/news/bejne/pYN8z5-gZoZypKQ
@larryrucker
10 ай бұрын
I have used Lunati flat tappet cams and lifters with no problems, but I used everything exactly as they recommended. Correct spring rate, rocker ratio, and within the specified RPM range (max 6800). I was able to race one engine for 15 seasons (about 2000 passes) with little cam or lifter wear. I had more problems when I went to a Comp roller setup, still staying aroud 6800 rpm max. When I build another, I am goung back to Lunati and another Flat cam.
@VinnyMartello
10 ай бұрын
That’s good to know. I have a brand new COMP cam for my IH 392 but now I’m terrified to use it. International stuff ain’t cheap to rebuild.
@Inthefoxhole
10 ай бұрын
You can't go wrong with Lunati .By all valve train parts to match.A solid set up.
@danbaker-sl3gw
9 ай бұрын
Lunati is the only one I use never had any problems. Haven't used Crower for awhile but I always had good luck with them. My opinion is comp crane are junk tried some over the years because that's what customer wanted wanted. Seems like we were both disappointed
@happyrv2061
10 ай бұрын
I SEE a huge number of roller cams failing early. ford, chev dodge
@hvspeed6102
10 ай бұрын
So appreciate the information you’re giving out. Do you think the flaking on the edge of those lifters is due to poor material or poor machining/ grinding? Thanks
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Probably both
@swi9945
2 ай бұрын
So all of the small block Chevys I'm a small block Chevy guy and I'm old I used to build small block Chevys in the 70s and I had 300 horsepower small block Chevys 350 horsepower small block Chevys with flat tappet cams in them and never had a bit of problem with them up to 75 or 80,000 Mi so are you saying all the cars that are manufactured that have 300 horsepower engines they were just lucky that they didn't self-destruct or are you saying the new stuff is subpar and they're not manufacturing them as well as they used to back in the seventies I'm not understanding what the problem is with flat tappet cams
@powellmachineinc
2 ай бұрын
New is the problem
@swi9945
2 ай бұрын
@@powellmachineinc Thanks big D, makes sense now. I appreciate your patience with us old guys running it down so simply.
@pete540Z
10 ай бұрын
Great video. Totally agree about everyone racing in the flat tappet-only classes stepped aside for just a season, the rules would change.
@direct998
10 ай бұрын
How can some people watch the video , and still say it's the oil? SMH.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
But they do....
@floridaroadracerguy
10 ай бұрын
What do you think of Comps DLC coated lifters?
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Well, real dlc coating cost around 600.00, so......
@LOUIS-fp3bv
10 ай бұрын
Roller cams and roller lifters could be made more affordable? Thank you for all the information. Roller like it or not is the future. Rock and Roll it.
@yurimodin7333
10 ай бұрын
its not just the future its the past as well......the last production vehicle to use a flat tappet was the Jeep 4.0 inline 6 engine that was discontinued around 2003. So the oem pressure for quality has not been on the suppliers for almost 2 decades now.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Yes, the price has come down some on popular applications, a sbc from me would only cost you about 500.00 more than a ft system
@dale116dot7
10 ай бұрын
It’s also a problem with older engines. Getting a SBC with rollers isn’t going to be a huge issue, there are many options. But I’m building a 261 Stovebolt and rollers really are not so easy to put in, the lifters are a bit of an odd-duck size and as far as I know nobody grinds a roller cam for one of those.
@yurimodin7333
10 ай бұрын
@@dale116dot7 the good news is you are probobly not going super radical on the cam profile tho
@Schlipperschlopper
6 ай бұрын
With Elgin cams and lifters I never had any problem
@powellmachineinc
6 ай бұрын
Elgin doesn't even make them there just reboxed, the original supplier sells the same grinds to multiple places, same with lifters
@davidkeeton6716
10 ай бұрын
Why are these machining issues an issue now? The people that were casting and grinding cams and machining lifters pre, say 1981 for Ford or GM or Chrysler must have known what they were doing. I've had 351W motors last nearly 400k miles and God knows how many hours idling in these state trooper cars. Same thing with 440 Mopar trooper cars. I've run 352 FE motors well over 250k miles without issues. I sold a lot of aftermarket cams, Crane, Comp, Isky, Melling, from '78-'88 and I never had a customer have a failure. Never. With the tolerances that computerized equipment should be able to make, why are there so many failures now? No one can give a consistent answer.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Matl issues, employee issues tribal knowledge lost, lack of pride and accountability, ect
@tc6580
10 ай бұрын
I have been a machinist for over 40yrs I regularly run a cnc OD grinder grinding to tolerances of +.00000 -.00005 it takes skill and feel of the machine to make the tolerances even though it is computer controlled. I agree tribal knowledge, skill and care still mean something.
@tomstrum6259
10 ай бұрын
Sad to hear you getting out of the Flat tappet product & Services......I recently examined under illuminated Magnification a new in box 1976 GM flat tappet Lifter & it's Face looks Perfectly flawless Smooth with No Face surface Porosity Voids or nick/Dents & has a Uniform nick free perimeter edge Chamfer......Every New camshaft Mfg supplied Flat tappet Lifter set face looks Similar to your example of Defective Face finished Porosity voids Pitted & scarred Nicked up faces with Terribly finished edge chamfer.....All the new Cam mfg Lifters actually look like they are literally Carelessly dropped Dumped into a tub of other Bare lifters causes Semi-circle Scars scratches into All the lifter faces.....If New flat Tappet lifter customers would carefully Examine their New lifters they would be Horrified by the Metallurgy face voids Pits & Carelessly handling scar damage....
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Definitely
@j81851
8 ай бұрын
This gentleman understands the geometry and fit of engine parts. The cam has to ride up under the lifter. push it up to valve open, and continue to turn and allow it to return to valve closed position. If the cam is egg shaped in the sense the lobe is not concentric on its face, the lifter will be gouged or worn in one spot. Looking at the lobe from the end of the cam it does have an egg shaped appearance for the eccentric that lifts the lifter and valve. However if you hold the cam lengthwise the lobe of the cam should be finished where it engages the significant face of the cam and is able to rotate the lifter as well as lift it. This is where Mr. Powell is so knowledgeable, so inciteful as to how the cam running the length of the engine and the lifter in the bore will determine if it runs smooth, true and rotates or does not. Bravo.
@barryduckworth5224
5 ай бұрын
Stumbled on this video while searching for info on FT cams and lifters. Sorry to find out you quit doing that. Thought I had found somebody who had finally figured this nonsense out, and was more or less local to boot. Thanks for all the info you are providing.
@powellmachineinc
5 ай бұрын
Welcome aboard!
@gj91471
10 ай бұрын
I would try David Vizards Oil Extreme Break in lube..... Works great
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Snake oil can't fix manufacturing problems regardless of what the internet says
@carlpreston1680
10 ай бұрын
Why, just use a quality break in oil and assembly lube make sure you have oil out of every push rod before firing I have good luck with driven products, you shouldn't have to add extra zinc or slippery stuff with a quality break in oil, not diesel oil not racing oil.
@gj91471
10 ай бұрын
David Vizards Oil Extreme Break In Lube works better than any other Break in Oil You can find. Proven
@820performancecomptonbro4
10 ай бұрын
I need a buck grand national cam 3.8L v6 turbo do you guy can help me out
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Yes, dm us at the website
@copperaudio9664
10 ай бұрын
At this point seeing what the camera shows, flat tappet cams are history. You said it's not "a" problem, it's multiple problems. And any one of them will eat parts I suspect. I would not play Russian Roulette with expensive parts and machining. I just hope Roller cams/lifters aren't next. Hopefully mfgs that can't keep tolerances in line aren't making roller cams and lifters as well. Thanks a bunch for bring light on this issue.
@mikewillett5076
10 ай бұрын
As for roller cams, for one they're a lot more expensive. There's also been some trouble with roller lifters (needles). And, below around a 280° advertised duration a roller isn't as aggressive as a flat tappet. Cam companies should simply be aware of the nitty gritty now on the finish (and no junk in the grinding fluid) and it can be 30 years ago again.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Definitely
@chriscraft77022
10 ай бұрын
i hope this video goes viral... so people can stop blaming the wrong things
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Absolutely
@LOUIS-fp3bv
10 ай бұрын
It's all about the extra money being made in roller cams and roller lifters. Flat tappet is dinosaur technology. Flat tappet technology needs to be history, your example to leave your race car at home is spot on. Forward to roller technology the future.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Absolutely
@henrysmith8012
10 ай бұрын
I am going to build a 383 small block Chevy. I want to step up to the next Isky flat tappet cam size but I will risk destroying a fresh build. Going to pull the Isky out my 355, runs great and its 15 years old.
@goratgo1970
10 ай бұрын
Wish I had that option for my 383 build using my 72 vette block, but total fresh parts build. Already have the Summit 1103 cam so likely buy Rhoads for it.
@user-Dr.
10 ай бұрын
I can only recommend, at the point you are in your build, go with a roller, always use GM rollers, I use Comp. Cams because they will grind a cam to any spec I want, and I suggest for the small amount of extra cost, to have it ground out of billet.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
Or.. You could support small business and buy from us.
@Mike-Olds-1
10 ай бұрын
Appreciate the information Sir.
@powellmachineinc
10 ай бұрын
My pleasure
@scottwheaton9689
10 ай бұрын
Been wrenching/successfully installing ft cams for over 50yrs and today it’s mult issues that lead to ft csm & lifter failures. 1) like stated here there are true issue with poor machining of ft lifters & sone csm s at times too but more so a lifter machining issue. 2) The experienced people are dying off do less experienced people do make mistakes on install that can lead to ft csm/lifter failures like for example;too much cranking time prior to motor starting due to setup/incorrect timing,firing order etc. Don’t ensure lifters spin freely in lifter bores,etc. 3) using for example comps Ted assembly lube that runs drips off the lobes before motor is fired for cam breakin a few days or a wk or longer post install resulting in a dry cam & lifter 1st start. I called comp & spoke to tech help mgr & then upper management on that issue & it fell on deaf ears. 4)not using proper oil with elevated zddp level required gir ft cam breaking & for longevity post break-in too. 5) not using a good sticky grey paste type assembly that stays put post assembly like crane used yo sell. 6) not leaving intake off till you adj valves do you reapply assembly lube to the cam lobes you can access the cam lobes post spinning motor over to do valve adj so you can reapply assembly lube that was wiped off furring valve adj, 7) then after I reapply assembly lube to the lobes post valve adj I then very gently pour done gm rod or Lucas’s zddp breakin additive over all the lifters ,cam lobes & valve train just prior to installing the intake. 8) not giving motor enough base timing making timing very retarded leading to much higher engine & oil temp for breakin. Avg engine builder uses non stock cam with more duration & even mild aftermarket perf cams require 3x-4x more base timing (in 12-16deg btdc) then stock cams do (many 0-2-4-6 deg btdc) that many people aren’t aware of esp the home once in a while wrench. 9) not filling cooling system thru intake prior to to greatly reduce air pockets & overheat prior to 1st breakin start sling with slso drilling a hole in t/stat shoulde to slow hot air to pass to smooth out engine temp a bit while warming up. 10)not putting a lrg box fan up on a box in front or radiator /grill of car set on high speed to greatly reduce engine temp furring 2000-2500 rpm 30-25 min breakin . 11) not changing oil & filter post 25min breakin where a lot of metallic particles are generated furring 2st run breaking and going 300-500mile on the 1st run ft cam breakin oil & filer which is nuts to do. And all the above isn’t everything people are missing that can lead to ft cam & lifter failure outside of possibly having improperly ground lifters & or cam lobes etc. Happy motoring. Scott from ny.
@tonyc223
10 ай бұрын
Built a 360 30over dodge LA , only 450 lift mild cam. after running 30 minutes changed oil was shocked to see how much metal flakes was in the oil. most was from ring/bore break in.and new oil pump drive /distributor bronze bushing. Much less after 300 mile oil change. Truck has about 7000 on it runs good. If I went 1000 miles on 1st oil change might of been a different story.
@Greg-xv9qj
9 ай бұрын
Instructions with Crane's Molly paste. The Gray stuff was also to change the filter after 20 minutes of running because they claim that the Mali paste would plug the oil filter. And I can't count how many rebuilt Chevy engines have come through my friend's hot rod shopThat had the bypass Spring and disk missing from the oil filter adapter. So none of the oil got filtered. So many engine builders do not pay attention to little details. Also, how many people remember the cam shift issues? GM head with small black Chevy's in the late 70s early 80s. Although it seems like small block Chevy's always wipe out the cam near the front of the engine because it's at the end of the oiling system even the beloved 283s and 327s
Пікірлер: 614