Bro you're not telling me Scrimblo Bimblo isn't top tier
@jmcrofts
2 жыл бұрын
Hard to swallow pills
@AdamSmasherReal
2 жыл бұрын
The lovable scrunkus himself
@eGEORGE
2 жыл бұрын
Pls nerf scrimblo bimblo
@whiteblacklight9603
2 жыл бұрын
I think Scrimblo Bimblo for the Scrungtendo 48 SUCKS
@kickasscowell5654
2 жыл бұрын
Found myself replaying that bit like 5 times, and the first comment I see talks about it. I love it
@YouGuessIGuess
2 жыл бұрын
Part of what makes grapplers weak is that they often require a detailed understanding of every other character's options. They're usually so slow that they spend most of the match blocking everything the opponent feels like throwing at them before finally getting their turn. Then you have "evolved" grapplers like Potemkin, who have enough options to actually play the game from the get-go.
@bofi1280
2 жыл бұрын
Who's Potemkin?
@dragonfire634
2 жыл бұрын
@@bofi1280 a grappler from the guilty gear series.
@bofi1280
2 жыл бұрын
@@dragonfire634 Thanks.
@YouGuessIGuess
2 жыл бұрын
@@bofi1280 This big guy: kzitem.info/news/bejne/ybCak4iqfGZ5onY
@giannisxalkis1965
2 жыл бұрын
Being hard = being weak sure buddy
@gglandon
2 жыл бұрын
Really interestingly, near the end of Smash Wii U's competitive lifespan, almost every top player picked up a secondary grappler in either DK or Bowser. The general thought behind it was that the prime meta threats in Cloud and Bayonetta, both more or less rushdown characters, won neutral with about the same degree of consistency whether it was against a grappler, zoner, or rushdown character. DK and Bowser allowed you to take games from Cloud an Bayo in 6 total interactions rather than the 20 another top tier would require.
@YouAlreadyKnowBabi
2 жыл бұрын
What a garbage ass game that was. Thank God for Ultimate.
@aprinnyonbreak1290
2 жыл бұрын
I know, Bowser in both 4 and Ultimate is also kind of a stasised, meta-proof consistent pick, because he has really good defensive burst options, and always has a resting chance of just killing someone in a couple interactions, even if he's getting his spiky ass handed to him. Less in Ultimate, Bowser with Rage in 4 was silly. In Ultimate, he couples that with a pretty neat rushdown/grappler(esque) hybrid thing. Ultimate Bowser is FAST, and surprisingly difficult to zone out.
@Thorognah
2 жыл бұрын
Bayonetta could kill either in one interaction lol. Cloud struggled more, but even then it was a winning matchup simply because he could just not interact.
@gglandon
2 жыл бұрын
@@Thorognahbayo's side and upb both ignored the weight value of the character they hit, so superheavies objectively faired better into bayo combos than a character like jiggs.
@ktk44man
2 жыл бұрын
Smash isn't a fighting game
@GM_Lemmy
2 жыл бұрын
The main problem with grapplers is the same thing that make pixies too good... Devs overestimate the value of health bars and single hit damage. Grapplers often effectively lose access to lots of game mechanics to compensate for their high hp... While pixies are given more and more tools to compensate for their low health... but then, the health bar barely makes a difference. What devs for any game have to keep in mind is that what make a character powerful is how many (effective) options they have. Not how high are their raw numbers.
@v_i_pizza1700
2 жыл бұрын
I'm with you on that one. Damage numbers are more easily adjusted, getting a character's options right on the first run of implementation often determines where they'll end up tier-wise.
@MiscFightVids
2 жыл бұрын
Balancing based on life is always a terrible idea. See: Phoenix, Akuma, Seth, Vergil etc etc
@axelmiramontes409
2 жыл бұрын
yeah you're right but Grapplers sometimes makes extreme damage but the problem is that they have to get close to you and they are slow and hard to play
@TheGreektrojan
2 жыл бұрын
Yup. And when they do get in, they often have the hardest to execute moves (360 motions/buffering anyone?). Way too much work for too little payoff. Meanwhile most rushdown/pixie characters can do more damage with simple BNB combos and its widely considered fine gameplay. Zoners also get hurt because they are given low health, slow moves, and limited options for the benefits of range (which is fine but often a bit over tuned). I am also a bit dubious about the claims of a high-tiered grappler being inherently unfun. I'm not sure why fighting a grappler is inherently more frustrating than any number of rushdown characters who can 50/50/vortex you at will. Characters like Broly, Potemkin, Clark etc... show you can have fun and effective grapplers that don't destroy popularity/the meta all that much. I think your premise about the overvaluing of single hits and HP bars hits close to the real reason. Its a fighting game 'truism' that people have repeated forever that just really isn't true (outside of a rare few like Potemkin who actually hits like a truck).
@RedPirateMercenaries
2 жыл бұрын
They also tend to focus on mistakes of the opponent, if they are really good then it’s extremely hard to get anything going
@MrCactuar13
2 жыл бұрын
I think it's important to note that for old school fighters, zoners were by far and away the strongest archetypes. SF2 was always dominated by Guile, Dhalsim, and Sagat and it wasn't until later games like Dark Stalkers and everything that came after where mobility started to matter more and rush down characters could start showing their strength. As for a game with a strong grappler, how could you have forgotten Jupiter from Sailor Moon S?
@gargervon8697
2 жыл бұрын
I think a lot of the reason zoners are a little poorer now is because devs remember how strong they used to be in games like SF2. Like, Balrog has several re-dizzy combos in Champion Edition, but he ranks at the very bottom in most tier lists for the game because it is so easy for most characters to keep him from ever getting close enough to unleash his fury. Just updating his Turn Punch to allow it to go through projectiles in Hyper Fighting made a lot of difference in how usable he was against zoners. Still considered low-tier, though, even in HF.
@Rambo-lv9hu
2 жыл бұрын
@@gargervon8697 Yeah way weaker fireballs now compared to say SF2 World Warrior
@naejimba
Жыл бұрын
"how could you have forgotten Jupiter from Sailor Moon S?" The forbidden game
@PsychicJaguar19
2 жыл бұрын
Very interesting, loaded question. A strong deciding factor is the game that the characters are in and the mechanics that govern those characters. Let’s look at Injustice2, a game notorious for strong zoning because of the chip damage, lack of fast movement, the pushback on projectiles, and the large screen size. Zoning was the meta of that game whether it’s strong zoning or strong counter zoning, every top tier could zone or could get around zoning. Then you look at MKX where there’s a run button, everybody does 30-40% damage for one bar, and everybody has 50/50 mix, the rush down characters are the dominating archetype in that game. It just really depends on the game and mechanics
@RoyArkon
2 жыл бұрын
Indeed, it's all about the game and the mechanics, and the characters will get stronger accordingly.
@fumoffu_l
2 жыл бұрын
He said all of that though. He mentioned that Nether Realm games typically have stronger zoners, and he specifically mentioned the Injustice series. His point is that in most games zoners aren't great. We can look at the zoner characters in SF2 (pick your favorite version) and they're very strong. Then 3 came out and they became irrelevant due to the parry mechanic. MVC has only had one decent zoner in their entire lineup and that's Megaman from MVC2. But that was more cheese (jump backwards and spam heavy punch) than anything else. Even in MKX, the two best (and frankly only viable) characters were a zoner and a rush down. Even in a Nether Realm game where they like to have strong zoners, the other broken character is rush down. Even the exceptions have broken rush down characters. TLDR; other than a few outliers, zoners have become weak, grapplers have almost always been weak, and rush down is the strongest. That's the new normal for fighting games.
@RoyArkon
2 жыл бұрын
@@fumoffu_l Not only you didn't add anything new, but you only gave wrong information. In MKX, all types of the 4 types of archetypes (Zoning, Rushdown, Balanced and Grapplers) are viable, it's just that Rushdown is the most accessible one, but all 4 of them had at least some chars with Variations for that archetypes that were viable. Also in MVC games there were other strong Zoners besides Megaman, there were Magneto (outside of MVC2), Morrigan (MVC3), Sentinel, Dr. Doom and more. Having Zoning chars not strong is only in the last few years. Yes there are more and more games that purposefully make Rushdown chars the strongest, but it's only really in recent years that this trend is going on, and just like you said SF3 had way back in the late 90's. At the end of the day, it's all about the game and the mechanics, and the characters will get stronger accordingly.
@egekazkayas8968
Жыл бұрын
@@RoyArkon I mean I wouldn’t count doom , magneto and sentinel good for their zoning. With doom and sentinel they have amazing assist games. Doom also has great air play and sentinel has a bunch of armor . Magneto will just bash you from the air. They have good zoning but its not what makes them top tier.
@RoyArkon
Жыл бұрын
@@egekazkayas8968 Magneto and Doom are both well-rounded characters, they both can play Zoning and Rushdown (again, aside from MVC2 as in this game Magneto is indeed not a Zoner) and Sentinel is 100% Zoner, pretty much his entire moveset are projectiles that cover the screen from so many different angles.
@TheOxiongarden
2 жыл бұрын
I think Street Fighter 5 has a good variety of characters : -Dhalsim is an excellent zoner -Ken and Luke are excellent Shotos -Alex and G are very good Grapplers -Cammy and Rashid excellent rushdown -Karin and Kolin good neutral characters
@theworldlywarrior
Жыл бұрын
R mika is amazing too
@TheOxiongarden
Жыл бұрын
@@theworldlywarrior Mika used to be very good yes. But she ate a LOT of nerfs. And she's not that good anymore unfortunately.
@theworldlywarrior
Жыл бұрын
@@TheOxiongarden oof, i left at the right time then. She had a great mixture of pokes and grapples.
@RanOutOfSpac
2 жыл бұрын
So the first grappler character that comes to mind that’s generally really strong is King from Tekken. I don’t think he’s ever been top tier, but I’m fairly certain he’s ranged from mid to high in every game he’s been in. That said, it’s rarely his grab game that makes him so good. He’s also insanely fun to play/watch.
@ryanmartin4037
2 жыл бұрын
In Tekken 1 he had a +90 something on block mid poke for some reason but aside from that he's definitely never been top tier
@ddublu
2 жыл бұрын
I have very limited tekken experience, so bear with me: I'm assuming wavedashing and kbds are your preferred way of moving. Do characters have different dash startups/distances/qualities and does that translate to character categories? asked differently, is king less mobile than other - specifically non-grappler - characters?
@GodOfOrphans
2 жыл бұрын
Tekken also doesn't really have projectiles, they still have zoners in a way with some attacks having big hitboxes but in general grapplers are better in Tekken just cause they don't have to deal with projectiles as much. Then even in 7 which added a lot of projectile characters you can still use the z axis to sidestep them much easier than in a 2D fighter
@RanOutOfSpac
2 жыл бұрын
@@ddublu If I remember correctly KBD’s are universal except on characters that have a back sway like Paul or Bryan (they can still KBD but it’s harder). Wave Dashing is exclusive to characters that have special steps like the Mishimas and Bruce. I don’t think King can Wave Dash, but he has other mobility tools like this neat little spin jump. As for dash startup, I actually have no idea.
@RanOutOfSpac
2 жыл бұрын
@@GodOfOrphans Yeah, the only characters that had projectiles throughout the series were the Devil characters. At high level though, even those lasers were useless because of side stepping, like you said, and cause slow startup.
@chkmte1304
2 жыл бұрын
My observation is that grapplers as an archetype are not designed for both players to have fun at all points of the match. It's a very different type of grind than other characters but it can be exhilarating to make the right reads and kill your opponent in a few hits. Ironically, grapplers are probably the most realistic archetype in terms of how people fight (think brazilian ju jitsu)
@azechase6597
2 жыл бұрын
When grapplers are done right they are my favorite archetype bar none. I love the feeling of out thinking my opponent or commiting to a risky move and having it pay off. when you're losing your losing pretty badly but winning makes it worth it. As someone who does actually fight and do some martial arts I wish more game would make grappling accurate to how it is irl. Grapplers aren't big slow heavy guys. They're big fast heavy guys. Grappling is fast not slow.
@jackredfield5993
2 жыл бұрын
@@azechase6597 exactly, and instead of ridiculous damage there could be a trade off for unique movement options and better oki. I love ramon for this in KOF but he is still bottom tier somehow...
@michaelpowell3204
2 жыл бұрын
Figuring out how to do well with a grappler is incredibly rewarding, for sure. I almost always have a secret-best character and they're almost always grapplers where I've figured out something degenerate. You have to keep them in your pocket most of the time lest you anger your friends though...
@davidpineda9160
2 жыл бұрын
Just like in real MMA everyone hates grapplers lol
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
@@azechase6597 There are a few "fast" grapplers that focus on using grabs for resets rather than pure damage (Android 16 and Kouma from Melty come to mind)
@v_i_pizza1700
2 жыл бұрын
"Grapplers aren't fun for others to play against"... I've heard this argument before, like Catalyst on event hubs said in one of their podcasts "grapplers should NEVER be top tier." when talking about the end of Street fighter 5 going into street fighter 6. But i disagree... I'll predicate this statement by saying that I do not like to play as grapplers, but I know plenty of people that do. But I think the aforementioned statement is a pretty poor excuse to have grapplers nerfed. Just because their play style doesn't conform to how you want to play the game doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to take advantage their toolkits. As long as they're balanced, and not unbeatable, there's no reason there shouldn't be variety. Those people that don't like fighting against grapplers have to put in the time to learn how to play around them. I feel it's important to have matchup knowledge and experience against all archetypes.
@Guitar-Dog
2 жыл бұрын
I see the same argument for '2D characters' in Tekken 7...
@GM_Lemmy
2 жыл бұрын
I agree. Besides, holding down back while the opponent's pixie goes crazy on you isn't fun either.
@jackredfield5993
2 жыл бұрын
@@GM_Lemmy 100% this weird fgc philosophy that there is one specific honest and fun way to play the game, wether it be rushdown or neutral based shoto (it really just depends on the game) is kind of annoying. It's honestly just majority consensus, people just don't like losing, which makes sense, but that's an individual battle and not one indicative of game design. The majority of a playerbase gravitates towards shoto and rushdown characters, and because of that, their interpretation of what is and isn't fun eventually becomes the accepted one. But in reality, the grappler is having just as little fun when they're holding down back all game, and the zoner isn't enjoying your full screen burst options whenever they try to get their fireball pressure going. People who complain are going to complain, there just happens to be a larger sample size of complainers in the playerbases for more standard archetypes.
@angiestrowbridge2157
2 жыл бұрын
@@jackredfield5993 I have to say I have more fun being zoner out as a rushdown character than rushed down as a zoner. I find space control more interesting part of the game than mix ups. Mix ups and combos get glorified as the most important part of fighting games but we are all different
@Zevox87
2 жыл бұрын
The problem is that "playing around them" basically means playing like a zoner - don't let them get close to you so they can't threaten you with their grab. Which, unless you're playing a zoner already, might not be a play style you enjoy. In which case, makes sense that fighting them would be something you don't enjoy doing, regardless of their power level competitively, no?
@basanova22
2 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this video. I like when you tackle these topics across the entire fighting game genre. To be honest I don't know how much of that you can really do. Logistically I think you're gonna have to go into specific games a lot more. But I enjoyed this.
@absoul112
2 жыл бұрын
zoners are an interesting case. I'd say that in a vacuum, zoners are the strongest archetype, but in the context of basically every modern game they're pretty weak. If nothing else, I don't think the others mentioned needed mechanics added to deal with them specifically. I wish more grapplers were like Shermie or Ramon (in theory).
@zaneburgess2375
2 жыл бұрын
Well all modern games unless made by neverrealm.
@yurin4402
2 жыл бұрын
He picked frieza, worst example imo , bcs dbzfighters are almost FULL of rushdowns , I think zoners are pretty strong , also because this archetype is famous with being salt-inducing , people can't deal with them when they're not skilled enough 💀
@Upsetkiller456
2 жыл бұрын
@@yurin4402 "Why're you so bad at video games?"
@fumoffu_l
2 жыл бұрын
What does "in a vacuum" even mean in this context? It sounds like you're saying "if you take away everything that isn't a zoner, then zoner is the strongest"
@absoul112
2 жыл бұрын
@@fumoffu_l “in a vacuum” referred to game mechanics. I thought that was made clear based on the rest of my comment.
2 жыл бұрын
A pretty interesting video (series), I think, would be a deep dive into less common archetypes. Not so much how strong they are, but _what_ they are, what makes them cool and interesting, maybe showing some iconic examples.
@PlatinumMage
Жыл бұрын
Some guy started one called archetype archive but it’s not that good imo.
@timhorton8085
2 жыл бұрын
I wish the "brawler" archetype was more well represented in fighting games. Close range, trouble getting in, but with short combo strings that do really good damage. Someone that plays like a grappler but uses short strings instead of throws.
@hoodedstreetmonk352
2 жыл бұрын
What would be your favourite brawler?
@Luigi777888
2 жыл бұрын
I think this is also called "footsies" archetype as well. Rekka characters usually fit here as well.
@timhorton8085
2 жыл бұрын
@@hoodedstreetmonk352 third strike alex. I know he was low tier, but his move set, aesthetics, and mind game were the most fun I've ever had with a fighter. Psyching out your opponent by swapping between weak, fast grapples and really strong 3 hit strings always made him feel so much more violent than the rest of the cast.
@tedjomuljono3052
2 жыл бұрын
Sounds like Maxima
@BonzoDrummer
Жыл бұрын
3S Alex?
@Zadamanim
2 жыл бұрын
Before I watch the video, we all know the pecking order is rushdown/mixup, shotos, zoners, and lastly grapplers.
@vance4172
2 жыл бұрын
I agree
@agni2051
2 жыл бұрын
Season 1 R.Mika would like a word with you
@FoolsGil
2 жыл бұрын
I detest fighting Potkemin from GG. But he's a great grappler because he has a counter for everything. I play Cerebella in Skullgirls, she is like a rush down mix, and has plenty of options to get past even projectiles.
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
If it makes you feel better, most of the high level pro Pot players just don't even bother competing in big tournaments because he also has some of the worst matchups in strive lol. Hell even other Pot mains like myself don't like the Pot mirror
@TheVenerableMrKrieg
2 жыл бұрын
@@AstralTaurus I love the Pot mirror for being absolute chaos. I don't think the better Pot wins with any consistency unless the gap is enormous but damn if it ain't always an absolutely silly spectacle. That said, you're dead-on about high level play, and while he was generally in a okay spot for most of season 1 (only Goldlewis proved functionally insurmountable), season 2 seems to have only made Pot even worse while making some of his worst MUs *worse for him.* He now has a bit most silliness in areas he was already doing okay, but Goldlewis got massive buffs for example while Potemkin lost his only reversal (even if it was a pretty bad one), all while they pushed Potemkin even further in terms of execution demands. I was out here throwing karas all over the place already, but now they want me to 236236S, hold for no more than 11 frames, RC, and then 632146K~P just for a half decent reversal to get out of pressure? Is it hilarious when you do it perfectly? Absolutely. Does it put the fear of god in your opponent when you just facetank through their oki and grab them for a Buster instead? Absolutely. Is it also literally 16 inputs in less than a quarter of a second and if you mess up your super timing you die, if you RC too early, you die and it takes your meter, you RC too late and it takes your meter and you fire into the sky at best resetting to neutral but maybe just dying instead, or you mess up your kara or the buster input and you randomly Megafist (50/50 on dying) or whiff the Buster and then definitely die? *Yep.* I feel like giving complex characters complex inputs is fair (Zato) since you just have the logistical issue of cramming all those things onto the controller, but I'm guessing a huge problem with grapplers in most games is just that they, for some reason, often have extremely taxing and unintuitive inputs. Tager in BB for example has 720 inputs on his regular grabs, part of his basic gameplan, and you can either roll those in to your play and do them more or less at will or you aren't allowed to play Tager, to say nothing of having to often understand underlying buffer mechanics so you can work around the limitations (buffering it while landing from a jump, etc) to do these things in the first place which is often extremely unintuitive. To say nothing of his 1080 input Astral Heat. There are a lot of weird old, misguided, design decisions that have stuck with us for way too long.
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
@@TheVenerableMrKrieg god 360s/720s still scare me so much and i've been playing potemkin for a few years now and can honestly say just mastering the potbuster input took so much time (i'm also stupit).
@paatwo
2 жыл бұрын
@@AstralTaurus Good thing potbuster isnt a 360 eh? :)
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
@@paatwo those were 2 semi related thoughts put awkwardly together i already told you i was stupit ;-; -i find 360s hard -i still mess up the potbuster input on occasssion despite practicing it for a few years -inb4 "git gud"
@Agent_Funk
2 жыл бұрын
The irony of this list is that as a grappler I'd much rather fight rush down characters than zoners or shotos. Like rush down characters are often top tier, but it's the one archetype that a grappler can actually hang with pretty decently.
@ArcienPlaysGames
2 жыл бұрын
I main a character in Killer Instinct called Kan-Ra, who falls into the - I guess - unique category of a "trappler". He plays like - and has the damage output of - a zoner, he can attack like a grappler, he has the respective weaknesses of these two archetypes, but makes up for it via his trap setup game. The opponent can't just run into him and unga-bunga if he has used his distance to make setups. He's such an interesting character because of this.
@naejimba
Жыл бұрын
Everything is fast in Vampire Savior (well, besides Victor and Anakaris) but I really feel like Fish is a trap character mixed with a rush down (possibly the first "trap" archetype ever?)... his dash is good and he has a lot of offensive tools. It's just that he shines when he gets the opponent in a corner and starts throwing out bubbles to trap them. He's the closest thing to a zoner in this game and really interesting.
@jasonbliss6030
Ай бұрын
@ytm23akNess isn't really a trapper. You can bait attacks, but that's with everyone. Ness is a zoner, with next to no grappling. Snake is a trapper, possibly "trappler" since his grabs are a much bigger part of his combo game than Ness.
@RX7jkr
2 жыл бұрын
From my experience, I’d say that zoners and rushdown characters have the potential to be the most powerful depending on the game. Grapplers are definitely on the lower end. Shotos/balance types are usually high tier/mid because their arsenal just lets them deal with all the other archetypes and rarely have almost impossible to win match-ups like a grappler vs a zoner. Then you have the absolutely borderline broken characters like Swiftmaster who have every tool to win a match, ridiculous damage off any hit, and the pros of their respective archetype, in this case: speed, mix-up, and setplay (rushdown). If they had given him a command throw then that would have just been adding insult to injury.
@PhillipOnTakos
2 жыл бұрын
Unless you're playing an NRS game the zoners will not be top tier.
@husknoun
2 жыл бұрын
In KOF 98 Goro Daimon is the strongest character by far, you should see more of him, he is the true boss.
@jjwrx8
2 жыл бұрын
What i hate is the grappler issues of them losing a lot of the other characters main tools/functions is almost exclusively 2d fighters meanwhile in 3d games like tekken they don't cut off a characters leg just because you want to play a grappler.
@uandresbrito5685
2 жыл бұрын
That's why they're good in KOF. They are just like everything else but don't block
@BlahNetworkBro
2 жыл бұрын
I think “level up” characters (susanoo, Zappa, ss4gogeta, etc…) in fighting games usually end up being very polarizing, the strongest or the weakest. Personally though I’m a big fan of the resource management characters! They can also be pretty polarizing in terms of balance. Some of my mains are Jack-o, Umbrella, and Rachel alucard.
@PushoverMediaCritic
2 жыл бұрын
I think Adult Gohan is a better example of a "level up" character from FighterZ than Gogeta 4 is.
@rah8693
2 жыл бұрын
I’m pretty sure they’re called “Snowball” characters as opposed to “level up”
@Senketsujin
2 жыл бұрын
@@rah8693 I was about to come here and say that as well.
@miguelcoverstristes3589
2 жыл бұрын
Amy from soul calibur is a perfect level up character
@omarvladimirlopezramos999
2 жыл бұрын
Well, this depends a lot of the gamer, for example in skullgirls Beowulf, that Is a grappler, is pretty broker as far as i remember.
@ThatGuy-nv1nu
2 жыл бұрын
Good video but you forgot about the footsies archetype. Someone like Karin from street fighter 5 obviously isn't a grappler, she has no full screen play so she isn't a zoner, she is definitely more offensive then defense so she isn't a shoto and she doesn't really want to get upp in your face so she isn't a rush down character. She is however really strong in the mid range, that's where she want to be, so she's a footsies character
@twistedgambit9084
2 жыл бұрын
I wouldnt really call her a footsie archetype, she's more or less rush down and a mix of a grappler.
@RX7jkr
2 жыл бұрын
I have never heard of a “footsie” archetype lol. I do get what you mean tho, Vanguard in DNF Duel dominates mid screen with his giant normals. Not quite a zoner but definitely not rushdown either.
@stolensentience
2 жыл бұрын
Sounds like a Karin main’s reasoning
@havaltherock
2 жыл бұрын
Thats a zoner.... a zoner is someone who wants to keep you in a specific range...full screen zoners are called keep aways.
@chillpill1649
2 жыл бұрын
@@stolensentience facts lol
@solusuniversi8786
2 жыл бұрын
I consider grapplers to be like Megaman boss characters. Gimmicky and punishing, but once you learn how to beat them, they simply cannot win without their opponents making a mistake, and there is usually one character that exploits the grappler’s weaknesses exceptionally well, usually zoners. Strong against newbies or early in a game’s lifespan. Similarly, zoners generally are annoying to fight, but once you understand how to get in they have few tools to turn the fight back around. They’re like late-game megaman bosses that require patience and have no particular weakness, but you can win against them once you get the pattern. There are exceptions of course, but I digress. Strong against newbies as well, but also annoying to face at all stages of a game’s lifespan. Stoto characters are like X in the megaman games, safe and easy to play with a basic tool for everything. Characters like akuma and evil ryu count as super-stoto imo, and are like X with his armor upgrades, but some weakness to balance it, that is unlike anything x would have. Rushdown characters are usually the Zero in the megaman x games, dangerous to use at first, but once you know how to beat the grapplers and zoners that give x a bit of trouble, it’s the most efficient type of character you can play, and usually only slightly struggles against strong shoto characters and over-tuned characters of any given archetype, which everyone would struggle against. TLDR: fighting games are just megaman games without stages to run through, except totally different.
@daikaji3833
2 жыл бұрын
Unorthodox, and surprisingly extremely great comparison
@GiveGodCredit
2 жыл бұрын
Aren’t all megaman bosses zoners?
@solusuniversi8786
2 жыл бұрын
@Ben Thompson Not within the context I provided, but I get what you’re saying.
@misteralien8313
2 жыл бұрын
Totally Love the Megaman Analogy. It's how I learned to play fighting games as well (atleast the arcade mode) I treated them as boss fights in Megaman. I got the idea when I realized Magma Dragoon is a Shoto
@Mene0
2 жыл бұрын
How could you have forgotten the puppet-rushdown-footsies-zoner hybrid?
@bageltime8983
2 жыл бұрын
Cyberbots is one of the few games where a grappler(Vise) is the best character in the game,but it's a really balanced game.
@tyrantofruin
2 жыл бұрын
Day 16 of asking you to play DotoDoya in DnF Duel
@Floomis
2 жыл бұрын
Nice vid! Some other archtypes that i think are worth discussion are characters who have a gameplan around using armored moves such as Vaseraga from GBVS and also 'puppet' characters you see mostly in anime fighters like Zato and Zappa etc. You can argue that these characters fall into the catagories you've listed, but i think their gameplan is different enough for them to merit a seperate discussion.
@leithaziz2716
2 жыл бұрын
Puppet Fighters are weird in meta, as small changes can make them either very strong or very weak. Zappa was not as powerfull in AC untill later revisions added stuff like the sword that he can pressure with fullscreen (including an overhead) and the dog. Zato in Xrd SIGN started out very strong, but by the end of Xrd Rev 2 (the final revision for Xrd), Zato was almost near the bottom, beat by Potemkin. I think what was changed among other stuff was how his drill attack, Invite Hell, worked. DEB went into more detail on her video on Arcsys balance. Allthough, from my research, they're more often really good.
@thefrankiepalmeri
2 жыл бұрын
Zoning is puppet. Puppet is zoning.
@Eskimofo13
2 жыл бұрын
@@thefrankiepalmeri you’re telling me Zato is a zoner?
@mohdnazri7126
2 жыл бұрын
puppet is more like 'playstyle' rather than 'archetype'. for example, dhalsim/axl is a zoner with long limbs. launcher is a zoner with projectiles. zato is a zoner with his puppets. whenever the character is able to put pressure while maintaining distance, they are what we call zoners.
@vanillafella4893
2 жыл бұрын
@@mohdnazri7126 just wanted to mention that all puppet characters arent zoners, Devo in Jojo Hftf for example is only made more vulnerable when his puppet is out but if you can get your puppet behind the enemy your combos triple in damage output
@smokelingers9857
2 жыл бұрын
Scrimblo Bimblo would like a word, Mr Crofts.
@Caderfixloxa
2 жыл бұрын
Zoners are in the correct place in the list, but they are still strong enough to compete with the rest, grapplers however... oh boy. Z tier
@dantepatel
2 жыл бұрын
I really wish there were breakdowns for archetypes in fighting games. I feel like it would lead to a better understanding of the game in general. I'm curious what all the archetypes in MvC2 are, for example.
@michaelcollins4534
2 жыл бұрын
S1 Android 16 made me so happy as a grappler enjoyer. Bless these dunks
@spreadlove8946
2 жыл бұрын
Another reason for pixies being the strongest archetype is that they tend to have good matchup spreads. They have the easiest getting in the zoner thanks to their movement, but the same movement advantage allows them to run away from/ run circles around the grappler allowing for easy whiffpunishes. Even against shoto/midrange characters the high speed of pixies allows them to compete in footsies despite usually having worse normals in terms of range
@wooba4227
2 жыл бұрын
so ur telling me my 3x pot buster isnt a combo?
@ajshiro3957
2 жыл бұрын
I feel like grapplers usually feel weak because of their speed. There aren't really any fast grapplers. And with 2D games, they have trouble getting close to their opponent. especially one's with fireballs. 3D games like Tekken and VF feel a bit different with grapplers though. However their best moves are usually really hard to execute.
@happyvalentine4008
2 жыл бұрын
Dragon Ball FIghterZ has fast grapplers like Android 16 and Broly because everyone in that game is just speedy as hell but it’s compensated by grabs not doing the same amount of damage proportionally in slower fighters like Street Fighter.
@watermelongaming3698
8 ай бұрын
I hope you mean DBS Broly.
@vOddy75
2 жыл бұрын
Top tier grappler: Goro Daimon in KoF 98. There's a small group of viable chacaracters, and he's one of them.
@mohdnazri7126
2 жыл бұрын
one other type that everyone always forgot is the "turtle". tbh, i didnt know whether it is an archetype or just playstyle. Turtle characters are more comfortable defending, their win condition revolve around reacting rather than initiating like for example counter punch, dodge and whiff punish moves, anti-airs or just straight up armored moves.
@Mykulveli
2 жыл бұрын
You're more or less describing a traditional zoner. However, some zoners can be played aggressively. Some characters have some zoning tools, but then combine with mixup or rush down options like Ramlethal from GG Strive.
@mohdnazri7126
2 жыл бұрын
@@Mykulveli traditional zoner tend to pressure you from distance, poking you away which means they have to INITIATE. turtle characters want you to attack them first and REACT to your moves. one example that i can think of is, if you can imagine guile (probably the OG turtle) squatting all the time charging while waiting for you, thats a turtle character.
@TheDocbach
2 жыл бұрын
A pretty under rated example of a turtle is UI Goku from DBFZ. Everyone knows he is good but no one says why. Its because he has all the defensive gimicks that no other character has. He can walk thorugh ki blasts. He can hop through beam attacks. He can insta teleport behind you if you time it with a normal. He can even insta counter specials with a parry. In a game where every character could be considered a rush down nightmare, its refreshing to see this kind of change up in design.
@kyronpitts6220
2 жыл бұрын
Like Elena from sf4? She was a menace lol
@xDragonInstallx
2 жыл бұрын
puppet characters tend to be really strong in most games.
@antonsimmons8519
2 жыл бұрын
I've always had the easiest time with shotos, followed a close second by projectile zoners, once I learned to zone. Rushdown, I'm 50/50 with, because the designs of that particular style vary REALLY widely in my experience. *Also, Launcher main. Yeah, life's rough, but when they fail to stop my momentum from building, I am a wall of explosive death that is salt-inducing at the very least.
@jays.6843
2 жыл бұрын
"Grapplers don't let me play the game". -Rushdown players
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
I always find it so funny that grapplers are without a doubt some of the most consistently bad archetypes (usually mid/bottom tier) and yet EVERYONE hates them lol
@Dr_Ki11enger
2 жыл бұрын
Even grappler players hate grapplers. And themselves usually.
@stolensentience
2 жыл бұрын
Almost like they break the core systems of the game or something
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
@@stolensentience depends on the game but in general it's kinda the opposite. Grapplers seem scary at low levels till you play against solid intermediate+ players who know the proper OS to get out of throw set ups. Unless you're talking about DBFZ Broly
@stolensentience
2 жыл бұрын
@@AstralTaurus I just mean how you aren’t allowed to play up close whatsoever. You just play keep away because all the up close interactions mean nothing. And don’t get me started on the teleporting into their arms nonsense.
@AstralTaurus
2 жыл бұрын
@@stolensentience that's not really "game breaking". Actually most grapplers have pretty slow normals and lack defensive options like reversals so it's not so bad. And they kinda need big grab ranges otherwise the grab becomes kinda useless
@lashermytube
2 жыл бұрын
Right off the bat you failed to highlight the grapplers properly.. instead of the T-Hawk showing off his stuff you should have had that match the other way around. Show Hakans game... the most prolific grapper an SF game has ever produced. He's in, out down up, mixup rush down, defense and max damage all rolled into one character. And Abigale .. a close second to Hakan.
@ONIGIRIKINGU
2 жыл бұрын
Hakan is garbage without oil
@KevinEDF
2 жыл бұрын
Nerf Scrimblo Bimblo
@douglepong
2 жыл бұрын
Zoners are hands down the strongest. To be honest they're never bad up close. Cable, Sentinel, Iron Man, etc. in MVC 2. Cetrion is damn near impossible to beat in Mortal Kombat. Sucks to face Robocop players as well. Sonic fox made a living off Erron Black.
@billyboleson2830
Жыл бұрын
NRs zoning is built different but not the norm
@GGus776
2 жыл бұрын
The thing about grapplers is that even if they are top. Most games only have one or two at most so unless they are absolutely dominant the meta would never revolve around them. Here’s an idea for a video. How about which characters you think represent the ideal of each archetype better, also maybe add which one you think it’s the strongest and your favorite.
@ZacsNotDead
2 жыл бұрын
Depends. Do projectiles have collision which franchise etc. I love Grapplers in Injustice games the opponent gets mad having to just watch a grapplers animation play out with no escape I loved Grodd but I’m a NRS fanboy Zoners can be toxic af some chars have amazing zoning with good combos that just resend u full screen. THEN the midmatch animations can reset ur position taking u from up close to far and ur having to get back in all over again.
@Zetact_
2 жыл бұрын
There is the unmentioned fifth general character archetype that is debatably on par with rushdown, the Midrange character. The ones that have big buttons, usually a fast walk speed, focus less on mixups and more on good conversions. Often they differ from shotos in that the major tools that the Shoto has are ones that the midrange character doesn't get, at least not so easily. They usually don't have projectiles, or if they do they're rather weak and often piddle out without some sort of resource investment. They usually don't have DPs so getting strong anti-air options and reversals isn't quite as common for them. Instead of a Tatsu, a tool they use for getting in usually only moves them forward a little bit and is intended to be used after landing a whiff punish or it might be something like a command dash. Characters like Karin, Strive Ramlethal, Chun-Li, Hitman, possibly Nova in MVC3... In any case, it's a character archetype that not many people talk about because it's hard to pin down exactly what it is but something that you can tell it's characters who can't be classed as "Shoto, Zoner, Grappler, or Rushdown" since they don't actually have the right characteristics to fit into any of them. Yet it's a character type you can probably think of at least one character in any fighting game to fit inside. It also tends to be extremely powerful, dependent on what sort of mechanics a game has. IMO midrange characters are better in a game where there is more player expression, because the midrange character is a total mystery at the beginning of a match since they can play in so many different ways.
@danimarques2011
2 жыл бұрын
You described Scorpion, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage and Fujin in MK11
@naejimba
Жыл бұрын
I think Claw from Super Turbo is where this started. Everyone talks about the wall dives (which are busted, don't get me wrong) but to have a character with a fast walk speed and the 2nd longest normals in the game is a DEADLY combo. I honestly think if his wall dive was removed completely he would still be a top tier character. There are some matchups he might not want to go into the air much against, and in those his speed and range makes him amazing at footsies (let alone most of what he can do is safe on block).
@Slayerthecrow
2 жыл бұрын
In the competitive, Grapplers are usually low tier specially if is a capcom game, Zooners are just top tier in Nether Realm games, Shotos are your bread and butter when you are capcom and Rush Down seems like the thing in Arc-System because most their games feel like you are always playing a Rush Down character.
@Squittles_UwU
2 жыл бұрын
The game is pretty niche but while we're on the topic of role reversals, most zoners in Under-Night In-birth exe: late [CL-R] are top tier characters if not just a strong pick. Vatista and Yuzuriha are s tier characters with some really unique hybrid archetypes. Vatista not only is a charge character through and through (as well as negative edge) with no motion inputs whatsoever but she's also a zoner/trap character. Forward and backward charge inputs are projectiles, down and up charge inputs are a invuln flash kick and an overhead dive move respectively, and negative edge places down up to 3 traps according to the button held that you can detonate with any of your attacks including projectiles. Coupled with pretty big normals, a levitate, and not being able to get counter hit, she's pretty ridiculous in the right hands. Yuzuriha on the other hand is a zoner/stance character with unreactable projectiles, multiple teleports, counters, and a dodge (both aerial and grounded). The teleports are backwards dp inputs and you can chain them together to mix the opponent up, her grab can chain into combos, and her stance (while making your walk speed mega slow) allows you to do small teleports for minor repositioning, dodge attacks, and do a flurry of projectiles. I've played this game pretty religiously for a couple years and the match up between these 2 is never the same. It really just depends on the player.
@fernandopires135
2 жыл бұрын
Peacock from skull girls is the hellish abomination known as a rushdown zoner... She can dominate a match pretty quickly
@lizbethian
2 жыл бұрын
I’m sobbing as grappler main. I already know they’re gonna be low.
@lizbethian
2 жыл бұрын
called it 😔
@Pwrplus5
Жыл бұрын
Asuka and JP watched this video and took it personally
@chm2
Ай бұрын
Season 2 JP is on the line. He's sobbing uncontrollably.
@GohTheGreat
2 жыл бұрын
I truly don’t know the reason for most grapplers jumping away after doing the command grab. I feel like getting rid of that would put most grapplers at mid tier.
@leithaziz2716
2 жыл бұрын
Likely the devs want to avoid looping grabs and creating a mixup vortex.
@GohTheGreat
2 жыл бұрын
@@leithaziz2716 I was about to put that, but then I remembered that’s just rushdown characters, so why is it an issue for grapplers?
@leithaziz2716
2 жыл бұрын
@@GohTheGreat There are usually mechanics to make mixups less effective, even if they can still be looped. FD in Guilty Gear pushes the opponent way and mixup attacks usually scale a lot, so they don't do too much damage (unless it's MVC). With Grapplers, they sometimes just make grabs do as much damage as a combo, but give no Oki to make things less "intoxicating".
@jackredfield5993
2 жыл бұрын
@@leithaziz2716 right, and in a lot of fighting games a command grab throw loop is a true 50-50 if they don't have an invicible reversal, much more potent than your typical combo reset
@cerdi_99
2 жыл бұрын
@@jackredfield5993 typically there's a few frames if grab invul or, in blazblue's case, they just let u tech the command grab if they do it on blockstun (or a few frames after) and the window for it is way bigger. This probably doesnt apply to old games tho
@aardm4rk
2 жыл бұрын
Abigail in SFV was somewhat viable grappler until they nerfed him. If you think of the pure heavy grapplers, they are usually rough but the lighter grapplers like Abel and R.Mika they are alright. I think ppls just have always preffered rush down. I remember I'd get called certain names for playing Sim in SF4. He was pretty strong in the early iterations. I think a game where there are high tier versions of the architypes may be difficult but now that would be a fighting game.
@Vizorfam
2 жыл бұрын
I always like grappler characters more
@rastapig1
2 жыл бұрын
Kof 98 goro diamond grappler Garou: mark of the wolves Kevin, grappler, kain zoner Mkxl (sun god) Mk11(kinda) Kotal Khan grappler... Last blade 2 Shigen another grappler (that guy will wreck your shit)
@MILDMONSTER1234
2 жыл бұрын
Notice how 3 of these are old games, although in MKX everyone is rushdown thanks to the run button
@rastapig1
2 жыл бұрын
@@MILDMONSTER1234 yeh :( creativity is in decline tbh lol...
@ByrneBaby
2 жыл бұрын
JM with amazing video topics, AS USUAL. Funny enough, Z Broly is a grappler that has one of the best zoning tools in the game. Zoners would be great if chip kills were a thing again. The top zoners in FGs force you to play their game since, if you don't, you simply perish. bring back chip kills, man, I'm tryna play fighting games, not blocking games
@tengutribe
2 жыл бұрын
😂 you ain't lying. Can't stand this no chip kill shit. So many characters would've been badass in SFV if only chip kill for specials were there.
@itsmazu8160
2 жыл бұрын
You're missing one crucial archetype and that would be : Vergil
@free_playstation_2
2 жыл бұрын
The S Tier characters tend to dominate metas in games, so they might be the best archetype
@Carlos-ln8fd
2 жыл бұрын
It's weird how much angry fans influence the way fighting games are developed
@GohTheGreat
2 жыл бұрын
Strive beta was funny because Potemkin was almost universally agreed top 3 at minimum, along with Sol, the other top tier, having his wild throw damage to 35%. Grappling was amazing in the beta
@Khint
2 жыл бұрын
Isn't beowulf from Skullgirls an obnoxiously good grappler? I don't play the game, but i remember hearing that he's basically a shoto, but half his combo tools are different variations of grabbing and swinging around enemies, giving him absurd damage output. What I DO know however, is that in BBCF, the meta is dominated by a rushdown that just gets ultra armor for basically free (Izanami) and a Zoner with obnoxious normal and special zoning capabilities (Nine). Although, meta doesn't have much importance in BBCF since most people play characters for their unique play style (thanks to the drive and overdrive systems, that basically forces every character to have an unique gimmick, even the shotos)
@e-trash
2 жыл бұрын
To name a few exceptions to this topic: - Thunder (KI2013) he is grappler, and also one of the best characters in the game. He does have great mixups, a DP, a half screen cmd grab and a dash that can pass through a bunch of stuff like a teleport, kinda. He can also destroy projectiles and has pretty good normals. Once he's in you're done, if you don't know the match up. - Nu13 (Blazblue CT) She's a zoner and THE best character in that game, she had mad damage and combo potential, and she could combo you even at full screen distances, and that's like just the tip of the iceberg. She was nerfed so hard that ArcSys actually deleted her from the next game.
@nateolison7553
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe Tekken?? Turtling dominated high-level play for years. But "grapplers" don't exist since every grab is techable on reaction, and "zoners" don't really exist either. What about SC? Wasn't Ivy a combination zoner/grappler that consistently showed up in top 8?
@jadendiamondknight5200
2 жыл бұрын
The reason why so many people don't like to play grapplers is because of the basic nature of fighting. Our hands weren't design for striking in mind, but for grasping. There's a reason why most modern Martial Arts had evolved into some sort of grappling hussle: it's safer to throw an opponent down in the floor than it is to K.O. them. Of course it's gonna be frustraiting when the archetypical martial arts' fantasy of knocking down opponents, with basic punches and kicks, gets a rude awakening by the more efficient grappling. This also aplies to fighting games.
@whales6949
2 жыл бұрын
Sorry this comment just makes me laugh, calling grappling in FGs “less fantasy and more realistic” is funny when you got most grapplers like zangief and potemkin throwing you like a ragdoll 500m in the air flipping 7 times and shit, makes no sense comparing it to real life fighting 💀
@VileLasagna
2 жыл бұрын
Trash talking grapplers?!?!? I subbed just to unsubscribed. What a disgrace! But... yeah, a lot of games just never give their grapplers the tools to counter zoning pressure, which is usually where they struggle a lot. Also since Zangief became the daddy of grapplers, in general, a lot of games seem to think they need their grapplers to be Zangief... like, big lumbering type of guy. This just increases the challenge. King of Fighters to me is where they shine. Lots of mobility, lots of different types.... And then the likes of Shermie, Vice and Clark are often pretty pwoerful Anyway, I already knew grapplers were the most powerful, I just clicked for the rage, really =P As for Zoners... maybe what happened to them was just Goenitz and now the entire FGC AND the devs are still processing the trauma and never want to let that happen again
@NeoBoneGirl
2 жыл бұрын
I definitely feel like Zoners are routinely worse than Grapplers now. There's the odd good or even top tier Grappler in some games, but NO game nowadays is gonna let you have a top tier Zoner, you have to go back like 20 years to find one. Not to mention that there's a lot more hybrid grapplers nowadays like Sol Badguy and R Mika showing up who are grapplers but don't have the limited movement of a regular grappler. My vote for top tier archetype is definitely puppet characters because they almost NEVER let puppet characters be bad bc they know the effort they have to put in is more. The only exception is like Rev2.1 Zato (who was top tier for basically all of the prior game) and Enchantress from DNF
@IntermissionVA
2 жыл бұрын
Dhalsim, Poison, Menat? SFV has a lot of strong zoners. That's a game in the past 20 years.
@neverseemstoAsh
2 жыл бұрын
happy chaos in GGST is an example of a modern top-tier zoner
@gilmarmirandadossantos6009
2 жыл бұрын
@@IntermissionVA Yeaahh Zonners are better even if you compare them with grapplers with mobility like Rainbow Mika, Laura in SFV and Clark in KOF
@nnnp634
2 жыл бұрын
Cetrion?
@NeoBoneGirl
2 жыл бұрын
@@nnnp634 NRS games are bad they dont count
@yumejunk4859
2 жыл бұрын
KoF have lot of strong grapplers. Strong, fast, with combos grapplers like Goro, Yashiro, Ramon, Clark, Hinako, Shermie...
@jeako777
2 жыл бұрын
Grapplers are usually bad due to polarizing matchups. Zoners often destroy them in neutral
@jeepersreapers353
2 жыл бұрын
There ARE still those instances where grapplers are broken or at least super viable picks like Jason in MKX, King in Tekken, etc. Potemkin I would have mentioned before but he’s falling off a bit now, though everyone in Strive is viable practically so I wouldn’t say he sucks.
@ProfessorLester
2 жыл бұрын
They always nerf the Grapplers that are good. We're going to take that green hand away, we're going to nerf your normals, universal system mechanics to increase throw a lag,. 1.0 Street fighter 5 Zangif. Kenji , in Persona. Hugo got nerfed a lot in Street fighter 4, R. Mika.
@shaunmcisaac782
2 жыл бұрын
It's all about casuals Pixies are attractive as best characters because casuals can mash for the win. Casuals can't DO command grabs and they won't learn zoning lockdowns. That busted Sailor Moon game had busted grapplers (shocker).
@Redskull1411
2 жыл бұрын
I always liked to compare play stiles to MTG/tcg archetypes. Grappler/wall midrange control: is a slow archetype, it doesn't have a lot of tools but they have this ONE thing, that you know that is showed in the right moment, you are fucked. Is a honest deck but is kind of boring. Zoner/blue control: this is the style that EVERYONE hates to play against. If you are just Umaga bunga an playing you are going to get sad. His play, is not letting you play the way you want it. Is disruptive and everything seems that just shut it down....but I'm reality the other side is making. A lot of guessed and hoping that you don't get aware about it. His players are most into destroying hopes than winning. Shot/mid range: is a honest and solid playstile with a straightfoward gameplan. Nobody loves them, nobody hates them with a passion. They are fine and solid. Rush down/aggro: they have one plan and one plan alone. Killing you and do it it fast, they love this plan, they get frustrated very fast when it's shut down. They win for a landslide or they are completely annihilated. Half of his plan depends entirely that you don't have the tools to counter his tools. Its gets interesting when the clone match happens. Is popular because is the most flashy, cheap and direct way to win.
@thrillhouse4151
2 жыл бұрын
Low Tier God hates shotos with a passion lol but you’re right, he’s no one. I’ve often thought about this same subject, I think some of the weirder characters can be lumped into the combo deck category.
@TheSeriousSentinel
2 жыл бұрын
I don’t mind that grapplers aren’t top tier, it’s that they almost never have tools to deal with projectiles. Try fighting Happy Chaos or Axl in Strive as Potemkin. Literally no fun.
@gingeysnap2090
2 жыл бұрын
>Zoners aren't... great Tfw an entire Studio is known for making Zoning OP (NRS) Edit: Okay he talked about NRS lmao
@noblesseoblige4622
2 жыл бұрын
Ask if we know a game where zoning characters are dominant while playing umvc3 the irony 😭 I don’t think he has experienced Morrigan in umvc3 or cable /storm in mvc2
@SMSELWA
2 жыл бұрын
grapplers are good, when they're conveniently also a good zoner. COUGH COUGH Z BROLY
@OriBu01
2 жыл бұрын
Charge characters isn't an archétype? Because Guile or oro has similar moves to shoto like flashkick or fireballs but you can't play like ken wich is easier to rush down upon your oponent with. The gameplay and thé input are totaly different between this to types of characters.
@wacktastic1
2 жыл бұрын
Sure grapples suck most of the time but if you have grapplers who can combo throw you have a problem. Kings from Tekken and Goh from Virtua fighter is a good example
@randomsheep1165
2 жыл бұрын
I main Starfire - Injustice 2 Morrigan - UMVC3 And yes I don't expect to make a lot of friends😂
@peteypete9357
2 жыл бұрын
This guy: Zoners are bad Sagat in SFII in high difficulty: Allow me to introduce myself
@95mcqueen5
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe the King of Fighters is the only game that take the grapplers seriously. Daimon is ridiculous, he can take any shoto down anytime
@4the_win
2 жыл бұрын
Fun fact: Scrimblo Bimblo has been featured in 3 different franchises, and is still banned from competitive play.
@grimdaggz
2 жыл бұрын
Where would Charge Characters (Guile) fit on your tier list?
@mizutxko
3 ай бұрын
The strongest archetype is Meta Knight, Akuma, and Steve that's it. They are in their own league
@ausreir
2 жыл бұрын
KOF98 Daimon is a monster.
@jamesbenedict7516
2 жыл бұрын
The strongest archetype is Ungga Bungga type. Unpredictable Easy to use And brain dead OP
@m_winewood
2 жыл бұрын
I'm always either a shoto or rush down. I have to be someone that is cool and fun to watch fight. And while a projectile or two in the kit is always good for an opening or a mixup, at the end of the day I just gotta put the feet on you.
@konkeydonk
2 жыл бұрын
Devs don't want zoners to be strong😭😭 why Tough Love Arena's still my main game lmao
@YouAlreadyKnowBabi
2 жыл бұрын
LOL...Zoners now a days are not that strong. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy Chaos is not thriving.
@Dollahnugget
2 жыл бұрын
Who do you guys think is the most broken zoner. Alll ima say is dead shot. Look at EVO and the characters chosen.
@juanrodriguez9971
2 жыл бұрын
Disappointed you didnt mention puppeteer fighter, just kidding, but is an interesting archetype when it comes to balance
@goose_clues
2 жыл бұрын
Not a surprise bc it isn't a major one, but no one in the comment section mentions Mouri from BASARA X who is the beyond strongest shoto & zoner
@FiveGates
2 жыл бұрын
Best example I can think of for a terrible rushdown character is Bullet from Blazblue.
@TGaODe
2 жыл бұрын
Potemkin is built different. Grapplers should take a page out of the Guilty Gear book.
@modnaryug4225
2 жыл бұрын
that kinda reveal my main issue with fighting game. Despite having a lot of different mechanics in action in a fighting game (footsies, mix up, combo, knowledges checks, frame data) in the end... it's always end up being all about combo. (not that the other mechanic don't matter, but being good at combo over being good in any other domain don't compare)
@ThundagaT2
2 жыл бұрын
From my experience not necessarily, you can make do with a simple combo, as long as you can perform a basic b&b combo, that can carry you through a match. Not knowing some of those other things could potentially actually hold you back more. Depending on the game of course
@Liev04
2 жыл бұрын
Android 16 was a demon in dbzf launch, a grappler s tier is just god level
@kylesecord9960
2 жыл бұрын
My only counter argument for grapplers is the fact that R.Mika is a character that exists who is nuts
Пікірлер: 962