I originally thought Eluge, the Shoreless Sea was a freshwater fish. But after running him as a mono-blue control deck with Enter the Infinite / Thassa's Oracle wincon I learned he is definitely a salt-water fish
@NeonV01D
6 сағат бұрын
Small tip: Swap Thoracle for Nexus of Fate. It still wins you the game with Enter the Infinite, but isn’t a dead card if you draw it naturally.
@totakekeslider3835
4 сағат бұрын
I made this deck too but I decided it would never see the light of day for how miserable it was to play against while goldfishing: Constantly returning everything back to everyone’s hand, countering big things here and there, and getting incremental value (until I draw into the same combo you have), etc. I guess this is just the mono blue experience. The only way I’d actually build it is if I went against my personal rule of no tutors in my decks, just so I could find the combo quicker and put everyone out of their misery, lol.
@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299
Сағат бұрын
LOL Not like getting a free spell from Eluge in a colour that can set up infinite blink loops and draw cards would be a problem in a game about resource management, nope not a problem at all here ;p
@spacecanary8786
7 сағат бұрын
Fun fact: Vexing Shusher can also make removal spells immune to Ward abilities.
@Kryptnyt
7 сағат бұрын
"I will avoid paying this Ward 1 by paying one to activate my Vexing Shusher!"
@vovlasc9817
7 сағат бұрын
@@Kryptnyt Most creatures that people would want to remove with ward have at least ward 2 or ward: sacrifice/discard/etc
@toastedmarsh6185
6 сағат бұрын
702.21a Ward is a triggered ability. Ward [cost] means “Whenever this permanent becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless that player pays [cost].”
@Kryptnyt
6 сағат бұрын
@@vovlasc9817 Sure, but it's still funny to do it for the ward 1
@Will_Morand
5 сағат бұрын
@@KryptnytIt’s like when a Rograkh player swings at you turn one with their 0/1. Yeah it does nothing, but it’s funny regardless.
@MomirsLabTech
8 сағат бұрын
Im with Trinket. Individual cards and strategies dont cause salt for me, but spite plays and people getting incredibly upset about not winning/their thing being interacted with does. Like bro these are basic mechanics of the game, please get over it.
@Controlqueen31
8 сағат бұрын
People need to learn that, if their deck get nuts with their Commander out for two or three turns, I'll make sure to blow It up or point out what the deck can do to other players. That's how this format works
@joemontondo9113
7 сағат бұрын
Counter point, ensnaring bridge.
@jben6
7 сағат бұрын
@@Controlqueen31 I would go farther and suggest that if a deck cannot work without its commander in play, it needs to be reworked entirely.
@Kryptnyt
6 сағат бұрын
I think spite plays are just part of the environment, if you remove something expect to get attacked and all that, what I don't like is premeditated collusion. Like I'm playing a game on MTGO and someone mentions to me that the other three players were in a discord call the entire game, that tightened my bloodvessels.
@SwedeRacerDC
6 сағат бұрын
@@jben6 In some cases, it's just the spitefulness of a deck being neutered in general. Or it becomes unfun, because you chose the commander because you find them fun and interesting and not having them makes the deck much more boring. So not having them out might not be the end of the game, but it just takes away the fun of the deck. I might use alternate win cons, but a lot of these aren't as fun. Do I want to win by going infinite? No, but if you try to remove me as a player and setting off a chain reaction to attempt going infinite and taking over is needed, I might do it. Then it's not as fun for everyone.
@Lazydino59
7 сағат бұрын
This video really imo is one of the cruxes why commander can’t stay the face of magic. Competitive constructed taking a backseat to battle cruiser commander means players aren’t accustomed to things such as mana denial as a strategy to win, hard control, etc. socially banning archetypes that are battlecruiser-unfriendly really is not healthy and will always lead to an arms race where everyone tries to go bigger and faster and devolves into a combo-fest
@shorewall
6 сағат бұрын
Commander is basically Kitchen Table Magic. It is the most popular, but the Spikes have no place in it.
@maximillianhallett3055
4 сағат бұрын
@@shorewallAnd yet cEDH exists and I find it way more casual than so-called Casual Commander. Hint, getting upset about how you lose isn’t very casual.
@xavierlanglands9486
2 сағат бұрын
It's not even battle-cruiser imo anymore. All the commander cards are so pushed and synergistic that classic "play one amazing thing a turn" decks just cannot work.
@Skipston55
7 сағат бұрын
When my friends and I started playing EDH about a year or so ago, my best friend made a Yurioko deck right out of the gate. It didn't have some of the truly oppressive combo pieces, but nonetheless, it tore through our play group for a few games, and I was consistently salty about it. "Oh it skips command tax" "It ignores my own board state too easy!" were my complaints, and I'm still kinda in the air about the commander ninjutsu thing but that's a topic for another day. Ultimately though, I came to appreciate the deck. It put a timer on the game that everyone now had to respect. Riskier plays had to be taken, and sometimes Yuriko would get her neck snapped turn 3 as we understood target prioritization better. Context is everything in EDH, and what at first I believed was an OP boogieman I now know is just another creature, with all the same answers as any other creature. Now that we're all better at the game, that slippery ninja now holds a knife sized hole, I mean place, in my heart.
@totakekeslider3835
4 сағат бұрын
I think in the case of Yuriko, she’s an exception because of just how fast she is. She can still just plow through an entire table if everyone at the table isn’t equipped to deal with it. It puts a timer on the game, sure, but I think it’s also way too fast for most casual tables. I can see how it would lead to an arms race of everyone needing to make their decks faster just to combat it and raising the group’s power level overall over time.
@brendans1983
2 сағат бұрын
Beautiful comment 🍻🤘
@this_is_america_speaking
2 сағат бұрын
This right here in my group I'm the aggressive player I'm always attacking putting people on clocks this in my opinion keeps the game moving I can't stand it when I see people say "no one has attacked yet so I'll just wait" never wait even in a casual game the goal is to win sure you can have fun and still lose but your playing a game winning said game is always the goal
@evanprimeau3810
2 сағат бұрын
@@totakekeslider3835 Unless they're playing Doomsday Combo, or Thoracle/Consult with a ton of tutors to turbo it out, Yuriko can often be dealt with pretty easily with removal. People just don't understand Yuriko, and they remove YURIKO instead of the dorks she uses to cheat herself out. Remember: most Ninjas are low power creatures with cool on hit effects but NO evasion! The real threats are, ironically, the Ornithopter/Slither Blade dorks that will get around you blockers. Kill those, and suddenly Yuriko is a 1/3 that has no text, because she can't hit through. Don't KILL YURIKO, she's just going to come back: turn her into a Frog, an Indestructible Insect, a Citizen, an Elk, Imprison her in the Moon for god's sake! As a Yuriko player, I constantly play against people who have god awful threat assessment, and refuse to analyze the play pattern they're seeing every turn to recognize that Yuriko has major weaknesses that every single color in the Color Pie can exploit, they just don't. A single Lightning Bolt on the turn 1 dork can set a Yuriko player behind 2 whole turns, because they can no longer play a Turn 2 mana rock into Ninjustuing Yuriko over the dork, and replay the dork. People don't want to admit it, but in reality, it's often not the decks or cards that are "unfair". It's that many players are too goddamn stupid to adapt to different playstyles. Yuriko specifically abuses the reluctance of players to remove small creatures with 1 for 1 removal, due to the cognitive dissonance of it not being a "good trade', when in reality, it is the correct play.
@adriadelafuente3648
27 минут бұрын
She's still a goddamn menace, and commander ninjutsu, just like Eminence, is an inherently broken mechanic. Having played against her and Derevi, every commander that skirts around the commander tax is infuriating.
@DaGraveCrowder
7 сағат бұрын
My favourite way to deal with Spore Frog loop is to disrespect 'em with an Insult // Injury
@simon_herts
2 сағат бұрын
Well that's one way of course, but what cards would you play?
@Da808info
7 сағат бұрын
As the person with the most experience in my pod, many people tend to throw things my way when they aren't sure who to attack or what to remove. "He's a good player, and has something on the field, so I am going to blow it up." Sometimes I am able to politic my way out of it, but I catch a lot of hate because of my table rep. More so than any other reason. I consider it a gesture of respect.
@elijahlyons8164
4 сағат бұрын
Yeah, sometimes that's the attitude. Just like it's not common to remove the least experienced players stuff since they are still learning
@beingbag2606
6 сағат бұрын
Split second is worth a mention. It's really good against high power decks that play the stack and is generally mid against low power decks that don't. Scales to your game really well.
@AutumnReel4444
3 сағат бұрын
-Removal is based. -If a player is going to trouble you or annoy you, kill them! (in the game lol) -Casual format exists to have fun. The most important part of fun is the deck you are playing. Let people have their favorite deck.
@Quiczor
Сағат бұрын
I also find that players complaining about removal when they are playing only game ending level cards is a problem here too. Like if they play something that if given 1 turn alive will basically swing the entire game then yes we have to remove it, but it feels bad when they are only playing those high cost cards and ramp so the options are basically, completely deny a person existing or lose the game immediately.
@Jeramiahstool
5 сағат бұрын
I wastelanded someone on turn 3 cuz they had ramped to being able to cast their 6 mana commander their next turn and they instantly scooped and just sat at the table being snarky towards me til the game was over. Dude was 30 btw. I agree the biggest problem is adults not knowing how to act like adults.
@DarkJusticeMetal
5 сағат бұрын
I am excited to build my first stax deck, mainly so I can see how my playgroup navigates around it. I'll be sure to remind them that they have two other allies to help solve the problem I present
@DragoSmash
7 сағат бұрын
i agree soooo much with your take of "cards shouldn't make you upset, attitudes should" someone who sits with a clearly overtuned deck in a casual table, flipping Dockside Extortionist, Ragavan, etc, i don't hate those cards, i hate the player for sitting to be a bully in a clearly casual table i hate when someone decides to let the player with a Tamiyo with enough counters to ult slide just to kill some of my random creatures and then proceeds to be an ass to everybody except the player who drew half their deck with Tamiyo
@lancesmith8298
6 сағат бұрын
I do not dislike the guy who stomped my Gishath proxy deck with Golos for having better cards than me. I dislike that guy for telling me “yeah, this Masterwork Mana Vault was a birthday gift” and “I have more decks I could play with the same commander, if you want”. The cards are just a possible hint to the very real privileged asshat behind them
@MothCoveredRock
7 сағат бұрын
Great vid, great takes, perfectly summed up my issue with fast mana at casual tables in like one offhand sentence Also fuck scrambleverse, if someone plays a scrambleverse i just say “hey this one’s not for me” and peace out, feels like a card meant for a game where all of the pieces are meant to go back in the same box at the end of the game, not a game where we all pay money individually for our game pieces and some of them are very expensive
@drunkcapybara7004
3 сағат бұрын
I like the card but i can see how it makes people salty especially when it doesn't contribute to a win. I'd love to hear your thoughts on me playing it in a deck that steals cards but hasn't been doing enough with them, where i plan to change the commander to Don Andres (+2/+2, menace and deathtouch on your creatures you don't own) for that reason. Do you think it's okay to run it in this deck, or still way too much of a pain?
@geoffreywampach2588
3 сағат бұрын
The only deck that I suggested another player take apart was a flicker control deck that had no win-con except opponents skipping their turn. Yes, our group could get adjustments to take this on, but his turns were long and being told to skip another of my turns was just not enjoyable, especially when it didn't give him the W on the third round of it.
@iTXivilai
7 сағат бұрын
2 cards out of the thousands that exist for me. Jeweled Lotus and Fierce Guardianship. Both say the word commander and are free spells. yes plenty of other cards do this but these 2 are, I think, the most egregious offenders of the most negative aspects to come out of RnD in recent years.
@simon_herts
2 сағат бұрын
Personally I dislike any card that has the word 'commander' printed on it. But if my opponent plays them, I won't complain. Their deck, their fun!
@greatbrandini3967
2 сағат бұрын
@@simon_hertsI disagree, there have been many cards designed for Commander that aren't problematic. Command Tower, the lieutenant creatures, the storm cycle (copied for each time you'd cast your commander), equipment with "equip commander" costs, or the green enchantment that cuts your commander tax in half
@simon_herts
2 сағат бұрын
@@greatbrandini3967 Fair enough, some of them are alright. I just don't enjoy playing with many of them
@andrewspears8891
5 сағат бұрын
One of my favorite decks is mostly comprised of ramp, draw, and removal with a fair number of force multiplies. It's Kalamax, so all of said ramp, draw, and removal is at instant speed and almost always getting doubled, which means things that I see as threats don't stay on the battlefield for very long.
@01cortomaltese
18 минут бұрын
What makes me salty : being the only one at the table having answers for big threats.
@boorango122
3 сағат бұрын
the only times I have been salty from an edh game where a card was relevant to the salt are one incident where one player played exploration turn one and snowballed while more importantly behaving exceedingly badly, and the time someone played a card to slow down the archenemy that incidentally locked my deck out of being able to help deal with said archenemy/function at all
@princesssleepyhead8043
7 сағат бұрын
a "no win stax deck" is really fun if you can get other players to also build decks that increase the games entropy. I play a scrambleverse, thieves auction, hive mind, shared fate, etc deck, and my friends play decks that have multiple mana flare abilities, cause insane card draw, and do crazy burn. We call it "killing magic the gathering" and have a ball every time. People dont like feeling helpless in games, which is why interaction is good, but also letting people know what youre up to. For the record you should never scrambleverse or thieves auction with people you dont consider friends imo.
@xPr0j3cTxSiNx
5 сағат бұрын
The point you made about "change your deck to play against X deck" just turns a casual format into an arms race. Opponent plays blue? I'll play "can't be countered" cards. They can't counter my stuff? They'll update their deck with bounce and removal. Also, what if they suddenly decide to just play another deck? The cards should not have been added because you're trying to counter another strategy; it should be to shore up your biggest weaknesses and cover a wider array of common issues.
@thetrinketmage
4 сағат бұрын
Right but what if you play a different deck? Will they cut every counter spell in favor of bounce spells because one player plays a few can’t be countered effects? And a bounce spell is 100% weaker than a counter. So is this not also a win for you? I just don’t get how this would be a problem
@xPr0j3cTxSiNx
3 сағат бұрын
@@thetrinketmage the issue is that we're switching cards to fix a problem born from salt. It's one thing to playtest a deck at a group and think "I didn't have enough card draw or removal," but you're just inviting salt by switching out cards for your deck to play cards that beat the things that make you salty. I believe it can be subjective whether bounce is inherently weaker than countering. In a cedh perspective, its objectively worse; in a casual perspective some people will just find the switch annoying anyway, especially if they committed to the idea of "add cards that beat the first strategy (counterspells) that made me salty."
@drunkcapybara7004
3 сағат бұрын
@@xPr0j3cTxSiNx I think it's more about finding a middle ground. Warping your deck entirely just to beat a specific strategy is of course a big overshoot, but if something specific does make you salty, especially when it happens repeatedly, it's probably a good decision to add at least a few cards than can deal with it well.
@seanedgar164
2 сағат бұрын
"Run more removal" isn't a be all end all. Some stuff will just suck to verse but you can always step away or find people who fit your vibe best
@lemodyne1072
34 минут бұрын
this reminds me of the main retort I tend to have to “rule zero” conversations, which is that you should just enforce your “rule zero” by playing hate towards the cards/archetypes you don’t want to see and skip the conversation altogether
@jben6
6 сағат бұрын
Sadistic Hypnotist in a BG Nath deck is brutal. In any deck with regular token generation, its a beast, but it shines in Nath.
@Gingerbreadley
7 сағат бұрын
Just build your deck to answer an opponents deck and just fill your deck with removal only works if your opponents are doing the same. I did this for years till one day I noticed the format had changed everyone had pulled their removal and we were just expecting others to answer threats. I’m sorry but it’s not an answer when your opponents are running storm artifact combos and stax. None of them want to run answers because it slows their race and filling your entire deck with answers isn’t a solution. If you say “hey can you run more interactive decks” they are stuck between wanting to scrap their deck because no one wants to play them or building a deck type they don’t like. I got a good group now where we all try to be interactive but people have different expectations for commander and some people are just greedy.
@andrewspears8891
5 сағат бұрын
Find ways to build answers into your play style/deck. There's always a way. Artifact combo/storm answer is Rule of Law/Stony Silence type things. Depending on the style of loop, you could also include Rest In Peace if it's graveyard loops, Doorkeeper Thrull (it's a creature though) and the likes for stopping etb loops. And there's an easy handful of commanders that all synergies around enchantments. Build up to slow their game down, and beat face until they submit.
@Gingerbreadley
3 сағат бұрын
@@andrewspears8891 right but then I’m just playing a stax control deck built to police the table that was the problem. I wanted fun interactive decks i didn’t want to be forced to run tons of removal to be basically the sole check on things. Everyone else ran removal to allow their combos I was only running it to stop them. It’s just a difference in play styles. They have more fun now goldfishing and trying to race. I have more fun at a table where everyone runs their own answers threats graveyard hate etc.
@curtisjamesbw
26 минут бұрын
In my playgroup, we have one rule and one rule only; Salty or Spicey plays.
@imaginationave3687
8 сағат бұрын
*Ahem* FIR-(falls into a river) A MAN HAS FALLEN INTO A RIVER, IN LEGO CITY!
@JuQmadrid
51 минут бұрын
Pro tip: include a Catastrophe on your white decks so you can disclose at the beginning of the game you have a card that can wipe all the lands. Then players will start playing more conservatively in fear of the Armageddon and then you use it a creature wipe.
@link5236
8 сағат бұрын
Hey I’m just getting into commander and your videos have been a godsend
@matthewmoran1866
6 сағат бұрын
honestly, same. There's so much good stuff on this channel and lots of great advice for dealing with both the mechanical and social aspects of the game.
@roondar6141
4 сағат бұрын
The only cards I find salt educing are the ones that constantly have the caster interrupt everyone else, namely Rhystic Studies, Smothering Tide, and Esper Sentinel The constant stream of "Do you pay the one? Do you pay the two? Do you pay the one?" gets old real fast
@eccod
5 сағат бұрын
I don’t play commander, but I used to play Legacy a ton back in the day. A few things always made me salty. 1) Force of Will, because every single regular at the LGS I played at ran a playset. I started maindecking red elemental blasts, which won me a few tournaments. 2) Storm combo, because it felt like I had to just sit there while they played solitaire.
@thebigsquig
2 сағат бұрын
The nickname for cards to deal with salt should be “pepper”
@Kulreg777
8 сағат бұрын
This is why Slug is king. Cuz everyone loses equally, while still able to cast stuff. Love it.
@VendiVidiVinci
7 сағат бұрын
Something i would add is that it is OK If you can't beat a card/ set of cards. You dont always be ready against every decks if you can accept to bite the bullet. You can always surrender and look for an other pop, or ask someone to lend you a deck.
@mintcoded
Сағат бұрын
See... I know at this point that it's kinda a meme, but a lot of casual players really enjoy the idea of "everyone getting to do a thing" because they have an hour or two a week to enjoy a hobby that they spent money on. They also either tend to travel to a store or a friend's house (or prepare their own as a host). It can be very difficult to arrange a game at all sometimes, and when a player at said game is just playing a deck that by its inception stops an opponent from being able to play, that can be very frustrating for everyone. I absolutely agree that people getting excessively angry or telling someone to just dismantle a deck is genuinely too far, but the thing about Commander is that it is a very popular format played very casually by a lot of people. I'm not trying to just downtalk your points, and think that for instance discussing what you consider to even be a casual card or not would be a really interesting bit of insight. You mention that someone playing a card that says "Your opponent's can't use the one thing they built their entire deck around" can be beaten by a single counterpsell, but this also would apply to the exact same scrambleverse mention, no? Yes, your example was essentially someone doing what would universally be considered a degenerate move to create their own fun, but creating a Jorn, God of Winter and Stasis Orb board is also the win condition of just stalling out an entire game, potentially leaving three people without an untap phase, while the Jorn player untaps their things every turn. If someone locks down the entire board and nobody can play, waiting three turns to presumably draw all the lands you need, and assuming you had the cards to interact... It makes the "run removal" point a little weaker. I think a reasonable argument can be made that someone may create a deck (hug or chaos) without a real win condition to create unique and engaging games every single game. Ignoring the example of copying a spell that doesn't do much but elongate a game, there can be a real merit to creating weird situations. Your specific example is truly awful and I am sorry you had these experiences. The biggest issue with Commander, which applies to all of your points, is that it looks like people don't communicate in the pre-game.
@PantheraLeo04
6 сағат бұрын
I feel like mill gets way to much hate when in the majority of cases, your good card getting milled is basically the same as it being buried at the bottom of your library where you're never gonna draw it. Stax and discard effects are both frustrating because they stop you from being able to take game actions, but mill doesn't do that so I don't understand where the hate comes from.
@jcstaff1007
7 сағат бұрын
14:12 going by your definition. A lot of cards, even outside of being used as a combo piece would be incredibly hard to interact with. Grixis can’t interact well with enchantments. (Now it can more often thanks to feed the swarm and the new card from duskmorn) and dockside can’t be interacted with outside of blue stifles/counters and niche white stax pieces. Not to mention dockside often propels players to a win through sheer value or a combo. So are these types of cards ok to run in casual in your opinion? Dockside, smothering, rhystic/mystic?
@tthien93
5 сағат бұрын
In addition many casual edh players don't run that much removal so sometimes even 3v1 doesn't work well either
@Gork862
Сағат бұрын
In my eyes, cards like dockside and the others you mentioned are high-power cards. By putting it in your deck, you’ve just made your deck stronger and now it’s a higher power level. As long as you’re still playing against equal power level decks, it won’t matter. But if you show up acting like your deck is a 6 and then pop out a dockside I’m gonna be upset, not because of the card but because you lied about how strong your deck is.
@jonpiest4648
6 сағат бұрын
As the resident Chaos player in my community, I have just three things to add. 1. Scrambleverse is also a fantastic way to become the Archenemy while piloting Zedruu or Blim. Bounce commander to hand, cast the Scramble (or Thieves' Auction, a frankly better card), float your mana rocks, recast commander. Profit. 2.If someone has 10+ mana to copy a scrambleverse, and NOBODY deals with it? Shame on the Chaos player for needlessly adding entropy to the stack, it doesn't make the game meaningfully more complex. That having been said, who let the Chaos player have 10+ mana? 3.I challenge any Stax player who believes their Salt is unwarranted while Chaos's is to play against a Grand Arbiter equipped with a Helm of the Host.
@Scherezad_
7 сағат бұрын
There are very few cards that make me salty in their own right. Mostly ways to disproportionately disable given players with limited meaningful counterplay, or that protect themselves. And even then, it's partially an attitude issue. Vorinclex? Go ahead. Just don't be mad when I do my darnedest to make it gone. Back to Basics? Worst Fears? Overwhelming Splendor? I would rather not. Mind, my perspective on the latter two is heavily colored by my playgroup, and the fact that I'm the target of them what feels like annoyingly often. ... Maybe I should make a Shallai deck.
@Gulpathfinder
4 сағат бұрын
Poor sportsmanship makes me salty. I have some examples of this. 1. Some people refuse to switch to lower power decks when their first deck is easily dominating the table. 2. Some people have the table pretty much locked but refuse to allow scooping. They’re use harsh / threatening language against anyone who wants to scoop. 3. Some people go overboard with politicking. They’ll use things like ethnicity, county of origin, or current/past personal problems in their attempt to “politic.” I remember a guy who kept saying borderline racist shit to a guy who had the best board state. The talking must have worked, because it caused him to misplay, which ultimate caused him to lose. In the end, shit talker said something like “so typical of (people from his country)… always losing in everything.”
@BetaBoXs
7 сағат бұрын
My saltiest deck is Book of Exalted Deeds and Mutavault. You can't win, I can't lose, rest of the deck is just focused around protecting that land and graveyard removal so that we all wait 100 turns for you to mill yourself
@I8venison
5 сағат бұрын
Thinking about what you could have done or what you can change about your deck to handle different situations is why I've been keeping up with magic for the last 10 years. My Goreclaw deck has so many tech pieces put in and pulled out depending on how it performs. He's pretty right imo :)
@Shimatzu95
3 сағат бұрын
Something something, controlplayer says just control the board. In all seriousness, saying play more removal is a good way of being correct without being helpful. Generally I would consider a casual game to be one where cards that shut down entire strategies unless removed to not be in the ideal of the format. That said the inability of people to objectively control the powerlevel of their deck is something i belive only a acive change of the banlist (aka banning for powerlevel and salt) can fix, since rule 0 can go both ways just unban salty cards there.
@Zee-jp9vn
4 сағат бұрын
This video convinced me to rebuild a super friends deck I love planes walkers but some people at my shop would get salty so I threw the deck in the trash (literally) I now play with more open people and can play decks I want to play
@Saurcroc34
6 сағат бұрын
I totally agree with all your points, the social issues are the things that make me salty, the guy that eat at the table, the one that doesn't talk or interact and only focus on his cards....and so on. I have fun as long as my deck can do its thing even if I don't win, If i can interact with players or be the threat at the table, cool for me I had fun. But the biggest issue to me is when you play with strangers for the first time at your LGS or elsewhere, you should disclose a bit what their deck is about and the power level, I've seen a guy saying he played artifacts and secret lair cards only to play lara croft as a commander and bring back mindslaver and control the turn of people (fun but very salty) on top of playing with the one rings etc against precons. Or another example is when I played a 3 players game because there were no people left to play at the LGS and the guy just played mono blue mage only to counter spell everything we did with the other player, even when we teamed up for the whole game we could not play our cards because he kept drawing and counter spelled, we watched him play solitaire with 40 cards in hands. To me the real issue is to have the same power level or at least to adapt the deck you play if the conditions change, 3 players games are very different of 4 ones. I don't want to play against a persist infinite combo deck if I bring a precon.
@vileluca
4 сағат бұрын
I recently got complaints that my $30 budget Prossh deck had a Goblin Bombardment combo in it. So i rebuilt the deck to rush out Prossh's kobolds and buff them with stuff like Pack Attack. No combos, just kobolds aggro. Its been a month and the deck has yet to lose.
@lunedemort
53 минут бұрын
The most salty thing at any table is when someone gets mad over something silly, and spend the rest of the game sigh, complaining, crying, whining. No one can have fun with someone like that. i've watch your spelltable video recently, at some point one guy is salty about a lock you "might" play on a 'non-combo table'... it was something like a 6 cards 24 mana combo and it didn't come up during the game. i would purposfully avoid that guy on locals. Good video o/
@NerdsofWisdom
7 сағат бұрын
If I'm playing a deck I try to consider its weaknesses and find a solution to add to it. Red struggles with enchantments... So I try to have something that can deal with an enchantment, even if it means I'm paying more mana or using colourless, or something not ideal. It just means that I have weaknesses, but I know if I do hit that situation, I have a chance to dealing with it.
@charlescourtwright2229
4 сағат бұрын
The only thing that makes me truly salty is hand rip effects
@xavierlanglands9486
Сағат бұрын
At this point, the onlt good thing about commander are the videos you make about it. I have a playgroup I used to play with, and it's completely ruined the format for me. I can't play removal because players get salty when I target theyre special card instead of any other. If I trh attacking with aggressive creatures, I'm tye bad guy for not "spreading the love". And God forbid I stick in hate pieces for free spells. Commander is definitely a cool format, but a lot of people forget that, at the end of the day, everyone is trying to win. You cant get salty whenever you lose or get interacted with, because that's simply how magic works. Anyways, I really enjoyed this video. Vindicates a lot of my thoughts I've had about commander and the people who play it.
@SlashGiefs
Сағат бұрын
I think my problem with most expensive card is not the price, its the fact that they are individually so incredibly powerful that they warp the game around them. Last week i had 2 players play a turn 3 rhystic study and had 3 of my enchantment removal countered. My entire game just revolved around paying the 1 and hoping i topdeck removal. For me personally commander is about taking a cool pile of 100 cards that interact with eachother in cool ways. Rhystic study, cyclonic rift or dockside ar an auto include in ny decks in their color because they dont require anything else to work well
@defectivesickle5643
7 сағат бұрын
I definitely agree with the overall point of the video, but not really to the section where you list counters to strategies I'm not necessarily of the opinion that players should feel the necessity to insert specific tech cards primarily to counter certain archetypes
@keef920
4 сағат бұрын
I’m interested to hear how salubrious snail deals with salt…
@greatbrandini3967
2 сағат бұрын
I would assume he'd just shrivel up and die. I hear snails don't handle salt too well
@Quiczor
2 сағат бұрын
An interesting point I find as you mention removal being good for the game because it deals with things that give you problems. Yeah I totally agree with this, though to a certain point I am noticing the powercreep of magic the gathering, with lower and lower cost cards being problematic and requiring removal. This is also partially because I am coming back to magic after 10 years, but way more often I'm finding 3-4 cost cards that are 100% removal required basically the turn they drop, which leads to more removal being required in the decks, which then eventually leads to the choice of, do I want to play more removal to increase my chance to deny their plays, or just commit more to value on my side to force them to remove my stuff.
@rickerpelding7606
Сағат бұрын
EXACTLY! At this point I'm playing little to no removal and playing more cards that need to be removed.
@SawedOffLaser
7 сағат бұрын
A friend of mine has a chaos deck that can copy Scrambleverse. The only time he ever brought it out against me, he flat out said "this deck has no win condition, it just makes the game state insanely confusing." Needless to say he got really familiar with Kaalia and her pals. "I have no win con" at my table means "you die first".
@someepicnerd7821
3 сағат бұрын
This thought process is why I hate when people say black shouldn’t have any way to remove enchantments because it’s out of the color pie. Interaction is a core part of the game and every color has to have some way to interact with all the things you will likely see in a game. It shouldn’t be as good at it as other colors but I have to have the ability to interact with a rest in peace in my black graveyard decks otherwise I will be stacked out for the rest of the game
@LollieHollie137
Сағат бұрын
Great video! My playgroup mostly already plays the way you describe. My question is: what is your opinion on more edge-case "unbeatable" cards? One example, that comes up a lot in my play group is Constant Mists. As my playgroup's resident monocolor enthusiast I often find Constant Mists to be just an "I win" card if I'm playing green, since green has very few ways to win outside of combat damage. Another example (pre Withering Torment) is playing a monoblack aristocrats deck against a Rest in Peace. Sure there exists outs (I have killed with a Ram Through through a Constant Mists and Feed the Swarm exists). But I feel as if I am put into a situation where I am forced to hard focus that one player down (which they often complain about) or my deck is shut off with little ways to fight back.
@Shikigami6
2 сағат бұрын
Definitely agreeing about people playing waaaay to few interaction spells or even worse, getting salty about interaction. The only things that make me salty, is when it is hard for most decks to interact with it. If my mono-black deck gets shut down because of a Dauthi Voidwalker: fine, black is very good at removing creatures and I should be able to handle it. If my mono-balck deck gets shut down because of something like Rest in Peace: Well, guess I will just sit there until I topdeck my Feed the Swarm. but even then it is fine, because it is somewhat my bad for relying to heavily on one strategy. The most salt inducing card for me personally is Dockside Extortionist. 1. People somehow think it is a casual card (maybe because its a creature?) and will put it in all kind of decks. 2. It is so hard to interact with since most people will reanimete or flicker, even if you destroy or counter it. 3. It gives a stupid advantage for not just one turn like a ritual. 4. It fits into almost every strategy. Is still don't understand why something like Primevil Titan is banned because it is "game warping", while Dockside does the same thing but 4 turns earlier.
@woliver2200
5 сағат бұрын
I was about to take apart my storm deck with Aragorn, but then I watched this video. Thanks!!!!
@Sunborne187
3 сағат бұрын
it kinda sounds like you want us to play with sideboards in EDH? I mean, very few decks can be "oops, all removal" decks without losing what makes the deck synergize. This is why, for the most part, i play interaction that synergizes in some way with my commander.
@thetrinketmage
2 сағат бұрын
Not so much a sideboard but build for your meta. A few years back I had 2 friends playing talrand oops all counterspells. I didn’t sideboard for them but I certainly added more uncounterable things to my decks and it helped a lot. If nobody plays blue in your playgroup then maybe you can play more instants or sorceries since those can’t be stoped as easily without blue. It’s fine to tech for what you generally see
@vTesseracTv
6 сағат бұрын
It might be a better idea to substitute "interaction" in a lot of the places you say "removal". Protection and disruptive magic are just as or even more important depending on the deck. Heroic intervention can be just as important to winning a game as a counterspell or swords to plowshares. Running protection as a way to maintain a lead or counterspell to backup a win attempt is just as important as slowing down your opponent enough for you to play out your win. As a newer player I loaded up on counterspells and exile effects and was great at not dying, but had fragile win attempts and a hard time building back up after being knocked down.
@DarkDealer666
4 сағат бұрын
I will admit that sometimes I encounter a winter orb or other card that prevents the rest of us from really playing anymore and I get a bit annoyed. But I definitely agree with you, especially about players being the bigger issue, not individual cards. I had a player at my first LGS for a while who was just awful to play against. He was the type to angrily form a vendetta against you for the rest of the day if you messed with his stuff... it was bad. He also tended to play higher powered decks. But there was another guy at the same LGS who played fairly high-powered decks most of the time, but he was totally cool, so playing against him was fine for the most part. And I personally happen to be a control player primarily (I have two dedicated control decks and most of my other decks have decent control elements), but I don't play control in a mean or unreasonable way, and I am generally (so I have been told) fun to play against, so most players do not get upset if they play against my control deck, and if I win the 1v1 with 20+ cards in hand, most of my opponents go, "Well, probably shouldn't have left him till last," rather than getting super salty. So yeah, players matter way more than individual cards.
@darebrained
45 минут бұрын
I had a handful of decks I took apart over the years because I didn't think the play patterns they created lend themselves to an enjoyable experience for other players (Marchesa Infect) or would just make me the turn 0 archenemy for the commander alone (@TheSenTriplets). Nobody *told* me to not play them anymore, mind you, but I just felt like playing them was not "creating fun" for the table and myself. I still have one deck of that ilk - Azami - which a friend described with the words "I have never seen a deck so full of love and so full of hate". While I put a self-imposed restriction upon this deck to run no instants or sorceries - or Mind over Matter, for that *matter* - it is still probably my most powerful deck.
@Sestze
4 сағат бұрын
"Don't try to get people to not play certain decks by asking them not to play them or having an open discussion, instead metagame and politick in such a way to remove their deck's ability to play the game. Make the experience so awful they never want to play that deck (or possibly magic) ever again." You sound fun.
@Sestze
4 сағат бұрын
holy shit you're actually calling for people in pods to play mind twist. you're a sick bastard.
@Sestze
4 сағат бұрын
And then the gall to say, "I hate it when people kingmake." Yeah if you mind twist me, I'm sticking in that game until I see you dead or sad or both. Maybe you're the architect of your own salt with what you consider fun play at mid-level tables.
@101stumphead
4 сағат бұрын
I truly believe a large issue is so many, possibly most, commander players have never played 1 v 1 magic before. They become introduced through thr precons because, hey, that's what is on the shelf. And those precons hyper focus on constructing a board state of value engines and put their efforts on supporting their synergy. The way those decks are conducted is with minimal interaction sonolayers believe everything is a clock. They treat it like settlers of Catan instead of realizing they can burn down crops of their neighbors or remove their railroads. My deck with the most wins currently is a green white dragon tribal dekc with a heavy focus on instant interaction. It uses a surplus of both removal and protection. About 20 or more cards are instant interaction. The deck does not focus a lot on the board so it goes unnoticed, then it just smacks really hard with a big dragon and when people try anything I use protection spells and then remove their biggest threats to disrupt their engines
@christop3147
6 сағат бұрын
The biggest salty moment for me was I played a Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy and someone at the table said it was a bs card and I am a POS for running it and proceeded to hit me for 20 Ur Dragon commander damage turn 3
@vincentsissom4180
7 сағат бұрын
I also rarely get salty, and I get salty more often at my own actions than I do at my opponent because of my mistakes. I just wished that other people would play more budget decks or Pauper Commander more often.
@tashannoc
4 сағат бұрын
Only time I ever felt salty was getting stuck in a game where it got down to 1v1, then my opponent stopped me from doing ANYTHING. and did 1 damage per round. No finisher. No end game plan. Just 1 player magic. Actually, I'm still salty.
@thebigsquig
2 сағат бұрын
That’s a totally legit strategy for 1v1
@adriadelafuente3648
11 минут бұрын
Wow you got YuGiOh'd there, no wonder it made you mad.
@ausiidnd
7 сағат бұрын
I wonder how you feel about Thieves' Auction given your opinion on Scrambleverse; actually, Scrambleverse is the only chaos card I don't run in my Neheb the Eternal Group Burn deck that's otherwise full of chaos cards. But I've won many games by playing Warp World and most recently Chaos Warp + Radiate in order to pull my expensive damage-doubler or damage-tripler permanents from my deck :^) plus, everyone else gets to shuffle through their own decks and pull out some wacky cards in the process
@sunbro7853
6 сағат бұрын
What makes me salty is a scenario like this: Player A: Hey B, I’ll attack you with Brash Taunter. You block with everything and I’ll send all the damage at him (me)
@thatonefirekestral
6 сағат бұрын
That's called politics, one of the main attractions of commander is that you can team up with your opponents. If, on the other hand player A lied about who they'd target, I think everyone at the table would be justified in ganging up on that player an never trusting them again
@thguy22
6 сағат бұрын
I experience unneeded salt when i plah mothman. People groan and even scoop before the game even starts because they dont wanna play against mill. They don't even allow the deck to play out and see that only 10% is mill, the rest is just +1/+1 counter support.
@seanedgar164
2 сағат бұрын
Bruvac can run something like 6 different one shots, some hit each opponent. I took them out of mine and he was manageable
@jaceg810
Сағат бұрын
Soo, I should try to rescue my Oloro creatureless creature hate deck from behind the shed, where I last left it? It was a blast to play grindy control matches, and with a bit of a facelift, it can have some more win conditions.
@michaelk6071
8 сағат бұрын
Just posted 3 minutes ago, here's to hoping for more caterpillar music
@thetrinketmage
7 сағат бұрын
Uhhhh… music by the same artist but I mixed it up this time and did not play any of those songs… next time though!
@TheJakk5
6 сағат бұрын
I only get salty when someone pulls out the same turn combo wins where I had no chance to counter or stop the combo because they can knock out all players from 40 life. It is something I can be aware of but it sucks when I shuffle up my deck just to get wiped out after 5 turns.
@kunopumpernikkel215
3 сағат бұрын
If you think The One Ring is so busted, then WHY play it?
@hugmonger
2 сағат бұрын
Okay look... Stax me out, blow up my land, literally eat my deck... I don't care... But if you play chaos cards... I'm out. Maybe one game then I'm out
@brendans1983
3 сағат бұрын
I do the same, 0 salt score on every card. Then a Hitsune Miku SL card popped up.... 5 on all the IP's I don't like haha
@nelsonmatos5948
7 сағат бұрын
I rather be max staxed than any type of scrambleverse type effect. Even possibility storm I hate.
@BlightDragonBrewery
6 сағат бұрын
Just play what you want to play. People need to stop whining so much. I also think people whine way too much about ban lists. Also, as far as salty commanders go; you can play play Tergrid, Toxrill or whatever; Just know you’ll probably be public enemy #1 if you do. People need to get over it. There’s a lot of pettiness out there these days.
@spitfyre8661
7 сағат бұрын
My playgroup and randoms that come into the store let me get away with playing almost any card that I want to. The main thing I have found to consider is how you play the cards and your general attitude in the game. Last weekend I slammed the 10 mana jin gitaxis that dumps hands and gets me to draw 7 each turn but the table didnt get salty about it they just laughed because of how I played it. I didnt play it to be spiky but instead I slammed it after asking if they wanted to see a funny 10 drop that may annoy them 😂
@GeneralJerrard101
2 сағат бұрын
Rhystic Study always makes me salty. You either let an opponent run away with the game, or all your spells cost 2 more and you don't get to play. Don't tell me to just run removal, black has maybe two cards that can touch it, red will need chaos warp. And no one at the table is willing to bully aomeone for having it because... I don't know, maybe because all of them are running it too, or running a deck so fast it won't matter.
@TheAngelRaven
7 сағат бұрын
Cards that shut off my deck entirely [Jodah v Drannith Mag.], Stax decks in a casual non-high power setting, Blue decks that are just Control.exe, Azorius decks that are just Control.exe, people ignoring the obvious threat [That guy with 2 Smother Tithes and 2 of you AREN'T paying before the second is made?], 2-Card wincons that don't fit the deck, heavy tutor usage, Planeswalker Decks [Yes, this was mentioned, but most times they have enough boardwipes and pillowfort effects for ME to deal with while the others tend to durdle.], and PLAYERS NOT UNDERSTANDING THREAT PRIORITIES. I started playing against a tuned Urza LHA, so my bias and learning has accelerated to deal with such. I can overlook most things, but Stax in casual non-high power, Control decks for Control deck sake, and Threat Priority are my three biggest annoyances. TP is my biggest of those three because I understand how, say, the Planeswalker deck is going to play out most times or how the Azorius deck just sitting back with Smothering/Rhystic is going to become a problem FAR sooner than the others accept.
@snrristurlosen2388
Сағат бұрын
If you don't find some cards salty I don't think you should vote on what are salty cards
@KenshinKura
7 сағат бұрын
For me its attitude but its the "I'm a better player" one. We have a player who's constantly saying things like he plays cedh, spends 100s on cards every month, is the best of his friends and so on but when you play against him he doesnt know how trample works, asks players how much money they paid for cards when they're played. He just feels very draining and toxic to be around in a game.
@BeetleBuns
3 сағат бұрын
he sounds like the type of person the playgroup HATES but are too nice to kick out of the group...
@kazothearcane
4 сағат бұрын
I've seen spite plays use targeted removal on basic lands to take a player out of a colour. The only salt play in my opinion is resetting the game when it should be ending. I favour asymmetric board clears for this reason. Resetting your own board is never a positive.
@jeremiahjones9940
7 сағат бұрын
Modern mtg players don't enjoy learning how to build/play around different strategies anymore. They see anything they arnt prepared for as broken or "cEDH." People need to learn that every deck has its good and bad matchups and sometimes sometimes you'll get that bad matchups.
@lukebortot7625
5 сағат бұрын
The problem with the "saltiest" cards are all almost entirely the result of new players (and a small minority or sadists). Many new players, myself included will accidentally run some of these hard stax pieces without having them be part of a combo and have no way to end the game once they play them. I have been in pods where players just casually drop Armageddon and Winter Orb with no greater plan than to just slow the table down. If you have a legitimate plan and a way to win, as far as I'm concerned you can play whatever you want.
@domicci4460
7 сағат бұрын
The only card I find that makes me salty is most of the time is smothering tithe and thats purly for the balance of it they get +1 or I get -2 i never expect people to pay for it. Now rustic study only makes me salty if someone doesn't pay when they could have but that's the player not the card
@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299
Сағат бұрын
Interaction is vital :P
@alexanderficken9354
4 сағат бұрын
im usually fine with anything, but MAN does zur's weirding make me pissed off to no end
@redwood1542
3 сағат бұрын
what do you think about scooping to stop someone from using your stuff to win/beat another player?
@thetrinketmage
2 сағат бұрын
I would consider that something outside the game and it does annoy me. If someone did that even if it “saved me” I would concede
@HeavyMetalMouse
5 сағат бұрын
Yeah... the one thing that gets me salty is someone who seems to be deliberately wasting my time. Ironically, in the tables I play in, it's not the Chaos decks that do that; the chaos decks have a plan to take advantage of the chaos, or at the very least make things interesting then die easily. No, the decks that piss me off are the "The game can't end until I draw my finisher" style of control/stax decks that occasionally show up. Decks whose plan is to stop the game from being able to happen while they slowly work through their options to try and find something that they can actually close out the game with; or worst, they *have* the win on the board but don't see it, or won't use it, just to draw out the game longer, out of some misguided idea that ending a game is bad or something. If you have the win, take the win. If you're doing you get your lockdown down, don't make us sit around waiting for your wincon. And for Garfield's sake, don't act salty about threat assessment or gaslight people about threat assessment. All that does is make newer players afraid to accurately threat assess, which makes the whole game measurably worse. Whenever I see a player apologize for accurately determining a card I'm playing is the threat, then countering it, I'm like "No, no you're not sorry. You saw that card was dangerous and you used the cards in your deck to stop it. That's called playing Magic." I'm not mad at the person apologizing, I'm mad at whoever trained them to be afraid of pissing off their opponents. Like... yes, I tried to resolve a Bolas' Citadel. If someone doesn't counter or destroy it, you know it is going to eventually get crazy. You have to decide if you deal with it now, or if what another player might do this turn is more immediate a threat - you have to choose whether to counter. I may disagree, but *I am clearly biased in this situation*. That's why I always try to reinforce "No, you did the right play. I'm screwed over because I played my big threat into possible countermagic without a backup plan and hit a mana clump. It happens." :P
@ENCHANTMEN_
5 сағат бұрын
"just draw the out bro" doesn't really justify using cards that effectively say "your opponents can't have fun" in a casual format. Counters don't make unfun cards fun.
@ENCHANTMEN_
5 сағат бұрын
In one Pokemon Smogon format, there was a strategy using Baton Pass that was extremely easy to disrupt and not very good, but also very frustrating and uninteractive to play against. So they banned it, not because it's overpowered, but because it makes the game worse by existing.
@thetrinketmage
5 сағат бұрын
I played a lot of smogon and you can still do many baton pass things. I think a better example would be sleep clause. Which was overpowered and stalled out the game. I think playing a pillow fort card that makes it hard for your opponents to attack you is very far from they “can’t have fun”
@jmanwild87
5 сағат бұрын
@thetrinketmage i mean i think they're referring to stuff like playing a winter orb or something. Even if you have the removal for it in deck it can be very miserable to play against something that slows you to a crawl if you don't have an immediate answer for it. And the issue with something like discard for decks that can't really deal with cards like enchantments is discard doesn't stop stuff that already hit the table is proactive and useless in the late game along with having the normal one for one issue in commander. Counterspells at least have the benefit of being reactive and therefore are always capable of stopping a game winning spell.
@melind82
7 сағат бұрын
you missed the best card to stop control decks, boil
@jmanwild87
4 сағат бұрын
I feel like part of the issue with this is that a lot of this video comes down to "play more interaction because then it's less of an issue if someone does something that would be salt inducing" but this is sort of minimizing the issue. "Just play the out bro." Doesn't stop the many times where you might not have the out and that's salt inducing because many of these cards basically say. " you deal with me or the entire game becomes about me." And even if someone does run 15+ answers. To general problems There's a decent chance you don't run into any. And that's salt inducing for a lot of players. Really that's the big salt mine here. If someone say Kaalia of the Vast into something like Cataclysm if i don't have something to kill Kaalia or keep my board I'm gonna be a little salty because even if i had like a dozen answers none of that mattered because i didn't have them when I needed them
@rulamagic
3 сағат бұрын
Player removal is the best removal.
@joelhatterini6392
4 сағат бұрын
People at my LGS HAAAAAATE my decks. Or at least they say they do. I like playing heavily interactive decks that let me play both from my hand and from my board. I've had some people threaten to kill me (not in game), repeatedly, for playing my Nemata aristocrats toolbox deck. If I took apart every deck I've been told is unfun, I'd have no decks left. Don't get me wrong, I've abandoned deck ideas that I could not make work, or that I found tedious to play (Izzet storm lists in particular), but I am not going to take apart my decks, which I think are very reasonable - ESPECIALLY because they are all built with cards that were at some point legal in a Standard format and contain none of the made-for-commander or straight-to-modern bombs that everyone else plays - because someone doesn't *like* it. I think people need to start learning to make their decks more robust, even in casual. If you are playing a graveyard combo deck, and my Nemata deck shuts it down just by having the commander out, please play Swords to Plowshares. I beg you. I won't even blame you. I am literally designing a Kayla stax/MLD deck I am calling Midrange Value Pile Crusher 9000, to encourage people to play more robust against me, and against each other. It is so, SO unhealthy for Commander how people will just arbitrarily cut entire playstyles away from the format because they don't want to design a deck with proper countermeasures for other peoples' gameplans.
@victorpassos4355
7 сағат бұрын
Honestly, i think that "The rule 0 talk" is over emphasized. People lost the ability to watch a table beforehand and judge if you want it or not to play on it. Play whatever you like, and deal with the consequences, in the end of the day, is just a casual game. I've seen a lot of games that someone won in a really annoying way, just to get piled on the next game. It happens. We all must be inclusive to the new player, i know, but the new player also must learn, win and lose.
@jmanwild87
5 сағат бұрын
The thing with the whole "Watch a table see if you want to jump in" is that you lose the ability to do that if you're playing online with randoms. Hence the rule zero talk and the emphasis for it because i don't wanna play against a deck that does something like Kaalia into Cataclysm if I'm just looking to play Zombie tribal beats.
@chayadol
4 сағат бұрын
Damn playing Scrambleverse with copy spell is just down right evil LOOOL I have chaos-Group Hug deck, and I used to have Thief Auction in my deck cos I saw a ton of Chaos Deck has one. I did use it in two games and I have to take that card out. It take so damn long to gather all nontoken permanents (Yep including land) and auction one by one. Also it's really tedious to return everything back after the game done. So Imagine someone use Thief Auction and copy spell.......
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