I think there are several important facts about Beorn that get neglected when trying to understand how he came about his powers. These extend beyond the mere ability to turn into a bear, but do not necessarily include any particular ability to control animals. That later apparent ability may simply be a function of his ability to speak to at least some animals in their own tongue - an ability shared with Gandalf and Radagast and elves, and potentially others. That coupled with suitable training, and potentially breeding, would be enough to accomplish the wonders demonstrated by his domestic animals. So, in addition to being able to turn into a bear, Beorn is: 1) able to vary the size he has as a bear, or at least, that size varies passively based on his mood. 2) largely resistant to, or immune to weaponry. 3) extremely long lived. The first two facts we learn from his description in The Battle of Five Armies, where he "Came alone, and in bear's shape; and he seemed to have grown almost to giant size in his wrath" - which indicates he was substantially larger than "the great bear" Bilbo saw shadowing the party as they approached Mirkwood. And again, we read that "... no weapon seemed to bite on him" - which is not a natural property of bear skin. Regarding his age, we learn from Gandalf that Beorn carved the steps in the Carrock himself from Gandalf, but that the path on top of the Carrock was "well worn". Of course, it takes a long time to wear a path in rock, and if Beorn created the path (which is suggested by his having carved the stairs), and was its primary if occasional user - that indicates that he had been going to the top of the Carrock for decades, if not for centuries. Furthermore, we also learn from Gandalf that Beorn probably came from the Misty Mountains, having been drive out when the orcs became too frequent their. At the latest, that would indicate a date around the time of the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs (TA 2793-2799) in which the power of the Dwarves in the Misty Mountains was shattered, and after which the Orcs became numerous in those mountains. Given that Bilbo and co. meet Beorn in TA 2941, that would suggest Beorn is at minimum around 140 years old when then met - and he survived many decades afterwards. Arguably, however, the Orcs first became numerous in the mountains during the time of the Kingdom of Angmar, when Gundabad first fell to the Orcs - which means he would have survived for around a thousand years. On either reading, he is unusually long lived for a human (and even more so for a bear). A fourth fact we need to bear in mind is that while his trait is heritable, the ability reduced over the generations. We are told that "... for many generations men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape" but that they were "... less in size and strength" - which is a fair indication of that reduction. In addition, that there were many generations between the time of Bilbo's journey and the last known edit of the Red Book of the West March (at the time of Peregrin Took's Great Grandson) suggests that the men of Beorn's line did not live as long as Beorn - even using the lower estimate of his age at the time he met Bilbo. This again indicates imperfect heritability. This is already too long as a comment, so I won't draw specific conclusions from these facts except to note that the imperfect heritability precludes Beorn from having inherited his abilities from a long line of ancestors who possessed the ability from the first age.
@jonathanreal8018
3 жыл бұрын
There are examples in Tolkien universe of individuals achieving greatness, singularly, on their own. I like Gandalf's theories: a bear that figured out how to become man, or a man that figured out how to become bear. Just as a result of greatness, and unlikely enough to never happen again.
@pwmiles56
3 жыл бұрын
Great food for thought. Actually Beorn fits to quite a wide class of fairy-story, the "animal marriage" e.g. Frog Prince. It doesn't have to be a frog, e.g. The Black Bull of Norroway (which Tolkien knew from a boy) is a variation on the theme. The enchanted palace, the prohibition on seeing the Prince in animal form, go all the way back to Cupid and Psyche. Now Luthien by her "arts" gives herself the form of a bat, and Beren that of a werewolf. In the song-battle with Sauron Finrod sings about shape-shifting as a positive thing. In On Fairy-stories Enchantment is classed as an Art, distinct from Magic. So Beorn's "enchantment" is a kind of deception, not necessarily evil. How he came under it we never find out. Shippey points out a parallel with Hrolf's saga (AOTC p.31). There could be a dash of berserker, "bear-shirt", which is how Beorn comes across in the Battle of the Five Armies. No weapon bites on him, which is definitely a berserker thing
@kristianh.pedersen2
3 жыл бұрын
In the Silmarillion the valar Yavanna persuades Illuvatar to send spirits to middlearth to protect the plants and animals she has created. This is supposed, correctly im my opinion, to refer to the ents, but it can also mean other beeings as well, such as Tom Bombadil, Goldenberry and Beorn. I quote 'Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna shall awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.' Sounds to me like a pretty good description of Beorn.
@Crafty_Spirit
3 жыл бұрын
Hi :-) But I don't see how Beorn or Tom Bombadil are protecting vegetation or animals in any way... and by the way, excuse the nitpicking, but these spirits were afaik only meant to protect trees, as animals can run away
@GirlNextGondor
3 жыл бұрын
I know especially in his later writings Tolkien tried hard to reconcile and explain all the divergent creatures in M-E. I get the sense that in his earlier writings he was more comfortable with the idea of "neutral" magical entities -- Beorn, Ents, Eagles, Bombadil, Caradhras, the Watcher, the Old Forest -- weird things that no one could quite explain. I understand why he worked to fit them logically into the mythology, but I dunno, I kind of like the sense of mystery. Made it seem that Middle-earth was much bigger than one story could contain.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, Christopher notes the tension in I think Morgoth’s Ring, discussing his father’s attempt to reconcile the creation story of the Silmarillion with what we know now from scientific discovery. Tolkien seemed interested in making the legendarium jive with facts but it would almost certainly have come at severe aesthetic cost. I can understand the impulse because he wanted it to be consistent with his own faith as well as science so as not to put falsehoods in the mouth of divine characters.
@annekockelmann5464
3 жыл бұрын
Would it be in any way possible that the line of Beorn is descended from Elured or Elurin? Them being from the line of Melian and Luthien, they could have possibly possessed the power to change shapes. As far as I remember correctly, it was never outright stated that they died in the aftermath of Doriath, only that they were last seen in the woods.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Good point, though the strong implication is that they died.
@caos1925
2 жыл бұрын
I've always thought that Radagast was that miar who went astray and had some children with human women resulting in people like Beorn, as they are basically guardians of nature too.
@maxwell872
3 жыл бұрын
I had a crazy idea that Elured and Elurine the lost children of Dior could have gone down the jungle book route of being raised by bears and being part maia and of the house of beor could in fact somehow be the ancestors of the Beornings.
@aleskulhanek2533
3 жыл бұрын
Good point! I read somewhere that Beornings are descendants of Beren, who kept the ability of shapeshifting after he was shifted to a werewolf by Luthien and that this ability passed to his descendants.
@maxwell872
3 жыл бұрын
@@aleskulhanek2533 Also Elwing their sister was capable of shape shifting.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Well that was due to the intervention of Ulmo, not her own will.
@maxwell872
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast That is true I heard them talk about it on the Tolkien Professor podcast.
@Kilthan2050
3 жыл бұрын
The Bible says “everything works together for good”. And Tolkien plays with a similar idea regarding Bilbo, Frodo, and the Ring. Maybe a Maiar was drawn to a human so that, one day, Beorn would be their to aid the dwarves and help in restoring the King Under the Mountain.
@Secunda-xt2yx
3 жыл бұрын
I love that Beorn is shrouded in mystery. The wonder is exciting. He's like Tom Bombadil, in a way.
@pianogang2273
3 жыл бұрын
I love things shrouded in mystery too! : )
@charlesdexterward7781
3 жыл бұрын
The answer to this riddle is the talking fox who sees Frodo & company going to sleep on the first night of their journey.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Of course! How could we forget the talking fox!
@raysiegrist
3 жыл бұрын
Well, in the Silmarillion there are multiple mentions of werewolves. If we assume the classic interpretation of the term, then there are other shapeshifters among men besides Beorn and the Beornlings. I do not recall any explanation for the werewolves either. If we accept that there were Maia who knew how, and did, change their forms (I believe the balrogs were Maia that followed Morgoth who changed their form, if I remember correctly) then it should be possible that this art/magic/sorcerory was used or passed down to humans. Wolves seem to have an "evil" aspect in Tolkien lore (probably from a N. European bias from folklore) so perhaps bears (oddly from the same bias) might have received a "good" or at least "neutral" nature. Unfortunately, as mentioned in the video,Tolkien never really defined his magic system and it is likely even he did not have a definitive explanation. This is how I prefer to think it works in this instance.
@Crafty_Spirit
3 жыл бұрын
Hi :-) As I understood it, werewolves in Arda are furious spirits encaged in wolf bodies, they are bound to this form til physical death.
@daniloonuk
3 жыл бұрын
With shapeshifters, rather go into the enchantment line. Do not know a lot about mythology in what Tolkien learned from, but do know some fictional characters that are shapeshifters, done after these works.
@literalvampirepotbellygobl5629
3 жыл бұрын
This is my own personal theory and not particularly related to anything but one small passage in the books, so it's likely bunk. When Gandalf mentions Radagast, Beorn says that he is not bad, as far as wizards go. How would Beorn know "how wizards go" unless he had knowledge of them? I like to think that Beorn was either a normal Northman who was instructed heavily by the Blue Wizards, or he was a remote descendant of one of the Blues and a Northwoman. In the first case he would have learned sorcery from them to turn himself into a skin changer and grant extremely long life. Naturally, he would have had a falling out with them as they continued east, and may have viewed them in a negative light. In the second case he would have inherited his abilities, though he still would have had some small amount of control over his powers as we see in the book. Since they abandoned their descendants and disappeared into the east, he would not have viewed them favorably, especially if learning to master your bear-ness is as hard as I imagine it would be. We don't know hardly anything about the Blues, and I'm sure there are tons of gaps in this that don't make sense, so again this could all be rubbish. But I like it.
@Crafty_Spirit
3 жыл бұрын
Hi : ) I had similar thoughts but that Rhadagast could be his ancestor (and kept that a secret)
@jimpemberton
3 жыл бұрын
I don't think he's a man per se, though he takes on the form of a man, but rather an extraordinary sentient being like Huan or the eagles. I suggest the Beorn was a kind of bear who had been given special powers by the Valar, including sentience and the ability to take on the form of a man.
@mustlovedragons8047
Жыл бұрын
HIS NAME IS *GOOD BOY!* CHANGE MY MIND!
@Chris-bv4ko
Ай бұрын
I've also heard the theory that Beorn did use some form of magic that shape shift, and it was taught to him by Radagast. Personally, I think it was more just a power native to Beorn. A maiar connection is certainly also possible.
@anankedos
2 жыл бұрын
Just found your podcast! Awesome!
@miykaelyisrael4423
3 жыл бұрын
what about accidental magic for beorn? his hatred accidentally changes him to a bear until his mood subsides and he returns to himself.
@jacobburr3570
3 жыл бұрын
Like launch from Dragonball! When she sneezed a switch was flipped. She would go from 0 to 100, or 100 to 0, which ever. Or Jekyll and Hyde type thing.
@wheatgrowssweet
3 жыл бұрын
I think the comparison to Werewolves is the most useful. We aren't given an explanation for werewolves either other than that they were servants of Morgoth and that Sauron was Chief among them. Knowing Sauron's proclivity for magic and deception, it would seem likely that this is the explanation. It is both sorcery as well as a natural ability which he inherited and can control, just as Sauron can choose to become a werewolf. I'm certain that Tolkien was referencing the Norse legends of Berserkers, and that in itself is about as much explanation as we should expect from him. Things don't need a reason to exist in Middle Earth, they just do.
@licmir3663
Жыл бұрын
That makes me wonder if Thingol was brought back from the dead and was reunited with Melian. I always felt that the manner in which Tolkien wrote her departure made her look selfish to her subjects. “We’ll, my husband is dead! I’m out of here and good luck with Morgoth!”
@benbrown8258
3 жыл бұрын
Gosh I wish I had more time. I think of the examples in Tolkien's writings where elves Changed the appearance of men. For that matter Thingol being in relationship with Melian had his physical form changed. I believe Tuor was changed by being in the presence of Ulmo. ...and his Great great grandchildren were different than other humans like Aragorn. If elves have a junior shape shifting ability, how much more maiar, how much more valar? Beorn's ancestors could have had an encounter with a maiar or even valar without having sex and still been changed to have shape-shifting Ability. We call it epigenetics in the real world. What you're exposed to can turn on genes that are merely untriggered potential otherwise. That can be for cancer it can be for IQ potential. In tolkien's world it could just as easily have been a more magical thing. Being soft magic not hard Magic.
@Crafty_Spirit
3 жыл бұрын
Cool comment :-) It's also mentioned how proximity to Valinor leads to stronger, larger, and more long-lived bodies. Your comment about Melian now let's me fantasise that Galadriel played a part in this...
@joejoelesh1197
3 жыл бұрын
Would Tom Bombadil know what happened to the Ent Wives? Could Pippin or Merry gone to ask him then back to Fangorn to tell the tale?
@maximilianvananderwald4968
3 жыл бұрын
My guess would be that unless the Entwives passed through Tom’s Forest, he probably wouldn’t take any notice. Tom’s whole aspect seems to be ambivalence. But like I said, it’s just a guess. 🤷♂️😎
@lotsofspots
3 жыл бұрын
Tolkien didn't know, so it's unlikely Tom would!
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
I think our best information is that the Ent wives went East into what are now the Brown Lands, so probably they wouldn’t have crossed Tom’s path.
@mattdavidson9225
Жыл бұрын
The idea that someone dominated a Balrog and bent it over made something is hilarious they were prolly disappointed with beorn lol
@George_Bland
3 жыл бұрын
Wow this is the most in depth speculation I have seen on Beorn!
@pianogang2273
3 жыл бұрын
Used to feel to the contrary, but now I love leaving things a mystery, as Beorn is.
@zakwolschon8837
3 жыл бұрын
It seems you've left out the idea of unconscious magic. Beorn may well be some kind of a sorcerer or enchanter and not know it. I think Jolly 'ol Tom is a fair example of this. Think of his commanding the huorn to let the hobbits go or playing with the ring, it's not as if he's consciously casting spells, yet he undoubtedly has a more than natural interaction with the world around him. (Or would it be a extra-natural?!) Beorn could be unconsciously communicating with animals, and transforming due to his innate magic. I think that's why he appears so huge at the battle of five armies as well. If his magic is unconscious then strong emotion fueling it's effectiveness would make sense. What happens when an orc hating sorcerer transforms into an orc killing bear? Hes gon' be a big-ass bear. Just my two cents, but that's how I've always interpreted it.
@gandalfolorin-kl3pj
3 жыл бұрын
Tolkien Nerd, I agree with some of your commenters that Beorn is not necessarily the result of a Maia-human cross. More likely, he is inherently a skin-changer, unique and unequalled, like the berserkers in Norse mythology. So like the ents and some other creatures, he is what he is with no "blood relation" to any other species. You should also know that Tolkien, as a Catholic, would not have interpreted in a literal manner Genesis' supposed unions of angels with humans. This is not the interpretation of the Apostolic Fathers, so Tolkien would not have used it as a model for his creatures.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
We do have one explicit instance of Maia marrying an elf (Melian and Thingol), though, so the idea clearly wasn’t alien to him.
@wheatgrowssweet
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast for that he may have been inspired by The House of the Wolfings rather than the Bible.
@samvogel3146
Жыл бұрын
I think Beorn may have been raised by bears, paralleling dozens of myths and folktales of humans being raised by animals ( though more often wolves). Beorn would have come to believe himself a bear at times. As what little we do understand of Tolkien magic seems to be that a strong will believing or declaring something to be true can make it so, this made him a bear when he believes himself to be.
@TheMarcHicks
3 жыл бұрын
Maybe he got taught how to do it by Radagast?
@dragonhelmofdor-lomin4017
3 жыл бұрын
Beorn is comfirmed to be a human, Tolkien wrote in Letter 144 ''Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.'' when Tolkien use the word man or men with a Capital M, he is referring to the human race.
@Pengalen
3 жыл бұрын
Maiar get involved all the time. Any time you hear something about evil spirits, those are typically some kind maiar. Specifically both werewolves and vampires in Tolkien are maiar that have possessed something.
@erathor9120
3 жыл бұрын
I mean it could fit into the more mysterious parts of middle earth for sure. Like Bombadil, only that he made Bombadil as this mysterious thing on purpose, where as Beorn was before LOTR.
@kintire
3 жыл бұрын
I think you are limiting yourself too much by assuming every supernatural person in Tolkien is a Maiar. Tom Bombadil reports that he has been around since before the Dark Lord arrived from Outside: and melkor arrived at the same time as the Valar and Maiar. There's no mention of Goldberry being from Valinor, or the River Woman, and since Melian, who was a Maia, seems to be unusual in living in Middle Earth it seems odd so many others would be about. Tolkien does speak of such native spirits, though in quite early writings. It is worth remembering that the picture of a supernaturally inhabited world, and the idea of some people being "magical" enough that it isn't clear where they sit on the spirit-human scale, is a feature of northern European shamanism such as is seen in the Finnish epic Kalevala, of which Tolkien was a great admirer. In fact, he wrote that "The germ of my attempt to write legends of my own to fit my private languages was the tragic tale of the hapless Kullervo in the Finnish Kalevala. It remains a major matter in the legends of the First Age (which I hope to publish as The Silmarillion)" in his letters. I think there is much more going on on the spiritual side than just Valar and Maiar, and Beorn, Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are examples of that.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Melkor didn’t enter Arda till after the other Valar, so it’s actually perfectly consistent with Bombadil’s statement that he be a Maia of some sort.
@gustavosandri6341
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, who would have thought staiyng up till late would make me the first comment :D
@tom_curtis
3 жыл бұрын
Having just watched Hello future me's take on this topic three days ago, I had a sense of déjà vu when this video appeared in my feed. For what it is worth, his approach is to note that all instances of apparent shape shifting in Tolkien's world other than Beorn are by Valar, Maia, or descendants of Maia (ie, Luthien). He then proceeds, by convoluted means, to argue that Beorn was the descendant of a long line of humans endowed with the power of shape shifting by Yavanna to act as guardians of animals. He adduces as additional evidence the ability of Beorn to control and communicate with animals. For what it is worth, I disagree this theory because: (1) Beorn shows no proclivity to protect animals other than his own, domesticated companions. (2) The ability to communicate with animals is not that unusual. In Middle Earth, many animals have their own languages, including bears. We know the latter for Gandalf tells Bilbo and the Dwarves that he heard Beorn talking in the language of bears. Gandalf then provided a translation of what Beorn said, indicating Gandalf could talk in the language of bears as well. There is nothing in The Hobbit to indicate Beorn's ability to control animals amounts to anything more than the ability to speak to them in their own language (or even, anything more than an extraordinary ability in domesticating and training). (3) So momentous an act, equivalent to the creation of the Ents, would have warranted some further mention in the Silmarillion. kzitem.info/news/bejne/kq6Q2Yl-iap0aKQ
@trailmixgang
Жыл бұрын
Could be something like a werewolf. A WEREBEAR!!!
@thedungeondelver
3 жыл бұрын
Beorn may well have just been a man who was close enough to nature that he could adapt himself to it. He or his kind (aren't the Sons of Beorn mentioned in The Lord of the Rings?) might have been akin to Tom Bombadil.
@tom_curtis
3 жыл бұрын
Not akin to Tom Bombadil, who is certainly a maia (IMO). He is certainly not a man, for no mortal could be unaffected by the Ring. And yes, Tolkien does mention that "... for many generations, men of his [Beorn's] line had the power of taking bear's shape ... if less in size and strength" (at the end of Chapter 18 of The Hobbit).
@celtofcanaanesurix2245
3 жыл бұрын
perhaps the key is lies in the same vain as elf-magic, as a previous commenter said, perhaps he's in-tune with nature, but not in a Bombadil way like he suggest, but more plausibly in an elven way, maybe his ancestors learned such tricks from some of the non-Noldor/Vanyar/Teleri elves, though I think your explanation makes more sense
@canonwright8397
3 жыл бұрын
I would like to think the Beorn and his people are a result of a mishap with one of the lesser rings. Like the Nazgul but in a good way. I have no evidence for this, It's just my imagination running away with me. But wouldn't it be Kool if, as a result of misuse of one of the lesser rings, we get a character who redeems him/herself, and Eru Iluvatar allows Beorn's people to come into being. Kinda like he did with the Dwarves. I hope Amazon doesn't read this, because if they decide to run with it they'd probably mess it up. Have a nice day.
@Deailon
3 жыл бұрын
And what do You think on The One Ring TRPG approach to the same question (gift of the Vala for special achievement).
@earlofdoncaster5018
3 жыл бұрын
Maybe Beorn is one of talking animals in The Hobbit that learned how to become a man.
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
I think the term for the demonic orcs was boldog.
@lotsofspots
3 жыл бұрын
How do Beorn's animal servants (walking on hindlegs, able to light torches and lay a table etc.) fit into things?
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
They seem to be simply well-trained IMO, but there could be some magic at play I guess.
@thedungeondelver
3 жыл бұрын
Maybe you can answer a question for me, or maybe this might be good fodder for another episode...When Gandalf catches Sam eavesdropping, and Sam is panicking, he cries out at least a couple of times "Lor bless me!". He's not saying _lord_ - it's not shortened with a contraction apostrophe, and when the word appears in the middle of a sentence, it's capitalized. So given that he's probably not calling out to THE Lord, whatever "lord" that might be (landlord, feudal lord, the Lord God), who or what is "Lor" ?
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
It would mean God or whatever watered down conception of Him the Hobbits have gleaned from more knowledgeable sources.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Corey Olson had a theory on this which I’ve now forgotten, and frankly I don’t have a good one off hand.
@wheatgrowssweet
3 жыл бұрын
Hobbits don't actually speak English, so all the dialogue from them is actually talking translating their words into a English equivalent that we would recognize. He gave some of them particular accents to invoke the type of people they were (i.e. simple farm folk). So the original expression may have referenced some higher power, but the way it was translated was for our understanding of the mood and intense rather than the literal sense. The only beings we see Hobbits treat with reverence akin to worship are the elves.
@kevinmalone584
3 жыл бұрын
Thoughts on LOTRonPrime
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
I’m trying to keep an open mind and avoid much of the news to be honest.
@johnparish6566
3 жыл бұрын
Wow, elves and men are the same species. What?
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
I have a question. I read many years ago from a Tolkien book a text I considered very obscure, to this day I cant refind it and if any one can point me to it I would appreciate it. It went like this : There was in the time before the sun or moon a wizard ( this wizard is not an Istari, not even a maia but rather composed of left over material from the creation of the world). Elves have awoken and some take this wizard as a lord. Upon a time an elf finds still sleeping humanity in a cave and shows this to the wizard who instructs the elf not to wake them as he fears the wrath of Illuvatar. Thats how I remember it and I cant refind it, pretty sure its not considered canon but one of thos wierd tidbits one finds in the book of lost tales and such.
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
That doesn’t ring a bell, but I’m working my way through the history of middle-earth series so if I run across something like that I’ll try to remember to come back here.
@wheatgrowssweet
3 жыл бұрын
You have a lot of details there from the Silmarillion, but the bit about the wizard is not in there so you may have misunderstood or misremembered it.
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
@@wheatgrowssweet it definately wasnt in the silmarillion.
@kintire
3 жыл бұрын
@@jonathonfrazier6622 I believe you are looking for Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind in the Book of Lost Tales
@jonathonfrazier6622
3 жыл бұрын
@@kintire thanks ill look into it.
@stillhuntre55
3 жыл бұрын
What is rumble?
@TolkienLorePodcast
3 жыл бұрын
Just another video hosting platform.
@stillhuntre55
3 жыл бұрын
@@TolkienLorePodcast Ah! Gotcha
@raysiegrist
3 жыл бұрын
How come there is always a dislike? Is there someone who trolls your page, friend?
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