Congratulations, Robert, on your well-deserved nomination for a Tolkien Society award!
@albam.2607
5 ай бұрын
Congratulations Robert! I am joining the Tolkein Society to vote for you! Well deserved!!
@TheTuttle99
5 ай бұрын
These are definitely the same person right
@Fyre19
5 ай бұрын
thats a thing?
@williammcdonald3147
5 ай бұрын
I’ve never heard of this award but my guy deserves it
@ryanrobinson5638
5 ай бұрын
Never heard of it, but acknowledgment is always nice, right? Good on him
@edhaworth8151
5 ай бұрын
I like to imagine them being healed in the halls of mandos. They had no say in what was done to them and very little in what they did.
@benc.5558
5 ай бұрын
I think this is the best answer. The Halls of Mandos aren't a place where they go to be punished for their wicked acts or lack of "purity." They're a place of healing, and if the orcs tend to stay there for a very long time, well, who is more in need of rest and healing?
@katherinegraham3803
5 ай бұрын
This is my favorite theory as well. The idea of mercy (or pity), even towards the undeserving like Gollum or Saruman, is so important to the story. It's hard to imagine that Eru's plan would not leave room for mercy for the orcs, especially if they were created from his own Children. Tolkien also saw the defeat of Sauron as a eucatastrophe - the sudden, unexpected turn of events that avoids utter destruction and delivers the characters to some kind of salvation or happy ending. If the orcs are indeed corrupted Elves and/or Men, climax of the story is not just a eucatastrophe for our heroes but for them as well. Their armies are defeated, their Master destroyed, their minds broken, and their bodies destined for an inescapable death. But, in the midst of all this misery, they are freed from the bodies that bear Melkor's corruption. They are freed from the will of the Dark Lord. Their spirits are allowed to journey West, where they will find rest and peace for the first time. Someday, if they are Elves, they may even rejoin the world in Aman, where they can live in beauty and bliss and be at peace among friends and kin. It's a salvation that feels very improbable. Certainly it feels "undeserved" given what Tolkien describes of orcs. But I think that's part of what makes it fit so perfectly into the larger story Tolkien is telling.
@phildunn3195
5 ай бұрын
This is one of Robert's best. I like the idea that spiritual consistency could be found in Eä. You could view orcs as corrupted into insanity, and ultimately innocent. Or, similar to Melkor, Sauron and Saruman, who were unrepentant, living at odds with Eru, choosing to reject Eru and with Eru's justice and mercy, you could see them as damned. This is the idea that self-exclusion from God/heaven is hell. It is Christian, particularly Catholic. So I like that explanation. Those there by choice will never understand and are self-excluded. Those there through force and corruption will be healed. As a mythology, keeping this a mystery is a good thing. I'm ok with we don't know.
@phildunn3195
5 ай бұрын
Gollum is a great example. Was he corrupted and insane, or unrepentant and irredeemable. I think he was a tortured soul worthy of mercy. Could he be healed?
@MusMasi
5 ай бұрын
@@phildunn3195 maybe, though it didn't take much for him to turn on his cousin and friend in the worst way, but was that just how sheerly powerful the ring was? Also him stealing through windows then to cradles......................Gollum because of his size is not portrayed as to how horrible his acts were. And the Goblins he ate as well, lets not forget they are sentient beings as well.
@darriansea
5 ай бұрын
"Tolkien thought about this a lot" could be an opener for every video
@coreyander286
4 ай бұрын
"Do hobbits know what a train locomotive sounds like...? Tolkien thought about this a lot."
@SirTweaksalot92
3 ай бұрын
When you smoke a pipe, without the internet to distract you, you do a lot of thinking.
@KorriTimigan
5 ай бұрын
I've often wondered why Tolkien never stated, even in his letters, that Men ended up joining God in heaven, as with his faith we would naturally conclude. But now hearing that letter, that he would never be so presumptuous as to guess God's plan, even within his own legendarium, is astounding to me. I'm utterly satisfied with not knowing now, because it's not just a mystery of "the writer never got around to telling us" but "the writer put so much thought into it that he couldn't possibly be arrogant enough to answer it".
@KnugLidi
5 ай бұрын
Tolkein reserved the fate of Men to them alone, which is exactly the tenet of his faith. Elves do not go anywhere, except to Mandos to be recycled into the world.
@Keffinated
4 ай бұрын
The souls of Men of Middle-earth suffered the same fate as the souls of Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, and all who came before them. They had to wait for the coming of Jesus Christ to be redeemed before they could “join” with God (Eru) in Heaven.
@KnugLidi
4 ай бұрын
@@Keffinated Thanks, but we're talking about a well crafted, internally consistent, enjoyable work of fiction that has enriched he lives of hundred of millions and hurt no one, vs a poorly written, utterly nonsensical collection of male control wish-fulfillment short stories written that has enriched a few million high ranking clergy, and directly lead to ongoing abuse, enslavement, debasement, belittlement, and disenfranchisement of billions across the globe.
@lilyfhonazhel2675
4 ай бұрын
Oh yes, religious bullshits.
@sickcallranger2590
4 ай бұрын
@@lilyfhonazhel2675 Like it or not, faith and religion shaped Tolkien’s work. I’m not religious myself, but it’s fascinating to read and look into someone else’s view of the world and what’s beyond it.
@host_theghost507
5 ай бұрын
The question I've always pondered isn't where Tolkien thinks that orcs go after they die, but where do *orcs* think they go after they die. Any clues there? The snatches of orc dialogue we get in LOTR indicates that orcs are obedient to Sauron and live in fear of him, but they aren't particularly happy about it. Do they look at Morgoth as a god who created them and has prepared an afterlife for them? Any clues from the canon?
@Chuck-kc3pg
5 ай бұрын
Really good question. Love to hear the answer.
@haga2519
5 ай бұрын
Very interesting question. I hope Robert reads this so we can get another reflexion of it.
@h2eh1s-
5 ай бұрын
They're bred through magic, right? At the tower down in what looked like an incubator. So how would they have a soul?
@stephengrant4841
5 ай бұрын
@@h2eh1s- That isn't true for the books, you're probably thinking of the scene from the movie adaptation of the Two Towers where the Uruks are born from mud or...something.
@inthefade
5 ай бұрын
Yeah, this channel and the discussion here is really not about the movies and the liberties that they took. We all appreciate or even love the movies, but they don't always represent Tolkien's intention.
@JonesWazza
5 ай бұрын
One of the best things about LOTR is that Tolkien is trying to figure bits of it out too. He doesn’t know how it all fits together exactly. That’s what makes it feel so deep and real. It’s like how Gandalf has a VIBE of what’s important and what to do next, but he’s feeling his way forward, not making and executing predetermined plans…
@bobdole8830
27 күн бұрын
That's because it is literally impossible to do it otherwise. His narrative Universe is so vast and complicated, you couldn't make it up on the spot. It took him decades to navigate through it themselves. There's plenty of people that can come up with2,3 or even 4 somewhat decent books a year, but a real masterpiece can take years if not decades to form, because the author isnt just slamming onto paper what goes through his mind, but trying to experience the worlds he is making and putting thought into every word they create.
@NV..V
5 ай бұрын
I think they wind up in New Jersey...near the Meadowlands.
@marieroberts5664
5 ай бұрын
Nah, the Pine Barrens, next door neighbors of the Jersey Devil.
@oblivionsa7973
5 ай бұрын
Condemned to work at American Dream for all time.
@kenduncan3221
4 ай бұрын
Or some call center in India.
@ArawnOfAnnwn
4 ай бұрын
@@kenduncan3221 Working as an "AI" for Amazon. ;)
@justinstewart4889
3 ай бұрын
Why?
@darkaxel1991
5 ай бұрын
I tend towards the view that orcs are corrupted elves and when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos to be healed in spirit and redeemed.
@mattgilbert7347
5 ай бұрын
That seems to be the most compassionate solution.
@Chociewitka
5 ай бұрын
I think orcs would refuse the call to Mandos and fade and become wayward spirits like faded Avari who refused Mandos' call. I do not think any dying orc would be in a state to accept Mandos' call, - as they are basically corrupted Avari and we know that many even uncorrupted Avari refuse to go to Mandos. And I do think orcs cannot be men originally, or 1 they would most likely not be sun-averse 2. if the unlikely circumstance that they were sun-averse in spite of their human origin then merely crossing them with (then) other humans would not have removed it - and it did.
@mmseng2
5 ай бұрын
It would certainly highlight the ultimate futility of Morgoth's attempts to subvert Eru. Yes, yes Morgy, you've drug your toys through the mud, now let's get them cleaned up and put you to bed.
@DraconimLt
5 ай бұрын
well, originally corrupted elves, long since bred into something else, not just the looks but the lifespans.
@alihorda
4 ай бұрын
And what about the orcs which were created from the tree goo thing ? Or that's a movie only thing?
@CyBirr
5 ай бұрын
I think the most important part of this video is pointing out the humility of Tolkien. It's an object lesson about fantasy, don't put so much into it so you lose the sense of fantasy. Good video!
@613-shadow9
5 ай бұрын
i always thought the point of fantasy was to make and explain your world more so than ours. a chance to explain everything. it feels so good to do so. why leave mysteries if you don't have to?
@nikosantos1172
4 ай бұрын
nah your just talking about a hard magic system vs a soft magic system
@nikosantos1172
4 ай бұрын
@@613-shadow9 yall don't know the difference between hard and soft magic systems
@ArawnOfAnnwn
4 ай бұрын
@@613-shadow9 'why leave mysteries if you don't have to?' - perhaps because you want to? Think of the people who say magic tricks lose their awe if they're explained. I don't necessarily agree with that view, but some like it that way.
@rdmrdm2659
2 ай бұрын
@@ArawnOfAnnwnif you answer all of the questions yourself to some degree you elicit less thought from the readers.
@12classics39
5 ай бұрын
Since Tolkien determined Orcs do have souls and only Eru can make a soul, we can narrow it down to options 2 and 4: either they were corrupted Elves or corrupted Men. Maybe they were a bit of both. So I think some of them were locked up by Mandos, and some of them left the confines of the world like all Men do.
@hokogan
5 ай бұрын
Orcs predate the coming of Men though, right? I can’t remember if Melkor had Orcs in Utumno or not.
@12classics39
5 ай бұрын
@@hokogan yes but through the years and ages Morgoth and then Sauron might’ve caught and corrupted more men into becoming Orcs.
@bluesbest1
5 ай бұрын
I already knew Tolkien was a man to be respected, admired, and emulated (especially as a writer), but I never realized how much so until you got to that last portion. He could absolutely have speculated and theorized and no one would have questioned him, but instead chose to remember that he's still just a man, no matter how vast and immersive (almost real) the world he created was.
@RoamingAdhocrat
Ай бұрын
and didn't sit around writing addenda of the "maiar didn't use bathrooms, they..." variety
@bluesbest1
Ай бұрын
@@RoamingAdhocrat Ugh, we don't talk about _her._
@TorgerVedeler
5 ай бұрын
Personally, I feel like the orcs were like the Imperial Stormtroopers from Star Wars: They could be slaughtered without incurring any guilt. So it’s nice to see that Tolkien actually gave this some thought, even if he never really found an answer. As it happens, I just read the scene where Sam and Frodo see a war elephant. And right before this Sam sees a man (one of the enemy) killed by other men (the guys on his side). Tolkien does a nice job with Sam’s reaction, showing that he recognizes the dead man’s humanity. But none of our heroes ever seems to feel that way about orcs.
@MusMasi
5 ай бұрын
Orcs funny enough had better aim than Imperial Storm Troopers they actually managed to get some kills via ranged weapons, something almost impossible for Imperial Storm Troopers.
@plebisMaximus
5 ай бұрын
I think that scene also sets a few rules for how one is supposed to think about an enemy in the context of this world. Your example of Stormtroopers is a great example of an enemy you can kill in great numbers without thought or remorse, they're essentially just there to facilitate action. There could've been possibly millions living on either death star when they blew up and nobody ever thinks of the great cost, the good guys won and therefore it's a good ending. LotR, especially the Frodo plot, had a much lower kill count and in this particular case the story even took a pause to think about a guy just recently killed and that makes death a more notable event. Another point is at the end of Two Towers, when you hear a couple orcs talking about their dreams and desires for independence from Sauron and their own raiding band, making them characters. Tolkien does this a few times, making the enemy look like people with a real life. I think that's part of why we're interested in what happens to them after death and, at least in my case, hope there's some sort of redemption waiting for them.
@KuK137
5 ай бұрын
@@MusMasi Stormtroopers actually had great aim. Obi Wan even comments on this ("only stormtroopers are so precise"). When they miss on Death Star they are under strict orders to let the rebels go so they can be tracked to hidden base. On Hoth, they massacre veteran rebel troops with little casualties. Only later the imbecile hack filoni took the dumb meme and made it reality by dumbing down what once was elite special forces level troops into hopeless mooks easily beaten by a bunch of teens...
@TorgerVedeler
5 ай бұрын
@@plebisMaximusWell put. Thank you. As I reread Lord of the Rings, I keep thinking about Tolkien’s experiences in World War I, which definitely informed his work. The enemy he faced then were human beings, men who suffered just as he and his comrades did, but who were also anonymous. I think the next thing to look at is All Quiet on the Western Front. We need to learn from these stories.
@YodasTinyLightsaber
5 ай бұрын
This was a great scene in the books. I remember looking up why British English used the spelling Oliphant and what a "Gaffer" is. Good memories.
@oscarstainton
5 ай бұрын
Not that I think it pertains to where Orcs really go after death, but I can imagine Orc Valhalla is one big Cirith Ungol brawl, filled with fatal executions and respawnings.
@spencerharrisondescales519
5 ай бұрын
Awesome conceptualisation. Love it👌 ❤🎉
@Beef_Unit_Supreme
5 ай бұрын
WRONG!! They go to Ork-lahoma.....
@k1ll3trs86
5 ай бұрын
orcs are evil, black, cowardly and hideous monsters. they probably respawned as indians irl.
@MusMasi
5 ай бұрын
They become the Nemesis to the Ranger!!
@DachiffDisco
5 ай бұрын
Tha big Waagh in 'eaven
@mandowarrior123
5 ай бұрын
On the barbeque. Next question!
@jbc242424
5 ай бұрын
gross
@goldilocks913
5 ай бұрын
@@jbc242424not if you have bbq sauce
@ezrafriesner8370
5 ай бұрын
@@jbc242424anything is good with enough seasoning
@IndigoIndustrial
5 ай бұрын
And the menu has newly scrawled "Meat".
@ThommyofThenn
5 ай бұрын
This is sick
@axdntprn
5 ай бұрын
My dad read lotr and the hobbit every year till his death. He was 2/3 the way through the hobbit when he died. I have the book, with the bookmark still in. My dad swears he heard this from tolkien, on radio or TV or something, but anyways, the idea is that orcs in death become who the should have been before the fate of corruption, and exist in the halls of mandos discovering who they are, as they wait for the next song
@woody5476
5 ай бұрын
One interesting thing that may be relevant is what happened to the orcs when Sauron was defeated. They were no longer bound to his will, and they started acting chaotically instead of having a common purpose.
@ThommyofThenn
5 ай бұрын
You won't see them again til 2nd Lithe Edit @10:30 I already greatly respected Tolkien intellectually but I admire his attitude on addressing certain questions of the soul. His humility both shows the respect he has for what he considers to be sacred, but also works on the narrative level. Tolkien is not the god of his world. He is the storyteller, he is the loremaster and the sage who is judicious with his wisdom. But he still leaves some things in the hands of the divine.
@andrewkiluk
5 ай бұрын
Bad folks, indeed.
@ThommyofThenn
5 ай бұрын
@@andrewkiluk I knew a hobbit, came from the shire. Taking a ring to a mount of fire. He sailed West just a little too soon
@Lykyk
5 ай бұрын
Considering that Tolkien was a devout Catholic who believed in redemption for all, an afterlife that gives them a chance to escape their nature seems likely.
@eagle_and_the_dragon
5 ай бұрын
Safe to say the stone idea remained, but changed from Orcs to Trolls. Trolls were another mockery of holy creation, this time being the Ents. Perhaps their lack of intelligence and agency (in the wild, they only survive; they don't build), denotes the absence of soul, which Morgoth lacked the power to produce.
@forsakenquery
5 ай бұрын
They can't even build shelters, just use caves or ruins
@superslayerguy
5 ай бұрын
Honestly love Tolkien’s answer on this. From his point of view, the history of middle earth was something he stumbled upon, he did not create the world in his eyes, thus he was not in a place to speculate and judge the fate of the orcs, that was a job for god almighty in his eyes.
@sneakydragon2352
4 ай бұрын
honestly it feels more like an agnosticism: "God is too complicated for us to understand It or It's plans". Practically it's an easy way to not explain or determine something extremely nuanced and "controversial", which i don't blame him for it.
@errantwinds-up8uu
5 ай бұрын
Thank you for covering this topic as it should be covered. So many people get stuck in the "orcs are evil, why aren't they more nuanced?" without really digging into the lore.I think Tolkien's humility to give us ideas but not to make hard decisions is very ob point for his ideas.
@robertpearson8798
18 күн бұрын
New Orc City.
@Raz.C
5 ай бұрын
Thank you, mate for mentioning what so many people seem to forget, or ignore; Humans do indeed go to the Halls of Mandos, to halls apart, where they stay for a while, before venturing "onwards."
@sneakydragon2352
4 ай бұрын
This. This is actually a very important point because it was used as an argument to turn men and elves against eachother. Melkor told men that elves are immortal and they will come back after death, while men go nowhere (obviously lying) and elves were told that Men move on to greener pastures after their death, while elves are stuck in this world. forever.
@Ln6Ec
5 ай бұрын
The most interesting thing to me about Tolkien and his legendarium is how he talks about it like he is only a steward of the knowledge; a keeper of the law, not the author and inventor of the entire history and theology of Middle Earth. Truly a unique and masterful storyteller.
@toonbat
5 ай бұрын
The idea of orcs being born from animals that grew intelligent makes me wonder. What happens to intelligent animals in Tolkien's world when they die? The Great Eagles are the best known example, but other birds in The Hobbit like thrushes and ravens are shown to not only have high measures of intelligence, but also some agency to do good or evil. Do they have no souls? Or maybe souls that are mortal and die along with their bodies?
@kobold7466
5 ай бұрын
I Imagine since they are literally from nature they simply return back and souls are broken up into smaller "simpler" souls
@sm0k1nggnu_
5 ай бұрын
The eagles are an exception because - though Tolkien changed his mind a few times - are not animals that just grew intelligent but rather Maiar sent to Middleearth. Animals are soulless, no matter their intelligence. A mortal soul wouldn't make much sense in my opinion.
@TheDoctorofOdoIsland
5 ай бұрын
To me this is one of the contradictions between what Tolkien believed as a Roman Catholic and what he believed as a storyteller. Scholastic theology had always maintained that only beings endowed with reason have soul, and that animals, being without reason, are soulless. Tolkien's concept of the distinction between fëa and hröa was designed to accommodate this belief. But Tolkien wrote his mythology against the background of the folklore and fairy tales of his native England, where the talking thrush and the ravens and other clever animals have their roots, and these elements do not mesh with a more academic understanding of the question. In fairy tales, all things have souls. That's what fairy tales are about, animals and trees and swords and harps thinking and speaking and having souls. Writers like William Blake thought everything had a soul, even the tiniest flea, which he imagine as a fierce warrior in contrast to it's tiny body. There are weird exceptions (Hans Christian Andersen wrote the Little Mermaid based on the idea that mermaids don't have souls), but most of Tolkien's predecessors would have have taken it for granted that every living thing has a soul. These competing influences on Tolkien's imagination pulled his writings in opposing directions and created problems, like the exact origin of Orcs, that were never resolved to his satisfaction.
@istari0
5 ай бұрын
In his last writings on this topic, at least AFAIK), Tolkien wrote that the Great Eagles and other beings such as Huan the Hound did not have Fëa.
@danhubert-hx4ss
5 ай бұрын
@@sm0k1nggnu_ Tolkien was a Catholic, he must have known abt. Franciscus of Assisi, patron and friend of animals. Franciskus called animals our "little brethren". I deduce thus that animals have souls.
@garygrinvalds3887
5 ай бұрын
I generally like all of your videos, but this one is a particularly interesting question to consider. Very cool.
@theeffete3396
5 ай бұрын
Canonically, orcs are mentioned before the arrival of Man, so orcs originating as Men seems right out. For my own head-canon, I prefer a blending of the various origins (except, perhaps, the one where they were made from stone, which might work better for trolls). In my theory, orcs were initially a type of beast, one of the many evil things that roamed Middle Earth in the days before the Sun. Taken by Melkor and interbred with captured /tortured Elves to give the a shape in mockery of Elves. Much later, when elves became too isolated and sparse, captured Men may have served as breeding specimens, leading to the various types (subspecies) of orc that populate the world. And of course, orcs would naturally be able to breed with each other as well. As for where they go when they die, I also side with Tolkien's final thoughts that they aren't beyond redemption. An eternity in the Halls of Mandos, where they await the Dagor Dagorath, upon which they either repent and fight on the side of good, or are cast back into the world as Morgoth's slaves and ultimately suffer complete anihilation.
@Mr12Relic
5 ай бұрын
I read somewhere that Elves can't be tortured. Their souls nearly exceed their physical forms and if truly distressed they can will themselves to die, and the body evaporates. No Elf has ever been r*ped.
@iainballas
5 ай бұрын
They go to the hospital if they were dueling Viggo on set That dude apparently didn't hold back XD
@alexanderc.4654
5 ай бұрын
As a fellow Roman Catholic, and a student of British literature, I place Tolkien and Chesterton in a league completely of their own in terms of crafting literature and theology.
@DrTimes99
5 ай бұрын
I always assumed that Morgoth literally and personally "bred" the race of Orcs from captured Elves, infusing the offspring with his power and malice from conception. Or that the were bred using captured Elves and fallen Maiar that joined him. In this manner, Morgoth remains incapable of actually creating new life, that was supplied by the Elves, he has reason for capture, not simply killing Elves, and it is certainly the greatest sin he could commit. As Luthian was the daughter of an Elf and Maiar, we know procreation between the two is possible.
@DiscoDumpTruck
5 ай бұрын
Yes! I’ve been asking for this video for some time now! So happy to see you delve into it!
@bmolitor615
5 ай бұрын
Halls of Mandos for a freakin change of pace after their hella crappy earthly existence
@swiftmatic
5 ай бұрын
@ 5:44, Feanor ain't getting out anytime soon , either. 😂 @ 7:06, The hound was from Valinor, so it was no ordinary beast. If I recall correctly, it was a gift from Orome to one of the sons of Feanor
@dandiehm8414
5 ай бұрын
Correct on both accounts. Huan was given by Orome to Celegorm. I thought that about Feanor not getting out as well. Alas for the marring of Curufinwe - one of Morgoth's greatest evils.
@ravensoath
5 ай бұрын
“Wherever orcs go.”
@heaslyben
5 ай бұрын
Oh! I love the idea that not all orks (uruks, goblins, etc) have the same origin! That is an interesting in-universe concept and a sly way to incorporate multiple authorial explanations. That orkification might have been committed more than once -- chilling.
@sneakydragon2352
4 ай бұрын
as far as i recall, there's no distinction in the books between orcs, uruks and goblins, they're mostly a "film" thing. They're called 'Goblins' in the hobbit books, but it's interchangeable with orcs, The Hobbit was written before LoTR and it was a child's story.
@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63
28 күн бұрын
I believe the Orks actually go somewhere else to hang out with Gork and Mork.
@retro6294
5 ай бұрын
I remember hearing and reading that Mr. Tolkien intended for Frodo and Sam to meet a group of kind orcs. That would have been something.
@random22026
5 ай бұрын
1:46 to 1:55 2:08 to 2:29 6:44 to 6:54 Animals DO HAVE SOULS--in Tolkien, and beyond his Legendarium! Tolkien was amazing. Thank you again, Robert!
@XavionofThera
5 ай бұрын
They do in the Bible too. I'm not sure where the weird idea of "only humans have souls" came from.
@cmcapps1963
5 ай бұрын
@@XavionofTheraI know, it's annoying. I suspect Descartes had something to do with it.
@matthewm5581
25 күн бұрын
@@XavionofTheraAnimals have souls, yes, but not rational souls. Their souls are mortal and material, intrinsically tied to their physical bodies. When their body dies, so does their soul. Only men have eternal souls.
@XavionofThera
25 күн бұрын
@matthewm5581 That's pretty much made up. Nothing says that. And souls are by definition not physical things.
@random22026
25 күн бұрын
@@cmcapps1963 😆😆 I think, therefore I am...I think...
@Neero_90
4 ай бұрын
the EQ on tolkien is big, his understanding of psychology combined with his religious knowledge and creativity shows how well his fantasy universe is so well put together, the part at the end where hes trying to explain something he really never found an answer to himself and ending it with the whole "only god can choose ones faith" But when it comes to how the orcs were created the whole corruption of fallen elves is sooooo damn good
@Belligerent_Herald
5 ай бұрын
You know even as a kid I felt for the orcs, many interactions show them to be just grunts like any other soldier. It’s them or us obviously, but they got a pretty rough deal in life, never even considered it might continue to suck after life. Melkor is the worst
@Veylon
5 ай бұрын
Tolkien said of his own experience as a soldier, "We were all Orcs in the war."
@josephbuono4392
5 ай бұрын
WWI was a disaster in so many ways
@c.antoniojohnson7114
5 ай бұрын
@@VeylonMen do turn into Orcs in war, some of the things my father a Vietnam combat veteran,told me sounded like something an Orc would do.
@ismellmandude6401
5 ай бұрын
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Now I'm curious...
@mattgilbert7347
5 ай бұрын
I heard a former Marine say "the Corps has no use for a human being" There's more context, he was talking about how his humanity "grew back" after a while out of the Corps. Unfortunately, some remain, as he said, "brainwashed for life'. It's an ugly business.
@solomonreal1977
5 ай бұрын
They get reborn as Boromir again and again, forced to die over and over and over
@jedi098765
5 ай бұрын
N-NANI? GIORGIO?!
@bosozoku1000
14 күн бұрын
This is one of the dumbest ideas ever. Like so dumb you should go to hell for this.
@m1sterF0x
5 ай бұрын
Honestly one of your best and most thought-provoking essays- and you’ve done some great ones!
@bhanson4917
5 ай бұрын
Where do Orcs go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the Maiar fly. They go to the lake of fire and fry, don't see 'em again 'till the fourth of July.
@brandonnotsowise2640
5 ай бұрын
🔥
@chrislong3938
5 ай бұрын
I just stumbled on your videos on this and now, I suddenly want to go pull out my books and start re-reading them along with all the maps that I have!!! Thanks, geat video!!!
@PiscatorLager
18 күн бұрын
Wherever orcs go.
@DaBIONICLEFan
5 ай бұрын
Such a fascinating topic thanks for covering it 👍
@pr_disaster2238
Ай бұрын
I think this is one mark of a great work of art: that certain facets of it reach beyond the limitations of its own artist’s intellect and imagination, so that even he is left to speculate and enter into discussion with others concerning his own work.
@ingloriuspumpkinpie9367
5 ай бұрын
I remember I found your channel by googling a question in the same spirit as this one.
@OublietteTight
2 ай бұрын
I have been asking about these LoTR possibilities for a very long time. I find it refreshing and releasing to finally know that even Tolkien himself did not know. I am finally content to accept that such things are beyond defining. I am personally ready to just end... or maybe face another adventure. Either way, not knowing feels quite natural, even more so after hearing this logical ending. After a rich, full lifetime of curiosity, historical study, fictional pondering, and soul searching... I had already accepted that we are not meant to know... only to wonder. Thank you, Geek.
@gomezfriesen
5 ай бұрын
I love that he cared so deaply about every creature, ven the bad guys, that he wanted to know where they went when they died. He would have hated the idea of storm troopers.
@donavonhoward114
5 ай бұрын
The term "mockery" is misread by a lot of Tolkien fans. Orcs being created as a "mockery" of the elves does not mean that the orcs are elves at all. It simply means that Morgoth bred the orcs as his first creations, and they are an extremely cheapened being compared to the elves. The elves were creation of Eru, and the first of his children. The orcs are Morgoths equivalent of the elves. There are writings from Tolkien that suggests that the orcs could be corrupted elves, but he wasn't comfortable with that lore. The truth is, we will never know what orcs truly were meant to be in Tolkiens mind. I think it works just fine that they were made from stone and slime. They honestly do not have free will. Just because they can interact with the world, form groups, and cooperate without a true master to lead them does not mean they have free will. Without a master to lead them, they eventually die off because they aren't a natural part of the world, and they cannot change with the world. Orcs have a deep need to kill, fight, and commit the most evil acts in Tolkiens world. They were bred only for that purpose, and they most likely cannot choose another path due to their corruption. Choosing where you want to go, and who you want to kill, or not kill does not mean you have free will.
@Agynessdin
5 ай бұрын
In that sense, i would say you do have free will, it's just that you need a lot of evolution and growth, and with the way that orcs are treated as expendable by literally everyone, it's unlikely, there seems to be no point in it
@dandiehm8414
5 ай бұрын
Several of the orcs talked about setting up on their own away from the big bosses. That is Free Will. The Trolls were also "mockerys' of Ents, according to Treebeard.
@recon_freakon4688
5 ай бұрын
Where do bad orcs when they die?…. 🎶
@hexalm
2 ай бұрын
The answer depends on whether it's Meat Puppets or Nirvana
@Weatherman4Eva
5 ай бұрын
Well I'd say in the ground as fertilizer but I dont think thats the spirit of this video
@lillywho
5 ай бұрын
Gen z would call that "literally based"
@The.Nasty.
5 ай бұрын
I feel like orc fertilizer would taint the soil and cause fungus 😂 keep it out of my garden
@Alaedious
5 ай бұрын
😂😊😂
@ssl3546
5 ай бұрын
Incorrect. The book clearly states that plants did not grow where orcs were buried. "Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there; but whether those who had fled into the wood were with them, none could say, for no man ever set foot upon that hill. The Death Down it was afterwards called, and no grass would grow there."
@heterosapien8426
5 ай бұрын
The orcs wind up in orc heaven where they get to see their orc families again.
@josepmasdeufigueras4434
4 ай бұрын
The absolute fantasy freak madman took all the sensations, knowledge and hability to recreate and create a fantasy world, but when confronted to resolve the ultimate theological consecuences, he behaved both humbly and earthly just not to think to much about it, cos his own beliefs had questions he knew he didn't grasp. What a man.
@kayskreed
5 ай бұрын
The Internet comments section, obviously. ;)
@philkugler2429
5 ай бұрын
Lol. Nice. I would have guessed trolls, but I like this better.
@martavdz4972
5 ай бұрын
Thank you for the analysis! Very grateful that you mentioned Tolkien didn´t feel it was up to him to decide. Very wise of him, and I´m glad I don´t have to lose my high opinion of him ☺
@EmblemParade
5 ай бұрын
This is more than just about orcs. Tolkien lived during some of the worst ideologies of dehumanization that we have experienced, and they still persist. Many people of his time questioned whether black people had souls, or Jews, or Roma. It is moral to kill an orc? Or, if they are redeemable, should an attempt be made to save them? Tolkien was torn on this issue, because if they indeed had souls then the morality of so many heroes and societies in his books would have to be called into question. When Legolas and Gimli compete on who can kill more orcs, or when Gondorians hunt orcs like wild beasts... We should take pause and ask if they could have acted better. In a way, by becoming like their enemies, they had allowed Morgoth's influence to survive. Indeed, many of the tragic heroes of the Silmarillion danced with their own dark sides, and reaped dark rewards. No doubt, creating orcs is the worst thing Morgoth has done.
@Cosper79
5 ай бұрын
There is no need to take pause to consider if they acted better. Orcs had been actively destroying culture and peoples for thousands of years. Gimli and Legolas probably figured that the gods can decide what to do with them when they arrive after having sent them there.
@TheSuperRatt
5 ай бұрын
@@Cosper79 Exactly the same belief as the worst humans to have ever lived.
@fransmith3255
5 ай бұрын
Yes...this is the major problem in creating races that are omni-evil, and probably why authors don't create races like that much any longer. Although LOTR is a masterpiece and classic of writing. This is it's major downfall. It's kind of a symbol of the times that Tolkien lived in. I very much suspect that he would have written LOTR very differently had he lived in our time...
@DagorBragollach
5 ай бұрын
@@fransmith3255 haha yeah would it look like ROP?
@johnmcnutt8089
5 ай бұрын
@fransmith3255 what I always find scary is that when faced with a fictional ultra evil race some people identify and sympathize with them. Quite telling.
@lars9925
14 күн бұрын
In my opinion, we should adopt Christopher Tolkien's approach to his father's works: uphold the stories that fit well within the Legendarium and deprioritize the versions that conflict with other works, even if they are newer. J.R.R. Tolkien planned to do massive reworks, especially for the First Age, but he had merely started that process when he died. According to this approach, we can pretty definitively rule out the 1st and 4th Orc origin stories. Orcs were part of Melkor's early armies long before men were created, so early Orcs being even partly men creates a massive timeline conflict. Additionally, Orcs being creatures by Melkor out of stone conflicts with Melkor being unable to create life by himself. So we only have to decide if they were made out of Elves or animals. And as this very video shows, Tolkien himself believed that Orcs have a soul, which rules out the 3rd origin story. So the 2nd Orc origin story is the most likely: Orcs were made out of Elves. And this is exactly the conclusion that Christopher Tolkien came to, so he published this version in The Silmarillion. How their souls were treated is a question not even J.R.R. Tolkien was willing to answer, so we can only speculate and should do so with the same or even more caution than he did.
@thewiseoak
5 ай бұрын
I believe the orcs were corrupted elves. Somewhere I read that because of the Melkor element in all materials, the elves' hroa (physical body) are a bit corrupted, and they actually do decay slowly in Middle Earth. But the orcs have a far higher concentration of this Melkor element, so their bodies decay and they have a similar lifespan to Men. Only instead of passing outside of the circles of the world they remain imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos, awaiting their role in the Final Battle, and some kind of salvation.
@thewiseoak
5 ай бұрын
This explains how from the seemingly immortal elves, we have mortal orcs, even though Melkor obviously couldn't fiddle with the Gift of Men.
@Alexs.2599
5 ай бұрын
Yes orginally but how did Orcs manage to exist for thousands and thousands of years up until sometime in the 4th Age? How were they bred past that first generation of corrupted Elves I wonder?
@rbjmason
5 ай бұрын
This is excellent. I would believe that Tolkien would believe that any sentient being was capable of redemption, and it looks like that was where he was going even if he never said it. I'm not sure about animals, however. You can't have conversations with animals, like Beorn, and say they don't have a soul.
@rafaelgustavo7786
5 ай бұрын
"Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side" Is Gorbag talking about the abyss/hell when he quotes this dark on the other side? So they (orcs) believe in "life after death"? That they have a immortal soul?
@boldbearings
2 ай бұрын
A fine write up. I always thought Orcs had the souls of the Elves they wouldve been if not for Morgoth, since they have nightmares of Valinor. When Sam draws Sting against Shagrat, "its light smote the eyes of the orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries, the dream of which was a cold fear to all his kind...."
@MarcVaHe
5 ай бұрын
They don't go to Aman where the Ainur fly.
@heath_deadgerpvp1161
5 ай бұрын
I love the Cosmology of LOTR. I love that those who serve the Light can create; while the forces of evil cannot.
@nOT_sURE08
5 ай бұрын
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly.
@PMantle
4 ай бұрын
Came here looking for this comment.
@scrungo7610
4 ай бұрын
Won’t see em again till the Fourth of July
@earltheruralsquirrel6248
5 ай бұрын
Where do bad orcs go when they die? They don't go to Heaven where the angels fly They go to the lake of fire and fry See 'em again 'til the fourth of July!
@Aloddff
5 ай бұрын
The metaphysics of the soullessness of animals is super catholic
@Phytobiogenes
5 ай бұрын
As some of the comments mention, I too like to believe that they find peace and respite and healing in the Halls of Mandos. As for after that? Part of me likes the idea of reincarnation for them, to give them an actual chance to live as Eru intended, unburdened by Morgoth’s corruption and malice. Anything after that, it’s up to who that orc truly was, not who they were forced to become from even before their birth.
@chrisparker9672
5 ай бұрын
Great video as always!
@montyshield8876
5 ай бұрын
You’re such a legend and genius Robert. Thank you for all your amazing videos.
@freddiemedley5580
5 ай бұрын
6:51 what about Bill the Poney? As he had some form of consciousness, so therefore shouldn't he have a soul?
@Vistico93
16 күн бұрын
If orcs are indeed elvish and go to the Halls of Mandos, there will almost certainly be a number of awkward reunions there ;-)
@QuantumHistorian
5 ай бұрын
On the last note, it seems to me that Tolkien failed to be satisfied with the question of the souls of orcs because he recreated in LotR one of the unsolvable contradictions of Christian theology - theodicy (how an omnipotent, benevolent god could allow evil). Naturally, as a devout Christian I doubt he could acknowledge a contradiction in his core beliefs, and must have been troubled when forced to confront a very close analogy of it in his own writing. A precious window into his mind indeed.
@scotte4765
5 ай бұрын
I've noticed that parallel as well, though it's something no one seems to want to criticize or even point out because he's, well, Tolkien. The popular Christian answer of "it's a mystery, just take our word for it that it's all to the good" is a recurring theme in the Silmarillion and probably elsewhere in his work. It's not surprising that he held back from trying to give a complete and cogent answer in his correspondence, much less have any of his characters ask why Eru Illuvatar and the Valar let such suffering occur.
@homeonegreen9
5 ай бұрын
The Catholic answer to that question that he would have been most familiar with is the one of Thomas Aquinas. That is 1. God Being itself, 2. Existence is received being and is Good which means God is good, 3. Evil is an absence of good, 4. Love is to will the good of the other as other, 5. For love to exist it must be free will and choice, 6. God chose to create humans in His image including a choice which is usually symbolized by the fruit tree in the garden, 7. In allowing this choice He allowed a greater good, 8. In the fall we chose to make ourselves God defining good and evil which means in our freedom we separated from Him, 9. He did not leave us in this condition and sought out redemption through covenants with Israel then in the fullness of time His Son became incarnate, 10. In His life, death and resurrection our Human Nature is perfected, 11. Through an act of our will turning to God through Christ the damage of sin can be not only repaired but lifted higher because while Jesus is human He is also Divine, 12. That because God is infinite goodness, being, and love the end result is an even greater good than what the original would have been. This is why Gollum is the one who eventually destroyed the ring, in his greatest depravity an even greater good for the freedom of Middle Earth was allowed.
@QuantumHistorian
5 ай бұрын
@@homeonegreen9 I'm familiar with the usual explanations, and so I'm also familiar with why they're internally inconsistent without relying on some form of "shut up, stop thinking, just believe".
@scotte4765
5 ай бұрын
@@homeonegreen9 We've heard all that more than once, but thanks. Fortunately, Tolkien knew better than to include any of those tired arguments in the stories. "It's a mystery, don't worry about it" is no better logically but far more effective for a narrative focusing on the struggles of the characters. Your statement about Gollum oversimplifies the story greatly.
@ismellmandude6401
5 ай бұрын
@@QuantumHistorian They're not internally inconsistent, they're just able to be challenged if you work from a different framework from Christianity.
@KungFuKenobi
5 ай бұрын
Love your videos Robert! Lotr question, why does Aragorn stop Grima Wormtongue's execution? Aragorn never seems overly hesitant to kill and Grima seems worthy of death for what he's done. Also, by what right does he stop another king's decision?
@martavdz4972
5 ай бұрын
I'm not sure about this but as I understood it, the kings of Rohan considered the kings of Gondor a bit "above" themselves because they got the whole country from them as a gift.
@marieroberts5664
5 ай бұрын
Theoden was in a rage and not thinking clearly. Killing Wormtongue outright might make his men question the King's ability to rule, since he's been compromised until now, and killing any man without a fair hearing or trial was doubtless against the law in Rohan, and likely so since Helm Hammerhand, hero tho he was, acted impulsively and killed one of his council members, proclaimed those family and followers the King's enemies and started a civil war which tho he won it, cost him is own life and those of his sons, many Rohirrim, and increased the hatred between the Northmen who became Rohirrim and the local Dunlendings. He was babbling that he was a true and faithful man of Rohan and servant of the King, and so in the book he was given a choice, exile or come to battle with the king. Grima chose to flee.
@dandiehm8414
5 ай бұрын
Aragorn didn't stop the killing of Grima. Gandalf did.
@RangerHouston
27 күн бұрын
Would be neat to see Orcs in Mandos free of the corruption of Melkor. Their bodies healed and their minds and hearts freed Also animals definitely should have souls.Tolkien messed up saying they didn’t IMO lol
@7thmizukage
5 ай бұрын
They go with the flow, cheeky buggers
@austinhall3937
5 ай бұрын
I like to think that an orc is anything that had its soul harshly corrupted. Also, one of the things I love about Tolkien is that sometimes things are left open for interpretation. It leaves room for conversation all these years later
@thomasdalton1508
5 ай бұрын
The thing you have to keep in mind here is that Tolkien didn't see the immortality of the elves to be a blessing. The "Doom of Men" was a gift - they get to leave the material world and go on to, we assume, heaven (Tolkien deliberately does not say as much, but the implication is clear). To suppose that elves corrupted into orcs would lose the gift of immortality (which is probably the first idea most people would have) is, therefore, to misunderstand how Tolkien viewed immortality. This then presents us with a dilemma. The immortality of elves, while not a gift in Tolkien's eyes, still seems too good for orcs. But you can't have orcs going to heaven with men. So where do they go? Being imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos for eternity is probably the best answer that is available. (There is, of course, an unanswered question of where evil men go - orcs could, perhaps, go there.)
@TheSuperRatt
5 ай бұрын
Why assume that there is a separate end-point for good and evil Men in the first place, when no such thing is alluded to in the material? All Men die, after all.
@thomasdalton1508
5 ай бұрын
@@TheSuperRatt I'm not assuming there is, but it seems likely that in Tolkien's mind, there was. His Christian beliefs shaped his mythology - the world of his mythology was this world ("at a different stage of imagining") and he believed in the Christian heaven and hell as being where men of this world go when they die. He talked about their souls being able to leave this world being a gift from Eru to men. It seems likely that it was a gift only for those that were worthy of it and a less desirable fate awaited the rest.
@istari0
5 ай бұрын
@@thomasdalton1508 He wrote that the souls men would journey beyond the Circles of the World. That doesn't say to me that they all ended up in one place.
@thomasdalton1508
5 ай бұрын
@@istari0 Indeed. He left it very open. I'm sure his own view was of something very similar to the Christian heaven and hell where the righteous are blessed with being in the presence of God.
@julieolson1402
Ай бұрын
Excellent video for those of us interested in the philosophical and spiritual allusions of Tolkien's corpus. Thanks.🎉
@79personalities
5 ай бұрын
🎶 Where do bad folks go when they die 🎶
@thing_under_the_stairs
5 ай бұрын
Heard this in Kurt Cobain's voice.
@TheSuperRatt
5 ай бұрын
An interesting question, since what is considered bad and sinful changes from century to century.
@jabba334
3 ай бұрын
I always thought they recycle back into the bad minion jar like in the Legend of Zelda cartoon. 😂
@butamigonna469
5 ай бұрын
❤🔥
@_mrspanky_4587
Ай бұрын
I like the idea that Orc, much like the Uruk Hai, are beings that were a species of human, hobbit, dwarf etc, that were bred with evil
@Eastcyning
5 ай бұрын
I am reminded of Zoroastrian theology regarding wolves, which are sometimes held to be the creations of the evil god Ahriman, later made holy by the intervention of the creator-god Ohrmazd. Interestingly, I believe some Zoroastrian texts hold that Ahriman cannot create, and that wolves are instead a perversion or corruption of creatures created by Ohrmazd. In both cases, wolves are ultimately redeemed by the benevolence of the creator god, hence the domestication of the dog, a holy animal. I don't think this actually informs Tolkien's lore, but it is comforting to imagine that the orcs might finally know some respite in the afterlife. Theirs is a very cruel and sad existence.
@TheSuperRatt
5 ай бұрын
So the orcs will only find redemption in being made slaves to Man?
@Eastcyning
5 ай бұрын
@@TheSuperRatt "Domestication" was probably the wrong word to use here, I was referring to the domestication of dogs as a phenomenon separate from the theology. Dogs are certainly not viewed as slaves or subservient in that religion. I am sure there are other "evil creatures" that were redeemed in some other way, but wolves came to mind first
@zach11241
5 ай бұрын
All I can say is that they wake up, eyes squinting, slowly looking around them.... then they hear: “Hey, you. You’re finally awake.”.
@WatchingYoutube737
5 ай бұрын
They don't go to Heaven where the angels fly
@michardav
5 ай бұрын
The Ents also believed that Orcs were bred from the Eldar. If this is true, Orcs go to Mandos, only Erü can alter the gifts of Erü- it also means they are immortal.
@Rick_King
5 ай бұрын
I do believe that orcs, and the other baddies such as trolls and Shelob, do indeed have souls, and that there is an "orc hell," at least for those creatures. I also believe that no creature is irredeemable. I would think that there are some orcs who don't like what they're forced to do, and would rather live a peaceful life. This is an excellent channel, with another awesome video. Thanks, Robert!
@JT96708
5 ай бұрын
I like the way you are thinking. One of the few things I liked about Rings of Power was the humanization of the orcs in the last few episodes. They just seem to want a home land where they can get on with their own lives.
@spacemissing
5 ай бұрын
There is yet another question, then: What happens to Dwarves, who were made by Aule, when they die? Eru forgave Aule for his bold deed and hallowed his creations, but did that make them like the Eldar and Men? I do not presume myself to have an answer for this. And then there are Ents...
@dutchmansmine9053
18 күн бұрын
Aule created the Dwarves, but only Eru could give them life. Once he had done this they were effectively like the Eldar and Men. Given they die like Men, I assume they have a similar fate. I don't know about Ents though.
@joshuahoover6841
5 ай бұрын
They Don't Go to heaven where the Angels fly. They go to a lake of fire and Fry, see them again on the 4th of July
@eliasripley2357
4 ай бұрын
I really enjoy these explorations of Tolkien and his Works. At times I reckon it would've been fascinating to sit and talk with him; with a mug of ale and a pipe and beside a round fireplace, though I suspect I'd find myself out of my depth at some points! The chap really knew his onions 😊
@PiraticalBob
5 ай бұрын
What about Trolls, then? Were they captured and twisted Ents?
@scotte4765
5 ай бұрын
I wouldn't think so. As I recall that conversation (with Treebeard, I think?), trolls were described as Morgoth's attempt to _copy_ ents, i.e., his cheap imitations of them.
@JohnAmidon-c6r
5 ай бұрын
Animals have no soul? Others may disagree, but I've known several dogs, cats and horses that I would say definitely had souls.
@martavdz4972
5 ай бұрын
There's a difference between soul as in feelings, memory and individual character, being capable of grief etc.; and soul as in the immortal spiritual basis of a human being. Can animals pray, completely change their behaviour, feel retrospective shame for their actions, ask forgiveness for something they did 10 years ago? I'm not saying Christians think animals are somehow worse than people, a lot of Christians I know stress kindness to animals and seeing them as individuals.
@JohnAmidon-c6r
5 ай бұрын
@@martavdz4972 Marta, believe what you will; if you don't mind, I'll do the same.
@TheSuperRatt
5 ай бұрын
@@martavdz4972 Question: why is any of what you listed relevant? Christians may not believe that animals have souls, but countless other religions do. I've also known some unbelievably narcissistic people, who literally did not experience the emotion of shame. I suppose they don't have souls, according to your criteria?
@ismellmandude6401
5 ай бұрын
@@TheSuperRatt The reason it's relevant is because LOTR was made from a Christian perspective.
@FrankHorrigan1998
Ай бұрын
I like that there is no known or canon origin it adds mystery and wonder to the orcs unknown entities
@Phytobiogenes
5 ай бұрын
I wonder if maybe there’s truth to all of these theories. What if, akin to the dwarves, Melkor attempted to create the orcs directly out of stone but could not make them truly alive as only Eru can do that. Unlike dwarves, though, they would not receive Eru’s blessing and were little more than automatons. So he hatched a plan to capture elves with these automatons and his various other servants and use their ability to pass on he light of Eru, in the form of reproduction, to bring orcs life by having elves reproduce with orcs. But, in that, he found that they had 2 weaknesses. 1) sensitivity to sunlight, and 2) they still had the same fundamental drives and attitudes towards the good and the light as elves do. So he concluded to resolve these by breeding them with animals, making them more subservient, less intelligent, and ideally less sensitive to the sun. And it worked in part but ultimately didn’t find any real success on the sunlight thing and we’re still somewhat elven in their kinda blasé, nature loving way, and too irregular and primal in their animal ways. So he then pursued men for their drive and organization and again to hopefully mitigate sun sensitivity. In both respects he found significant success, though not perfection, and ran with that to make up his army. And that’s where Melkor’s orcs come from. Sauron and Saruman would go on to refine this, breeding orcs and trolls and such that are more strongly human and thus even more resistant to sunlight and more organized but Melkor likely would have started this whole process that Sauron and then Saruman would have plagiarized and performed more precisely as the two of them tended to do in their attempts at conquering Middle Earth.
@Neero_90
4 ай бұрын
the eventual Silmarillion way where elves were captured and corrupted is so damn intelligent and interesting, the amount of detail and amazing world building tolkien was capable of boggles my mind every day i listen to lore or think of the movies
@Ankhar2332
5 күн бұрын
Thats a very relevant question since many of us die in wars these days
@doggerel6847
5 ай бұрын
This is one of my favorites of your videos. Such a heartfelt ode to Tolkien in the guise of a niche fiction "trivia".
@mookiecookie44
5 ай бұрын
Tolkien said less, but told us so much more.
@shadowreaperjb
4 ай бұрын
Personal theory, If you go by the "elves corrupted" idea, and the idea that the halls are palace for healing for the souls of elves, you could take the view that a dead orc is healed of Morgoths taint. The taint could then be the part that is imprisoned. This idea could then be used to justify the uruk-hai, the corruption gets out of the halls, and worms it way into reality, not fighting a pure soul could be used to justify the light resistance
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