It would be wonderful to see more spells with flexible action economy. Horizon Thunder Sphere and Heal are great exemple of that. I realize it's maybe impossible to do that for EVERY spells in existence, but I think it's doable for a good part. And maybe mix some really specific/niche/situational spells into others more streamlined and used.
@Zakiel97
Жыл бұрын
it would be funny if they did it with all the spells though, even if it's really unnecessary to do so. Speak with Dead, get 2 questions per action spend casting this spell. Charm 1 action just gives a bonus to diplomacy checks, 2 actions works as it does now, 3 actions works as it does now but they also call you a cool nickname you desire. With enough people chipping in I believe we can turn every spell dynamic in under 3 actions.
@joshuaanson5939
Жыл бұрын
I think it would be cool for some that consume 2 actions on turns 1&2, rather than all 3 both turns. Spells like inner radiance torrent are so situational, with the final blast being so positioning dependent which makes it pretty easy for it to end in frustration.
@DaDunge
Жыл бұрын
Yes every spell being like those shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be for there to be enough such spells so that each spell school (/curriculum) can have access to at least one.
@kenkoopa7903
Жыл бұрын
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if part of the problem is the lack of play using the action economy, with spells most often taking two actions or more, meaning casters effectively have a standard action and a move/miscellaneous a la 3.x, making them feel locked in by the system rather than freed by it. I could see virtue in single-target spells taking single actions a la Strikes, meanwhile area/multi-target damage takes multiple actions; this might require a lot of rebalancing, but I think allowing that greater sense of play with the system might go a long way to help spellcasters feel better to play, as well as other avenues for freeing up actions for casters.
@powercore2000
Жыл бұрын
I agree. Another aspect where it feels like casters don't really engage in the systems mechanics is spell attacks vs normally attack rolls. Spell attacks almost always cost 2 actions, don't get the same accuracy buffs and scaling as other attack roll features, and still cost a finite spell slot to attempt. All of this for what seems to be an above average change for a miss which gives no value on a failure. The only accuracy support available for spell attacks are true strike, which is strong, but is only on two spell lists and costs another spell slot, and a level 10 shadow signent ring. It makes them feel like a trap option for most caster classes unless your a gish build like the magus, compared to save spells which still give you some value on failure.
@coolboy9979
Жыл бұрын
I like where casters are right now, but agree that they need to be able to do more with the 3 actions. Basically all spells are 2 actions. There are a few 1-3 2-3 3 and even 2 rounds spells, but there is basically no one action spells, except for shield, true strike and a few focus spells which ofc only specific people have access to. Interesting idea to play with would be to make all cantrips 1 actions (or at least a majority) and their damage comming mainly from spell slots and focus spells and with cantrips they would modify the battlefield and cripple enemies or help allies
@franciscoteixeira174
Жыл бұрын
Absolutely this
@someonewithsomename
Жыл бұрын
I agree. it's not that casters are weak in this system. It's that they FEEL weak, which is a major difference.
@centurosproductions8827
Жыл бұрын
@@powercore2000 I agree, half damage on spell attack roll misses might be good. I'd even accept quarter damage or enforced minimum damage on a miss. Just as long as it does *something* for your two actions and finite resource and the opportunity cost of not just using a save spell.
@swagmomite7177
Жыл бұрын
i think one thing i've noticed while running abomination vaults is that most saving throw spells feel terrible since most monsters so far seem to save really easily against effects
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
If you aim for the worse saves, they won't save all that often for how strong the effects are!
@DakonBlackblade2
Жыл бұрын
@@rednidedni3875 That and pretty much every save spell also do something on an enemy success. And try to have someone intimidate or something the monster first so their saves get worse.
@davidbowles7281
Жыл бұрын
@@DakonBlackblade2 "Something" is often not worth the 2 actions and the spell slot. You'd have been better off buffing your group, which doesn't give a save. Intimidate also needs a roll and is an if-come-maybe. Makings rolls to make other rolls better create multiple points of failure.
@DakonBlackblade2
Жыл бұрын
@@davidbowles7281 Lol, PF2e is based on buffing and debuffing, what the hell are you talking about? Also demoralizing is super free, more often than not ppl will have a spare action after attacking twice, moving and attacking or whatever. If your group does not have an intimidation specialist it is missing a great asset. Also "something" is much better than "nothing" which is what a martial gets when they miss an attack, "but it's only one action" you might say, ye but the follow up attack is much less likely to land so likely it'd be two actions for two missed attacks (and sometimes strikes can be 2 actions, there are plenty of 2 actions activities that are strikes). On top of this having an almost guaranteed outcome allows you to plan around spells much more easily, you know unless the enemy crit saves X will always happen, and your group can make a strategy around X, if Y happens great, nut having effects on fails gives you consistency and that is great in a strategical system like PF2e. And lastly, its a blatant lie that save spells fail too much (if casters actually target low saves or at the very least avoid high saves), the freaking system is designed so that a save spell will land around 60% of the time baseline against enemies of the same level as you, usually what this complain means is that someone tried to target the 3 LVs higher big boss dragon's forititude and missed
@feral_orc
Жыл бұрын
@@rednidedni3875 if you have meta-knowledge or have homebrewed recall knowledge*
@HaibaneKuu
Жыл бұрын
Re: Support being less or more "glorious". I mean it depends on support in question. If your support is that you spend two actions and a spell slot to inflict a -1 status penalty to DCs and ability checks for one round it will probably not feel all that glorious. Sure it can turn a hit into a crit, or a miss into a hit, but all in all it's just a 10% chance of actually doing anything at all - because if whoever attacks the target doesn't roll one of the two very specific values on the die, it has basically no effect. Does it help? Sure it does when those specific values are rolled. Does it feel extremely impactful? I can only speak for myself, but not really. Sadly more often than not it will not do anything.
@Zakon673
Жыл бұрын
This so much. People who like support (like me) also want our support to feel cool and exciting. Stuff like Conductive Weapon, less stuff like -1 to AC or +1 to attack rolls.
@Ghost.in.the.Machine
Жыл бұрын
I agree that buff cantrips like Guidance are quite underwhelming. It gets better with something like Inspire Courage, as it applies to the entire party (usually), and that small effect adds up significantly. Then the big splashy buffs - Haste, for instance. Honestly, the attack buffs are significantly hampered by the flat scaling of a d20 combined with tiers of success. Using multiple dice produces a bell curve distribution that makes a flat bonus more effective in the middle (hit vs miss) without as much increase in the extremes (hit vs crit). I have long felt that d20 systems would be better off using 2d10 or 3d8 instead of 1d20, but that's a particularly hard sacred cow to kill.
@Zakon673
Жыл бұрын
@@Ghost.in.the.Machine Inspire Courage is fantastic and feels awesome to use specifically for that reason. Spending a 3rd level spell slot to give one person a +1 to attack rolls (Heroism), not so much. Heroism is also one of the best buffs in the game and one of the best spells on the Divine spell list. Yes it does more than giving a bonus to attack, but that's the most relevant part of what it does. It's not unreasonable to assume that if I'm playing a class which is using the Divine spell list, I would actually like to be pretty good at buffing people, but the buffs are so boring. I would like to be doing stuff like infusing my allies' weapons with the power of my god, or giving them angel wings to fly, or even just something more akin to 5e's Bless spell where a 1d4 is added to the attack roll instead of just a flat 1.
@taragnor
Жыл бұрын
Yeah +X to hit is relatively boring. It's more interesting really for support stuff that gives pure hit bonuses to be a reaction type ability where you can use it on an almost good enough roll to make it a success. So someone rolls a 22, misses the AC of 23 and you say "I'll use thunder god's blessing to give you a +2 to that attack, turning it into a hit." That way, whenever you cast the spell, the spell feels like it did something, both in the narrative and from a player perspective. Everyone knows the cleric or bard turned the miss into a hit, and the character feels useful. As opposed "I bless you 3, you feel slightly stronger, gain a +1 to your attack rolls", to which most people are going to be very underwhelmed.
@giorgitsiklauri1283
9 ай бұрын
@@taragnor This is why it's good to keep track of modifiers so you know exactly why the check hit or crit, then if that was because of a buff or debuff you narrate how, like if an enemy Clumsy and that causes a hit you can narrate that the enemy stumbled due to the spell and that's why the attack hit. This is made easier in Foundry by modules like Modifiers Matter.
@Nolinquisitor
Жыл бұрын
I think it is good that Pathfinder allows players to play a vast array of character, with tons of options, but there is always a point at which class set limits upon what one can do. That's how class-based RPGs works. A feature, not a bug. And as always, class discussions disappear when you play a class-less RPG.
@DavidGRauscher
Жыл бұрын
Yes, I think that’s right. I think that’s the response to the Blaster Caster discussed near the end of the video: PF2E doesn’t design a class that has only 1 version of itself. The blaster caster is so specific - big damage, and low everything else. Why develop a class where there’s only one way to play it?
@HaibaneKuu
Жыл бұрын
@@DavidGRauscher Because there's no way to achieve that archetype with existing classes? Also how does "big damage" equate to "only one way to play it"? I'm fairly sure there's quite some design space to enable various "big damage" concepts. Frankly if "single target damage" is martials' only thing (as argued in the video) then why is there so many martial classes then?
@Prberts
Жыл бұрын
@@HaibaneKuu but there are ways to achieve it. The Magus does this and has the sacrificed versatility that every one says they are happy to give up. Psychic too. The kintetist as well. The problem is people want their Wizard to do it, without sacrificing too mucn of anything else.
@HaibaneKuu
Жыл бұрын
@@Prberts That "problem" is overblown. It's even seen in the video how the most common opinion and desire is to have more specialized casters that do smaller subset of magic well rather than "doing big damage and retaining all the versatility".
@DavidGRauscher
Жыл бұрын
@@HaibaneKuuYes, I was wondering if an Archetype-approach might work. Issue is it would have to impose some really significant constraints to achieve the design objectives of OP that was cited (ie, you take this archetype you get blasty, but at the same time you must accept a Nerf in everything else). Possible but could prove problematic. I don’t think Single Target Damage is Martials’ only thing - he’s saying it’s their Special Thing - the thing they are best at. All Classes have a TON of ways they can be built, and do and be good at lots of different things. You could build a Fighter that’s also good at Diplomacy, for example, or really smart with some skills. But they’ll never be the Best at those other things.
@evrypixelcounts
Жыл бұрын
There are two vocal minorities in the community. One that tells everyone to be grateful for Paizo's grace, and the other that treats everything in the system with disdain. The problem is, both of these groups interfere with valid criticism and discussion of the game. I enjoy playing casters, but that's not going to stop me from criticizing some of their flaws. Save spells, support spells, and utility spells are in a decent place for the most part. Attack spells on the other hand. . .they're in a very rough spot. It's expected that you spend a slot or staff charge on true strike to get them to hit, and that doesn't sit right with me. You're spending 3 actions, and 2 resources, for the chance of succeeding a single attack roll.
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
Worth noting is that said attack roll is not just going to be very accurate, but also hits like a *truck* for the kind of range it has. I agree that balancing around true strike is wonky but eh, the primal/divine attack roll spells make up a tiny margin and I think it's no bigger a problem than something like Invoke Spirits being underwhelming. Especially when there's alternatives. Primal gets 3 action horizon thunder sphere which performs quite well, both get searing light which hits so bloody hard in the right fights that it doesn't even need help to be worth the gamble.
@enriquesanders
Жыл бұрын
I agree. And seems like the Rules Lawyer belongs to the first of those minorities you mention.
@Ghost.in.the.Machine
Жыл бұрын
@@enriquesanders Hardly. Ronald criticizes Paizo when it is deserved - recall knowledge, pre-remaster hammer/flail crit specialization, etc.
@aaronjung5502
Жыл бұрын
@rednidedni3875 The better solution is to get rid of true strike, or nerf it into the ground, and give casters fundamental rune access or something. True Strike is a legacy thing and it’s a problem spell, working out to a +3 bonus to an attack roll from very low levels for the cost of spending an extra slot. If it absolutely must stay as is, at least add some fun to it and make it a reaction trigger and a fortune effect so all of your rank one spells don’t have to be true strike the minute you hit level 3. There shouldn’t be an item or spell that if you don’t take it you can’t be viable in a 1v1 or ambush. Best in slot was a big problem in 3.5/Pf1e that PF2E was supposed to be designing around. Remember amulets of natural armor? Cloak of resistance? Ring of protection?
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
@@aaronjung5502 While I agree on its clunkiness, I really don't think you "can't be viable in 1v1s" or the other things you said. You do not have to prepare true strike everywhere, I don't know what you'd use that many slots for to begin with - doubly so when staves with the spell exist when you really want it. Spell attack spells make up just a small fraction of good anti-boss spells.
@Ectar2003
Жыл бұрын
I think what you identified around 29:00 is part of the frustration people feel with regarding casters in this game. Because, especially prepared, casters can change their spell list daily and because of the removal of the math fixer feats from PF1 (and good riddance), it's hard for a caster to truly specialize in anything. Sure you can pick all the damage spells every day, but any given day you could decide to become a battle field control caster instead. And there's no way to really limit your own versatility in exchange for greater, albeit narrower, power. In PF1 if you want to be "The Fireball Wizard", you can put all your feats towards Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, Empower Spell Metamagic, ect. Most of the feats a Fireball Wizard would take weren't shared by other kinds of wizards and because their benefits only affected Evocation Spells or Spells with Spell Resistance (ie: those not typically cast by control wizards), they could become better at damage spells than their contemporaries. And there's just no adequate way to specialize casters in PF2 by comparison. It *might* have been nice if there were an archetype or something that let you reduce your spell selection for increased benefits from spells of a different category. Something akin to the elementalist archetype, but MORE. Oh well. While I do miss PF1 feats allowing for more hyper-focused builds, PF2 is definitely the better game overall. But I do still miss some aspects of PF1.
@Minandreas213
Жыл бұрын
A big part of the caster discussion that I never see get attention, but which I think is critical, is what part of the game are you playing? Are you playing at level 1 or level 10? Most every example I see someone tout of spells and spellcasters being awesome comes from waving around high level spells like maze. But I have literally never played any of these games in my 15 years with the hobby past level 13. I would say 80% of my playtime in these games has been between levels 1-5. And I don't think its a hot take at this point to say casters feel pretty crap at low levels in P2. I'd be willing to bet money that there is a distinct correlation between players that are unsatisfied with casters and players that have only experienced low level play. And as a result, I think this is a very critical part of the discussion. Will I play a sorcerer in your game? Are we starting at level 10? Then hell yes I will. Oh, we're starting at level 1? Hell no. I'm not going to spend 4 hours each week for months being bored and disappointed with my class, only to START feeling like an actual sorcerer that can do some cool magic right before the game falls apart. Just give me the fighter.
@Areinu
Жыл бұрын
While the history of d&d wizards is a good point on expectations, I feel like 2e is also to blame. It has a bit of bait and switch built in into casters, where for many spells you're supposed to plan around fail effects. When a player reads available spells the natural expectation is to succeed on regular basis. One expecting those better effects then becomes more in more dissatisfied as the game progresses. No other thing in 2e is built around failure. Thief is expected to open locks and disarm traps, not to trigger most of the traps but "hey, at least it's better than stepping on them". Sure, if one cracks the numbers during character build they can have proper expectations, but the rulebooks don't lead you there. Many spells are like disarm action. You read the name and description and think you'll disarm opponents. What it really does is -2 to opponent attack rolls. Anywhere where you can reliably get critical success you can as well just attack and kill with the crit, instead of wasting one MAP for that effect. Expectation is failure effect on spells should be consolidation prize, but very often it's the prize, while success is "cool bonus sometimes". In the rest of the game critical success is the "cool bonus sometimes". At least in the games I DM this is main source of dissatisfaction. Even players with no prior d&d experience feel that, and when they express their dislike of casters it's the core problem. Once they learn "the secret" and adjust their expectations and spell selection it starts to be much more fun for them. So, pf2e, as much as I like it, can't put the whole blame on spoiled d&d vets.
@JoniWan77
Жыл бұрын
I feel like what you are describing here is interesting. Technically "failing" is not an option at all for spells, that aren't spell attacks. Technically it's the opponent "succeeding" a saving throw. Both terms are quite stupid, though. If an opponent "succeeds" the saving throw it feels like I "failed" the spell only on terminology. In fact the spell hit and had an effect. It's therefore neither a "success" for the opponent nor a "failure" for the caster. Instead it's an unsatisfying compromise for both, considering how the game mechanics frame it. It'd probably be less unsatisfying if saving throws wouldn't run on a "failure/success"-scale, which still presupposes "save or suck", but instead be framed as simply degrees of effect as a scale without a binary opposition.
@genocys
Жыл бұрын
I wonder if changing the names of the level of success to "nullified, moderate, major, critical" would help set expectations better.
PF2e isn't to blame, the examples set by Adventure Paths kinda are. Adventure Paths are full of fights against single creatures at level PL+2 or +3, which is a recipe for forcing casters to always only look at the succeed options. My recommendation: cap enemies that aren't storied boss fights at level +1 and use the extra budget to buy more PL-1 or -2 enemies, which are still threatening but have a way higher chance of being failed or critically failed. This method is way more in line with the suggested adventure-building guidelines, but is sadly often not followed by the APs themselves. Bonus suggestion: replace PL-3 and -4 enemies with minions, PL-2 creatures that are Slowed 1 and have 3 hp but take 1 damage on a miss/succeeding a save, 2 damage on being hit/failing a save, or 3 damage on being critted/critically failing. Give them Power Attack to punish being ignored. Use 3-4 of them instead of a PL-2 creature with full hp.
@Chadius
Жыл бұрын
@@malkyn9998 Fireball is a lousy boss killer option... yet it's a wonderful crowd clearer. But Boss DPR is the main measuring tool many people use to determine strength.
@cinderheart2720
Жыл бұрын
I dislike that attack rolls for spells are significantly weaker than targeting a save. Fix that, and I will shelve the rest of my complaints. There are spells where you have to make an attack roll and then the target also makes a save. That's very hard to do just to get a debuff off. True Strike is a bit of a stopgap, but it does work. However, it's only in 2 spell traditions out of 4. If there were different spellcaster feats that could increase their spell attack bonus in different situations, that would be great. Imagine a Witch being able to gain a bonus to hit against hexed enemies, or a cleric praying as a skill check to get a bonus to their next spell if they succeed. Isn't that more flavourful?
@cinderheart2720
Жыл бұрын
Note: this is not actually about power level, its about theming for me. If a wizard can know all these attack roll spells, they should be viable to a minimum extent. They're already limited resources, why do they have to be exceedingly unreliable as well?
@jgrif7891
Жыл бұрын
There's a magic item for this in game.
@powercore2000
Жыл бұрын
@@jgrif7891 a 10th lvl magic item, which is a bandaid, not a solution
@ScarecrowSkye
Жыл бұрын
band-aid solution and its a lvl 10 item..@@jgrif7891
@ArceusShaymin
Жыл бұрын
Legitimately Paizo's designers have said that attack roll spells are like this *specifically* because of True Strike being in the game. IMO, scrap True Strike and allow the casters a magic item akin to a Gate Attenuator and that solves a lot of issues regarding attack roll spells, or as per your suggestion, give the casters feats that give them bonuses pertaining to their unique mechanics. True Strike is really limiting the design space of attack roll spells (and to a degree Magus).
@lucamonticelli267
Жыл бұрын
I feel like one of the reason the for someone caster feel weak, is the fact that they are the only class(exept alchemist ) that rely on "x number of times" per day abilities expecually at lower levels. Focus point limit this to an extent, but with the fact that martial can theoretically go to an infinite number of encounter day can make them feel very limited and over reliant on spells that aren't going to miss like runic weapon.
@morganpetros9635
Жыл бұрын
I will disagree with you on only one point: cantrip damage in 5e *SUH-HUUUUCKS.* Consider this: when calculating DPR for D&D 5e, the *BASELINE* is generally considered to be Eldritch Blast WITH Agonizing Blast and an increase to CHA at every opportunity until it's maxxed out. You will note that this damage completely outclasses every other cantrip in the game. You should also note that any optimizer can beat this baseline, often by over 100% and almost always without using cantrips at all. This is not a defense of 5e magic or even 5e generally. Because you're right in saying that a system requiring one of exactly two feats or the paladin's Smite (bringing spellcasting into play again) in order to optimize a martial character's damage output is deeply flawed. However, if you're playing a "full caster" in 5e and expecting to exceed or even match *ANY* martial character's damage output, much less one that's been optimized in any way, with Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost or any cantrp *BUT* Eldritch Blast, you're in for a disappointing game.
@lawrl777
Жыл бұрын
i mean im pretty sure sorlock eldritch machine gun is still the king of round-after-round DPR in 5e, and it specifically sacrifices all other spells on the altar of eldritch blast
@ScarecrowSkye
Жыл бұрын
Ronald, I respect you a lot and have been subscribed for a long time. What I find frustrating about this video is that it feels disingenuous to go into a huge talk about how spoiled casters are before saying "they want to have their cake and eat it too", while totally ignoring just how many people have said "No, I'd be perfectly happy as a sorcerer to forego my access to utility spells for the sake of better single target damage options". What people on your side of this argument are largely missing is that there's a specific flavor of class fantasy that used to be possible and is extremely common in media, but doesn't really work in pathfinder 2e (Kineticiist comes closest, and I love the class, but it has a specific flavor to it). I don't think "role protection" is necessary in the way you're framing it--A slotted caster who is able to do similar single target damage to a ranged martial would not be ruinous to people who want to play rangers, fighters or gunslingers. Being a swiss army knife is one type of caster role, it doesn't need to be the only one, and im tired of this disingenuous framing that it does.
@thestylemage2092
Жыл бұрын
Play Psychic then, go for dangerous sorcery, use a signature slot on magic missle for boss dpr...
@WolfBoy-om6dw
Жыл бұрын
Amen brother
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
These arguments can only be made by dismissing the feelings and experiences of people playing casters and finding the experience unenjoyable. In order to defend the game system, you have to maintain that all of these people are unreasonable and want to have fun wrong.
@aminehsu6629
Жыл бұрын
Honestly, as the one caster in a party of martial, I don't feel like a supporter, I just kinda feel worthless. In battle it feels like everyone else is doing more damage or more effective with their combat actions and I'm just a body taking up space and during exploration everyone else feels much more useful with their better skills
@lawrl777
Жыл бұрын
i mean in PF2, a wizard and fighter have the exact same skill and skill feat progression, wizard just has a few more skills that will never go beyond Trained. Only the rogue and investigator get more
@aminehsu6629
Жыл бұрын
@lawrl777 true, two of the martials on the group were a rogue and investigator
@ericcontreras3966
9 ай бұрын
I'm right there with you. I'm a druid in a party full of martials and yeah definitely feel just like pretty useless really doesn't feel great when I ise fire ball on a trash mob and 3/4 succeed the Save and take 0 damage for one of my limited and precious "big spells" or when I cast flaming sphere on a slug monster and it and the sphere are occupying the same space and it takes no damage for 4 turns another spell slot wasted ugh it feels terrible.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
I mean in all of these cases it feels like you're not playing to your strengths if you constantly lament your lack of damage.
@StarryxNight5
7 ай бұрын
@Dharengo "Or more effective with their combat options" It doesn't feel like they're only going blaster here.
@TenkDD
Жыл бұрын
Fundamentally I think the most harmful part of caster playspace in pf2 IS their "niche". Every single caster class in the game combined has less variety than 1-2 non-caster classes, because they are all locked inside the same near-identical generalist toolbox identity. There's incredibly strong spells like Synesthesia or Maze or Roaring Applause, and they're great. But every caster in the game is held back by these options existing. Kineticist is a promising breath of fresh air! Oh also paizo should really get rid of or rework the trap options in the spell lists.
@jimbob929
Жыл бұрын
when you create hundreds of spells there's always going to be trap options, especially if you're Paizo who much prefers an option be severely underpowered than even slightly overpowered. I think this is smart as it protects the game from power creep, but you can almost feel the trepidation of the designers with how lackluster some of these options are. I think a few heuristics I'd like to see going forward are no more incapacitation single target spells, if you want single target incapacitation make it only affect one component or variation of the spell, such as with Cinder Swarm or Phantasmal Killer. Another is to always provide an effect on a successful saving throw, and to more generally balance spells with the understanding that successful saving throws will often be the most likely outcome, and are what players will primarily look towards when evaluating save targeting spells.
@franciscoteixeira174
Жыл бұрын
Less, more versatile (and/or with variable action cost) spells would make casting in pf2 soooo much better
@tnttiger3079
Жыл бұрын
I agree. I think casters should be encouraged to specialise, and that should MEAN something. There's no inherent issue with a wizard outputting damage similar to a Fighter (accounting for multi-target damage and vulnerabilities ofc), the issue in that one that can do that can implicitly ALSO be a jack-of-all-trades generalist toolbox. My approach would be to nerf spells across the board. Then make character choice- class, subclasses, and feats--a really matter. You SHOULD be able to perform on par to a fighter- but only if you spec 100% into doing so, sacrificing your utility pillar.
@Schdt
Жыл бұрын
I like the idea. Like ¥ When you can choose a new spell, you can highten existing spell instead (looks similar to what is already here, but we need to make it better)
@xaropevic7918
Жыл бұрын
Agreed totally, why is so easy to make a full party of a certain martial class but so clunky to make the same of a spellcaster class?
@christopherbennett2411
Жыл бұрын
My issue with the casters has always been on accuracy. At the higher levels of the APs, the caster is wasting their spell slots attempting to target enemies. Yes, the caster can target something other than AC. But that doesn't mean the enemy doesn't crit succeed anyway. The casters need runes to increase their accuracy/DC. We did that, and it felt better.
@ArceusShaymin
Жыл бұрын
This is mostly an AP problem - Paizo's AP designers aren't following their own game's encounter guidelines and it can feel frustrating for the PCs when going up against like the 4th PL+0 multi-enemy fight or PL+3 single enemy "not a boss-fight" fight in the session. The *actual* encounter design guidelines make for a fairly satisfying experience for even a suboptimal spellcaster. I presume the APs do this because they want the characters to level up in accordance with the beats of the book and don't want to throw fights that give low amounts of XP everywhere since that'd make it feel more like a slog. I *also* presume this is why newer adventures aren't going to always be 1-20 or 1-10/11-20 and they'll be experimenting with level ranges (one of the new adventures is confirmed to be 1-12 for example)
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
I can't quite wrap my head around this quite yet. Casters get legendary in spell DC's, and it's not like monsters get legendary or even master equivalent in every single defense. The idea that they will crit succeed 100% of the time seems rather alien to me at this point in time.
@StarryxNight5
7 ай бұрын
@Dharengo I apologise for flooding your notifications so much, but that is such a bad take. Most people aren't speaking from the experience of level, and this is supremely funny to me by the way, _level fucking 19._ Before that, casters are consistently two levels behind martials in proficiency, and this isn't even counting potency runes, which casters don't get. The closest thing they get is a Shadow Signet, which only appears when your game is close to ending anyway
@TheOnionKnight1
Жыл бұрын
It's sort of irritating that the clip example you used of the absent player Bard being controlled by a martial player is super high level play. I haven't played FotRP but I do know it's a 10-20 AP, and yes Maze is a powerful spell but it's one of few that are that powerful and to top it all off, not only did the Bard player not have to play the painful beginning levels, the martial player got to jump straight into a minimum 15th level caster that does have all its fun toys and spell slots.
@ArceusShaymin
Жыл бұрын
Not to mention Bard is notoriously one of the more generous casters in terms of feeling useful at all points in the game, so even at low levels I'd say the argument feels pretty disingenuous since their Comp Cantrips are nuts and a lot of times other casters' Focus Spells don't hold a candle to them. Being a spontaneous caster doesn't hinder you too hard when you always have good compositions to rely on, whereas there's not nearly as much reliability in the Sorcerer's or Oracle's focus spells.
@grantsamson2384
Жыл бұрын
I think there should be a niche for a blaster caster that doesn't have the highest dpr, but can bring the highest damage in a single round - a nuker, basically.
@n.l.g.6401
Жыл бұрын
You can actually kind of do this as a spellblending thesis wizard: you sacrifice two lower-rank slots to gain one of up to two ranks higher. Does nothing at levels 1 and 2 (unless you wanna crack a slot in half to prep two extra cantrips), but once you hit level 3 you can rock out with 4 rank 2 slots (3 f you're not a universalist, 5 if you count draining your bonded item). By level 6, you're looking at up to six fireballs a day, and it only gets nuttier from there.
@toodleselnoodos6738
Жыл бұрын
@@n.l.g.6401And to add to that - upgrading your staff is cheaper than martials upgrading their gear. Every caster should have +1 to their highest slot because of that. And they can use scrolls. And they can use wands. It’s so disingenuous with the damage arguments where it’s shown how to deal incredible damage with a caster and folks say, “But you used your 3 spell slots to do that”. Fine, no items? Take away the martials runes. Martials will be shit too without their items.
@aaronjung5502
Жыл бұрын
@toodleselnoodos6738 Expound on this incredible damage. Does it actually take accuracy into account or are you just comparing average hit to average hit? Because casters hit a lot less and have to spend more actions to try. A high level caster will hit slightly more often than a high level martials second attack. Wands and scrolls are a single level dip into a caster. Kind of like people used to dip into fighter in 3.5. Which we all agree was bad. Where are you getting a +1 for casters from a staff. Do you mean more spell slots for the wizard to miss with? I don’t think it’s crazy to ask for a caster that has utility and can still hit for decent burst damage in exchange for their extreme fragility. Y’all would go nuts if someone suggested rogues shouldn’t be able to access +1 fundamental runes to balance out their skill monkey utility. Their burst damage is also high when they hit, but like a caster, they need to hit.
@toodleselnoodos6738
Жыл бұрын
@@aaronjung5502 One additional spell slots.
@ColdNapalm42
Жыл бұрын
@@aaronjung5502 Shadow signet is why casters can't get fundamental runes. That item was a mistake. I understand they were worried about casters when they released without access to fundamental runes originally...but fixing that issue with shadow signet was a mistake.
@erikthiele289
Жыл бұрын
One thing that is ACTUALLY lacking in PF2e and needs to be addressed with the remaster is Recall Knowledge. To attack different defenses and actually USE my diverse toolkit of damage types and attack options (all three saves, AC) I need a way to find out how and when! Recall Knowledge needs clearer rules and casters need more ways to use and/or action compression for Recall Knowledge (i’d even go as far to suggest giving casters access to one automatically scaling knowledge Skill, maybe Nature for Druids, Arcana for Wizard, etc.) These are, for me, the most important changes which NEED TO HAPPEN with the remaster in my opinion. EDIT: All this is from the point of view, that people complain about casters in combat. I think these changes would make them more satisfying to play.
@cold12u
Жыл бұрын
The thing is, we actually need to know what we will be fighting when I prep we prep our spells. Say I decide to prep a bunch of mental spells, turns out we are fighting a golem! None of those spells slots are useful! Or I prep Calm Emotions and everything is too high level? Or I prep for undead killing getting Holy Cascade and we don't fight undead? Turns out I just now have a 1st level fireball that cost a holy water and three actions to cast. So many of these instances has these come up where my spell slots are literally useless. When people talk about versatile, people never think about it the other way, of versatiling yourself being useless.
@erikthiele289
Жыл бұрын
@@cold12u also very true and harder to "hardcode" into the rules. Need to raise the issue to your dm and play together with him
@justjunk3803
Жыл бұрын
I think buffing RK wouldn't satisfy the mass of complaints but I'm all for it. At the minimum I roll the right skill for the player, having to choose a certain "field" to cross reference in your head is kind of absurd.
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
It has been announced by the developers that recall knowledge is getting a clearer system in the remaster
@n.l.g.6401
Жыл бұрын
@@cold12u Something that really helps with this is scouting and research. If you're just barreling into every encounter willy-nilly or your GM just throws them at you without warning, prepped casting can feel really punishing. But the more space you have to plan, the better you'll do. Talk to your GM if you feel like they're not giving you enough space to lean into you class features. Also, the spell substitution thesis and flexible caster archetype say hi. You don't have to put up with Vancian casting on your favorite class if you don't want to.
@nikidelvalle
Жыл бұрын
You know I've never thought that the problem with casters in 2E is their power, it's how bad they feel to play. I don't think casters need buffs, or at least nothing overt... I think the little annoyances of playing particularly low level spellcasters need to be smoothed out. I just started playing a Witch and being level 1 with only 2 spell slots even though there are fundamentally important spells I basically need to prepare (Mage Armor and Magic Weapon, always low-level essentials) just sucks. Then now with the Remaster you have these severe cuts to the minimum damage cantrips can deal which is annoying, and because of proficiency delays on spellcasters (which would be fine if proficiency only affected your DC but it's also attached to your spell attack rolls that target AC). With Cantrips there are very few 1-action fillers unless you're playing certain classes, which can often make casters who fail to cast an effective spell feel like their turn was wasted. All of these things combined descend on the most commonly played levels of the game to make casting just have all these little frustrations, and despite the fact that casters are perfectly powerful anyway it does make you feel weak. I really think these frustrations can be pretty easily smoothed over. Every caster should have a way to recuperate a few low-level spell slots throughout a day, there should be more one action cantrips and in particular one that deals damage, and they should put spellcasting ability mod onto all spell damage. Changes like this would be minimally balance-effecting and yet drastically improve the feel of low-level spellcasting. Also there needs to be more support for specialist casters. I think having a limited spell list with a faster spell rank progression should be something they're looking at. All in all, I think people wouldn't be worried about whether casters were buffed or nerfed or not if the casters they were playing didn't feel so bad to play.
@leonelegender
Жыл бұрын
Mage armor sucks in pf2, don't do that to yourself
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
@@leonelegenderIt helps at level 1.
@StarryxNight5
7 ай бұрын
I think an example that highlights "Feel" vs "Mechanics" is the rogue in 5e. It is, objectively, just a bad class in combat. Expertise is nice to have, but the maths on it is pretty wonky before level 9 or so. I've heard multiple people who are very experienced with the system call it a contender for the worst class in the game. But do you know how many people complain about rogues being weak? Literally only optimizers. Never heard anybody else complain. This is because the designers did an _amazing_ job at building the class. Sneak attack barely lets you keep up with Extra Attack. A d6 of consistent damage every two levels is so pathetic that optimizers rarely take more than three levels of Rogue unless they're actively trying to fit in Rogue levels. But it certainly _feels_ amazing to roll a metric fuckton of dice, especially on a crit. Crits that you're pretty likely to get, since you're incentivised to get advantage moreso than most other classes. Expertise gives you big numbers on your sheet. Having a +11 to stealth feels great. Cunning action feels amazing to play with, since you can afford to just _do more stuff._ This is why design matters a lot more than optimization. A class doesn't have to be good to feel good. But conversely, a class doesn't have to be bad to feel bad
@gremlinactivity
Жыл бұрын
How to play a damage caster in PF2e: Play a martial. Magus does the most single target damage. Is that good design? I don't really think it is.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
Would you rather have martials be useless?
@curiouswind9196
3 ай бұрын
I would rather have what we have now compated to DnD5e martial/caster divide
@dezdannaselaphiel8634
Ай бұрын
@@curiouswind9196 Yeah, because you play a martial, so now that the problem doesn't affect you, you don't want change anymore.
@curiouswind9196
Ай бұрын
@@dezdannaselaphiel8634 both systems have an "imbalance" but 5e's divide is way more imbalanced than 2e
@dezdannaselaphiel8634
Ай бұрын
@@curiouswind9196 That's obvious, but the problem in 2e is that they focused so much on balance they completely threw out the actual experience of playing, it doesn't even feel like a world you're in anymore, it feels like an MMO with how they put balance above internal in-universe logic.
@theforlornknight
Жыл бұрын
While I agree with many of your points, one that I understand in theory seems to fall flat in practice. Casters can target different defenses is one of those "900 IQ" things I think that reddit post was talking about. With an average of 3 slots per level, how is a caster supposed to have a spell for each defense at a spell rank that is viable for their level? The example you gave was Maze which is Rank 8, but that's level 15. Most games don't make it that far, with many APs coming out now topping at level 10. What is a caster supposed to do in the low to mid-level games? And I don't mean to be a blaster caster, but to be able to contribute damage effectively and meaningfully for their level. Other than Magic Missile in a slot at every level. Hope this is addressed in your 'How to Caster'.
@Toxie2725
11 ай бұрын
Let alone that Marshals have *ZERO* consumable resources that they have to manage - unlike a caster who can easily run dry if they try to keep up damage output. It 100% sucks to sit there and cantrip your way through things. Focus spells aren't the greatest answer, since magic feels so much less impactful in 2e.
@diegocorvalan5435
10 ай бұрын
if you want to play a wizard then you have less damage but way more utility, so use spells that do utility, there are still many options to do damage for spell casters like druids or magus, but complaining about a low damage high utility class having low damage just feels like you want what you cant have.
@Toxie2725
10 ай бұрын
@@diegocorvalan5435 Bullshit. Wizards shouldn't be releagted to utility only. Thats a bad design, much like rogue in 3.5.
@StarryxNight5
8 ай бұрын
@diegocorvalan5435 But you _aren't,_ though. You aren't trading damage for utility in a utility class. You're trading _average damage_ using limited resources vs giving away even that for the _potential_ of utility. Every utility spell you prepare is one less Fear. A rogue doesn't have to cut off a finger in the morning if they want to use a lockpick that day
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
@@Toxie2725I'm sorry that just this once your wizard doesn't do everything a martial can better than a martial can and more.
@Salsmachev
Жыл бұрын
Y'know, 4e gets a bad rap, but it pretty much managed to give each tradition options for tanking, buffing, dpr, and control while also being relatively accessible and maintaining balance between its classes.
@philopharynx7910
Жыл бұрын
4e was an incredible system. A lot of 5e and P2e's best ideas came from 4e.
@Myrdraall
Жыл бұрын
4e is the only edition of D&D I'd play again. No one was just attacking. Even the fighter had diverse options.
@philopharynx7910
Жыл бұрын
@@Myrdraall Very true. There was so much customization that even characters of the same class often felt different. I have a theory on the people who like 4e. If you'll indulge my curiosity, what do you do for a living?
@Arasaka
Жыл бұрын
It grinds my gears how 4e was received. It was so good for martials and really did a lot to fix the linear fighter/quadratic wizard issue that had been plaguing D&D for decades. Sure it had it's issues, but as someone who started on Red Box/1st ed AD&D in the 80s I think it's the best iteration of the game so far. Anyway glad to see some 4e love out there. While I'm not much of a fan of PF1e (though I do prefer D&D 3.5 to previous editions), it looks like PF 2e is what I am after.
@carlostroncoso4475
Жыл бұрын
I like to say that 4e had classes with very samey mechanics that played very differently to each other, whereas pf2e has classes with very diverse mechanics that play the same.
@ZeoR95
Жыл бұрын
I do think one of the reasons people do get frustrated with Casters might have something to do with the fact that, for the majority of a character's lifespan, the most common result on a save vs their DC is the one called "Success" (for the enemy), the second-worst result. Maybe that framing has something to do with it?
@ColdNapalm42
Жыл бұрын
Only if you target their not worst save...which as a caster you should be.
@ZeoR95
Жыл бұрын
Just did a quick test comparing the Spell DC of a caster with the Moderate save of an on-level enemy, and the number they need to roll to succeed a save doesn't go above 10 until level 19 (obviously this is worse when you use a higher level enemy). That being said, Low saves are about 3 lower than moderate, so if you have targeted that, Failure is the most common result.
@Apfeljunge666
Жыл бұрын
@@ColdNapalm42 a lot of monsters still have more than 50% chance to succeed on a save against their worst save. it's a major constraint on spell selection, which is already limited by all the trash spells. find out the worst save isn't even reliable.
@ColdNapalm42
Жыл бұрын
@Apfeljunge666 define a lot. Because even at level +2 I am seeing a lot of greater than 50% of failure for worst save once you factor in a -1 to -3(depending on level)for status penalty to their saves that you should reliably have before attempting a save spell. Why would we assume martial will take advantage of tactics and teamwork for their performance benchmark but not the caster. Yes, there are some critters that has high saves where targeting saves is bad...you also have spells that target AC for those...that you can spin to your advantage with as well with once again teamwork and tactics.
@feral_orc
Жыл бұрын
@@ColdNapalm42 so you're metagaming in order to play the character properly or you've homebrewed recall knowledge? Or just guessing what the lowest save is? Because "target the lowest save" really requires you to do one of those three things first, and it's pretty important which one it is.
@Peyote-Poncho
Жыл бұрын
I feel like the problem with "Well they have to specialize :)" is that it feels hard to do. Every single caster's strength is 'versatility' which feels like a mistake. Allow some casters to have less versatility in trade for specializing in other things. If you try to specialize into a certain playstyle you'll perform poorly because you're supposed to be the 'Batman Wizard' Edit: Dang, almost like as neat as 4 traditions with each caster having full access to the entire tradition might be a bit much. Maybe some casters could have tailored spell lists (like some used to)
@TheGbitte
Жыл бұрын
In fact the specialization of every caster is to be a cheerleader, Buffing and Debuffing is the specialization of all the casters in the game, all other spells are eventual
@dezdannaselaphiel8634
Ай бұрын
@@TheGbitte Playing a side-character isn't fun.
@texteel
Жыл бұрын
You dont have to make a new class to create a blaster caster. Create a spell tag called "YOU ARE A BLASTER HARRY". Apply this tag to every spell in the game. Make a wizard tradition/arcane thesis/whatever your want to call it named "BLASTER". Give it a feature called "BLASTER". Make it do the following: "You can only sribe an arcane spell into your spellbook if it has the "YOU ARE A BLASTER HARRY" property." And then you can give it class feat or thesis feat that says "You gain a +1 to spell attack rolls and spell DCs for spells that have the "YOU ARE A BLASTER HARRY" tag".
@Coffeewings334
10 ай бұрын
Very complicated way to make kineticist.
@texteel
10 ай бұрын
@@Coffeewings334i didnt realize every kineticist has access to most blasting spells, isntead only the ones that match their elements
@Coffeewings334
10 ай бұрын
@@texteel I can’t tell if this is irony or if you actually realized this. Getting multiple elements with Kineticist is quite easy.
@texteel
10 ай бұрын
@@Coffeewings334okay, if you select all the elements on a kineticist, will you have access to all the fireballs, all the cones of cold, all the chain lightnings, and all the other blasting spells at the same time? Because that is what I am advocating for. A fullcaster that can easily have all of those the moment they become available, at the cost of not having any support, buffing and debuffing spells, and they gain +X to their DCs.
@Coffeewings334
10 ай бұрын
@@texteel You don’t get specifically what you’re asking for but what you get is… practically the same thing. You get access to ranged damage and elemental AoE abilities that you can spam infinitely, which are as strong or stronger than caster damage spells, at a higher DC.
@Koshea69
Жыл бұрын
OK, you asked, so listened to the whole thing before responding, I have so much rage at all the minority opinions being applied to all players dissatisfied with PF2 casters. In my case the kineticist is the OPPOSITE of what I want, I love the diversity, I live the mixing and matching and coming up with a list of spells for the day and how to apply them correctly. What I want is all that trouble, all that resource management to feel WORTH IT when I do. PF2 nerfs the spells themselves to the point they don't equate to being worth the trouble of spending 2 actions and a daily spell slot for the result gained. Maybe if incapacitation only meant a spell can't crit a monster that's more than 2 levels higher, not that all results shift one higher. Maybe if using the Pathfinder's most famous "Marshal good, Caster bad" rule, fighter's getting expert training in weapons, they gave sorcerers expert training in spell attack rolls and wizards expert training in wizard DC's or something like that. Just make it so there is something, anything to make it feel like when you spend a limited resource it is worth it. Right now casters seem weaker than they should because the spells just don't feel like they do enough for what they do. Your example clip, everyone marveled at the bard's spell for being so good, they are all martial players so that seems awesome to them because they don't think of resource management, they just swing and swing and swing and when they miss they swing some more and the combat makes it to another round and oh well. But if the bard casts a spell and the monster saves the bard doesn't get to try again the next round, spell slots are limited resources and also cost multiple actions and because of that SHOULD feel impactful when they do manage to succeed at landing a spell.
@mr.cauliflower3536
Жыл бұрын
I think that the brouhaha is caused by people not wanting low level casters to suck, as they lack consistency of higher level casters, which higher level casters solve through better and more varied spells, and access to lower ring spellslots, meanwhile the lower level casters have to use the damage as a band-aid.
@anomaloushumanoid
Жыл бұрын
Old school AD&D 2nd wizards were very frustrating at the lowest levels. You were extremely fragile, you will only be able to cast a very few spells before being effectively useless, and it takes a lot longer to climb out of these levels. That said, the cleric in AD&D was very strong in that version of the game, and was one of the better options at low levels.
@mr.cauliflower3536
Жыл бұрын
@@anomaloushumanoid How is that relevant? All classes should be about as strong on all levels so everyone feels useful, and having people dislike playing, so they can get a reward later is a terrible idea, especially in a system where you're kinda required to have different classes in a party, so if people don't want to do that, tough luck, everyone's gonna suck, or just one of you is gonna suck, pick your poison.
@anomaloushumanoid
Жыл бұрын
@@mr.cauliflower3536 It's relevant in that people want low level casters to not suck, because they did use to suck, really really hard.
@mr.cauliflower3536
Жыл бұрын
@@anomaloushumanoid So you think "it used to be worse" is a good excuse?
@SnarkyLesbian
Жыл бұрын
This makes me love the "Curriculum" idea for wizards even more. More breakup from that gigantic list. More specialization, more flavour, more diversity overall!
@Gleem1
Жыл бұрын
I don't really see it solving the issue of the giant spell list. You'll still get the arcane spell list and be able to learn all the spells on it with enough time and gold.
@GM_Alexandria
Жыл бұрын
I wish they'd actually done that. Make the default for casters extreme specialization, only having access to one 'curriculum'/'spell school'/etc, allow those spells to be really badass at their thing. Universal casters could exist, but they'd get spells multiple levels later to balance the versatility.
@gitrekt-gudson
Жыл бұрын
@@GM_Alexandria that sounds genuinely awful to me
@nahuel3433
Жыл бұрын
@@Gleem1 I mean that can easily be thwarted by a DM. If you have an issue with it (and are averse to actually talking to your players for some reason) you can make it so the actually usueful magical writing is really really rare and that not many if any wizards is interested in teaching
@MaximusChivus
Жыл бұрын
@@GM_Alexandria I would hate that with a passion, would never play casters.
@larstollefsen1236
Жыл бұрын
_Spellcasters_ do not need to be nerfed. _Problem spells_ need to be rebalanced.
@ComicaPaloozaStudios
Жыл бұрын
I was talking about something like this with a friend the other day, and I made a certain analogy: Casters are like a Toolbox, where you have a bunch of different tools for any given small job, while Martials are like Power Tools, more potent at their particular job they're designed for, but not as flexible in things besides that. Part of the issue as you've mentioned is that the toolbox carriers also want to stuff in some power tools, even though we both know a table saw isn't going to fit in there. A full party, then, should work like a craftsman's full set of tools, using the toolboxes for the parts that require finesse, and the power tools for when you can't do it by hand alone so easily. (And you're likely not going to use a screwdriver to bore in wood screws as much as you aren't going to do fine chisel work with a jackhammer)
@Myrdraall
Жыл бұрын
That reasoning is nothing but coping. If you put in your box nothing but damage, you should be able to dish nearly as much damage as the others, whose ressources aren't even limited. But with delayed scaling and lack of runes, you will noticeably lag behind, and there is no design philosophy where this is alright. I think that if the scaling was decently balanced, we wouldn't see a fourth of the complains we do now. In the end, casters are a toolbox that misses and gets resisted.
@lunaris6096
Жыл бұрын
@@Myrdraall Putting nothing but damage in your box does not limit your ability to put other things in your box, that is where the power budget of the casters goes, that is the design philosphy. The classes are balanced around all the things they can do, and for casters it is a way wider ranged of things. If you want to focus on damage as a caster, you can still dish out pretty good damage under the right circumstances, but it does not take away your ability to do other things on the fly. That is why the balance is that way. And now for the misses and gets resisted part, as a martial you need to be able to hit consistently and try to crit to be effective. As a caster, simply landing a spell is more than effective enough to change the entire outcome of a boss fight. I mean imagine simply landing a spell like slow and crippling the boss for the rest of the fight in such a consistent way that you could stack multiple effects like those on every boss encounter... It would suddenly stop being challenging right?
@AdamX222
Жыл бұрын
@@MyrdraallBeing able to do anything and choosing to deal damage is not the same thing as playing a class / build that by design can "only" deal damage as its primary function. (I know Fighter and martials in general can do more than that but I think most people would agree their options are much thinner compared to a spellcaster) I actually strongly agree that there should be a class which takes the thematics of a spellcaster and trades all the versatility for raw power (Kineticist comes close, but I still would like something that leans a little more towards a traditional "wand and wizard hat" type of magic). But that's not what a wizard, cleric, bard, or even sorcerer is. They have access to the entire spell list for their tradition. You may only choose to utilize a small part of it, but the simple fact is that simply having the option to pick and choose from that huge list of options has to come at an opportunity cost. And if you play a Wizard and only choose damage dealing spells, that's perfectly fine, you're living your truth, but if you complain that that doesn't compete with the Fighter for single target damage, it's... Kind of like being a Rogue and expecting to do as much damage as a Fighter in every situation. You're trying to outcompete The Class That Does Single Target Damage at Its Thing and ignoring the huge list of things your class is amazing at that Fighter can't touch. I'm not arguing there shouldn't be magic classes that can deal damage comparable to a martial class, but the current spell casters can't be that and be balanced. It's not good enough to Choose Not To Be Versatile, in order to compete with other damage dealing classes and still be balanced, you have to give up the *option* to be versatile, if that makes sense. And I think that requires that you give up having a spell list, or at least have one much smaller than the existing traditions provide, and have an available toolkit much more similar to what the Kineticist has.
@StarryxNight5
8 ай бұрын
I'm going to address Prepared Casters here, since they and Spontaneous Casters are very different in terms of versatility. The problem is that you get charged twice. It isn't that "Putting nothing in the box does not limit your ability to put other things in the box," because that's actually exactly what it does. Every single Comprehend Language, every single Create Food, every single Speak with Dead every single Knock, is one less Fear. As much as I hate Vancian magic, it actually tackles this pretty well. You literally cannot excercise the versatility implied by your class' spell list, not unless you see something right in front of you and decide to squat down for a long rest. Every single utility spell you can cast is damage you cannot deal that day. Every single utility spell you can cast in one lesn Frighten or Slow. You _actively pay_ every single time for even the _opportunity_ of casting these spells, with direct, measureable numerical loss, whether that be loss in debuffs, support, or damage. If you don't come upon any corpses to speak to, if you don't have to track someone with a divination, if you don't have to control the minds of anyone, that spell slot might as well have never been there. A Rogue doesn't have to worry about this. They don't say "Oh man guys, I picked a lock three hours ago. I'm too tired to stab this guy in the eye now." But a Wizard does! You get charged for versatility in your class' build, your spell power, _and_ your spell slots. That's the problem. Faced with this, who's going to take any of the actually interesting options? Especially a newer player? Why wouldn't they just take a bunch of damage or control spells, because those are atleast sure to come up?
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
Someone at the PF2e subreddit presents caster builds that CAN compete with a ranged martial (which I think is the apt comparison) in single-target damage, which requires that they focus heavily towards it. They can outperform them in a few fights a day, while being comparable for the remaining fights in the day. Here is a link to our exchange: www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/160m9rx/comment/jxq1aey/?context=3 This also seems to be an answer to what some people have been asking for in recent conversations: to be able to be a spell-slot spellcaster who does comparable damage to martials at the cost of non-damaging spells. They write: "That also leads into my only real disagreement with the video, where he (and the excited players he clips in the beginning) implies that casters can’t really match martial damage except in AoE situations. I don’t think that’s true. Both math and experience has shown me that they can match martial single target damage, exceed it even, and they can do so consistently throughout an adventuring day: but only for ranged martials, and only if they’re willing to commit a very hefty chunk of their class/subclass features/Feats and spell slots to doing damage. There’s no equivalent to the 5E-like “throw out a Summon, spam cantrips, and you’ll exceed a martial’s damage easily”, you have to pay a daily opportunity cost to choose to match a martial’s damage."
@pvcschwang5702
Жыл бұрын
This is more convincing to me than most of the arguments and math I've seen suggesting that casters are 'underpowered'. I believe part of the issue is that the 'buff casters' side of things can't decide what exactly that entails. I can sympathize with those who desire to be able to specialize their casting, but I usually see people who want to specialize also want to remove the downsides of their specialization with the ability to pierce immunities, etc. I understand that having enemies succeed against many of your spells is frustrating, but the underlying math of the system relies on this in many ways and as the post above shows, the effect you actually have in practice is no less than a martial. At what point are you just asking for a buff because you've decided you feel bad, rather than because you're undertuned? Everything I've seen in real play suggests that casters are fine power-wise, but not satisfaction-wise. So how do we increase player satisfaction without unbalancing the game?
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
@@pvcschwang5702For your last question, the system can't at a base RAW level. But individual tables can homebrew to address the feelsbad if they want to. The "How to Buff Casters" vid I'm planning will give some suggestions.
@arena_sniper7869
10 ай бұрын
@@pvcschwang5702 One practical solution is including more “mook” type swarms in your encounter building so casters can do more “epic” stuff.
@carlostroncoso4475
Жыл бұрын
Be a spellcaster! Cast the same dozen spells actually worth some of the ink they're written with, no matter your actual tradition or class! With a spellcaster, you can do marvelous things, like rattling a lock so it's slightly easier to open, create a floating disk that can carry two and a half yoyos, and moderatley inconvenience your foes for 6 seconds in a myriad ways! For that, you pay with a daily limit on your cool things, lower defenses, and a "master of none" tax on top of that.
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
Wait, wait. wait. With the incapacitation trait you are looking at having a small chance of moderately inconveniencing your foes so it isn't guaranteed. Be a caster! Have fun watching the incapacitation trait make even your pointless -1 not work due to critical saves!
@alfredoalves1061
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for the video. I look forward to the related videos you mentioned. As a DM and Champion (Redeemer), I disagree with a few points. I apology for the length. Despite the number of points, I do not entirely disagree with you. * The premise that casters MUST feel weaker is flawed. This implies that a caster's versatility comes be trading effectiveness. A caster must feel like they contribute less to the table. I think your intent is that they should not contribute as much raw single target damage as a fighter/other martials. Everyone at the table should feel roughly equal, not overshadowed by another class, but also not "weak". * The only issue I personally have with the power of slotted spells is that it is the only holdback where your encounter effectiveness is determined by your morning preparation and not by your encounter actions. Every innovation that Pathfinder 2e has in the magical arena from it's 3.5 roots has been strictly non-Vancian, making the Vancian remnants out of place. * As far as damaging cantrips, a spellcaster shouldn't feel that a ranged weapon is a better option than casting a cantrip. Even if you don't change the damage of the cantrips, the fact that they have range LIMITS while ranged weapons have range INCREMENTS cand cripple cantrips in an encounter. Not to mention that it is a missed opportunity for spells in general. Imaging a call lighting spell with a range increment of 30 or 60 and the volley keyword. * (Minor) The history of spellcasters in D&D isn't really relevant to where they should be relative to the other systems. If you are making the argument that something doesn't suck, making the argument that it used to suck more, doesn't prove your point. * (Minor) kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 - Third edition didn't introduce multiclassing. They made it more accessible and allowed level dipping. At least AD&D 2e had dual classing and multiclassing. If I remember correctly, dual classing was human only and better. Then there were also kits, like the Bladesinger to make an elven fighter-mage. * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 The problem you mention with Flexible Spellcasting is not unique to D&D 5e. The same issue applies with Pathfinder 2e. Unless you are a spontaneous caster, spells also scale up by the slot used. Pathfinder has the same "problem" of being able to cast hypnotic pattern multiple times per day with slots left over. The difference is that in D&D you make a short list during the morning preparations and then make the meaningful spell decisions during the encounter. If being a good Pathfinder spellcaster is being able to make effective spell choices at the start of the day, this should be a minimal difference that lowers the player skill floor for spellcasters. * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 Again, this is not that new to 5e. I don't recall if concentration checks after taking damage was in 4e, but it was in 3/3.5. And caster AC as well as resistances and immunities could get ridiculous in 3/3.5. * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 (out of context) I don't see anything wrong with wanting to do damage comparable to, or exceeding a fighter, *by expending a level appropriate spell slot* or other limited resource. The fighter is not limited to 2 cleaves per day. It still has to be weighed against the other aspects of the class and the nature of the attack with similar risk-reward profiles. Are you comparing damage against the fighter's melee option, compare a touch/5 ft range spell. Are you wanting to attack at range? Compare your ranged spell against a fighter's ranged damage output. And of course, adjust for any differences in resistances or other effects that would impact the final average damage. * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 Casters aren't the only ones that can heal. Medicine + Battle Medicine makes healing and in and out of combat available to everyone (Add in Godless Healing and Mortal Healing for even more healing). Champions have lay on hands (Healing 1-3 times about every 10 minutes!). Some skill feats make caster niche's available to non-casters (I believe being trained in Arcana allows you take a Arcane Sense that gives you Detect Magic at will. Discern Lies just gives you a +4 to sense motive checks for a 4th level spell slot. Rangers, Rogues, and Investigators will have the same total bonus at the level without expending any resources. Spellcasters can be versatile, but how much of that versatility is no longer exclusive to spellcasters? * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 This goes to an earlier point. Compare Like to Like. Ignore the movement of a melee fighter as the comparison is invalid. What is the damage of the Fighter with a bow? Or for that matter, what about comparing a Wizard with a crossbow (will be proficient in Remaster) Electric Arc against an opponent 90 feet away? * kzitem.info/news/bejne/2W-l1q6Er5mUiX4 The ability to raise the dead and some of the other sacred cows were moved to Rituals in Pathfinder 2e and, unlike D&D, ritual casting is open to all classes so, while they may be easily added to a spellcaster's repertoire, they are not spellcaster exclusive. A Fighter who can make the skill checks can Astrally Project, Teleport, Resurrect the dead, Create Undead, Create a Demiplane, create a Clone. So again, in Pathfinder 2e, how much of a spellcaster's versatility is actually still exclusive to spellcasters? * I couldn't find the timestamp again, but a one point, you mention resistance to physical damage as a problem that only martials face. Monsters have have resistance multiple damage types, though I can't speak to how common various resistances are at different levels. Resistance is an issue that all classes face, but spellcasters, I believe are more likely to face out right immunity. If you decided to build a character around Reince from The Witcher, you're hosed against a Red Dragon. Whereas, the hammer Fighter may face reduced damage against a zombie, but what outright ignores it because it is bludgeoning? Ghosts, for example, will have resistance 5 to both fire and (magic) hammers. Again thank you for your content.
@yoshi24800
Жыл бұрын
19:27 Wait a second, isn't creating pocket planes a ritual, which non-spellcasters can do?
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
I think you are right in this case, while the general point is still true
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
The classic spell to create a demiplane is a Ritual, but there are spells that create extradimensional spaces with the Extradimensional trait that have a variety of uses
@VinceTenia
Жыл бұрын
While I like the general rule of P2 spellcasting that "All spells require 2 actions to cast; unless it's a reaction" as a general rule. There is definitely space for spells that have immediate and temporary effects that only require a single action to cast; like a cold spell that super chills the air in the area causing sheathed weapons to get stuck in their scabbards and tightens leather straps and fittings due to the temperature drop, preventing characters from easily accessing stowed items normally at the ready for just a single turn. With a snap of their fingers the bard can debilitate the enemies opportunity to respond to a surprise attack launched by the party who can draw their weapons on a signal together before the spell but faster than their enemies can respond, or an arcane trickster rouge can cast this just as things seem to be getting dicey so he can flee while his opponents struggle to draw their weapons. Sadly most of the time the multi-action spell general rule hurts probably my favorite spellcaster subtype the subtle spell caster. But hurting some niche playstyles is probably better for the games health than allowing already dominant styles to become super dominant.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
I get what you're saying but the spell you describe really should not be single action.
@aaronjung5502
Жыл бұрын
The problem isn’t that casters feel weak, it’s that they feel toothless. A fighter with +3 weapon runs a full MAP ahead on accuracy, and even weaker martials are substantially more accurate on the first attack AND get a second attack, in addition to getting more critical hits because of the rule structure. The disparity in hits and damage output is wild when you factor in magic items. Even when a caster is burning spell slots (a severely limited resource), they still run only (at best) comparable to slightly lower burst damage than martials, with less accuracy driving their damage down. The irksome bit isn’t that a caster can’t keep pace with a martial on DPR, it’s that they can’t even do it for one round with their strongest, most limited abilities, when you can even hit with those abilities. Targeting saves doesn’t help: anything worth targeting with your best stuff is going to have a monsterous save, which means you get relegated to cowering behind the martials and sweeping up the things that aren’t worth their attention. Everyone has access to rituals and wands so even your versatility isn’t really unique. Remind me why people in fantasy worlds are intimidated by magic alone? Apparently casters aren’t actually dangerous unless they’re wildly more powerful than you - but then, so is a Martial.
@TheJuicyTangerine
Жыл бұрын
I think the disappointment with caster damage isn't that you can't do as much as a martial, but that you do less than a martial in many different ways. Not only do your cantrips have smaller damage die than martial attacks, your to hit will start trailing behind martials especially as they start getting runes, and your to hit is balanced around true strike existing. 5e doesn't feel bad in this regard because your bread and butter damage cantrips are d10s. This is a bit overboard in terms of power, but much much stronger than lets say Divine Lance's 1d4 to a single target as a baseline bread and butter divine spell list damage cantrip. I also wonder if the frustration with power level also has to do with party item progression. A potency rune is 35 gold while a level 1 wand is 60. The fighter is going to hit that minor power gain quite easily, and the party is going to have to pool together funds to get the wizard a single cast of sleep a day. Of course, you could get scrolls, but this is in comparison to a permanent item like a rune. In my current game, my sorceror hasn't been able to afford anything really while the martials have their item spikes already. You could say "skill issue. You could buy x y z item instead". But I find that sort of toxic in terms of you being expected to follow some very specific item progression or else you're playing the game wrong. The rune system is cool for upgrading weapons and such, but a partial result is that martials have a gold tax they pretty much have to pay at certain levels, and casters have too many mediocre choices that don't feel good at all, that you have to be getting a college degree in pathfinder items in order to get what you're expected to have.
@ColdNapalm42
Жыл бұрын
No, your to hit is not balanced around true strike. It was kinda sorta in core...but shadow signet is the real issue. You can have borked chances to crit because of this item...especially with true strike tossed in. But it is gonna be either incredibly powerful as the critter has a big difference between save DC and AC or not. But you can't have fundamental runes AND this item AND true strike. Hell this item and true strike alone is pretty bad as it is. They should have added a +1-3 to hit for the potency and +1-3 for save DC for "magic striking" runes for casters.
@darkbeetlebot
Жыл бұрын
One huge problem I find with the argument that "If you want a mechanical niche, play the class for that niche" is that I have never seen a player who just wants the mechanics of a particular class. They want a type of flavor to go with it. And oftentimes, the flavor of the class they're given for their mechanical goal does not match the flavor they want for their character. Not to mention, they may want to specialize in certain skills that the class just doesn't support very well, or they may want a primary attribute that the class doesn't use for its abilities. Say you want the kineticist playstyle but want to focus primarily on intelligence instead of constitution. You can't do that in PF2e. The problem therein is that you can't easily reconcile mechanical and narrative goals in this system. Yes, you could reflavor an archer as using magic instead of a bow and arrow if you really wanted to, but the mechanics are going to still function as if you had one which can oftentimes make no sense and contradict the flavor, causing this little phenomenon called ludonarrative dissonance: When the mechanics of the game conflict with the narrative. This isn't unique to PF2e, it's been a problem with practically every class-based game I've ever played and is the main reason I don't like them.
@SilverGhost0
Жыл бұрын
I see the limitations of each class when it comes to flavor to be inherent in class based systems, especially in pf, while that does allow multiple themes to be expressed by different classes it also means that there will be many more class/theme concepts that won't be. In your kinetist example, going int vs con makes that class less resistant making combat builds ''weaker" (I'm not saying that would be bad idea, it sounds cool, but that difference comes from how some abilities are stronger than others in different situations). The level of limitations in a system determine how many option there will be (more strict will allow more options like classes in pf, less strict might allow less class options but more freedom within those classes).
@jeronemitchell
Жыл бұрын
The Inquisitor in P1E and 5E's Warlock are excellent examples of classes chosen typically for mechanics and not flavor.
@StarryxNight5
8 ай бұрын
@@jeronemitchellDid you mean the other way around? Because I've never seen a Warlock player pick the class for anything but the flavour. I mean, excepting a one level hexblade dip, I guess
@Gleem1
Жыл бұрын
I don't feel like you really answered the comment about why the guy that wants a caster that can just do big damage without any of the other benefits of being a caster can't have it. You explain why it doesn't work currently because casters DO get access to their full spell lists and thus they need to be limited in damage. You mention that for some people that's an expectation that they get full spell lists. But you fail to answer the question of, why can't you have a Wizard that has dedicated their study so intensely into damaging spells they've become literally incapable of other types of magic. You bring up the kineticist, which is a fantastic class and the one I plan to play next, but the kineticist doesn't use spells. That's it's fundamental issue on fulfilling this class type. It can do what it does all day. What I want is a caster that is incapable of casting other types of spells other than JUST damage. Not damage with riders. Just. Damage. But it's still a caster. It still uses spell slots. Out of spells? You get mediocre cantrips the rest of the day. But the flip side is even lower level slots still do good damage because those slots literally can't do anything else. And the highest level slots do BIG BIG DAMAGE. But I still don't even want to take away from a fighter or hunter being amazing single target. I'm fine with also being fully locked to AoE such that fighting just a boss, I can still only Fireball it. My character even with the extreme power of highest spell slot can MAYBE do the same single target damage as a fighter while expending a resource the fighter isn't, but hitting 2 targets puts them ahead. Why can't this exist in pf2e? I mean that from a pure mechanics and balance perspective not a "But people expect X from wizards" perspective. What is mechanically stopping Paizo from doing this? That's a question you didn't really answer. And at this point the fantasy concept of the guy who's only good at explosions is a popular one. So why can't we have it. Kineticists don't have resources and still have other utility. They're not it.
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
"why can't you have a Wizard that has dedicated their study so intensely into damaging spells they've become literally incapable of other types of magic." Can't you just be a Sorcerer who chooses only damaging spells? Or are you talking about pairing it with stronger damage? I don't see anything inherently wrong with that - maybe what that Reddit poster says about introducing a Class Archetype is the answer? Maybe I can introduce this idea into my upcoming Homebrew video? I would be concerned, though, that if limited resources can outdamage at-will abilities from martials, then GMs will have more reason to "fill out" encounters in adventuring days to manage. It destabilizes the current encounter building system.
@Gleem1
Жыл бұрын
A sorcerer only choosing damage spells is still limited to the damage spells that currently exist that are balanced against the entire spell list. You can do it, but I'd put it's capabilities at "mediocre at best". I also noted that this supposed caster would be more balanced around AoE. It *Might* just barely do the same damage single target as a fighter with it's highest level spell slot, but it isn't explicitly necessary. It would also be odd to me that a DM would adjust encounter count in an adventuring day to account for 2-4 turns of a caster maybe doing the same damage as a fighter with their biggest resource. It doesn't seem like the most concerning thing. It's also just odd to me that I'm not even suggesting making them consistently even close to a Fighter's damage and it would be a concern? Why? I'm not pushing for better cantrips here than can be uses constantly, or even better focus spells that are recoverable between combat. You get max level slots a couple times per day, and that's it. Unless the DM decided to throw hoards of monsters at the players every combat (an area that a well-equipped caster already excels at anyway over a martial) I think this proposed caster might average out to the same total damage as a martial, but it'd be worse in some scenarios and better than others. It'd be a damage dealer with a different damage profile than martials. As for target scaling, since I recognize that itself is a very reasonable concern, spells should be balanced around their scaling. Some spells should be the most powerful at 3-4 targets, others at like 10+. Get Intel on what you're gonna be fighting so you can optimize target count and save targeting. Speaking of save targeting, at least for what I'd like to see, this would assume optimal save targeting the entire time. That assumption helps balancing out AoE damage with mixed monster types so you're never fully effective against everything, and is another single target limiter where you need to manage your spells against a single target well or drop off in damage on average. So a spell cast at a max level spell slot is maybe okayish single target and very good at AoE. Lower level slots are less effective due to slot scaling so even 2 spell levels lower you're looking at pretty okay AoE and mediocre at best single target and down it goes from there. Right now we still have that basic system in place, but the damage at any level is set very low to compensate for the other powers of casters like you mention in the video. If you just make a blaster now your best spell slot is pretty okay at best. And for a caster with finite resources, that sucks.
@Gleem1
Жыл бұрын
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I would though love it if you played around with the concept as a home brew thing. Not necessarily something fully fleshed out, but at least tinker with it and share results.
@klauskeller6380
Жыл бұрын
What do you even mean with dealing the same damage as a fighter? For example atm a rank 3 fireball at level 5 with dangerous sorcery from the sorcerer deals as much single target damage as a fighter using a maul with power attack.
@neatobandito1748
Жыл бұрын
Ronald, I respect you as a content creator for everything you've done for the Pathfinder community, but I hate this idea that you and the rest of the Pathfinder community built and perpetuate that all caster players who complain about anything are whiny little children who want to be gods just like in 5e. It shuts off any discussion before it even starts, and it does nothing except foster resentment between people who have different playstyles, and invalidate any and all flaws that casters have because "if you want to be a god, go back to 5e". I don't want to be a god. I actually enjoy buffing my allies, supporting my team, and debuffing my enemies. I play support in almost every game I play because I enjoy the playstyle. My complaints aren't because I want to be the center of attention, I just want my debuff spells to actually connect more than 40% of the time. I want Automatic Bonus Progression to give bonuses to casters as well as martials so that if the GM decides not to give out money, the casters aren't left in the dust without any staves, scrolls, or wands. I want Bon Mot, Recall knowledge, and True Strike to not be entirely mandatory for every caster ever. I want the Incapacitation trait to not be so all or nothing that it can make spells entirely useless or broken depending on your level. I want level 1 caster play to not be the most mind numbing experience I've had in my entire life. I want the occult spell list to have a few more spells that target reflex, and for the primal spell list to have more than a single spell that target's will, that way "just use recall knowledge and target their lowest save" would be actually possible. But mostly I just want to be able to talk about this without being shut down by somebody calling me a spoiled child when I mention any of this. I'm sorry for the wall of text, I'm just very tired of all of this. Have a good day.
@nashwise4everGM
Жыл бұрын
As a GM in my homebrew game I buff my caster player by giving them spell potency rune (bonus to attack), spellstrike rune (striking rune but for caster) and spell persistent rune (bonus to spell saves) and it did improve the game for my caster player. It is easy to buff caster but it's really hard to house rule nerf caster as a GM as player animosity is on you not the system. I learn this the hard way back when I was GMing for 5e. As a GM I'm glad that Paizo took that animosity brunt instead of me, while I can be cool parent giving cool stuff for my players.
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
Unfortunately, they have to maintain the "casters who complain are cry babies" mantra because, otherwise, they have to confront the very real flaws in the system.
@herogamer555
Жыл бұрын
I've never played 5E and I don't give a shit how they do casters. Whenever caster strength gets defended the argument is always based around cherrypicking from a list of a couple dozen extremely over powered (and often very high level to the point that most players will never see those in their games) spells and using those as an argument for why casters are fine such as your example using Maze. It also assumes caster players always have the perfect spells prepared (maybe I missed the page in the CRB where they teach you to predict the future). I want to be able to utilize my whole spell list and not just the ones that still work even on a successful save. Casters may be "balanced" (though I would disagree on this), but they lost a lot of fun and dismissing players that want casters to feel good as just selfish or entitled isn't helpful to actually improving the game. There's also the problem that because most spells are at least 2 actions, casters don't get to utilize the 3 action economy and most of their turns are simply move > cast a spell with very little actual options.
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
The goal of Pathfinder 2E is mathematical balance, not fun. Casters are there to provide buffs to melees and provide utility spells out of combat. In boss fights, they are supposed to darn martials socks until they get access, apparently, to Maze and then cast it as it is the spell used to justify all caster nerfs.
@Zakon673
Жыл бұрын
I don't know if you'll recognize or even read this, but as someone who gave feedback on reddit and youtube urging you not to title this video how you originally were going to, I thank you for this well-nuanced and understanding overview of the grievances of caster players like the ones in my play group. For us, it's the caster's inability to interact with the 3-action economy fully as well as being unable to roll their own knowledge checks, combined with inability to specialize. I'm making efforts to help with this by making cantrips which do very little damage but have a casting time of 1 action. Sadly I don't know if it will help, though, as most of my group seems uninterested in ever playing a caster when martials are so dynamic and exciting in PF2e. Even if casters get powerful spells later such as Maze, it doesn't feel good to play someone who gets so little ability to act on their turn and applies milquetoast effects like -1 to AC, while across from them their martial friends are dealing insane damage with crits which their spells may not even have enabled because they simply rolled a 20. One of my players in particular who is not a power gamer in any sense of the word has been more frustrated than I've ever seen her with a class in a TTRPG because her turns aren't exciting and she can't make the specialist caster she wants to make.
@queenannsrevenge100
Жыл бұрын
22:54 - Here’s what I don’t understand - in the Maze example, if you had been facing, say an ancient blue dragon (Creature 18) the dragon has a +31 perception and a level 15 wizard has a spell dc 36 - how would the dragon not escape that spell with a critical success 25% of the time?
@lawrl777
Жыл бұрын
the maze spell completely shuts down any creature for at least 1 round, usually more, which is huge even if they crit their first roll to get out
@lunaris6096
Жыл бұрын
A PL+3 enemy is usually once in a while. It is literally listed as a final boss encounter for a reason. Using a single highest level slot to allow your party to potentially have a turn or two to reposition, buff against the element of their breath weapon defensively, ready actions, heal is huge. Even if the dragon critically succeeds, you are still costing them an action as a worst case scenerio, and if they do not crit succeed on turn 1, you are giving your team a huge window of time to breathe.
@neurolancer81
Жыл бұрын
That statement about the 9000 IQ player hits home for me and it is my problem with casting. The argument always is you need to target the weakest save, how do you know what that is? RK doesn’t tell you that. You have to use meta knowledge to get it, which is immersion breaking. The argument always is, you have a Swiss Army knife but no I don’t. I either have the knife, or the file or the scissors and on top of that I have to guess which of these I will need on the day. All of you players with the perfect GMs telescoping this knowledge, good for you, that’s not what most players have.
@devinbyrnes8058
Жыл бұрын
LIES!!!! Meta gaming not required. All you need to do to disco er a creatures lowest save is succeed on a knowledge check. It can be you, or anyone else in your party who then communicate icates it to you. Failure to use a main feature of game design is not the Editions' fault.
@aaronjung5502
Жыл бұрын
@devinbyrnes8058 RAW I’m pretty sure there isn’t anything directly saying you get to know a creature’s saves off of Recall Knowledge. It may be implied but it’s not directly said to my knowlege. If I’m wrong please link me the source.
@neurolancer81
Жыл бұрын
@@devinbyrnes8058 RAW knowledge checks don not give you save information. It gives you colloquial info like a Troll is weak to fire and acid. A crit success gives you some more info but RAW you don’t get saves. The caster has to use their turns casting cantrips to figure out which one hit on what roll on the dice .
@devinbyrnes8058
Жыл бұрын
@@neurolancer81 I definitely think “something subtler” on a crit could include saves per RAW. These creatures are known to be clumsy = target reflex.
@neurolancer81
Жыл бұрын
@@devinbyrnes8058 I agree that this is one interpretation but the GMs I’ve had so not use this interpretation. Plus; most of these “white room” analyses which show casters doing ok also expect you to know the middle save because the spells lists don’t always have the spells which target the lowest save and good luck ever getting that info without using spells slots or spending turns throwing out cantrips. My major complaint is that it takes a lot of in game time and effort on top of game mastery to be on par with the martials. So, again comes back to fact that Paizo, in avoiding the 9000 IQ player from breaking the system, have made the barrier to entry for spell casting classes much higher than it was needed.
@Trithis2077
Жыл бұрын
I think an interesting concept for a caster class that would satisfy that person who wanted a caster that is highly specific to damage would be a class that gets exclusively focus spells. I'm not sure of the best way to balance it off hand, but I imagine it could be something where each level they can choose between some number of focus spells to get access to. This would eliminate the issue of having access to the full spell list while also retaining the vibe of a traditional caster.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
Although it is not exactly as you describe, I think philosophically psychic fills that niche with its focus cantrips.
@exomancer3632
Жыл бұрын
The eternal problem with the mage is its two conflicting fantasies: The Generalist, and the Specialist. Pf2e leans into the Generalist. What many want is a way to keep the magical flavor, and sacrifice the generalist nature of the class to be a specialist. And I mean more than just a blasting specialist. Perhaps I want to play an enchanter, who zeros in on mind manipulation. The enchantment wizard promises that fantasy, and does not deliver. The enchantment wizard is just a universalist who always happens to have some enchantment on hand. Imagine giving the wizard huge buffs to their school, but restricting them only to the spell slots granted by their school. Maybe that's a bad idea, but it's illustrative of a common desire. Elemental specialists are also a common trope, but Kineticist does a mostly fine job at that. Really only fails if you want a Cryomancer.
@exomancer3632
Жыл бұрын
I'll also add that I don't think any kind of buffing specialist really needs to be made in this way. Buffing your allies is already perfect on casters as is, if not a bit overtuned. If such a specialist was to be made buffing spells would probably need to be nerfed.
@robinheinemann1740
Жыл бұрын
@@exomancer3632as a support caster Main I can tell you playing pure support caster in pathfinder 2e feels and plays terrible.
@loap4634
Жыл бұрын
I think PF2e lend itself into Specialist sort of game, Class ttrpg can't really be both Generalist and Specialist at the same time without feeling like the other one is better.
@wrathisme4693
11 ай бұрын
*I think the big thing your missing is that regardless of how "tight" the math is, if something feels bad then the math doesn't matter.* You can't say that they SHOULD feel bad because that's balanced because it feeling bad is a problem.
@ivanbackfromthecardshop8093
11 ай бұрын
The points not missed the point was that its balanced for the sake of other classes as well. If you arent careful with the balance than your just sacrficing martials classes enjoyment which fixes nothing it just shifts the burden over. He spends the video trying help people acknowledge their strength and talking about how these changes might actually open up the space to make those hyper specialized classes people want
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
The game is telling you that if you want to do what class Y does, you should play class Y. "I wanna do what a ranger does, but as a wizard", makes the ranger obsolete.
@dmitrii710
Жыл бұрын
In my opinion, casters should have more spell slots and spells prepared to cast, like it in DnD. Because current spell slit system in PF really takes that flexibility you were talking about away. In my experience its hard to know what kind of spell can really help me, because the situation in game can change drastically and I won't have any spells to react on.this changes. At this moment I feel like I suck in combat (less single target damage, less to hit chance, enemies always have "success" on their saves) and suck out of it, because spell slots are too precious to waste them on any kind of small utility stuff. Especially spell slots feels like a problem when after a big battle martials can just refocus and patch themselves with medicine and go on, but you have no slots and became really useless
@ericcontreras3966
9 ай бұрын
Yup I agree with everything you just said.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
Are you targeting the right defenses? Are you using spells that are powerful even when the enemy succeeds? Are you using focus spells?
@StarryxNight5
7 ай бұрын
@Dharengo What I hate about the "Are you targetting the right defenses" thing is that the argument only works when you're level 10 and you have a half million spellslots to work with. At level 5, you have three slots at three levels, for most classes. Some of them get four. So, assuming the outlier, you have 16 slots in total. Okay. Great. Wonderful. There are three saves in the game. That's five spells of each save, plus one extra. Except not all spells are equal, are they. Not all saves are equal. When you're running through a dungeon, you might find a lot of the same monster, which means you'll use the spells with the same save more often. Which means you'll run out of those five spells _much_ more quickly than you'd expect, just seeing the number. Once they run out? Well, now you're off targetting secondary saves. Maybe even with a spell that's worse on a failure than your other one, because _not all spells are equal._ But remember. This isn't leaving _any_ room for the supposed versatility of a prepared caster. Because vancian magic, as much as I hate it, does a great job at making sure casters don't have a spell for every situation. Because for every situation you plan for, that's one less Fear. One less Fireball. One less spell that you _know_ will be useful, because this is a game built primarily around combat. You either have to choose to have the _potential_ of out of combat utility, or you have to choose the semi-guarantee of using your spells in combat.
@SwordsmanOrion
Жыл бұрын
Full disclosure, I am a refugee from 5e and I played full casters. I have been playing Pathfinder 2e for months now as a Bard. We are only level 6, so I don't know what high level bard play is like, but I have found myself feeling less powerful than I did at the same level in 5e. The lower damage I totally understand and I agree with. But my favorite thing to do in 5e wasn't damage, it was battlefield control, and (at least at level 6 and under so far) I have felt pretty awful so far in pathfinder. Almost all of these kinds of spells require that the enemy critically fail a saving throw, which has never happened for me yet. So I stopped wasting spell slots on that kind of spell and it has bummed me out a lot. On the other hand, buffing feels so much better in Pathfinder than 5e, so I like that aspect a lot and have been trying to focus on what I can do as a Pathfinder bard, rather than what I can't. I just have to get used to the fact that I can't end encounters with one cast of Hypnotic Pattern anymore. I guess my real complaint is that I'll never reach that level of power if I always have to rely on the enemy not just failing a saving throw, but critically failing a saving throw, that part feels bad and is super common for just about every control spell I have access to at level 6.
@Dream146
Жыл бұрын
Spoiler alert, your spells will basically never land and this problem gets worse not better as you level. So I guess either double down on the support caster or change to a martial class since they're all that's worth playing in pf2e
@Alex-cq1zr
Жыл бұрын
@@Dream146seems like a bad take, as pf2e spellcasters are still decently strong
@Alex-cq1zr
Жыл бұрын
Well, that's how it should be ig. Like, is it fair if one spell just ends the whole fight? So, control and such must be more limited. Effective if used corrextly, but not OP
@SwordsmanOrion
Жыл бұрын
@Alex-cq1zr I get what you are saying, control spells are very powerful in 5e. However, they are so weak and limited in Pathfinder that it doesn't feel worth the spell slot to ever cast. I'm not going to rely on an enemy critically failing a save, I'll just use a different kind of spell. Is that how they should be balanced? And having a regular failed save usually result in barely a mild inconvenience for a single round just feels way too weak.
@Zerromi
Жыл бұрын
Many of the hallmark control spells work to a limited extent on a success, though? Like, the poster child for "casters aren't weak, you're just thinking about them incorrectly" - Slow - is *still* Slowed 1 for a round on a successful save from the enemy. Ditto goes for other core lockdown tools like Fear, Curse of Lost Time, Synesthesia, etc.
@UrbanVerse69
Жыл бұрын
All that utility and battlefield control doesn't mean anything if the monsters are succeeding on their saves more often than they fail. When many of the encounters I've come across during my time as a player have enemies that can Succeed rolling a five or better, it usually means I'm lucky to just get that and not a Crit Success. Attack the weak save, you say? Well, several enemies have had strong and weak saves that were within two points of one another, so not much of an improvement in my odds. I generally try to buff the party in these situations, though several encounters have come down to one or two round affairs due to the magus landing Crits on his spellstrikes, or even his regular attacks, so I usually feel like I've wasted my spell slots on one fight buffs. Now, I admit, it may just be the fact that I'm playing in Age of Ashes (notoriously overtuned as I understand it), and a majority of the encounters feel like they're meant to be on the high end of the difficulty scale, but my experience as a caster has certainly not been feeling that great. We are also only three players, using dual-class and free archetypes, so that's definitely a factor there too (i'm playing a sorcerer/summoner), since we're missing at least three actions a turn on our side and another body in the mix. I guess I'd just like a little more consistency in getting off a spell effect so that I actually feel like I'm contributing something useful. The martials (magus/fighter and cleric/champion) land their hits much more often than my spells Succeed, often because my pet gets up there for flanking and knockdown. Their accuracy is probably 50% or better, which feels normal for me, but my spells actually getting a regular Failure seems closer to maybe 33% or less. I can probably count on one hand the number of Crit Fails I've actually seen on my spells. This was VERY noticeable around levels 5 to 7, when the martials got their melee improvements while I was waiting to get my spellcasting improvement. Them getting to add magical bonuses to their to-hit rolls is another thing martials get that casters don't; at least I'm not aware of any items that improve either spell attack bonus or save DC. I feel like most of my problems with the feel of playing a caster would likely be fixed with improved consistency on enemies getting a Fail on a save, closer to what the martials are experiencing with their successful attacks. Not fishing for Crits or anything here, just a regular fail will do. Maybe in a game where the encounters are always feeling so dangerous, I might not even be having this issue. On the other side of the screen, as a DM in my Abomination Vaults game, the encounters feel a lot more balanced and fun compared the the AoA game. The party's casters seem to have a much more reliable ratio of success and failure on their spells against the enemies they're facing. Some fights have been close calls, there have been a couple of PC deaths, but I've not heard the same complaints I've voiced about my experience from my players (aside from the one who has that attitude where all casters suck because they're not as powerful as they are in 5e or older editions, and he "proved" it by playing horribly built characters that were mostly ineffective and useless due to poor tactics and decisions, and thus became the two PC deaths the group has had thus far).
@nkozi
Жыл бұрын
It's interesting to see a problem that 4e very definitely solved come back in both its child and its nephew.
@certifiedfunnyguy
Жыл бұрын
I am playing a cloistered cleric in a campaign as my first caster. We are all pretty new to the system and we have all agreed that the fear spell is easily our strongest party member.
@DakonBlackblade2
Жыл бұрын
When you get to higher LVs and can get the fear spell that hits then entire enemy team at once it gets even better.
@shadieeryaqati4514
Жыл бұрын
At this point I just want my spells to hit, man. I’m fine with some of the nerfing. I just want my spells to fucking hit and have full effect (simply ‘fail on save’, I don’t expect crit fails 24/7). A -1 to enemies, caused by my spells or whatever, isn’t going to do much. I just want my stuff to land, man. Just give me slightly better DCs and better spell attack roll bonuses. That’s all I want at this point. :/ I just want my spells to actually do something and I want to feel like I’m actually useful or impactful with my spells.
@loap4634
Жыл бұрын
You could impact thing outside combat, and caster have impact, that -1 could lead to a hit or crit, I mainly use caster and I find them to be far more useful in term of other thing outside combat, but also inside combat caster have a lot of thing they can do more than most martial.
@queenannsrevenge100
Жыл бұрын
Even the debuffs are cool - IF the monsters don’t need to Crit fail to get that -1.
@lotrotk375
Жыл бұрын
For the 3rd time: I liked the part where Ronald talks about class specializations
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
(To others, "the 3rd time" is because this video has withstood two re-uploads!)
@rabidelfman
Жыл бұрын
I'm still fairly early in this video, but overall, I think casters are fine *as a class type.* The issue lies with monster/NPC save scaling compared to casters and caster scaling. Monster/NPC saves are out of control, as they scale faster and higher than the player's own Class DC can ever be. For the most part, in order for a monster/NPC to save against your spell, especially at higher levels, they just need to not roll a 1 or a 2 which is... just about the least fun thing on the planet. I play a bard in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, we did a short campaign to level from 1-12 to get a feel for our classes before starting. Everything was fine, for the most part, but monsters/NPCs were saving against me more often than not. Okay, maybe it'll get better when we hit higher levels. Nope - not a chance. I can count, on one hand, how many times an enemy has failed a save against me, even after using Combat Reading to target the weakest save AND having a homebrew relic to inflict Clumsy 2, Enfeebled 2, or Stupefied 2 after a successful combat reading. Four times. Four. Times. We're level 16 now, and only four times an enemy has failed a save against me. I have also only hit with an Attack Roll spell *six times* - four of those times were because I was rolling hot and rolled above a 17. This. Is. Not. Fun. Nor is it good design, imo. It's to the point where all I do is lingering comp > inspire courage, combat reading > announce what I find. I don't find it worth it *at all* to expend spell slots for something that will just be saved against, do five damage, and have a rider effect that is near worthless. I just came into a Shadow Signet... and it is completely awful to rely on an item just to be able to hit an attack roll. "But rabidelfman, casters have aoe! You should be using your aoe!" - You are correct, but if your martials just clutter the area... most aoes hit all creatures in an area. Martials don't like being nuked by one of their own, from my experience. Then, when I take the time, actions, and multiple turns, to position myself to be able to do a cone of some kind... it's very... whelming. I am normally whelmed. Either casters need a way to have their Class DCs buffed like with potency runes, or NPC saves need to come down and scale better to provide a better experience. My GM refuses to nerf or buff anything, so I've requested a change of class when we get to the next book. Playing a caster is just not fun because the game is literally built to be anti-caster. I don't want to be a god, I don't want to have a single spell decide an encounter, I just want to feel like I'm actually doing *something* instead of just taking up space and chasing people around with inspire courage.
@kenkoopa7903
Жыл бұрын
Yea, the system has kinda scared away my consistent PF group from playing casters, and the options each caster gets with their chassis and feats just aren't super appealing to me, which is a shame! I want casters to have that sense of viability that the martials now have, and I also wonder on more flavorful options that hopefully the Remaster will provide to their class feats and features.
@nyx7664
Жыл бұрын
This EXACTLY! What makes it even more miserable is that to shift the balance in your favor as a caster you have to spend a bunch of time inflicting debuffs on enemies which themselves require the enemy to fail their saves at, just to have about a 50/50 shot at actually having the enemies fail the save (Which, at the point you may as well have just yolo'd the spell you were going to cast originally), whereas all a martial needs to do to inflict a -2 to AC is just Flank... The disparity is insane
@rabidelfman
Жыл бұрын
@@nyx7664 50/50 shot? Man, I'd kill for a 50/50 shot at landing a save or suck. I don't want to be the best at something, I just want to feel like I'm making at least somewhat of a difference and to have fun while doing it. I would also like there to be ways for martials to help casters land stuff, which outside of Bon Mot, I can't think of anything martials can do. I would kill for something like the Grabbed, Prone, Immobilized, or any other condition that reduces someone's ability to move, imparted something like a -2 to reflex saves... or corrosive acids imparting -2 to fortitude saves because it's eating away at your armor/skin, or non-lethal attacks inflicting Stupefied because they're bonking them in the head. Little things like this could go a long, long way to making casters actually feel good.
@loap4634
Жыл бұрын
What does "doing something" mean to you?
@Wizard_Level_1
Жыл бұрын
I think the game assumes players are debuffing enemies though with demoralize, bon mot, poisons, many bombs that cause debuffs like Skunk Bomb etc. There are a ton of tools to reduce enemy saves. Many players don't use those tools, don't understand them, or don't realize they should be using those tools. If Pathfinder fails in someway it's that it hasn't taught players the value of debuffs. I think the game also assumes that players are using recall knowledge to sus out low saves and target those. The 3 action economy isn't just for attacking, moving, and casting spells. There are a plethora of actions that help a character or other characters to land their shit.
@Zedrinbot
Жыл бұрын
The ability for casters to target multiple defenses has always been the biggest justification to me for them not being as accurate or not getting item bonuses to hit. The only thing conflicting with this was how some casting traditions didn't have access to very good spells to target a lot of options; being able to hypothetically target multiple defenses is a moot point if you don't have anything that actually can do so. Divine's only attack cantrip was alignment based and thus useless on neutral creatures; beyond that they had Daze, which scales incredibly slowly. But, the remaster is changing that up with how spirit damage works and with the new needle darts spell, and there's also the focus spell changes. I will say that sometimes it's still kinda difficult still to envision an 'evil' cleric who wants to hurt people, since most of your spells are more defensive, but you also get those free casts of Harm which are getting boosted even further.
@JoeyDCote
Жыл бұрын
"Higher level creatures had 90% or 100% spell resistance". True, but a creature's spell resistance was reduced by 5% for each caster level over 11. So a 16th level wizard would be reducing that resistance by 25%. Conversely, each level below 11th increased the creature's spell resistance by 5%. And you have a good point in that creature's saving throws at high levels often blanked character's spells, especially if the moster was equiped with something like a cloak or a ring of protection.
@Arnsteel634
Жыл бұрын
Not in 2E
@coldstream11
11 ай бұрын
No it wasn’t.
@Sombre_gd
Жыл бұрын
I think the biggest problem with casters in D20 type TTRPGs is that they are really underpowered at low levels and very overpowered at high levels. Paizo just nerfed low-level casters even more, which angered people.
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
That's a problem with other systems that paizo managed to pretty much fix. Casters have dominatingly many and powerful spells at high levels, but are kept in check at actually needing their still-limited high level slots for big moves while enemies throw out similar stuff. At low levels, spells are weaker and less plentiful - but especially at very low levels, cantrips hit really hard.
@feral_orc
Жыл бұрын
my personal problem with this is that while their spells are more balanced 1-20, the low level spells become useless much faster. If spells could auto heighten at certain levels like kineticist impulses and be locked to their spell slot rank to cast it would be great imo. Cantrips should never be a better option than a full on spell. Safer? Sure. Better? No.
@michaelmurphy748
Жыл бұрын
I will use Wizard for my specific example of weakness. In my playing of Pathfinder, I never know what creatures I am going to be facing so I cannot forearm myself with good spells. I never know if we will be facing a goblin or a fire Memphite. By the background, Wizards are suppose to be the learned class, spending years in study however, my wizards never seem to pass a recall knowledge check to even Identify the creature we are facing (wasting an action). A wizard who has spent years studying typically has a smaller chance of ID'ing a Ghoul then a cleric does. The game is SO worried about balance that it loses the flavor of the specific class. Besides, in almost all games of Pathfinder I have played in, the game typically goes Fight, rest, Fight, rest, Fight, sleep. Next day, rinse and repeat. Unless the players force role-playing, very little role-play happens. Pathfinder needs to find a way to reward role-playing since all games i have played in the only way to get EX is to kill things.
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
I agree. The issue with Pathfinder 2E is the it is SO invested in balance it forgot that the game is supposed to be fun.
@Capyman-cn9mf
Жыл бұрын
My only problem with PF2e casters is the Incapacitation trait. I don't like that I need to constantly think about what level enemy I am facing, or that some of my coolest spells are almost impossible to pull off in a critical situation. The trait should stay, but its applied too liberally and it should apply to level 3 difference instead of 2.
@xylemicarious
Жыл бұрын
I'd probably homebrew incapacitation a bit myself (something like a +2 status bonus/level above)... But one thing that makes it feel a bit better is throwing some lower level enemies at the party sometimes and having THEIR spells whiff on the PCs. Remind the PCs that it works both ways.
@elifia
Жыл бұрын
Counteract checks have the same problem. It's practically impossible to counteract the effects of something that's higher level than you, because you need a critical success, which means you need a natural 20. If the level difference is too big then even a critical success isn't enough. And just about every spell that tries to remove conditions or prevent you from being affected by stuff uses counteract checks.
@malkyn9998
Жыл бұрын
@@elifia This is incorrect. On a regular success, you dispel effects 1 rank higher. Even on a failure you'll dispel effects one level lower. If the GM is always treating every effect the party comes across as a rank equal to 1/2 the creature's level, that's going to be steep and always need a spell slot from highest level to succeed. Suggestion is to have GMs treat magical effects as the minimum level needed to achieve their effect - a caster creating a dungeon isn't going to spend a 6th level slot on Darkness when the 4th level effect is the big utility/trap upgrade. Thus a PC caster that comes across a 4th rank darkness spell that can cast 5th rank spells suddenly has an interesting choice - gamble with a 3rd rank dispel magic or go for the almost-sure thing with a 5th rank dispel magic.
@elifia
Жыл бұрын
@@malkyn9998 That assumes that you can figure out what rank the effect is. And far from all effects are spells, non-spell effects are indeed always half level. It'd really suck to gamble that rank 3 dispel magic only for the effect to actually be rank 5, so you never stood a real chance. And if you only have spell slots up to rank 5 and then run into a rank 7 effect, you're just fucked.
@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Жыл бұрын
I think there needs to be a way officially to ascertain the likely level of a creature myself
@mathieulefo6658
Жыл бұрын
I think the "barrier of entry" discussion is a very good one. We had to take time in my group to explain all the ways a caster can be good and all the impact it has, where we never have to do this for martial characters. Yes, every +1 matters, but big numbers feel more rewarding. Another thing I find doesn't help is in the way spell effectiveness is calculated. A caster using a spell will usually not roll themselves but have the monsters roll a defense check. I think it removes some of the basic fun of rolling dices that is so core in this game. I'm actually thinking about swapping those rolls, and have the caster roll agains't enemy defense in my game.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
Remember that if you help make big numbers happen, then those big numbers are because of you.
@Justin-lr6yf
Ай бұрын
@@Dharengo If you give a plus 1, there is a pretty low chance big numbers happen, and if they do, they probably were not because of you, and when they are, you probably won't know. This is what Pathfinder seems like to me coming from dnd wizard. Welp, time to play it anyway because its fucking cool, I now have an excuse to powergame to my hearts content and it probably won't ever break anything balance wise :D.
@Dharengo
Ай бұрын
@@Justin-lr6yf You usually don't spend a lot of resources to give one person a +1 one time. A spell usually either gives that +1 to a lot of people, or to a person or people within a certain area for many turns in a row. Also remember that this stacks with other modifiers, such as off-guard and frightened. So every time a miss becomes a hit, or a hit becomes a crit, or the inverse, you contributed to that. It cannot be understated what a difference it makes. Then there's all the spells that take actions and opportunities away from enemies (ones that stun, slow or move enemies), or give more to allies (such as letting them move more or attack more often). Also spells usually do something even on a regular fail. Such as Fear still inflicting Frightened when the target successfully saves. But yes, Pathfinder does allow for optimizing and power gaming without breaking the game.
@jimbob929
Жыл бұрын
Decent video overall, even if the thumbnail is a bit inflammatory. My personal hope is we see a caster class archetype that severely limits the spell list to only blast spells but strengthens them in exchange. I probably wouldn't play it as I like the "god wizard" playstyle but it would make the game more fun and approachable for a lot of people without disrupting balance. I think the main thing left unaddressed is the disparity between low and high level casters. The spell slot progression was grandfathered in from previous editions and seems horribly designed, with barely any slots being available at the lowest levels and far too many to reasonably cast in a day at the highest levels. This severely limits your resources as well as your versatility at low levels. You need to make every spell count so the incentive is to prioritize spells that are as consistently useful as possible such as Heal, Magic Weapon, and Magic Missile. The biggest recurring feeling I had multiple times when playing a low level wizard was "I wish I prepared Magic Missile/Magic Weapon more times instead of X spell that isn't useful in this situation" while being relegated to Electric Arcing every turn. Which wasn't a great feeling as I don't consider these spells to be all that interesting or fun, but they sure as hell felt stronger than the alternatives. I suppose this could be a matter of preference, as I've seen people say they like the old school style of casters starting out very weak but growing exponentially in strength, but I want to have fun from 1-20 and right now the low level slog kills my fun. I'll play a caster in any campaign that starts at at least level 5 but otherwise I avoid them. This might not seem like a big issue because 1-4 is only 20% of the level progression but the vast majority of play happens in this level range, Mark Seifter seemed to recall it being 75% of play happening at level 5 or lower. I honestly think that a lot of this discourse comes from people trying out casters at low levels and coming away justifiably dissatisfied.
@porgy29
Жыл бұрын
Good video, but I want to share one occasional issue with the more tool-box style of casters (which is what P2E promotes); they are much more dependent on your GM and their encounter design. I've run into this issue a few times (with different systems) but the main one was in Pathfinder 1st edition. I built a caster (a Shaman) who would regularly prepare a range of different utility spells, but it never felt like I could "guess right" and often a large chunk of my spell list just being blank. The main concern is that if a GM just throws a single big boss monster with a lot of HP at you, a bunch of spells are less useful or actively harmful. AOE will hit your melee characters (and the damage might be worse than what they are doing), lots of powerful debuffs/save vs suck spells have a very small chance of working (fear, blind/deafness, hold person, ext), crowd control effects/movement restrictions aren't really relevant once people have engaged (and can limit the mobility of your party), and if there is only one target with a single set of weaknesses or resistances the damage spells you prepared might not line up well. In the end I often just used my unlimited actions (Hex, Misfortune, and Chant which were quite good) and prepared more healing since that is always going to be useful outside of combat, but it was rather boring and I felt underutilized. For casters to have power the GM's need to give them some ability to be able to predict what sorts of encounters they might face during the day (although not perfect knowledge) and they should plan their encounters with that range of effects in mind. However, if you have a newer GM that is a lot more effort and the result can often be just a big damage sponge that hits hard and maybe has some abilities or a cool special attack. It does seem like by default that is a bit less of an issue in P2E, but it is still definitely a concern.
@JawaBob
Жыл бұрын
My main takeaway is that PF2E spellcasters are not underpowered but they are not in line with the player fantasy and expectations. Which I very much agree and would love to see more focused options over more grab-bag generalist casters. Clerics in particular need some love as they are seen as the primary support option that attracts players. Only to find them underwhelming in practice with some of the worst class feats out there.
@LordRenegrade
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, some of the cleric stuff feels very feat-tax-ish. I'm looking at you, Communal Healing and Improved Communal Healing!
@JawaBob
Жыл бұрын
@LordRenegrade Yeah, my beef with the existing casters is how many "trap" feats and options there are that are just objectively bad but not always in a way a new player would catch at first glance. After you boil them way, you're left with startlingly few options. Good forbid you pick a dud or something for flavor. Then it's just "sucks to suck" for the rest of the campaign.
@Myrdraall
Жыл бұрын
The "player fantasy and expectations" is a misrepresentation. Yeah, some people come from 5e and expect to obliterate cities. But truth is caster scaling is broken and come high level you can easily waste half your spell slots to crit saves in a fight. Not only are their ressources quite limited, their proficiency scales more slowly AND they don't have access to runes. Their attack rolls will be like 6 below a fighter of the same level. It gets VERY noticeable. Caster's don't want to outperform martials, they just don't want to feel like dead weight.
@JawaBob
Жыл бұрын
@Myrdraall what I mean by player expectations is not related to 5e. It's relating to what he says in the video how pathfinder says "you can make any character you want" but relegates casters to being generalists because their strength is in flexibility. A lot of people (at least me) come to casters because they have a fun theme they want to try like "I only want to use fire spells" or "I want to be a holy necromancer." But which each level they get farther from that vision as they pick up more necessary utility features. Player desire is just counter to the design for some of us.
@JawaBob
Жыл бұрын
@Myrdraall I can't comment much on the high level power gap, but it sounds awful 😕 I've just stopped comparing any class to fighter, there in a league of their own.
@HaibaneKuu
Жыл бұрын
I do feel that the Maze example from the beginning feels fairly disingenuous. It's a 8th rank spell, so you won't get to use it until level 15. How common are spells like that in PF2e? Right now I'm not trying to say that there's no powerful and/or impactful spells prior to it, but how many spells are actually going to have an effect with no save like Maze? "Is this what like to play a spellcaster" implies that it's the baseline of what they are, but is it really?
@WolfBoy-om6dw
Жыл бұрын
Agreed
@johnlongeway1037
2 ай бұрын
They always use Maze as an example because it is the rare powerful spell. It is in NO way a good example of most of the spells in Pathfinder 2E, which have saves that are fairly easily made resulting in generally a 1 round debuff during normal combats and complete resistance during boss fights.
@tilemacro
Жыл бұрын
Yea, I remember the old days of the second edition. Wizard casting spell 90% spell resisted. Lost concentration whenever something attacked him. Eventually landing a fireball for 20 damage. I also remember our warrior, with triple specialization dishing out 130hp of damage in a single round. We were all trying to play the game, mostly we ran after the warrior and cleaned up the leftovers. I remember getting hit by two meteor showers for 25 damage. No the game was not balanced then. You need to look even further back in the first edition D&D Rules encyclopedia.
@Arnsteel634
Жыл бұрын
That is My 2E experience in most games. The effective spells were to buff imho.
@manawa3832
11 ай бұрын
reaching into your components pouch. its empty.. martials are the biggest cry babies in the world and it is amazing to me that the narrative they push is no actually spellcaster are the crybabies who always get their way. upside down world
@HaibaneKuu
Жыл бұрын
Waaait a minute with the cantrip point. Sure, Warlock gets to cast powerful cantrips, but that's kinda their thing cause they only have 2 spell slots (albeit short rest ones) for majority of their career. Without 2 level dip into warlock (which will by the way delay your spell level progression) your best bet is Firebolt, which while you said "is also very powerful" is notably less powerful than Agonizing Eldritch Blast, because it's just 1d10 (scaling up to 4d10 at 17th) and you don't get to add ability modifier to it unless you are playing one of the subclasses that let you do so - and even then only once. You aren't going to outdamage a martial with firebolts.
@npaulagain
Жыл бұрын
I think people are tied too strongly to class as opposed to concept when making 'mages'.
@chavesa5
Жыл бұрын
It's exactly this. Pathfinder encourages concepts and ways to fulfill that concept, and a lot of players want a class-based "suit" they can jump into all ready made and ride like a pre-fab mech.
@justicar5
Жыл бұрын
well since the Kineticist is basically a martial with extra steps, and has none of the class fantasy, what other options are there?
@Dimitrishuter
Жыл бұрын
This
@ashrunzeda4099
Жыл бұрын
Because it's what the new generation of tabletop players are exposed to now. Before they transitioned to tabletop, they more than likely played a videogame or two that heavily fixated on class abilities that will define their experience and enjoyment of the game.
@Gotenhanku
Жыл бұрын
Yep absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing a kineticist or psychic but have the character just think of and call themselves as a specialist wizard
@caihly2443
Жыл бұрын
in my last session, while the fighter was mostly attacking, defending and healing, the witch made a cauldron of oil sprout legs and dump itself on the white dragon they were fighting, leading to it catching on fire quickly after. I feel like the her being a novice in TTRPs really helped having a healthier outlook on spellcasting, rather than just looking at averages complaining that "My numbers aren't as big as those of the big number class"
@richarddarma1452
Жыл бұрын
It's more than that, the GM allowing cool stuff to happened outside of the rules. You can't or not allowed to do that normally.
@Chadius
Жыл бұрын
My sorceress shut down a "Tucker's Kobolds" style ambush with a well timed Calm Emotions, and the martials ran in to beat up the leader. I find some people are still transfixed on DPR races against the boss.
@richarddarma1452
Жыл бұрын
@@Chadius people always use either Calm Emotion, Synthesia, and Slow as a counter to how spells are not bad. The overtuned outliers.
@neurolancer81
Жыл бұрын
@@Chadius I’ve played a Bard in Abomination Vaults and did zero damage the entire time and was many a fights MVP. That synesthesia landing Belcora was clutch. But… that’s not the only caster fantasy and the opposite fantasy of doing nothing but damage and annihilating a boss is non-existent in this system. I am forced to be a utility first caster because I have the big spell list. As a sorcerer I don’t have the option to burn Bellcora to a cinder easily. I have layer debuffs which she has to crit fail or the incapacitate effect comes in and then I have to land a crit on her with my piddling accuracy.
@Chadius
Жыл бұрын
@@neurolancer81I have a combat Bard (with Fighter archetype) who uses a whip to punish at range while I use Illusory Creature to shoot people or set up flanks (or heck, just take a hit from the boss and waste enemy actions.) I don't really debuff with magic. I don't use Slow of Synthesia either, I use Heroism and Haste on the martials instead, and True Strike or Shield when I have a spare action. Not sure if I'm still utility, but it's enough damage dealing for me.
@docopoper
Жыл бұрын
I imagine what a lot of people want from an evocation caster could be fulfilled by a kinetecist with a caster archetype. Though the issue is that impulses are fictionally different from spells. So you won't really feel perfectly like a fire mage who mostly casts fire spells.
@johnmoone8013
Жыл бұрын
An evocation caster still has access to every arcane spell in the game. An evocation caster is no less versatile than most other caster This is why spell schools are also going. Curriculum is the way
@lawrl777
Жыл бұрын
i mean impulses can be counterspelled, they count as spells
@toodleselnoodos6738
Жыл бұрын
Nope. That won’t solve it. Because even having infinite “spells”, they start complaining they can’t outdamage the Fighter. They claim they don’t want that, but then someone posts a graph of Kineticist damage being less than a Greatsword fighter and then the comments roll in on how Kineticist is a “worthless blaster”.
@enriquesanders
Жыл бұрын
@@johnmoone8013 Now they do. Traditionally, Evokers had no access to illusion/enchantment and conjuration.
@josephgratton7612
Жыл бұрын
Which edition are you referring to? Be specific please
@lpprogrammingllc
Жыл бұрын
Back in 3.5, there was a war caster class that fit the "more damage than a fighter, but without the versatility of a wizard". So it certainly could be done. You topped out at something like 3 spells known, with a strong emphasis on evocation spells. I don't remember how many cantrips, but in 3.5 they were limited use too. In exchange, you reduced your arcane spell failure by 15%, eventually by 30%, and got proficiency in light and medium armor. You also got the medium-growth base attack progression. Lore-wise, these were mages taken from academy, or recruited *before* they joined an academy, specifically to fight on the battlefield. They were given the minimum training required to throw "blaster caster" spells, and deployed. The end result is a character that can out damage a fighter, including in single target damage, but, due to the limited spell slots, only for 1 or 2 minutes of fighting. And unlike a properly trained wizard, they won't be solving your magical challenges. Balance-wise, you could certainly do the same thing in PF2e, without stepping on toes. First, this isn't going to replace the fighter's dual-role on the front line of dishing out _and taking_ damage, nor does it replace their ability to knock people prone, or otherwise control the front line. Second, the limited spell slots means in a full day of adventuring, the fighter will still _average_ higher single target damage. Mechanically, you'd probably want to use the arcane or primal spell list. Let them know 2 cantrips, and 2 spells, increasing to 3 spells at level 5 or so. All their spells and cantrips must be evocation (with spell schools going away, make it "all must be damaging" or similar). Give them light armor, increasing to medium armor eventually, and Trained in martial weapons. It would need a bit more work to figure out what exactly to hand out when, how many spell slots to give, and so on, but I think could make for an interesting class.
@TheGeorg1236
Жыл бұрын
Class you're describing sounds like Magus. They know 5 cantrips and 4 spellslots per day until level 9.
@Ghost.in.the.Machine
Жыл бұрын
Ah yes, the War Caster. Near universally reviled as being inferior *in every way* to a wizard with a 1 level dip in fighter and few feats, items, and spells. Trying to balance spells as a limited resource only worked when spell preparation was linked to a day rather than 'after an 8 hour rest', as the latter just leads to the 5 minute adventuring day - which makes the full casters even *more* powerful.
@Ghost.in.the.Machine
Жыл бұрын
It was more like the psychic, in that the magus mixes spell & martial combat, while the War Caster was purely a caster with some armor proficiency. Less martial capability than even a PF2e Warpriest. @@TheGeorg1236
@darksavior1187
Жыл бұрын
It was enough to buff martials and not neuter casters, because all Pathfinder succeeding in doing, is making casters feel bad, not make the classes feel balanced, so the equality feels like oppression argument is just bullshit, there is a clear hierarchy of superiority more clear than any version of a D&D antecedent, everyone sits under the fighter, some by not much. They did great at making martials powerful. Pathfinder has the best version of most martial classes that have ever existed in D&D: Better rangers, better fighters, better rogues, better barbarians (although these might need a little help in the survivability department as they can be crit into oblivion). But PF2E has bar none the worst spell casters in any version of D&D. The only role they are good at is buffing martials, and while that is "a" role, its not the only one. Most classes should be able to fill gaps beyond their role specifics. Rogues easily can do anything in the game and likely better than just about anyone. Optimized for combat a dual wield rogue has a ton of ways to achieve off-guard, and deliver amazing single target damage, with no sacrifice to being the absolute best skill monkey in the game. That is pretty much everything in the game, and its apparently fine that a martial can do everything in the game, the real actual example vs the theory that casters did or do that. I generally agree specialist should have their niche, but I don't agree with where Pathfinder has determined those niches. In any D&D game, every class should be good at combat. If we are being honest, combat is where 90% of the rules of the game come into play. So NO CLASS in a combat game, should suck at combat. Casters are a hinderance in PF2E. I say this as someone who has played so many games (I run many for friends and several on Start Playing) and bar none, the situation I see most often is players switching away from spell casters to play a martial, because spell casters aren't fun or effective. This is a real problem in PF2E, as the situation we are in now also proves, because in 3-4 years of its life, the "why do spellcasters feel bad/weak' complaint never dies. If Pathfinder is going to compete in the RPG marketplace, its going to have to do something to improve this, especially in a fantasy genre, where many people want spells, magic, and fantastic things, which Pathfinder deals with seemingly begrudging contempt. The game and its core player community seems more like they just wish spellcasters would fuck off, sincerely.
@robinheinemann1740
Жыл бұрын
Indeed if you go from "wow a support caster would make these 4 other players martials really strong with their support!" to "you know if you played the fifths fighter you would contribute more to the combat effectiveness of the party" then something is seriously wrong.
@loap4634
Жыл бұрын
I think you wrong, combat isn't the only thing that matter in PF2e and I think that caster to me feel as powerful as martial, because they can do all these cool stuff while martial mostly do damage and few thing outside combat and exploration, Dex and Int base Martial are more verstile but they're also have limit within those verstility.
@darksavior1187
Жыл бұрын
@@loap4634 I fully disagree, all classes can become really focused masters of about 3 skills in PF2E, so your fighter can and ime often does become a beast at athletics, medicine, and something else. A rogue can literally be trained in every skill and legendary in twice as many skills as most other classes, there is nothing a well built rogue cannot do better than most, and at least competently. Also, if you pick human, as many often do, you can get access to clever improviser and incredible improvisation, and be super strong at most any skill check. So out of combat is largely handled in PF2E because they did a really good job balancing skill versatility and availability, and medicine skill trivializes out of combat healing. Travel? Well about the time a spellcaster can cast fly, so too can other characters get access with items, racials, etc. Same for teleportation. So returning to in combat, which again, if their own APs are anything to go on, is THE GAME, then you CANNOT have classes that do significantly worse than others and rationally attempt to claim balance. Spellcasters are weak as shit for all but maybe 2/20ths of the game, when they shore up a bit at levels 19 and 20. Everything leading up to that point is a bad time for them. Poor proficiency advancement in spellcasting, terrible perception proficiency, worst armor choices, terrible return to strict Vancian casting for prepared spellcasters, being the only classes still using a daily resource, starting off mediocre and going down from there as the adventure day proceeds, Incapacitation trait which is just an explicit fuck-you to spellcasters specifically, lowest hit dice, weakest versions of commons spells and spell lists of all D&D ancestors, no equipment to aid spellcasters the way other classes get weapon runes, and probably more I am forgetting because in every way they could Paizo chose to cripple spellcasters. Most of the poor arguments used to "prop" up spellcasters are just flat out only good on paper not in game. Use recall knowledge to find out the weak save: Well first recall knowledge and it effects are poorly defined, second almost no one bothers, I mean why? So a spellcaster can barely land a spell on the weak save and only if the fighter, barb, or rogue don't kill it before you can try to maybe capitalize on it? Buffing and debuffing? Buffs is true, but debuffing isn't, the fighter and rogue, especially with their abilities, and most martials, can do that as well or better, and without anything other than opportunity costs. Critical specializations and specialized strikes are also more reliable. AoE damage: Is largely irrelevant often. First there is reliance on positioning and allies in the way, which thanks to spellcasters super crap initiative and perception proficiency, likely means they aren't going first before the rest of the party is all mixed in with the monsters. To the corner case of a group of monsters of minion level that AoE would demolish, they wouldn't even threaten the party at all because they are so low level, and on anything at level or higher, they often saved out of, because monsters have super inflated saves, and many have abilities that can promote a success to a crit success, or inherent bonuses against magic and spell saves. Then there is incapacitation as well, which takes crit fail off the table directly before any dice are rolled. Versatility: Is overrated here. First, its largely just on paper. I say that because only prepared spellcasters have it, spontaneous ones have a smaller repertoire of spells, but that's fine because in the spell lists there are only a handful of spells that are worthwhile (either because they are slightly better than total trash, or don't have the incapacitation trait) and often get taken because of it. Second, that idealized prepared caster actually has to have the right spell for the job prepared, or its irrelevant. Lastly, almost all classes, spellcaster or not can find a way to take advantage of scrolls (trick magic item, thaumaturge scroll specialist, etc) and can do a better job of having the right spell for the job with scrolls, or at least a spell that enhances their class or shores up their weakness than a caster even will. In combat healing? Well battle medicine exists, as do potions, and the strong argument that in combat healing is the least effective thing to be doing most of the time. 4 degrees of success? Nope even that favors martials, because outside of damage basic saves, most often the 4 degrees for a spellcaster is: Spell actually does what it should on a target's crit failure, spell does some consolation prize way weaker version on failure, on success maybe a little something, and crit success means the spell does nothing but burn a spell slot. For martials its most often the basic save and getting double effect on a crit, which they are skewed towards. For things like combat tactics such as grapple and trip, again they are skewed towards succeeding and often do, so they are more likely to crit succeed at such actions, or at least regular succeed by far more than monsters are to fail a saving throw against spells. Also since its a roll by the martial against a monster's fort/ref/will DC, not the monster making the save, hero points can be used to swing them back into their favor. So yeah, all prop up caster arguments are only on paper, not in practice. The game is skewed in martials' favor in a serious way, and that is great for them, but I really feel strongly there is a better balancing point between martials and spellcasters that can be achieved than has been, where no class needs to feel bad to play. That doesn't even address some classes that need help that aren't really in the martial/caster divide, like investigators which are completely overshadowed by mastermind rogues, and alchemists which are just borked.
@aaronjung5502
Жыл бұрын
For the interested, my home brew balance solution was to allow casters to use accuracy runes on attack roll spells for a 1 action tax, and they don’t stack with other accuracy enhancements like true strike. They can either fire off an attack roll spell less accurately for 2 actions or spend an extra action to make it more accurate. Kind of gives it the feel of either trying to quickly do something technical or slowing down to make sure you get it perfect.
@BharathanRajaram
2 ай бұрын
This is such an interesting video for helping clarify the class fantasy of casters in PF2e and summarize the community opinion. As someone new to bothe PF2e and TTRPGs in general, I daresay I have a little less baggage coming in to the system. While I appreciate all this wonderful coverage, I'd love to see more videos focussed on casters that shed all this hostorical baggage and focus on the fun of playing a caster, much like your demo of the Maze spell, but with more detail like your usual combat demos. I think that there is something to be said for presenting the class fantasy and fun of a class without worrying about any of this, especially in getting new players excited. That said, I would hasten to say that none of these requests are demands, but merely what I would wish to see and experience.
@porgy29
Жыл бұрын
I think a big part of this is not just expectations from D&D but from video games. As you mention while Wizards have long been overpowered in D&D, damage was often not their most powerful aspects if you wanted to really break them (they were just so OP so they also had great damage). But if you come from WoW, Diablo, Final Fantasy or many other video games the Wizard (or Sorcerer or Black Mage) meant all in damage often at the cost of durability and often don't have those other flexible options or they aren't very useful (often not even working on bosses or other powerful enemies). I know I came to D&D after first playing JRPG's which effected how me and my playgroup approached the game and the types of characters we tried to build. I'm not saying Paizo has to cater to these expectations all the time (and I think P2E is the first game where you can really feel like the powerful martial characters in the games mentioned) but Paizo should be aware of them. I wonder if one or two of the new wizard curriculums might be focused heavily on damage (a little like Evocation already was). And I don't care if they are the best, if you are looking for the absolute best options you don't get to be so picky, but it is good to include something for the people who like the image of the more destructive and blasty style of mage, and I do agree that Kenetisist has a very different flavor.
@centurosproductions8827
Жыл бұрын
On the topic of caster specialization, I really liked Mesmerist in first edition, but it likely can't be printed without full custom spell lists like 1e had, which it feels Paizo doesn't want to do for this edition.
@StonedDragons
Жыл бұрын
They have done it like for the elementalist or shadow caster.
@Birdmanesp92
Жыл бұрын
My friend has a valid complaint that PC necromancers don't feel like a necromancer.
@user-nb8sg5cy5f
Жыл бұрын
The thing I am a little disappointed in PF2e casters is that the things they are supposed to be good at(controlling and debuffing) are not very consistent either. A caster trying to control someone will have to use 2 actions (which is almost their entire turn) , one of their precious spell slots, and pray to the dice god not to let the enemy crit succeed or their contribution to the party is rendered moot. While a martial can contribute just as much by spending a single strike action. Does this seem fair for casters?
@darkbeetlebot
Жыл бұрын
I agree. In my opinion, the design of effects should be biased towards satisfaction rather than obsessing over fine balance. If you're spending a resource on something that fails and that resource can't easily be replenished, it feels really, really bad and unsatisfying. If you're spending that resource, you ought to at least partially succeed at worst. Being able to fail completely is offset by being able to try again. It's the same as in dark souls: when you die, yes, you died, but you can try again. You don't have a permanent penalty for it unless you die twice in a row without picking your souls back up. Dark souls 2 violated this by giving a health penalty and forcing a practically limited resource to be used to recover that health. Nobody liked it. To this day, it's still one of the biggest complaints about the game, and for good reason: lowered health causes a death spiral, and not being able to negate that death spiral because you ran out of the practically limited resource can mean throwing yourself at a brick wall which has not only not taken any damage but has become *stronger* for so long that the player could just quit out of frustration. And that's happened before, where people can get effectively softlocked this way. All of this to say, I disagree with the direction paizo went with. I agree with their intent, but their methods leave much to be desired. And again, I think the "fine balance" obsession is severely overblown and a bit toxic.
@jambo1815
Жыл бұрын
I mean, when martials miss their first attack, it feels awful too. And it's pretty much a 50/50 whether it connects. And missing your attacks and then having to stay in damage range of the enemy while casters who don't land their spells are still at a safe distance to cast utility.
@Kitusser
Жыл бұрын
@@jambo1815 Yeah but a caster loses a spellslot on top of doing nothing for their whole turn. The fighter still has most of their turn.
@lawrl777
Жыл бұрын
@@Kitusser you usually get something out of a spell slot unless the target critically succeeds, which is much rarely than 50/50, half damage is not nothing
@Kitusser
Жыл бұрын
@@lawrl777 True but some spells actually do nothing on a success or do pretty much nothing.
@gmsnowy7344
Жыл бұрын
Part of the problem is that PF2e is making huge breaks with its historical lineage in some areas, and not enough in others. You're right about the need for class specialization, but people aren't satisfied because they're asking a question that you (and Paizo) aren't: "Why isn't there a caster class that eschews access to debuffs and utility for raw damage?" People want blasters casters, and in previous editions, they could play those. So why hasn't Paizo made a caster that is a blaster, even if that's all it is? Part of the problem is that by condensing the spell lists, they've necessitated that access to powerful damaging magic is bundled with access to powerful buff/debuff magic, so since they see the later as more central to caster design space, they've depowered the former, but not put in a class or spell list to satisfy the innate human desire to blow everything up.
@ladislavseps4801
Жыл бұрын
My personal problem with p2e spellcasters as GM was spell usage out of combat and maybe of combat spell durations. Lot of spell slots and spell switching allows you to do random cool stuff out of combat. It felt like they are sitting in the dungeon waiting for the melees to break, find and open stuff. In p2e players are hoarding spell slots. I don't rememeber anyone trying blasting lock with a fireball. (and frying half of the party) and then when it doesnt work trying another spell. I've let the caster cast out of combat without using spell slots.(prepare the spell for 10 minutes and just cast it for free). And for second party I made the occurence of engaments more predictable. Both worked for the player engagement quite well and made them just try stupid and fun stuff. It gets better with played sessions, but the low number of spell slots is a problem when switching from dnd..
@ashenlion805
Жыл бұрын
The problem with this line of thinking is that hyper focus on one thing. So what if you don't have access to Maze? Then what are you still as strong? What if they are immune? What if you never get to 15 level? Does that mean you have to be less because there's future possibilities that you are stronger? Critical failures don't equal good. I played in av and got many many more critical successes against me than I ever got critical failures. Boss monsters have very high saves and not all casters have access to good spells that target just any save. Caster are held to a standard of play that just isn't supported. Recall knowledge is poorly written and costly in actions and investments. Non rogues get very few skill bumps and it feels bad to 'waste' them on a lore like skill. Good spells like slow don't have will and fort equivalents. Slows critical failure is just too brutal to make the spell more versatile such as picking your target save. I think casters are close but if they want them to be generalist that spend actions to recall and target the right save then do that. Let me roll recall and target fort or will on a slow. Tone down the failures versus critical failures. Give me the tools to play how it's intended because we just don't have that right now.
@TheBearProphet
7 ай бұрын
Out of curiousity, have your feelings changed regarding recall knowledge? The remaster has made it significantly easier to find out the lowest save assuming your DM is going by the rules as written. Maze is strong, but it isn’t as though there aren’t other good spells. Every spell lost has at least some good options at every rank. Frankly I think the biggest problem with casters is that there are still a large number of spells that are below par, and it is easier to accidentally make a bad caster (or alchemist) than a bad martial just by picking spells that are below where they should be.
@VampByDay
Жыл бұрын
I maintain that the issue is purely about accuracy. When enemies have such high saves that they routinely crit save against one of your few daily spell slots, it feels like you aren't doing anything. The issue isn't that I want to do more damage than the fighter, the issue is that I want to do SOMETHING in combat. Marshals can attack up to 3-4 times a round, and sure, that last swing might need a nat 20 to succeed, but it COULD hit, vs. one shot per round for a spellcaster And the old arguement that you can choose spells that target each save doesn't hold any water. There are lots of spell lists (divine in particular) that don't have a lot of options. In fact, they introduced a ring that lets you turn an attack roll spell into a reflex or fortitude save spell and it STILL didn't fix anything, so no, that's not the issue. It's low accuracy combined with 1 chance/round to do something. Again, I don't want to out damage a martial, I realize that my bag of tricks is deeper than theirs, and that costs power, I just want to do SOMETHING in combat.
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
But martials miss all the time, while spells generally still do meaningful things even on passed save - even with the many attacks, spellcasters are the ones with the better odds to do *something* already.
@VampByDay
Жыл бұрын
@@rednidedni3875 Yes, my problem is that by endgame, monsters often CRIT save, which generally means you do nothing. THAT is the issue that I see most often. When enemies crit-save on an 11 or higher (which I've seen before from maxed-out spellcasters) then you just feel like the game is kicking you while you are down. Sorry if I wasn't clear before. But yeah, generally if a martial makes 2-3 attacks in a round, they are probably gonna hit at least once, and if not, there is always next round. If you , as a spellcaster, have the same luck with dice rolls, that's THREE rounds and three daily resources you are out of, and that feels a lot less fun.
@Myrdraall
Жыл бұрын
Preach. I've been saying for a long time that if casters got expert at 5 and access to runes like everyone else nearly no one would be complaining, be they playing martials or casters.
@rednidedni3875
Жыл бұрын
@@VampByDay Hold on, *what*? Is your GM doing some funny homebrew? Because unless you're slinging incapacitation spells at bosses or asking the PL+4 troll to make a fortitude saving throw for you, ain't no monsters gonna crit on a nat 11.
@VampByDay
Жыл бұрын
@@rednidedni3875 Don't want to spoil it, but yes, there is a canonical boss of a Paizo-written Adventure path that is PL +4 that crit succeeds fort saves on a nat 11 vs the best spellcaster in the game (that is maxed out spellcasting stat + legendary spellcasting+ apex item in spellcasting stat). By the way he crit succeeds on will saves on a 15+, and reflex saves on a 19+ But fine, let's ignore that one monster. By the time you are around level 11, many monsters will crit succeed on a nat 15 one one save, and a nat 17 on another. Like, again, best spellcaster vs. a Hezrou Demon. And if you play a warpriest with 16 starting wisdom? The likelihood of a crit succeeds goes to something like 12 on the die, and 15 on the die. And that's if you are fighting a monster of the same level. Anyone who has played any paizo materials knows that they tend to just send a succession of rooms with one party level +3 monster after another after the party. So, yeah, I stand by my statement that the problem is accuracy and the likely hood of enemies crit succeeding and invalidating your turn and costing you a daily resource feels pretty bad.
@centurosproductions8827
Жыл бұрын
On the topic of support players, I don't care if my Bardsong actually gives the numbers to swing things, it just feels fun to know you are making everybody better. And when an attack misses, and you remind them they have that +1, so it hits...
@nutluck
Жыл бұрын
I think the power level for casters is fine as does most people I talk to. What most have issues with are two things. 1) more focused builds which you covered, being very good in a much more narrow field, like a summoner not like the current class but a wizard type that focuses heavily on summoning spells but gives up other stuff for better versions of those spells. Or the popular necromancer. 2) A big complaint I hear among people I know is it is great having a big list of spells but since you have to pick them without knowing what will happen, people tend to focus on picking combat spells, because those will always be used and others might not get used. For 2 I have played around with allowing more non-combat spells to be cast as rituals but with big time requirements, making them useless in combat or even when time is a issue. But allows them to be used more and so far players have loved it. The other thing I tried was using the 5e style spell slots. meaning you memorize x number of spells per day and you get x number of spell points/slots per level a day that can be used on any spell of that level or lower. Both I found made players take fewer combat focused spells, more niche spells and in both cases caster players greatly enjoyed playing their casters more, with out IMHO making them more powerful, just more versatile, which yes is a type of power but it had little effect in combat again IMHO. I think either or even a combination of those would make most people happy with casters, especially if option 1 of new narrow focused classes where introduced, I think most players would be happy with casters. Again just my personal opinion.
@xaropevic7918
Жыл бұрын
I liked your comment and all, especially the ritual idea, but memorize x number of spells per day and getting x spell slots is too similar to spontaneous casting so I don't like it much and spell points in an appropriate conversion can end up just like giving spell blending to all casters
@nutluck
Жыл бұрын
@@xaropevic7918 Yes it would mean reworking sorcerers but adding the flexibility to all casters as I said makes them use spells they normally don't in my experience which makes for more dynamic game play. DnD 5e does that, it is one of the few things I think they did better than PF2e
@xaropevic7918
Жыл бұрын
@@nutluck I would be fine if they did something to differ sorcerers and spontaneous casters better but the way done in 5e seems to me too generic to the point I don't know the difference between those two sources
@haydenarlo1950
Жыл бұрын
DND 5e Wizard: Great at everything, outshines most classes outside of Druid, Bard, and Paladin DND 5e Monk & Rogue: Not best at anything. Being a Ranger makes you better at what both of them are “good” at.
@McFatson
Жыл бұрын
This reminds me of a story about an experience I had in Pathfinder Society We were traveling close to shore on a river boat, when we were ambushed by monsters making ranged attacks from the shore. Our greatsword fighter (the party's only reliable physical damage dealer) moved to the edge of the boat, waiting for them to close the distance for multiple rounds. They never pulled out a ranged weapon. Even when I tossed a loaded crossbow to their feet, they just stood there getting pumped full of arrows, not wanting to even TRY to do something besides swinging their precious big sword. Eventually, either due to a fail safe in the scenario's writing or the GM feeling sorry for them, the monsters gave up their advantage and marched forward to their deaths. That's kinda how I feel about players who sincerely want to butcher the wizard's utility just to spam one or two damage spells their entire career.
@deltasora
Жыл бұрын
Misunderstanding your point about casters being able to do so many different things. Mate my spell list means jack if I didn't prepare it for the day, or if the one slot I prepared fails.
@ratfckr
Жыл бұрын
I think there is 2 problems, I don't believe that the actual versatility of casters are relevant specially for the prepared casters because taking a day off to prepare new spells sucks and I don't think is reasonable in way that you spend 1 hour preparing at morning and replace everything. Many and many players focus on getting the best spells and not the bad spells, the more situacional stuff can be solved without magic because in the end we need to design stuff that can be solved by martial or casters in the AP's. IMO All prepared casters should be able to reprepare stuff like the wizard thesis does, that can give a more smooth experience and you sound more like a tool box and less like a timed tool box that locks itself after daily preparations. This goes against vancian casting, but I don't like much the Raw Vancian. The second problem is the traps on spell casting, there are many weak spells that myself can't see using never, because other spells cover their stuff. I'll not buy the fallacy of Magic Gathering that must exist bad options, no shouldn't exist bad options, only situacional options but we really have some trap options and I fear when they put that stuff locked up in Bloodlines/Curriculum/Deity.
@smccann1998
Жыл бұрын
My main issue with PF2E and why I quit it ultimately is that it is too obsessed with balance above everything else. Its a noble effort and obviously for many people it is what they want. Theres always a balance between balls to the wall flavour for abilities and spells and finely tuned balance. To me it seems in order to have one you must detract from the other. PF2E for me leans far too heavily into the latter. In my eyes at the end of the day casters can be as "balanced" as you like but if they simply aren't fun to play for what most people are led to expect them to be good at then it is bad game design. Its simply just flat out unfun to miss attacks all the time. If Paizo want people to just use control spells so bad they might as well just get rid of the roll to hit damage spells because they flat out suck. The fact that we need youtube videos and reddit posts to explain this rather than the game guiding players towards this conclusion themselves is the failure of the game imo.
@Lycaon1765
Жыл бұрын
Good comment 👍 I also find this aspect of PF2 a bit of a thorn for me. I mostly see it in how the game likes to have more inconveniences in the name of "balance" than trying to make the game run better and have better character options. The fact that everyone who has access to quick draw takes quick draw as soon as they can is a great showing of this. How about we just get rid of this whole "takes an action to draw something" kerfuffle and replace that feat with something mich more interesting and give the other feats some room to breathe? Because as I see it, especially as someone who plays in society, the pedantry and annoyance of this rule is so much more annoying that I'd rather just get rid of it. The other feats just don't compare to the QoL. I also see this issue in the diagonal movement rule. Bleh. Each square is 5 ft no matter what to me. It's like when in an MMO game the designers make the experience worse just to sell you the solution to the problem. Game world is boring to travel through? Pay 30 bucks for some teleportation scrolls and avoid that! Hate having only 10 slots in your bank inventory? Get our VIP membership and turn those 10 slots into 50 slots!! There's just so much of that in PF2.
@johnmoone8013
Жыл бұрын
You can't have good fun to play martials if they are overwhelmingly overshadowed by casters.
@smccann1998
Жыл бұрын
@johnmoone8013 yeah but my entire issue is that inversely casters are just flat out unfun many times in this system. I'm not a game designer but I don't think casters and martials should miles apart either like in Pf1e and 5e. Casters already get punished over martials by having limited use slots. To spend that and to just wiff an attack because your to hit sucks feels bad. Similarly I think it's boring to make fighters the best by giving them crits left and right. I think Paizo should put more focus into spellcasting and having it blend more interestingly with the action economy imo. Something like having powerful spells for the trade off of multiple round casts could be interesting but Im not sure how that would blend with the game as it stands now. But as it stands now spending a high level spell slot, spending two actions to cast and wiffing most of the time is just crap
@davidbowles7281
Жыл бұрын
Casters having to hit full AC on spell attacks is flat out ridiculous to me.
@WolfBoy-om6dw
27 күн бұрын
Agreed
@nswmeeuwes89
Жыл бұрын
I'm a 5e player currently, although I'm going to try out PF2E. I have a very good understanding of the rules in 5e though and most of this sounds pretty good to me. Somewhat recently I was playing a Psi warrior fighter, reasonably optimized to fit my concept, half-orc, using a Greatsword and GWM, Heavy armor, no shield ofc. He did good damage IF he managed to get close to the enemies, usually in order to help me do good damage a ranged ally would get into the fray as well for the flanking bonus. He was a ranged character, so it was suboptimal for him, although I appreciated the help. In the front lines my character would go down pretty quickly, my hp was alright, my AC was pretty low, couldn't afford Full plate yet. i did not feel like the badass half-orc fighter I wanted to be. He died and I made a new character. The new character is a Wildfire duid. I took a level in Arcana cleric for fire bolt, but in hindsight it's not that useful. Slot progression just continues though. As a WF druid I can now summon an ally wildfire spirit with its own AC and HP to the field, so it can just tank extra hits. This ally can teleport people around every turn. My HP is nearly the same as it was for the Fighter, my AC is the same, because I can use a shield. I can heal and revive allies. Using Summon Fey I can add more HP to the field and as long as I have used a 4th level spell slot I outdamage the fighter. And that's while dealing damage isn't even always the best thing I can do. We can all stay at range now, and I can use Pass without Trace to make the whole party stealth experts. Not to mention all the cantrips I have for utility out of combat and for problem-solving. It's absolutely bonkers how much better my druid is than my fighter. Being able to do all those things would be kind of fine, if I didn't also do more damage than my fighter character.
@Lycaon1765
Жыл бұрын
Damn you dumped constitution? On a fighter?
@Ditidos
Жыл бұрын
@@Lycaon1765 Constitution is kinda hard to justify on a 5e fighter, particularly a Psi-Warrior since you need Strenght, Dexterity (for AC, if you don't, your AC is crap or caster-equivalent until you get full plate and AC is more important to tank than hit points) and Intelligence too. Not only that, but Wisdom feels like a better investment too due to being proficient in Constitution saving throws. It's a lot of stats to juggle around, so I assume 14 Constitution at most and more likely 10 or 12.
@Lycaon1765
Жыл бұрын
@@Ditidos edit: thought you were the OP lol xD ?????? How can you say that??? Con is literally the second most important stat the fighter needs??? How is it hard to justify when it's literally what provides you your most ample resource, your HP????????? I think there's your first issue, you just dumped con. You need con. You never dump con. You only need strength if you're using non-finesse weapons. If you're going like you did, a greatsword then you dump dex and get heavy armor. You don't need dex if you have heavy armor. Don't invest in dex if you plan to use heavy armor, that's foolish. Get chainmail then get splint until you can afford plate. Cuz splint is cheaper. You said you had heavy armor, so what it looks like from your comment is that you just spread your ability scores too thin, no wonder you died. On average people have a 14 con. 10 or 12 con is practicality unplayable and not at all what you should assume as baseline. 14 is baseline. As a fighter your mental scores are less than tertiary. Any stat other than your main attack stat and con is dumpable. After strength is when you start shoring up your weaknesses and caring more about "now what other scores fit the personality?" or if it's some score you need for a subclass. You said your were fairly optimized but it sounds you definitely weren't if you were dumping con. Only people with wack builds that are focused on avoidance dump con. Like that's just something you just don't do????
@nswmeeuwes89
Жыл бұрын
@@Lycaon1765 No tje difference between a d8 and a d10 isn't very big and since we roll for hp, my druid got more. Even if we used average hp per level, it would mean my fighter would have 8 more hp at level 7, when he died. That's not a lot. Now add to that the tactical options for positioning, using the dodge action while still contributing, stealth, and summoning 50some hp to the battlefield and my druid far outclasses my fighter in survivability. The other person said something about con on psi warrior. It's true they're more MAD than a druid, but that's honesty beside the point. Martials have to give up AC to do damage, casters don't and can do a whole bunch more than that in 5e.
@neurolancer81
Жыл бұрын
So much gatekeeping in this comment section. Just cause someone disagrees with Paizo implementation of casters doesn’t mean they don’t like tactical gameplay or don’t like a complex game. Lots of 2e players play APs. Paizo makes a lot of them, LFGs are 95%+ APs and so it’s easy to get into. APs are combat heavy which usually means you never end up getting to use the vaunted, oft exalted, versatility casters. When you start your day you know you are going to fight but you rarely know what or where you are fighting. This usually ends up making combat spells and some control/buff spells the only things that would help your party get through those fights. So, that is what most casters prepare. If you don’t believe me look at the let’s plays that The Rules Lawyer’s channel has, you will very rarely see a wizard prepare non-combat spells. There is a lot of theoretical Utility that casters have which is very rarely used in play or encouraged by the APs that the system puts out. So, when people who play these APs have grievances, it is not right to just brush them off.
@ShineTheHedgehog
Жыл бұрын
okay but *every caster from now on should be like kineticist* I ain't budgin' on this. I'd even wager to say every class should be like kineticist, forward and backward; it's a beautiful, elegant design
@Alex-cq1zr
Жыл бұрын
Idk about every class being a kineticist, but i do agree that kineticist is good as a class. Especially how kineticist actually uses the feat system. Full casters can just not invest any feats into spellcasting and still get more and more options, hence why you need to nerf them a ton. With kineticist, you have less of stuff, so you can get stronger stuff (such as kineticist not really having spell slots or focus points) I kinda like Focus Points and also like this whole kineticist approach (strong spells are single use or basically debuff you for a turn) Ig spellcasters aren't terrible tho. Just different
@jajohnek
Жыл бұрын
The thing is: if you narrow the versatility of all magic users down and allow them to be stronger in whatever they end up specializing (by subclass feats and such), you can also just make one of the subclass open up the versatility instead of the buffs in power of anything specific. But then of course you'd see the extra power you're giving up much better and some people might have a problem with that.
@velinion1
Жыл бұрын
AD&D 2nd Edition had initiative! Spells had a casting time, which was added to your initiative roll, whereas a weapon user had a Speed Factor for each particular weapon type. So for initiative order you rolled 1d10, added your casting time or weapon speed factor, and went lowest first. (Also, armor had modified AC vs Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning which was cool). The initiative system was kind of overcomplicated, and they had some suggested alternates (players roll a single d10, monsters roll a d10, everyone adds their cast time/weapon factor) Anyways, 3e didn't add initiative to D&D, it just streamlined, simplified, and standardized it (Since there were several alternate initiative rules in AD&D 2e)
@enriquesanders
Жыл бұрын
Yes. Also you had 2 barred schools if you were an evoker. This guy doesn't knowwhat he's taking about.
@Dharengo
8 ай бұрын
He didn't say AD&D2E didn't have initiative though. And adding casting time to your initiative was the problem he described.
@arcady0
Жыл бұрын
18:37 - People don't want to "fight better than the fighter. You're being disingenuous there. People want to be able to match each other in combat - as that is such a central part of modern gaming. If we want to talk about 'gatekeeping' - it's the idea that some classes should be best. Better is to let them all get there through different routes. In 2023 - people aren't coming to this from a blank slate or even from D&D per se. They're also coming from online games. Games where a DPS caster is equal in power to a melee martial but different in style. Given that the kineticist gives up the massive spell book that can only be used a scant few times a day anyway... what excuse is left for them to not be an equal in the modern era where you're getting players coming from games where neither side is more powerful - they're each just different.
@johnparker8648
Жыл бұрын
I don't know what kind of games of 3e/3.5 you were playing, but in my 20+ years of experience spells were never "nearly impossible to resist" due to stacking bonuses to DCs. Bonuses to DCs for spells are very rare throughout all of 3e. The biggest problem spells are the ones that are suddiciently punishing on a successful save or don't have a save to begin with (Maze and Irresistible Dance). I would also want a definition of nearly impossible to resist. I personally would define that at a minimum of needing a natual 20 to succeed on the saving throw.
@scottmyers909
Жыл бұрын
I know everyone craps on the divine list, but especially as a cleric, do people forget that they have auto access to the ENTIRE list every time they prepare their spells? (Minus alignment and deity restrictions of course.) if they can get even a hint of what is coming to adjust their prepped spells, it can be pretty powerful.
@moviejuhlin
Жыл бұрын
My 5 cents in this debate are: Wizards should be like scientists. They should specialize in one school with maybe a minor in another school. Limit the amount a school can do. Maybe Elementalists get a control spell, but it would not be as powerful as a same-level control spell from the Enchantment school. It feels dumb that if you can have access to high levels of two different spell schools, the skill set is the same. Like summoning a demon is somehow the same as casting Cone of Cold. Also when you see a wizard casting a spell, you would know what kind of wizard they were and counterplay accordingly.
@Praeses04
Жыл бұрын
The idea that Maze is something you want casters at high level to cast is just a terrible experience. It either completely dominates the boss encounter and you win easily or the boss saves after a round and your wasted your 8th level spell slot for a marginal gain. You might as well be using 3e disintegrate or some other save or die spell. Casters shouldn't outdamage melee, but reducing everything to these extremely high variance spells is why people hate it, you need a complete revamp of a large portion of the spell list or save system to make it work. Balance doesn't matter if its a terrible play experience half the time when you gambling on one of your higher level spell slots. Also, I think cantrips can scale like 5e (outside of eldrich blast being insane), it's is just a filler move, pathfinder 2e cantrips basically useless after the first few levels
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