I needed this. I think I can connect better with others at my church, better with my daughter, and better with a children's group that I lead because you took the time to make this video. Great video.
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
You made my day! Thank you.
@benitanichols8136
4 ай бұрын
Thank you! I remember being distraught when I was in my twenties when I was told I was being “worldly” when I expressed my creativity among church members. However, ten or twelve years later when I was a member of a church which embraced creativity, I grew more spiritual and felt free to express myself. Yes, there is a need for Christian arts and entertainment. Churches need to encourage young artists.
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
4 ай бұрын
Awesome to read your comment! It is always a blessing to hear good news of creatives finding Churches that encourage and inspire their people to use their creative gifts! Are you here in the U.S. or somewhere else around the world?
@KeithWahlKeithRWahl
7 ай бұрын
This is a bit of a message that I needed to hear. I have listened to it twice already and have set it aside to make notes and delve into this more.
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
Keith, you made my day, brother! blessings.
@ConcealedCourier
7 ай бұрын
Well, in regards to logos and icon, I would reference "four apostles" by Albrecth Durher. It was an attempt by him to show the protestants that iconography was not a bad thing. It remains the only piece of protestant iconography to this day for a reason: "The heart is a factory of idols." It's hard for me to say when I came to the formative opinion that the church was generally set against non-propogandic art, but by early adolescence (c.1995) I had aquired this understanding. I have strong suspicion that Serrano and Basquiat are close to the source, simply because of the term "NEA" lurks in the fog. Something about the GOP going after the NEA sent a message to me about this at a very early age. And when I really think about that, it really shows that 'christian nationalism' is not a recent phenomenom; it's seed was planted a long time ago. I will say this regarding George Lucas and his "pagans", as you call them. I have spoken with quite a few of them over on SW boards: they have told me explicitly that if it was not for believing in "The Force", they would be atheist. So these Jediists have essentially taken Pascal's Wager. But they've seen what your "non-pagan"(I guess) Abrahamic religions have to offer; it was The Jedi Path that made more moral sense to them, which is the purpose of taking Pascal's Wager in the first place.🤔
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
Fascinating comments Courier. Thank you so much for taking the time to comment. First, yes! I love Albrecht Durher. I saw his etchings many years ago at Oxford while backpacking around Europe with my wife. And you are correct about the protestant hangup, ever since the Reformation. I have friends who are Orthodox Priests, who have helped me in understanding their approach to icons.....though I am making the case more for "image and word" rather than for religious icons, per se. We could probably have a long chat about the protestant resistance to non-propagandic art...but my research has led me to believe it has more to do with the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution...wherein the church fought to connect faith and reason, but didn't bother to fight for the role of beauty....and left the romantics to fend for themselves. Ah, the NEA- yes, I have friends who have been on the board of the NEA. I think the NEA should be more about bringing great art to schools, rather than endorsing transgressive arts - let museums and galleries play that role and see if it sticks over time. I don't think Christians pushing back on the NEA was Christian Nationalism precisely...there may have been elements, but the pure offensiveness does not build national unity, it is divisive and finds its roots in Nietzsche and the Parisian design schools. I have a lecture on that tracing the transgressive movement back through London, Paris, and to Nietzsche - the perceived need to be the ubermensch who transcends all social mores and morals. Thus, such artists must offend and break all social norms. This means the artist's job is to offend, while the quality of the art is secondary. (Think, Sex Pistols... their manager didn't give a $%^ about the music, and the musicians have corroborated that point) The Jedi/ Pagan discussion is another issue altogether...though I always found Pascal's wager to be a winsome argument, as it were. So I appreciate the reference. If your friends found a belief in something as a result of Star Wars, I wouldn't doubt that. The influence was tremendous and I have enjoyed the early SW movies... we don't need to argue which ones are better besides 4,5,6 ;-). But their belief would not belief in the God of the Bible. It would be in a pagan, or pantheistic god who exists in nature as a part of the world rather than a being who created the world. Thus the term pagan. I don't use the term in a derogatory sense. I enjoy hanging out with people of other beliefs when we can have a real discussion. I use the term in the sense of pantheism, and non- monotheistic beliefs. blessings, Courier.
@no1ofconsequence936
7 ай бұрын
I should bring up, in Genesis, Pharaoh says that the Spirit of God is on Joseph. It is a different situation given the speaker, but still an earlier mention. Though on the topic of stories, I've noticed that oftentimes Hollywood will put out a film that's either all about materialism or spiritualism, as if the two cannot be mixed. The thing is, we are body and soul, so neither the material nor spiritual realms should be neglected if we can help it. Maybe that's why stories like Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia are so different; there is something spiritual in them, but not at the rejection of the material. Or maybe I'm wrong.
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
Interesting reference, consequence! Thank you so much for taking time to comment. That reference to Joseph would be Genesis 39:2-3. here is the NIV translation: "2 The Lord was *with Joseph* so that he prospered, and he lived in the house of his Egyptian master. 3 When his master saw that the Lord was with him and that *the Lord gave him success* in everything he did." It is a different description, with different implications. It isn't a "filling with the Spirit of God." but I appreciate the note, and always glad to see people are looking for other biblical connections! And, Yes! You are not wrong. you are spot on! Materialism vs spiritualism is a common problem, and Christians should avoid it because it isn't Biblical and it doesn't actually reflect reality. You have a body of flesh, and an imagination, a mind and a soul! Incidentally, two early heresies of the Christian church were about that - denying Christ was fully God, or denying He was fully man. It is an old problem, but maybe you can create works of art that help us see the corrective option more clearly and more attractively! Blessings, Joel
@BloodBoughtMinistries
7 ай бұрын
I am a graphic designer, on my IG account I found that I usually lose followers when I post Christian art / designs and the Christians who follow really do not like my non Christian art / designs/ - seems like you have to either leave faith our of it or only create Christian themed art and design. But that wont work for me. Sure can get frustrating.
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
Bloodbought. Thank you for taking time to comment. I looked at your IG channel. It is all text, and quotes by theologians, and scripture. it doesn't look like you are trying to highlight your design skills but are more focused on preaching and proclamation. Maybe try creating some graphic designs that are simply beautiful, which would reflect what I said about Psalm 19 in the video and God's creation. Your art is so explicit, it leaves no room for nuance. It is not like the parables of Christ that had nuance - which Jesus was fine with. Maybe watch the video again, and pray about how you might make a greater impact without being so explicit. You may also want to watch this video, kzitem.info/news/bejne/0W5436OIq6CqhJw and consider the different voices Christians can have - Prophet, Priest and King. Your design now is very explicitly only in the prophet/proclamation voice...which has a very limited audience, and is often only for believers, or confronting non-believers.
@cyuper
7 ай бұрын
This is a fabulous video. Do you have a package of coaching for pastors or church leaders to implement this in their churches?
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
Great idea, Cyuper. I have coached and counseled pastors over the years. I just haven't advertised that opportunity...I will have to add that to our services.
@bluemarlin2004
7 ай бұрын
You got this thought exactly backwards. The reason why many artists are leaving the ministry more specifically the music ministry is that they are either not living in a condition suited for the ministry or they get disciplined. I know many artists who looooooves playing in the worship who lives like a heathen. Many of them go outside during the preaching. God gave talents so believers can minister in a worship. But big NO. if you say since I have a talent then maybe the church would align to my preference. Anyone can claim they have the spirit of God. The Bible is still THE standard. The local church can also make their own standards locally. Those churches who gave up both will just learn it the hard way. God explicitly designed the entire worship of the old testament according to what He wanted to deliberately distinguish Israel from its neighbors. However, you are suggesting we should remove the distinctions and welcome the world inside the church.
@Sundayschoolnetwork
7 ай бұрын
Amen
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
That is a very different issue than what I am addressing. I am not really talking about musicians involved in worship, but filmmakers, visual artists, and musicians performing professionally. What you are addressing is an issue of churches overlooking sin in order to benefit from someone's talent on the worship team. I would never endorse that view. The problems you enumerate are always the result. It leads to a bad witness and spiritual compromise that can infect the rest of a church. That is legit issue in some of these mega churches who care more about a show than holiness.
@Sundayschoolnetwork
7 ай бұрын
@@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries yes, amen. Thank you for clearing that up.
@bluemarlin2004
7 ай бұрын
@@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries I watched the video again. I thought maybe I heard you wrong. But still no. The issue I am talking about is very common worldwide not only in mega churches in America. I live in Asia, and I see it all the time. I have Christian friends in various flavors if I may say. So I know what I'm talking about. You are correct. I was mainly talking about music ministry. But you are talking a broader spectrum that suggest be let loose without a "leash". We already know what open ended ministry will end up. The world end up mocking God, the Bible and Christianity because fringe strange ministries out there. Look at the Israelites, they were given explicit rules in the worship and explicit rules on how they should conduct their lives. Even THAT did not end very well, right? Our primary goal is to glorify God. Offering our God-given talents in collaboration with each other, all the more glorifies God. TRUE. But there must be lines that should not be crossed. We already know how rotten can the art industry be. If churches allow an inflow of subtle worldly ideas from the world soon you will realize it becomes an avalanche of the culture of the world inside the church. We should focus our energy on the basics of the church. Set our priorities right. A church is still a church with zero artists in it. A church with zero resistances from the world is no longer Christ's church. No amount of mental gymnastics can overcome the reality of human psychology.
@bluemarlin2004
7 ай бұрын
@@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries I think I know exactly what you wish to do. It is like an Alan Ritchson type of Christianity. He tries to marry Christianity with the secular. He believes he can make crafts that opposed the Bible and still be a Christian influencer. He delivers this false dilemma to Christians that we either serve a God of emptiness or an infinite creator God who brought the wild and the free. This is a big time fallacy and a psychological manipulation with huge red flag waving across it.
@ConcealedCourier
7 ай бұрын
"John 3:16 isn't emblaizoned on the Moon." Joel, why do you think your fellow christians are trying to convert Elon Musk?🤨
@ArtsEntertainmentMinistries
7 ай бұрын
If a Christian is sincere, they should try to convert everyone...because we want everyone to experience grace and forgiveness and to be in Heaven.
@silversilk8438
7 ай бұрын
Hahaha! “This just in, rogue Elon Musk robots dig up moon rocks in an oddly specific pattern. But the Australians see it upside down.”
@silversilk8438
7 ай бұрын
ArtsEntertainment…, I watched this video but I’ve come back after a bit of thinking. And my spirit churns, and I wonder if you’re really saying what I’m hearing. Because… You’ve got a wrong idea of things. The reason an english bible verse isn’t projected onto the moon is because general revelation in nature isn’t sufficient to teach us who God is: we need the specific divine revelation of the Bible. You spoke about Jesus as icon. _So?_ Jesus represents God perfectly through his character yet the psalms said he had no comeliness (exceptional beauty, physically speaking). Even though the Bible describes David’s ruddiness and Absalom’s golden long hair, we explicitly get no physical descriptions of what Jesus looked like… except we know from the woman with the issue of blood that he wore the jewish clothes with tassels, and we know from his plucked out beard that he had a beard going. But people too often coddle idolatry. Iconography is not okay, and it’s a ridiculous exercise! It’s like titling a picture of taylor swift, “my mom” or nelson mandela “my father in heaven.” It is So perverse to add an image of one who IS NOT God and then worship with it as if you needed a physical conduit to the spiritual. In the Catholic church they even have black, asian, and white versions of their idolatrous depictions of “Jesus and Mary” - which aren’t them whatsoever! God never gave us His similitude for a reason. (Will cite bible soon.) So of calling Jesus God’s icon, I again say: _So what?_ The Bible says we are ALL made in God’s image. But fundamentally, that doesn’t mean that we are each what God looks like! Jesus isn’t the physical representation of God, Jesus is fully man and fully God - he IS God, but the beatific vision is a future not current thing. God’s been hidden in the clouds every single time, even when He spoke from heaven to say This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Exodus 20 says not to MAKE images, and we can see from Acts 19 that if religious iconography were ok (and it’s not!) then the silversmiths at Ephesus would not be fearing to go out of business. *Deuteronomy 4 says why not to make images.* Like Leviticus 10’s strange fire, Luke 11:42, Joshua 11:15, making an image isn’t just disobeying a command, but leaving what was commanded undone. God wants His voice obeyed. God says in John 4, that we must worship in Spirit and in Truth. Hence, the Ark of the Covenant did not have a depiction of God, but it was His soiritual presence that would dwell there because there is no carnal replacement for the spiritual. Carnal things don’t curry us favour with God either, as Simon the Sorcerer learned, and carnal means cannot bring us closer to God, as 1 Corinthians 8:8 explains. Overall, as a creative, I’m pretty appalled by the nutty loopholes people try to find to say they can make such graven images and idolatrous icons. As a creative, I’d rather submit my talents to God than do what pleases me but polluted my soul. It’s no good to make an idol, and the heart is an idol factory. There’s nothing wrong with realizing and acting according to that reality: the creative projects I’m looking at are ones that talk Bible but don’t try to depict Jesus or God or the apostles or the like. North Korea shows us that even political figures can be idols, and that people have been all too tolerant of idolatry all around. The whole idea that “putting up an image of this person will demonstrate our respect for them” is such a blatant admission of idolatry that it’s not funny. Well, it never was funny. I’m disappointed by the very thought but I’ll ask anyways: Do you have icons or images of “Jesus” (it’s not actually depicting Jesus though) or any other religious figure set up in your house? If you do, I don’t think you have the clarity to offer any advice on the issue I’m tackling and thinking through.
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