Well put. Your argument for Spider Balls was very well thought out, and refrained from the emotional responses that this topic usual produces. Personally I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to attack you and resort to the infantile name calling that most discussion on this topic tends to devolve into. Instead I will say that I understand and appreciate your point of view and the fact that even though it is an unpopular opinion among many now days to have, you expressed your opinion without trying to assume some sort of moral high ground and proceeded to explain the scientific method in which you base your opinion on, much of which seems extremely valid, but as you said, there really is not enough data accumulated one way or another. Most of the debate I've seen on the subject was based on pure emotion and not science and as a result it led to the inevitable character assassination and child mentality of name calling when someone on either side of the debate didnt have anything constructive to put forth and felt that their opinion was the only right one and was unwilling to even try to understand the other side of the discussion, and so like Americans seem to do on all topics anymore tried to resort to verbal bullying in order to WIN an argument that without more data is unwinable. Thank you Clint for being an awsome human being who is willing to still act like a mature adult and act rationally instead of reacting emotionally. Your stinkin rad bro!!
@ClintsReptiles
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this comment! It is so refreshing to hear voices of reason in such unreasonable times.
@matthewjackson9908
3 жыл бұрын
I agree with you the video was very well thought ought and had good evidence to back up his reasonings
@Itsmoraka
2 жыл бұрын
you’re*
@Rattus-Norvegicus
2 жыл бұрын
I had a Spider Ball before I was aware of the issues surrounding them. It did exhibit a particularly strange behavior in that it would start exploring and slithering up the side of the enclosure, but it would only go up 8 inches or so then would start leaning back and start waving back and forth in the air. He also had minor wobble but it wasn't pronounced. I ended up sending him to live with a keeper/breeder that I knew would take care of him better than I could. My point though is that other than those few issues he was a happy healthy snake, and I believe she did breed him once or twice so by all accounts he was a successful snake. Now, having said that I would never purchase another one from a breeder unless it was a rescue, and I'd never breed it.
@alicecain4851
2 жыл бұрын
@@Itsmoraka thank you. It was killing me.
@ilijamitrevski1210
5 жыл бұрын
Breeding pugs and bulldogs should be frowned upon to be honest.
@k.bsworldofpets4574
5 жыл бұрын
I agree
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
Add king Charles cavilier spaniels as well...
@derpro8125
5 жыл бұрын
I think they're pretty good dog breeds if you want a pet, so I disagree. I do frown upon breeding pit bulls, though.
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
@@derpro8125 So the dogs that have genetic issues to the point they slowly choke themselves to death are fine, but the dogs that get a bad rep from the media and people training them to be agressive shouldn't be bred...? Care to explain?
@ilijamitrevski1210
5 жыл бұрын
@@derpro8125 idk man Pitbull's are much healthier and there are other pet dogs that are much better than pugs and bulldogs. They can hardly breathe, have terrible joints and can't give birth properly. Much worse than a spider ball. Edit: typeo
@WickedWildlife
5 жыл бұрын
Obviously here in Australia I can only really relate to the wobble in jaguar carpet Pythons, my concern isn’t the wobble so much as what it represents, the point at which looks could become more important then welfare, it makes me worry that in another 100 years we are going to see the same issues that dogs have, not the issues such as lop ears but traits many breeds have such as epilepsy, inability to give birth naturally and things like that. Dogs to me shouldn’t be an example so much as a warning
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Very good points. I'll give them some sincere consideration. Thank you.
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
Yea but they are domesticated animal. They exist because human exist.
@switchtheflip9422
5 жыл бұрын
@@yulusleonard985 so it's OK to breed them to have poor quality of life? I think I'm missing your point.
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
@@switchtheflip9422 The one decide their quality of live is the keeper. They are domesticated animals. You buy them to make you happy not to release them in the wild.
@switchtheflip9422
5 жыл бұрын
@@yulusleonard985 if an animal has tumors covering its body and suffers from near constant seizures, because you bred for certain asthetic traits, the animals quality of life suffers regardless of what you do.
@zl1388
5 жыл бұрын
Don’t let snake breeding turn into dog breeding. We have hurt so many dogs that way
@aaaphaan
4 жыл бұрын
*coughs in pug and basset hound*
@tymandude1510
4 жыл бұрын
We've hurt the majority of dog breeds with it even some that you wouldn't are damaged. German Shepherds for instance don't look like they would have issues by they are incredibly prone to developing hip issues later on in life because we bread them to have a really slopped back because "looked nice". Then there's the more obvious ones like Bulldogs, Basset Hounds, Pugs, Shar Peis, Boxers, Bulk Terriers, French Bulldogs, Dachshunds, and many others who are less noticeable like Cocker Spaniels, Saint Bernards, and many more. I would say adopt dogs whenever possible but if you are really wanting a certain type of dog at least get cross breeds because they suffer from far less issues than pure bred dogs and it doesn't encourage the further degeneration of these breeds. Alternatively but a lot more rare find a working line breeder who basically breed the dogs to what they were before we messed them up and actually were used for work. Finally some breeds are actually still healthy working dog breeds. Basically look into breeds the AKC has and don't adopt any of them. All the responsible breeder societies of a certain breed basically told the AKC to screw off because they didn't want their dogs to be messed up. Jack Russells, English Shepherds, Redbone Coonhounds are all great examples of breeds that have kept their working ability.
@lukemccowan2342
4 жыл бұрын
@@tymandude1510First of all the breeds you mentioned are AKC breeds. It is easier to get a healthy dog if you can get the dog as a puppy and get access to health records of parents, regardless of it being a mix or registered purebred. Mix breeds are just as likely to inherit bad traits as good ones, so health records are just as important. Good breeders have them and bad ones don't. People making mixed "designer" dogs more often dont. They rely on people thinking that a mixed dog is automatically healthier just like what you said. People should adopt shelter dogs, and I have done so in the past, but you can't know the odds of that dog developing eye or joint problems and that is a risk people take.
@reic2566
4 жыл бұрын
Big this
@michaelkeha
4 жыл бұрын
Should humans with hereditary conditions be precluded from breeding?
@justme0910
5 жыл бұрын
While I understand your take on the issue, I respectfully disagree. Regardless of the species, no aesthetic concern should ever trump the well-being of the animal, regardless of how minor the problems may be. In my opinion, morphs with commonly known negative side-effects should never be bred just to give someone the pleasure of looking at or owning something "pretty" or "special". That's something you can do with plants, not sentient creatures capable of suffering.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Totally fair. Thank you for sharing and for taking the time to listen and disagree politely :)
@wolfstone6495
5 жыл бұрын
fair point, however it can also be determined that people should stop having children because in all genetic lines there is a chance of having a genetic issue. Its important to note that most people love the animal not the color: that just a secondary plus. To me spiders are fine as pets because it gives them a chance to have a life. That life would not have been possible in the wild. Same as if current human populations lived in the wild. Most children are not adequate and would die. We need to see the scenario as a mutation that accrued and breed through and is being isolated to hopefully perfect care environments making the morph just as rightful to life as any other morph. Not trying to argue just give you something to ponder and see your point on it.
@voidofspaceandtime4684
5 жыл бұрын
+Dakota The main point is, with spider balls, all of them have a highly elevated chance of bad wobble. It's in the genes way more than other snakes. I've heard that there have even been attempts to unlink this issue through further breeding and is just isn't happening. To put this back to people, it's like forcing people with ALS to exclusively reproduce with others that have the disorder.
@leroywakens5570
5 жыл бұрын
Inda Co oh so plants don’t get the same treatment you know bananas trees were genetically modified for us to have “good food” or “delicious food” plants and trees are just as important as animals
@voidofspaceandtime4684
5 жыл бұрын
+Leroy 1. Plants don't feel pain 2. Plants don't have brains Thus they are basically equal to bacteriums morally. The issue comes into play the environmental damage that terribly modified plants may have on the environment if let loose.
@illoney5663
5 жыл бұрын
Personally, I think that things that risk giving an animal a reduced quality of life should not be intentionally bred. I haven't personally seen enough information regarding spider ball pythons to have a strong opinion either way, but I'll err on the side of caution and would personally not breed them. There are animals with bigger problems, however. Pugs and bulldogs namely, whom, due to human breeding, have severe health issues. Same goes for other animal breeds with similar problems(just mentioned pugs and bulldogs since those were the first that came to mind). Edit: Typo.
@prcervi
5 жыл бұрын
I don't like spider bp's, their issues are just a deal breaker. I also hold the same opinion on heavily deformed dog breeds, the ones that can't breath/bad skeletons/inability to safely breed... I really just don't like the breeds that couldn't survive without intensive human care... Poor breeding is just a thing i will never enjoy, more power to the people going into it knowing exactly what they're getting into but i would not even with all the knowledge in the world...
@AP-uc7oz
3 жыл бұрын
Same reason I will never own a chihuahua or pug
@elliot6252
2 жыл бұрын
The issue isn't the specific dog. Let's take pugs for example. They often have breathing issues. This is not the pug's fault, it's because they are overbred. Personally I think we shouldn't be against pugs, we should be against pug breeders because they are causing more harm to the pug population.
@tbskates
2 жыл бұрын
this is a answer I truly respect so many people say spider gene is terrible. then have no problems with pugs or French bull dogs.
@chadachi3970
2 жыл бұрын
@@elliot6252 The issue with pugs is that they are not supposed to look the way they do or have those breathing issues at all, they have them because people bred them to be like that because "awe that's cute" and it's a case where people value looks > health of an animal. If the breeding of pugs to make them look as such did not harmfully impact their lives, nobody would have an issue with it. It's the same thing with Spider BP. However if breeders were able to find a way to keep that look while also removing the genetic defects of the animal, then that is what we should be striving for.
@elliot6252
2 жыл бұрын
@@chadachi3970 I agree completely.
@zombei_kid
5 жыл бұрын
As someone who has a genetic disorder that causes me to shake, it's really not a fun life. The shaking can make your muscles hurt very badly. (I've gotten sore arms just from stirring something for too long.) I get that wobble is not quite the same but lack of control over various parts of your body isn't fun. (Also the feeding thing may be related to burning more calories leads to more feeding response? Spiders do move more than a normal BP.)
@conradkorbol
5 жыл бұрын
This is true, but disabilities are hard becusee we are a social species with a lot of responsibility to our society. The society typically isn’t understanding and then tells us people with disabilities we should feel bad becusee they can’t imagine what it’s like. This is not to undermine your pain, but rather to show that society expecting everyone to conform and then telling us mentally to feel bad and guilt us and make us feel like a burden is the problem. Snakes do not have this. Snakes are being taken care of and thus don’t have the same issues. This being said I think breeding animals for how they look is wrong. At least with dogs and cats it has been largely bad.
@zombei_kid
5 жыл бұрын
@@conradkorbol Society isn't what makes me feel bad, its my disorder that causes PHYSICAL PAIN. Not having control over your limbs be it in a major or minor way can be stressful in itself and can be very painful.
@conradkorbol
5 жыл бұрын
Zomb well I don’t have full control in a minor way. I just find I have to be a lot slower and careful about things. I don’t notice unless other people are around me and judging me. Tho I don’t have the physical pain. I can imagine having both being stressful.
@NaraMouse101
5 жыл бұрын
The thing that convinces me that spiders aren't stressed or in pain is the eating. Ball pythons will refuse to eat if they're stressed, this is regarded as fact and I've never heard anything from any keeper to suggest that it isn't true. BP are know to be one of the pickiest species of snakes that are commonly kept as pets. They will stress starve themselves to death. Being hungry wouldn't cause them to eat if they were experiencing constant stress. I think that you're missing a major distinction between your condition and a spider's wobble. It sounds like you shake all the time and the overexertion of your muscles cause you pain? (You didn't specify what your condition is so I'm guessing, please correct me if I'm wrong) Spiders only shake when they're holding themselves up. They don't shake when they're at rest or when just moving across the ground. They don't even shake all the time when they're muscles are engaged; for example the spider that Clint is holding is using muscles all along its body to hold onto his arm/hand and it's body is not shaking. Wobble is not uncontrollable muscles spasms. Wobble is a balancing issue.
@zombei_kid
5 жыл бұрын
@@NaraMouse101 I still wonder about the food thing to be honest. I've seen animals in pretty poor condition continue to eat? Idk, it seems like not the best indicator, especially an animal that has lived that way its whole life? And while I do shake MOST of the time, it's significantly worse when I'm moving or holding something or if I haven't eaten recently. But it also affects my ability to balance. (Mine is specifically a neurological disorder, which is what Spiders are believed to have.) I know they aren't the same but I just can't imagine breeding something KNOWING it will have a defect that could or maybe does cause pain/discomfort. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well at all.
@Mykeul33
5 жыл бұрын
Hi clint. Very good video as always. As a scientist myself I tend to agree withyour approach on this topic. However, if says the hypothesis of spider ball python developing a wobble, or having it get worse, is in fact linked to poor care of the animal (as seen in many rescues), I do think breeding them becomes a problem. See, in a perfect world where people would always take great care of their animals, I wouldn't have a problem with breeding spider ball pythons. But we both know we arn't living in this world, and they are some spider ball pythons being sold that will be poorly taken care of. That on his own is a problem, but particularly breeding a snake which will end up getting even worse if taken care of poorly is another one. So in the end, to me, in a perfect world yes, i'd totally agree with you, but in this case I have to say I don't. We know some of these snakes will end up having poor care, and the snake's health might get even worse in some cases because of the spider gene, to the point where unlike many snakes, they might do poorly as a rescue after (in the case of really debilitating wobble, which does happen). I think as people who understand the issue, and potential breeders, it is our responsability to ensure the snake's future will be as good as possible, and if there is a chance that bad care will lead to even worse problem because of said gene, I think that's an issue. I do of course understand your stance on this and respect, and I hope I made mine clear. Cheers
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
That is totally fair. How do you think that this position applies to the vast majority of snake species that are more difficult to keep successfully than are spider ball pythons?
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
Rescue animals are not good example because it depends on the previous keeper.
@Mykeul33
5 жыл бұрын
@@yulusleonard985 I actually took rescue here as an example, and assuming the animal actually was taken care of poorly. So I agree it's not a good example because they are a lot of unknown parameters here, by resue I mostly meant animal that have been taken care of poorly in the past, and are now in proper care.
@Mykeul33
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles I'll start by saying that I believe some species of reptiles are way to easily available compared to how difficult it is to provide them with good care, and I know you share this opinion in the case of some monitors as well. It is not a stretch (I think) to say this applies to some species of snakes as well. With that being said, my issues was that spider ball python, when taken care of poorly, will end up being worse than say a "regular" ball python with the same care. That is at least the hypothesis as far as the wobble getting worse in concerned. So that's why in my opinion we shouldn't necessarily breed them,. Altho I should say, we shouldn't breed them AS MUCH. If everytime a spider ball tpython is bred, it's guaranted to be taken care of properly, then breed away! Now if we compare this to other snakes. For example should we be breeding specy of snake A if they're much harder to take care of that specy B. Well, yes and no. What are the other differencies between said snakes? One of the issue many people have with the spider ball python is that the only (or at least) main appeal to them is the pattern/color. So the question becomes: should we be breeding snake A if snake B is similar in all aspects except color/pattern, and B is easier to take care of, or if it's care is not met, it won't suffer as much? I believe the answer to that is yes. But that's assuming it's purely for look. If we take other things into account, then it becomes more complicated. Saying people shouldn't breed a snake because people should just get a ball python instead as it's easier to take care of is obviously wrong. But if someone wanted a particular reptile, that is hard to take care of, and you knew of a specy that is very similar in behavious and appearance, a much easier, wouldn't you strongly recommend the easier one? And in the case, wouldn't it be better is the easier one was overall more available? My problem with this explanation is that it's kind of a problem to have a general consensus on this, even for me, and it should all be a case by case scenario. Kind of a poor answer, but I will say that after watching your video and trying to answer your question, my overall opinion is a bit different. I do still think it's not great spider ball python are bred so much, but i'm not completly against their very existence (unlike some people). I do think in the end we have a pretty similar opinion, and if there was say spectrum of opinion of it, with one side people who are completly against spider ball python (say red side, not calling left and right as I don't want this to be politcal somehow)), and one side that has absolutly no problem with it (blue side), we'd end up being different shades of purple, I'd be a bit more red while you'd be a bit more blue :D. Hope I made myself clear Clint!
@Bloodhoundfostermom
5 жыл бұрын
110 % respectfully agree.... spider balls are a " special needs" pet every detail of their special needs absolutely NEED to be disclosed and discussed before the purchaser or adoptive home can make a educated decision to bring it Into their home and give it the proper care it needs ....from feeding tips to the proper type enclosure and every single detail it takes to keep a special needs pet healthy ....in my experience most people aren't willing to go that extra mile it takes to care for an animal with special needs.....a spider may take extra time and care to feed because of the wobble ....most folks assume up front you can throw a live mouse in the enclosure and the spider ball will eat ....not the case with most spider balls ....they need more attention and time in most cases need to be fed f/t .....if people aren't educated up front about the special needs especially in feeding the animal ends up starving to death because it does take patience and extra steps to keep spiders and other special needs pets healthy....also certain enclosure types are better than others for a spider ( shoerter is better than taller) in this case....in the end all that may happen as a spider matures absolutely needs to be disclosed up front ....in my opinion you are doing a disservice selling or adopting a spider out to a first time snake owner ..... educate without sugar coating what can and may happen first so that the person interested in getting a snake can make the best educated decision for their home and time they have to give the pet ....as I said before those who will give the extra care and time to a snake or any pet for that matter are few and far between ....people want and expect the " no brainier " pet and if it turned out they don't get the " no brainier" pet they expect their spider to be than therefore they are not properly cared for because people just aren't willing to put the extra time and effort it takes into keeping pets with special needs healthy and happy...then they end up dead,or in the brink of death before rehomed ....when people are buying other various snakes say a retic or a carpet or blood ......they know exactly what they are purchasing UP FRONT before they purchase .... unfortunately this isn't the case with the spider ball people are buying them and selling them without educating on the special needs of the spider and if they do talk about it at all it is way more that sugar coated than what the reality of what can happen
@Dr.Jiggles
3 жыл бұрын
I'm super impressed at how engaging and captivating Clint's presenting is. I just spent 51 minutes and 2 seconds across 3 videos learning about the genetics and moral dilemmas of breeding spider ball pythons and it felt like 10 minutes while still remaining super informing.
@lindarock1072
Жыл бұрын
Same
@dusterrant9332
5 жыл бұрын
Surprised to find the comment section isn't a dumpster fire. I've been rather neutral on this subject myself, with the caveat that I wouldn't ever personally want to own a spider morph, but it's good to see a video that shows the other side.
@mantatsubasa1342
5 жыл бұрын
I'm glad the comments are pretty chill!
@beans5738
5 жыл бұрын
I'm just glad comments haven't been removed yet
@Jarblyy
5 жыл бұрын
BlairPhoenix Clint just inspires intellectual, respectful conversation. It’s wonderful
@jdm8702
5 жыл бұрын
I expected it to be chaos but it's pretty controlled.
@melskunk
5 жыл бұрын
The most chaos is an inner argument in a comment thread about pitbulls XD
@reptielenshowassen1486
3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting video! Personally, I am still against breeding spider balls, simply because I don't support the idea of intentionally breeding animals with a defect. Sure, a white snake couldn't live in the wild, but it's a pet, so I really don't mind that, but I do believe we should breed healthy animals. However, I found your argument very good and very interesting. I can see where you're coming from and I can agree with a lot of what you said. This actually reminds me of rats, since I am a rat breeder, and rats with red or pink eyes have pretty terrible sight. I never really had an issue with them, but this made me think of how I feel about the whole thing and I will no longer intentionally breed red eyed rats. I know that's very unrelated, haha, but still wanted to mention it.
@neo-filthyfrank1347
2 жыл бұрын
"my life is kind of crappy so I wish I was never born"
@Imugi007
2 жыл бұрын
@@neo-filthyfrank1347 what an idiotic arguement. Something that never existed has no clue it ever could've existed. It's not like they are saying they're gonna kill any red eyed rats that they unintentionally breed. They just won't intentionally breed for a defect, which is their own moral choice. That rat doesn't care because it can't care, BECAUSE IT NEVER EXISTED. There's like telling a teenager to have unprotected sex because the baby that might be born from the sex would rather be born to a mother that's immature and not ready for a baby then never be born at all, which is fuckin stupid kuz the baby never existed in the first place and you cant even have known that a baby would've been produced in the first place. 🤦♂️
@tbskates
2 жыл бұрын
how do you feel about pugs? they have a genetic defect where their eyes can pop out and have terrible nasal passages creating the snorts and snoring a lot of people find "cute". no disrespect just pointing out there are many captive animals that have "defects" a lot of them are much worse than the spider gene.
@toadmaster6883
2 жыл бұрын
@@neo-filthyfrank1347 Yeah, exactly, don't breed animals that are going to struggle because of a defect that can't be bred out.
@alyssastickels1324
2 жыл бұрын
@@neo-filthyfrank1347 what is your point here?
@marilyn4568
5 жыл бұрын
Hi Clint I like you and your channel. I thought a lot about writing this comment. I understood your opinion on this topic. But here is my controversial opinion. I am physically disabled. I love my life and I am different. But because you do things differently and you do normal things like eat use the bathroom and sleep and wake up it does not mean you are not suffering. Some suffering may not be visual to people who don't have the condition. This is my opinion and I am not a scientist or a breeder. I don't own any snakes. I am just looking at it from the view of some one who is different. So if you can avoid it then you should avoid it.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for sharing. I really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
@conradkorbol
5 жыл бұрын
My question is how much is physical vs emotional pain. Snakes aren’t social. So I wonder if it’s as bad. Not that I think we should breed snakes for how they look. I think that’s wrong. But as a neurologically impaired person I can’t help but wonder if saying “disability=bad” is self hatred. Roughly half of all the major changes changes have come from people who are handicapped in some way. I think snakes cannot be compared to humans tho.
@marilyn4568
5 жыл бұрын
@@conradkorbol People who don't have a condition don't understand. There are other hardship people don't understand because they haven't struggled with a disability. It's about struggling with basic functions and depending on others to do things. Sometimes despite explaining things people don't understand how to do what you want to do. When you have a condition you suffer illnesses even doctors don't understand. We go through alot especially with able body people. Don't get me wrong please. I love living and I wouldn't change things but I would not wish anybody to struggle especially an animal who can't talk.
@conradkorbol
5 жыл бұрын
MPuzzle World I hear you for sure And if your disability causes you physical pain (not sure if it does) it does make things harder. I know that there are things that are more difficult. I just wonder if a snake has the self doubt and if the world meets there needs if it the same thing? I am not trying to attack you. This issue is complicated and I feel like everyone is trying to simplify it to disability bad or who cares? I think that it’s has to be vastly different if your whole perceived world is accommodating you.
@marilyn4568
5 жыл бұрын
@@conradkorbol exactly. I am not trying to attack Clint either but he made sound like it is a neurological problem it is find he\she eats like a the other snakes goes to the bathroom like the others and acts normal. But Clint doesn't really know if the snake is really okay. I respect his opinion and I am not a scientist or a breeder but if you can't find out ahead that the animal is coming with issues it shouldn't be continued to breed. Because you know that not all humans will know how to care for it. It is normal animals and humans mistreat them.
@patrickobrien5311
5 жыл бұрын
Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Floppy ears and color changes and playful attitudes are not comparable to spider wobble. Things that are only detrimental in the wild don't really have bearing when it's a pet. Spider wobble doesn't always but can cause problems in captivity, while a pure white python wouldn't last in the wild but is fine in captivity. I'd also agree that certain breeds of dogs shouldn't be bred for similar reasons (eg pugs, shar pei, etc).
@disfuncted2412
5 жыл бұрын
that is a good point man
@GinEric84
5 жыл бұрын
It seems super disingenuous for him to even compare the two.
@tonyamitchell2143
5 жыл бұрын
@Patrick O'Brien *Perfectly Stated
@staceyroberts3468
5 жыл бұрын
It’s the only time I’ve been a little bummed by Clint 😔 I’ve watched so many times at their failed hits at feeding. Just darting all around the mice but not getting it. Just seems pitiful to me??
@GinEric84
5 жыл бұрын
@@staceyroberts3468 I do not understand why anyone would even attempt to defend creating animals with central nervous system defects because they look cool
@oliviapasolli5600
4 жыл бұрын
Clint, I've been liking your videos. It's interesting to me that everyone compares this issue to dog breeding. And while YOUR dog has floppy ears (a trait that as you pointed out is very often linked to the domestication process), there are plenty of domestic dog breeds with pointy ears as well. As someone very involved in the dog fancy, any responsible breeder is breeding for structure (the dog is built correctly to do it's intended purpose without breaking down), does the dog have a desireable temperment (because as I'm sure you know temperment is highly influenced by genetics), and we even do genetic testing to test for common genetic health problems so we can avoid them in our dogs. In my breed (beagles) as well as others, there are some issues of epilepsy that pop up in some dogs. We do not have a test for this, but we are working really hard to try and isolate it. But breeders exclude not only that dog from the genepool, but we go back and look at the whole pedigree, and try and see if there are overlaps with dogs used. And we stay away from breeding them. No one would intentionally breed a dog that could produce offspring with epilepsy (another neurological condition) even though the parents can be totally normal, and epileptic dogs can live normal lives and have a good quality of life. (one of my own dogs has seizures, he was a rescue. I love him,he has a great quality of life and only has maybe 2 seizures a year, but I would never wish that on any dog, or any dog owner.) Just because an animal CAN have a good quality of life with a condition, doesn't mean we should be producing it on purpose. We should still love and care for the animal that exsists, provided it's condition isn't so severe it drastically impacts quality of life.... but WHY purposley produce animals with conditions that could potentially cause severe issues?
@samanthaclark2863
3 жыл бұрын
Bravo, well said
@Hellosnubby
3 жыл бұрын
I cannot imagine what people would say if someone wanted to have human offspring with neurological diseases. I had a spider rescue once that had to be forcefed nearly every single time. It would strike itself when presented with food. I could have curled into a ball and died of sympathy. In the end, it was time to let the spider rest.
@hadesoneiroi
3 жыл бұрын
This comment deserves more credit
@solfulart4007
3 жыл бұрын
Period!
@ultimategohan1551
3 жыл бұрын
Do you have a website for your beagles?
@katelillo1932
5 жыл бұрын
I’m against the breeding of spider ball pythons, but I will say that I really appreciate you sharing your opinion of them with us. If we can put the actual issue aside for a moment and look at this from a different angle, I think that the ability to discuss topics respectfully and calmly with others who hold differing opinions is something we should really strive for in our community as reptile keepers, and indeed, in the world in general. 💚
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I can't heart this comment enough times!
@MuffFlux
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, we should... We should also stop breeding retarded snakes.
@SceneGirlPanda
5 жыл бұрын
Totally agree with you! Sometimes this community can be very harsh
@staceyroberts3468
5 жыл бұрын
Kate Lillo I agree with u 100%!!!!! I’ve seen so many circumstances of groups of haters for one person or another. This way of discussion with Clint has been so refreshing. I do think one reason is because Clint is very respected plus the way he handled the conversation. I respected him even tho I feel different about it. If u have a person jumping at a snakes face, upsetting it and stressing it out.... they get less respect and ppl want to charge on them. I could never charge On someone who handles and treats reptiles with so much respect 👍🏻 I gotta say, Clint is one awesome guy!!!! There’s nobody else like him ☺️
@staceyroberts3468
5 жыл бұрын
Mrs B. 😆😆
@DragonFang409
5 жыл бұрын
I usually agree with you, but I think we just don’t see eye to eye on this topic. I understand where you’re coming from, but for me it’s a similar situation to breeding pugs. People think pugs are cute and fun, and although you can care for them by taking them to facilities to widen their nostrils, this doesn’t solve the problem. I believe it goes the same for spiders. I’m not going to argue with anyone, because everyone should have their own opinion, but this is a topic I’m pretty uneducated in so I’m sure many people here could tell me about all the things I’m saying wrong. I really want to emphasise that you are a brilliant pet owner, one of the best out there, and I understand and take into consideration every point you make. It’s so easy to come off as rude or close minded in comments, so I desperately want you to know that, despite my disagreement with you, I think you are a brilliant person. But no matter what, I still see it as unnecessary suffering for the sake of making an animal look nice. This is an edit long after this comment was posted, but I think it’s and important point to add on, so if you have already replied to my original comment and now feel you disagree with me, that’s totally fine. I feel like the comparison of dogs isn’t right, it’s as if we found a way to create the most beautiful human, but they have pointed ears or an elongated nose. It wouldn’t physically affect us in any way. With the spider, it’s more like we found how to make the most beautiful human, but every one of them had a limp. It doesn’t necessarily stop them from continuing with their life, but it is debilitating and makes life just that bit harder.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Totally fair. Thank you for sharing.
@davidls187
5 жыл бұрын
If you see a more knowledgeable person disagreeing with you, it might be a good idea to do some good research and see the sources where their info is coming from!
@wyattmilliken3320
5 жыл бұрын
@@davidls187 This isn't a topic of pure science though, is it bub?
@jesusbeloved3953
5 жыл бұрын
DragonFang 409 I think you made your point very well and very respectfully! Well done!
@tiffanyl4829
5 жыл бұрын
It's all a spectrum and shouldn't be viewed through an absolutist lens. Our quality of life isn't based on any single condition we have. Snakes don't have inner conversations. They know food water and safety. The wobble in captivity hasn't been proven to cause pain nor prevent them from eating and meeting their survival requirements. It's about good care more than genetics.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Well hi there! I really appreciate the level of polite conversation that has been occurring since the release of our two videos on spider last Saturday. The videos have over 1,600 comments combined. Sorry I have not been able to respond to them all. However, I have been trying to keep up with reading them, and I have noticed a few things that are frequently being misunderstood about what I had to say. I’d like to try to clear them up so that I am not misunderstood. Sorry if I wasn’t sufficiently clear originally. First, this video is why I’m okay with spider ball pythons, not why I think that they are the best and everyone should breed them. There is one good study that I had read before and that is posted many times in the comments. In that study they polled breeders of spiders about the wobble, and then animal welfare researchers gave their analysis. In that analysis, the majority of animal welfare researchers concluded that there wasn’t enough evidence to make a call one way or the other about spider. I am with them. New evidence could sway me one way or the other. Second, my example of the dog is not to say that what we see in dogs and what we see in spiders are the same or are equivalent. It is only to demonstrate that just because a mutation has an impact on behavior, that does not mean that it is “bad”. We have to analyze it further. As far as comparing wobble to autism, I am with you in finding that to be a comparison made in poor taste, and one that is largely not comparable with wobble. They aren’t the same thing. This is actually a misconception that I was hearing a lot that I was trying to clear up. I was only saying that in one aspect it is not entirely inaccurate. You can’t conclude that just because something or someone is different, that this means that they are different in a way that is “bad”. Just for the record, I have never bought a snake because it had spider in it. I have bought snakes that had other genes I was looking for, and after carefully inquiring as to the severity of the wobble, I determined that spider in those snakes was not a deal breaker. I have only produced one clutch of spiders, and I kept all but one of the spider babies. I would have kept them all, but one of my friends really wanted one of them. Many people have been encouraging me to collect the data on spiders myself, well I am. My data set is limited in size because I can’t keep more than a handful of spiders, but the experience that I have first-hand leads me to think that wobble is generally not an issue. My data set is expanded by feedback from Kevin McCurley from NERD (who was the first person to work with spider and has produced thousands over the last couple of decades) and other breeders and keepers that have more experience with spider than I have. They report on a large scale what I have seen on a small scale. Unfortunately, that is all the data we really have at this time. More would be better, and depending on what that data is, it could definitely shift my opinion to either side on this issue. Right now, my position isn’t that breeding spiders is obviously bad or obviously great. They seem to do well in captivity, so I’m open minded and awaiting further evidence. Until then, I see no reason to place any kind of restrictions on the breeding of spider. I am not afraid to breed them myself, but I am highly selective of the individuals that I would consider breeding as I would like to lessen the severity of the wobble through selective breeding as many people have suggested. It may not be possible, but so far so good. If I see aberrations, that would be new evidence that might change my mind. Again, I apologize for not being more clear originally. I did my best, but sometimes it is difficult to see where you aren’t getting your point across until you see the reactions to what you have had to say. Thank you for being such an amazing community and for doing so much to build a culture where we can have respectful and open conversations even about the most controversial of subjects. For those of you that haven't seen the second video, it can be seen here: kzitem.info/news/bejne/ypqcnJZthp6WmKw
@wh4tth3fr1g
5 жыл бұрын
Clint's Reptiles you need to pin this comment!!!
@roisinrowan1341
5 жыл бұрын
i'm autistic, and i was actually thinking about this before you brought it up. i don't think people should compare it (mostly because most people don't know anything about autism, and don't know what they're talking about), but you raise an interesting point re: different doesn't mean bad. i'd need to research more on wobble and any other problems with spiders before i came to a conclusion, but yes, the most important point is: are they suffering?
@staceyroberts3468
5 жыл бұрын
Roisin Rowan that’s what I guess is the only thing we don’t know. I would just think that it would b so stressful. My mom had something that hasn’t been heard of a lot. Tar dive dyskenisia... made her neck muscles flinch a lot and she said it stressed her out so bad and made her feel exhausted. I don’t think we could ever prove if it’s stressful to spiders??? I dunno, I do see breeders having a large percent of the ones feeling they r ok to breed.
@DUCKDUDE4100
5 жыл бұрын
Hi, autistic guy here. Please get off the "comparing neurologically disabled snakes to autistic people" bandwagon. We don't all have super powers or special skills, we're not all rain man. We have a common symptom called 'special interests' that drives us to gain knowledge in a specific field of study, which is where a lot of the super power/super knowledge misconception comes from, but not even 1% of us are savants, the vast majority of us are either intellectually disabled or socially maladjusted and that's all. Been a fan of your for ages, but I'm sick of these comparisons being made even in an attempt at positivity, it's offensive and a shitty thing to do and frankly I think you should apologise.
@Tinyvalkyrie410
5 жыл бұрын
Clint's Reptiles Is this the article you meant? www.researchgate.net/publication/262937861_Neurologic_dysfunction_in_a_ball_python_python_regius_color_morph_and_Implications_for_welfare Because if so you need to reread it. In the abstract they say this study is about proving a need for research into this issue, not about analyzing stress or quality of life in these animals. They polled 13 self selecting breeders (a admittedly tiny and biased sample size), and the data was so poor they couldn’t even analyze it. There is a worrying quote where one of those breeders reported that even severely affected snakes can be bred, which tells me people are breeding highly defective animals without regard to the neurological disorder. They also polled 28 vets and welfare experts, and their near unanimous consensus was that there was a HIGH possibility of impact to quality of life. They did not say there was not enough evidence to assume stress in these animals, they said it was causing harm. The authors noted a large difference of opinion between the two polled groups. Throughout the study, the authors referred to sources that were almost exclusively about dogs, with a few sprinkled in about reptiles that are not snakes. The only direct references to ball pythons with wobble were three KZitem videos. In their conclusion, they determined that there wasn’t enough data to come to a conclusion. It wasn’t because the data was ambiguous, they simply did not have any data. This could barely be referred to a study at all, and I’m guessing it was published simply to raise awareness that this issue exists. I initially assumed you hadn’t included a link to this study because you understood how weak it was. Here are a few important quotes from it: -This article aims to raise awareness in the animal welfare science community of the potential for welfare problems in genetic variant reptiles and to stimulate further research in this field -Quantitative methods of statistical analysis were not employed owing to the low sample sizes achieved; rather qualitative analysis was employed. -Spider offspring that lack the pattern mutation do not express wobble symptoms. Further, unaffected hatchlings may be born to severely affected females and affected offspring born to adults that have never displayed observable clinical signs. -Welfare Scientist Group Respondents (n¼28) typically perceived a moderate to high welfare effect associated with the clinical signs of the wobble condition -Although breeders generally agreed that quality of life was not significantly affected, 89% (25/28)of welfare scientists concluded a moderate to high welfare effect based on the information available.This disparity may reflect biases inherent in the respective groups. -Our historical failure to identify signs of potential welfare compromises in reptiles is probably best explained by their alien morphology and behavior -herpetoculturists implicitly considered [fecundity] demonstrated the absence of effect on quality of life. This may not be the case, as even in stressful situations, sexual activity is likely to be maintained in reptiles where the negative influences of corticosteroids on sexual endocrine function seen in many mammals do not seem to be replicated -A true assessment of effect on quality of life should be based on complete information on the effects of the condition... Further study to quantify any increase in stress experienced during feeding is therefore warranted, to support a robust assessment of the welfare implications of the condition. As for the autism comparison, you missed hard on that one. If you wanted to raise awareness of the inappropriateness of this argument, you should have done that. Instead you said this is a bad argument, now let me show you how it’s a good argument. It is also not ok to lean on the autistic superpower myth, as it is inaccurate and harmful. I don’t think you were trying to be insensitive, but it very much came across that way. Your first video on this subject from a while back was excellent. Your secondary video associated with this one was decent. This video was not. You mislead your viewers by implying there is evidence when there is none. I think you should really consider what the majority of your followers are saying. Since there is no evidence either way, we shouldn’t be risking the welfare of these animals, simply because we like the way they look. If you want to breed them without selling them, or if you want to breed them specifically to study this issue great. However, until we know more, these animals should not be sold disclaimer free for so little money that impulse buying is easy. It also bugs me that you have only liked responses that agree with you, by a vast majority, even though there are many polite, well structured arguments against you. I think it might be time to take a step back and look at your own biases.
@erinb4237
5 жыл бұрын
I feel like the comparison of the floppy ears is unfair. My floppy-eared dog's quality of life is equal to that of my bat-eared dog. The same cannot be said in many cases for spider ball pythons, as a more agreeable temperament has no real impact on their lives in a domestic setting. The wobble, however, can cause a change in quality of life regardless of whether it's a domestic setting or a wild one. It might not be the worst defect out there, but I'd think of them as the French bulldogs of the snake world. They can seem happy, but they nonetheless have a lower quality of life than a Shiba Inu or a lab. In addition to this, their continued lower quality of life is a direct result of our poor breeding decisions. I feel that the most ethical decision is to no longer breed spiders, brachiocephalic animals, or any other animals with a generally lower quality of life. Continuing to do so strikes me as INCREDIBLY selfish and frankly distasteful.
@SpiderdayNightLive
5 жыл бұрын
Came to the comments to talks about pugs and other similar with dogs. Thank you for also thinking of that comparison.
@RonanFTW
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you
@JBVG1978
5 жыл бұрын
Very well said! I agree 100%.
@zombei_kid
5 жыл бұрын
However, cats with floppy ears, (Scottish Folds), all have a form of arthritis? If I am remembering correctly. Its what causes their floppy ears. So they do suffer for their ears, differently from a cat with straight ears anyway.
@blazertundra
5 жыл бұрын
Floppy ears is more similar than you might think. I've owned multiple dog breeds and drop ears are far more prone to ear infections and wax buildup than a rose, semi-pricked, or prick ear. They trap debris and dust easily and the lack of air circulation can create humid conditions. Humidity + dust + microbes + ear wax = infections galore. Much like the spider gene, the biggest question is where the line between minor inconvenience to the animal and intentionally creating suffering lies. And that's not something you can truly answer without bringing personal convictions, emotions, and conscience into play. Personally, I tend to side with Clint's view. However at the same time, I'm not too crazy about supporting the ongoing breeding of spiders in the same way I'm not sure I want to buy a dog with large drop ears again. It's a minor, albeit unnecessary inconvenience for the animal that I can live without. However I don't think it's abuse to continue those traits, either, because the vast majority of animals with proper husbandry get on just fine.
@gabrieltriplett8981
5 жыл бұрын
From somebody who is strongly against the breeding and selling of spiders I just wanna say I love the video and not only respect but appreciate your opinion by supporting it with evidence witnessed on your own spiders
@the_animal_ark
3 жыл бұрын
Same I don’t quite agree but I understand God bless😇😇
@ramtrucks721
2 жыл бұрын
We talking about spiders or snakes?
@Thurston86
2 жыл бұрын
@@ramtrucks721 We’re talking about a breed of snake (ball python, to be specific) with a morph that is named “Spiders”. The name comes from their pattern looking similar to a spider web.
@seabassa.m.665
2 жыл бұрын
@@Thurston86 context sweety, doubt we are talking about tarantulas right now.
@seabassa.m.665
2 жыл бұрын
@ed the wrong person lol
@ilikepie2eat3
4 жыл бұрын
Have a Spider myself, I don't know how you've never heard of them being bad feeders. She certainly tries her hardest, but the wobble causes her to miss her strikes repeatedly. Other than that she seems happy, but it definitely takes a little more care to keep her healthy.
@OneTruePeanut
Жыл бұрын
I know I'm severely late on this but nobody else has responded, When saying a snake is a good or bad feeder it refers to thier food drive and not to their actual ability to aim well at the food. Your spider seems, from what you said, to have a perfectly fine food drive since she is trying to eat, a stressed snake will often refuse to eat, not ever trying to strike or even come out of wherever their hiding for a meal.
@sugarmuffin319
2 ай бұрын
@@OneTruePeanut nnnnnnot accurate
@Verdictus13
Ай бұрын
@@sugarmuffin319 What part of that wasn't accurate? The part about good feeders and food drive, or the part where a stressed snake will tend to refuse food? Because both of those are accurate.
@SceneGirlPanda
5 жыл бұрын
I don’t agree with you but I’ll respect your opinion. I think it’s immoral to breed them just for the sake of the aesthetics I can obviously go into this further and elaborate why I don’t think that we should breed the spider morph but I think this says it all :)
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Perfect. And hopefully you saw that I find that position totally respectable.
@lukastroutman4600
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah you shouldn’t purposefully breed something that will be disabled but if you already have one or want to adopt one give it a nice life however don’t breed them or buy from a breeder
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
They need to sell first.
@metalman6698
5 жыл бұрын
Let me pretense this with saying that this isn't an attempt to call you out or anything, it's just an honest question: If you think breeding something due to aesthetics is immoral, then how do you feel about like 50% of all dog breeds that have legitimate medical conditions due to selective breeding for specific physical traits? Edit: I ask this question becuase I feel like people tend to overlook stuff like this in these kind of arguments just because they've been around for so long that people just kind of accept that they are a thing and move on.
@MuffFlux
5 жыл бұрын
@@metalman6698 I personally think we shouldn't have done it. I feel culturally we are only newly becoming conscious of the processes that took place to get some animals to where they are today. I think and like to think that majority of people look back on that in a negative light. Not super negatively, but I don't think it makes people feel good to think back on how and why we have pugs. I just feel like we shouldn't be breeding naturally "useless" and many times seemingly disabled animals for the purpose of having a living painting in a glass box in their house.
@NewEnglandReptile
5 жыл бұрын
Hi Clint, this is Kevin @ NERD. Since I am the originator of the Spider gene I decided to comment. Thank you for a fine video and perspective. I just wanted to chime in that since I do breed the Spider gene I know quite a bit about all things Spider. I feel quite strongly that there has been a fair bit exaggeration regarding the wobble of the Spider gene in general. The idea that a breeder is making Spiders and has to euthanize some of them is outrageous and not something that I know of or see. I literally love the gene and most Spiders I make have a "minor" wobble which I have always found endearing but not something that I saw as a worry for the welfare of the animal. I think the severity of the Spider wobble has been over stated and made to look far more common than what I have seen. In many cases they are showing an animal with problems but the back story of that snake is never clear or even discussed. Seeing a Spider with a really bad wobble is simply RARE! People can make their minds up and claim that a breeder keeps the gene only for the money and I find that troubling. I very much enjoy the Spider gene and love those animals, it is a powerful and wonderful gene that allows me to visually create things I can only sometimes imagine! Great discussion and your words are very level! Kevin
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Kevin, I'm honored that you would choose to watch our video, and even moreso given that you don't watch KZitem. Thank you for contributing to the conversation. A lot of people are calling for more research. I agree that this would be wonderful, but it would be expensive and time-consuming and would end with thousands of snakes that were used in the study being euthanized. What you and others like you have done is as close to the perfect study as we're probably going to get. Yes, you may have a financial bias, but sometimes you have to work with the evidence that is available. There is nobody that would know better than you. You could be a total scumbag that has concealed the truth to make an extra $35 per snake selling spiders, but I see no evidence of that. I have respected you for years, and don't imagine that will change anytime soon. Hopefully we get to meet at Tinley.
@57andyp
5 жыл бұрын
Hi Kevin. Many thanks and respect from the UK. We keep spiders too and there are certainly a couple in our breeding plan for this and subsequent years. We see very little wobble or disorientation in any of our collection and a lot of good potential. Great to hear your opinion on this video and thanks to Clint for raising the subject. Cheers all!
@dvlexotics2177
5 жыл бұрын
That's right out of the mouth of the man the myth the legend the evil morph god. If kevin who is an avid animal lover and conservationist says he is ok with the spider gene that's good enough for me. In saying that I've also bred the spider gene for many many years and the wobble has been greatly over exadurated I'd say less than 10% have a noticeable wobble as hatchlings. Now I can't say what the percentage is as they grow because I'm only in contact with a few of the customers but I'd be willing to say with proper care and due diligence the odds are about the same as they grow to adulthood.
@DarkseidTCG
5 жыл бұрын
Clint said my opinion best. If we did this for money we wouldnt take any risks for the extra $30 spider adds to a snakes value. We work with spider because the animal is awesome and the "risks" are overstated. No one is getting rich off of spiders. Theres way better morphs for making money.
@staceyroberts3468
5 жыл бұрын
Clint's Reptiles I keep hearing how special spiders are and how so many breeders love them. What exactly is different about spiders besides how they effect patterns? I’m asking for anyone’s opinion that breed or have them. I’m just curious because a lot of breeders love them. Also I’ve seen ppl say the stripe morph will have the same as a spider. Is that true or false?
@alicet5123
5 жыл бұрын
Some people with autism are severely disabled and can't even speak. I hate this myth that everyone with autism has a mild condition. Autism can be absolutely debilitating.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Totally true.
@christianlifesofpets8549
5 жыл бұрын
I have autism
@ashleyedwards8002
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles i have high functioning autisim
@ashleyedwards8002
5 жыл бұрын
@@christianlifesofpets8549 nice. me too!
@Violet-Lily
5 жыл бұрын
Also the myth that everyone with autism has some 'extra ability'. I can also say from experience, would those that do have this give it up to be normal? Some of them, hell yes they would.
@caitwn8548
5 жыл бұрын
I appreciate that you made this video. You're clear and respectful, and I hope the comments are the same. However, as a fellow scientist, I strongly disagree with you. I understand that those who support the breeding of Spider Ball Pythons want very much to explain why it's fine to continue breeding and selling them. But none of the information here, even when it's framed as objective data, is compelling when weighed against the reality that people are knowingly continuing a genetic line that has clearly demonstrated a link to a neurological disorder. The following is only personal observation, but for what it's worth, I worked my way through undergrad and grad school as a veterinary technician - and in many cases, animals will not show signs of distress until their discomfort is at extreme levels. Since human conditions like autism were introduced to the discussion, I'll share a quote from a friend of mine with a circulatory disorder that affects his peripheral vision and balance: "I look normal. I act normal (I think!). But on most days I deal with being miserable for at least part of the time".
@Bearded_B
3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for sharing and sorry to hear about your friend's disorder. I don't mean to joke or offend with what comes next, apologies if it comes across as insensitive but I have to ask...would your friend prefer it if the government or some regulatory body had prevented his parents from mating because they knew that doing so would result in his disorder? Yes he struggles every day, but is his life not worth that struggle? If a snake can convince a human to care for it, feed it, keep it safe from predators, and bring a mate to it in order to perpetuate the species, all by displaying an interesting color pattern coupled with a disorder that in some cases causes some relatively unknown degree of suffering, then should it be allowed to? Who are we to answer this question? So much suffering is experienced by all species, who are we to decide which suffering is allowed and which should be eradicated and at what expense?
@MurasakiMonogatari
11 ай бұрын
@@Bearded_B Wow, comparing humans having kids to humans purposefully breeding other animals with known deformities. So, you believe the animal has an equal say in the matter? They're given the choice to evaluate the risk? As we can't stop all suffering, might as well introduce some more? It's ok they're suffering a bit, cos they can "convince" humans to take care of them?😂😂
@ii8283
10 ай бұрын
@@Bearded_BI have autism and I can personally say I'm really glad nobody decided to 'eradicate my suffering' on my behalf before I was born.
@friskyunicorn21
2 жыл бұрын
I appreciate your take on the spider morph. I still am leaning towards it needing to be regulated more. I’ve seen videos of really bad wobbles from spiders and them corkscrewing constantly and it is heartbreaking. While some are “okay and somewhat normal” is not a justified reason to breed them if a large population of them having severe issues that do hinder their ability to thrive and eat. Self injury is incredibly high in spiders, because they lack the coordination to strike their meals properly and…lach onto themselves. I think until people can do more actual research, breeders should stop pumping them out so much. Breeding at the end of the day is about money, and they will sell what is popular, no matter if some animals they sell have severe debilitating issues. I’m glad not all spiders suffer from this issue, but the genetic components of spiders leaves some of these snakes with difficult lives. I’m completely against the breeding of smushed faced dog breeds (pugs, boxers, bulldogs, etc), because it gives them a lower quality of life. I view this as somewhat of the same issue. Breeders need to do more research, instead of selling breeds/morphs just because they sell fast and for higher prices. Quality of life is really all i care about in these situations.
@alexbelmonte564
5 жыл бұрын
I appreciate your well thought out argument, however I still disagree. If we are in direct control of the breeding process I see no reason to produce an animal that has a high probably to have a neurological disorder. Aesthetic is not that important. I feel as though the dog comparison is unfair. Dogs were purposely bred to complete tasks whereas snakes are bred to just look a certain way. While in the wild dogs with floppy ears have a disadvantage the truth is those floppy ears allow them to better interact with humans, which was the intended purpose. I don’t see what the intended purpose of the spider ball python is, other than aesthetic.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I'm not saying that spider and dogs are the same, I'm just saying that because a mutation has an impact on the behavior and not only the appearance of an animal, that does not mean that it is "bad". Whether it is bad, good, or neutral still needs to be determined.
@hollytastic
4 жыл бұрын
Pugs have health issues from nose to tail. And were only bred to be “companion dogs.” Originally for royals in China. (Literally because of how they looked.) I don’t know that much about Spider BP because I’m new to reptiles. But I wanted to point that out. Obviously that wasn’t the comparison made, but it easily could be. Though it probably wouldn’t help to strengthen the argument. I’ve met a lot of pugs who struggle just to breathe.
@taylormay9938
4 жыл бұрын
What data have you seen to support the hypothesis that spiders have a higher probability than any other ball python? I see a ton of people on here really giving him a hard time, but none basing their arguments on any actual data. I mean I can't find anything at all online other than hearsay on forums to support this argument.
@ladyvoldything
3 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles Clint my dude, have you ever had vertigo? Not just dizziness, but actual real VERTIGO? It's horrible. It's physically unpleasant and incredibly distressing, even debilitating.
@wyattmilliken3320
5 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry Clint, but in my opinion every single breeder of spiders is just choosing aesthetic over the health of an animal. It's kind of interesting also that you spoke against emotional appeal, then opened with one.
@IBtehOmar
5 жыл бұрын
But he did make a good point I never thought about prior, which is that they don't show signs of stress when they are taken care of.
@switchtheflip9422
5 жыл бұрын
@@IBtehOmar that's still not a good argument as to why we should choose the asthetics over a clearly undesirable mental condition.
@BoglimWrangler666
5 жыл бұрын
his entire video is just his delusional superiority complex shining through.
@arrowbutterfly3207
5 жыл бұрын
Wyatt Milliken in my opinion they’re choosing money over the health of an animal
@kierstensabolsky3349
5 жыл бұрын
Wyatt Milliken I very much agree with you. People don’t Mary other people with the thought of “oh, if I marry this person than I will have a child with a physical/mental disability. I usually agree with Clint too, but I will consider the health of my animal over all priorities.
@switchtheflip9422
5 жыл бұрын
At the end of the day, I do believe it comes down to how important asthetics are. Wobbles are a neurological condition that is clearly not desirable. I think that without self regulation now, we are going to end up looking at the equivalent of the Bulldog in the future, and only because of a pattern.
@perlalaudonio5779
5 жыл бұрын
I’m sorry,maybe it’s just me,but I don’t get why would you breed a snake or a gecko or whatever animal just for a goddamn morph that can led to having neurological issues . Even tho there might be a small possibility of a snake having issues due to their morph, just don’t breed it. There are many other morphs that don’t include issues. I don’t get it . And also I’m kinda sick of people saying “you won’t even notice it” because there are some serious cases. I will still continue to follow you because you give really great informations and you are one of the best reptile tubes out there. But still
@rambojambo3738
5 жыл бұрын
There are small chances for mutations or conditions with every animal.
@jammindragon1812
4 жыл бұрын
Rambo Jambo true, but this is a morph you KNOW will have issues. Some can have it minor and some can be very serious but no matter what ALL spiders have a varying degree of neurological issues because they’re spiders
@andrewl9169
4 жыл бұрын
In family genetics of humans for example where we can have neurological, visual, and mental abnormalities that we can pass down is it unethical for these people to reproduce?
@void-xt8pw
4 жыл бұрын
@@andrewl9169 Imo it isn't unethical. There will always be chances of a baby being born with a disability, however it's very different if your purposely breeding them. For example if someone has a genetic disability that affects their quality of life in a negative way, but they decide to reproduce because they themselves are beautiful then it IS unethical. But if someone has a baby that has severe mental issues then it isn't unethical, it's just life.
@reageerbuisje5391
4 жыл бұрын
@@andrewl9169 these people may love eachother and want a child. Snakes are forced to breed and don't care if they have kids or not.
@SeneliaStein5632
4 жыл бұрын
The spider gene reminds me of the frame overo in horses. The frame overo is an incomplete dominant gene like spider is, the heterozygous form creates a white pattern on the horse, with no issues at all, but the homozygous form causes the foal to be born all white and die within 48h because the cells do not migrate from the neural crest to the intestine. So the foal has no digestive process at all. They cannot evacuate the meconium or digest anything... very sad way to die. But people breed them because the heterozygous form is completely fine and very pretty.
@quagmavideos
5 жыл бұрын
Preferring looks over welfare/neurological health of the animal one is breeding/keeping is highly unethical, and morally wrong. The animal must live with what the breeder has given it for the entirety of its life.
@quagmavideos
5 жыл бұрын
I'm also autistic, and resent the way Clint compared a debilitating neurological defect to people with autism. Given a choice, I'd give up any "benefits" of this disability for a neurotypical life. Most autistic people would, because it *sucks* being autistic, no matter which end of the spectrum you are on. That's my take, and I would like Clint to do some more research on autism before making any more claims about it.
@derpro8125
5 жыл бұрын
I also have austism and I would not trade that away to be a neurotypical person, because I am content with the type of person that I am. Looks also contribute towards a better life, as animals with better aestethics also tend to be more loved and better cared for by their keepers, so breeding for aestethics is not necessarily immoral.
@zakattack1945
5 жыл бұрын
In what way is it ruining the animal’s welfare? His spider looks content. He explained the evidence that spiders actually do better in captivity than regular ball pythons. It seems to me the issue is more of poor ownership, worsening a spider’s condition, rather than the spider being forced to “suffer.” Also, he said himself comparing the spider to human conditions is a terrible idea, but he was trying to give them some credit by saying, “some ways you would compare would be...”
@quagmavideos
5 жыл бұрын
An animal constantly wobbling around and unable to control itself with a constant sense of vertigo sounds pretty wrong to me. You ever heard of enigma leopard geckos? They're identical syndromes, an aesthetic skin color genetically linked inextricably to a neurological syndrome that affects their balance as a dominant trait, except one has legs and the other doesn't. And ES is well known as not a good thing to breed into them. Why should it be different for the spider morphs? Would you condemn a human to a life of constant dizziness and unbalance? Why should it be any different for the animals? We have responsibilities to the animals in our care. Humans have choices in whether or not to spread their own dna around, no matter how messed up it may be. Animals that we have chosen to keep in captivity do not. It's entirely the owners choice whether or not to subject any possible offspring to a lifetime of misery and stress. It's not the snakes fault that it was born that way, but rather those who choose to allow it to continue. Here's a fun fact: there's an IDENTICAL morph called pinstripe, it has the *exact* same aesthetic but also NONE of the wobble. It's also easier to care for an animal that doesn't have a disability, so why people are advocating for a morph with no benefits to the snake when an easy identical problem free morph exists is beyond me. Spiders have wobble. Pinstripes do not. Neurotypical animals are easier to care for and breed and feed than one with constant vertigo. Ipso facto: the choice is clear. The one without a chance to have wobble is clearly the superior choice. There is no reason to advocate spider pythons. Unless, ofc, one is trying to sell them, and is trying to persuade people that they're not as bad as they really are.... But that could never happen... Could it? //Edit for spelling errors and grammar
@derpro8125
5 жыл бұрын
@@quagmavideos It might seem wrong to you, but you are not a ball python and you cannot empathize with what makes this animal content and "happy". What is most important and contributes to the animal's quality of life as a pet is that it does well in captivity. Spider ball pythons wobbles vary greatly, where some cases are mild. They also do well captivity overall and therefore they're solid pets that can live a good life, meaning there's not really anything wrong with breeding them as long as you know what you're doing when it comes to minimize the wobble.
@InversedDragoon
4 жыл бұрын
This is an older video now, And I have avoided watching it, because I really admire your content, and today I finally got to listen to your opinion...and I really cannot agree with you on it. I come from a family who has done some dog breeding, and comparing neurological issues to something like floppy ears or a "friendly disposition" is really misleading. So, for an example, for the type of dogs we bred, they generally came in 3 color categories, Blue Merle, and Red and Black Tris. Blue Merle were the most expensive color, so most desirable to breed, but there is a problem. Breeding two Blues together would lead to any puppies that survived till birth deaf, and usually blind. They would also have much more white compared to the parents, with a very distinctive look. In my opinion, breeding Spiders is like purposely crossing two Blue Merle, since, while a blind/deaf dog would die in the wild, it would still be able to eat, drink, breed and play in a household, and hey, dogs mostly rely on smell anyway, right? Would it be worth the cost to have such a distinct looking dog? Most people would say definitively not. Spider ball pythons live, eat and breed, sure, but the issues they have are not really something to downplay...many Spider ball pythons cannot even flip themselves over, and will slither on their backs if placed upside down, cannot look about when held, I've seen many struggle to strike prey, sometimes even biting themselves in confusion. I can only imagine them living their life as if they are dizzy constantly, sure, they don't know anything different, so it wouldn't be particularity distressing to them, but it makes just....being a snake harder than it should be on them. Purposely breeding snakes like this, seems wrong to me, since it's only just for a color pattern, there are so many other cool looking ball pythons to breed, Spiders should just be let to fade away.
@breadboy4758
3 жыл бұрын
Im neutral in this argument for spiders and would not breed them myself but when you say, "breeding Spiders is like purposely crossing two Blue Merle" Its more like crossing two spiders, which is highly frowned upon because super spiders will have extreme wobble and most likely lethal. That's why people don't just like you don't cross two Blue Merles together. "many Spider ball pythons cannot even flip themselves over" Almost every single one does, I'd say 99.9% of the time they are perfectly fine and. It's unfortunate to see that 0.1% but still extremely rare. Also, I know this is a older comment but whatever
@2cute4u_doge
3 жыл бұрын
I agree, a large point missed is whether they can thrive or not. In reality, we would want for all animals to be able to thrive, but the breeding of them creates more animals that cannot thrive. They should not have to require extra attention and care to make sure they can survive as a *pet*. I’m sure if people were asked, if they could take away the neurological problems spiders have, to allow them to thrive.. people would say yes. But then their actions say otherwise.. huh? Doesn’t sit right with me
@Benji-jj2bg
2 жыл бұрын
Your entire comment is misleading.
@Verdictus13
Ай бұрын
The only real difference is the tens of thousands of years of selective breeding that we haven't yet done to spider ball pythons.
@Katied2017
5 жыл бұрын
I appreciate hearing your point of view but I feel like you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to domestic traits and then traits that produce defects that mess with quality of life. Your dogs floppy ears are not going interfere with his ability to eat or play.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I want saying that they are the same thing. Snakes don't even have external ears 😉 What I'm saying is just because a mutation alters brain function, that does not mean that it is bad. That still needs to be determined.
@Verdictus13
Ай бұрын
Except apples and oranges are fruits that have been bred specifically for humans in some regard. And a friendlier wolf with floppier ears WILL do worse in the wild, harder to hunt when you don't hear as well and keep trying to play with your prey.
@adamburton3017
2 жыл бұрын
I think that if all companies who breed and sell spider ball pythons are willing to be as careful as possible to minimize the wobble, that spider ball pythons would not have to be banned. Animals can have defects in the wild as well that are around the same level as a major spider wobble. The minor ones aren’t very serious. Although I still am not for it, that would at least be a solution.
@electrowave114
Жыл бұрын
From what I've seen, the times the wobble gets bad seems to be more from something going off in incubation, too much heat, or poor care. High temperatures _will_ cause neurologic damage in _any_ snake, and spider ball pythons may simply be more susceptible to that - meaning they just need to have a bit more mindful care.
@Breviparopus
9 ай бұрын
Most of the ones I've seen have been rolling around with there heads in the air
@ryansway92
8 ай бұрын
There’s no way to do that in the breeding process though. The spider gene carries this inner ear problem that causes them to lose their equilibrium, some more frequently and/or more severely than others. How badly the animal is affected by this defect doesn’t seem to be something that breeders can control one way or the other.
@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013
8 ай бұрын
You're kidding; if you actually believe that, you've never seen one with major wobble. Personally, as someone who has seen one miss when going after a pinkie and spend half an hour trying to eat itself because it managed to bounce off the wall of the enclosure and mistake its own stomach for a mouse, it's pretty obvious that animal would not survive in the wild.
@Breviparopus
8 ай бұрын
@@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013 and you can't have the spider gene without headwoble because of the epistasis
@biancalewis4232
5 жыл бұрын
I have to say I feel like the wolf v. Dog argument is invalid. We haven’t domesticated snakes. The breeding of particular dog breeds with issues that impact their quality and length of life would have been better. Pugs are prone to respiratory issues, Dalmatian get arthritis.... spider balls and jungle jags can get wobbles. My jag had a wobble.
@reic2566
4 жыл бұрын
I agree, a lot of people use the dog argument but I also disagree with breeding dog breeds that are aesthetic over quality of life and physical conditions
@xBloodxFangx
4 жыл бұрын
We haven't domesticated snakes, but it is a good comparison. Dogs were bred for looks and temperament, spider ball pythons are being bred for looks and temperament. The wobble is there, it always will be, but the same is for every pure bred dog. German shepherds are very well known for joint and hip issues, and some even at a young age will be unable to really walk or function while most older ones will most likely get hip dysplasia or arthritis, so should we ban GSD? The answer is no, we just need to be careful on how we breed them and keep in mind that it is a thing with them. You could have one from a great breeder and it still gets hip issues. You could have one and never have these issues. But a backyard or puppy mill breeder doesn't care and breeds just for the money. Which can cause a seriously unhealthy dog, as is the same for people who neglect their dogs. A Shepard puppy was left outside on concrete and nothing soft to lay on, it was rescued and needed help learning to walk again cause the concrete messed its joints up. So same for the dogs as with spider ball pythons, it takes careful breeding, understanding, care and the knowledge that it is there and it could happen but they can also live very long happy, functional lives.
@JTurtleSnake
5 жыл бұрын
You should have also shown an example of a Spider that does show the neurological issues heavily. GoHerping has a good example of it in his video and you should definitely check that video out. The "wobble" is so bad that the snake has such issues that often it bites itself while feeding. The issues can get so bad that it heavily effects the snakes quality of life. Also I don't like the "autistic" argument we have resources and more understanding of autism and we can deal with it vs spiders there's not much we can do to help it deal with its neurological issues. If you want to see a good reason why not to breed them definitely check out GoHerping's video on it (Its one of his most viewed videos so it shouldn't be hard to find ) I wish this wasn't such a big thing lol I hope someone can find a way to get rid of the problems in spiders so we don't have to worry about stuff like this but until then I feel like any breeding of spiders should not be for profit but for research/educational purposes. Or just stop completely if we can't find a way to fix the issues they have. I agree they look nice and even though all of them don't turn out badly I think enough do that it can be seen as harmful to continue it. I know that spiders are not inbred but as an example we know that inbreeding in humans can cause genetic defects so we make sure to educate people on that and regulate it heavily. This all goes with other snakes that have common and repeat issues as well like cinnamon's. I am glad that you at least do care about your snakes and you are educating about the issues so thanks for that haha. There's too many breeders out there that just want the large profit they get from this breed and they do not tell people about any of the issues they have so they can make a better decision about getting one.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I have seen his video. That spider is one of the most severe examples I have ever seen. That said, all ball pythons miss and will do that if you place a feeder between their head and their body.
@adamdavis1737
5 жыл бұрын
My normal looks like a spider when she eats
@davidls187
5 жыл бұрын
Go Herping is a poorly informed kid with like 3 years on the hobby that has come to some unfortunate conclusions based on his really limited knowledge on the topic. His heart is in th right place, but you can't base your opinion on a single few extreme cases.
@Tinyvalkyrie410
5 жыл бұрын
The plural of anecdote is not data. That was sort of the whole point of the video. I think it’s incredibly sad how dysfunctional that snaked looked, but the worst example of the condition in a highly edited video by an uniformed teenager is not how we should be making these decisions. I think his heart is truly in the right place, and he may even be right, but it’s not the right way to find out. Also, go herping’s video is extremely popular. Clint is well informed and discussed videos like that in this video. I would assume he saw it, even if he didn’t confirm that here.
@camojoe83
5 жыл бұрын
1. That kid showed a bad case that was also a rescue, right? So how much of that is just poor keeping? 2. It *IS* a case of inbreeding. Most people on the interwebs snake community just pass genes back and forth.. This always makes bad things worse. Combine that with unscrupulous hack breeders (the majority, you know it's true) chasing those insta clicks and quick clutch dollars. Then, the whole thing snowballs into poor ol Cinnamon being held up as "muh evurdah spahdur pithawn! Alluvem iz bad! REEEEEEE!" with all the NPC followers soaking it up and REEEEEEE-ing till it's "cawmun nawlij" among the well informed #lookatmetooalsostillmoreagain internet consumers who want to be seen as significant on their ego platform of choice. Ego driven sloppiness. Well cared for snakes from clutches with distant parents don't wobble. Now if those snakes are poorly kept? Well, how is that different from any other species or morph being abused till it's damaged? People rail on German Shepherd breeders for hip problems in pups because it's a sign of poor selection in parents. Why is that not the case with snakes? It's not the snake's fault that the breeders won't do what is known to work well to make good snakes.
@dreamdragon1745
5 жыл бұрын
I must say i don't particularly agree with you. Snakes are often kept in poor conditions due to lack of care or education that's just a sad fact. Spiders being easily accessible and as you mentioned prone to becoming worse with bad care end up having a poor quality of life even after getting rescued if their condition became worse. If we continue ignoring well known issues (in other animals as well) we risk becoming dismissive of worse issues in the future. Having said that your opinions and reasoning do make more sense than a lot of others i have seen so keep up the good work ^^ And could you please make a blood python review? I'm very curious of what you have to say about them!
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your thoughts! We will cover them soon.
@icebiirb9440
4 жыл бұрын
But what about the spiders that strike themselves because they are unable to even strike their food?
@ClintsReptiles
4 жыл бұрын
Those are astronomically uncommon. Who knows how they got to be that way?
@icebiirb9440
4 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles I personally don't support breeding spider ball pythons because of the wobble. Even though I understand your argument and where you're coming from, I don't like the idea of breeding a snake morph as humanly as possible even with the chance of getting a snake that may never be able to live a good life. Kind of like selectively breeding tourrets to get the least amount of symptoms, but there still being a chance of getting someone who can just barely eat brealfast in the morning. That's how I interpret it anyway, also kudos for responding to a comment on such an old video, love your content overall.
@philimentphilement374
3 жыл бұрын
Spiders aren't the only morphs that do this, I can't tell you how many times I've seen normals munch on themselves and pastels ect, it happens
@ladyvoldything
2 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles They got to be that way through a severe presentation of wobble, which is genetic. What is this argument?
@sugarmuffin319
2 ай бұрын
@@philimentphilement374 I thought noodles weren't considered a morph?
@kyleighrae6423
3 жыл бұрын
One thing that doesn't sit right with me is that I see mostly breeders defending the continued breeding of spider ball pythons. Breeders are directly profiting from pushing the idea that spider morph's neurological disorders are not that bad. You can make the case that there are some good breeders who will self police and try to breed spiders with the "least amount of wobble" but that's not good enough. Spider morphs sell for a lot of money, that's motivation enough to push the idea that the aesthetic of this morph is more important than it's quality of life, and it is a quality of life issue. There are too many videos of spiders who have trouble feeding, and that's not to mention the horror stories of spiders drowning in their water bowls. The comparison to dog breeding doesn't further your point either, as most people who are informed about the issues that specific breeds face (pugs, bulldogs, and dachshunds for example) are not in favor of the continued breeding of these animals. I don't care that a pug's squished face is cute, I care that they struggle to breathe and their eyeballs are at risk of popping out of their sockets. Aesthetics should never trump the health of an animal. I understand that you have your opinion, but I think that the fact that a majority of your audience disagrees with you says a lot.
@the_animal_ark
3 жыл бұрын
😆 you took my words out of my mouth, but I do see his point too. God bless 😀😃😅
@The_Worst_Guy_Ever
Жыл бұрын
I’m shocked that someone as typically knowledgeable as Clint would think that that was a good analogy. Anyone who knows anything about dogs knows that those breeds have a plethora of debilitating health issues.
@masonsmorphs
4 жыл бұрын
Something I’ve noticed with my own spider balls is as the snakes age, the wobble shows itself more. Never noticed a wobble from mine until they reached a certain age. I still love them.
@PaperCityReptiles
3 жыл бұрын
Mason Morphs I’ve noticed my spiders wobble at food time. I have a variety of ages, and spider x morphs each one has a different degree of wobble from essentially none to corkscrewing. My spiders eat better than my pied or Mojave or normal. I love my spider bps. My hidden gene Woma and cinnamon have a slight wobble also.
@lilycatlin
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you, for this video! When I decided I wanted a Ball python, I did my research...what type/size of enclosure, temperature/humidity, lifespan, size, substrate, etc. When I had an enclosure ready, I went online and chose the one that I thought was the most beautiful, a Spider. I didn't know about the "Spider wobble", but found out about it soon after getting him. When I ordered him, I was told he was eating live mice. I offered him a frozen/thawed for his first meal with me and he didn't hesitate to take it. He has been such a good eater, even though he sometimes doesn't quite get it on his first try. I recently decided it was time to make the switch from mice to rats. He refused the first two times I offered a rat, but ate it on the third offering. ☺❤🕷🐍 I've had people make me feel like I should be ashamed for having a Spider bp, but I absolutely love him! Thanks again for this video!
@TheMosspeltGAMING
5 жыл бұрын
I get where you're coming from, but I disagree along with many of the others. A wobble isn't healthy for a snake. It makes them dizzy and terrified, they miss when striking, they hit their heads, etc. I saw a juvenile albino python with a wobble and it had scabs on its head and was terrified, constantly in a dizzy strike pose.
@steviekyme9153
2 жыл бұрын
I have strange relationship with the Spider morph. I brought my Ball Python when my Milksnake passed and when I was at shop I saw they had a Spider Yellowbelly who took my breath away. So I brought her and took home and fell in love with her. Bryce became an irreplaceable part of my life. I started to notice her head wobble more and more and I put it down to new noodles anxiety and it happened more prevalent when feeding coupled with her absolute terrible accuracy when feeding but it did still happen day to day. So I hit the old Internet and did some research and then learnt about the wobble and how it was an actual thing, I was not told about this at all and did ask the store about it and they said they don't breed spider but will get them in ( seems a bit counter intuitive). So after my research and learning more about the gene and wobble I changed my care and husbandary, example being rather then warming the whole mouse just the head to allow her pits to zone in. This didn't have complete success as she has missed and got me before causing some damage but never purposely. Now Bryce is an absolute 'puppy' of a snake. She never does 's' up never gives any kind of warning and just slithers around chill as anything and is an absolute joy but there are feeding issues which can I relent also be BP attributes. I love her to death and couldn't imagine not having her but had I known about the wobble I probably wouldn't have even looked at Spiders and also had I been told once I picked her out probably would have put her back. I want to start breeding snakes in the future but I will not breed Bryce as I don't think we should pass a neurological issue in form in a purposeful way which is my opinion and I wouldn't push that on anyone. Respectful discussions in disagreements and broading mindsets with experience based knowledge is important and does not require insulting or emotion outbursts. I love your channel as it feels so open and honest and everything is put forward so effortlessly professional. If I lived on the US and not the UK coming to your place and meeting you would be a bucket list endeavour.
@michaelbonj4090
5 жыл бұрын
Can I just say that domestication is different from the breeding that goes into reptiles dogs are bred to act a certain way and fit into certain situations reptiles are just about always bred for special color mutations making your argument of “A bad wolf” in my opinion not as valid of a claim
@voidofspaceandtime4684
5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, snakes still share the behavior of their wild counterparts at birth. If you were to release a juvenile captive bred before it got acclimated to indoor life, into its natural habitat it would do all a wild snake does until it gets eaten for not being camouflaged.
@derps7746
5 жыл бұрын
Its not different than shihtzus pugs...its for looks. Should they not be allowed to.live even if an owner is willing to give them a comfy life and care for them properly?
@voidofspaceandtime4684
5 жыл бұрын
+Yuki We're not saying euthanize existing snakes. We're saying to stop breeding the spider balls, as they have a major issue. If we keep breeding for aesthetic rather than health, are we going to end up with the dog issue again?
@michaelbonj4090
5 жыл бұрын
Yuki Light when you find where in my first comment I said to kill spider ball pythons and dogs I will listen to what you have to say
@Bearded_B
3 жыл бұрын
@@michaelbonj4090you have missed the point a little here. All he wants you to take from this is that regardless of the trait, behavioral or visual, some traits are better suited in the wild while others are perfect for ONLY attracting a human to take the animal as a pet. Once you grasp this concept, his other points build on this and develop his entire argument further. Far too many people on this thread already had their minds made up and no matter what Clint said, he was never going to change their minds...
@bandicrawford2795
4 жыл бұрын
Although it doesn't change my personal opinion, this does raise several points that I csn see the logic to. It's refreshing to see an argument presented so respectfully. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to learn about other sides of an argument without hostility. It lets us all make more informed decision
@SakuraPomeranian
5 жыл бұрын
As a disabled person, I extremely strongly disagree with the knowing reproduction of disability in any animal. Ever. Including humans. Sure they could manage or even get along well, or they could be miserable like me. It isn't morally okay to take that risk.
@BoglimWrangler666
5 жыл бұрын
it's just pure delusion masked with "you're closed minded if you disagree, i'm clearly an intelligent man who knows better". the desperate totally illogical, non comparible excuses and relating it to dogs with floppy ears is ridiculous. some of these reptile hoarders will never get it. i'm disappointed lol
@TBboyee
5 жыл бұрын
I REALLY appreciate how open minded you are. The fact that you to study and look into the subject shows that's you care. I wish more people could be the same.
@eightbitfeline1415
3 жыл бұрын
nah he is just stupid animal abuser who want make innocent animals suffer
@TBboyee
3 жыл бұрын
@@eightbitfeline1415 im sorry but no ones gonna take u serious with that pic of my little ponies... lol
@eightbitfeline1415
3 жыл бұрын
@@TBboyee tbh i would change this stupid pfp if can but i can't bc my ipad is fucked up now
@tristanbrand685
2 жыл бұрын
I just stumbled over a research regarding this issue. A team around F. Schrenk found structural differences in the inner ear morphology of spider ball pythons that seems to be the reason for the wobble. Reference: Comparative assessment of computed tomography and magnetic resonance imaging of the spider morph of Python regius and wild type Python regius to evaluate the morphological correlate of the wobble syndrome (Schrenk 2022)
@abherbitter
5 жыл бұрын
Clint I think the comparison to domestic dogs falls flat. The controversy here is really around the severe end of the neurological issues. It's not about being "not natural" it's about breeding for a disorder that reduces the health, lifespan, and quality of life of the animal. That said, later in the video when you talk about how spiders on average do better in captivity, are better eaters, etc compared to "regular" balls that was much more interesting and convincing. I appreciate your time in making this video. As an aside, when you talk about people "having autism" you're using outdated verbiage. The APA has reclassified all previous Autism DXs (things like aspergers, PDD-NOS, etc) into one, over arching DX "Autism Spectrum Disorder" and so the correct way to say this is to say someone is "on spectrum." This is as of the DSM-V revision. It is also an incorrect stereotype to describe all people on spectrum as having some other "mental superpower" ah la Rain Man. While this is true in many cases it often isn't. I didn't at all think you were trying to be in any way insensitive here but wanted to offer this feedback as my son is on spectrum and I know there's a lot to keep up with ☺️
@ZephyrBluePaddy
5 жыл бұрын
Do we know yet 100% that the neurological issue does or does not cause pain? I personally don't agree with pedigree Dog breeding, breeding for aesthetics rather than function is ethically atrocious. Spider is a beautiful gene (along with all the other genes that have problems), but I won't be breeding it myself for my planned pairings.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
And that is a totally reasonable decision to make.
@ZephyrBluePaddy
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles if anyone can confirm for once and for all that Neurological Wobble in all the Wobble carrying morphs (like Woma) isn't painful, then fine. I have a gorgeous Banana Bumble Bee who I'm sure would make some beautiful babies but... I can't without knowing whether its painful or not.
@elliewellie_YouTube
4 жыл бұрын
The difference with the spider wobble and friendly dogs though is that the wobble sometimes causes suffering, and friendliness does not.
@AnotherCatLady-
Жыл бұрын
I don't know, I was pretty friendly with a few exes that eventually made me suffer a little 😂
@elliewellie_YouTube
Жыл бұрын
@@AnotherCatLady- fair point.
@electrowave114
Жыл бұрын
Faulty argument interpretation - you missed the point that was made. Dog friendliness often comes with _floppy ears._ The wobble often comes with being a less picky eater. Floppy ears result in significantly increased risk of ear infections, which are quite painful to the dog - and if left untreated, can go septic, and even if treated, can result in deafness. Thus, friendliness carries with it a chance for increased ear infections, which, due to the nature of infections, comes with an increased chance of infection-related death. The spider gene isn't just a pretty pattern with a wobble - it also causes behavioural characteristics that help the ball python thrive in captivity (eating better, less likely to starvation-strike itself to death, and so forth). Both things sometimes cause suffering (frequent ear infections from the 'friendly' gene making the ears floppy _is suffering)._ Both things also can be beneficial to the animal, with an owner who exercises proper care and supervision to avoid exacerbating a predisposition to specific conditions.
@Breviparopus
9 ай бұрын
@disillusionistic spider moph royals are worse eaters than wild type royals. The only reason why we see them as better eaters is because the picky ones often starve to death
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
Hey Clint, I have to say I'm also impressed that people were so willing to hear you out on this... I understand that you have way more experience with reptiles than I do or probably will ever have, but I don't think the 'evidence' your talking about is really evidence it sounds more like your own observations. I've never really seen any studies on this and if there are any you can recommend I'd be glad to go through them. Also im not so convinced that the wobble itself is always causing stress to the snake, but if a snake was to miss a strike and injure itself this would definitely cause stress and I have seen plenty of videos of spiders missing their food when striking when they have a more severe wobble. Adding on to this if the snake only takes live, the wobble is severe enough, and the snake isn't being monitored whilst a live rat is being presented the spider isn't going to have much of a chance to defend itself if the rat fights back. I have no idea if this is the way you feed your snakes and I'm not saying it is but their are breeders on KZitem that do and that suggests even more breeders outside of the platform do the very same thing, and as someone else you were talking to in the comments mentioned even if this isn't a snake problem but more of a people problem that doesn't mean the snake is safe. Sorry for the terrible formatting I'm on mobile.
@NaraMouse101
5 жыл бұрын
Normal BP also frequently miss they're food when striking. When feeding any BP the keeper is expected to position the rat so that there aren't any hard objects to either side or directly behind it. It's not just a concern for spiders, it's a general BP husbandry issue. If any snake isn't being monitored or checked on regularly while being fed a live prey item, that's considered bad husbandry. I've never heard anyone argue that point (except when feeding pinkies, which don't bite). It kind of sounds like you're saying "if the husbandry is bad, that would be bad for a spider BP." While true, that seems to me like an issue with someone being misinformed to the detriment of their pet. Any BP in a scenario with the type of owner you describe would be at risk of injury. I agree that a spider would likely be at higher risk but being a spider wouldn't be the root cause of a feeding injury.
@GinEric84
5 жыл бұрын
Clint is trying to present an argument that vindicates what he is going as correct. He isn't following the evidence to it's conclusion he is picking what he thinks supports his a priori position that spider balls are just great. It's super disappointing.
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
@@GinEric84 I can see where your coming from there.
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
@@NaraMouse101 I definitely agree that a spider will most likely be fine with good husbandry but so will most snakes... I can link videos of people casually throwing rats into tubs with ball pythons, some of which are spiders... I actually didn't know it was common for a ball pythons to miss a strike, I've cared for snakes other than BP's and their have been bad strikes but never full misses so thanks for that info.
@armourdillo1236
5 жыл бұрын
@@spuilloh2637 I certainly can't find any published studies at all never mind ones with merit... It's definitely disappointing and I feel like he's basing this of his own experiences and not considering the overall morality of the morph. He's saying that he will take scientific reasoning above anything else but what scientific reason is there for a spider BP to be more successful? I don't think we know any and without any studies to back that point up it's utterly meritless. There's certainly reasons why they wouldn't be as successful such as a severe wobble causing missed strikes and a higher chance of suffering when poor husbandry such as the reckless live feeding is provided. I think he's probably tried to convince himself that these animal are fine to breed because he wants to keep breeding them, but that's just a guess.
@hazelgrunts
4 ай бұрын
I’m autistic and I don’t appreciate having my disability used as an analogy or justification for breeding spider ball pythons. We know that spider ball pythons all have a wobble to varying degrees, and breeding them increases the risk of getting snakes that have a lower quality of life. Yes breeding snakes always comes at the risk of random health defects popping up, but we should always try to keep that risk as low as possible. It’s upsetting to me when people compare me as an autistic person to an animal, especially when it’s being done to justify doing something that I don’t endorse.
@gottesurteil3201
4 жыл бұрын
This is perhaps the best defense of breeding the Spider Ball Python I have watched to date. It is a difficult gauge to consider when there are certainly some permissible dog breeds that may be infinitely more debilitated than Spider Ball Pythons inflicted with the wobble. You made an outstanding conclusion regarding domestication of these animals which may render those debilitations trivial. I think many may take the dignity approach which is incredibly subjective to begin with. So long as it has been well fed, has sufficient means of play/exercise, and has the capacity to live a full lifespan (provided the animal is not being raised for slaughter) I believe that qualifies for a dignified life as a domesticated animal.
@ClintsReptiles
4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for keeping an open mind.
@allisonweber2650
5 жыл бұрын
I wasn’t a huge fan of your comparisons even though I see your intent behind them. The thing you didn’t touch on in this video is breeders putting beauty over the health of the animals which I very much think is a thing in the community. I think for the most part people in the reptile community truly care about reptiles but we know that there are certain genetics in reptiles that are debilitating or even fatal. I’m not just talking about ball pythons because it happens with other popular pet trade reptiles. Like the lemon frost morph for leopard geckos and luecistic crested geckos. When it comes to breeding spider ball pythons or other genetics that can be problematic it really should be done with caution
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I totally agree. I think I covered that in more detail in the first video.
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
Before that they need to sell first. Beauty sells.
@Minimojojoy
5 жыл бұрын
I still completely disagree, as I think we don’t yet understand the complexity these neurological effects have on the daily lives of snakes. But, I have great respect for you, your opinions, and responsible breeding practices. These discussions are very important so our opinions all evolve! And hopefully this will also help those who do breed ball python’s have better breeding practices.
@snoopynoopers1488
5 жыл бұрын
I love this channel and have learned a lot from you but I have to strongly disagree on this one. A floppy-eared docile dog is an inappropriate comparison. A pug with a cute snout that struggles to breathe is more apt. A white snake wouldn’t survive in the wild, but we’re not discussing the wild- we’re discussing life in captivity. The white snake has no neurological issue that the spider does and thus it’s life in captivity is impacted. THEN to compare spider with mild autism is insulting as severe would be more comparable considering the huge impact not knowing up from down would have on a person. Plus to say there’s no evidence other than anecdotal that spiders live worse lives, yet to present only anecdotal evidence that they may in fact live BETTER lives is very flawed.
@JavieraDoloresSoledad
5 жыл бұрын
Im sorry. I will desagree in this one. I have a boa constrictor with neurological issues similar to the spider gene and its just heart breaking, and his cuality of life is oviusly deminished. Its just plain cruel. I also happen to have a genetic desorder called Marfan Syndrome I am super tall and skinny (everyone tells me Im so lucky too look "like a model" ) , but I HURT all the time, and my lungs have collapsed 2 times Im almost blind in one eye and had 2 operations to be able to walk. Im sorry , thers no excuse for morphs with this kind of defects and your arguments dont meke up for it :(
@pcuneo4243
5 жыл бұрын
I respect you and your opinion but how can we feel good about breeding a snake that often can’t tell up from down and ends up suffering? I think that there is major problems with it and no matter how pretty they are they should be discontinued.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I've never seen a spider that doesn't know up from down. They do right themselves, and they don't generally flip upside down ever. They just seem more laid back about being upside down than other ball pythons.
@pcuneo4243
5 жыл бұрын
Clint's Reptiles have you seen one of the spiders Goherping has? I appreciate your constructive response
@pcuneo4243
5 жыл бұрын
Clint's Reptiles kzitem.info/news/bejne/lJdvs6GMhqugh6Q and go to this time stamp in the video: 4:04. But again I have lots of respect for you and your work so keep doing what you do.
@landonnorman
5 жыл бұрын
So if the homozygous is lethal, then because of incomplete dominance wouldn’t the heterozygous spider gene still be considered bad? Also, I would not want a snake to feel like having what appears to me vertigo half the time. I love your channel Clint, just disagree on this topic.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
That's fair. Spiders certainly give no indication of being distressed. They frankly do great in captivity.
@landonnorman
5 жыл бұрын
Clint, could you address my first question? I would like to get some clarity on it.
@landonnorman
5 жыл бұрын
I never said I have vertigo, but if I did, I would prefer not having vertigo than being say 15 percent more handsome.
@yulusleonard985
5 жыл бұрын
@@landonnorman It will affect your ability to reproduce. I bet everyone will tolerate vertigo for 15 percent more handsome.
@Tinyvalkyrie410
5 жыл бұрын
Yulus Leonard It depends on the severity of the vertigo. I know someone with vertigo bad enough she vomits and often has to lie down on the floor for half an hour. She has lost jobs over it and it has required medical care. She is like a very bad case of wobble. My dad also has vertigo, but only occasionally, and closing his eyes for a bit fixes it. One would choose that 15% more handsome deal, the other wouldn’t. The question is, how common is one compared to the other? What is the mechanism determining that risk? Can we actually determine those answers?
@mantatsubasa1342
5 жыл бұрын
Everyone has valid opinions! I personally disagree, my boy isn't as some bad as he used to be but he does suffer, he slightly. He has trouble hitting his strikes properly and if he isn't supported he does twist upside down and get stuck. I still adore your content! And I can't wait to see more videos❤❤❤🐍
@lukastroutman4600
5 жыл бұрын
Manta Tsubasa give your boy a nice life and if you want to adopt one that’s fine just never buy because that encourages more breeding
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
He gets stuck upside down? Man, that sounds pretty severe. Do you know much about the level of care it received when it was young?
@davidls187
5 жыл бұрын
Now THAT sounds like a severe case
@mantatsubasa1342
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles He sorts himself out after a few seconds he just needs a bit of help. The shop I worked at ordered him in and I felt sorry for him so I bought him. He was my first snake so I never saw how bad it was until I got another ball python. I don't know anything about the breeder sadly, I got him when I was 17. Thank you for replying though Clint! He's still my precious son and I love him.
@mantatsubasa1342
5 жыл бұрын
@@lukastroutman4600 Now that I'm older and more experienced with snakes I would never get another, unless it was a rescue. I love my boy dearly and he just needs more help when he eats.
@ajhallatt9713
5 жыл бұрын
First off, props for presenting a respectful and well-though out argument. Personally, I've seen enough keepers come forward with examples of severe wobbles that I no longer feel comfortable describing the spider wobble as anything other than variable. While I think it's interesting to theorize that spiders with visibly severe wobbles primarily come from backgrounds of neglect or abuse, I haven't seen nearly enough proof of that myself to reach that conclusion. What do you think about keepers that report their spider's wobble getting increasingly severe with age? I'd be very interested to see a professional, unbiased study carried out to measure the severity of the wobble across different genetic lines and how those wobbles progress throughout time. While I think it's unlikely such a study will occur, a public facebook group for keepers to (respectfully) share their personal experiences with the spider ball python would be an interesting first step. Perhaps moderated/administrated by keepers with opinions on both sides of the spectrum. Ultimately though, my argument is one of pragmatism. I don't think any of us can reasonably claim to have enough actual hard data regarding the spider morph to reach a scientifically justified conclusion. And what is the benefit that outweighs the risk? Personally, I don't think their physical appearance is a compelling enough reason. However, I respect that you can feel differently! Thanks again for approaching the topic with care and for encouraging your supporters and the community to keep the debate polite and constructive.
@ZenaraX
5 жыл бұрын
I think the comparisons you made are quite poor here and I don't really understand the point you are trying to make due to this. In saying that they are similar to a standard dog you are suggesting that this is a simple behavioural change not a debilitation (as they are bred for the purpose of being pets rather than wild animals, arguing that it would be debilitating in the wild is irrelevant). Spider BPs are sometimes even debilitated by this in captivity. I would consider the breeding of rat and corn snakes to alter temperament as a better comparison to standard pet dogs, where as spider ball pythons are more akin to the breeding of dogs for appearance to the detriment of health, such as (pure bred) dalmations, king charles spaniels, and brachycephalic breeds. The comparison to autistic people was also wrong in my opinion, if we look at the differences between the types of illness in both cases they are also too different, autism is a neurological disorder that, in the most basic sense, effects social abilities. The spider mutation, whilst they seemingly do lack almost a social/ survival element (evidenced by them hanging upside down and sometimes not self correcting when turned on their back) they also have this head wobble (which I have seen called the symptom of a central nervous system disorder), which causes physical symptoms that can be debilitating, perhaps more similar to something like multiple sclerosis in humans? The argument of whether the snake, or any animal in this case, would survive in the wild is quite irrelevant in the case of snakes being bred in and for a captive consumer market.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I'm not saying that spider and dogs are the same, I'm just saying that because a mutation has an impact on the behavior and not only the appearance of an animal, that does not mean that it is "bad". Whether it is bad, good, or neutral still needs to be determined.
@ZenaraX
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles I see, I wonder though if that would make more sense to consider if the change were positive and perhaps more conducive to their lives in captivity and as pets being better. The 'behaviour' seems to either make not too much difference/ severely hinder them, so I can't really see a positive. I will respectfully agree to disagree though!
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
I can see that. While I think there is a chance that the benefit to feeding outweighs the cons, I'm not convinced of that. I consider spider to be beautiful but I have never bought a snake because it had spider in it. That said, as long as the wobble is minimal, I don't see spider as a reason not to buy a snake or use it as a breeder. It is generally such a minor issue that I really don't see the concern at all. Spider ball pythons, on average, just do really well in captivity. They do much better than most of the reptile species that we keep. If spiders don't make the cut, there won't be much left.
@davidjr3769
3 жыл бұрын
We really need to come together and create solid data on this, I am almost certain that 95% of spiders have little to no issues. Out of 50 spider ball pythons I’ve seen all lived a great life , ate really good and had no issue with climbing.
@EzraM5
5 жыл бұрын
People really do need to tell the difference between what sort of opinions and arguments are worth discussing. This here is actually one of those, and I wish you and others would take care to make that distinction. Thank you for your video, regardless. It was a very clear look into the complexity of breeding animals such as this.
@notmyrealname4363
2 жыл бұрын
For me the discussion is about success in captivity. In the context of captivity a BEL isn't hindered in its ability to be a healthy ball python because of that specific characteristic. We breed morphs as exploring genetics, especially for colouration. Spiders have a colouration many find desirable and so wish to perpetuate. This comes with their neurological issues as a package deal. They are known to be 'good eaters' (that is if they aren't hindered by the wobble to the severity that they can't). But that isn't the reason for breeding them, since if the appetite really was the goal people wouldn't be placing emphasis on keeping the colouration despite the neurological issues, they would just go and look for other genes that help with appetite and not the spider genes. I think the reason for rescue pythons perhaps having worse wobble, also has the potential be *due* to them having bad wobble. It could, as we don't know yet, not be caused by the previous situation but be linked to it. If that previous owner wasn't able to care for them as the wobble worsened perhaps that is a factor in their needing to be rescued. It's a case of correlation and causation Success in captivity. I don't care for placing an emphasis on aesthetics for the sake of neurological problems. Issues that snakes have that can be accommodated by a more forgiving environment. The trait of light sensitivity (that appears in albino snakes for example) can be accommodated without compromising on the husbandry of their environment. And BEL don't need to worry about predators, making them able to have equal success in captivity. When the functioning of the snake is impaired in a way that can't be accommodated for and still have a comparable standard of husbandry, then I would not wish to perpetuate that genetically. If it's a mutation that just happens then yeah hat snake deserves the best care we can give it. But to choose to place emphasis and choose breed *for* characteristics like the spider genes, is not the same. Breeding of animals is eugenics. It's selective breeding. For me it is the act of choosing to give a snake wobble. For those who will and have tried to make the arguement of pro-spider by comparing selective breeding in animals to human eugenics, I do have something to say, from the perspective of an autistic person myself. Human eugenics is evil, and *not* comparable to the breeding of animals in terms of eugenics. It is not the same ethically, and humans should not be selectively bred, nor should they be exterminated for their differences. So when those who are *pro-spider* who bring up human eugenics (sometimes with the specific example of autistic people 👀) and say that breeding for spider genes is ok because they deserve life, are making a leap that doesn't really follow. So pro- spider, we are talking about *animals.* Breeding animals... You in this scenario *already are* partaking in eugenics. That's what this is. It's not a very valid comparison to say "human eugenics bad, therefore my specific choices in snake eugenics aren't bad". You can't bring up 'human eugenics wrong because all people deserve life' as a reason for *your choices* in the *eugenics* of snakes therefore being ok? You are *already making choices on the genetic profile of a living thing.* They get to be born and pass on certain genes due to *your* preferences. So... you can choose. You *are choosing* what kind of snake you are bringing into the world. If you were anti-eugenics in animals, you wouldn't be participating at all... *not* bringing up neurodivergent and disabled people as examples for something which for the logic and point of that specific argument is isn't valid. People can disagree. But that is an example of an argument I wish people would understand doesn't make sense. I am curious and open to hearing other points of view, but this specific appeal isn't coherant for the point it tries to make. Thankyou for listening. :)
@dellybird5394
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, human eugenics doesn't factor into the discussion at all, because humans choose whether or not (and with whom) they want to reproduce, while animals are just doing what a breeder directs them to. The breeders are the ones choosing for the animals, which is why some people have an issue with it. Especially in cases where the animals are producing very unhealthy offspring or can't even give birth without surgery (an issue with some dogs). At that point the breeder is creating suffering, though the spider ball python defect is nowhere NEAR that extreme. The neurological issues of spider ball pythons may be overblown, but it is fair to not want to breed/buy them until we have more data about it. Believing that does not mean you have any problem with humans choosing reproductive partners for themselves, regardless of disability.
@nomadicningen
4 жыл бұрын
Ive seen nothing other than positive results with the Spiders I've owned. It's only when breading is done regardless of detrimental characteristics being a likely result that i take issue. An aside, My mother bought my father a rainbow boa when she was pregnant with me. I was 15 when it passed away. She was a wonderful pet that I used as an educational tool to teach my fellow students that most of what they "knew" about snakes was wrong.
@ericshuty2564
4 жыл бұрын
I personaly think that its wrong to breed spider ball pythons because of the problems they can have, and I think that people should not breed them, however I also think that it wronge to belittle someones opinion, so even though I disagree with you I'm not say that your wrong Thanks for reading this, have a good day!
@nancygreen7545
4 жыл бұрын
My Spider seems to "act up" when I don't pay attention to her.. odd, I know. But I noticed a pattern that every time I ignore her for too long, her wobble comes out in full force.. I take her out for an hour or so for a few days... she's back to normal.. I'm a firm believer that stress is a factor in how bad a wobble can be.
@888fluffy
5 жыл бұрын
3:28 I am a scientist and I agree that facts and evidence are good. But the inability to step back, be self aware, understand how emotions and society affects they way you interpret facts, that's dangerous. Facts are easily manipulated, and are heavily dependent on context. And if you think that you are above emotions, that just means you are unaware of how emotions are affecting you, because you most certainly are affected. So be emotional! There's nothing wrong with that! but make an effort understand your emotions. Being emotionally intelligent is just as important as being intellectual intelligence because, nowadays, everyone thinks they're right because they have the right facts and evidence.
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Very true. That is why I'm always open to facts that go against my opinions.
@GinEric84
5 жыл бұрын
This video smacks of having a conclusion then trying to support it instead of reasonably following facts to a conclusion.
@888fluffy
5 жыл бұрын
@@GinEric84 well put
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
What is the evidence that you think I am ignoring when drawing my conclusion?
@888fluffy
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles So here are some problems I have with your analysis of evidence and the conclusions you drew: You mention how your dog and python have mutations that are not deleterious because of the selective pressures in their environment (e.i. your house). And that these mutations would be deleterious in the wild 1. That's a straw man argument. No one has ever said that the reason spidersball pythons shouldn't be bred is because they wouldn't survive in the wild. 2. You don't mention dogs like pugs, which do have deleterious mutations (even under captive selection pressures). These dogs do objectively suffer, even with the best care. They way you've framed your point makes it seem like being in a captive environment relieves all selective pressure from any deleterious mutations brought about by selective breeding and that's just not true. 3. You say how you personally haven't seen any evidence that spiderball pythons suffer. But there is, hell, you can youtube spiders with debilitating head wobbles (preventing them from preforming normal behaviours like eating). They don't just exist but are pretty common. Since yours do not exhibit strong symptoms in your opinion, you frame it as if there is no solid evidence. But their existence IS the evidence. And every time you breed them, you still run a high risk of producing one that does have a debilitating head wobble, captive environment or no. And that's not worth it imo. 4. You don't mention the fact that stuff like longevity is not always a good indicator of welfare. It's almost impossible to know whether an animal is suffering even if it is surviving just fine. I, personally, would rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for reading, sorry it got a bit wordy
@taylorkuhne6627
5 жыл бұрын
As much as I respect your right to have a stance on this issue, I'm kind of disappointed with how you backed yourself. Comparing a floppy eared defect to a wobble defect is not an even comparison...your dog having floppy ears hasn't effected it's ability to eat or function in domesticity whatsoever. Both spider morphs and your dog couldn't survive in the wild...but that isn't even the argument present.
@xBloodxFangx
4 жыл бұрын
But a lot of dog breeds do have defects that are just now part of that dog breed. floppy ears can be a serious issue, some breeds with very long floppy ears can get serious ear infections and go deaf. Other breeds have issues with their joints and be unable to walk. But with good breeding and care we can make sure to have these issues be less serious or more uncommon. Same goes for spider ball pythons. And just like breeding spiders, you can also have a good breeder who gets a snake / dog that has a horrible hip or joint issues and its just, something that happens. Cause its in their genes now.
@Verdictus13
Ай бұрын
The only real difference is the tens of thousands of years of selective breeding for friendly, floppy eared dogs that spider BP's haven't yet had. A phenotypical and behavioral change is comparable to a phenotypical and behavioral change regardless of your emotions around the issue.
@jamesanear3141
5 жыл бұрын
I personally think that this is one of those things that becomes neutral morally. A lot of people are making arguments about the spider being nice looking but damaged, but as you said it fairs better than most other captive snakes. As for them worsening their wobble in poor care, pretty much all snakes will suffer with poor husbandry. Some non spiders can become disabled or even die with poor care. So a good study to really see how spiders fair vs other snakes would have to be “are spiders more likely to become disabled with poor care vs other snakes and to what degree.” That would be difficult to study but without the answer to that question we can’t really know if it’s unethical to breed them. Furthermore should we stop breeding easy to kill reptiles like chameleons just because many of them die early due to poor care? I don’t think so. In the end I think people often lose the ability to be objective with animals because we project on them (when animals do not have the same emotions or cognitive processes as us) and honestly we just think they are cute. I would probably not get a spider, but that is just because I don’t really want one, not for a moral reason.
@GraceWhip
3 жыл бұрын
I want to preface this with a thank you for covering this so thoroughly. As someone who has wobbles/tremors it does make my life harder. It makes me sad when people breed animals that they know will have a high chance of neurological issues, especially since it's so hard to know how they're affecting something that can't talk. I act perfectly normal and don't seem stressed to others, but I'm always kind of in pain from my muscles overacting. It's not fun. I think we need more research into their wobble and stress responses/elevated baseline stress before we can decide the wobble isn't a big deal. I do love that you discuss observing their stress responses and restlessness compared to other ball pythons. It would be good to know if their stress hormones are different. It seems like the wobble is exacerbated by early-life trauma/high stress, from what I've read, but it does make me worried about their quality of life in general.
@juniortorres4335
4 жыл бұрын
Well said. I got mad respect for you and your channel. Very knowledgeable and respectful. Thank you!
@myst1calmoonray453
4 жыл бұрын
I know I’m late, but I don’t care, I personally disagree with the breeding spiders for a few reasons, like Clint said, ALL spiders have neurological defect which can alter from just a little confusion to spiders literally being able to kill them selves due to lack of sense of direction and perspective (is that the right word?) I personally think it is wrong to breed ANY animal for the aesthetics even though they have health issues, using the ‘But we do it to dogs’ argument is not a valid argument IN MY OPINION, I think what we are doing to pugs is wrong too. No matter how adorable the animal (in this case snake) I will not support breeding them if they have health issues. *BUT* I don’t care if someone buy these snakes IF they are ready and aware about the wobble, I just personally wouldn’t buy one myself because I don’t support breeding them.
@caitlynlentz7091
5 жыл бұрын
Breeders just shouldn’t purposely breed disabled animals. There’s no way around it or no way to justify it in my mind.
@rundan8620
5 жыл бұрын
Caitlyn Lentz Clint went over what qualifies as “disabled” and spider pythons are hardly that
@starshine94
5 жыл бұрын
@@rundan8620 you seen GoHerping's video on spider ball pythons? I recommend giving it a look.
@darcieclements4880
5 жыл бұрын
@@rundan8620 you can not measure a disability by the mildest case. You must see the worst. In Clints defense, he has never seen the worst case scenario. If he does, he may change his mind.
@rundan8620
5 жыл бұрын
@@darcieclements4880 That's irrelevant. In fact its actually anti-productive. You make decision based off of the average not the outlying case and or extreme case. The most extreme case of "wobble" would be a snake occasionally upside down momentarily. This does not harm the snake at all. Stop pretending this is a deathly gene. It's not.
@caitlynlentz7091
5 жыл бұрын
Rundan I’m not going to argue. Regardless of how severe the wobble is, it is immensely stressful for the animal. The only spiders I’ve ever come into contact with all have a wobble, and a lot of them had it severely.
@jalexoneschanel1356
4 жыл бұрын
I don't think they should be intentionally bred. I'm not against people owning them as pets, but I think the people who keep them should be really aware of what it means for them and be capable of caring for special needs animals. Regardless of the severity of their 'wobble', spider balls are special needs animals and sometimes need different care than other ball pythons. There are way too many spider ball pythons being bred and neglected currently that I think putting their breeding to an end would be a good thing, even if it only turns out to be a break from breeding them. They're an expensive morph that breeders latch onto, regardless of whether they care for the animals or not. People who purchase spider ball pythons often have no idea that they have a neurological defect. Those that do know about the defects often are unaware of how severe those can be.
@apithonor
5 жыл бұрын
I do like your videos, but you always disappoint me with this need to defend breeding spider BP. Using "but dogs and cats are bred like this also" as the excuse is not scientific, nor even a solid social argument. And, Clint, I am saying this in a friendly manner, not trying to be overly dramatic, but it is what it is - you saying that eating and reproducing is the measuring stick by which we measure success sounds very much like how someone justifies having a puppy mill. Breeding spider BPs is on the same level of people breeding Persian/ragdoll cats or pug dogs - I get that people breed for attributes that they like, but what I don't get is that people see the medical problems that certain selective breeding creates and continue to breed them. Breeding them "because you like them" does not remotely seem ethical to me. I don't have a problem with people owning spiders, I have a problem with people breeding them. Yeah, I know that is a chicken/egg argument, but I think that if you're hatched you deserve a good life, but if you are creating these lives you have a much higher standard to follow. I don't understand where you are going with someone becoming a BP/spider BP - it seems a very strange argument. And autism? Not remotely the same. How about instead we ask if you would rather have Friedreich's ataxia or not? Patients with ataxia lead the same lives as those without, but with differing levels of difficulty. Spiders with a "bad wobble" that I have come in contact with or know about were "rescues" only because they were bought from a trash breeder and the owner didn't want them anymore. In two of the 4 "bad wobble" cases I know of, the husbandry was perfect for the species, no mites, no secondary infections. If anything was triggered to make it worse, it was at the breeder's. I can imagine stress causing a neurological disorder to become more pronounced, but I don't think it "makes it worse" exactly, so much as the constantly-underlying condition comes to the fore because of stress (and therefore even if they don't regurgitate their food, I could argue this is a symptom in your no-stress argument). In conclusion, people do not need a license to get a giant reptile, a venomous reptile, or a reptile with a neurological condition, nor do they have to get a license to breed them. Because education is not required, only money, I do not feel it is a "good thing" to support the breeding of spider BP, no matter how pretty, nor small their neurological effects. I would like to link you an article that brings up many of your points you discuss in this video, but seems to be far more cautious when it comes to the conclusion compared to your reasoning. www.researchgate.net/publication/262937861_Neurologic_dysfunction_in_a_ball_python_python_regius_color_morph_and_Implications_for_welfare Note: This article was funded by UFAW. Since you seem to be so set on this, why don't you find the funding to do actual research on this since you said the data is not currently available? Easier said than typed, but I think it is something you SHOULD do, especially considering you breed spiders, plus you have the contacts and network already.
@rundan8620
5 жыл бұрын
Kristina Erhardsson snakes have very simple functions. Eating, pooping, breeding ect. Across all snakes we can asses something is wrong when these aren’t being exercised. If spider pythons meet all normal healthy functions of your typical snake then you really can’t make the argument that the spider gene is hindering their well being. Yes they have a wobble but there isn’t any evidence that compels me to believe that snakes even have the capacity to comprehend that it even has a wobble. Which is probably why evidence shows them living fine under the right conditions. Not to mention; all reptiles should be under the right conditions.
@rundan8620
5 жыл бұрын
@Michaela Of course they can. Why are you making stuff up?
@Radiogumdrop
5 жыл бұрын
@@rundan8620 I suggest watching GoHerping's video about his spider ball python. It has such a severe wobble, it bites itself when eating. How is that doing one of the simple behaviors with ease? Yeah, they don't always get the wobble that bad, but if the morph is inherently linked to the wobble, we should be the responsible ones and stop breeding them in the case they are bad.
@rundan8620
5 жыл бұрын
@@Radiogumdrop I've watched his video. It's nothing more than just an mathematical argument. As far as him biting himself that's completely on the owner. Use some common sense when you're feeding your snake.
@wolfcatcombo5859
5 жыл бұрын
Hey Clint. I agree with your assertions and observations for the most part, but there are key points that I cannot agree with. In short, I believe that their suffering is not something that can simply be quantified by lifespan and what anyone PERCEIVES as stress. Furthermore, I believe that no amount of detriment's importance, experienced in a creatures intended environment and caused by a controllable source, should be outweighed by a desire for something that is purely aesthetic. More research needs to be done to discover what degree of detriment these creatures experience throughout their long lifespans. Humanity has almost exclusively erred on the side of reckless adoption of new things without researching consequences or results, and it is something that I think we will continue to do for as long as we exist. It is human nature to be more curious than cautious, especially so when it isn't our hides on the tanning rack. Whether this is good or bad I think is clear. Historically speaking it has cost millions of lives. (Smoking, Drinking, Drugs, Weapons, War) I think until we have things figured out regulations should be created, in some capacity, to prevent the worst of these situations. I would love to have a longer conversation regarding this, but I don't believe the comments section of a KZitem video is the appropriate place. If you are by chance interested, let me know.
@alajaksa
5 жыл бұрын
I have banana spider bought from a reputable breeder here. It had wobble from day 1 and it has only gone worse. I have 15 other snakes and they are perfectly fine. He eats every time food is offered, sheds incredibly well and poops normally. His wobble is so bad I had to move him to a enclosure with lower ceiling. He constantly hits his head to walls because he corkscrews so bad. I am thinking about putting him down as it looks really bad. I have not seen worse wobble than his. He can not strike food that is less than an inch away from him, but when he finally hits the food he eats it. He is also not picky and will take rat, mice and chicks fresh or thawed. (it is illegal to feed live where I live). I do not think it is my care that is wrong, at least I hope it is not. Also if you want video of the living conditions, wobble or anything I can give it to you if that is evidence you want, or anything else you might think that is in my power to give.
@somerandomparrot5101
5 жыл бұрын
Im a new viewer and im glad to see that the comment section wasn't filled with rage comments, but ones wanting an explanation and curiosity on others point of view(i learned of the channel thanks to your collaboration with snake discovery)
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
We have the coolest fans on the internet.
@somerandomparrot5101
5 жыл бұрын
@@ClintsReptiles Hey Clint:)
@Tarheelsteel
2 жыл бұрын
You don't intentionally breed for autism, like specifically knowing autism will be the result of the breeding. I think that would be unethical. That was a weird comparison.
@michellethomas6557
5 жыл бұрын
As someone who works in a scientific field with a focus on observable behavior (ABA) I do think emotions are an important consideration. To not consider emotions would be inhumane and potentially cruel. Not that he said they should never be considered but I hate how scientists sometimes discredit as argument due to it having an emotional component. I'm also curious if Clints autistic friends have aspergers, which while on the spectrum is very different than a lower functioning form of ASD. Some people even say aspergers should be it's own diagnosis. There are plenty of individuals with ASD who will never receive the "superpowers" Clint talks about as they will be early learners their entire lives.
@darcieclements4880
5 жыл бұрын
Let's be honest, Autism is a catch all bin for anyone who doesn't fit in the normal box or one of the few special case boxes that have been built. Until doctors actually break it up based on root cause, it will always be a bin of many different human variants/conditions, some disabling, and some gift giving and everything in between.
@ianaliciaperry5243
3 жыл бұрын
ABA is abusive, so even though I agree with your "emotions" bit, it's kind of fucked up. Please don't pretend you have an ethical leg to stand on.
@dumupad3-da241
8 күн бұрын
The question is whose emotions we are talking about and whether they are justified or can and should be changed. The negative emotions of someone abused and the negative emotions of someone who just 'feels' that, say, LGBT people are unnatural and shouldn't exist aren't worth equal consideration. If the emotion goes against the evidence about what is actually beneficial or harmful, the emotion has to yield. A harmful tendency that I have observed is the widespread acceptance of the idea that all emotions/feelings are entitled to being accommodated just by virtue of existing and being felt by someone and regardless of whether they are justified or not - in spite of the fact that this principle obviously leads to absurdities and to things that most or all people wouldn't accept.
@marcinkuta5833
4 жыл бұрын
I am just doing my research watching sides of the argument, and I have to say that... after months of watching Clint's Reptiles and loving, admiring the scientific and biological approach to things and the informative videos. I found myself heavily disappointed with the side taken when it comes to breeding spider ball pythons. I have one common boa pet. I don't breed snakes. I breed tropical fish. And I must say... if your batch is a 100 fish, you get few odd fry in man made morphs... they get their fins twisted, guess how they swim... too long to move about comfortably or swiftly, spines shortened creating so called balloon effect... etc... etc. Yes, if i'm determined to keep alive an animal that hardly goes around getting food in their mouth, I can put it in a separate container and bring food to its nose raising it to be a new freak trend in a hobby. But this animal left in a standard set up where you would raise it as its 'more normal' siblings... would never made to any adulthood or further breeding if it's not pushed food in it's face when it's spinning in circles or missing where to strike on regular basis. It's like creating a breed of dogs, cats, hamsters or parrots, that are blind and they smash into things in it's 'sweet way' but food needs to be delivered to their nose, and it's gonna be a 'new cool thing'. Was a massive fan of Clint's Reptiles.... processing what was put in there to justify his breeding of animals that struggle... if you are a snake that doesn't know where to strike... you would be an amazing feeder if something was actually put in your mouth every week. Thank you.
@ClintsReptiles
4 жыл бұрын
I totally see where we are missing one another. Most spider ball pythons don't have any difficulties at all. Like with your fish, there are a tiny minority that do. Is the minority higher for spider ball pythons than non-spider ball pythons? I don't know. If those issues were common, I would totally agree that we shouldn't breed them.
@sharkyking4509
5 жыл бұрын
You had many great facts about why spiders can be great pets and thrive in captivity even though they have their neurological defect.but I still would not buy one but I respect your say
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
That is a wonderful position. Thank you for taking the time to hear me out. I really appreciate it, and I totally respect your decision.
@hannah20539
3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting! I do think that something going back to your observations about autism to the spider gene, people with autism are not chosen to have autism. Human genome project is unethical, right? It’s even been deemed unethical to bred disabilities OUT of the human genome. It’s not ethical to control breeding for people. This is just a poor example to compare humans to a animal. So in that idea, the snakes have no choice into a forced life, IF it is in fact a real problem tied with their breeding. It would be silly if we knowingly bred people to have disabilities. Same with the moth mutation, it happened naturally for better camouflage as a reaction to what people were doing through natural selection. The white ones probably died off because they were easier to see and the dark ones better hidden just like the white snake example you talked about. But the different morphs we have of “domesticated” animals are completely man made. It never would have happened without human intervention. Same with the example of your dog baby. As a side note, I don’t think that is a very fair statement to say a generalized statement that people with autism don’t suffer, and that they have super powers. Autism is such a range. Sure there are high function people that do have a special interest and ability to be an expert essentially. But there are also severe cases where they are completely immobilized and nonverbal. There was a girl who couldn’t talk and was in a wheelchair and it wasn’t until much later that people understood that her IQ was much higher but her body failed to show that, in fact most people thought of her as a child near brain dead. She was trapped in her body for years, and eventually she was able to go to college. But she still has to deal with being physically nonverbal and immobile forever. So using a blanket statement is not fair in my opinion to say there’s nothing wrong with autistic people. If you’re talking specifically about people with Aspergers, then that gives a bit more context and you can “generalize” because it is specific to certain traits you were describing. That isn’t to say the whole video was presented super, and was very informative. I have a better understanding of the “issue” now, and I wasn’t really one way or the other. I wasn’t interested in spider morphs. I have heard the exact things you are talking about though, and I agree having the hard conversation is a great place to start (“to realize we aren’t so opposed as we thought”). Thank you for a good video!
@elizabethgrey6040
2 жыл бұрын
I agree that it’s not right for him to compare the spider ball pythons to autistic people (as an autistic person myself) and that it certainly isn’t just some positive superpower that doesn’t come with very difficult aspects as well. However I will say that the girl in the wheelchair seems to be a bit of an odd example. Autism cannot cause someone to need a wheelchair (to my knowledge) and if she couldn’t communicate verbally, was she not given a AAC device? Living in a wheelchair and not being able to verbally speak is certainly not an easy life, but it’s important not to pity people in these situations as many don’t like to be seen as trapped or sad or inspirational or anything like that. Her inability to communicate her own intelligence appears to be a fault of the people around her (no offence to them) not her self -if they didn’t provide AAC or some other way to communicate. So that specific example just feels a little off. But I do agree with you like I said. Autism sucks sometimes, whether that be because of other people not understanding or things that we simply have no control over. Feeling constantly socially anxious and always speaking with a “script”, having certain things I can’t eat or touch because they cause sensory overload, having uncontrollable meltdowns that others shun as being attention seeking, having the inability to shower daily or brush your teeth often because of executive dysfunction. You’re definitely right that it isn’t true to say autism doesn’t come with some suffering. I just wanted to clarify that it causing struggles doesn’t make it something worthy of pity or sadness, doesn’t make it a horrible disease or something. Cause then you get people like Sia saying that nonverbal autistics are like coat hangers and can’t stand up for themselves (which is so inappropriate and wrong). Anyhow yeah no hate just wanted to say that :)
@melissaleigh9119
5 жыл бұрын
I don’t agree with your opinion, I do respect it though I’m not a huge fan of using science as a soapbox to discredit others opinions but that’s not what this is about. I don’t believe that the spider offers anything astounding enough to this world to justify their breeding. I do believe that a breeding that results in any amount of that species having a defect isn’t justifiable. Defect to me isn’t about perfection. With evolution I don’t think that perfection exists exactly. To me defect is about quality of life. A defect contributes to a lesser quality of life. I believe that any amount of animal having a considerable defect related directly to its breeding is too many. Not everyone agrees with that but that’s my stance. I have rescued and currently own four spider morphs. Three don’t exhibit any stress and have minimal wobble. But one has severe issue eating, frequently falls hard, wobbles and stargazed to the extreme. She is the minority but for me, she’s enough. I understand most people may not feel that way but that’s how I feel. Is it an emotional stance? Absolutely. Does that make it any less valid, justified or linked to fact than yours? No. The only comparison to special needs that would even fall near the same scenario would be if a couple sought out to have only children with downs because they found the appearance of children with downs beautiful. That isn’t happening nor will it happen. Other comparisons are crass at best.
@tonyamitchell2143
5 жыл бұрын
BEST comment so far!
@bbseal6174
5 жыл бұрын
Hi Clint, i appreciate the video, but you say that people who want to ban the sell of spiders are often going against a lot so evidence to the contrary. However, I haven't see that evidence. All ive seen is a lack of evidence to their claims. Would you have sources you can link us to? If not, i think that a better conclusion to draw is none. I dont think we can decide until we have evidence.
@Tinyvalkyrie410
5 жыл бұрын
He did link to two studies. It’s not a lot but I think the evidence on both sides are pretty poor. I wish we truly knew more.
@bbseal6174
5 жыл бұрын
@@Tinyvalkyrie410 oh wow! I missed that! Thank you.
@kraziecatclady
Жыл бұрын
I think what I'm most concerned about when listening to people talk about spider ball pythons and neurological defects is when they say that some spider ball pythons have defects so bad that they accidentally bite themselves when trying to feed. That sounds kind of concerning to me and makes me wonder about those kinds of issues and how common that level of severity is. Personally, I don't own any snakes and never have, but I'd like to get a snake after I finally move later this year. I think I want a corn snake, but I'm watching lots of different snake videos to absorb as much information on different species as I can to decide what would be best. We're supposed to go to Repticon in August after we move. I plan on getting a bearded dragon there, but it would be cool to pick up a snake as well. For now, I'm in an apartment with my daughter, a cat, and 3 tarantulas. I've been wanting a beardy for well over two years, but the proper size terrarium would take up too much space in this apartment. There's plenty of room in the house I'm buying. Plenty of room for a snake too if I decide to get one. As for the tarantulas, they are lower maintenance than my houseplants. 😂
@sarah-yv7xj
5 жыл бұрын
Clint, it does seem like you're taking the anecdote that spiders are better eaters and basing your recommendation for them around that. That is surprising since you dismissed the anecdote that a spiders wobble can get dramatically worse to the point that they have trouble eating. That anecdote and the fact that a spider with a bad wobble can crop up in any spider clutch (I believe you acknowledged that in the last video?) makes it difficult for me to support breeding spiders. I agree with your stance that evidence should lead opinion, and I hope we can have more facts to make easier conclusions in the future. Love your work, Clint. Your a great person and an inspiration to animal lovers everywhere.
@mandiejean1994
5 жыл бұрын
I respect your opinion. However I cannot support breeding animals with neurological issues for the sake of beauty and profit. There are a ton of morphs that do not affect reptiles in such a severe manor. The issues being brought up are where the community needs to draw the line for the sake of the reptiles. I do not agree with dog breeders whom do the same thing. I also do not agree with making light of autism. Your examples were only of the light forms of the defects. You did not shed light on to the severe sides of the defects. Also with all do respect we are animals as well and people tend to forget that. We only compare animals and reptiles to ourselves to gauge intelligence etc... Also why are we not finding out what genetics are causing the severe instances in reptiles and animals? For God's sake we mapped the human genome. Also in mapping our genetics why are we not attempting to eradicate severe defects and diseases in our own species? That turns us to the topic that we are being kept sick for the sake of profit. Just look at cancer for instance. There are cures. Humans are responsible for the destruction of our environment. How many species need to be extinct, how much pollution can we do, how much harm can we cause before we learn and say enough? Why do we not have boundaries?
@UnravelingDaily
3 жыл бұрын
I completely respect that you have more knowledge, experience, and research, and I very much respect your opinion. However, from the other reptile owners I’ve heard from and the cases I see, many spiders don’t do well in captivity. The wobble can cause them to accidentally bite themselves, struggle to feed well, mobility, it just makes their life harder. I wouldn’t say that we should outlaw a snake that has a chance of a neurological condition, but every spider ball python has that gene, and in my opinion breeding them is breeding snakes that you know could have difficult lives before they even come out of the egg. From my perspective, this isn’t a worth while payoff for a specific scale pattern. To each their own though, thank you for sharing your experience with them!
@thecompleteanimorph
5 жыл бұрын
As an autistic person, I think your comparison to spider wobble was in very poor taste :/ What you basically just did, from my perspective, was try to use autism to support breeding an animal whose condition may negatively impact its quality of life and really needs to be studied more in-depth. I think of people who support breeding spider BPs, you were doing really well--I appreciated your logical approach and how you addressed BPs with more severe wobble and you've convinced me that we need more information--right up until you brought that up, and I'm very disappointed in that particular approach. I don't think there IS a good way to approach comparing autism to spider wobble and you should not have included that in your video at all.
@freudsghost
5 жыл бұрын
Love this video! Thank you for sharing it, I’m sure it wasn’t 100% easy to make! Spiders are such a controversial topic right now. And while I am against the breeding of them, it’s always always nice to hear what informed people have to say! I have to say that this video is by far the best I’ve seen! I love that this is mostly sparking a really calm and rational conversation between people who disagree! Being on social media, I’ve seen many discussions spiral out because of disgust and anger where constructive communication becomes impossible! So I think videos and conversation starters like this are absolutely a step in the right direction for the reptile community (and globally as well)! Thank you again for this thoughtful and interesting video! I’ll definitely be watching it a few more times!💚🐍
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for saying this. If there is one thing I am willing to stand up for, and even take some abuse for, it is polite discourse. If we can't have respectful conversations, what is left for us?
@technoraptor7778
5 жыл бұрын
Yes but they have issues aiming when striking. People have to pay extra attention to them so that they don't get stuck upside down..or get their teeth snagged on things in the enclosure. Sometimes the constant missing when feeding does stress the animal...my friend has one who has gotten worse over the years...he is doing ok but is very defensive and im worried for the snake because whenever he handles him his corkscrewing gets out of control and he has fallen off the table a few times..I just don't want the snake to accidentally injure himself. I've told the owner to remove the wood hide and replace it with plastic because it's safer and reduces the chances of teeth getting snagged when he misses a strike..same with mesh top cover...it makes it easier to keep an eye on him that way so he's safe.
@TheXxneowolfxX
5 жыл бұрын
This is and always will be the case of "The Garden of Eden." We have all these trees (morphs) that are perfectly fine but we just GOTTA have the fruit of the one tree (spider) that we're not allowed. And to be honest, if I only had my spider bp to go on, I'd call people delusional about the wobble. But I have 2 spiders, and they could not be any further differing than they are. My spinner is rock solid and has not shown a wobble that I've seen and my albino spider is all over the place. They have been side by side in my rack since I got them so they literally have the exact setup and it's been interesting watching them and seeing just how different this morph can manifest itself.
@willspiratejack
5 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video!!! The one point of discussion I have not seen AT ALL in this debate is the quality of life for these snakes. When it comes down to it that’s what counts. We, as humans, might not *like* the wobble, and if a person doesn’t want a spider/doesn’t breed them personally that’s perfectly fine. But, if the snake’s quality of life is on par with any other ball python your personal emotional reaction is irrelevant.
@blackkittycat15
7 ай бұрын
My opinion for all animals is to breed for health over looks, but as much as we like to point our fingers at the breeder the people buying them are just as guilty. If there was no market, people wouldn't breed them as frequently. My least favorite thing is when people "rescue" a pet from a bad seller. That's not a rescue, it's still supporting their bad business and giving the greeder an incentive to do it more.
@jupiter9596
5 жыл бұрын
First off, you've got a great approach to talking about this, and it seems to be that a lot of people agree with that part. It's a similar situation to pugs, bulldogs, and other dogs with similar issues (I say as I have a ckc spaniel, and they're prone to heart issues later down the line, but that's a debate to have another day). That being said, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I'm coming to this as person who's chronically ill, as a person with an invisible illness. I've had to adjust my life to it all. Just because you can't see the stress or suffering, doesn't mean that it's not there. I've seen multiple examples where the neurological issues associated with spiders make life extremely hard for them (failing to strike food properly, biting one's self, etc). Sure, they can live with assistance, but the quality of their life should be the most important. Some can end up fine or with a slight wobble, but you're taking a chance on them being worse, if breeding. That being said, I know I'm going to get arguments against my hypocrisy with my dog. I'm open to questions and having discourse about it. One hundred percent. She's going to be trained as a therapy/service dog for me soon (we hope). That's the main reason I have her. But with spiders, all I really see to their existence is aesthetics. I do appreciate most of the comments section being civil about this topic as well. Always better than having an absolute dumpster fire of comments.
@azuremenagerie2421
5 жыл бұрын
Hi Clint! i love youre channel ♡ but i sadly have to disaggree With you, i think every animals that have issues Such as For an example Pugs,Enigma Leopard gecko morph,etc should not be bred, i have a shihtzu Most of what people see are shihtzus with a short snout but my dog phoebe has a more Long snout (not that long as a Labrador but more Longer than a "purebred" shihtzu) because she was 4% a Mix But it may be different for reptiles idk im not in the world of Breeding animals and i will never will since i do not have the knowledge.but i really love how you explain everything instead of Trying to persuade people and i like a good argument with valid points! But still i disaggree
@ClintsReptiles
5 жыл бұрын
That's totally fine. Thank you for taking the time to sincerely listen. That is so cool of you.
@johnwatters3431
5 жыл бұрын
The only question to ask is: Are you comfortable breeding an animal that may have a higher chance of developing a debilitating nervous condition than would the general population? The extreme examples of head wobble fly in the face of any argument that these animals are fine. No matter how little the chance, are you comfortable with being an active participant in the spread of this disorder? That, I would argue, is the main question. Although I will add that "normal" is subjective, and frankly, once we take an animal into captivity, we undercut the "nature" argument, whether we admit it or not.
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