"Unless you play the game a shitton it's not fun" hbox's response was "this is wrong all you need to do is play the game
@IHateFudge
Жыл бұрын
Literally lmao
@gabrieldoon
Жыл бұрын
Melee feels absolutely awful if you're used to more modern platform fighters. It's pretty much the lack of buffer that makes it hard since you have to actually time your inputs. I love watching Melee, but I'll always be a Rivals of Aether player since that game scratches the same itch without being so hard to pick up. The amount of tech in melee that you have to learn and practice to even feel comfortable is way too high for me.
@tastyfalcon1788
Жыл бұрын
Yeah Melee is much harder game than modern platform fighters, but that doesn’t make it worse. It has an enjoyable learning curve and is rewarding to play. This is coming from someone who has played pretty much all platform fighters and who competes in Ultimate, Project M, and Melee to this day. I’ve even entered Rivals brackets before. I definitely wouldn’t recommend Melee as someone’s first platform fighter, but I would definitely recommend it to anyone looking to improve their gameplay in others. I know that playing Melee has made me better at Ultimate and every other platform fighter as well. Heck, it even made me better at Mario 64
@lemonadestand9628
Жыл бұрын
@@gabrieldoonthe biggest problem imo is the L canceling mixed with buffer for new players, i wish we could have an auto L cancel feature like p+ for casual, that way more people can pick it up without needing to practice a ton
@MrBVS74
Жыл бұрын
I understand this take but I think it's way overblown. You do not need to spend HOURS grinding wavedashing and L-cancelling to understand the movement in Melee. Personally, going from Smash 4 to Melee it took me like 2 or 3 short sessions to get used to the lack of buffer and that's what I think most people are talking about when they say it feels bad.
@Clony17
Жыл бұрын
Oh boy I hope no one says anything bad about my favorite video game Super Smash Brothers: Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube
@joelhutchison5214
Жыл бұрын
anything bad about my favorite video game Super Smash Brothers: Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube
@BreadyMcBased
Жыл бұрын
@@joelhutchison5214damn you
@user-kn8vo2pp8b
Жыл бұрын
Bro💀
@Cm0N.
Жыл бұрын
“OH MEIN GOTT DIS THREAD ISH FULL OF COPENSEETHEN”
@eduardoxenofonte4004
Жыл бұрын
@@joelhutchison5214 😱😱😱
@Mike-vs1gf
Жыл бұрын
The 'ass to control' comment is probably fair. Like if you are just a normal person playin ultimate, and you go to melee for the first time, it will 100% feel clunky. Ulti just kinda lets you dash back and forth and move with a lot more leniency, and buffering / the auto short hop options just make everything so much easier to do. To me, melee 100% feels better to control, but thats after the initial learning phase. i think up front, minute 1, melee will feel clunky and eat tons of inputs for an ulti player
@dknf4036
Жыл бұрын
I've played probably less than 2 hours of Ultimate in my life, and atleast 10 thousand hours of melee. I believe what you are saying is true, truly I do. But I'm fighting against my brain telling me you are wrong because melee is all I know and it feels so perfect to me lol. I remember absolutely despising the way moving in Ultimate feels, but I'm sure I'm just biased
@gintuner4371
11 ай бұрын
^This is me@@dknf4036
@npc_blob1609
11 ай бұрын
Yeah the comment was completely valid, it's echoed by tons and tons of people who try melee without prior experience and Hbox himself even mindlessly said "I think you just have to spend more time on it" when it literally said "unless you dedicate tons of time to it," like come on
@npc_blob1609
11 ай бұрын
@@dknf4036Melee does offer unparalleled control and expression, and Ultimate has a lot of really irritating control niggles, sticky plats etc, both of these are true. What's also true is that both of these only come to be after enough time and familiarity with the games, otherwise Melee feels really bad at first and Ultimate feels intuitive at first. What's such a shame is that these things don't have to be mutually exclusive
@theinktician
11 ай бұрын
i think "clunky" isnt the best way to describe it. I think "jittery" or "obnoxiously slippery" is a better way to describe it. Kinda like playing any platformer, then playing Sonic Heroes.
@grandimations7309
Жыл бұрын
15:56 I agree so hard with this one. You can literally crack 2 eggs, make Black Shadow Captain Falcon's echo fighter, make him play like current Ganondorf, and finally give Ganondorf a more Zelda focused moveset like Float, Dead Man's Volley projectile, that ground punch move from OoT, they have so much to work with from the IP for Ganon, and they used 0.2% of it
@Kohchu
Жыл бұрын
Agree with this completely. As much fun as the DORIYAH Sword Bash is; Ganondorf is not some bulky bruiser. He's a Warlock. He should have more emphasis on aerial evasion and confusion, while having slow but powerful grounded options.
@dinglemcdangledongle
Жыл бұрын
black shadow would have been so cool in melee
@slime-tu8nv
Жыл бұрын
English ???
@alexknight81
Жыл бұрын
@@slime-tu8nv Wdym english? Can you not read?
@0PercentImagination
Жыл бұрын
Glad other people realize Black Shadow would've been literally perfect as Falcon's echo instead of Ganon. As for a new Ganon moveset the things they could get inspiration from is only increasing, he should lowkey have DLC tier status if they represented even part of his overall abilities throughout the games lol.
@argentalis7339
Жыл бұрын
Meteor cancelling just feels like a bug even though it seems to be intended since it made it into brawl. Absolutely crushes some moves that'd be good otherwise.
@TheTrueBrawler
Жыл бұрын
It's worse than you think. Melee uses an extremely narrow range of angles to determine if an attack is classified as a "Meteor Smash", resulting in the existence of "Spikes", downwards-sending moves that have launch angles outside the range and can't be meteor canceled as a result. Because most of Melee's spikes belong to the characters who already would have been the best in the game without meteor canceling (Fox, Marth, Falco, Captain Falcon), it only weakens the characters who still would have been unviable characters without the mechanic and contributes even more to the game's horrendous balancing.
@DylanMatthewTurner
Жыл бұрын
@@TheTrueBrawler Maybe it's spikes that are the glitch and everything was supposed to be cancellable
@crocworks
Жыл бұрын
I always hated how there was a distinction between Meteors and Spikes. I don't care which direction they go, but I just want them to be consistent and let either both be cancel-able or neither be cancel-able.
@TheTrueBrawler
Жыл бұрын
@@DylanMatthewTurner I don't disagree. In fact, there's evidence to suggest what you're saying is true. Marth's Down Aerial was changed to not be a spike in the PAL version.
@dinglemcdangledongle
Жыл бұрын
mario-approved opinion
@dartymissile
Жыл бұрын
I think having fox be the top character IS the reason why melee is so popular. Imagine if the best strat was ledgestalling on puff or chaingrabbing. Look at the next game in the series, the top character was unfun because he had absurd frame data and was designed to ledgestall and camp. Having the top character be pure explosive aggression means that at the highest level the game is always incredibly fun to watch. He is also the most glass cannon character so playing him perfectly is also a fickle thing and makes wins against him very rewarding
@michiganisthebeststate1081
Жыл бұрын
Fox can be played extremely lame and campy tho
@dartymissile
Жыл бұрын
@@michiganisthebeststate1081 This is true, but it isn't objectively optimal, and it often forces other characters to play more confrontationally
@tubesism
11 ай бұрын
Fox is objectively not the most glass canon though. Falco and falcon both get combo’d harder and have worse recovery.
@random_bit
11 ай бұрын
Cope, Fox is inherently a fast character with a kit that allows him to stall out most other characters not named Falcon or Marth. The top brass disliking stalling tactics doesn't make the character aggro inherently, it's just a play-style being dominant not necessarily optimal.
@cornesalvo9366
11 ай бұрын
@@dartymissile I get your point, but know that camping wasn't optimal for meta knight in brawl either.
@user-rc3sw7xk1w
Жыл бұрын
I love melee, but that zen guy is right. So many top players forget how the game feels to casuals because they’ve been using “advanced” movement for so long. Melee is a fighting game without buffer. That’s fucking absurd, and feels like dogshit unless you are willing to overcome the hurdle of learning the tech.
@xoav
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, this was by far the best take. HBox himself fell prey to this the whole video. He acts like his experience playing thousands of hours of the game is the same as everyone else's. Not saying he's wrong, he definitely knows a ton about the game, but he's very very biased. Which is the issue, you either suck or are too deep to remember what it is really like for newcomers.
@mifaro2255
Жыл бұрын
I personnaly was a casual that really liked melee without knowing how to perform advanced techniques. If you really want to have fun with a game, stop thinking about what is optimal and just enjoy. I didn't know what buffer was and i didn't care. I just loved the art direction and the single player content along with unlocking characters, just like the other smash games.
@user-rc3sw7xk1w
Жыл бұрын
@@mifaro2255 you can certainly enjoy a game with flaws. I love brawl, but the tripping mechanic is objectively bad game design. Removing player agency by suspending their control based on rng is just not well thought out, even from a conceptual point of view… I love brawl to death, regardless of it’s issues, but it still feels like ass when i trip. Melee has similar issues, but with the lack of buffer, among other things. Really fun game, but riddled with mechanics that feel terrible to a casual player.
@mifaro2255
Жыл бұрын
@@user-rc3sw7xk1w to me, the most fun i have with these games when i'm not practicing competitively will always be the single player and unlocking everything. It's an occasion to learn the basics of the game while discovering new aspects of it. Which is why i don't like the removal of trophies in Ultimate. But i'm getting off topic. To me, melee has more good than bad. Rivals of Aether fixed a lot of problems in melee but i have a hard time wanting to go back to it, it's not just the buffer or the lack of button mapping, otherwise everyone would be on rivals, project + or Hdr.
@user-rc3sw7xk1w
Жыл бұрын
@@mifaro2255 I get that. I honestly play mostly single player in smash games. I definitely do have fun playing that way, but i still can’t help seeing the parts of the game that feel awkward. Smash ultimate is a similar deal for me. I love that game, and I have a blast every time I play it, but the absurdly long buffer is just strange, and makes the game feel outright goofy without a lot of practice.
@brysonmcfaull1218
Жыл бұрын
9:00 for those who don't know what he means by square of parity, I just looked it up and parity in sports refers to when the 'best' team is not so much better than the 'worst' team so that games become more competitive. Another fun fact, Disparity is the opposite of Parity!
@loganreidy7055
Жыл бұрын
I really feel what Cody said. I had a friend who didn't even play melee tell me that SSC 2023 grand finals was lame because both players were lame, he didn't even watch the vid. He also said Marth mains are a 3/10 max because Marth has chain grabs against 2 characters on 1 stage.
@LordVerdo
10 ай бұрын
Marth and Sheik are vile to play against haha.
@coatlessali
Жыл бұрын
Rivals of Aether has shown me the holy light of the 3 frame tap buffer, and now I can never return. Not having something like it is a massive barrier to entry for older fighting games, and I really hope we never go back to that.
@Gagneto
Жыл бұрын
13:40 there's actually a great video from Leon Massey about this where he compares brawl mk and melee fox, even though both are the best, only one of them was actually good for their respective game because of how they interacted with it
@yimwee2401
Жыл бұрын
You can add smash 4 bayonetta and ultimate minecraft steve to meta knights side now as well. Fox is easily the least toxic #1 fighter throughout smash games.
@CaptainFlippy64
Жыл бұрын
and compare melee fox to ultimate steve, at least high level fox sets are hype to watch. grand finals of ssc 2023, you can hear the commentators struggling to find stuff to get excited about, because it's so campy and slow paced
@strickshot
Жыл бұрын
@@yimwee2401nope smash 64 pika is less
@michiganisthebeststate1081
Жыл бұрын
@@CaptainFlippy64Idk about you but i find marth-puff sets pretty hype.
@CaptainFlippy64
Жыл бұрын
@@michiganisthebeststate1081 i meant for ultimate bro my bad lol
@4xzx4
Жыл бұрын
About the "bad controlling" one: they meant how it's hard to play the game (since the buffer is so low), not the movement options in-game per se.
@Crescence_
Жыл бұрын
I 100% agree with the critiques with the games controls. I tried very hard to get used to, and get somewhat decent with them and I, pardon my language here, Detest them. They feel way to stiff for my and a lot of other people's liking
@SupreMamaco
Жыл бұрын
After playing most recent/modern games, it genuinely feels awful to control your character there. It is really sad. I won't give up, but I must also say that it really sucks
@fayssega
Жыл бұрын
T'es français non ?
@alexanderbateman5581
Жыл бұрын
Just do things slower. I'm not kidding. That's literally all you need to do. Just do things way way way after you think you can start. Trust me, the game becomes insanely easy once you do this.
@Crescence_
Жыл бұрын
@@alexanderbateman5581 trust me I've tried. I don't want to be that kind of guy but when comparing it to other smash games it isnt even comparable when it comes to accessibility
@SupreMamaco
Жыл бұрын
I'm not even talking about accessibility here. Like, if you try out something like RoA, you can control everything smoothly from the get-go. Other than general tech, the characters also have their own unique ones, as usual, but they all feel great to play/control. Melee, not talking about basic Move tech like wavedashing, dashdancing, etc , 'cuz the most elementar ones are really easy to get and implement at a beginner's lvl. I'm talking about the basic character moving. Sometimes turning around, imputing some basic actions. I don't think it is a problem with the absence of buffering, it is simply kinda clunky overall. Maybe it is a bit related to the physics of the game, momentum retaining or something else entirely. But it is really easy to mess a single bit and screw everything else entirely. Or maybe it is the buffering Idk
@bottleneck-5548
Жыл бұрын
Melee Players when playing an unfinished game:
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
BASED
@coffeewithginseng3812
Жыл бұрын
Learning how to play melee is like learning how to play the violin. Both are hard to learn with a steep learning curve but once you overcome that hump, it becomes tremendously fun, rewarding, and beautiful to play.
@andrescube64
Жыл бұрын
I play the Violín and i agree with this statement
@TheTrueBrawler
Жыл бұрын
Can't speak for the violin, but as someone who tried Melee, the process of overcoming the Melee hump feels like genuine ass. You need to learn so much stuff that the process is very off-putting especially if you're someone with experience playing a modern platform fighter such as Ultimate. To just scratch the surface, you need to deal with the lack of a buffer system, L-canceling, dash dancing, foxtroting, wave dashing, wave landing, ledge dashing, ledge hogging, crouch canceling, shield dropping, DI (compared to Ultimate, DI feels so much different in Melee), Survival DI, Combo DI, DI Mixups, Smash DI, Shield DI, lack of option to disable tap jump, performing of Up Tilts with tap jump, lack of option to enable tilt stick, performing of tilts without tilt stick, impact on the game caused by port priority, and dozens of moves with hitboxes and launch vectors (both direction and magnitude) that barely if at all line up with what's going on in the animation. For all the things in that list which also exist in modern Smash titles, I listed it because it's either way more prevalent in Melee (weird-looking moves, port priority) or way different in Melee compared to modern Smash titles (the various forms of DI). That 500 hour remark from the video isn't even an exaggeration. Given how optimized Melee has become as a result of over 20 years of community dedication, intermediate-level grasps on about 80% to 90% of the tech mentioned is 100% necessary if you want to see even remote success at Melee. You can learn almost all of what there is to know about Ultimate in just over half that time including advanced tech and deep knowledge of at least one character that isn't particularly technical, and most people would have way more fun doing it because, unlike Melee, most modern platform fighters actually feel good to control and are fun to play at all levels of play including those where players have only learned the beginner and/or intermediate level mechanics like grabbing, shielding, fast falling, short hopping, teching, et cetera.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@TheTrueBrawleryou can say the same for many other fighting games, people just hyper focus on melee, i find injustice mortal kombat and killer instincts gameplay too be extremly clunkly and unitutive, ive felt that way since mk3, bu5 i dont act like the game needs too change so that i can learn it better, people seriiusly over exagerate the grind too get good at melee, considering the amount of tools and recources out there, its honestly compareable too alot of other fighting games time wise.
@coffeewithginseng3812
Жыл бұрын
@@TheTrueBrawler Honestly, melee being such a complex and difficult game makes it that much more rewarding to play. Besides, you dont necessarily *need* to have a lot og tech skill to be proficient at the game. Just look at Hbox. His tech skill is almost non existent and yet he's one of the greatest player to play the game because he has such a great fundamental. Having tech skill definitely helps but learning the fundamental is much more important.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@TheTrueBrawlerpeople will pit hours onto learning a combo confirm in sf6, or hours learning footsies and drive rush, and shimmying, bur god forbid someone have too learn too use game mechanics, other games might not have as much stuff going on, bit can we cut the act on acting like melees competive scene is the only one thats hard too get good at.
@DylanMatthewTurner
Жыл бұрын
Nah I'm with the guy that said it doesn't have good movement unless you spend a lot of time with the game either growing up with it or dedicating lots of time practicing. When I first started playing melee everything felt stiff by default. Just learning how to do basic movement like dashing and jumping and have that feel even okay takes putting hours into the game. Heck, even though I'm better now, the spacies still feel absolutely awful to me bc I haven't put time into learning them specifically. Forget learning to wave dash; you've gotta learn how to just run and jump where you want to go first lol It's not about Melee not having movement options bc obviously it has a ton; it's that basic movement doesn't feel good, and you have to just get used to it.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
I mean i feel this way about mortal kombat, killer instinct and injustice, but i dont call it a game issue. Its a me issue.
@DylanMatthewTurner
Жыл бұрын
@@ZombieKitty321 I'd be happy to explain the difference to you. MK, KI, and Injustice are irrelevant bc they're all tournament fighters; totally different style of movement and movement is not nearly as relevant as a platform fighter. With Melee, it's a game issue bc for other platform fighters, basic movement tends to feel fine to everyone, pros and noobs alike. Just melee doesn't feel good lol. It's a game issue bc it doesn't hold up in comparison to others in its subgenre and bc it's such a vital part of that subgenre. A platform fighter needs to feel good to move around in. Melee only starts to feel good when you get adjusted to it whereas games like Ultimate or Rivals or whatever feel good from the get go.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@DylanMatthewTurner You don't need to explain anything, i don't like how the game feels, ive tried them out, ive tried too lab them, they always feel clunky. every other platform fighter ive played has felt like melee and ive had little too issues noticing how "Different" they feel other than general mechanics. My point being my guy, is that not all games are the same, and if you don't like it you don't need to give a 10 page essay on how it could be changed. Also, I invite you too do the same thing your explaining in melee in any other fighting game, just never lab and try and win and see what happens. Its a dumb argument because time investment and getting good at a fighting game are synonymous, and every game has a diffirent time to entry barrier. its comparing apples too oranges.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@DylanMatthewTurner Also for the record, Its only those 3 i have a problem with. GGS Blaz, street fighter, Undernight, skullgirls ect all feel fine too me, I just really dont like MK KI and INjustice
@xoav
Жыл бұрын
@@ZombieKitty321 Doesn't this last point invalidate the previous rant? There are definitely games that you can pick up and movement feels nice. As stated, GG, BB, etc. While others where it feels clunky until you have played for a while. Melee definitely falls into the later. Doesn't mean its bad, or not rewarding to learn. But it does mean it will put some people off from playing it. Which is what the other dude was saying. Do you still play MK/KI/Injustice?
@oppositecatchyghost8025
Жыл бұрын
I disagree with HBox on the KryZen opinion. There are tons of fun movement options in Melee such as wavedashing and L-canceling, but KryZen is specifically referring to the amount of practice needed to get those techniques down being a barrier of entry. I experience the exact same thing and it's the reason I will only play Melee at a casual level but will practice tech in games like Rivals of Aether which is just as smooth but needs less practice to wavedash and has auto canceling.
@davedanger4414
Жыл бұрын
I picked up Melee for the first time since I was a kid and learned those techniques in a few days. I taught 2 friends who literally had never played Melee in their lives and they got it down pretty quickly, too. The hard part is implementing it into your game. L-Cancelling was even easier. I mean, I still mess up both, but watch a pro match and pros do, too. Also, I feel like a lot of the "control" issues of this game are solved by overclocking your adapter. If most people are playing through an adapter with a gamecube controller, then they are experiencing a lot of input delay. I noticed input delay when I stopped messing around on Melee with my xbox one controller and switched to an OEM gamecube controller.
@oppositecatchyghost8025
Жыл бұрын
@@davedanger4414 Alright but why should I have to do these things to enjoy the game? Your game should be fun first and technical second, and unfortunately Melee has it the other way around. If I want to pick it up and play it why would I when there is a much more accessible Smash game in Ultimate and a much more accessible technical platform fighters like Rivals of Aether and Slap City?
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@oppositecatchyghost8025 A: Then dont play it. B: you dont have too know these things too enjoy the game, if your queing on slippi, your going too be playing against people that are playing competitively, thats what slippi was made for, so we could have online melee during the pandemic, Im sure you could find a casual player ground and just fuck around, but dont act like the game needs to change because your mad that your trying too play in a competitive environment and losing,
@oppositecatchyghost8025
Жыл бұрын
@@ZombieKitty321 A. I don't, but I can still have an opinion on it. B. I don't play on Slippi, I have a GameCube and my own copy, and even against AI playing the game isn't as fun as a beginner level for all the reasons I listed and with what Fatality said in the video.
@ZombieKitty321
Жыл бұрын
@@oppositecatchyghost8025 what are you on about? So the game was just magicly not one of the most popular party games when it released? My guy the point is you can not like the game, but dont try and have an opinion about something you clearly dont even understand.
@DSmith3279
Жыл бұрын
The fact that doing something as simple as dashing backwards consistently requires a noteworthy level of skill, precision, and timing hurts Melee's credibility in my eyes.
@rarecrom
Жыл бұрын
I’m not even kidding, it maybe takes 3-5 sessions to learn how to wave dash consistently every time
@DSmith3279
Жыл бұрын
@@rarecrom Not Wavedashing, dashing BACKWARDS. Simply dashing in the opposite direction your character is facing.
@zaneji4751
Жыл бұрын
@@DSmith3279nuh uh
@jomjim3906
Жыл бұрын
“The fact that the game takes skill, precision, and timing to do something simple hurts it’s credibility” might be wrong and dumb in literally any context rofl that is the contrived non argument I’ve ever heard it doesn’t even work as a statement.
@GiveMeTheButt
Жыл бұрын
not true. dashback has been free for years since we switched to UCF. literally takes 0 practice.
@friendlykoala
Жыл бұрын
As a Tekken player, I also think movement shouldn't be that hard to master in fighting games. I like to believe we should be focusing on frame data, matchups and mindgames to get good at the game, and spending weekly hours of practice just to smoothly move back and forth sometimes feels like a waste of time. Of course I don't want to just remove technical aspects like Nintendo did from Melee to Brawl, making the technical stuff more lenient would have made a fine middle ground. Like a longer window for L cancels for example.
@GoldGuard
Жыл бұрын
L cancels are pointless and should’ve never been a thing in the first place. It’s just an unnecessary barrier that makes the game harder than it needs to be. As much as I love Melee, L cancelling is just a burden on the gameplay
@James-ek3mb
11 ай бұрын
I like L-canceling. It gives the game character and rhythm
@jambott5520
11 ай бұрын
It's a different style of fighter. The movement in traditional fighters is slow paced on purpose, movement is not the focus. It is important, but the point of those games is not the moving, the jumping, the crouching, the dodging. Some may have gimmicks surrounding it, tekken does with it's wacky 3D shenanigans, but it's still not the main focus. The main focus is the moves. Every character has an insane move pool, with lots of moves requiring long strings of button presses, which need to be memorised. These games have a large focus on that. Not to say footsies is not important, but that aspect is shared both by smash and traditional fighters. For smash, the main focus is the movement. It is about how you get around just as much as what moves you use. This is in part why the move pools are a lot smaller, because you so not need a large move pool like traditional fighters to produce as many options those games present a player at any moment when you have so many different movement options to play with. Just as you have said you don't think movement should be hard to master in fighting games, smash players may think that the moves themselves should not be hard to master. That you should not have to spend years narrowing down which moves are good, and when to use each move in any situation out of 100's of moves. It's a difference in style.
@friendlykoala
11 ай бұрын
@@jambott5520 Allow me to politely disagree. Tekken is indeed full of different moves and can be judged by that, but the higher the level of play, the fewer moves you will use. Competitive Tekken is essentially 2 people blasting their wrists with a clunky backdash cancelling until they find an opening to land one of the few important moves they have in the neutral. ( you can watch a recent set between Knee and PhiDX, both players playing optimal Tekken). Most of the creativity in the moveset you get is from combos. Before getting that combo, movement is still the most important part of the game... Well I could simply say it's the most important part of any fighting game. Also, jumping is not as present as in Smash, but crouching is easily more present in these games than in Smash. And in other traditionnal fighting games the core gameplan in the neutral is still to outspace the opponent, and the game design is rather intuitive about it with no convoluted tech to just move around. No pressing forward to block an attack while being backturned, no zigzag to perform a quick back air. I just wanted to say both Tekken and Smash suffer from making it difficult to just use movement while it's the most important part of the game. I simply feel like difficulty should come with things you don't absolutely need, to let players develop their own personnality according to what they are willing to master. That is the case with Peach's float combos, and Icies' grab combos, it's exactly the kind of difficulty that I respect : it makes the game feel rewarding, precisely because the player chose to face the difficulty of mastering those moves, that are technically just an extra.
@jajajahdhdhshd9071
10 ай бұрын
I think ultimate is the perfekt game for you
@calebrobinson6406
Жыл бұрын
Sheik needle blocks charge shot because needles have a hurtbox. The charge shot doesn't distinguish between a character hurtbox and a projectile hurtbox so it connects.
@kingarth0r
11 ай бұрын
I really don't understand the "if I can't have fun IMMEDIATELY it's not fun" argument. There are so many rewarding and fun hobbies in life that take a lot of time before you can start having fun. Things like music and sports come to mind when I think of things that can take a long while of practice before you can have fun. It can take years of practice on an instrument before you can start "having fun". I know some people like games where you don't need to think much and that's fine but calling a game bad because having fun takes some investment it's just childish. If anything it makes the experience more rewarding because you put the effort in.
@baronobeefdip8075
11 ай бұрын
if an instrument needs 500 hours to be fun, then it's not a fun instrument :)
@darklightprojector2688
10 ай бұрын
There are a lot of things you can do that are fun from the start. Most video games should be fun to play right off the bat. If they aren't, then they're not doing their job. After all, video games are simply entertainment. The majority of people don't make any money off of video games, yet they take them seriously like they're some sort of job--mostly because of competitive's influence. I cam here to listen to what people have to say about Melee's shortcomings and discuss them. But otherwise, competitive isn't worth paying attention to.
@ms.horrible9510
Жыл бұрын
i think the worst thing abt melee is how fucking obtuse it is, many essential mechanics (especially defensive ones) are not explained anywhere unless you dig into community stuff completely on your own di, sdi, asdi, slide-offs, shield drop, sweetspot recovery, and crouch cancel are all really important and unless you watch like 2 hours of random youtube videos from like 8 years ago then you'll have no idea why you die so soon and why your opponents live so long
@Trololo231
Жыл бұрын
Melee is such a beautiful game to watch, to me the real shame is that the tournaments are still small and people don't get the chance to make a living playing the game. My dream for Melee would be to see a tournament with 1kk prize pool and finals Mango vs Hungrybox.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
WTF does "1kk" mean lol, that's not a fucking number
@CommentPositionInformer
11 ай бұрын
@@MelodyGoad "k" stands for a thousand. 2k is two thousand. 2kk is two million ( 2 * 1000 * 1000)
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
@@CommentPositionInformer that’s not how you use that suffix though. you can only have one k. 2 million should be 2m
@CommentPositionInformer
11 ай бұрын
@@MelodyGoad It's not as common, but I have seen people use kk before, so idk.
@fumoffu_l
Жыл бұрын
I have to agree with the ass to control aspect. Even before Melee we had fighters that implemented a buffer so you weren't dropping combos because you aren't frame perfect. And modern fighters even implement these 1-frame links for those that are that consistent. And I played a lot of melee way back when. But going back to it feels super clunky compared to going back to something like like SF2, or MVC2. Even a small 1-2 frame buffer compared to the lack of a buffer would make the game more accessible and more fun to control. And as others have already pointed out, there is a mountain of tech to learn even if you never learn to wave dash and L cancel. Even playing casually it just feels worse.
@MyNameIsntRyan
11 ай бұрын
Difficult to execute combos should exist though. This allows players to decide between risky combos they might drop in tourney or safer combos that are consistent but do less damage. If anyone could pick up and play Fox with no execution barrier, the game would actually be broken
@madduxnagel6935
3 ай бұрын
@@MyNameIsntRyan I don't think he's talking about combos though, more about literally just MOVING. Something as simple as dashing in the opposite direction requires a near frame-perfect input in a very specific analog direction. Just being able to land and act out of one of my aerials in a reasonable time requires a frame-perfect input. Precision is good for tech skill and play at the top level, but requiring frame-perfect inputs to do something as simple as MOVE AROUND is ridiculous
@Daft0Cean968
Ай бұрын
@@madduxnagel6935agree heavily, I feel like if the basic movements were easier to do then Melee's movement would truly be near perfect. I still feel like once you get over a learning curve it's near perfect anyways, but that's the exact issue. Although I found it fun from near the start, a game which can require a learning curve to be fun to many is definitely a point against the game.
@FastBreak-xn2yh
Жыл бұрын
Melee players: why can Melee be updated with balanced gameplay 😢 *PAL MELEE Announced and exists* Melee players: oh never mind 😕
@ImCookieSparx
Жыл бұрын
Because PAL doesn’t have bloodshed. And it would be hard to switch to EU’s port.
@tastyfalcon1788
Жыл бұрын
Melee players don’t want the game to be balanced though. They want to play the game as it is, only with online and UCF
@theobserver4214
Жыл бұрын
Because PAL nerfs are stupid and arbitrary. Fox is still the best character but now he needs to lasercamp a bit longer before upsmash, and gets KO’d a tad bit earlier. Marth’s down-air is useless but now he can’t be waveshined. But now Ganondorf and Mario get nerfed, Game and Watch isn’t fixed at all and Kirby gets buffed enough to still remain second worst in the game (now the gap between him and Bowser is a bit bigger). Doesn’t fix the real issues with the characters only makes the top tiers less fun
@farmingsim9813
Жыл бұрын
PAL Melee's balancing updates weren't really great though, sure Marth, Sheik Fox and Falco all got nerfed, but they were still in the same place or close on the last PAL tier list, it's also worth noting that PAL nerfed characters that are already not great such as Ganondorf and Mario, the only characters I can see really winning from PAL are Yoshi and Puff, with Yoshi getting a weight increase, and everyone else still being worse enough to help them out.
@theobserver4214
Жыл бұрын
@@farmingsim9813 we both commented at the same time lmao. Also PAL is still busted because of Puff, shiek and Peach. Fox isn’t the gatekeeper of Melee IMO, it’s those three. Peach shuts down Icies, another high tier so hard even with wobbling lopsiding the matchup, and Puff is too nimble and strong for characters like Link, Ganondorf, and G&W. In PAL with the nerfs to Marth and Fox, those two become more viable. Shiek got a few noticeable nerfs but she’s still way too hard to play against if you’re below Yoshi.
@YoutubeCommonman_Totas
11 ай бұрын
I feel that if there's any character that deserves a rework, it'd be ganondorf. It's clear that the formula Nintendo has been using for ganondorf hasn't been working. So I'll spare them the time: Keep his jab, f-tilt, down tilt, smash attacks, throws, fair, dair, side special, and final smash the same Give him a hover similar to peach Change his Down special to the custom move "drop kick" from smash 4 Change his neutral special to a ball of energy that locks on to the enemy similar to Palutena's, does heavy damage, and breaks through normal reflectors. However it's slow and can be reflected by sword and weapon attacks. Change his up special to a teleport, where you become a ball of dark magic that controls like Ness and Lucas's PK thunder. Reappearing after some time Change his up tilt to an uncharged version of his old up smash Change his nair to something similar to Mewtwo's, maybe instead it's one powerful hit. Change his up air and back air to something that isn't the exact same as falcon's This would make him more of an air based heavy, something we haven't really seen, while keeping some of that ganondorf flare he had.
@illford
Жыл бұрын
Honestly the tweet from zen isn't false, it's just applicable to every platform fighter. Melee feels bad at first because you see all this cool stuff and then you play it and realise it takes a while to be consistent at it, but then you have to go even deeper to stuff that isn't nearly as surface level. Watching player inputs makes this feel even worse due to the fact it looks like they're mashing but you know they aren't but because it's so fast you can't really follow it at all.
@Glorious_Mane
Жыл бұрын
I'd play melee every day if I could turn tap jump off. Since I can't, I'm just not going to play.
@jordanshore838
Жыл бұрын
Fox is the best #1 character to have in Melee. Imagine the horror of having 25% of players be Jigglypuff, Sheik, or Marth. How boring and oppressive would the game be? I am not a Fox player, but... Fox is undeniably hype to watch, fast, and aggressive. This is critical because he is also very fragile making him a fun character to play against, at least compared to the other top tiers. Let's compare Fox to Falco. Falco is similarly easy combo food and edge guardable, but his lasers stun. This makes Falco much more oppressive than Fox because his lasers freeze you in place or limit your options so it feels like you can't do anything. Same with Marth, his sword and grab are so long and disjointed you might feel like you literally can't even get close enough to ever hit him. This is the core of why I agree with Hbox here. Fox doesn't limit you in what you can do, but he can beat you no matter what you do. I think there are very few other characters that would be ok to have as #1. Captain Falcon is probably the only safe replacement, but I'm not sure it would better than Fox. So when people complain about Fox you have to consider the alternative, someone has to be the best character, who would you want it to be? And more importantly, who could it be and still have melee be a good game?
@tsurenami
Жыл бұрын
This is a great question. Fox is by far and away the best in melee - but it feels healthy. Fox is not nearly as abhorrent as brawl meta knight or smash 4 bayo
@btf_flotsam478
Жыл бұрын
There is one massive downside to Fox being the best character: sice Falco often has the same weaknesses as Fox, the anti-Falco metagame advances far faster than Falco's metagame.
@captainphoton1693
Жыл бұрын
i agree with that guy that said its ass to control. Like for real. if you dont get used to the stupidly strict controls its really bad. That does not take away from the amazingness that is the end result. the movements techs and stuff. thats amazing. (well fatality sumed it up right after i typed this comment) (welp 17:11 still misse the point, altought this guy was clearly trying to get reactions)
@zachariahanderson4203
Жыл бұрын
I would love to see ultimates control mapping options. I’m slowing down as time goes on and I’d like ways to make it easier for me to play. It would also allow us to not have to physically kid the controller or pay an absurd amount to do it
@e.m.2168
Жыл бұрын
Honestly it makes a lot of sense to add the ability to change your control layout if you’re already modding melee
@adjmonkey
Жыл бұрын
Part of the problem is something like UCF is very easy to make subtle and not easy to tell. Good luck adding a whole new menu to the game (in a tourney setting) without Nintendo noticing and shutting that down. Edit: Also, part of a mechanically difficult game is the physical difficulty. Maybe disabling tap jump should be a thing by holding a button when plugging in the controller or something, but rebinding is almost too far imo. Z-jumping for example makes playing a technical fox playstyle a lot easier and less error prone for example.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
@@adjmonkey UCF already buffed the SHIT out of Marth by making pivot tippers actually fucking viable to use in tournaments, which Zain has used a TON.
@asg8086
Ай бұрын
This might be controversial but I'm not a big fan of L-cancelling. Other techniques like dashdance or wavedash are simply tools to add to your kit, but there are situations in which is better not to use them or using them simply allow you to be more consistent with other things, but realistically, there is no reason not to use L-cancel every time you do a landing aerial. It's a somewhat precise technique that new players have trouble controlling that could be simply implemented into the game by cutting landing lag by half. It's a barrier that doesn't allow a lot of self- expression because it needs to be used 100% of the time.
@MrGetownedLP
Жыл бұрын
14:10 Juan "Hungrybox" Manuel DeBiedma or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Fox
@MenderMan
11 ай бұрын
my biggest gripe is that Ness is not fun to play even casually. why does only one of his smash attacks actually work
@kkletsplay_
Жыл бұрын
I actually like that there is no buffer in melee it feels more fluid. Just me though. One thing i hard disagree is that melee graphics didnt age well. Imo compared to many other retro games, melee graphics are still good.
@dinglemcdangledongle
Жыл бұрын
idk why but the graphics were the reason i was interested in the game, coming from smash 4/ultimate
@RevolverJ98
Жыл бұрын
I have to agree melee controls feel awful for newcomers. No buffer makes it feel like your inputs are being eaten, and you have to be super precise to pull off even a standard competitive level combo, but once that barrier is passed, the game is super expressive and a joy to run
@typhoon1575
Жыл бұрын
Let's not overstate The devs noticing wave dash existing during development as it being intentional. The way you land while doing a directional air dash was intended. Z-canceling was intended. And they noticed and didn't care that the, at the time, primitive wave dashing method existed, or perhaps weren't even able to fix it due to time constraints. but in the way it's used in modern melee. Wave dashing is an intended mechanic used in an unintended way. Due to the fact that they had no way to know how effective a mechanic it would be. That said, because it's in the game it's made melee the fastest game in the series who who cares.
@WhitePointerGaming
Жыл бұрын
They noticed it, Sakurai said "that's interesting", but they were unable to fix it in the time constraints. Melee was already an incredibly rushed game that was completed in only about 13 months, and fixing washdashing would have required an entire rewrite of the physics engine, which clearly wasn't going to happen. It's definitely unintentional, but wasn't something they could fix.
@ValRabbit
Жыл бұрын
All this means is that it's an exploit of an intended or known about mechanic. Not a bug nor a glitch.
@wolfpacker90
Жыл бұрын
@@ValRabbit Do you realize that a glitch or bug can be known about and unfixed and it's still considered a glitch/bug?
@typhoon1575
11 ай бұрын
@wolfpacker90 a glitch/bug is an unintended behavior or error in function This is an oversight of several mechanics working as intended, but being pushed and optimized to their limit, and becoming more optimal than the standard likely intended way to play.
@El_Mince
Жыл бұрын
I think the newer games have spoiled me but I agree that the controls are off. No buffer system really hurts
@PlanetZoidstar
Жыл бұрын
Kirby got nerfed into the ground. Most of his moves are unviable in competitive. He's slow. Weak. And light. He really has no strengths outside of good tilts. Pichu, the joke character, is better than Kirby.
@Pirate_Booty
Жыл бұрын
If Melee dies it will be because of gatekeeping
@Antics456
Жыл бұрын
laughable
@crabwalktechnic
Жыл бұрын
it's not gatekeeping. it's "clicky"
@maxshade1815
Жыл бұрын
@@crabwalktechnicso gatekeeping?haha
@zogbogbean2464
Жыл бұрын
More ult kids crying. They will admit someday that melee is just more fun and popular. They cling to their modern pearls.
@NintenJoeGamer
Жыл бұрын
@@zogbogbean2464 No, it really is not more fun lol. How about just simply respecting people's opinions rather than 'oh one day they'll see the light!' as if that's completely factual and not opinionated just like everything else. Also what is it more popular based on? There's not just a single thing that makes it the more popular option. Ultimate is MUCH more casual friendly which I know you guys HATE to hear this but.... *the casual audience curb stomps the competitive audience.* It wouldn't be nearly as bad if melee had buffer imo. I also just find melee so boring to watch due to it seemingly always being only fox/falco or marth
@Matpit18
Жыл бұрын
The worst thing about Melee is how much Nintendo destroys any attempt at reviving it back into the limelight
@dknf4036
Жыл бұрын
fuck nintendo
@Masaru_kun
Жыл бұрын
"one top player of lesser characters like... Jmook" excuse me, does Plup need to win more majors or something?
@fumoffu_l
Жыл бұрын
A comment on "Fox is a good best character." I'm sure it feels that way in a vacuum. But we're seeing this issue in almost all fighters that "pixies" are the best characters. And this has been a problem ever since Akuma in Street Fighter. This idea that "well they have bad defense and a die quicker" isn't a real downside. The glass isn't a factor if the canon is too strong. And that's what we've had for decades. That's honestly why I'm so hype on grapplers being good in SF6. Finally we have a game where pixies aren't the best, and every other archetype is just shit in comparison.
@guypoe244
Жыл бұрын
One word, leffen
@SophSophSoph298
Жыл бұрын
I think the thing i hate melee the most is that its ironically the most like a traditional fighting game, in the sense that the game is really hard and unrewarding when picking up and for a more casual person like me
@WellToastedBagel
Жыл бұрын
5:20 As an Ult player who in the past decided to try and get good with Flaco in Melee. I feel like Melee is the Manual car of platform fighters. Sure, in your beginnings your gonna feel its a bit clunky. But as soon as you get better at handling it, it is easily one of the smoothest experience you will ever have. I did get some surprising results in friendlies against one of the better players in my region, and I am honestly surprised I didn't continue my journey in "getting good' at melee. Falco combos are so uniquely melee, that I can never get enough of watching a good Falco do well.
@dknf4036
Жыл бұрын
Well said, and just like melee most people who learn to drive manual tend to enjoy it more than automatic. My dad "forced" me to get a manual car for my first vehicle and I've now had 16 vehicles and only 1 of them was automatic. . and it was because I crashed my manual car and was offered a deal on an automatic I basically couldnt refuse at the time lol.
@infinityheart_tm9270
11 ай бұрын
It’s like shifting from using MKWii Automatic to Manuel(w/inside drifting bikes). The second that shit clicks, it’s impossible to go back because of how cool it is.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
>Flaco AFLAC
@Astar72439
Жыл бұрын
Fox’s one big disadvantage is every character can just combo him since he falls so quickly, and that makes him still feel fun to play against as a midtier.
@Mepphy99
Жыл бұрын
melee has a big problem it can't be put on virtual console 0:50 actually Sakurai saying he noticed just means he know about it maybe they never were able to remove it since ... Melee development time
@MelloCello7
Ай бұрын
5:49 his reaction is so entirely understated, one of THEE best aspects about melee (if you're playing on crt or low latency monitor) is the movement, like, even if you aren't doing anything or fighting anyone, even without tech, movement feels like a dream, and when you add tech, you're livin that dream!
@mifaro2255
Жыл бұрын
I personnaly was a casual that really liked melee without knowing how to perform advanced techniques. If you really want to have fun with a game, stop thinking about what is optimal and just enjoy. I didn't know what buffer was and i didn't care. I just loved the art direction and the single player content along with unlocking characters, just like the other smash games.
@frogturtle
11 ай бұрын
the ganondorf comment is so based. in ultimate some of his worst moves are still plagued by being crappy descendants of melee falcon’s discount toolkit. giving him the sword in ultimate was a good step. and hbox was also on point saying if games have different best characters, why should the worst characters be the same too?
@SonicTheCutehog
Жыл бұрын
I don't get how people think L-Canceling is a glitch when it had to be deliberately programmed to every aerial to half its landing lag when done and Mr. Game & Watch not being to L-Cancel most of his aerials because they were accidentally programmed as Special Moves.
@dknf4036
Жыл бұрын
I wouldn't get too worked up about it, nobody who plays melee calls it a glitch so at the end of the day who cares what they think lol
@Hegaems
3 ай бұрын
We know L-Canceling is intended, but it's a plain stupid mechanic that Sakurai rightfully removed in later games, can't blame who thinks it's a glitch. Why the hell would a game dev think "the players should press an extra button EVERY SINGLE TIME they land while performing an aerial attack"? It's only purpose is to artificially increase skill floor
@Risky_Boots999
Жыл бұрын
'you have to play the game a lot or it feels like ass' hbox: you gotta play the game more lol
@crackedmateria4991
11 ай бұрын
"Unless you dedicate a lot of time to getting somewhat decent, it genuinely feels like ass to control" He's right. Once you REALLY get used to Melee, it's beautiful and buttery smooth and everything you do feels responsive and great. But there is a genuine, really long period you have to go through to get used to it. It's one of those games that feels almost impossibly clunky before you get used to it, thanks in part to a lack of buffering compared to other games. All bro was saying is that it takes a long time to get to the skill floor.
@FrostburnICS
Жыл бұрын
hbox's haircut makes looks like a used car salesmen (which isn't that far off from what he actually does LMAO)
@dinotech3416
Жыл бұрын
So I’m still on the fence. Wavedash, still seems like it wasn’t intended.. so people who say it’s not a glitch.. to me it’s not as white or black in this case but more of a gray area. Note that’s sakuri says” of course, we “NOTICED “ that you could do that during development “. Implying that it was something that was not intentional but when it was found was left. To me, I don’t think Luigi wave landing on the stage from ledge with I-frames sliding 30 ft is intentional. People think their melee is more special than it is, yet people don’t give melee enough credit either. Anyway , I love wavedashing and I would not have it any other way. I just think people who say it’s intentional don’t try to see the whole picture. Now I don’t think it’s a glitch, a better example would be backwards long jump from Mario 64. I don’t think the creator of that game saw that Mario backwards speed had no cap and said, oh well , we will leave that in for fun. It’s more that they tried to create the best game that they could.. no patch’s, no dlc, they only had one shot in most cases. But hey, a lot of people regardless don’t say blj’s are cheating, its now just adds replay ability . Wavedashing added more depth, even if intended or not, and that’s what I’ll like about older games. I’m not really taking a stance, but I am curious what you guys think ?
@bobblack2081
3 ай бұрын
The joke amongst us Dota 2 players is that you only complete the tutorial after 5,000 hours. If melee is only 500 i might have to pick it up.
@bayc3715
Жыл бұрын
Cant really say we wouldn't have platform fighters without Melee when Smash Bros 64 came out before it.
@icomeinpeace777
Жыл бұрын
Biobirb makes a great point. While I don't think melee has been topped yet I do believe there is a game that could surpass it as the pinnacle of platform fighters. Melee however has laid a fantastic foundation.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
Ultimate is already a much better competitive game than Melee simply because it's both FAR more accessible and FAR more balanced.
@HeDronHeDronHedron
10 ай бұрын
@@MelodyGoad mad issue
@Brand-us9uo
Жыл бұрын
5:20 I think the problem is that everyone has been watching pro melee for 20 years, the expectation for tech skill is so insane nowadays that new players feel like they need to run 1000 hours of drills before they even start playing.
@davedanger4414
Жыл бұрын
Yeah, that's definitely part of it. Or getting mad that there isn't buffering. It's like watching CSGO tournaments and being mad you're not s1mple or being mad that you don't have aim assist to help you.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
Bruh I can't even fucking find matches on Slippi because I'm so bad, even connecting directly to another player doesn't work anymore.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
@@davedanger4414 Bruh, in CSGO, you can literally shoot directly at your enemy multiple fucking times and still never hit them. It's bullshit.
@Aguni_0
Жыл бұрын
>Say something bad about this game >99% of the takes are about the community, not the game Twitter back at it again.
@salreishopemobile
Жыл бұрын
8:06 definitely not true, at least in my scene. people love low tiers and root for them all the time. i am a ganon main and people are always down to play friendlies.
@yunggunna6309
Жыл бұрын
I want to learn this game and I've been playing slippi for a while but, when I go against a good player instead of trying to help me learn they just troll. It makes it really hard for me to want to play especially since I play roy who's already pretty bad.
@optimus_rhymes6955
Жыл бұрын
Melee is and will always be the most punk rock game of all time. It was a party game where the players turned it into what it is today. that defied Nintendo AND WON! At least in 2013. It’s always reminded me of the CBGB story in New York. It wasn’t used the way it was intended. The people made it their own.
@n00blord14
Жыл бұрын
I definitely agree that Melee feels clunky and unpolished. Also, having a governing body doesn’t work because it’s not enforceable. What are you gonna do if TO’s don’t follow the rules you say they have to? As long as they can get attendees, you can’t stop them.
@leacwm
Жыл бұрын
Sakurai being aware of wavedashing doesn't make it a feature, he said it was a glitch they didn't have time to patch
@DewMan31
Жыл бұрын
5:21 I can understand where this comment is coming from as someone that has played Melee and Project M a little bit. I recently started getting better at L canceling and wavedashing, but for the longest time, these two games have felt really sluggish and stiff to control, at least compared to Ultimate and other platform fighters on the market right now. When you play at a high level, yes, it does feel like one of the fastest games ever, but for someone just getting into playing it "it genuinely feels like ass to control".
@ghostbaleada
Күн бұрын
I think a toggle for tap jump and c stick tilts would literally change the game in a good way so people can choose whether they want it or no
@xxduckperson465
Жыл бұрын
“Unless you play it a shitton it feels like ass to control” even if you play ult a shitton it feels like ass to control….
@ronaid-with-an-i
Жыл бұрын
The biggest issue with this game is that luigi isn't top 1
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
lmao
@eyy_man1162
3 ай бұрын
True asf
@four-en-tee
11 ай бұрын
All i'm gonna say is "I can't play Melee for the life of me, but i can just into NASB just fine" Its like if you're used to driving an automatic, and then you tried to drive a stick shift.
@wildmonkeycar
Жыл бұрын
I just hate Melee because it's the game that every other game gets compared to, to the point where most platform fighters that exist nowadays are just trying to be Melee. Seriously, every platform fighter that has been made by a AAA company (that isn't Nintendo itself) is like a checklist of Melee features slapped onto a sub-par product with very little effort behind it. Seriously, only Rivals of Aether comes close to being the game everyone wants, but everyone ignores it because it doesn't have super-recognizable characters
@yumbream
Жыл бұрын
Idk, RushRevo is diverging from its melee/PM roots by implementing a bunch of anime fighter mechanics, and NASB is going even further with metered system mechanics and EX moves. The only game that ripped from melee alone is probably the original Icons
@baval5
11 ай бұрын
"If melee didnt lay the foundation for platform fighters I dont know what did" Uh....Super Smash Brothers?
@sczoot6285
Жыл бұрын
Being a tap jumper just makes sense with jigglypuff I think
@jiaan100
Жыл бұрын
5:26 i get it. Its not a huge amount of time to learn, but the restrictions and differences between dash and run is rough when youre new. It's important for the game though.
@jiaan100
Жыл бұрын
Limited and non existent buffer windows adds a cool consistency vs speed trade-off, but feels fucked up coming from modern games
@WallessJ
Жыл бұрын
Gotta say pretty L take on the low tiers Hbox. The whole point of the comment is that the community assumes you are sandbagging and refuses to play you. But if nobody plays you, you can't improve and if you can't improve then you will get stuck as a bad player. If you get into a match, play it out. Just play it out my dude, it's called good sportsmanship
@kingarth0r
11 ай бұрын
Zen logic be like: Violin is a bad instrument because it takes skill to do simple things
@CrimsoniteSP
11 ай бұрын
5:20 I agree with this but only because I know why it feels bad for newer players. Melee doesn't have input buffering, which is something a lot of games offer. Even 3 frame buffers help a ton. But having 0 input buffer means that all actions are done frame perfect. Which is something you can mitigate through practice but to just pick up and play, it feels awful. And just in case, input buffering is just the game recognizing your controller inputs early and will apply that input as soon as possible unless it's outside of the frame buffer window. If you ever wonder why Ultimate feels jank and presses buttons for you, it's because it has a 10 frame buffer window.
@Wattmelon
Жыл бұрын
16:20 I mean Melee's definitely the founding father of the majority of platform fighters, there's no arguing that. The peak tho... I'm biased cuz I play Rivals, but there's a LOT with Melee that's shown its age and later games do much better. Definitely wouldn't call it the be all end all peak of plat fighters.
@666blaziken
Жыл бұрын
It's funny because 20xx does have tap jump toggle able
@COIN_a
Жыл бұрын
As someone who has played league and tf2 for over a decade as well as csgo and overwatch since 2016, melee has the most toxic community ive ever seen and it isnt close. The worst part about it is that it pretends it is some kind of welcoming and accepting elysium of gaming that everyone can have fun in. But if you play the wrong character, the wrong playstyle, or arent good enough you will be actively denied the right to so much as play the game unless you have personal friends to play with
@saturnjr9136
Жыл бұрын
Do you play melee though, or interact with the community? I do not see any more toxicity than I do with other games. I’ve never heard of someone being denied to play the game because they are bad. Where tf did you get that idea
Agreed. If you dare pick a low tier, half the people will quit before even playing, and these people don't even have the skill to make these low tiers unviable against them.
@saturnjr9136
Жыл бұрын
@@mifaro2255 i play gnw and i dont have this problem
@COIN_a
Жыл бұрын
@@mifaro2255 I gave up on unranked months ago for this exact problem. About half of my games were people instantly leaving/closing the game during loading screen or rq'ing during the first game, usually after losing neutral or a stock. Most of the rest were 1-and-dones or people switching to their awful marths thinking it would be an autowin or make me rq
@tzarwalker6118
Жыл бұрын
For the comment from Mav, I think Leon Massey's "A Tale of Two Top Tiers" is an excellent explanation of why Fox is a good, albeit not perfect top tier for a game for the era, especially compared to Brawl or Smash 4.
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
TBF, Smash 4's current top tier was a DLC character, so it's not like that game was ALWAYS unfun to play competitively. It really only got bad after Bayonetta came out. Hell, even after they nerfed her, she was STILL too fucking broken. It took until Ultimate came out for Bayo to be nerfed AGAIN to not completely fucking stomp everyone.
@LilKiwi2240
Жыл бұрын
To be fair to the guy who said it controls like ass, its actually kinda true If you play games like Ultimate or Brawl, theres much more buffer. Which is completely fine, hitting jump and A at the same time in ultimate gives you a nice nair, but this changes in melee, since theres vietually no buffer. If you hit A and jump at the same time, you'll either just jump, or just jab, which is very jarring for ultimate players. Also techniques like wavedashing while not hard to do, when you get into doing it more than once, its really allot of muscle memory. Having played allot of melee i try to wavedash in ultimate allot to keep the muscle memory alive, so its hard to enjoy such a large part of melee when you HAVE to have muscle memory for it to really be all rojnd advantageous
@GFCOLCQuote
11 ай бұрын
"Ganon being added as a clone character ruined his moveset for the next 20 years." That's... a really harsh fact.
@Memecs20
Жыл бұрын
5:16 This is the only issue I have with Melee, I feel there's a point you can reach with the game where you'll be limited by the controller... started thinking about that when notched controllers started being a thing, then came the whole GC arms race... 13:46 I agree Fox is a glass cannon, he can do TONS of stuff but with a slight mistake a lot of damage can be taken or is a lost stock. NGL the only thing that I hate of Fox is the i-frame on shine... 16:11 Might not be the pinnacle for some but the game feel is hard to surpass even on modern itterations or mods (P+, SSBU, modded SSBU)
@Fishman465
Жыл бұрын
I feel melee players are averse to facing low tiers because they haven't read up on them And there's Clique-ness among ultimate characters (see how Steve players get treated) I think the 500hrs remark implied labbing/heavy training than having fun
@MelodyGoad
11 ай бұрын
TBF, if you suck at Melee going onto Slippi, you'll quickly find that the Slippi system ITSELF locks you out of playing with literally ANYONE, even direct matches become impossible, and it's fucking stupid.
@bladefox5082
Жыл бұрын
“I’ve checked” 😭😭
@phillipanderson7899
11 ай бұрын
Your first mistake was getting on Twitter
@pancpop1603
Жыл бұрын
Deadass the only thing preventing me from getting into Melee is tap jump, which is why I'm exploring getting a proper box controller. Can't do it and fucks me up when going back to other smash games.
@bigannoyingbanana1365
11 ай бұрын
You can turn off tap jump in slippi.
@pancpop1603
11 ай бұрын
@@bigannoyingbanana1365 For real? I'm downloading slippi right now
@bigannoyingbanana1365
11 ай бұрын
@@pancpop1603 you have to find a gecko code and enable it, but it works for Netplay
@0PercentImagination
Жыл бұрын
Outside of my PC being a potato I've always assumed some of the movement tech in melee would be too difficult for me to bother trying to learn it because I still completely fail at some of the tech in ultimate (like being able to instantly turn around and back air, especially after a grab). Though my recent acquisition of a adapter that makes my og GC controller usable again is certainly making me want to give it a try.
@Quackra
Жыл бұрын
With Ultimate using a GameCube controller itself buffs you
@NintenJoeGamer
Жыл бұрын
@@Quackra I tried using a gamecube controller... it didn't really do anything for me that my switch pro controller didn't.
@Quackra
Жыл бұрын
@@NintenJoeGamer Well, when you get to a certain point being even 1 frame of input delay worse is not good. Also, I know Pro controllers are more than that on input delay.
@NintenJoeGamer
Жыл бұрын
@@Quackra I've never noticed my pro controller having more input delay than the gamecube controller. and even if it truly is there, the fact that I don't notice it most likely means it's not big enough to be an issue.
@dknf4036
Жыл бұрын
I don't know basically anything about Ultimate but I can assure you that melee is not too difficult for you. Or anyone for that matter, if you practice and play somewhat regularly the vast majority of the movement and tech will eventually become second nature. So much of melee becomes deeply ingrained muscle memory because many things will require you to excute the same combinations of button presses and timings, thousands upon thousands of times, things that in the beginning take great effort and deep focus will eventually feel so natural you will find it hard to screw it up.
@panikk2
11 ай бұрын
bungie realized that in halo you can reload faster if you double tap Y right when the magazine hits the weapon, and they left it in. i still would consider that to be a glitch more than an advanced tech. i feel the same way about wavedashing. people aren't pulling it out of thin air to call that a glitch for decades when any non-player talks about or describes wavedashing.
@owencampbell4876
Жыл бұрын
Zen is 100% right I’ve played tons of ultimate and smash 4 and have started to play melee this year and I’ve probably got 30+ hours and I’m still struggling to do basic inputs lmao
@manguy01
Жыл бұрын
_"We noticed that it happens and taking it out wasn't a priority,"_ is a FAR cry from _"It's an intended feature."_ Now, this may surprise you, but developers ship games with glitches they _know_ are there all the time. _(L cancelling seems like it's totally an intended feature, though)_
@vOddy75
11 ай бұрын
An unforeseen application of an intended feature is not the same as an unintended glitch
@tetermc
Ай бұрын
"It genuinely feels like ass to control" I play Smash very casually and haven't played much melee outside of when I was a kid. Went to play it at my brother's house and it felt great to me. Felt so snappy and kinetic. The newer games feel far more clunky to me.
@pockets_sb4238
10 ай бұрын
Sakurai: you will have 2 buttons to jump with. If you tap up which you must do to use moves, you will also jump.
@boomknight1015
3 ай бұрын
Ultra and Melee are objectively different games in how they play. Melee you get one hit to stock in so many cases. Due to no lag to wave landing and longer hit stun. In ultra it's about trading better till you can sneak in more combos then the person you are facing. There's more room to come back. When there is 0 to death combos in Ultra, there is counters in most cases, often DI or good air dodges.
@Kirby5588
Жыл бұрын
IIRC captain falcon homerun bat is a 2 hit combo. But he still hits up instead of forward
@zfeazcesd1047
3 күн бұрын
Adding on to what Cody said.. I also think part of it is people who struggled to pick up melee looking for excuses for why it's a bad game...That reflexive "This game is dumb/stupid" a child does when rage quitting. Another factor is players who started with the later smash titles wanting to gas up their own favored smash title, people who are probably sick of hearing how fantastic of a game melee is. I saw a similar thing happen early on when starcraft 2 was released and many people entered the SC2 community who had never played SC1. People would nitpick and exaggerate about SC1's problems...interestingly enough a lot of the same critiques I read in the comments about Melee are virtually the same critiques SC2 players had about SC1....about all the "jank" and "tech skill" required to have any fun for instance.
@Ashragi
11 ай бұрын
Re:wave dash being a glitch, I think it is worth mentioning that far as I’m aware every source traces back to this guys comment if you follow it far enough and I’ve never seen anyone be able to produce the original Sakurai interview, or find any comments elsewhere where he indicated similar. Personally I think even if it IS a “glitch” it’s not an issue, I just hesitate to call it as shut a case as most people seem to.
@penguindrummer252
10 ай бұрын
Put yourself in the devs' shoes for a moment then. You put directional airdodge into place for one reason or another, how long would it take you (or ANY of your colleagues for that matter) to realise that performing a directional airdodge into the ground can and will happen? Can't be very long of course so you design a workaround and at this point they chose to make wavedashes what they are. Now if they did so cognisant of the fact that it is rife with applications in serious play is another matter entirely and unlikely if you ask me. Even if it had somehow flown by them there's QA and playtesters to do that for them not to mention that they released two later patches of melee down the line and even the latest one in PAL still has it. Can't get a better trial run than that.
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