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@klaxoncow
2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I made a comment on a Wings of Pegasus video, where he was using pitch analysis to work out whether auto-tune was being applied to a vocalist's performance - and he was comparing it to Freddie Mercury's vocals, who was infamously good at perfectly pitching his voice. And the point I made was that auto-tune - at least out of the box - will be "correcting" vocal performances to Equal Temperament. So, weirdly, what the software could well be doing is taking a perfectly pitched Just Intonation tuning... and then de-tuning it to be slightly wrong to match Equal Temperament. That auto-tune could, with the best singers, actually be making their performance worse. Adding in "beating" that actually wasn't originally there in the live performance. I mentioned this because I also noticed that - understandably so - his pitch analysis software (you can get it on Android, so I took a look for myself as well) analyses pitch in - you guessed it - Equal Temperament. So when analysing these vocal performances, you could see even the best singers seemingly being just slightly out. Being just slightly below or above the pitch lines. But, ah, this was why I commented. Was Freddie Mercury actually consistently pitching himself just shy of "correct" tuning, as per Equal Temperament, or was he, in fact, always perfectly hitting Just Intonation tuning, but because the pitch analysis software (and auto-tune, for the vocal performance he was comparing it to) is fixed to Equal Temperament, it's wrongly saying that Just Intonation is "slightly out of tune"? But, of course, the truth is that Just Intonation is "perfect" tuning, and what it's actually registering there is that Equal Temperament is the thing that's always "just slightly out of tune". But it is a mad thought - particularly with the prevalence of pitch correction / auto-tune in modern recording - that all these vocal performances are being forced to be "slightly wrong" to match Equal Temperament, when they could well have been (probably were, because, as you noted, this is how singers tune themselves, listening out for "beating") exactly on the nose in Just Intonation. That recording studios and labels are so obsessed with creating "the perfect product" that they are very possibly - with the best singers - actually degrading their live vocal performance to something worse than it actually originally was? (Except Adele. The pitch analysis software shows it - she never uses auto-tune or pitch correction. A shame, though, because probably only a singer of her quality and repute is able to carry enough clout with the record label to insist "no auto-tune". A surprising one, in the analysis by Wings of Pegasus, is that Michael Bublé - or Mickey Bubbles, as I prefer to call him - is actually pitch corrected on his albums. This is kind of weird, as the guy has done enough live performances - that are provably not corrected - to know that, no, he does not need that "assistance". But I don't know... do modern studio engineers just kind of automatically apply "auto-tune" to vocals without telling the artist? That it's now such a routine part of recording, it happens without thought to whether it's appropriate or needed to do so? Like, is Bublé even aware that they've done this to his performance? Or does he just "leave it to the engineers" and they just do it as a matter of course, out of habit, these days?)
@bernardthedisappointedowl6938
2 жыл бұрын
Top quality and thoughtful content as ever David, ^oo^
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
@@bernardthedisappointedowl6938 thanks!
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
@@klaxoncow It's unlikely to add beating unless there are multiple voices being sung at the same note with the same intonation. It's an issue in choirs because of so many people trying to sing the same note, but is less of an issue in a performance with just a single singer, and might actually fix beating that exists, particularly if the singer is doubling an instrument that is 12-tet tuned and they try to sing justly (unlikely to happen if they're singing / playing at the same time, but hey, you never know). And you seem to be assuming that just intonation is better or is "correct" when there really is no basis for assuming either of those things.
@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69
2 жыл бұрын
I love your channel thank you!
@ciarancooling3014
2 жыл бұрын
My respect for instrumentalists using non-fretted instruments just went up massively
@sharp9150
Жыл бұрын
ngl ive been playing violin for 5 years and I've never even done this conciously
@randybrown8872
Жыл бұрын
Especially confusing learning where to put your fingers but if you know your music theory, have a good ear, and practice you can figure it out.
@mihailmilev9909
Жыл бұрын
Exactly
@mihailmilev9909
Жыл бұрын
My thoughts for years
@mihailmilev9909
Жыл бұрын
But wait, wind players do this too(?)
@QuintessentialQs
2 жыл бұрын
This is why in Indian classical music, each "note" is not a specific frequency, but a range of frequencies so they can be justly intoned in different harmonic contexts.
@QuintessentialQs
2 жыл бұрын
And it's funny because obviously violin players in Western 12TET music do this instinctively. But it's not notated in any way by our musical system.
@placeholdier
2 жыл бұрын
Care to share some example of indian classical music? :)
@QuintessentialQs
2 жыл бұрын
@@placeholdier For an artist I would look to Ravi Shankar or his daughter Anoushka. But generally if you just search for raga composers, there are very many.
@eus8964
10 ай бұрын
@@placeholdier do you want instrumental or vocal? Some recommendations: Instrumental: raag bihag by Nikhil baneejee or Ravi Shankar Vocals: raga bhoop by Kishori Amonkar or raag nand by kumar gandharva. Hope this helps!
@ezion67
2 жыл бұрын
For synths and DAW use, there is Hermode tuning. A adaptive tuning system that will tune every note on the fly. Hermode might already be in your DAW as Cubase and Logic Pro both have this standard available. Some synths (e.g. older Waldorf and newer Virus models) have this build in too.
@doinky4345
2 жыл бұрын
is it cpu friendly or does it make ur pc a jet engine xd
@ezion67
2 жыл бұрын
@@doinky4345 Its just midi data. Very little cpu power needed.
@tibitoth_hu
2 жыл бұрын
@@ezion67 So does midi support microtonality? That's new to me
@ezion67
2 жыл бұрын
@@tibitoth_hu If you look up Hermode tuning there is a good explanation of how it works online. Including a in depth discussion of the algorithm behind it all. And plenty of example audio files. The original version used pitch bend messages to achieve the micro tuning. Using the Roland interpretation of "OMNI ON, MONO" mode to "fake" polyphonic pitch bend. This uses a one voice per channel setup and was intended for controlling midi synths from a midi guitar. Not sure if the modern Hermode versions build into Cubase or Logic still use the same trick. An other approach would be to manipulate micro tuning parameters on the fly using CC.
@fretnesbutke3233
2 жыл бұрын
So glad you brought up Hermode! I use it in my Logic Pro DAW. I'm a little oversensitive to Equal Temperament and I consider it a godsend. As a guitarist,I can't resist constantly tweaking the tuning depending on key..D Major drives me up the wall otherwise. The overwhelming number of alternate temperaments with software also,to accommodate ethnic instruments,is amazing. I'm sure Hermode and microtonal possibilities will be increasingly refined in the near future.
@calebeschutzerlasso5707
2 жыл бұрын
I’ve been trying to explain that to my students for years, but your video just nailed it. Thanks, David!
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
😊😊😊
@immortalmecha8770
2 жыл бұрын
Wow, the thought put into this and the amount of info crammed into this short of a video is crazy. I respect that and keep making videos because i learn so much about music because of it.
@chrishei3111
2 жыл бұрын
Right?? I watched that Jacob Collier video from the start awhile ago and I was like "Ok this guy talks in music and i cant understand" but this was MUCH easier to grasp (parts at least, still learning the basics!)
@ayoutubechannul
2 жыл бұрын
This explains why when I tune my guitar by ear and play whats sounds to me like an in tune e chord, but when playing some other chords after, my ears think a string is still out of tune. Great video!
@clipsmasterproductions7479
2 жыл бұрын
Yes, guitar is interesting in that it’s not only using an imperfect tuning, but the fret intonation is also somewhat imperfect.
@MaestroKatProductions
2 жыл бұрын
@@clipsmasterproductions7479 and that's why true temperament frets (the squiggly frets) exist lol
@HowardBaileyMusic
2 жыл бұрын
This is something that fretted instrument players just have to learn to play around. You choose your intervals to match the song (like you said "playing Am at the 5th fret") and making slight string bends to justly tune chords & solos that use more than one string. Every time you bend a string in a solo you're most likely pitching it up to a justly tuned position. It eventually becomes second nature.
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
It is rare to hear an in tune guitar, sadly. Or at least, if your ears are sensitive, you often feel guitar as the rough stuff.
@saitoyuki
2 жыл бұрын
I remember an interview with Tom Sholz of Boston, where he mentioned that he always tunes his guitar a bit flat (10 cents, I think he said) so that he can play with the temperament of the notes on the fly using finger pressure. So there are options even for fretted instruments.
@althealligator1467
2 жыл бұрын
Open strings: "You can't do this to me... YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I SACRIFICED?!"
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
That destroys open chords, and you can adjust the temperament anyways if you're playing because there is no preferred reference pitch.
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
@ghost mall yea, it does make sense if you're playing barred chords or just soloing with fretted notes or something and you want to match things both above and below equal temperament. It just seems unwieldy to me, but hey, who am I to argue with Tom Sholz? Guitar isn't even my primary instrument and he's a famous (and fantastic) guitarist!
@tbird81
2 жыл бұрын
Musicians always have BS tales like this. It's not likely to be true.
@FMEEvangelist
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting. While watching the video I was wondering if a top guitarist could adjust their finger position within a fret to affect the sound. Does this mean that they could?
@fishtail.productions
2 жыл бұрын
A song that goes from one justly intoned key to another with smooth transitions would probably sound like a Barbershop Harmony arrangement. In Barbershop Harmony we often change the chord prior to one of those awkward shifts to another key into a transitional chord or inversion so that the two sections transition easily with it all being in just intonation. This technique is often called a swipe.
@clipsmasterproductions7479
2 жыл бұрын
Wow good point
@dedemushi7824
Жыл бұрын
that's very interesting!
@polinanikulina
Жыл бұрын
I wrote of this exact concept but from my violin background.
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
Ah, that wonderful "Barber of Seville"?
@alexmann3274
2 жыл бұрын
Coming from a math background, I never fully understood why the harmonic series was called that. Now it actually makes sense
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
😃
@joseluisblanco8074
2 жыл бұрын
I'm an electrical engineer and we study harmonics in the voltage/currents (Fourier and all that stuff). I remember that in order to have even harmonics the function must be asymmetric. So if we have a tone with a fundamental and an octave higher harmonic like in the example, the sound wave form is not symmetrical. I wouldn't have expected this
@althealligator1467
2 жыл бұрын
@@joseluisblanco8074 symmetrical in what way? I just had my first day of musicology, so I'm interested
@noahsan92
2 жыл бұрын
not me thinking you meant math rock 😭
@joseluisblanco8074
2 жыл бұрын
@@althealligator1467 It means that the positive and negative parts of the sound wave (which is a pressure wave),or, equivalently, the movement of the string in a string instrument,are not symmetric about the X (0) axis..
@alexisugi9886
2 жыл бұрын
As a violinist who plays both guitar and piano, this is the video explanation I needed to help others understand the subtlety, thank you!
@lhtd
2 жыл бұрын
That last piece composed by David made me the same effect as when I'm having a conversation and suddenly we change room. The musical/conversational information is there, yet at the transition between chords/doors, it takes a very discreet and quick moment for my brain to re-adjust.
@brianmessemer3657
2 жыл бұрын
Haha great analogy. Love it. The acoustical space literally changes mid-conversation
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
Brilliant analogy because it lit. describes a mood change which can only happen through time and space.
@Veni_Vidi_Vortice
2 жыл бұрын
12TET is all well and good but the "close enough for rock 'n' roll" temperament usually works for me.
@oneirdaathnaram1376
Жыл бұрын
Dear David, Your capability of explaining complex matters in a very simple and understandable yet thorough way is just impressive. Rarely have I seen a video bringing to the point the problem of temperament as easily as that one.
@uhaowhat
2 жыл бұрын
Can I just say this is the best plugged sponsorship ever XD Great video as usual!
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks!!
@mr88cet
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! I’ve been into Microtonality since 1977, and since I recently got my Lumatone a few months ago, I’ve been (finally!) able to play in 31TET (31 equal steps per octave rather than the usual 12). It’s kinda wild for the M3 to sound rock-solid, dead-on Just, and the P5 to sound a little … unsettled. However, the 31TET P5 is ~2.5 better in-tune than 12TET’s M3, so it’s only slightly unsettled-sounding.
@rrjmdPA
2 жыл бұрын
Yet again, a truly masterfully done piece of content. I'm beginning to wonder if this is all you or you have a large staff of professors and composers coming up with these things. Truly, I don't know how you could have explained it any better - I've seen others try. Of the many channels I've seen, it dawns on me that yours is the only one where I've gone back and listened a second and third time just for the enjoyment and not because I couldn't hear, see or understand the first time round.
@kevinmartin7760
2 жыл бұрын
To further complicate things, the harmonics on a string instrument are a bit higher-pitched than the actual integer ratios due to the stiffness of the strings. Since the sensation of consonance derives at least in part from two notes having the same harmonic frequencies, this would mean that consonant notes would not necessarily have simple rational frequency ratios.
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
That’s true. It’s called Inharmonicity and makes an already impossible task even harder!
@garethevans2650
2 жыл бұрын
@@DavidBennettPiano Some early electronic keyboards had tones that were too pure to sound natural so effects like Leslie speakers or reverb were needed. Some ran them through guitar amps or effects like chorus to mimic flaws we're used to with traditional instruments. The physics of round instruments like gongs dictate that upper harmonics cannot be what Western music is used to from long thin sound generators like strings or organ pipes.
@garethevans2650
2 жыл бұрын
Yes and it changes with ratios of string width to length or how the ends are held. It's why a Ukelele has different sound to a harp and why some guitar genres tune low to sound more deathly.
@simonkormendy849
2 жыл бұрын
Not only that, but also the very act of plucking/bowing/etc a string actually makes the string go a bit sharp in tuning because the tension on the string increases a bit for a short time, and if the string-tension increases the tuning of the string goes sharp.
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
Fascinating. Interesting how few folk have got this far. I hate being as sensitive to tuning as I am and I don't even have perfect pitch..
@wellurban
2 жыл бұрын
Excellent as always: a very clear presentation of a potentially confusing subject. If I were to quibble, I’d say that the title is a bit misleading, since while one could argue that an instrument is only “in tune” if it’s in tune with itself, thus requiring just intonation, the typical use of the phrase “in tune” means to be in tune with other instruments, and hence almost always in A440 12-TET. But I know it’s a constant battle with the KZitem algorithm, so a bit of benign quasi-clickbait is understandable! It’s also questionable whether being perfectly in tune and free of beating is desirable. A single, pure, unwavering tone sounds flat and thin, so musicians, producers and sound designers use all sorts of techniques to introduce variation and richness, often through detuning: ensembles of players, double-tracking vocals, detuned analogue VCOs, chorus pedals etc. Also, while the harmonic series might be baked into mathematics, it’s not baked into the universe. It’s a simplified mathematical model of one-dimensional vibration, and works pretty well for thin plucked strings or vibrating air columns, but doesn’t quite capture the richness of many instruments. Even the bass strings of pianos are thick enough that their harmonics deviate noticeably from the integer ratios of the harmonic series, adding to the complexity that we know and love about pianos. Two and three dimensional vibrations such as those in bells and drums have highly inharmonic spectra, and I wonder whether that has led to some musical traditions (e.g. gamelan) being less obsessed with trying to fix the mathematical impossibilities of Pythagorean tuning than Western culture has been.
@gringochucha
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this interesting comment.
@Aimaiai
2 жыл бұрын
Actually, as a very seasoned guitar player myself, there are 2 ways to intonate your strings individually on a guitar, however you can only pitch up and not down. The first and most obvious way is just bending the strings but for harmonic purposes this may be much too inaccurate. The second way is one that most people dont know actually makes a difference and its something they teach you NOT to do when learning guitar, and thats pressing the frets down harder, or pressing them in different spots. If you bottom out a mid fret on the low E string it can amount to maybe a 30 cent change in pitch upwards. As well, if you slide your finger up and down a fret while playing a note, youll notice that it changes pitch up and down as well.
@stevenmqcueen7576
2 жыл бұрын
David Bennett's KZitem channel is my favorite music theory channel BY FAR, and this video is a great example of why. I have been playing and studying music for more than sixty years and thought I knew just about everything there was to know about just versus equal temperament tuning. Boy, was I wrong. I learned more about it in twenty minutes watching David than I learned over the years from dozens of music teachers and books.
@hijmestoffels5171
2 жыл бұрын
Great video, very interesting. There is a trick to play in just intonation on a guitar with an adjustable bridge for intonation. You have to shift all saddles, or the complete bridge slightly to the right (or left on a left handed guitar), so all strings, when fretted, are a bit flat. Then you can bend the string to get exactly the pitch that you want. This is only suited for playing a monophonic melody. Playing chords will hurt your ears.
@RobMods
2 жыл бұрын
I worked out equal temperament as a teenager back in the 80s. I grew up playing sax where you have to adjust constantly, but picked up guitar at 13. This was before digital tuners and you had to use your ears to find the best compromise. I also studied Bach and was introduced to the well tempered clavier, plus had a physics teacher who explained the 12th root of two!. I was truly in the right place at the right time. Understanding this has shaped my life as a musician and guitar tech. This is a great video, but also check out Howard Goodall's "big bang" episode about equal temperament. It is excellent. The piece at the end sounds so strange to our equally tempered ears. "Uncanny" is a great description. It actually made me feel slightly anxious! I wonder what JS would have made of it... Keep up the great content mate.
@glenndavid8725
2 жыл бұрын
Digital tuners were around in the 80s may have been pricey though.
@ademariojunior
2 жыл бұрын
It is the best explanation I have ever heard and seen about tuning in my life! Thank you!
@JohnCoffeeMusic
2 жыл бұрын
I am an amateur when it comes to music and your videos not only open the world of theory understandably, it also teaches me how to play songs while recognizing patterns. Thank you so much David for helping me!
@mordechaiharris1478
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you David for your videos. They are so clear and packed with information. You're a natural born teacher.
@brianmessemer2973
2 жыл бұрын
This is the perfect analogue to Andrew Huang's outstanding video on the Harmonic Series 2 years ago. Several of the specific points Andrew mentioned at the end of his discussion as things to look into further are addressed here in great style. Brilliant work David! Will be using this with my Music Theory students.
@ChrisLeeW00
2 жыл бұрын
I’m so glad more people are talking about this recently.
@unacuentadeyoutube13
2 жыл бұрын
I was trying to explain this to my friend when he asked how a speaker can reproduce every single sound of nature if it is just a bunch if metal with a magnet inside. His question was very smart actually, it's amazing how perfectly a speaker can reproduce the sound of the sea, or some birds singing,to give and example.
@kurtjuday6937
2 жыл бұрын
Perfectly reproduce the *vibrations* of the sea and birds *as we perceive them*. Speakers are amazing, but they are mechanically doing exactly what our eardrums do (in reverse). Plus speakers don't have to exactly reproduce the original vibrations, they only have to reproduce in a way that we will perceive as accurate.
@unacuentadeyoutube13
2 жыл бұрын
@@kurtjuday6937 yes, just the harmonics that make the timbre iconic
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
When you understand what sound is, it becomes a bit less amazing.
@unacuentadeyoutube13
2 жыл бұрын
@@noonehere0987 not really. I know how it works, what amazes me is that in this day and age we don't bother to realize how many incredible things we use daily
@danayang7712
2 жыл бұрын
As a trumpeter born with way too sensitive ears (no perfect pitch but I hear much more than I'm good with) and playing in one of my country's best concert bands, being trained on this every rehearsal, this explained a lot to me. I just CAN'T with keyboard-insyruments, the 3rds and 7ths are... killing me! Every rehearsal our conductor tells us to find out which function our respective tones have in the chord, and we have to adjust them to make the chord sound calm (no beating. I didn't know it was called that, thank you!!) all tones together. It's quite a job and you should be practising a lot to know exactly where the right tone is belonging to the right chord at every time, not having to adjust it after you've already started playing it. Thank you David, for explaining to me I'm not totally crazy, I'm just born that way that I can actually hear and FEEL these small differences. (They're scratching my ears and my brain in a very annoying way)
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
I’m glad you found my video helpful 😃😃
@danayang7712
2 жыл бұрын
@@DavidBennettPiano guess I won't be needing the psych ward after all! 🤣
@nettles89
2 жыл бұрын
Good video. Tuning a guitar is always an exercise in "close enough." When you get the open strings perfectly in tune according to the tuner and 12TET, try playing a bunch of spicy chords, especially up the neck, and you'll find dissonance where it doesn't belong. The tuner is only a starting point. Using octaves, natural harmonics, and relating every string to every other string, you can usually make tiny adjustments to find a point where the average ear finds all the intervals pleasing and nothing sounds noticeably off. What the tuner says at that point will vary somewhat from one instrument to the next.
@arthurgordon6072
2 жыл бұрын
I've been playing the guitar for over 50 years. When I was learning, there was no such thing as electronic tuners. One of the first lessons was how to tune your guitar by ear, by tuning, usually the 'A' string, with either a pitch pipe or tuning fork. I think it is too easy to rely on an electronic tuner.
@andersjjensen
2 жыл бұрын
True Temperament guitars are fretted to maintain 12TET down to the 24th fret. In exchange for that you get a guitar that looks like the frets are made out of random twigs you found on the forest floor :P
@davidbstang116
2 жыл бұрын
That's why it's important to adjust the neck and the bridge height so that the string-to-fret distance is according to specification. If the strings are too far away from the fretboard, when you press a string down the speaking length of the string, therefore the pitch, is a little bit off, and it gets worse the higher up on the fretboard you go. I have a cheap student electric guitar and it was amazing how much better it sounded after I adjusted the neck tension just a little bit.
@nettles89
2 жыл бұрын
@@davidbstang116 Well, yeah. But that’s only part of the equation. What you found is that a proper set-up will make it much easier to achieve “close enough.”
@davidbstang116
2 жыл бұрын
👍
@rarebeeph1783
Жыл бұрын
2:15 actually, a glass being dinged with a spoon is very likely to have some significant inharmonic overtones. generally, 1-dimensional systems like air columns and strings resonate harmonically, while 2-dimensional systems like cymbals, plates, or glasses resonate at least partially in non-integer ratios. but we're usually not doing harmony on a drum kit.
@coachsteve.
2 жыл бұрын
For your song at the end, I assume the best thing to do would be to slowly change the intonation rather than adjusting it abruptly. (similar to Collier's half-sharp movement) Also, check out Anna Von Hausswolff's album All Thoughts Fly which was all done on a 1/4 comma mean tone organ.
@lxathu
2 жыл бұрын
The "strange" chord changes in the sample piece meant beautifully spiced strangeness to my ears. Pretty satisfying.
@MomusFilms
2 жыл бұрын
Really nice composition there at the end, David.
@crosstownsound
2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I've been using sweetened tuning on my acoustic guitar in studio recording for some time. I'll do multiple takes where each take favours a couple of chords that sound best, with the others sounding okay but a little off. Then repeat as necessary where another set of chords sound best. After all the takes are done, I'll comp together all the best bits where chords sound the best. The key is making sure one is really consistent with the rhythm of each take. I tried explaining this to my band mates who didn't really hear it at first (it drove me nuts hearing certain chords sounding out); this video is the best explanation I've seen! Cheers! 😃 👍
@ChristianGonzMusic
Жыл бұрын
I gotta say I’ve been binge watching your videos which is crazy since I’ve always hated trying to learn music theory as a self taught guitarist. You’ve really made appreciating music theory possible, thank you for the outstanding content!
@dancoroian1
Жыл бұрын
One interesting aspect of the beating phenomenon is that it doesn't actually rely on physical interference between the two waves -- that is, if you stick one of the pitches in JUST one ear and another pitch in the other ear, the beating will emerge strictly in *your brain* (termed a "binaural beat")
@80sMeavyHetal
2 жыл бұрын
The piece at the end is absolutely mesmerising, love it!
@chordplex6275
Жыл бұрын
I was fascinated by this topic as a student of electrical engineering and music theory in college in the 80s. I've been programming synths as a hobby since then, on everything from 8086 PCs to modern DSPs. I've also programmed tuners, including piano tuners. If you take a step or two into the topic of temperament, you tend to be dissatisfied with limitations of fixed tuning and look for the purity of perfectly just tuned intervals. This will often lead one to believe that there is some kind of mystical magic that happens when you adhere perfectly to Pythagorean integer ratios of frequencies. As you approach that, some very interesting and psycho-acoustically potent things happen. This has been demonstrated beautifully by Jacob Collier and others. But digitally, you CAN make it absolutely perfect. When you do, you find that it sounds awful. This isn't because there's a mystical optimal very close but not exactly at integer ratios of frequencies. It's something else. 1. We don't experience musical frequencies in time. Our brains don't work that fast. We experience them in a one-dimensional space on the sensor element in our ear, the cochlea, in a way that's similar to the way we perceive light on the two-dimensional space of the retina. We can hear a tone going on and off about as fast as we can see a light flashing on and off. 2. When sound is produced by playing a single note with a real physical device such as a string, vocal cord or bell for example, the overtones are not at exact multiples of the fundamental. The harmonics of a single note on the best piano you can buy are out of tune with one another. In the case of a string, the shorter and fatter it is, the more pronounced this phenomenon becomes. 3. The pitch of the fundamental and overtones of a note played on a physical instrument typically depend fairly strongly on how loudly the note is played. This can be seen easily when tuning the low strings on a guitar using a strobe tuner or something similar. Generally, the louder, the sharper. 4. Beating occurs when two tones (i.e., overtones) with nearly equal but different frequencies are sounded. Since the overtones of a single note don't overlap with the fundamental or with one another, beats don't result from the overtones being out of tune relative to the fundamental. Harmonics that are out of tune, within reason, don't sound dissonant if there are no other harmonics from other notes or instruments being generated near that frequency. There is nothing for them to compete with or beat against. 5. When tuning a 12-string guitar, perfectly matching the frequencies of each of the string pairs will make it sound like a six string. Very slightly detuning them accentuates the richness, complexity and presence of the tone. It also increases sustain. Detuning them further makes it sound like a honkytonk piano. The key point: It's not the mathematical purity of just tuned harmony that makes it sound good. Although there's more to it, the way the overlapping tones/overtones from various notes, voices and instruments DANCE WITH ONE ANOTHER (interact with one another) produces much of the "harmoniousness" of a given harmony. If overtones are doing exactly the same thing (sounding at exactly the same frequency), they're not dancing, they're just speaking redundantly. When tones/overtones interact independently, with their own identity and information content, at slightly different frequencies, the brain's spatial interpretive mechanisms are engaged in ways that might not necessarily be perceived as position or motion in three-dimensional space but involve the activation of neural pathways used to interpret the physical/spatial presence of a sound source. In my view, we should understand this spectral dance of harmony in a quantitative way and design digital instruments to expressively exploit this understanding. This, I think, will lead to music that is liberated from the 12-tone scale yet even more richly harmonious with a broader range of chord structures, music that can be designed/composed in a purely mathematical sense, rather than being derived from the limited framework offered by mechanical contraptions and their legacy.
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
Wow, extraordinary. What you say about harmony needing to dance makes SUCH sense. If it isn't dancing then, it actually feels dead; there is no musical conversation. Thank you SO much for your detailed and helpful response. We use Music to harmonise the soul (our ego) and so we naturally avoid unharmonious sounds because they fail to liberate the ego from an inner state of ego-dissonance. The ego is initially bodily, hence dance (or any human movement in response) is our 1st reaction to music in its role as soul-therapy. Music is temporal which means it must celebrate harmony as a life (not death) force. Harmonious perfection equals death. You can however so see why the so-called "perfect" intervals extensively used in late medieval polyphony, actually feel more joyously alive than a ghastly (ego upsetting) 3rd?
@oliverpeters7485
2 ай бұрын
Thank you very much for this brilliant video. Just to add a little layer as to the tuning of pianos: the higher notes are also a bit “spread” to increase the brilliance of the sound. So one really understands that the “right” tuning of a piano is really an art.
@victorkalmov7291
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for shedding the light on one of the most fundamental and interesting topic of music theory and history! Awaiting impatiently for other temperaments! And please, more audio examples are desired 👍
@Vanguardsman
2 жыл бұрын
Maybe there should be some kind of least-squares technology where you stick in the sheet music and it optimizes the temperament.
@flamencoprof
5 ай бұрын
I wish I could have linked to this when I saw a YT vid about how to choose the right guitar strings to prevent the G being out of tune. I knew this was a misconception, and my Comment about how tuning strings by harmonics, i.e. Justly, and tuning strings by fretting, will always come to a clash at the G/B 4-fret non-just interval. I got a bigger-than-usual response to one of my comments, mostly positive.
@KerryLiv
8 ай бұрын
As a guitarist, a huge thank you for sharing your knowledge and talents with the musical community. This explains why slight note bends and dips on fretted instruments can sound much more tastful
@pXnTilde
2 жыл бұрын
That piece at the end sounds incredible. Maybe you could do a half tuning on the awkward transitions
@MandrakeGuy
2 жыл бұрын
actually, i and some others, including Sevish, have started saying "ed2" instead of "tet" or "edo", and the reason for that is because you can replace "2" with any other interval, "2" refers to octave in this case so "12ed2" would translate to "12 equal divisions of the octave", this format actually really helps with tunings like wendy carlos tunings that are based on the fifth, wendy carlos alpha would be refered to as 9ed3/2, bohlen pierce would be 13ed3! however, "tet" also works too, but i think its important to also bring up "edo" and "ed2" as some of us who create microtonal songs use other acronyms and names for "divisions of the octave". great video by the way! speaking of tonality, you could try and find some tracks using different tuning systems and such, not just microtonality, but tuning systems distant from 12ed2, for example desert island rain by Sevish uses a completely different scale not possible in 12ed2, although im sure it'd be pretty difficult finding other examples that arent electronic... 😅
@AtomizedSound
2 жыл бұрын
I wonder how a person with perfect pitch deals with the different tuning systems? Does it drive them crazy if they hear one over the other being accustomed to one system their whole life? That would be an interesting deep dive video
@althealligator1467
2 жыл бұрын
@ghost mall perfect pitch isn't relative to any tuning, but the absolute pitch (frequency) of each note. If you meet a person with perfect pitch in the Western World and ask them to sing a G for example, they'll probably sing an equal tempered G. Their perfect pitch isn't based on 12TET, but they learned the note _names_ according to 12TET. They'll still be better than you at just intonation though lol
@bbyng7316
Жыл бұрын
You don't need to have perfect pitch to get rattled by off tuning. Otherwise, why are the rest of us listening to this video (sorry, for me, you tube is only for listening to) ?
@theharvardyard2356
2 жыл бұрын
Could be interesting to address guitars with attempted "improved temperament" like true temperament frets in your next video. Might be outside the scope but could be interesting
@willemfeltkamp5314
2 жыл бұрын
These frets merely approach 12 TET tuning better, so they have the same problem that piano’s and other fixed pitch instruments have, as explained in this video
@theharvardyard2356
2 жыл бұрын
@@willemfeltkamp5314 "better" how? I've never had it expanded to me in a clear way that wasn't just marketing
@aDifferentJT
2 жыл бұрын
I wonder if you could use something like pitch correction software to identify the chord being played and fix the tuning not to 12TET but to Just Intonation. It should be fairly straightforward to write a simple synth that does that, I might give it a go.
@moi01887
2 жыл бұрын
I've been curious about that too! I think in order for it to work, the software would have to identify the tonic note of the chord... which in many cases would be easy, but at times could be tricky.
@althealligator1467
2 жыл бұрын
@@moi01887 there would be several ways to do it, though, because the root note of each chord could be tuned differently depending on prior harmonic context. And then what about inversions? The root note wouldn't necessarily be the most important. There would be really no "correct" tuning.
@althealligator1467
2 жыл бұрын
People already do this manually. Watch Adam Neely's video on 7 Levels of Jazz Harmony, level 7 is just that. As cool as the idea is, it doesn't really sound good (you can still like it of course), as the simplicity of the overall tuning and the consistency of each note are sacrificed, so it sounds all over the place, and, oddly enough, out of tune; the thing with music is that context matters, which is why resolutions from dissonant to consonant intervals and music as a whole even work in the first place. You remember the pitches that came before, so justly intonating each chord this way makes each chord sound disconnected, out of tune. 12TET really is the single best compromise for tuning, specifically because it's even. Edit: Or the piece at the end of the video
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
Good luck dealing with inversions and chord extensions. Just intonation is nice for creating pleasing intervals in reference to a single note, but is in no way a musical system capable of dealing with the types of things done in western music.
@goodlookingcorpse
2 жыл бұрын
Apparently that's a thing, called Hermode Tuning.
@thecsslife
11 ай бұрын
This has blown my mind any you explain these highly complex ideas so clearly, thank you!
@DanWorrall
2 жыл бұрын
Good video. Can I share a tip? Microtonal tuning differences are much easier to hear with raw sawtooth waves than with a piano sound. Just thought I'd mention it...
@Janosik5814
Жыл бұрын
I'm a pedal steel guitar player and have two tunings I use depending on which guitar I'm playing. The first tuning is just intonation for my Emmons Original Push Pull. Each string and pedal is adjusted using Hz, ie 445, 430. The second tuning is a slightly modified version of the 12 tone standard with some changes adjusted by +/- a few cents and I use it on my modern Mullens all pull guitar. I'm always at odds with the guitar player over who's out of tune. I found the best way to resolve it is to make sure we're not both playing in the same range. An octave makes all the difference in the world.
@altviooltom
2 жыл бұрын
Well illustrated, excellent video!
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!!
@PeterKharitonov
2 жыл бұрын
David, thank you very much for such a great video! To put all the necessary information about TET and reasons for its implementation in a such concise and straight to the point manner is a super great work! I wish I could give 10 likes to this video!
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Peter!
@headlessnotahorseman
2 жыл бұрын
"I will be doing a video on historical temperaments in the future" Time traveller confirmed! No wonder he looks so young.
@vtechk
2 жыл бұрын
I experimented with temperament methods a few years ago, while developing a synth based on a very small 8bit chip and what worked quite well for me was using just fifths and octaves to get all the coefficients. A1 *3 => E2 /2 => E1 *3 => B2 /2 => B1 *3 => F#2 ... and so on. (The chip couldn't multiple nor divide and *3 /2 can be done easily using binary shifts). Nice video anyway.
@davidbstang116
2 жыл бұрын
Another brilliant video. Thanks! When I attempt to explain this stuff to a friend or customer (I'm a piano tuner/technician) they usually just get even more confused. ... An interesting followup might be about how a piano tuner tunes by ear. It's all about hearing the beats where the partials of two notes should coincide but they don't. Tuners use those beat speeds of all the intervals to arrive at equal temperament. To make things more complicated, piano strings are not perfectly harmonic and the tuner needs to compensate for that, which makes a piano even more "out of tune"!
@johnf991
2 жыл бұрын
I might be late mentioning this, not having read through all the comments, but I recommend doing a KZitem search for micro-fretted guitars, ie a small fret for each string in the right position for just intonation. The comparisons with TET are very obvious. The same guy also uses elastic bands as frets which he can move slightly to create just tuning but only in a given key or two. As I became a more experience guitar player (nearly 70 now) I became more and more intolerant of the consequences of using either conventional tuning from the fifth fret (fourth G to B) or electronic tuners. The guitar tech at Hank's guitar shop in Denmark St, London, told me his secret about 30 years ago. It is to tune from the D, 12th fret harmonic to the B, third fret. You then do a sequence of 5th to 7th fret tuning, but adjust the A to D relationship so that the A is slightly flat with a slow beat of maybe four beats a second. That usually gets you into a far better compromise tuning than any other I've come across. Anyone got any others? The clip of Voces8 reminds me that during lockdown, their second tenor, Blake, did a very good live-stream talking about all of this with examples of a capella singing where a clear beat could be heard through TETish tuning or, when you get everyone properly in tune, all the other harmonics are prompted and clear notes, not being sung, ring out. Fantastic. Sorry to ramble on - this stuff interests me!! Great channel, David.
@T_hatsil
3 ай бұрын
maybe you could have a piano which consists of 12 "sub-piano", each one correlating to a different just intonation version of all of the major keys, so you could play pieces in just intonation live
@dooleyfan
2 жыл бұрын
This was very educational. I’ve been playing guitar for 40 years, and you may have just explained why I always find my guitar is out of tune after tuning it. For the last 20 years or so, I have used a digital or pedal tuner, then play an open “cowboy” D chord, then adjust the G B E strings by ear until it sounds good.
@wilyae
2 жыл бұрын
Don't know if he talked about this in the video. But sitars are actually tuned in just intonation since they're tuned and played in a certain key
@gilbertocruz1683
7 ай бұрын
That's a very good explanation...it's said Bach had his own temperament since he didn't like the 12TET dissonances
@joelinpa185
Жыл бұрын
I was familiar with this content, but David, your explanation is a brilliant, college-level presentation. Bravo!
@aarong5716
2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I always wondered to what extent violinists, vocalists, etc used just intonation. One thing I'll add is, during guitar solos, it's amazingly common to hit a major-3rd double stop on the G+B strings and then bend the lower note up slightly. It was a huge revelation to me when I realized this was effectively achieving just intonation on the fly.
@lets_measure_it
Жыл бұрын
slide players will often angle the slide to slightly lower the b string note to achieve the same result
@alantaylor2694
2 жыл бұрын
I play the piano and I come from the good ol' Amiga days when I was using OctaMED and playing all the great melodies from my favourite games (Turrican II, Impossamole, Shadow of the Beast, Lotus Esprite Turbo Challenge 2) on the computer keyboard For me, mentally, playing the piano is just pressing the right buttons at the right time. An easy mental barrier to get over. After watching your video it has cemented my opinion that the Violin is the hardest instrument to learn/play. Fascinating vid and I've really starting to enjoy your compositions at the end. Thank you.
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
Eh, violin's not so hard. I'd say a trumpet is considerably harder.
@clownpocket
2 жыл бұрын
@@noonehere0987 Definitely seems harder to use your face to blow a raspberry through a brass tube.
@STERNWAERTS
2 жыл бұрын
as a guitar player whose ears are getting better and better there is nothing more frustrating than being able to tune the guitar by ear via fifths and fourths just to be smacked in the face by the first major third that rings out. worst is the low C and E together when fretting a basic C Major chord. and of course the g string never gets and keeps in tune. i should really move over to drums
@flamencoprof
5 ай бұрын
Wow! Things here I had not thought of WRT to unfretted strings. Thanks heaps!
@sundownsigns
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the explanation. I've been trying to get my head around this for years.
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
😃
@Yotun12345
2 жыл бұрын
Voces8 right in the middle! Absolutely love them
@ChasMusic
2 жыл бұрын
I thought I knew this but you brought a whole new depth to this topic. That said, I sometimes have a hard time hearing the difference.
@nisgotthardsen581
2 жыл бұрын
What a wonderful day, I learned something new. Thank you🙂
@M22W
2 жыл бұрын
The amount of chune and chuning in this video is mindboggling for me as a non-english speaker
@adriankolsters
2 жыл бұрын
Just amazing David, how you do these difficult music theory items. You knowledge on this is fenomenal. I have come to understand a lot more since watching your videos because you explain things so well with great musical examples. Perfect teacher.
@stephenpeterson7570
2 жыл бұрын
Phenomenal
@adriankolsters
2 жыл бұрын
@@stephenpeterson7570 yeah thanks, trying to juggle between 4 languages
@niveketihw1897
2 жыл бұрын
Interesting. I remember this from the iceberg. I remember reading a long LONG time ago that Robert Smith of The Cure tuned his high E string slightly flat because it "just sounds better." I did that for a long time myself (from like 1992 to the early 2000s).
@spykerm6
Жыл бұрын
I know nothing about music but the two intervals shown at the beginning are the sound of a 5 cylinder Audi engine (perfect 5th) and a car honk with two horns (major 3rd)
@zzzaphod8507
2 жыл бұрын
Great video, especially cool to see the violinist adjust the finger position depending on context.
@Mrbeahz1
Жыл бұрын
Just about the the best video I've seen on this topic.
@peterkortvel
8 ай бұрын
Finally a great video on this. Listening to the song in the end the changes of chords sounded quite off even of the notes sounded great together. How is it then possible that the different chords are used in a scale if the actually dont perfectly fit it?
@godzilla964
Жыл бұрын
I bought a tuner from a company called Cherub. It has a feature called compensated tuning where you tune the strings slighy flat. This helps the initial attack in tune and not the decay. It's really useful for acoustic guitars. I wouldn't recommend it for electric guitars because they are more in tune than acoustic guitars because of intonation.
@vinylhead9938
Жыл бұрын
Exactly the same say as human eye has an automatic White Balance (for instance, in a poorly lit room you percieve a piece of white paper as white, because you know it's white, although the camera "sees" it as yellow), human ear adjusts for small discrepancies present in 12 TET, PROVIDED these discrepancies are constant and don't change overtime. When the note stops playing, you can still hear it in your head for some time, and when the tuning is changed "on the fly", the newly adjusted note starts to clash with the one I can still hear ringing in my my head from the previous bar.
@batterieman3001
2 жыл бұрын
nobody: David: it's out of chOON
@kramoogle
Жыл бұрын
loved the colours of your composition 😄
@urilevy1
2 жыл бұрын
David is an incredible teacher
@Hartlor_Tayley
2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this video. I’ve been telling people this for decades but they dont believe me.
@pepe6666
Жыл бұрын
thank you very much for this information. i found this out the hard way by computing harmonics of instruments and comparing it to notes. i was losing my mind because the ratios of chords were being ever so slightly off. i now know what its all about thanks to this video. thank you greatly. much appreciated.
2 жыл бұрын
This is actually a very important thing for drone-based Instruments like Bagpipes and Hurdy-Gurdies. Normally they are tuned to just intonation, so they are perfectly in tune to the base note (the drone). For bagpipes you tune the drone to the base note of the chanter by listening to the beating and reducing it to a minimum. For players playing along with other instruments in equal temperament, these instruments are often tuned to a mixture between both temperaments, so keeping the nice fifth, but adjusting the third, and so on. But hearing an instrument in just intonation is such a nice sound.
@ivodevries8414
Жыл бұрын
Best explenation on this topic on KZitem! Took me a while to find it, but glad that I did 👌👏
@TontonPanda
2 жыл бұрын
very well explained, thanks! I like the fact that you show perfect tuning as a physical rule only. it's an artistical choice to tune or tempere your instruments, knowing how physic works is just an inspiration and better understanding
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
Glad it was helpful!
@typetersen8809
2 жыл бұрын
Good video, David. Thank you. The tuning using Equal Temperament has always been a system of "acceptable compromise"..... As you say, you cannot have anything PERFECTLY in tune in an overall (as in the 12 Major/minor Keys) octave compass with 3rds/5ths/6ths/4ths & 8ths each sounding as pleasant as they ought. One observation I have....it would be nice if you either accurately portrayed the notated pitch which you sounded 🎼 OR, move your keyboard position down one octave. 🎹
@jimluket
2 жыл бұрын
Fascinating and well explained.
@DavidBennettPiano
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you 😃
@ianwynne764
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you David. You are a mine of information. Stay well and safe.
@fxaarchable
2 жыл бұрын
Great thoughtful video. One point, while the guitar is ostensibly fixed tuned the fact is you can raise the pitch by pressing harder or bending the string up. I have noticed when I tune intended to err on the flat side a couple of cents allowing compensation up as context demands.
@MobiusBandwidth
2 жыл бұрын
close enough for Jazz. (something one of my Berklee teachers used to say when we were tuning up.)
@misterguy9051
Жыл бұрын
Nowadays, it is quite easy to fine tune our synths for each given tune we do. Depending on the synth/vst, this means importing scala files and such, or even tuning the divisions of the octave "by hand" to optimise the "justness" of our chords. (I personnaly like to start with Werckmeister III and tweak it depending on the chords I use for a given song.. ) Thanks maestro for this video. And I will surely try Entonal Studio!!!!!
@valle2601
2 жыл бұрын
You can bend the notes on the giuitar or add vibrato in a way that with practice and skill will probably make it possible to use just intonation with guitar. But yea that would be insanely dificult
@TamDNB
2 жыл бұрын
best explanation of this topic I've come across, thanks David
@garethevans2650
2 жыл бұрын
Guitar players are able to adjust pitch real time by how they push/pull the neck or bend strings. Floyd's Gilmour talks about him bending notes a little almost all the time. You can do that a bit on a bass guitar too (or use chorus effect) and its one reason fretless is nicer for jazz as venue provided pianos are often a bit out of tune.
@noonehere0987
2 жыл бұрын
Sort of. You cannot bend a pitch to be lower, so you're either tuning your guitar low and get rid of your ability to play open notes in tune and then pitch bending or pushing harder, or you're only capable of adjusting where you need to raise the pitch.
@garethevans2650
2 жыл бұрын
@@noonehere0987 actually you can go flat by pushing the neck of a guitar or a bass. It's a nice trick if you're playing harmonics. We're talking cents of pitch here not whammy bar dives.
@bj.bruner
Ай бұрын
I would argue that wind instruments in general aren't entirely bound to 12TET; brass instruments (especially trumpets, cornets, flugelhorns, etc.) can change the length of their tubing to make it longer or shorter and thus make it a few cents sharper or flatter; and all winds can adjust their embouchure to change their tuning by a few cents
@kitko33
2 жыл бұрын
In my first band, in my first studio session, I would adjust tuning on my guitar for specific parts in songs. I came up with the idea and our sound engineer told me it's an age old practice. It's just a natural thing to do.
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